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The podcast where relentless curiosity meets leadership transformation.
Hosted by Tyler Chisholm—entrepreneur, CEO, and lifelong learner—Curious as Hell is the go-to podcast for leaders, innovators, and trailblazers who believe that asking the right questions can unlock new possibilities in business and life.
In each episode, Tyler sits down with top executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders to explore how curiosity fuels innovation, builds stronger teams, and drives personal growth. Whether it's uncovering the leadership strategies behind top-performing companies, unpacking the mindset shifts that foster resilience, or challenging conventional wisdom, Curious as Hell delivers actionable insights that help you lead with confidence and creativity.
If you're a growth-minded leader looking for fresh perspectives, practical strategies, and inspiring conversations that push boundaries, then you're in the right place.
Hello and welcome to Curious as Hell, a podcast about leading and growing in today's world. I'm your host Tyler Chisholm and I'm excited as I always am to be sitting here with my guest today, Mr. Jason Krauss. How you doing, Jason?
I'm doing great, Tyler. It's great to be here.
It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you, my friend. I've had the privilege of knowing you, working with you, getting to know you over the years. And for anyone who's been watching the season so far, they can start here if they want. But if they've been on the journey with us, we've had different leaders in, we've talked about startup, we've talked about scale up, we've talked about running some of the largest companies in Canada, but you have an incredibly interesting perspective, from my point of view, of being a coach to many of these types of leaders across all gamuts of industry.
since 2010. So maybe give us a little bit of the journey because you run your own company. You have a very high performance athletics background, but you were kind of executive coaching before executive coaching was cool. Is that a fair thing to say?
I don't know if was executive coaching before it was cool, but I was, I think it was definitely in the earlier days of executive coaching. Yeah. And, and so starting working with many different leaders at different levels then through over the years, really focusing on more high stakes CEO, senior leadership, founder, et cetera, in helping them navigate that never ending mystery.
Never ending mystery. You went, again, I know you, this is the beauty of these podcasts. I'll also get to know your story. Did you go right from high-performance athletics into coaching? Like, was there a transition and thinking about kind of even your own journey of maybe the filter you used as an athlete as that's evolved as you also became a business owner?
Yeah, well, it's fascinating when I think about the events that led me to coaching. You see, one of the gifts of being a national team athlete, when you're a funded athlete, you get a year of tuition for every year you're a funded athlete. cool. didn't know that. And so when I retired from sport, you know, I had studied some business, but then I was like, OK, what do I really want to do post sport? And at the time, there was a continuing education program through the UFC that was a coaching certification.
I thought, that sounds fascinating. I don't know if this is what I want to do, but it seems like skills. You were curious. I was curious. And so I stepped, I put, I put some of the, some of the credits towards the certification and I remember stepping into the program after the first day I went, holy shit.
I have never looked at relationships the same way. have never experienced connection like this. In fact, I just spent half a day with a complete stranger and I have never felt more seen in my life.
And so I continued down this path, fully bought in around the impact I could create with people, with the right skills, the right process, but simply just giving the gift of presence and curiosity.
love that. So my brain would have thought that younger individual that you were at that time came in because I'm going to help people do this, help people do that. for you, went right to the, I'm going to say soft side. I'm going to say that with an asterisks on it. Cause I think the soft side is pretty, is pretty tangible when you walk into it, but that was your driver right away and you caught that.
I did in that bug. I caught that bug. And, and really when you see it happening in that first laboratory environment, when you're learning those skills that when I asked the right questions and step alongside people on this journey, not because I've been there or based on my expertise, what we can unlock together.
How, talk to me about that a little bit. You were dealing with people that were running businesses that you'd never run before. I like what you said, not because of your expertise, but because I could walk alongside them. And I think that's powerful and we'll get into it in a minute, but so many leaders get into positions because of their expertise and maybe they forget to walk alongside their team, but we'll touch on that. How was that for you in the early days when that credibility, that imposter syndrome, that like, well, I've never run a 500 person company, but I can go with you on your journey and I have the tools and the ways of coaching.
to help you be better even though I've not been there.
Yeah, well, I think that is the asset. Because you think of so many, you're the CEO, and you have everyone around you that is wondering, how do I communicate? What's my position? But in the end, you can't help but everything revolve around shareholder value, promotion, important aspects of the business. But you get someone like me beside you.
where I'm committed to nothing else but to peel back the layer of truth around how you see your world. I'm not tied to shareholder value. I don't have to impress you. I am perhaps the only person in your world that can ask the stupidest question that nobody else has the right to ask.
It's just simply too risky for them.
That's it. It's too risky. And so how many times have I been in a high risk situation and I ask the simplest question that turns out to be the most important question that this person's been asked? So many times.
For those individuals that now or even then that you engage with, what's often the impetus? Is it the, feel alone, I feel isolated, leadership can be very isolating. It can be like, I need to conquer XYZ thing, because it's almost a batch. I need to get to the next level of my performance. I need to work with a coach to get there. Do they realize going in or do they seek out that coach to get that objective layer? Or is it often a specific.
task or a list of things, a thing they just need to get better at, which I'm guessing probably starts to unfold once they're in the door, but how does it normally start?
Well, I'll tell you, there are generally three reasons people come for coaching. One is the mandated one. It's either board mandated or CEO mandated that I want you to get coaching. Yeah, because of it. And it could be many things because of poor performance, because we want to unlock a new level. Those reasons can vary.
because of
but mandated is one entry point. Not always the best, oftentimes never the best. So that's one. The second one is hungry and proactive.
Yeah, where I'm already doing really well, but I want to find what's my edge. Again, it's something I say to leaders frequently. The leader with the least blind spots wins. So why wouldn't you position yourself with truth tellers and thought partners that can help shed light onto some of those blind spots? And then there's the last one.
That one gets me right in the feels.
A nightmare has woken them up.
where now it's more scramble mode, it's more pain driven. And the nightmare could be something significant that has disrupted the business, or it can be something like I never realized how isolated I am, and I'm starting to lose confidence, I'm starting to experience all of those things when that isolation compounds. But nightmare is one.
proactive or mandated generally fits into one of those three buckets.
Mandated, can be the most challenging. The other two, does they kind of have equal weighting? I'm putting them on a scale for the sake of the conversation. a nightmare can really change a birth of, what is it they say, a birth, a death, and a tragedy are the three things that can change the trajectory of your life. Performance oriented, I've always been performance oriented probably, and this is just a new thing I'm choosing to execute on. But the nightmare one, the nightmare scenario, like when self-awareness, when someone just holds a full-length mirror in front of you and forces you to stare at it.
That can be very scary, but it also can be very motivating. What have you found?
Yeah, it's it's often when that window of dissatisfaction is widest, right? Where where your humility, your willingness can be its strongest.
So I would say that that is a very rich space and it's often one where we're really unpacking deep things like identity. The truths that we thought were real for us. Yeah, which is rich and important work. And the difference is that the nightmare entry point gets you into some of that real deep work where sometimes the proactive pieces can start as more
shattering of the story.
methods. do I, how do I version? right. That's right. Not to say that we can't get into some of that rich deep work.
Teach me another tool, the toolkit.
Where do you see the balance for leaders? I have a firm believer that you could just talk about self-curiosity, self-awareness, all the selves that come under that, and that would be a doorway forward, but it often gets entered of like, teach me a new way of running a meeting, teach me a better way to connect. Like they're almost service layer, they're tactics. How do you then juggle that balance with the leaders? Like, no, no, I just need to learn how to have a better conversation. Maybe you need to learn how you're showing up first, or is that one and the same?
Well, I think one of the reasons why I like to start with a 360 is let's see what your audience, how they experience you. that, well, it can be very telling to see how defensive a leader gets if they justify their behavior. If your audience is having some significant challenges with the way you show up and you're not able to really shine a spotlight on it and ask yourself,
That can be very telling.
Is this how I want to show up? Is this do my intentions match the impact that I'm having? Sometimes they will because I tell you what, there's an important word and that is unapologetic. Look at the highest levels of leadership or in fact, probably any level of leadership, you are going to disappoint people. And so the level of clarity that you have around what you're okay reading, if you're going to assume people
will complain about you. Then what are you okay with reading?
you
Do find most leaders have been conscious at that or has it just been more of a evolution and experience the higher the role, the more the arrows in your back, that type of scenario?
I think there can be some level of clarity, but I also think that some level of clarity. But where we need to get to is a level of confidence so that you know in the next time you run a 360 to truly be okay with understanding that if I value performance or if we say feedback is important here and therefore this is how I show up as a leader,
then understand that my commitment to your growth means that many people will be uncomfortable. In fact, some people might even say it's not safe.
But as a leader, what am I most committed? Am I committed to being liked, to getting a great review, or to facilitating growth?
connection to what I'm okay with, how much of that ties to the corporate mission, the corporate vision, the line that's being towed by the leadership team versus the balance of what that individual's okay or not okay with as a human being.
Well, I think what you're getting to are important conversations executive teams need to have around if we say this is our value, then what does it mean under fire?
on a Tuesday at 10 when things are going sideways.
That's right. We can say we value integrity, but let's really challenge that. When is our integrity going to get tested?
And when it does, how do we act?
How many teams have these conversations? Not many.
Is it everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face?
That's right. it's ignorant for us to think that our values won't get tested. And so we don't have these conversations, but guess what? They get tested. And then at its worst, we compromise our values. And everyone knows it in the organization. And then they become stories. then we go, that's it. And we go, how did our culture get here?
the quiet compromises.
How did we wake up this way? A series of small. Is that creating space, taking time? Is that creating the safety to even have those conversations? Does it start with someone on the leadership team, ultimately maybe the leader setting that tone in the room? Because this is how things get done around here and this is not how things get done around here. Those are often generational biases, especially if we're talking about longstanding organizations. Well, they are.
That's right.
But what we're talking about is in sport, one of the greatest lessons from being a bobsled driver for eight years was that subtle is significant. Ooh.
so often, whether it's coaching, whether it's, you know, working with a leadership team, we can get seduced into thinking that there are silver bullets. But it's always the subtle but significant. So what are the what are the next level conversations? You you talk about curiosity. If you want a high performing team, ask high performing questions. If you want a cohesive and aligned executive team, then
do the subtle things that make a significant difference. We can focus on strategy. We can unpack our tactics. But what are the uncommon conversations we're going to have as a group that most teams won't? That's what's going to differentiate us. And it's question, they're discussions like this.
If not working with a coach like you, there's many great coaches out there that have had the privilege of getting to know, where does that come from? Where does that understates it? In eight, does some leaders just lean in in that area? Like there's learned and then there's unlearned. There's behaviors that I picked up. I've known a lot of people that have been through a lot of leadership and management programs and I see them show up with a lot of tactics on our processes and procedures, but not always the nuance that you just talked about.
in a world today and I believe in it. So I hear you and I'm like, this resonates with me. But there's many a boardroom and many a group setting where this would be foreign if almost looked at as like you let a virus into the room. How do you balance that out?
Well, I did bring a virus into the room. yes, if you understand that we're all super spreaders, then the question is, what do I want to be spreading? Is this a virus that's going to create critical momentum towards what we're here to do? Or is it a virus that's going to create cancerous downward spiral that creates drift in the organization?
Superspreader.
intention.
This is where subtle is significant. These subtle discussions that are very intentional, that forecast some of the friction. Like, where would we compromise our values? And I'm not asking you if we will, because anytime you ask, hey, do you think we'll compromise our values? What's going to happen?
No, no, no, those are, see they're written on the wall or they're in a binder.
That's right. we go, good. We've had the discussion. But here's a subtle but significant question that changes it. Tyler, what might we do that would compromise integrity?
Now, now this is where you get uncomfortable. Your urge is to say, I don't think we will. And I go, well, that's not what I asked. Where would we?
It's the possibility of it, right? It is.
Let's make an assumption that you and I both will compromise our values at some point. Let's spot it and let's get really clear about what we're going to do to fight it because we all suffer from the condition. And if we don't acknowledge it and game plan around it, you know, I love football. You and I can create a championship football team. Well, bring in great talent.
Or we can build a good football team. Okay. With talent. We want to create a championship team. Then we bring that great talent together and we help them master scenarios and situations. And so my job as a leader is in my one-on-ones with my SLTs is to help us see some of those scenarios and situations that will cause drift, that will impact a performance.
All right. I like, wow. I like where the story was.
and let's see ourselves operating in the way that we want to increases the likelihood that we perform congruent with how we say we want.
Well, it's such a great example, sport. I've talked to lot of guys who military, like it's 95 % practice, 5 % execution. But when you flip around into the normal world, it's usually 95, it's usually 99 % execution and 1 % practice. That's it. What I'm hearing you talked about is practicing, setting up scenarios. What would you, what would it be like if, what would we do when? You ever worked with a leader when they started doing this, that they actually realized that some of their values needed every, like needed that actually when we got there, everyone would do the thing that was against our values. So maybe that wasn't our value in the first place. Cause if you really look at things,
it then forces you to call into question what's written on the wall, because it might just be written on the wall. That's gotta be uncomfortable for leaders. What do mean sometimes?
Almost always.
Yeah, what do you mean sometimes? We create values and and I think we confuse that from are these aspirational what we aspire to which is in most organizations I would say that's true. Yeah Or is this can this be backed up by forensics? I'm servo And and this is part of a leader's job when you talk about we're spreading a virus
behavior.
Something I often say to leaders is, how are you creating repetition around the way that these values have lived since the last all hands meeting? How are the leaders throughout the organization creating visibility to when the values were nailed? And just as important, when do they course correct the mutations that have happened? Because so often we don't act on those because we're in the pace of the business, we're in the tactics.
It will happen.
we see a value being compromised or weaponized and we let it mutate over time. And now it just becomes a bigger issue. And this is when the credibility of our values erodes.
Startup founder, put some values up on the wall. Maybe we're testing, maybe we're trying. Long established organization. Similar problems, like is there some respect given to, if I'm listening to this and I'm an early stage founder, or running a small business and I'm like, well, this is what I thought it was. Talk to me about just the discipline around, or we're a 30 year business and these are always been, trust has always been number one, know, integrity is number two, I could almost rhyme them off. How do you balance off as a leader?
this has been on the wall for 30 years, so it must be true? Or like, holy shit, I'm just figuring this out right now, because I'm early on this journey and I don't know. Or should it always be kind of up for grabs based on the world that you're living in and being very deliberate about it?
Well, what it doesn't matter if it's 30 years or if it's a quarter since we've named our values. What's still true for us? What isn't? Where have we been aligned with this? Where haven't we? As a result, what needs to shift? And I think when you look at the commonalities, it doesn't matter if it's values or any bet we're placing in the business. It's all an experiment.
is.
Is this true? How did we execute this? What are we learning? What's next? And I think the more that we accept that reality, then it's liberating and most important, it's an indicator of reality.
love the word experiment versus the word failure. we're going to try and if we fail, we fail. But the experiment is exactly what it is. It kind of comes pre-baked in the word. It might work out, might not. But heaven forbid, the only thing that would make this wasteful is if we didn't learn from it. When you're coaching a leader and this is new for them, being deliberate about, know, I appreciate the way you speak to it. You make it sound very like this is the right way to do it. But there's always a period of time when we weren't doing it that way. And there's a period of time when we start. Talk to me about how then you support the leader, you know, for leaders that are watching.
That's right.
Toe that line, to give that, like I had a politician tell me once, she Tyler, when your constituency starts getting annoyed, that's when you know they're finally hearing you. I took a lot away from that, because as a leader, there is that, I keep toeing the line. How do you then coach and support a leader? Or what words of inspiration or wisdom or learned lessons you can give to people listening right now that are going, I really want to do this, but the world sucks me in. My team doesn't, you know, is too busy to have time for this. How do you be that champion, especially in the early days of creating a culture like this?
You
Well, in our method, it's around helping leaders build their operating system. Most leaders have an expert operating system. I'm an expert in my field. You you said it, processes, tactics. But what is your leader operating system? And how do we get you into the cycle of experimentation? And the model that we use, borrowed from high performance sport,
is really it's a I E R and a is awareness. The awareness is the end to transformation. So every every conversation, a universal foot sweep that shocks us and wakes us up to a different way. Everything big and small is an opportunity to challenge our awareness of ourselves, our business, situation. And here's the gift. Whenever that happens, we get to ask ourselves, take us to I.
What's going on?
intention. How do I want to engage with this situation? What do I want the result to be where we get intentional about here's the situation, here's how I want to engage with it. And then based on that intention, which is really a hypothesis, you move to E, what's the experiment that's going to test this intention that if it works, what do I want it to be? And so we identify the experiment, the exercise,
whether it's a, need to have a difficult conversation with Tyler to course correct this behavior of this situation. So then I get intentional about what I want that to look like. And then I go do it. And then I come back. And that's the art, the reflection piece. This is like watching game film as an athlete. What worked, what didn't, what's next, which then becomes this never ending cycle that brings you back to A, awareness.
What new awareness do I have as a result of this action I took with Tyler? And sadly, if people make it through that full cycle, they stop. It didn't work with Tyler.
But the ones that really get it, the ones that accelerate their ability to navigate challenge with grace, to lead in a never-ending complex world, are the ones that seek to get as many reps through that cycle as possible.
Working with leaders, I love that so much. I'm picturing it. can see the diagram that I'm drawing on my imaginary whiteboard. As you can tell, I'm a visual learner. How do you train leaders in the early days? Because that definitely moves you from react to reflect. Because there's a moment to get your awareness, reflection, and you're like, whoa, stop. But you made the comment earlier, there's so many things in your sphere that are chipping. It's almost like a child and a parent. That child gets really good at getting what they want from the parent.
Your team knows how to push your buttons as well as a leader, probably better than most. How do you coach the pause, the moment, the avoiding the jump, like that create just, and I love how people sometimes say, they don't have that kind of time. I'm like, it's a moment to A and then another moment to I, but sometimes it's a pretty, it's a new for those of us who love to jump. It's a new skill. How do you, what's your, what's the form?
Yeah.
So two things. First, it's the understanding that you will not get it right all the time.
Experiment.
And as a high performer, you're used to getting it right all the time. And oftentimes it's the discomfort or the question, if I'm going to be able to do this right, has us not play the game at all. And so when you can have a little learner self-compassion, that's something that you have to embrace. You're constantly working against the biology that got you here. And that's the hardest thing. It is.
Getting comfortable being uncomfortable.
But it comes back to situations. If I can help you see the exact situation that hooks you into being the expert in the person directing the conversation versus being curious and collaborative, if I can help you see that moment where you know that you get seduced into solving, then we can create a different pattern and a formula that we use.
Seduce is a great word. It's fabulous.
Seduction? Because it's a reality. It's happening around us. It's happening all the time. Yeah. The seduction to our phones, the seduction to solve problems. we get pulled into these things and we wonder why changes.
When I'm self-indulgent is often when not the best behavior shows up. That was fun. Did it feel good to push send? Maybe you shouldn't have pushed it. Working on it, but anyways, go ahead.
Yeah, extruder.
Yeah.
Well, right there, working on it, let's get clear about what are the few things that if I worked on would make a material impact in a positive way to my leadership, my team. We could create a list of many things we could and should do, but what are the very few? And then let's break it down as simple as possible. If X, then Y, so that Z.
what are the patterns you're seeing? Because there's some common ones, again, there's theme. We can make a list of the length of our arm, but there's probably some contenders that show up often.
Well, one, especially for someone who's a subject matter expert. I'm working away. If Tyler comes into my office asking me a question.
I didn't even knock, I just stormed
Yeah, and I've trained you wonderfully to come to me every time there's something that you're not sure what to do. For many reasons, because if maybe the few times you had the courage to go and try and find a solution on your own, you didn't do what I wanted. And my response was disproportionately aggravated upset. Okay, well, I've trained you, don't do that.
Yeah, we put a bullet in that behavior.
And so you come to my office now just to double check. And what do I do? Normally I solve that problem for you. You go off and run it.
I already feel everybody feels good about the transaction so far.
I have a physiological response because I just did something.
Dopamine, serotonin, pick the chemical.
You got it. Now, the problem is I've got eight people now on my team that constantly come to me and I wonder why don't I have time? Well trained and I wonder why I'm not working on high leverage. And I start to. Yes. Yes.
well-trained.
present them.
God damn, you guys never give me any time. You never leave me alone. Door's always open. And I've always got my white steed here that I can jump on any time.
You know, and so it's funny how we create our own prison this way. So then it's getting really clear. X, so if Tyler walks into my room and asks me a question, then Y, Y equals what?
I'm going to ask Tyler, I'm going to say, okay, Tyler, I'm really working not to answer these things because I know it doesn't do either one of us really good.
So first I'm gonna ask, what are the few options you think we should take? And now I'm gonna get really curious.
I was was waiting for it. was feeling it. I was feeling it.
What had you choose this over this? What might the risks be if we go down this path versus this? You just open up and one of the guidelines the entry points when we're teaching leaders to have more of a club collaborative approach is Most often your high-impact questions start with what? That's your entry point make it easy for yourself What is the risk what else have you considered?
To go honey language, you just-
that be
All of these. And so if Tyler comes into my office, that's X, I see that situation, then why?
I deliberately create distance from me solving the problem and I tell on myself, what I'm not gonna do is this. So let's unpack this together. But then it goes down to, that Z. Why would I wanna do this? This is going to take longer than me just giving you the solution. So why on earth would I do that?
so that you can be a future leader in this business. So that those eight people that normally would come to me for help, now I'm in process of scaling my leadership, my expertise, and the knowledge that I've acquired over these years. So that what? So that I can focus on the higher leverage things that are unlocking the future of this business. Because if you're in the C-suite, the more senior you are in the business,
Your job is the future.
You have less things on your desk, more things in your head.
And so that's the formula that when we can get really clear around those two diverging paths, the one that is most traveled and that's I'm going to solve and fix and continue to build the prison around me, or the more of the unknown path that builds more of a compelling future.
That sounds maybe good on paper, but how do you help people kick the dopamine habit? Feels really good to solve that problem. I've been solving those problems and being rewarded for it for the last 30 years of my career. And now you're asking me to stop. Is it simply believing that a better future is possible and being willing to try it? Being willing to experiment.
Well, You create a more compelling and clear vision of what it could and should be. Or we can play in forecasting the absolute nightmare because that's also can be a productive exploration. What happens if you don't change?
I have no time, can't leave the organization. I miss opportunities. It's instant list.
Or the threat of this attrition issue that maybe has continued to persist gets bigger and bigger.
And then you don't have the option to empower your team anymore because you don't have your team.
Yeah. Or worst, the worst thing that can happen is the people who do stay are the ones that just want you to keep solving. And you're wondering where did the creativity go? Where did the innovation go?
So the overarching theme of season one is the risk of certainty. And I've had some perspective, people are like, what do mean I'm a leader? I'm supposed to be certain. This really flips that on its head. Because if I'm certain I have all the answers, but if I'm curious and I'm open, I'm gonna create space for you to come up with some answers. So that certainty formula changes really quickly. But I don't know about you, in my early days of thinking what a leader was, being certain was part of the job description. What I'm hearing you though is,
I might be certain of what I think you should do, but what I'm really certain about is that empowering my team around me will raise us all up in the long run. So it's still certainty, but it moves it around on the board.
Even the risk of uncertainty has me go, well, is it more of an illusion of certainty?
Hmm, okay. Yes.
The risk of certainty, we know this, think Mark Twain said. It's not what you don't know that'll hurt you, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so. And I think that's where the biggest risk is, is more on the illusion of certainty. I appreciate that. This is the way, I'll give you an example, a discussion I had with a leader the other day. He needs to fill this new executive position. And he said,
But before this person starts, I need to have all of the lagging and leading indicators really put together.
Okay, why? Well, because won't I be perceived as incompetent if I don't have it? Okay, well, that's one perspective, but I've seen leaders take over functional areas that had zero experience and led them in incredibly competent fashion. Why? Because they asked the right questions. So imagine I hire you into an executive role. And number one, most important, you and I,
have a shared vision of what the mountain top is. This is where we need to go. Right? If you and I can agree that this is where we need to be, then I can ask all the questions. based on this, what do you think are the activities?
That is
that would take us there.
What do you think would be the KPIs along the way? What do you think the risks are? Now, if I'm driving that exploration through questions, a couple of things are happening. One, we unleash possibilities of things that maybe I didn't think of before. Two, I'm getting a real assessment as to your knowledge of the business or the way that we're
And more importantly, you even think.
how you think and then three, at best, and this is my opinion, the guidance I give to leaders, let your expertise be the backstop so that nothing gets through. But it can only happen if you show up with genuine curiosity and questions as if you and I, I know we're gonna figure this out together. But the worst thing that can happen is I have this all figured out, I give it to you.
That's it.
And I'm deliberately training you or not deliberately, I'm unintentionally training you to be an object of the business to execute my marching orders versus activating the creativity in the agency and likely the innovation.
would argue a higher degree of ownership. When you talk about discretionary effort, those two scenarios create very different.
You don't even have to argue. That's exactly what happens. Because if I can pull that out from you, you have more ownership. Now it's my job to help prove you, prove you right.
which is such a different formula. I think it was Patton had a quote, tell people what you want them to do and then be surprised on how they do it. And that was somebody who would probably be considered pretty directive, pretty bombastic. General Patton during World War II was like a wrecking ball of a general. But his theory was an unrealistic goal, but then let the people that are doing the thing figure out how to do it. And we'll get into that. That's maybe a weird metaphor, but a guy that's portrayed in the media as being, or certainly was portrayed as being the
top down, aggressive, like the ultimate general with the sidearm and the whole thing, the six shooter. But yet one of his favorite famous quotes was around being surprised of how your team actually executed on the thing that, know, the mountaintop that you literally the mountaintop in his case, the town that he picked to reclaim from the Nazis. And then he let them. I currently wasn't there and there's lots of mixed opinions, but it always resonates when people talk about that, like, no, but you need to let them know so they know how to do it. I'm like, well, who did you hire? Who are the people? How are you respecting them?
do it. Yeah.
such a factor there.
There is, you know, one of our teammates, Morgan Alexander, he was telling me a conversation he had with his daughter. I think she's 11 or 12. And I can't remember what it was about, but she said, well, dad, I thought I was doing what you wanted me to. And he goes, well, you know what's more important than you doing what you think I want you to? What? Doing what's right.
Most of it. Different orientation. If I'm here going, well, what would Tyler do? What should Tyler do? Then now I'm trying to guess. I'm playing a guessing game as to what my leader wants, needs, et cetera. I don't want to disappoint them. But if I've equipped my team with what's the right thing to do in a situation like this? Where's the creativity? Where do I need to show my work when Tyler comes and asks me about this decision?
Isn't that where we want our people to be?
And being in a company is a lot like being an 11 year old navigating the world. The rules feel like they're always changing. There's multiple variability. You're maybe new to this family that is this new company and you don't know what's right yet. But what a fantastic perspective of a conversation to have with your 11, 12 year old or your employee that's been there for a year or 10 years as things move around. Relational curiosity.
The next, you know, I built in my mind, everything's a process. So connecting with your people, being able to have these conversations. I've encountered lots of leaders in my journey that got their self-worth from how technical they were. I'm not a people person, but now I'm in a leadership role. You know, good, bad, or indifferent. That ability to connect empathetically or tactically empathetically with other individuals so that when you need to have these conversations, you've done the groundwork. What's your experience with leaders?
probably highly technical. We're both in Calgary, Alberta with this podcast. Lots of companies led by accountants, engineers, geologists, people that I've met that always didn't get into it because of the human side. They got into it because of the spreadsheet side. But yet now they're in leadership roles. How do you foster or coach or support people around going, no, no, no, it's important to foster these relationships. So when you need to have the tough conversations, you've got some groundwork. And I'm being binary with it, but how do you track on that one?
I'm going to start with a story. do. A CFO had become COO, multinational organization. And the reason why I got called in to work with him was because of massive dysfunction.
You got the call. The bad phone went off.
This was this is one of the examples of a mandated coaching that had a good ending. So picture this, this CFO turned COO had such a bad reputation. The types of things people said on the 360 was, this is the grim reaper. Whenever this person walks into the room, you're going to expect heads to roll or
Whenever this person walks in the room, if you've never seen cockroaches scatter, that's how people respond to this person. And we often, we bring awareness to the picture. It's a picture. imagine walking down the hall and the, the, the movie, whatever movie it is, just the evil pushes. But yeah. So I remember sitting and going through the results.
the sick old cloak, the whole thing.
and the look on this leader's eyes. They had an idea.
but they were clueless as to the depth of the impact. They thought they were doing their job.
you know, really serving the finances of the business, know, streamlining operations from a strategic.
These very common terms, right? And they're commonly used.
and they were delivering. But the body count was tremendous. And so we're going through this and I can almost see, almost see tears at the bottom of the eye, a desire to change. The human part.
you got to the human part. How long were they in that role? A CFO.
I just under a decade.
clearly praised, validated, and rewarded for the behavior.
And isn't that the worst thing? When the world very common words, the behaviors that
Have you read The Railroader? The Hunter Harrison story?
Excuse me. No.
I recommend it. But the delivery on shareholder value was astronomical. And the price to the humans involved was paramount, but it was rewarded. It's a great story. would recommend it as far as biography goes. A US Canadian story of a very prolific leader that I think we would have got to sit. I don't think it, I've known people that worked from the 360 was, they've like, you read the book. You don't know the half of it. But rewarded.
Yeah.
Well, and that's rewarding. And that's of the challenges in a business. There's the transactional reality of the business. And then there's the transformational requirement of the leader that not always answer the call.
And this transactional element can be a gruesome, gruesome game. Three, well, it was interesting.
So you gave the 360 feedback. What happened next? I'm feeling for him. Like I am. My humanity feels for his humanity.
And really, despite the outward appearance that people had, then the story that was made up, this was a deeply caring person. And it hurt what was read in that report. And he said, but here's the thing. He says, I'm on the back nine of my career. Can you really teach an old dog new tricks?
but there was willingness there. And we started envisioning how things could be. How might he want to be? That's right. And it was funny because we were just doing a, we were going through a process, an exploration process. And I asked him, you know, some random questions. said, well, if there was an animal that feels so foreign to the way that you've been leading,
Possibility like what would it be like if?
but feels right to you, what would it be? I love it. You know, so CFO, COO, asking these random generative questions and he goes, I've always liked meerkats. I go, okay, if your leadership transformed into being driven by meerkat type of behaviors, what would that be? And he started, he lightened up, he started talking about this, you know, it would look like this.
What a great coaching session.
And then you're back in grade three again.
That's right. How would you enter into meetings? How would you deal with conflict and your many scenarios? So see yourself in these situations that normally would pull what we have as one bookend, which is the grim reaper. And the other end of what is the expression of your leadership as a meerkat? And I tell you what, this guy put a picture of a meerkat in his office.
Sultry.
Pretty clear.
We created repetition around him looking at this picture, understanding the behaviors and the different response when these situations that would normally pull him into.
used as an anchor, which I love. to spiritual, you create a resource state, you anchor yourself in on the behavior and you practice.
It's a process of performance.
I love the mirror. This is a great
And so here's something, and I write about this in the book, because I remember the moment in six months, this guy did what it took to almost completely rebrand his reputation inside the business. The cockroaches weren't scattering. People would come to him for help. They would lean into him as a thought partner. And when
in the latter end of our coaching process, I brought up what he said almost the first day. I said, hey, at the beginning of this, you said, you asked me if you can teach an old dog new tricks. So what's the answer to that? He goes, I guess it comes down to how bad that old dog wants to learn.
And so the process for your own transformation, when there's a desire for that thing that's different or better, then as humans, it's incredible the transformation that we can step into.
we are adaptation machines, but you have to create the right stimulus. Did the team give him permission or did it take a little bit to earn that trust? I trusted him to be a certain way before. Now they're, he's like, wait a second. It was kind of nice. What's going to happen? Like, am I getting duped here? Like I could feel that there would be some organizational resistance to that because we're humans, right?
Because they
There always will and I think that's one of the things you have to accept that some people may just not make it.
Back to your original point, what am I okay with and why? And if I'm coming from a solid place, I'm okay that after 10 years, they might not believe me right out of the gate. And that's okay. I might not believe them anymore either.
and rightfully so.
True, but it comes down to preparing some of those different conversations, what we call engineer the relationship. So how do you get one-to-one with some of the people that did you the honor of giving you that hard feedback? How do you communicate your desire to change? How do you show them or enroll them? You're my direct report. Here's how I want to be different. How can I count on you?
to let me know if I'm sliding back into Grim Reaper because let's both anticipate we
kind of deliberately creating a sponsor then too, right? By including them in the journey. And other humans love that. In my experience, we do, we do.
but it doesn't have to be.
Well, and you people talk about flat organization.
You don't need to just change the structure of the business to have a flat organization. The best leaders run in a very flat format where it's collaborative, it's thought partnering. that's it. It's driven by relational. Here's the piece. You you said the relational driver. It all comes down to equity.
a really strong relational opportunity.
The amount of equity I have with you means I can challenge you like no one else. We create a level of accountability that exists nowhere else, that the truth telling happens here like nowhere else, all based on what? The amount of relational equity we have. And it just continues to blow me away how much time, effort is wasted on this engagement problem. When I tell you what,
We're measuring the wrong.
You're measuring the wrong thing. You need to start measuring your ability to create relationship equity inside the business. Because we know what the data says. Your relationship with your manager and the people in your org is going to drive it. So why are we trying to gamify or create these complex issues when the raging torrent of pace and our addiction to the transactions of the business
the number one driver.
are what's infecting the situation that we're trying to solve.
Why do you think that is?
we're comfortable with transactions. Because they're out here. We're comfortable with spreadsheets. That's Safe. That's it. But if I'm a leader and I want to ask one of the simplest questions that can blow the roof off your vision, and that's to sit down with Tyler, one of my teammates and go, Tyler, what's going to make this the best year of your professional career?
Let me organize this stack of books.
Like if you and I are sitting here a year from now, what's moving you to tears by the amount of growth that you've just experienced this year, the risks you've taken, the challenges you've overcome?
So.
Because if I help you see that and I ask you, how do I help you do that?
Yeah. Right there. How often do you work with a leader that then quickly says, everybody needs to drink the same Kool-Aid? Because as a leader, you've got so much on the go and you're buying into this story and you believe in it. Everything you've said today, I'm convinced. Wow, I have this team and I have that team and I see the dysfunction and yes, I'm gonna be the role model and I'm gonna be the change I wanna be in my organization. But I often find leadership development, leadership training tends to get pretty thin as you fall away from the top. Yeah.
Thoughts on that perspective, something you guys are tackling as an organization?
Well, that's really how our business was built. I'm working with senior leaders and they go, we need our team on this operating system. Because when we speak the language, then we can just get further faster.
I want everyone else in the club.
It has about a shared language. love that you said that. shared language or this is how things get done around here can mean a lot.
can mean a lot when we have a shared language, when we have a shared tool set, then we know when situations show up, when we need to re-engineer relationships, when we need to bookend for clarity or whatever it is. Or that we know here, hey, have you had your best year yet conversation yet with your team? What are you learning?
of having that as a category. I'm gonna use that. I do not use it now and I'm gonna use it, so thank you. For anyone who's listening.
Well, the next time we meet, I want to hear what your best.
I'm just hoping you weren't gonna ask me right now, because I don't know if I could. Yeah, absolutely. Challenge accepted, friend.
self-curiosity, relational curiosity, ultimate pinnacle of strategic curiosity, because we're free, we're present, we're showing up, we trust, we explore. You've got to see some significant movement in these organizations when you lay this groundwork to get to the ultimate level of like, how do we solve real big problems at the pace that they're coming at us, which is almost cliche to say, what's your five-year plan? How about my next five-week plan, let alone my five-month plan, in terms of, don't know, what's AI gonna come up with tomorrow?
For the organizations that you work with, where you've been with them for a while and you've seen this permeate, I can only imagine the payoff of collective performance, strategic curiosity at the highest level has to be paramount for you.
It is, and you know, nothing brings me greater joy when I have coffee with a leader and they tell me about the way this has been brought to life inside their organization. It fills me up. I had a coffee with a leader who their organization was acquired. And so he stepped into a different organization, had no exposure to this stuff. And of course,
It's got to fill you up.
It's an organization that a lot of tenured employees long time. I think he said if anyone was sub 10 years, they were new. And so he was brand brand.
Yeah, I've met those. I knew around here and I made yours in. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, he took over a team and right away he said people were telling him you got to get rid of this guy Let's call him Joe. You got to get Rachel and he says Joe and Karen Joe Joe he said would show up to work dressed like a mess hair messy and People gave him all the reasons why Joe shouldn't be there and he said, okay
Karen, jo-
I can believe what everyone else told me about Joe, but I'm just going to work the tools." And he sat Joe down and he said, hey Joe, I got a question for you. What would make this the best year of your professional career? And of course, most people struggle. If you're not willing to be in the presence of somebody that doesn't have the answers to that, then it won't go anywhere. You have to be curious.
I love that you said that, because I was almost like, I'm going to get back to you, which you've now given me that grace. But respect the size of the question that you just asked.
It's massive and here's the reality you're asking a dreaming and visioning question when most people are heads down driving transactions Yeah, and and our ability to vision and dream has atrophied greatly since we were kids Because we don't ask ourselves We have lost the wonder we've lost the curiosity. It's too fluffy. I but we
the books, I'm organizing the desk.
We lost the wonder.
for corporate space. Disagree.
Okay, well, no, I'll tell you and it's very easy to label this as fluff, but you ask Joe and Joe struggles and you give Joe permission to struggle, but you keep pulling and then you even say, Joe, let's come back to it. I was gonna say, yeah. Okay. Yeah. This isn't just a one sit. Give me your answers. Okay. Let's write it down.
Did you let him go?
It could feel like getting attacked. It could. Pretty easily, actually.
Well, especially if you haven't had leadership that is having those kinds of conversations. Yeah, exactly. No equity. So over a process, he starts to unpack this vision and he goes, okay, I'm going to be honest with you. You don't have a great reputation in this business.
Plus you have no equity with Joe. No rapport. Call it what you want, but I love it.
Here's what I've heard coming in.
What's the real story? How do you want people to think about you as a contributor in this business? And then did a beautiful job of engineering the relationship. He said, okay, I'm not the type of absent leader that's just gonna throw objectives your way and come back and grade you and appraise you. We're gonna meet. I'm gonna course correct. I'm giving you frequent feedback, not to hurt you, but to help you. Because if you say you want this for yourself, then let's...
Let's go after it. And my job is going to help you get it. That's it. And so really created the conditions for performance to occur and didn't just easily fall victim to the narrative about Joe that everyone else has created.
I'm here to be your sponsor, your advocate.
And when I asked this leader who was telling me this story, he said his whole career, that's probably his greatest success because Joe took home the biggest bonus that guy ever took from this business because he lit a fire. And so it's just stories like that, that when I have the pleasure of hearing the impact of people taking these tools,
Biggest turnaround.
put them to work and lighting the fire and the expression of the talent inside their business. Where he says, Joe shows up into the business, he's all neat and tidy, his hair is combed, his confidence is there. He changed, the identity changed. we, leaders can make an impact on the bottom line of the business. But the greatest impact is when they,
whole narrative, the whole story chain. Because the identity
They have a financial impact, through elevating the hearts and minds of the people inside the business. That's a story I will never let go of.
But if we didn't need the hearts and minds to make the impact, we wouldn't have the hearts and minds. So start with the hearts and minds and then get the impact. Like that's why we have a team around us. Like the simple ROI of to hire a resource that you believe can do a thing and then compress it, direct it, manage it, micro direct it, and then completely not get advantage out of that resource. Like it's actually quite binary from a financial perspective. If you just want to take the human side out of it, which we're not, but you have all these things, but I'm going to tell you to hit the nail this way every day.
at a leadership mid-level knowledge-based businesses, that's not where you're get the most value out of your investment, which is the money that you gave that person. And ultimately, like you've talked about, the disconnect and the non-buying you're gonna get by treating them that way also is gonna be compounding your decreased rate of return. It's so binary in my mind that I have a bias this way. Which I'm thankful for, because I didn't in my earlier career, so here we are.
It is.
Well, we talk about assets, right? Tangible and intangible assets. We can buy a building and it will appreciate over time, hopefully. But we often miss the intangible asset. The moment I hire you in my business, you're an intangible asset. It's either going to grow and compound in value or it's going to erode. And the primary reason why that intangible asset will erode
Yes, hopefully.
is my lack of leadership.
And when leaders get that, and most businesses now are 90 % intangible asset, the heart, the mind, the creativity, the network, everything that you bring every day is the intangible asset. Question is, what am I doing to grow that asset?
Mm-hmm.
do you balance out the working leader aspect of the majority of management and leaders are working leaders. They have tasks, they have deliverables to the organization, to the customer, to the thing that they do. This sounds like it takes a lot of time. I'm worried about how much time this is going to take. God, don't you know how busy we all are? I'm busy. How are you? I'm busy. It's a badge of honor. Then I had a conversation with a corporate trainer and she says, Tyler, most of the leaders I encounter at that mid-tier level that she was working with, 85 %
to 90 % of them are working leaders. And even when they buy into the idea, they still struggle to make the time. Time is the greatest excuse we've always had and the greatest reason that we've always had. How do you balance that?
Yep.
If you don't make the time, then you're seduced into the transaction because it's seduction yet again. And that's it. If you don't build it into your operating system and see it as an investment, all of my coaching sessions with my team members may not deliver an immediate return. But it's just like compound interest on anything. The more that I engage in these discussions,
Seduction yet again.
engage
Believe that to be true. You believe that.
As we've seen it. Yeah. You've seen it. Yeah.
for a lot of leaders, and again, that's part of the journey of working with a coach. That's probably why you don't do one session with somebody. probably, what's the minimum engagement with a, not even with you, but that anyone should think about? Because if you're not listening to this and thinking about getting a coach, you haven't been paying attention. Wanna be crystal clear to the camera as it looks me in the eye. What's the minimum time to engagement to actually, you know, and that's, I'm asking for a prescription on that thing, but anyways, go ahead.
You can have insight in one coaching session, but insight is fleeting. It is. Are you willing to do the reps when you don't have the inspiration? Are you willing to do the reps and go through the process? That's the biggest thing. I a lot of it is a fit is very similar to fitness. Six months.
Back to the fitness metaphor.
is probably a realistic if you want to make some significant change, work with a coach for six months. I will not work for someone less than a year. Well, and part of it is, hey, what's going to make this the best year of your professional career? I want to be there celebrating with you when
I love it.
I gotta be around for the whole year.
It would feel weird if then you told me you're only gonna work with me for six months after you me that question. Exactly. What do want me to do? Just fly blind for another six months? Well, because it's the time. And when you work with leaders, you're working with a human being. You're not working with a leader that they put on their cloak and their leader hat when they walk in. How important it is, or I guess...
when it goes bigger, because you're changing as a person who then ends up being a more effective, more impactful, quote unquote, better leader. How critical it is though for people to get really curious about all aspects of their life when they're tackling some of these challenges internally. We have family, we have friends, we have the four burners that make up our life. How critical is that for you when you meet with people that are willing to look at it beyond like, well, no, this is just about work. The rest of everything is fine. It's probably not.
when we talk about culture.
we break down culture into three layers. There's the culture we normally talk about. That's the organization. But then inside of that macro culture, there are many micro cultures. You and I work on a team together, you and I have a culture that's different than Joe and Karen. But then when we get into a room together, we have a team culture.
but you roll it back to the most important culture and that's this skin covered Petri dish. If you want to grow, if we're scientists and you want to grow anything, you grow it through a culture and the same analogy applies in organizations, but this skin covered Petri dish is the most important culture, especially if I'm a CEO, a senior leader, because the quality
of the culture around me cascades from this. So if I'm not inspired, if I'm not confident, if I'm not feeling in a space of trust.
then what are the viruses I'm spreading that are influencing the next level of culture? Yeah, not great. So when you talk about your health, your mindset, inspiration, your vision, that means it's a massive responsibility for the leader to be the custodian of this culture, number one. And what do I mean when I say a custodian? Your culture is in your custody.
I turn on my nose.
What are you feeding it? How are you activating it? Because if I can't get this right, how can I get this right?
I would argue you're not going to be able to. You won't. Any word versus outward, right? How quickly when you're working with, especially someone new on your journey from a coaching perspective, does that come up in session one? Like, is this something we get to or it's on the table rather than? You started this about connection, right? Which is very much all encompassing.
won't.
Yeah, I so
Yeah, so one thing I've learned through my coaching is we could spend a year introducing the base tools or we can have a day together.
one day to go through the tools, build the base, build the connection, get a shared understanding of what your vision is as a leader, and let's really get the base operating system planted so we can start running experiments right away. So for me, when I'm working with a client, let's block out the noise and let's get really focused on the core elements of your operating system.
creating the space and taking the time, which also makes it very you can't you're not like you're not mailing that in.
Yeah.
Offsite, going to hike, go in middle of a field somewhere and go sit on a mountain. All of the above.
of office, out of the office. Yeah. What I like is spend the first half of the day informal. You're going on a hike. You're talking about vision. You're talking about like, give me your life story. Yeah. What got you here? How did you get here? What have been your strengths? What have been your fallbacks? That's it.
Feels mandatory.
relationship and ultimately you're building trust. Because as a coach you're about to push some things. Without trust that becomes like, how dare you?
yeah, and that's where a lot of the engineering of the relationship, there will be times where I offend you. There will be times where my questions really irritate you. But where we have to align is that my questions are absolutely in service of you, not against you.
as a leader should I have that exact same philosophy with my team? Because you're coming from a coaching perspective, but leading is coaching and coaching is leading to a certain extent. You've been hired in a role. I hear those as a leader and I'm like, if I think of the best relationships I have, almost sometimes both ways, those same things are true.
You should seek to have a lot of the same principles as a coaching relationship. But there is one thing that you will always wrestle around. And that is, I influence your paycheck. If I'm a leader, there is that power dynamic. And then there's that other piece. This is where external coaching has
this.
It is better positioned because an external coach comes in and it doesn't have any of the organizational issues that can cloud perspective. And I'm not your leader. And there's this thing it's like dad, dad or mom coaching their kid is you're not only trying to get them to be better in their sport, but you're also getting them to clean up their shit at home. And so it can be too much. Not that you can't have.
It might be too much.
you can use good coaching principles. that's it. That's the difference.
I think remembering, that's a key difference. It's funny, earlier in my career, I did a lot of personal training and I can't tell you how many times at end of the session, F you, I'll see you Wednesday.
Yeah.
That was the rule. I've also worked out with good friends. I've also worked out with my spouse. Didn't work out the same way. It wasn't a good idea fundamentally. She got her own personal trainer. was way better. Because the dynamic is different.
Yeah.
Don't coach your spouse.
Yeah, I think that's a good takeaway out of all the things that we share too. Already sounds problematic. Yeah, I'm gonna stop before this goes anywhere I can't back away from. This is just a simple curiosity. You do work North and South of the border. We're in Calgary, Canada right now. I know your business is based here, but I know you do tons of work in the US. You've spent a lot of time in the US. Same, same cultural differences. When we boil it all down, it's a bunch of humans having a messy experience. Or do you run into some differences with the...
I just want you to be better.
corporate culture in the US, it's the same, but it's very different. Usually that's where people stop the description.
I think when you get into sitting in a chair across from the other person, it's all humans navigating this mystery that will never be solved. And when we have the right co-pilot, then we can create some cool things. If there's a difference, it's just south of the border. There tends to be more of an investment in this. There's more of a value on.
Hahaha
having the thought partnership, the training, the coaching in general, the perception of value just seems to be higher.
a bit tied to more of a high-performance culture. Businesses are pushing hard. Can this give me an advantage? I'm donating it. Where like, I heard this gave someone an advantage, but I'm gonna wait and see. I've heard that comparison where, you know, the lineup to be first, if it gives you a leg up, is shorter in the US than it is in Canada, just to speak broad, broad, broad-sweep, but that's interesting. I appreciate the different perspectives, but at the end of the day, it down to humans having a messy experience,
Hey.
That's
Jason, so many perspectives today, so valuable. Thank you for your honesty and your time in the trenches to able to talk about this the way you have. Any parting words of wisdom, which I know in itself is a problematic question, but so many people listening that are leaders, that are aspiring leaders. I really wrote the book for people that were like, hey, I didn't even see leadership as a viable path, but if I do, I want it to be different than maybe what examples I've had, which was top down, command and control, a lot of that stuff. Your version is very appealing to me.
would be appealing to a lot of people I've talked to through my experience with the book. For those individuals that are looking at leadership as like, I see this, I see this, how do they step into leadership? By their own hand.
Well, I think I'll pull back on the illusion of certainty. You can have immense expertise and not get seduced into certainty being the path. And so how do I take my competence and put it beside an incredible commitment to collaborate? Not that I'm not going to make decisions and hard decisions, but ultimately so that I know how to engineer relationships.
in a way that creates the conditions for the best performance on my team. That is the battle.
and the opportunity. I feel never, like never before in our history is that actually a, that's table, it's a requirement. Jason, amazing conversation, level 52, you guys do incredible work. Anyone I've met in your organization, pull me away. Thank you. And I say that with the warmest, biggest heart because you, they are a reflection of you and you're a reflection of them. And when you talk about culture, it's something that I really admire about what you've done. So for anybody listening, I would encourage.
And the opportunity.
Yeah, that's it.
as
Every conversation I have with you is enlightening and your team is similar. So by all means, please reach out. Any, any preferred? Do you LinkedIn? What's your favorite?
LinkedIn, track me down on Thanks, Tyler.
Thank you.