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When life gets hard, does what we think we believe hold us up, or does it crumble under the weight of doubt? I'm your host, Dr. Lee Warren- I'm a brain surgeon, author, and a person who's seen some stuff and wondered where God is in all this mess. This is The Spiritual Brain Surgery podcast, where we'll take a hard look at what we believe, why we believe it, and the neuroscience behind how our minds and our brains can smash together with faith to help us become healthier, feel better, and be happier so we can find the hope to withstand anything life throws at us. You've got questions, and we're going to do the hard work to find the answers, but you can't change your life until you change your mind, and it's gonna take some spiritual-brain surgery to get it done. So let's get after it.
Good morning, my friend. Dr. Lee Warren here with you, and it is some more spiritual brain surgery.
It's Easter Sunday as we record this, and Tata and I sat down next to the beautiful,
sunrise on the riverbank and recorded an episode for you.
We went deep into the story of doubting Thomas.
I think all of us relate to him a little bit, and it's an incredible conversation.
I know will bless you today for some spiritual brain surgery.
Hey, don't forget to subscribe to this show wherever you listen to podcasts
and leave a rating or review that really helps other people find out about the show.
Make sure you subscribe to the newsletter, drleewarren.substack.com,
drleewarren.substack.com.
Every Sunday since 2014, we've been bringing you our best prescriptions for
how you can smash faith and neuroscience together to help you become healthier
and feel better and be happier.
We're going to get deep into the story of Doubting Thomas with Tata today. Let's get after it.
When life gets hard, does what we think we believe hold us up?
Or does it crumble under the weight of doubt?
I'm Dr. Lee Warren, your host, and this is Spiritual Brain Surgery,
where we'll take a hard look at what we believe,
why we believe it, and the neuroscience behind how our minds and our brains
can work together to help us
build a bulletproof faith that will withstand anything life throws at us.
Whether you're struggling with anxiety, grief, doubt, or you just want to go
deeper, into the big questions we all have.
Remember, you can't change your life until you change your mind,
and sometimes it takes spiritual brain surgery to get it done. So let's get after it.
We're back, and it is a beautiful Sunday morning.
Sunday. Amen. He is risen. He is risen. Amen. And we're here on Sunday,
so it must be Tuesdays with Tata.
Thank you. We're waiting on brunch and church services later today,
and we thought we would sit down and record this conversation for you.
Amen. How are you doing today, Tata? I'm doing well. How are you?
I'm really well. I'm grateful today that the stone is rolled away and the tomb is empty. Yes. Amen.
And while it was still dark, the women went to the tomb, and there was no one
there. That's right. Amen.
That's why we have hope. Amen.
Well, Tata, what are we going to talk about today? Well, we should talk about
the empty tomb today, but one of the things that,
leads right into that is Thomas in Acts 20.
I mean, John 20. John 20, right.
And Thomas was, and we know, we think of him because everybody refers to him as doubting Thomas.
And anyone that questions, that's the reference that's made to them.
But probably the easiest way to understand this is for me to read to you from John 20, 19.
And I'll give you a moment to get there.
But on the evening of the first day of the week. And so here they were several days later. Yeah.
And when the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders.
That's amazing because to me, the Jewish leaders were, that was a moot point
to lock the door because they'd already been satisfied because they had seen Jesus killed.
That's right. And they did not believe in the resurrection anyway. That's right.
But just as a safeguard, they had posted, they asked Pilate to post some guards at the tomb. Yep.
So no one could steal his body. That's right. And claim that he was alive.
But here they were, they were in this room and they had the door locked.
And he came in, he said, peace be with you.
And what an amazing statement.
Because he knew they were fearful. He knew they were concerned about many things.
That's right. And they were terrified for their own lives, of course.
But he came in and he stood among
them. And bear in mind, the doors were locked. So Jesus just walked in.
He walked through the doors that were locked in. And after he said this,
he showed them his hands and his side.
The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
And Jesus said, peace be with you. As my father has sent you,
I'm sending you. and here's something that took place now bear in mind Thomas
was not there that's right and I've wondered about this piece too as well,
And then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven.
If you do not forgive them, their sins are not forgiven." So here we are,
Jesus appeared to them. Now, how many were there? I don't know.
Does not say, but we do know that Thomas was not there.
But it tells us, in the record, it tells us that he was not there.
That's right. And so later when the disciples, when they did see Thomas,
now where Thomas was, I don't know where he was. He may have gone fishy.
Thomas was known as Didamus, and sometimes referred to as a twin.
Did he have a twin brother? I don't know. Maybe he did, maybe he did not.
But anyway, that's how he was called.
But he said he wouldn't believe.
Because the disciples told Thomas that they had seen the Lord.
And Thomas said, I will not believe it until I see the scars in his hands and
touch the side where he was pierced.
And so later, sometime later, we see another time when the disciples were in
the same room and had a door locked.
But at that time, Thomas was there. That's right.
And Jesus walked in. That's right.
And he said to Thomas, touch my hands, touch my scars on my hands, see the scar on my side.
And what did Thomas do? He did. He believed.
And so that right there, Thomas said to him, my Lord and my God.
And then Jesus said to him, because you have seen me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Yeah.
What a powerful statement.
Now, could Jesus foresee all of that? Yes.
Could he cause that to happen? Yes.
Because already we've seen him perform miracles. He walked into a room where
the door was locked. That's right.
Did on several occasions. And he even knew what was in Thomas' heart before
Thomas even said anything to him. That's right.
And so Jesus took the initiative with Thomas by saying to him,
see my hands, see my scars.
So that's encouraging to us right now, because here we sit, and we've already introduced this day,
and it's a day that has been set aside by man to observe, and whether this was
the day that Jesus was raised from the dead, I don't know.
The first day of the week, that was the time we were supposed to celebrate it,
but we've already acknowledged that he's risen, and we've wished to exchange,
with people. Happy Easter.
And I go back to, I've always labored with the point of Friday being good Friday.
Well, it was good because Jesus died for us, but it was bad because he died.
That's right. And so it was black.
But anyway, we believe all of that and we still have not seen. We have not touched.
Just like John said, the reason that John even wrote this book was so that we
may believe. And these were just a few of the things.
And John even presumed that if everything had been written down that Jesus had
said, now bear in mind in three years, that the world could not contain the books.
What an amazing picture to have that in your mind, to think about the fact that
Jesus said so many things.
And all of the time, the disciples didn't get what he said. That's right.
They never did. They didn't understand. They didn't even understand he was going
to be crucified. And they didn't understand that he was going to be raised from the dead.
But so all of those things, but being what they are, the part that where we
have hope is what Jesus said to Thomas, blessed are you because you believe, because you've seen.
But what about those people that have not seen? They're blessed.
And they're blessed as well because they believe and have not seen. That's right.
So is that easy to do?
And friends, I'm addressing you too. As you think about, and on this day,
there's so many mixed emotions.
It's a mixed bag for most people.
Some people are in dire straits and some people are suffering and some people
have trouble, and we think about the joys of the little children on this day,
the Easter baskets, and I can remember Easter so many times,
and Lisa told me the other day, she said, can you believe this is Easter?
It's 30 degrees, and maybe it was cold then.
Well, it must have been, because Peter was sitting around a fire with the people,
when Jesus was being tried, and he was trying to keep warm with the rest of
them. So it was cold on that night.
But anyway, believing and understanding is very hard because we did not see and we did not know.
We were not there, and we have no evidence as we count evidence today.
We cannot use a scientific problem-solving process to arrive at this conclusion. That's right.
But maybe some of that can be applicable because like many, like Lee Strobel,
the case for Christ was based on his investigation.
That's right. And so what does that say?
That says we have to take the action. That's right. We have to take the initiative.
Look into it for ourselves. That's right. Yep. Then we can believe.
That's right. And let's don't beat up too much on Thomas, because it's interesting
that they told him this story, and he said, they said, you know, we were in a locked room.
Jesus came through the wall and showed us his hands and feet inside.
And Thomas says, I won't believe unless I see that for myself. That's right.
But he didn't say, I won't believe it unless I see him come through a locked
door. The other disciples had two signs.
They saw that happen, and Jesus showed them the signs, the wounds.
And so Thomas only asked for one.
So don't feel bad sometimes if your brain wants evidence. That's normal.
But what faith is, is believing in spite of lack of evidence. That's right.
That's right. And to hold on to this with all your might is very hard.
That's right. Because in this
world, we're faced with so many things that take our eye off the ball.
That's right. And we take our eye off of Jesus Christ.
But if we allow that to happen, remember where all that comes from.
Satan is the one that brings the doubts and fears and concerns that have no merit. That's right.
He comes to take it away. And so, what we have to do, in my opinion,
is what Jesus did when he was tempted in the desert.
He refuted Scripture. Yeah, he refuted Scripture. But then he said, get behind me.
So, get out of my face.
Don't talk to me. That's right.
Because Jesus knew who he was. Yeah. And sometimes we know who he is,
but sometimes he's hard to distinguish. Yeah.
Because it comes in, it's almost like it's being veiled.
And because we hear voices in our mind, we hear, this is not as bad as you think it is. That's right.
And then we hear questions. Did God really say that? That's right. Well, we go back to Eve.
That's how Satan deceived her. That's right.
He asked a question. This reminds me of our granddaughter Scarlett,
your great-granddaughter.
When she was little, if she made a mess or something and our daughter would
show it to her and she didn't want to deal with it, she would say,
don't show that to my eyes.
Don't show that to my eyes. We need to say that when we're being challenged,
when we have these false thoughts and feelings and we have the enemy voice,
we need to say, hey, don't show that to my eyes. That's right.
Get out of my head. We have the right. What Paul tells us is,
resist the devil, and he will flee from us. That's right.
Peter talks about that too, but Peter also warns us that Satan is like a roaring
lion going about seeking who he can destroy.
Another point that I've thought about often is when, as we read the book of
Job, And on that day, when the sons of God or the angels of God were appearing before him,
Satan appeared before him as well.
That's right. And God knew who he was.
And he saw him. He said, where have you been?
That's right. And Satan just said, I've been walking around on earth, just walking around.
Yeah, walking around the earth. That's right. Hey, I'm going to confess,
because it's so early in the morning here, Tata and I are both not yet fully
awake. But the scripture we were both trying to quote is actually from James.
James 4, 7. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
That's correct. So that friend, that's a good example of how you shouldn't let
anybody tell you what the word says without checking for yourself.
Like Paul said about the Bereans, like Tata and I both had that scripture in our minds.
I thought it was Paul and he thought it was Peter. It's actually James. So go look it up.
That's correct. James 4.7. Well, and that's what the scriptures tell us about
the people at Berea. They were more noble.
People that lived at the Sennica because they searched the scripture.
That's right. And why did they search it?
To see if these things were true. That's right. And that's what we need you
to do with Tuesdays with Ta-Ta. That's right. That's Acts 1711, by the way.
That's such a beautiful reminder, though. You can know something in your heart,
and you can still be wrong about it.
That's right. I had it in my mind that that was Paul, and you had it as Peter. It was actually James.
And it's just a beautiful point here that even on Easter Sunday,
we don't ever want to be the sole voice of authority for you.
We want you to look things up and search them and Google them and check them
out for yourselves because everybody, even AI, can make mistakes. That's right.
So make sure that you're always searching out the word yourself, friend.
That's the prehab that you need to do when life gets hard because Easter Sunday
reminds us that the reason there had to be a resurrection was because there
was a death. That's right.
Well, and also it was a promise that God had made and a promise that Jesus had
made that on the third day he would be raised from the dead.
And if we just back up and look at all of these things and say to ourselves,
okay, can all of this be true? That's right.
But what did Jesus say to Thomas?
He said to Thomas, blessed are you because you have seen. You have seen.
But what about those that have not?
They're blessed as well. They're happy as well. They're content to know that
their your soul has been saved.
That's right. We don't have to see everything.
We can just believe, and God will fill that, He'll honor that belief.
Well, I'm convinced that if we could see everything that was taking place,
we'd be terrified, because Paul, now this is, I think this is true,
that Paul said that our battle is not against flesh and blood,
but against the spiritual.
And he goes on to identify what seems to be government.
An organization. That's right. And the other part of that is in the spirit,
in the heavenly realms. That's right.
So is that evil present everywhere? It is. That's Ephesians 6,
by the way. Paul did say that.
I'm looking everything up today. I'm glad you're doing that.
I'm glad you're doing that. We'll give folks some bibliography for this episode.
This is the earliest in the morning we've ever done Tuesdays with Fatah. I think so, yeah.
And I'm about as sharp as a marble today. Yeah, me too. It's beautiful,
though. The sunrise is coming up over the river and renewing our hope.
And there's a pair of Canadian geese walking around out there.
And it's just a beautiful morning on this Easter Sunday. And I wonder what the
day was like when the women went to the tomb. And that's in John 22.
John 20 as well. We're talking about Thomas. The very first part of that chapter
is what Tata says every Sunday morning when he looks out the window while it was still dark.
The woman went to the tomb. And I wonder what that day was like.
Well, and that was also mysterious as well, because even when Mary Magdalene
saw the Lord, she mistook him for the gardener. That's right.
Now, how often do you see the gardener in the Garden of Gethsemane? That's right.
I don't know. But she looked at him, and then when he spoke to her,
Then she recognized him. That's right.
So I don't know if it has anything to do with believing or not believing,
but it was so strange to me that she would make that mistake based on the mission that she was on.
That's right. And that was to take care of his body.
And that, to me, and so what did that evidence?
That evidence, she had seen him, she had heard him, she had touched him,
she knew who he was, and she believed. That's right.
But think about all of those people that did not witness that,
and think about of us today.
There is no possible way. This is 2,000 years later.
We can have no knowledge of that. That's right.
But we can believe. Now, what are the alternatives?
The alternative is you believe or you don't believe. Yeah. Now,
what are the consequences?
If you believe, then you're part of God's family. If you don't believe,
you're not part of his family. That's right.
That's important. We assume sometimes or we operate out of this paradigm that
everybody listening to this show is a believer, but that's not necessarily the case.
And so, friend, I can't think of a more important time here on Easter Sunday,
Resurrection Day, for you to ask yourself that question. Do you believe?
Have you accepted Jesus as your Savior?
That's the most important decision any of us can ever make. And if you haven't,
then I would encourage you to get with somebody and get to know what the Bible says. That's right.
And find a pastor or a friend, somebody who is a believer, to investigate these
things. And then read the Word for yourself. The Bible says,
taste and see that the Lord is good.
And whatever kind of trauma or tragedy or massive thing you've been through,
and whatever kind of pain or disappointment you're bringing to this question,
don't fail to ask the question and don't fail to investigate it for yourself.
This is the most important decision you're ever going to make in your life. Right.
Well, and when we talk about the consequences, maybe it's okay to say,
okay, Father, let me in there.
And I say that all the time. I say, Lord, let me just get in the city limits. I'll sweep the streets.
But what does that speak to? The opportunity. Opportunity.
And when you look at our life, I just read recently that it's in Psalms.
I can't tell you the address right now, but our days are numbered.
Our days are three score and ten. That's 70. and if by reason of good health
we live to be 80, our days will be full of woe.
That's right. And sorrow.
So, and then if you compare that,
to eternity. And that's one of the issues probably that we suffer with the most
because we don't have a definition of that.
We can talk because it's infinite. We don't know how long eternity is.
And we've heard all kinds of examples about how long it could be,
but it doesn't matter because there is no time there.
There are no sun and no moon.
In heaven, God is the light. That's right.
And there's no more sorrow there. There's no more weeping. There's no more pain, no more suffering.
That's right. And so that is the opportunity that we're looking for as believers.
And if we're not believers, that doesn't even cross our minds. That's right.
But some of the questions that Jesus posed were astounding.
One was, what if you gain the whole world and lose your own soul?
This is acute for me. I think it's one of those questions that most people have
in their mind at some point, and they think, well, I'll deal with that later.
I've got to finish school. I've got to get this job. I've got to marry that
person. I've got to do this thing.
And then I'll think about the eternal thing. But the problem is,
I live in this world where I run almost weekly or sometimes daily into people
who thought they had a lot more time than they actually did.
We had another family who's going to be burying a child that I had to deal with this week.
And it's never appropriate to assume that you have more time to make such big decisions.
So deal with them now. That's right. Don't put this off. Like the most important
question of your life is discerning what you believe to be true about what happens after this life.
And so don't be like Thomas and refuse to believe anything unless you see it
with your eyes. Although Jesus
said that was good that he was willing to believe. That's right, yes.
But because you're not going to likely encounter the risen Savior in flesh and
blood, you're going to encounter him in your spirit.
Ask the questions. Do the research. Figure this out. And if you need help, send us an email.
You can approach us at contact at drleewarren.com. Tata and I and Lisa will
be happy to investigate your question.
Laura and our assistant will help us and make sure that we reach back out to
you if you need prayer or you have questions about what you believe.
This is, there's not a better day I can think of than Easter Sunday to investigate
such a question. That's right.
It's heavy. It's a big question. And today, today of all days,
may be provoking you to think that way. That's right.
You know, there's two days that we've set aside.
One is Christ's birth, and then one is His resurrection.
But those are the things that are so important. He came.
He came to be like us so we could be like Him.
And God only wants one thing. He wants us home. That's right.
And we're made in his image. And
it's just like, you know, last night I referred to myself as a bonehead.
And then I said, well, I don't have that right.
That's right. And I cannot categorize what I did.
Now, what I did may have been dumb, but it does not indicate that I'm totally dumb. No.
God has created you in his image. So that negative self-talk is something that
we do and get into these habits of doing that dishonors our creator.
That's correct. And so what does that say?
That example that I gave you says this, that whenever you feel and whenever
you know that you've done something or said something that is contradictory
to what God says, stop and say, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What that all speaks to is a posture, a posture of belief,
a posture that says, I cannot do this by myself.
I need you. Help me. And so if you find yourself in a place,
friends, where you find yourself in a place and you're struggling and you can't
see your way out, stop and say, help me. Yeah. Ask for help.
And believe that God will answer you.
Maybe he won't give you the answer that you want, but maybe you know that he's
there with you. That's right.
In the middle of that. Because one, he said he was.
And we know from all of the examples that scripture presents to us that God
is a covenant maker, not a covenant breaker. That's right.
He will not go back on his word. He can't.
And all of the things that we know, and I go back to a very simple statement
that was made by Job to me, and that resonates with me constantly,
I know my redeemer lives. That's right.
How did he know that? Did he see him? By faith he knew it. It's faith,
that's right. And it was his hope. That's right.
I'm going to give you two resources, friends. I think the very best book I've
ever read that, in a very short way, critically examines the historical evidence
for the resurrection of Jesus.
Because you might not think this, if you're not a student of the Word,
you might not realize that the resurrection of Jesus is considered by many scholars,
not just religious scholars, to be one of the most historically verifiable facts in all of history.
And there's good evidence to believe that he actually was resurrected from the
dead. And if so, then the foundation of our faith is solid.
That's right. And so Lee Strobel's book, Is God Real? actually breaks that down
and looks at it from a scholarly standpoint.
He interviews a bunch of experts in these fields. And that'll be a worthy read
for you if you have questions about what you believe.
Is God Real? by Lee Strobel, who's coming back up on the podcast, actually.
You'll hear this on Tuesday on the Spiritual Brain Surgery podcast.
That episode with Lee Strobel was released the day before. on Monday.
So go check it out. I'll put the link in the show notes. The second one is a
40-day Bible study that goes through the book of John called Loved to Life by
Ann Voskamp. It's her newest book, and it's fantastic.
So if you want to take a 40-day opportunity to sit down and think about these
things critically and study them and pray through them, I think that would be very helpful.
I think the Gospel of John leads even the honest doubter to a place of really
being able to make a good decision about who Jesus was.
So, Loved to Life by Ann Boskamp. I'll put both those books in the show notes.
Tata, thank you, as always, for taking a good hard look at a good question.
Like, is it okay to doubt? That's right.
Well, and for every question we have, we have the answer right here.
That's right, in the Word. That's right, in the Word.
And I go back to Thomas even Thomas himself who was not present,
and he heard the testimony of his brethren,
but in his own mind he said he was not there,
he did not see but he did see and Jesus told him very clearly that blessed are
you because you believe you have seen and you have believed that's right but
blessed are those that do not believe it so that that's where we are,
blessed are those who believe and have not seen that's right that's
right and that's where we are that's right and then that's the point we we have
to decide we have to make that decision and it's a choice yeah everything's
a choice that's right well here on easter sunday as we sit by the river and
ponder these things ta-ta if somebody out there is thinking about making such
a choice when should they start start today start today.