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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
Silvercore Podcast 174 Doug Patteson
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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Today I am joined by someone who spent years as a CIA case officer working overseas. Then brought that experience into Hollywood consulting for major studios and helping shape how the intelligence world is shown on the screen. He teaches, he advises and he writes for field ethos, where his stories focus on humility, family, and the hard earned lessons that only come from experience.
He has a passion for emotional intelligence and leadership development. Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Doug Patteson.
[00:00:42] Doug Patteson: Thanks, Travis. Glad to be here and, uh, I glad to have the opportunity to chat with you again.
[00:00:46] Travis Bader: Yeah, I mean we, we got some time to chat on our, uh, last hunting trip over there in, in Alberta.
We're looking for some elk and uh, I was kind of hobbling ar around up the hills and now I've had the, the luxury of surgery. [00:01:00] So, uh, I've, uh, got my leg up and I might adjust a few times through and hopefully the, uh, the pain meds, which I tried to go off yesterday, took one last night. Don't, uh, impair my thinking too, too much more than it's normal.
[00:01:13] Doug Patteson: Well, your hunting season's not over yet, so I'm surprised you didn't wait till a little bit longer to get through. Uh, that for, for the knee.
[00:01:20] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well I've got, uh, I've got a few trips planned, so, uh, it's supposed to be a shot show in Vegas in January and I need, uh, six weeks before I can bed at 90 degrees and getting on a plane.
Six foot six. Yeah, it's gonna be at 90 degrees and uh, might have something happening in March as well, so I figured, well, we had a pretty good hunting season. How about you? How was your season?
[00:01:42] Doug Patteson: It, it was okay. Um, I got out and got to do some bird hunting, which is really my favorite, you know?
Hmm. I
really enjoy, uh, having venison in the freezer, but I just, I love bird hunting kind of above all else because of the action and the movement, and particularly when you're working over good dogs.
Mm-hmm. [00:02:00] So, I, you know, I, I got in some pheasant hunting, I got in some duck hunting, and I, I took a, a pretty decent dough, uh, this year that, that helped, you know, fill the freezer. So Nice. Not, not bad.
[00:02:11] Travis Bader: Do you have your own bird dogs, or are you hunting over others?
[00:02:13] Doug Patteson: No, I, I have a, uh, chocolate lab that does pretty well in, uh, upland game.
I haven't done her on ducks much. Mm-hmm. I hunt with my buddy over his Chesapeake Bay retriever for ducks.
[00:02:25] Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah. Those chocolate labs are supposed to be phenomenal over ducks.
[00:02:29] Doug Patteson: Yes. Yeah. We, we just haven't had a chance to get out there and I'm, I'm always reticent to take my dog, um, with another guy's dog if she doesn't have, uh, good training in the field.
Mm-hmm. And I just
haven't spent enough time in a duck blind with her on my own. So, you know, uh, she sits at home and, and, uh, gets to chase ducks that I throw in the yard for when I get back.
[00:02:50] Travis Bader: Nice. Well, I wouldn't consider myself the most accomplished duck man, but we've got duck hunting 10 minutes from my house, which is kind of unusual for the lower mainland here.
Usually gotta drive [00:03:00] far out. If you wanna do any hunting, we've got, uh, some beautiful properties we have access to. So when you're in Vancouver next during hunting season, you let me know and we'll make it happen.
[00:03:10] Doug Patteson: That sounds great. I'd, I'd, uh, I'd love to do that.
[00:03:13] Travis Bader: Our, um, our elk hunt was fun. That was interesting.
I, uh, I showed up a little late, so I was in Sweden, got off the plane and immediately got on another plane to fly into Alberta. Absolutely jet lagged and, uh, expecting to stay in, uh, a luxurious tent. And, uh, what happened there?
[00:03:32] Doug Patteson: Well, it, it's, it's interesting. Um, a whole bunch of things went wrong, but it didn't matter because we had the right team of guys together that, that recovered from it and continued to go on and have a great hunt.
And, and so, um, there's, there's some good lessons learned there. But what happened was the, the win, which Alberta is kind of notorious for, um, you know, won it, it beat us out of our tents that first [00:04:00] night. We, we got in there, uh, a little bit later than we wanted to be, but it was fine. Set up tents, you know, kind of in the waning light of the day.
Um. Try to use the truck as a wind block for where we'd set it up. But you know, I guess they were, you know. 35 to 50 mile per hour winds blowing all night long against a tent that really wasn't designed as a, as an alpine mountaineering, high wind environment tent.
Mm.
Uh, and so o over the night that tent fought valiantly, but ultimately the, you know, wind fly poles snapped and every metal fitting on the, uh, regular poles bent.
And by two 30 in the morning we were, we were getting beat in the face by the top of the tent and, and decided to, uh, e and e out of there to, uh, a local motel. The net effect of that though, was it got us off to a really late start on opening morning of the elk hunt and
mm-hmm.
By the time we got into the field it was probably almost 10:00 AM uh, 'cause we had needed to catch some sleep just from a safety perspective.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, and, [00:05:00] and there were definitely evidence of others who had beat us into the field that morning. And taken their elk. Um, but overall, it was a, a, a beautiful week in the woods. We saw elk, uh, just didn't see, uh, anything we could shoot. We saw way more mules than I ever would've thought possible, uh mm-hmm.
In, in that area as well as white tail and, and lots of other wildlife. So it was great hunt.
[00:05:23] Travis Bader: Yeah. So were you lying in bed trying to make the decision, like, can we sleep through this or, uh, should we get up and deal with it?
[00:05:30] Doug Patteson: Yeah, I had actually finally fallen asleep and, um, chance woke up and said, yeah, no, we're done.
I'm calling it right now. I'd have probably stayed, um, through the night. 'cause I, I felt like it was gonna, um, I wasn't gonna get wet. I was gonna stay dry. Hmm.
And,
you know, there wasn't an opening in the tent. It didn't tear open.
Mm. So it just
was getting smaller and smaller and smaller, shrinking down. Um, and, you know, at some point in time it, it, I think we would've been fine staying in there.
[00:06:00] But, um, you know, chance made the call and, and we, you know, DEI out of there.
[00:06:04] Travis Bader: Fair enough. Yeah. Well, by the time I got there, we had the luxury of a, uh, being in the basement of the farmhouse and, uh, nice and warm. And so that was, uh, rather, rather luxurious. It was, uh, it was some interesting hunting. I haven't hunted elk like that before.
Uh, it was a good learning experience and, uh, it, it was some great company. I really enjoyed that hunt.
[00:06:25] Doug Patteson: It was, it was great company. Um, you know, it, it, it was, it's a beautiful area.
[00:06:30] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:31] Doug Patteson: Um, I, you know, I think it's, I, I don't, in my first elk hunt, right. So I had not had that experience, the same experience that you'd had.
Um, so, you know, there's a, you know, it's a lot of publicly accessible land with some private patches interspersed in between it. So you, you just don't know who else you're gonna run into out there. And we ran into quite a few hunters that had taken the almost two mile walk in from the road.
Mm-hmm. And
I was pretty impressed actually with, you [00:07:00] know, uh, a lot of those hunters in the, how hard they were willing to work.
And some sometimes here on the East coast. If, if you have a spot you're trying to get to and it's more than 200 yards off the road, most people won't go go much further in than that. So, so true. A number of these hunters worked really hard to get into to where they were. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I, I thought that was really kind of cool to see, but it did mean that there were a lot of other hunters in the woods around.
We were,
[00:07:24] Travis Bader: yeah. You know, I, I got an elk in BC this year and we're in an area far up north and figured that the pressure would be less and, you know, ended up taking an elk in this one area. Very promising. Figured we'd come back and get another elk outta there 'cause it clearly held them. And, uh, buddy who's a better caller than I am, he's calling, we can hear it coming in, playing it back and forth for about an hour.
And in popsie's, two other hunters and good on them, they hunt, hiked all the way in from, uh, from the other end. And, uh. They thought they were playing us, we could [00:08:00] hear the one in the, in the distance. It ended up hightailing it. But uh, we ended up in that same scenario about three more times on that hunt.
And I was like, like, how far do you really have to go to be in a remote area, like right Alaska. Do we have to go to Alaska and then hunt out there? Maybe that's next on our docket.
[00:08:17] Doug Patteson: Hey, caribou.
[00:08:18] Travis Bader: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Doug Patteson: Yeah, that'd be, that'd be neat. You know, one thing that surprised me was, uh, how few people wore blaze orange, um, in the woods and no one, I saw one guy with one panel of Blaze Orange on his backpack that he wore while hiking in, but otherwise nobody had blaze on and it really surprised me.
[00:08:36] Travis Bader: Yeah. In British Columbia and Alberta, I don't know what the other province is, but it's not a requirement for hunting, uh, pheasant. There's gonna be requirements. I wear blaze orange in certain areas, but, uh, I, I think like, so I just came from Sweden and everyone's wearing orange and Yeah, I mean. I, I, we've looked at the pictures, they were highly successful hunts.
It's not like wearing orange makes you less of [00:09:00] a, uh, less of a hunter. Um, I think the theory is, is that if the other hunters can't see you, they won't shoot at you, is what I've heard people say. I don't know. I, I personally, I think having 'em blaze orange is probably not a bad thing.
[00:09:13] Doug Patteson: Yeah. I, I think even if it's just a, to, you know, that's blaze orange.
Mm-hmm. You know, some, something that's gonna catch an eye, you know, before they bring the scope up to their shoulder, you know, rifle to their shoulder and scope to their eye
[00:09:26] Travis Bader: a hundred percent. So, okay, let, let's chat about the ccia A 'cause I'm really curious about that. We didn't talk much about this. We had a couple interesting stories, which I will not repeat here, but we, um, what, what was the road like that got you into the CIA and then what did your career in the CIA look like?
[00:09:48] Doug Patteson: Yeah. So, um. Uh, I went in, in the late eighties, right? I was, I was in undergrad trying to figure out what I wanted to do, didn't really have a good sense or idea of the things I wanted to do. Um, but I knew I had a [00:10:00] desire to serve in some capacity. My grandfather had been a fighter pilot in, in World War ii.
My other grandfather had been a naval intelligence officer in World War ii. I had something in there that, that was drawing me towards that, but I didn't know whether I was gonna go in the military or some other, other way. And I, I, I kinda looked at both paths, um, in my senior year of college and ultimately, uh, found myself in an interview, um, that I've talked about elsewhere in time.
Um, that, uh. Was somewhat a hostile interview from the CIA, where the, the interviewer was not very impressed with me or my background. And, and largely because he was looking for a different type of, of person than the role I was trying to, to get as a case officer.
Hmm. Um,
but, but fortunately he saw something in me that put me through the process, even though he told me he didn't think personally I would make it through.
Hmm. And,
and I'd be, you know, went through a kind of a nine month interview process, uh, with lots of psychological exams and physical [00:11:00] exams and tests and so on and so forth, before ultimately getting hired on as a clandestine, meaning undercover case officer. Um, does, you know whose role was to go out overseas and recruit and run, uh, intelligence assets?
Against a wide range of targets, counter-terrorism, you know, Russia, China, the, all of those things.
[00:11:21] Travis Bader: So why do you think he didn't think you would make it? What was it in you that wasn't impressing him and do you think maybe he was just trying to push you a little bit? This say, I'll prove you wrong.
[00:11:32] Doug Patteson: No, it's, it is, it is a great question.
Um, so he had come from the analyst. Side of the house at the agency. And there's a, there's a really, um, strong competition between the analyst side and the collection side, which is where the case officer sit operations side about who are, um, you know, the, the, uh, more important arm of the agency, right.
Analyst process, the intelligence that's collected, and then ultimately take it to the policy makers, [00:12:00] including the president.
Hmm. The
collection folks on the operations side, they go out and steal the secrets, they recruit the spies and run them.
Hmm. So
the, the analysts are more akin to academics and tend to look down at, you know, the collection and operations practitioners in the field as being lesser folks, kind of knuckle dragers.
Got it. And of course, the collection folks tend to look down at the analyst side going, well, you guys don't know how the real world operates and, and you guys are just a bunch of nerds, you know, doing it. So they. You know, both look at each other and in reality, both are absolutely necessary to accomplish the mission of the agency.
Mm-hmm. So he came from that analyst, uh, background and was really looking for analysts and, and, um, you know, scientists and engineers. And I showed up with a resume and a transcript that had a 2.98 GPA on a 4.0 scale, and told him, you know, when he asked me about it, that my focus had been on beer and girls and not necessarily in that order.
And so, um, you know, the probably something in, in the Flippancy with which I answered some of his [00:13:00] questions, um, maybe the cockiness that I carried, uh, around that time of my life as well, came across to him a as, uh, um, you know, uh, something he didn't connect with. But it also made him recognize that perhaps there was a connection to the operations field, which obviously it, it turned out there was.
[00:13:19] Travis Bader: You know, uh, having had the opportunity to chat with people from a diverse background and different special forces operations and intelligence areas, it's the people who can think outside the box who have this sort of irreverent nature to them that, uh, I find seem to really thrive well in those operational environments because they're not, uh, they're not stuck when something happens there.
There's always a different out, there's always their mind's thinking, uh, differently than how most people would think, and that, that probably served you quite well.
[00:13:52] Doug Patteson: Yeah, I think it did. And, and, and it really was a different mindset than what he was specifically, you know, looking for, um, [00:14:00] in, in the more academic side of, of the house.
And that was fine. Right. I, I, I wouldn't want it to be anywhere that wasn't the right fit for my nature and, and my, um, skillsets.
[00:14:09] Travis Bader: So since you went through the application process, but now you've gotta go through a more covert process from what I understand. I did a little bit of research. They bend you on paper anyways, and, uh, then you got your, uh, uh, your official, you're not approved, but you got a, uh, another process to go through.
I think you mentioned that on, on the Jack Carr podcast.
[00:14:31] Doug Patteson: That's right, yeah. The, um, uh, the interview process that I'd started with had been an overt process. Uh, meaning, you know, it was CIA on campus and, you know, people signed up for interview slots and, um. And so the role that I was gonna be pursuing was not in that overt space.
It was a covert role. And so they had to kind of close that loop, um, in order to allow that other process to happen. And so, um, you know, [00:15:00] that, that all got taken care of. And, and I jumped into that covert process, uh, which meant that I was interviewing for a different kind of government role, uh, that I could tell people I was interviewing for.
Um, they just didn't know, you know, what it actually was.
[00:15:14] Travis Bader: So that's kind of interesting. So you had to basically live with this secret over your head the entire time. You're, you're with the agency, did you?
[00:15:21] Doug Patteson: That's right. Yeah. I had a, I had a specific role that I could tell people that I did. Right. And, and I legitimately did that work also.
Mm-hmm. Um,
but, but it, you know, very few people, um, were kind of read in onto what I was actually doing. In fact, only my, uh, my parents and my wife's parents were read in on that. Um, nobody, my sis, my siblings didn't know. My wife's siblings didn't know, et cetera.
[00:15:46] Travis Bader: How does that affect your relationships with your friends and your family having these sort of secrets that you're holding?
[00:15:52] Doug Patteson: It can be challenging, I think. Um, actually one of the reasons we ultimately decided to leave my wife ended up [00:16:00] joining CIA as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, was that we got tired of lying. Mm-hmm. We, we recognized the reasons and we understood the, the justification behind it didn't actually have a problem with that.
But I do tend to believe that, uh, lying, even when well justified will change you over time, right? Mm-hmm. It causes little cracks in your foundation, your moral foundation that, uh, I think are difficult to shore up constantly before they just create, you know, bigger issues elsewhere in your life. And, you know, to those that have been able to do it for an entire career, I really, you know, admire what their, their.
Their ability to do that without undermining who they are for us. Eventually we just decided, you know, among a bunch of other factors that we just were tired of, of having to lie all of the time about what we, what we did and where we worked.
[00:16:53] Travis Bader: Did you grow up in an environment of secrecy or was that new to you when you got on with the agency?[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Doug Patteson: Yeah, no, it absolutely was new to me. I, I had no real experience with that other than, you know, lying to my parents about where I was going. Like mm-hmm. The, the traditional aspects of kind of teenage and young adulthood secrecy where you keep things, you know, uh, to yourself maybe, um, you know, as a self-preservation mechanism, but no, you know, I had no experience with, you know, secrecy at, at a corporate level.
[00:17:26] Travis Bader: What do you think would surprise somebody the most, who's not used to that? What would surprise the young you the most after having been indoctrinated into.
[00:17:35] Doug Patteson: I think, I think what surprised me and, and was as it is a very specific example, um, you know, you, you regularly go through security investigations that include polygraphs and things like that.
And, and one of the things they regularly, um, interview you about is lifestyle choices you make. Mm-hmm. And I remember, um, you know, one of the interviewers saying, look, we don't care if [00:18:00] you cheat on your spouse, we just really care if you lie to us about it.
Hmm. And
so for me, what surprised me was that, that that would be okay.
Mm-hmm. That,
that, that it would be okay for somebody to make that what I viewed as a, a significantly negative moral choice.
Mm-hmm.
And that would be okay as long as you just didn't lie to them about it.
Mm-hmm. And I,
and I realize at the, at the very basic level, um, they're, they care about it because if you lie to them, lies can be used to manipulate you, you know, as a motivation.
Sure. To, because people tend to be self-preservation oriented. So if somebody finds out you're having an affair and you're lying to the government about it, then they can use that, you know, as a, as a coercive tool against you.
Hmm.
And, but if, but that's, that power's taken away if you've told the government about it, right?
Mm-hmm. But,
but in my mind that, um, that. The more, the real [00:19:00] moral question there was what would cause, you know, what would make it okay for you to cheat on your spouse anyway, that's supposed to be your most trusted relationship, a hundred that you have. And, and so I, I, in my mind, they should be more worried about that than even just the lying about it.
Because if you're willing to do that, what else are you also willing to do? Where, where are your lines drawn and what are your basis for it? And so that, that really surprised me that, that, you know, I mean, I, I got it at the human level, but, but also it just was a, a, a, a little bit disappointing, um, as I thought about it.
[00:19:34] Travis Bader: Yeah, I can see that.
[00:19:35] Doug Patteson: I, I don't wanna tar everybody that that's there with that kind of making bad moral choices brush and, and mm-hmm. You know, you, I, I haven't ever walked in their shoes, so I don't know what has led folks that have done that to, to, to make their decisions on it. Um, but it, it, to me, it was the corporate approach to almost sanctioning that as long as you just tell us about it, it's fine.
You know, there, [00:20:00] there are plenty of opportunities overseas when you're working as a, as an operations officer or a case officer to engage in bad decision behaviors. Mm-hmm. Um, you, you know, long hours where you can't tell your spouse what's going on and, you know, lots of money and lots of CD places and, and so it almost felt like an endorsement of that lifestyle as long as you maintained appropriate production and you didn't lie to them about, you know, the extracurriculars.
[00:20:25] Travis Bader: I mean, it's, I I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but it's probably a tool that you've used when, uh, when generating assets. Would that be? So, I, I wonder if that just becomes commonplace and they look at it and they say, well, you know, I mean, if, if Doug's gonna go and do these things, I mean, we've got that extra little layer of control and security now.
Sure. It's just a weird little secret of, of world of secrets.
[00:20:48] Doug Patteson: Yeah, so, you know, a wilderness of mirror as, uh, mirrors as, uh, um, uh, James Jesus Angleton call it the, um, but yeah, so that was, you know, that was one of the reasons and it just eventually wore [00:21:00] enough at us, um, combined with, you know, it's a hard life on families.
A, most marriages don't survive it. Um, you know, I think about 2% of the marriages, uh, from my class of officers that entered, actually survived a career there. Um, so it's pretty brutal on that front anyway. And we just decided we wanted to stay married to each other, uh, rather than, you know, commit to that career.
[00:21:23] Travis Bader: Did you meet your wife, uh, in the agency or did she become part of the agency after meeting you?
[00:21:28] Doug Patteson: She became part of the agency after she met me. We, we met outside. Um, and in fact, I mean, our, our relationship started off with a lie, right? Mm. Because I, this was a girl I met in the bar. I couldn't actually tell her what I did, uh, until I, you know, reached a decision point going, oh, well this is more serious than just a girl in a bar.
This could be somebody I'd spend the rest of my life with.
Hmm.
Um, and so I had to, I had to roll that back with her, um, which was one of my first real experiences with thinking through, okay, what is the consequences of a [00:22:00] significant lie like this with people you, you care about? Mm-hmm. Um, it, it was an unpleasant evening to, to say the least, um, when I did that.
But, you know, the, the re relationship survived that we, we married and moved overseas, and while we were overseas, she joined as well, and turned out she had a pretty good knack for the business as well.
[00:22:21] Travis Bader: Is that common? I mean, there's another guy going around, ante or whatever his name is, and his wife was a, um, uh, in the agency as well.
Is that common to, uh, have spouses, uh, just, uh, try and keep the secrets in house?
[00:22:36] Doug Patteson: I, I don't know that it's trying to keep the secrets in-house, but you know, the government, in the government, it is sometimes budget conscious. Mm. And so when you have, um, tandem spouses, you get a two for one on, you know, relocation costs and, and things like that.
Sure. Um, it does make the security process easier. Right. The background investigations are easier as well, because a lot of that work's already done. Mm-hmm. So it, you [00:23:00] know, it's, it's fairly common. Um, and, you know, at some level they're, they're happy when people date inside or marry inside, um, because you, you've already got people that are accustomed to maintaining secrecy, maintaining, you know, um, you know, need to know basis, et cetera, et cetera.
So it does quite often make it easy.
[00:23:22] Travis Bader: So if you're out there recruiting assets, what would that look like?
[00:23:28] Doug Patteson: Uh, you know, you're responding to, um, targets, uh, you know, requests for information, uh, pri you know, intelligence, uh, priorities from Washington. And so, uh, you're looking for people who have information that would allow us to respond to those intelligence priorities.
And, you know, the goal is to basically meet those people and develop a relationship with them, and ultimately convince them to provide secrets to you, um, that you can then pass on in [00:24:00] response to those intelligence priorities. And there's a whole bunch of ways that may take place. Um, but it's, you know, it's not dissimilar from, you know, a dating relationship in the sense of you're building close personal ties often, um, you're.
Understanding their motivations, their emotions, what drives them, um, before you ultimately make a pitch and, and get them into some form of, of a, a relationship doing it. And there again, there's, there's lots of variants of this, lots of, you know, flavors like an ice cream shop of how it may play out. Um, but ultimately the goal is to gain access to classified information or secret information in either foreign governments or non-state actors, right?
Think terrorist mm-hmm. Groups, et cetera, uh, criminal groups in order to provide that information back to Washington. Um, you know, in response to intelligence priorities.
[00:24:51] Travis Bader: So, I mean, you're asking somebody to, to do something which could cost them their life. Yes. It could cost them their livelihood, it could [00:25:00] cost them their, their relationships.
Like, like there's a high cost value associated with what you're asking these people to do. Uh, did you find that it was, uh, that oftentimes you wouldn't be successful in, in your approach, or by the time that you started making the pitch? You're pretty sure you're, uh, you're on the right track with somebody?
[00:25:19] Doug Patteson: I, I'd say generally, for most officers, by the time you get to the pitch stage, you, you already know what the answer's gonna be.
Mm.
Um, or you've totally misread a situation and, and you made some mistakes. Um, but generally, you know, it's, it, it's like, you know, asking somebody out you, like, you, you know, or asking, asking the woman you've been dating to marry you, you probably should, you know Sure what our answer's gonna be before you buy a ring and, you know, get that on your knee.
Not always Right. Hopefully, hopefully. But hopefully you, you've got that, you know, figured out. Similarly, you, you probably know what the answer's gonna be. And in, in many cases. [00:26:00] The actual pitch is really just the formality of making it a real relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, but, but sometimes it fails, um, you know, sometimes they, they don't want to want it to be formal.
They're happy with it to be informal. Mm-hmm. Um, it really just depends on, on the situation, um, and, and what your, what your goals are and who they are and what their motivations are.
[00:26:23] Travis Bader: So would you say it's more of an art form or more of a science that, uh, when you're reading these people and you're looking for the cues and seeing if they're being deceptive or truthful, uh, how, how much would you put on art?
How much would you, uh, contribute to science.
[00:26:38] Doug Patteson: That's a great question. I'm not a psychologist, so I think a lot of psychologists would lump it largely into the science realm. Um, and because it's people and everything about it is people, I would, my gut would be to lump it into the art form, but I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
It's, you know, if you have a good [00:27:00] understanding of psychology and the science behind people's decision making, you're probably gonna be better, you know, situated for that sort of, um, work than somebody who just goes on, you know, their gut and Sure. You know, just thinks of it as an art form. And so I, you know.
I think one of the keys to success in this space as a case officer is to be a learner and, and really to kind of dig into the whys and, you know, so, so you ultimately spend the bulk of your career, I think, blending the science and the art in order to be successful.
[00:27:32] Travis Bader: Gotcha. I should imagine there's a fair bit of training that you received in order to be able to do this.
Yep. Um, are, are there things that you use today in your everyday life that, uh, that you learned? Well, with the agency,
[00:27:46] Doug Patteson: it's interesting. I mean, a hundred percent there are, um, I don't know that I could put words to them in the way that they were taught to me then.
Hmm.
Um, because I don't think, I think I fundamentally really didn't have the [00:28:00] maturity when I went in to grasp all that was being taught to me.
It took years of marinating on it for some of it to kind of bubble up and go, oh yeah, that's useful or that this, that works.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and I think I was very. In those early years in a very self-centered person.
Hmm. Um,
meaning that if, if I, you know, I wanted to recruit an asset because I wanted to get promoted and I wanted to get a feather in my cap, and I wanted to, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And in reality, some of the other officers who I, I would argue were more successful than me started out, um, with a little more maturity and being significantly more others focused.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and
I, I think, because I think at the end of the day, when you're self-centered and overly focused on yourself, people see that, they read that they may not know what it is, but it's, it, it can build a wall, not break down a wall, whereas when your other's focused, um, it, it builds walls.
So, so you're taught, for example, how to, uh, understand people's [00:29:00] motivations and what drives them, and then to provide solutions to the things that are their problems.
Hmm.
And like, so that's a very useful skillset, but you can apply it for self-centered purposes or you can apply it for other centered purposes.
And so I think, you know, in my case, my early years I was trying to solve their problem so I could recruit them to get promotion rather than trying to solve their problem. 'cause their problem needed to be solved. And then as a result of this strength of this relationship, the mm-hmm. You know, the intelligence collection would be better, the, you know, so and so forth.
And, and so I think those, um, I, and it, you know, it's semantic difference, right? Splitting a very fine line, but it's kinda like the line between cockiness and confidence. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Um, we all know. It, it's hard to define it, but we know we like confident people more than we like cocky people.
Mm-hmm.
And the cockiness is often rooted in lack of self-confidence.
And confidence is rooted in confidence.
Mm-hmm. And,
but they're, they're very closely related concepts. And so I think you could use some of these [00:30:00] tools for self purposes, uh, and use them. Okay. But really when you began to use 'em the way they were intended to be used, which is to accomplish something bigger and something greater, then they're more successful.
And so those sorts of concepts are things that I've really kept with me. Um, thinking about emotional intelligence, thinking about being other centered, um, it, it's kind of inculcated all of my leadership development, both of self, but then other of the other people I lead even in my current roles.
[00:30:31] Travis Bader: You know, people talk about emotional, emotional intelligence a fair bit.
Um, what does it mean to you to be emotionally intelligent?
[00:30:39] Doug Patteson: To me it means radical self-awareness. With transparency towards others leading to accountability.
[00:30:47] Travis Bader: Hmm.
[00:30:48] Doug Patteson: So I have to know myself well enough. I have to give enough visibility to you and then invite you in to hold me accountable so that the end [00:31:00] goal is I'm better, right?
That, that I grow and improve in soft skills, hard skills, whatever the focus may be. 'cause it may be different with you than it, than with somebody else I've brought in to the circle, right? One may be very hard skills oriented, you know, one may be very soft skills leadership oriented, but to me it's, it's, um, radical self-awareness.
Like, you know yourself really well, uh, you're, you're willing to open yourself up to others and allow them to hold you accountable because you trust them to help you be better.
[00:31:36] Travis Bader: So that opens up a whole box of other things like, sure, the old, the old adage, you don't know what you don't know. Like how do you know your blind spots in the areas where, where you need improvement on if you're completely blind to it to begin with.
And how do you build that trust with others or find others that you can share that level of trust with, particularly if you're working in an environment where everyone's [00:32:00] encouraged to misrepresent the truth. If I'm gonna use a lawyer euphemism here. Sure.
[00:32:06] Doug Patteson: Well, I, I don't think I was very emotionally intelligent inside.
Uh, I, I don't think, um, many of us were certainly in the early stages of our careers. I think that grows with maturity and making mistakes. Right. And at the end of the day, I think failure is a much greater teacher than success. And you know, I, I think about even watching my kids as they grew up, you know, in athletics, you know, they were, they were always kids who were naturally better gifted than them.
Uh, and my kids had to work harder. They ended up learning more because they failed a lot more than some of the kids that were just naturally gifted at some of these sports, who really also didn't know what it was like to work hard because their natural giftings aligned with, you know, the outcomes they wanted.
So they never pushed beyond some of those outcomes. Mm-hmm. The reality, they could have taken those natural giftings and [00:33:00] gone significantly further if they had enough self-awareness to go, oh no, I need to apply work ethic along with this natural gifting. And then that's, you know, accelerant on flames.
Did
[00:33:12] Travis Bader: you fail?
[00:33:13] Doug Patteson: All the time. Yeah. I, I failed. Uh, I, you know, I, I failed professionally. I can think of specific examples where I've made mistakes and failed and learned from those. Um, I, I failed academically. Right. You know, I delivered that 2.98. There's a lot more to that story. I started out with a four. Oh.
Um, and, and so, you know, to, to take a four oh down that low over time almost was harder than bringing it up. Um, and, and so the, the difference, and I think this is a key to emotional intelligence also, is having a learner's posture. But it took failure for me to learn that I needed to have a learner's posture.
[00:33:56] Travis Bader: How did you keep your moral compass calibrated [00:34:00] when you are constantly having to live in these lies and you're dealing with other people who you might not align with morally, ethically, but you have to work with them so that you can extract information?
[00:34:14] Doug Patteson: Sure. Two very specific things. Faith and my wife, um, you know, my wife Susan, had incredibly high expectations for, uh, for what a man was.
And they were rooted directly in kind of watching her own dad be a husband and a father, you know, and, and her family. And so she had similar expectations for me and she was good at communicating those expectations to me. She was good at calling me on my bs, uh, but doing so in ways that that. You know, showed that she wanted me to be better or provided a path towards, towards being better.
So it was, it was an honest, uh, and caring level of accountability [00:35:00] in there that made me want to be better. So the combination of, of faith, which we both strongly held, and that was a foundation for our marriage, and then her, um, holding me accountable to, to a man that she knew I could be, even if I didn't know what that looked like yet.
Because I was, you know, we were, we were 23 and 24 years old when we got married, right? Mm-hmm. My, my frontal lobe was a decade away from being fully developed.
[00:35:28] Travis Bader: Yeah. I, I argue mine is still a decade away. Right. Um, you say held, when you talked to faith in the past tense, you, you held faith. You still do,
[00:35:39] Doug Patteson: but Yeah.
Absolutely. Still, still do. Um, in, in fact, um, most of the viewers won't know this, but my wife recently passed away. Yes. Um, and, you know, I, I, um, I don't think I could have gotten through that or not for the, the faith, uh, it, you know, a deeply held Christian faith [00:36:00] that she and I, um, held throughout our marriage and I continued to hold today.
[00:36:05] Travis Bader: That was an. That was something that, uh, is interesting to me. Uh, yep. And I didn't know if it was something, it's not in my notes, it wasn't something I was gonna be bringing up in, in here. But since, since you, you did bring it up, um, your, your wife had early onset Alzheimer's, is that correct?
[00:36:26] Doug Patteson: She did. She had early onset Alzheimer's.
She was diagnosed in 2020 and then passed in February of 25. So five year, five year journey. That's
[00:36:36] Travis Bader: pretty
[00:36:36] Doug Patteson: fast. It was, it was, it was very fast. Um, it, it was, um, I, I think they say the average for early onset is between three and seven years, um, from diagnosis to passing, so Right. Kind of in the middle of, of that range.
Uh, she was 50, 58 years old, so, so quite young. And for the, for the viewers that don't know, this [00:37:00] early onset is really just kind of an arbitrary definition of, that's time bounded at the age of 65. So any, any Alzheimer's diagnosis that comes after 65 is considered Alzheimer's. And anything that's diagnosed prior to 65 is called early onset
[00:37:17] Travis Bader: Now.
She was pretty brilliant actually. She was, she worked on the, uh, the bin Laden case too, didn't she?
[00:37:23] Doug Patteson: She did. She worked, she was on the very first Bin Laden team, uh, in the, uh, mid nineties. Mm-hmm.
[00:37:28] Travis Bader: Very
[00:37:28] Doug Patteson: early on in, in the hunt for bin Laden. She did that for, um, a few years and was, was quite good at what she did.
It was a different role in the operations directorate than I had. I kind of describe it more as a putting puzzle pieces together. Um, but she, you know, the role now would largely be what would be considered a targeter. You know, somebody who goes after specific targets and gathers all the information and learns them and, and helps, um, you know, kind of identify ways to pursue that target.
[00:37:57] Travis Bader: So what advice would you have for somebody else [00:38:00] who finds themself in a similar situation where they've got a spouse or loved one who's going through something similar? What, what have you learned that you think would be useful to pass on?
[00:38:10] Doug Patteson: Yeah, that's a great question and I need to spend some time thinking about that, but I had the real benefit of talking to my son and then girlfriend about this at the front end of this.
Um, and you know, in the process, girlfriend became fiance and then fiance became wife, um, and. What, what I talked to them about was the idea that in marriage, um, you know, ev it's easy for everybody when it's easy. Mm. Right. You know, love is great. It, you know, the, the early days with, you know, uh, everybody is excited to be with one another.
And, um, you know, it's, it's all, you know, rose colored glasses and rainbows and puppies and, you know, ice cream. And it's, it's easy for everybody, every relationship when it's easy. The difference is what happens when it's hard [00:39:00] and in every relationship it will get hard too. There's no question about that.
So, I wanna know when, you know, I, I'll transition a little bit into the business world when I'm hiring people. One of the main questions I ask them about is a series of questions that dives into how they handle things when it's really hard.
Mm-hmm. And
because. You know, character matters in these situations, whether dealing with a significant illness with a spouse, or the risk of losing a child, or, you know, failure at work.
And, um, character really shows itself when under pressure. It doesn't really show itself when things are going well.
Mm-hmm. And
so to get through a, a significant illness or, or, um, uh, issue like, you know, Susan's I think really was a, a, a character test, right? Could I honor the promises I've made to her, you know, when we were 23 and 24 and it was easy to make those promises, [00:40:00] right?
Mm-hmm. Till death to us part in sickness and in health. And, and I, I've seen people I know. Choose not to honor that and walk away from that. Mm-hmm. And so when talking to, you know, my family and my kids and, and others, I've said it's easy for everybody. It's when it's easy. But what matters is what they do when it's hard, where they go to.
And so my kids got a real gift, right? My son got to see how his future wife was showing up for him in this tremendously difficult time. He, um, she got to see how this family that she wanted to join was rallying or breaking apart as the, you know, case might be. Um, and we rallied. Mm-hmm. So she, she got a sense of what we are gonna do or where do we go to when times are hard, what drives us and keeps us together.
And, you know, I said to them, I said, as hard as this situation is, it's actually an incredible gift for you two as you're looking at the decision of, you know, picking your life partner. Because there will be times when it is [00:41:00] incredibly hard when that character is, is tested. Right. And you know. Most bottles don't show a crack until you pressurize it.
Right. And, but when you put pressure on that bottle, then it starts to leak or breaks. Mm-hmm. And, and so you don't get to test your relationship sometimes in a meaningful way before you, you get to this point. So, um, you know, it's, it's, it's thinking through that the character issue and then I would add to it, um, the main thing is you choose, right?
I, I fundamentally, um, believe that, that a marriage or a relationship like that is built on the choice to love somebody every day. That that love really isn't an emotion. Because if you think of love solely as an emotion, then emotions ebb and flow. They wax and wane, right? Yeah. And an emotion is never gonna be enough to carry you through a valley.
That emotion you feel on a mountaintop experience [00:42:00] often isn't gonna be enough to carry you through that really, really long valley.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so, but what, what can is the choice to say I'm in a valley, but I know valleys have exits and I know valleys have, you know, hills that come out of them. So I'm gonna choose to continue to press on through this valley till I get to that hill.
And I believe that feelings follow actions so that that choice to love this person, even when the emotion isn't there, will carry you through, uh, those challenges.
[00:42:30] Travis Bader: Yeah, I think that's beautifully put and I think that's something that can help people who are in a, in a situation themselves. Realizing that, uh, the choice is theirs.
It's that old Viktor Frankl quote. Uh, the one thing you can't take from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do. To me, the last of life's great freedoms is one's ability to choose your own attitude in any given circumstance. Right? But it all, it all comes down to you then that choice that you make, and that's, that's your, that's your power.
That's the last thing that you have.
[00:42:59] Doug Patteson: [00:43:00] That's exactly right. Yeah. It, how you approach it, your attitude and the choice you make in, to respond to the circumstances, good or bad. Mm-hmm. Those are the two things you can own.
[00:43:09] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:10] Doug Patteson: Right? So,
[00:43:13] Travis Bader: yeah, I remember, um, and my wife when she was in labor for, uh, 27 some odd hours and the, it wasn't going the way it should be going, and, uh, uh.
She's in a lot of pain. And I kept saying, Hey, hey, look at this is, this is one day outta your life. How do you wanna look back and be remembered for this? Do you want to look back? 'cause she had this whole idea on her birthing plan and what she wanted to do. And, and then things were getting difficult and she wanted to change her mind.
And I said, you do what you wanted to do, but it's your choice. And how do you wanna look back and be remembered and think of your grandma? How would she deal with these things? And you hold her in high regard. And it's those little choices, that little bit extra that we put in every day that seems to separate the ordinary [00:44:00] from the extraordinary.
And uh, yeah. I like how you put that.
[00:44:04] Doug Patteson: Well, and I don't want anybody to get the misimpression that it was easy. Right. Making that choice is not easy. No. But it was the only choice in my mind.
Mm-hmm.
And having the attitude isn't easy. Right. And, and I failed a lot. Like there were times when my temper got the best of me, or my frustration, and I didn't respond the way I should have responded, you know, in the midst of a hard situation as, as her illness was progressing.
But there was a new day, the next day I could sit down with her and, and apologize for what I'd said or how frustrated I'd gotten and, and start all over so that, you know, that radical transparency and accountability with her never went away.
Mm. Right.
And I still trusted her with my failure, that it wasn't gonna change how she [00:45:00] viewed me.
Mm-hmm. Right.
She never saw me as less human because I failed in the midst of this hard thing because I owned it. And then the next day worked on being better about whatever it was, you know, that had caused that, that failure and to choose to continue to love her and honor the promises that we'd made to each other.
[00:45:17] Travis Bader: Yeah. That's powerful. Um, that wasn't easy. No. And, and I think a lot of times people look at it and they say, oh man, okay, well, I failed, I fell. And then they look at themselves as the person who fell or as the failure. And it's never too late to stop, regroup, and choose a more desirable course of action.
Doesn't matter. And I, I would tell that to my kids all the time, like, I was raised, you know, in for a penny and for a pound. Okay, we come this far, I guess, I guess we're in it. Here we go. No, no. If all of a sudden the anger subsides, if all of a sudden the situation in your head or whatever changes, it's never too late to stop, regroup, and choose a more desirable course of action.
And I, I think there's, there's [00:46:00] power in that. Knowing that falling doesn't mean that you're a faller, doesn't mean that you're a failure.
[00:46:06] Doug Patteson: Yeah. And, and I, but I do think there are people that define themselves by the failure as opposed to defining themselves by the learning that came from the failure.
Mm-hmm. And.
You know, there, some of my friends may disagree with me on this, but I think I have a gift of forgetting the failures. That's good. Once, once I've learned from them, that's a healthy thing to have. So I, I, I, I try not to let it weigh me down.
Mm-hmm.
And try to, what's the lesson I can learn from it?
How quickly can I move on and, and, and go through this? And, but I mean, learning it in a real sense, like it can't be, you know, just a, you know, a, a shallow learning. It's, it's gotta be real. But then once I've learned from it, it's, it's, it's not as if it never happened, but it doesn't, it doesn't have any ownership of my brain
anymore.
Right. Mm. It doesn't weigh me down. It's not baggage I'm carrying in my pack. [00:47:00] It's, it's gone because it served, its its purpose. And I will have people remind me of some of the situations and I'll legitimately have forgotten about it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I've moved on yet I, I have friends who that's a really challenging aspect of life for them is the, the ability to move on from that and, and not let it weigh them down as a, um, you know, definition of who they are.
[00:47:26] Travis Bader: Well, why do you think you've got the ability to, uh, move on from that and not define yourself where other people might have that challenge?
[00:47:33] Doug Patteson: I'd love to say it's something that I did intentionally, but I, I don't, I don't know that I know why.
Okay.
Right. Um, and I'm probably, I probably think I'm better at it than I am.
Um, so I'll just, I'll throw that out there, you know, open to others that know me well, correcting me on it. Yeah. Um, but I, I've just found it very, very helpful because I think I know myself pretty well. Mm-hmm. And I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out, I, [00:48:00] I live in a world of, uh, of the way I assess things as a good, better, best model.
Right. And. So my kids will tell you that I'm not always great at recognizing success or achievement because I, I wanna look at what can be done better with something. Yes. And I've had to be very, very intentional at coming back to going, no, that where you are is great. This is, this is awesome. And then waiting sometime before going, okay, now how do we do a critical, you know, a, a r on this and figure out what we didn't do well and how we can improve on it.
Mm-hmm. Because if you're not wired that way, it can be a very disheartening approach to have somebody automatically just come in and rip it apart, looking for how you can make it better.
[00:48:41] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:42] Doug Patteson: Right. And, and so I've had to tone that down in working with others in a way that I wouldn't try and tone it down on myself.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because they're not me. They react differently to, to feedback. And some folks need that more positive feedback before they can hear any, any critical feedback. But, but my [00:49:00] model is to go, okay, good is good, but better is better. And best is best. So how do we, how do we move anything we're trying to do from good to better, to best.
That's not to say everything has to go through that, but mm-hmm. You know, to be intentional about some of that when it matters.
[00:49:14] Travis Bader: Well, that mindset can lead to not celebrating your wins, to always looking at the next thing on the horizon to, um, I, I know for myself, it's something that I work really hard on, is to stop and celebrate.
Recognize what a win is, and try and celebrate that win. Make an event out of it. Have a meal, do something with the family, because otherwise you're just constantly on that treadmill striving. Yep. And there's always that false peak in the next peak. I'm not great at that. No, I'm not. I'm not either. And it's something I'm working, I know that's a
[00:49:45] Doug Patteson: weakness of mine.
[00:49:46] Travis Bader: Yeah.
[00:49:47] Doug Patteson: Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:49:48] Travis Bader: Yeah. Uh, but it can also lead to, it can lead to burnout. It can lead to exhaustion. Is that something that you've had to deal with?
[00:49:57] Doug Patteson: I
[00:49:57] Travis Bader: think it
[00:49:57] Doug Patteson: is. I think, um, [00:50:00] uh, I. I, I'm, I'm fairly driven most of the time anyway. Um, but there absolutely, it, it can lead to, to burnout. Um, I'm fortunate that I've got some men that, you know, I've worked with over the, over the years that I surround myself with that kind of help point out some of those signs to me and, and force me to, to step back and that hold me accountable, um, on some of these things.
And I'm grateful to them for that.
[00:50:28] Travis Bader: Hmm. Yeah. It's good to, to have a, uh, a strong friend group or su Yes. Support group that you could be honest with who know, who know where you're at. And not many people have that. We, we use that, the
[00:50:41] Doug Patteson: analogy of iron sharpening iron, right? Sure. And, and so I do approach that with them, you know, in that sense.
But one of the interesting aspects that I think people forget about any of these analogies, whether it's pruning or, you know, iron sharpening, iron or pressure testing or whatever, um, you know, when, when you sharpen a saw blade.
Hmm.
[00:51:00] You're removing metal, you're generating heat. Sparks fly. So the idea of iron sharpening iron is, is actually a pretty abrasive process.
Sometimes that requires deep trust between the two parties because metal's removed from both, right? Mm-hmm. Nobody comes out of it unchanged on either side. Correct. And, and so I think people forget that sometimes, that those concepts of allowing yourself to be held accountable by people that you trust, they can be unpleasant or difficult processes to, to get through.
But they serve a really robust purpose, which is that now I've got a sharp saw that I can go use that saw for what it needs to be used for. Or, you know, I've, you know, I love the pruning analogy, right? I, I, I grow apples and, and peaches and, and blueberries and I always have this choice to make of, do I want big trees or big blueberry bushes, or do I want big apples and big blueberries?
[00:51:59] Travis Bader: Mm. [00:52:00] Because you, you can't get both. No. All the energy's gonna be put into one or the other. Are they growing the tree or growing the apple? Correct. And,
[00:52:08] Doug Patteson: you know, you, when you prune a tree, you're taking a quarter to a third of the growth out of that tree. That's a lot of that tree. Mm-hmm. That's a lot of removal.
Mm-hmm.
Right? And, and so likewise, we've gotta do the same to ourselves. Right. But, but it's, it's, you know, cutting off. Part of your life can be an incredibly painful thing, uh, even if it does serve a, a bigger purpose. And so figuring out how to do that when you need to do that and why you're doing it is, is really important.
But if you don't do it like you have to do it o other, otherwise you're gonna be this, you know, mess of, of a man who doesn't really know what he wants to do or be.
[00:52:54] Travis Bader: Did you find that you had to go through periods of, um, pruning things or people out of your life? [00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Doug Patteson: Yes, absolutely. Pruning, you know, it's pruning behaviors, uh, pruning people, pruning, uh, desires, pruning, um, uh, comparisons.
I mean, all, all of those things, right? Um, being intentional and I think you can't do it. Without another set of eyes there, like, uh, you know, the, the apple tree can't prune itself. The farmer has to prune it, right? So I think, you know, sometimes the, and the farmer is looking at it, steps back, looks at it from a distance, then comes up and, and prunes it up, up close.
And so I think sometimes you, for me helping, uh, it's helped to have others along in that process to make sure I'm seeing, you know, the tree shape, meaning me, the way I, I really want to, to achieve it and, and talk through that. And a lot of that was with Susan, right? You know, her helping prune me. But some of it's been, you know, my friend group and, and peers that, [00:54:00] that I've invited into that aspect of my life.
[00:54:02] Travis Bader: Uh, aside from the, the work you've done with CIA, you've also, uh, worked in Hollywood and you've helped advise on, uh, on films and shows. What are some of the things that you find Hollywood typically gets wrong about, uh, the agency?
[00:54:19] Doug Patteson: Well, I mean, the first thing that that comes to mind that Hollywood always gets wrong is, uh, the amount of gunplay that takes place in the intelligence world.
Right? Like there's, there is rarely a spy show or spy movie that doesn't involve somebody getting killed every episode. Sure. Right. Um, and, and, and usually by an intelligence officer who's, you know, shooting some, shooting a bad guy or shooting somebody in self-defense or being shot or whatever. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and you know, obviously that just isn't the case, right?
In fact, most intelligence officers who are focused on collection, this is different than officers focused on covert action. And we can talk about [00:55:00] that difference if you want to. Mm-hmm. Um, but most officers are going out to recruit spies and collect intelligence if they, if they were to draw their weapon or use their weapon.
Generally would view that as having been a failure. Sure. Right. Because you, you, something failed in your security process that, you know, required you to use a weapon in some way or form or fashion, uh, and you would likely be pulled outta that country and, you know, shipped off wherever you, you, you, you know, back to headquarters.
Mm-hmm.
And in fact,
most, many, many, uh, case officers will go their whole lives without ever carrying a weapon, their whole careers without carrying a weapon.
Mm-hmm. You know,
it's generally reserved for officers that in, are operating in very high threat environments. I would say the second thing that Hollywood probably gets, um, wrong is the, uh, the level that they portray conspiracy theories.
With rogue elements in the government. Mm. Um, going off and, you know, um, either undermining policy or [00:56:00] implementing policy or overthrowing, um, you know, governments or, you know, manipulating things for personal economic benefit. I, I think they, they obviously, um, it helps them tell the stories they want to tell, but, uh, I think it does make people believe that everybody in the CIA a is a cowboy that's, um, you know, uh, really wants to undermine the American way of life.
[00:56:22] Travis Bader: Hmm. Yeah, that does get portrayed a lot. And you know, I guilty of it. I ask you my conspiracy theories when we're, uh, we're out in the hunt there and I got the real scoop on nine 11, so, uh, I'll just keep that under my hat. Um, so we're good. At least, at least we all know now. Okay. Yes.
[00:56:42] Doug Patteson: I mean, as I've said to you before, one of my favorite comments in response to questions about conspiracy theories is, um, you know, the only way two people can keep a secret is when one of them is dead.
[00:56:52] Travis Bader: That's right.
[00:56:53] Doug Patteson: Right? And, and so at the end of the day, I apply a simple test. To any sort [00:57:00] of conspiracy theory, which is that how likely is it that this could have stayed secret for as many years or as many decades as it's been since the thing supposedly happened.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, I find it really, really incredibly difficult when, when some of the very real conspiracies that folks like, you know, CIA, engaged in, um, efforts to assassinate, you know, um, Castro and Cuba, et cetera.
Sure. That, that many of those were uncovered within five or six years after, you know, those things happened. Uh, and they were sanctioned by, you know, the president and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Overthrows of various governments. Most of those things have become public fairly rapidly after they actually happen.
So, you know, to think of something like, you know, the conspiracy surrounding Kennedy's assassination or whatever, and to be, you know, six decades on from that, you know, timeframe, and think that there's still, you know, uh, some, some serious, you know, conspiracy that was maintained. [00:58:00] You know, I, I just, it, I find it very difficult at the end of the day to believe that that's the thing that really people have been successful at keeping it quiet when so many others failed.
[00:58:13] Travis Bader: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Actually I did a, uh, Kennedy assassination episode. Uh, it never went to air. I had a fellow who'd written books and lectured on the, uh, the Kennedy assassination. And I had another guy because he had this whole theory on the, um, the ballistics and, uh, sure. So I brought in another guy who was a ballast station, and, uh, we sat down to talk about it.
And my, my buddy who's a ballast station was coming in late, and I'm like, Texan, like, you better get in here soon. The guy's already on his third tall boy, and it's like 10 o'clock in the morning right now. And so, uh, it was, it was an interesting, interesting episode, and I might have to, uh, dig it up from the archives one day, but, uh, it's never seen the light of day.
Um, it's, uh, you know,
[00:58:58] Doug Patteson: there are conspiratorial [00:59:00] people, right? Sure. There are meaning there, there were people involved in the government at that point in time who were naturally bent towards engaging in underhanded things, right?
Mm-hmm.
They engaged in conspiratorial actions. They, they definitely believed that they knew better or shouldn't, you know, that Kennedy was bad or that Castro was bad, or, you know, whatever.
Um, but, but, uh. At the, at the end of the day. And then there were people that make mistakes. Sure. Right. That screwed up in the investigation or screwed up in the security.
Yeah.
And people have a strong narrative of self preservation.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so
absolutely people will lie about things that happened or things that didn't happen in order to preserve their own reputation, their, you know, their job, et cetera.
And so, you know, unpicking all of that. I think absolutely feeds conspiracy theories wr large as well. Um, yeah, but it, but, but I really think that if you apply [01:00:00] that test of how easy is it for, you know, the, the government to keep a real secret. Um, you know, for six decades, I, it's, it's really, really challenging on something as big, powerful and involved as something like a Kennedy assassination or a Moon landing or collapse of, of the World Trade Center, um, would be,
[01:00:23] Travis Bader: yeah.
And of course that's what you would say having worked for the agency, but, uh, fair enough.
[01:00:27] Doug Patteson: Exactly.
[01:00:29] Travis Bader: I think we've touched on a, a number of the things that we've got, uh, that I wanted to talk about. We, uh, so you're a part of the Explorers Club, which is, uh, a pretty cool thing. That was, uh. Something we chatted about as well as, what was the other one?
The Defenders Club? Is that what it is? Defender X, defender X, yeah. So
[01:00:46] Doug Patteson: Defender X is, um, is an, is a group of, uh, explorers that take, uh, land Rovers, amphibious land rovers, and, uh, you know, take them out on expeditions around the world. It's [01:01:00] led by two gentlemen, Jeff Wilner, who, uh, lives in tar in Toronto and Steve Brooks, who lives in, in England.
And we have two land rovers that go out on these expeditions that have the ability to transition from on land to, uh, amphibious vehicles with the benefit of pontoons, uh, and a direct drive, uh, attached to the, to the engine. Uh, the most recent expedition that they did was they traveled the length of the Yukon River from, um, all the way down to the ocean.
700 miles. Holy crow. By river on the, in these two land rovers. And, um, we are just gearing up for next year's, uh, expeditions, which will, uh, without giving away where we're going, um, w will take place on the other side of the world from North America. And, um, we'll, we'll leave it at that. But it'll be a, a multi-year series of piece together expeditions, uh, that will, that nobody's ever [01:02:00] done before, uh, including some very long travel over open water.
[01:02:05] Travis Bader: Interesting. And you're gonna be doing that.
[01:02:08] Doug Patteson: Yes. Yeah, I'm, I'm part of the, the team that's, that's doing that. Uh, we'll have a number of folks that kind of go in and out of the expedition over time, you know, because we'll tend to do it in kind of two to four week chunks of, of time. Um, and, you know, as we go and continue to improve on the technologies that we use to, to drive these on amphibious, um, mode, um, will take longer and longer passages, um, that we do, uh, which will be very, you know, interesting.
We've sailed them up the SANE river, we sailed them up the Thames River, um, took them out in the, um, English channel and then, you know, spent 700 miles on, uh, the Yukon River. So it's time now to take them out in places where you can't see the shore,
[01:02:52] Travis Bader: do you? That's crazy.
[01:02:54] Doug Patteson: Do
[01:02:54] Travis Bader: you
[01:02:54] Doug Patteson: film these adventures? We, we do film them.
Um, you know, working to, to put [01:03:00] together a series of, of short kind of documentary style films. Um, there's a pretty active, uh, Instagram account called Defender X that folks can go to and, and check it out. Um, and, you know, it's, it's, it's a throwback to kind of some of the old, uh, explorer mindsets of there is no purpose for this other than to just go do it.
[01:03:22] Travis Bader: Oh, I love it. Right. To,
[01:03:23] Doug Patteson: to do it because it hadn't been done to do it because it's, it's fun and unique and involves some risk, uh, and to do it because it's some levels. It's good to sometimes be able to do nonsense.
[01:03:35] Travis Bader: So do you have to have a defender in order to, to be involved with this, or can you be involved?
In another capacity.
[01:03:44] Doug Patteson: No. Um, many of the team don't have defenders, right? We, we have two defenders for the team, right? But, but many of the other folks that are involved are explorers in their own right. They're engaged in other types of exploration activity, but are not necessarily defender, defender fans.
And, [01:04:00] and the root of the defender component of this was, um, uh, the founder of Defender X, Jeff Welder, having grown up in Africa and spent, you know, his formative years there, you know, driving defenders. And then he's ultimately, uh, uh, in the early two thousands he drove around the world and a defender, um, that, that, um, you know, took him a, a couple years to do, but, but, um, he was successful at doing that.
So it was an outgrowth of that.
[01:04:25] Travis Bader: Well, I'm gonna have to keep an eye on that one and maybe we'll talk off air if there's, uh, any, uh, any spots or volunteers on that crew that you guys are looking for. 'cause that sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.
[01:04:36] Doug Patteson: Oh, it is. Yeah. It's, and it's a great group of people.
[01:04:38] Travis Bader: Yeah.
Yeah. I've got, uh, a couple buddies have defenders, so Nick Nik, and he's past podcast guests and he's in California. One of his defenders was used in an Apple commercial. I think I sent that over to you. Yep. And then Flo, Florian Wagner, he's a photographer for National Geographic and Playboy. And, uh, he's got a, a Gucci, uh, defender that he [01:05:00] has put together.
I'm gonna, uh, uh, chat with them, see what they know about all of this too. And, uh, I think it's, uh, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor, that's for sure.
[01:05:09] Doug Patteson: Yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun. And these are not stock defenders, right? No. Um, but. But it's, it's very cool. They, you know, and, and the, some of the, the rest of the team are really incredible, uh, you know, science minded individuals, you know, and Steve Brooks, uh, from the UK is a tremendous explorer in his own right.
He, he flew a spitfire around the world, um, you know, on his own. He, he has flown a helicopter from the North Pole to the South Pole, uh, including having to ditch it in the, um, uh, in, in, um, uh, what's the name of the, the Strait down there, off the tip of South America.
[01:05:45] Travis Bader: Oh, um, you got me. It's,
[01:05:50] Doug Patteson: it's gonna kill me.
But anyway, he, he ditched it off the coast of a Antarctica and zero degree water temps with zero degree air temps, and floated in a, a lifeboat for 18 hours till he was rescued [01:06:00]
[01:06:00] Travis Bader: man. And
[01:06:00] Doug Patteson: then ultimately went back and redid the trip and, and finished it, uh, in a helicopter. So, you know, some, some, some pretty impressive folks, uh, that have been doing stuff like this for a long time.
Uh, so it's, it's a, it's a good group.
[01:06:14] Travis Bader: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about?
[01:06:18] Doug Patteson: There was probably more on emotional intelligence or leadership. Um, I'm here,
[01:06:23] Travis Bader: I'm happy to,
[01:06:24] Doug Patteson: I, I had this discussion with some of the folks, um, and, uh, you know, the, and the, um, expedition team about, you know, how do you hire people, right.
And how do you Sure. Train them up and, you know, so we talked about the idea of hiring for capacity versus capability.
[01:06:40] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:41] Doug Patteson: Right? 'cause one of the leadership development tools, or one of the leadership development qualities I look for in somebody is I would, I'll take a high capacity individual over a high capability individual.
Mm-hmm. Um.
Every day. A hundred percent. And 'cause I think, I think you can teach the capabilities to where you need them to be, but it's very difficult to grow [01:07:00] somebody's capacity beyond its natural, you know, extent.
Mm-hmm.
And somebody who comes in as a, a lower medium capacity individual, but is high capability and doesn't recognize that
Mm.
Can
oftentimes have a very bad attitude when they run into ceilings on their growth and and development. So we, you know, we look for, I look for high capacity, uh, individuals with the right attitude, right. Self-awareness, uh, and, and 'cause then I can, I can make sure that. They can, as a team member, build the capabilities they need to execute in that team environment.
[01:07:37] Travis Bader: You know, when I was younger, starting in business, I'd hire a person, I'd look at their cv, I had no idea what I was doing, right? I just, I look at their CV and it's 10 pages long and they've got all of these great accolades. I'm like, fantastic. This person's gonna be amazing. We've got everything I need.
And they come on. And they were wwa, right? Right. Maybe not, not doing the, the [01:08:00] greatest. And a mentor at one point said, you know, you're hiring these people on, can you do the skillset that they're doing? Yeah. I can do the skillset that I'm hiring for. Okay. So you could teach a person that skillset, like Yeah, he said, but you can't teach 'em the core values that their mother should have taught them.
[01:08:18] Doug Patteson: Correct.
[01:08:19] Travis Bader: That's a good point. He says, so why don't you hire the people who have the strong core values that align with your own. And if they have the teachable points already, great. And if they don't fair enough, you can teach that to 'em. And I've, I've carried that one forward. It's, um, I don't know if I was in a, in a large growth operation, maybe that wouldn't still apply, but, um, maybe I'd want to have people that have both the, uh, the core values as well as the teachable points.
But I've, it, it changed how I hire and how I operate.
[01:08:52] Doug Patteson: Yeah. And I, I mean, I, I would say I, I would use character in place of core values. I think, you know, largely they're [01:09:00] interchangeable with, but the alignment with yours being the key component.
Mm-hmm.
Right. And so, you know, I, and I think if, if you're, if their character is good and aligned with your character, then their core values are gonna be good and aligned with you as well.
Mm-hmm. Getting at that in an interview process can be challenging sometimes. Um, because. Again, character and or adherence to core values typically only shows when tested.
[01:09:26] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:09:27] Doug Patteson: Right. So, so I asked two primary questions at my interviews, um, to get into that with them.
Okay.
Uh, I, I, I asked people to tell me what's the hardest thing they've ever done.
Okay.
And I explain it could be an academic challenge, a professional challenge, a personal challenge, you know, a athletic whatever. What is the thing that pops into your mind immediately is the most challenging thing that you've ever done? What did it take in you to do it?
Hmm. And then
how do you apply what you learned from doing that today?
Right. And then I just listen to the answer and, [01:10:00] and, you know, kind of poke into that question or their answer and, and see where we go on that. Um, and you know, I, I get answers across the board. Some are very simple answers and some are very robust answers, you know, and you learn a lot about the person in that.
And in fact, you learn that some people have never really had to do anything very hard.
[01:10:17] Travis Bader: Yeah. I think a
[01:10:18] Doug Patteson: lot of people
[01:10:18] Travis Bader: are like that.
[01:10:19] Doug Patteson: And, and so it's, it's very core values can be loosely held when never tested.
[01:10:25] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:10:26] Doug Patteson: So I really wanna understand where they've tested these things. What's, what, what have they done that's truly been hard, that has tested them.
Then the second key question, and my HR people hate this question, but, uh, the question I ask is, tell me about an ethical failure you've had.
[01:10:45] Travis Bader: Hmm.
[01:10:47] Doug Patteson: And walk me through what happened. And more importantly, walk me through what you learned from the process. What kind of responses
[01:10:56] Travis Bader: would you get to something like that?
[01:10:58] Doug Patteson: Well, I've had quite a few people say I've [01:11:00] never had one of those.
[01:11:01] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:11:01] Doug Patteson: Which is patently untrue. Sure. And I, I, I can think of. I'm not even sure Mother Teresa would've answered that question as, I've never had one of those. Sure. In fact, I'm certain she wouldn't.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Um, some, everybody is at least told a lie.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Which you would argue isn't an ethical failure. Right? Sure. Um, but I, I've had answers all the way up to I cheated on my spouse and this is, this is what happened. Now I care way less about what the failure was. Right. And so I have to be really careful as I guide them through this. 'cause I really care about what the learning was that came from that.
Mm-hmm. I care about the weakness that led to it, and then the learning that that came from it. And understanding did it make 'em stronger? Or did it make 'em weaker?
Hmm. Right.
Did that, you know, when you think about a, uh, what we call 'em, Pyrex dishes in the states, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. We got '
[01:11:54] Travis Bader: em. Yeah.
Those heat, heat proof.
[01:11:56] Doug Patteson: Yeah. So the, the, that has been [01:12:00] tested with heat and pressure applied to it.
Mm-hmm.
Right. And if it didn't make it through that process, it busted and got tossed out. Mm-hmm. But now, because it made it through that process, you can put boiling liquids in it and the glass isn't gonna crack.
'cause they've tested to ensure that it withstands that pressure and that heat. So I'm looking for the human equivalence of this. What have they, what's tested them, um, and, you know, what made them stronger or weaker as a result of, of that.
Mm-hmm. Uh,
and then the, the third pro part of the process for me is, um, when I call references, you know, very few people are willing, very few people give a bad reference.
Sure. Right. You, you, you don't tell somebody, call this person because they don't like me. You tell 'em. Mm-hmm. You know, you're expecting to hear only good things. So that's kind of a wasted phone call. Mm. Right. So, so the questions I ask of the reference are, what would, what does this person need to do better?
How does this person handle stress?
[01:12:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:12:56] Doug Patteson: Right? How, how does this person handle communication and [01:13:00] balance? Right? I ask questions that are designed to get at critical feedback, not negative.
Mm-hmm. Right?
But critical feedback so I can better assess again, how they're gonna handle these sorts of things.
You know, when they get in, somebody tells me they're the best spreadsheet builder in the world, you know, that, that doesn't tell me anything. But, but tell me how their spreadsheet helped their team succeed when nobody else understood it. Did they, were they able to teach somebody else how to build the spreadsheet so that they shared that knowledge?
Like, so digging into Sure. These things more than just calling to get a positive feedback, um, reference from, you know, a past employer.
[01:13:40] Travis Bader: And do you find that these, uh, the people you call will tend to, uh, start spilling the goods?
[01:13:45] Doug Patteson: I, I think it, uh, well, US culture's so concerned with being sued. It's so heavily litigious.
Yeah. That
sometimes people will just, they'll literally answer only the question of, oh, I would hire this person again.
[01:13:59] Travis Bader: Right.
[01:13:59] Doug Patteson: [01:14:00] Right. And so I, I don't fault them if they're not willing to, but I do appreciate it when, because at the end of the day, for anybody that's on my team, I actually want the best future for them.
I don't care about the best now.
[01:14:14] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:14:14] Doug Patteson: I want the best future for them. And in order to get to the best future for them, I want to, I have to know who they are. Mm. I have to know they know who they are, and then we can work together to get to that best future.
[01:14:26] Travis Bader: Yeah. And I think that's something that a lot of people who are being employed don't realize that a lot of employers actually want, they want the best future for you.
And that doesn't necessarily mean the best future at my company. It could be just the best future for you. 'cause if you're happy when you're with me and then you're happy when you leave, then I got no headaches and you're gonna refer other people over. And I've, I really, um, I really doubled down on that mentality, wanting the best future for the person and what that.
Also led me do was not just try and get [01:15:00] good at hiring, but also get good at firing. And if the person comes on, because it's like a dating process, you're putting your best foot forward as a company, the individual's putting their best foot forward as an employee. And if they're feeling each other out and seeing like, are we gonna be able to work together?
What's going on? Um, and you can make mistakes and people, you know, there's two things they do. Number one, when I'm done with my interview with somebody, I tell them, I'm not gonna follow up with you. I mean, this is like a dating process. Some people get so lost in the selling process that they just wanna sell, sell, sell and win that little thing.
If after we've laid everything out here, if this is still for you, uh, you follow up with me and then we'll proceed from there. If it's not. Fair enough. Right? And then I'm not wasting my time. And the other thing I've done is get good at firing, which means, um, calling it quick and finding a way to transition a person into something that more suits their [01:16:00] personality type or their skillset.
I might have friends who own businesses and to get you over there, but it, it doesn't mean done. You're gone and we're just cutting all severing, all ties. There's a very human part of that, and I think you've hit it on the head, which is caring about the person and their future in general.
[01:16:17] Doug Patteson: Right? I mean, it's easy to say hire slow, fire fast.
Sure. And there's truth in that. There's validity in that, but that it has to be tempered with the understanding of the humanity component of it, right? Mm-hmm. Collins, um, talks about, uh, having the right people on the bus, like I have the right people on my bus where I'm trying to go
[01:16:38] Travis Bader: and get the wrong people off.
[01:16:40] Doug Patteson: Right. But you do need to get people off the bus if they're the wrong people on the bus. But also you need to make sure that those that are on the bus are in the right seats.
[01:16:48] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. That's what better to best, right?
[01:16:50] Doug Patteson: Yes. Good to best.
[01:16:52] Travis Bader: Good to best. There you go.
[01:16:54] Doug Patteson: And good to best. And so I, you know, the requirement on that I actually think is, is [01:17:00] more burdensome on the employer than it is the employee.
[01:17:03] Travis Bader: Yes.
[01:17:03] Doug Patteson: And it requires active management of your, your talent. Right. And active assessment of them. And we're, and active communication and transparency with them.
Hmm.
Right. Which I think is very hard for a lot of us to do sometimes. 'cause we're caught up in executing on the business.
Mm-hmm. And we
just want people to get it.
Mm-hmm. We just want them to kind of get in and do the job and, and look for their own growth opportunities and, you know, and it people don't work that way. Right. And so your job as a leader in a business. Is really, it's a people problem set. Mm-hmm. And so that's, that's actually one of the things I think I took most from the agency was, was how to deal with people problem sets.
Interesting. Right. How to
understand motivations, understand problems, and to communicate with them and to work towards, you know, uh, that communication leading towards solutions. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you gotta make these assessments and communicate with the employees. Are they in the right seat on the bus or do they need to be on a different bus?[01:18:00]
Mm-hmm. Right.
And that's not to say there's fault in that. Right. It's, it's just this bus is going this way, the bus you need to be on is going that way. Right. Right. And, and the, and the difference may be a character issue or a core value alignment issue. Mm-hmm. It may be a skillset issue, it may be a capacity issue.
Mm-hmm. And
just because you've been on the bus for the first half of the journey. And needed to be on the bus for the half first half of the journey. Doesn't mean that seed is yours for the rest of the journey.
[01:18:30] Travis Bader: I a hundred percent agree
[01:18:31] Doug Patteson: because your needs change, the business' needs change, your growth cap capability and capacity changes, et cetera.
[01:18:39] Travis Bader: You know, I, I look at, if we're to use that dating analogy, I, I find that employee employer relationships are often quite like that. Uh, sometimes. When it comes time for a relationship to end, either party has to make an enemy out of each other in order to make that next step to move forward. [01:19:00] When, I mean a couple people dating each other, they don't necessarily have to be bad people.
They're just not incomp, they're just incompatible in that current role. And the same with employee employer. I don't hate people who work for me who aren't doing a good job, and I, I, I truly do want the best for them. I just don't want 'em on my bus. And, and it just being able to separate that emotion part and be able to make the decisions based on, uh, uh, a pragmatic set as opposed to the, the emotional, okay, well, if I'm gonna leave, it's gotta be because I'm perfect and they're terrible, and how do we, how do we do that?
And I think, uh, I, I try to anyways articulate that to anybody working with me at the early stages. And it seems to work all of a sudden. I've got the right people on the bus and they're staying on the bus. Right. And, and I don't know how much I really changed other than just that open communication with people about how I operate.
[01:19:57] Doug Patteson: Yeah. Good communication of [01:20:00] expectations, measurements along the way, and communication about how you're doing towards those measurements Right. Is really, really key.
Mm.
Whether good or bad, like the same level of communication with people that are failing is as important as with people who are, are succeeding.
[01:20:14] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:14] Doug Patteson: And, you know, I, if a, if an employee is surprised that they're being let go, that they're being moved off the bus, that's really a failure of the leader. Yeah. More than it's a failure of the employee.
Yeah.
And so I, I look at that and go, no, nobody should be surprised at that. Both parties should sit there and go, yeah, we both recognize this is not working.
Mm-hmm. And
you know. We, we might disagree on some of the whys, but we come to agreement largely on it's not working and probably not fixable.
Mm-hmm. Right.
And therefore it makes more sense to part than it does.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there's a great book called Necessary Endings, um, which is helpful to folks that are trying to figure out how to, how to do this.
Okay. Uh, and work through [01:21:00] this, this process because those endings are necessary. But, you know, in, in those moments, I'm looking for some of the same things I'm looking for, you know, if, if I'm assessing an employee and whether to put 'em on a, a pip, a performance improvement, improvement plan, you know, I'm, I'm looking at do they have ownership of where they are?
Do they agree with where we're trying to go? Mm. And do we agree on that they have the capability to get there, because if those things aren't true, then we're wasting time with the pip.
[01:21:30] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.
[01:21:31] Doug Patteson: You're giving them false hope.
[01:21:33] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. If,
[01:21:34] Doug Patteson: if you can't reach agreement on those things
[01:21:36] Travis Bader: mm-hmm. Yeah, that's smart.
And a lot of people just have a difficult time with that social interaction of making that pragmatic call.
[01:21:46] Doug Patteson: It's very hard to do. Well, it, it's, it's hard. It's hard in us to do it well. Right? Hmm. We, we want to live in the world of things are good. It's, it is hard to, to live in the world of, you need to be better.
[01:21:59] Travis Bader: [01:22:00] Mm-hmm. I like it. Is there anything else that we should be chatting about? I'm not sure. Okay. Well, we covered a lot. Yeah, we sure did. Uh, I think I got a lot of the points that I was looking for. Um, yeah, you've got a, uh, you've got a hell of a background and, uh, you're definitely, uh, you got some cool adventures coming down the pipe, which I'm really excited to be following.
Uh, if people wanna follow you on social media, they can find you. That's, uh, I'm gonna put links in the bio. Um, uh, any, any other links I should be sharing with them.
[01:22:34] Doug Patteson: No, I think that, you know, the, the Instagram and, and uh, Twitter links are, are good to throw in there. You know, if folks have questions about emotional intelligence or they have questions about the agency or, you know, they have other questions, uh, about that, um, you know, I'm obviously happy to, to answer them.
Um, you know, they want to, you know, spend some time going to read this stuff at Field Ethos, I'd, I'd love to have folks read more of that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, it's, I've [01:23:00] loved writing for them because it gives me a chance to dig into, into, um, well, most, most of those stories are about failure, right? Mm-hmm.
Or a notice about hard things in life.
Mm-hmm. Um,
and so my, my hope is that in, in some of those lessons, people will learn a little bit, they'll laugh a little bit and maybe get more comfortable at self-reflection themselves. Uh, and look for opportunities to learn because, you know, there's plenty of hunting and fishing magazines that, that show the hero shots.
Sure. And, you know, the, the, you know, big six by six bull on the ground, um, that don't ever talk about, you know, um, that, well, for example, our, our hunt, we had three guys that hunted hard for a week.
Mm-hmm.
And we, and we came home empty handed. Um, but we didn't come home with empty hearts.
[01:23:49] Travis Bader: No.
[01:23:50] Doug Patteson: Right. Oh. Had a hell of a
[01:23:51] Travis Bader: great time.
[01:23:52] Doug Patteson: And we learned a lot. We built new relationships. We, we, uh, got to experience beautiful country. And, you know, those [01:24:00] stories don't necessarily get written a lot.
Mm-hmm. But they're
actually the heart of what it is we're trying to do when we're out there.
Mm-hmm. It
really is, is rarely about that six by six that's on the wall.
[01:24:12] Travis Bader: Uh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. It's, uh, ing on the cake when you, uh, when you get the animal. But it's the, uh, it's the journey of going there. It's the people you spend the time with. It's the difficult moments that are inevitably gonna come that, uh, right, that you look back on and that's what they call what type two Fun.
It's right type one. It's like a rollercoaster, a lot of fun, but you don't look back and remember it. Type two, it's like you're slogging with the elk on your back for days on end, but uh, it's roaring and it's cold, but you look back and it's a great time. And then a buddy of mine who says, oh, what about type three fun?
I'm like, I've never heard of type three fun. He says, yeah, that's when it really sucks when you're doing it and then you look back and it still sucks. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I've had those two. We, we've all had those as well. Yep. I love it. [01:25:00] Okay. Well Doug, thank you very much for being on the Silver Core podcast.
I really enjoy this time and I know, uh, I know we're gonna have to do this again 'cause there's, uh, there's other tens. I'd love my A DHD brain to go down and, uh, explore with you.
[01:25:14] Doug Patteson: Thank you, brother. It was a lot of fun to do it with you and, and as always, appreciate what you're doing.