The Ten Thousand Things

Thinking back on favourite films, it becomes clear what they say about us. Cinema, the Psyche, unveiling Inner Heroes

It's always therapy and psychoanalysis around here, movies are the vehicle. Favourite films reflect deep psychological themes and evolving personal identities. What we once found aspirational in a character, we might later rethink, or realise it was not the healthiest hero to have. Others may have been right for the time.

So we mainly talk about movies our younger selves were drawn to, Pulp Fiction, Terminator 2, The Matrix, Le Samurai, The Thin Red Line, Beaches, When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, Funny Girl, 'Now, Voyager', All About Eve, and Stella Dallas.

It's the usual mix of personal stories, and psychological insights, plus film analysis and some half-remembered film theory, looking at identification with film characters, self-perception, the making and collapsing of reality, and the separate self. We also touch on the gender dynamics in film identification, the concept of sacrificial love, and the role of cinema in shaping or reflecting social norms and personal dreams. It all brings us eventually to the universal quest for connection and meaning.

We delve into how these preferences illuminate our aspirations, fears, and personal development.

Image: still from Cinema Paradiso (1988) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095765/?quot

(00:00) - TTTT Film
(01:23) - Deep Dive into Favorite Films and Personal Identification
(03:28) - Self-image and cinema
(07:33) - The Psychological Impact of Film and the Matrix Deep Dive
(10:36) - Meditation, Reality, and Joe''s dis-Engagement with Cinema
(14:41) - Heroism, Mortality, and the Essence of Cinema
(21:02) - Heroism in Real Life vs. Cinema
(22:59) - Reflecting on how Mortality impacts Film Appreciation
(26:01) - Character Archetypes in Cinema
(26:30) - The Impact of Nature and Civilization in Film
(28:57) - The Power of Old Movies: Nostalgia and Reflection
(30:20) - The Power of Melodrama: Reflecting on Personal Sacrifices
(44:03) - Romantic Comedies and Their Influence on Personal Identity
(51:06) - The Secret Hopes and Dreams in Cinema
(52:55) - Concluding Thoughts on Cinema's Psychological Impact

00:00 Welcome: A Thought Experiment on Favorite Films
01:10 Personal Film Favorites and Identity
01:10 Deep Dive into Favorite Films and Personal Identification
03:15 Self-image and cinema
07:19 Psychological Impact of Cinema
07:19 The Psychological Impact of Film and the Matrix Deep Dive
10:22 Meditation, Reality, and Joe''s dis-Engagement with Cinema
14:27 Heroism, Mortality, and the Essence of Cinema
20:48 Heroism in Real Life vs. Cinema
22:45 Reflecting on how Mortality impacts Film Appreciation
25:48 Character Archetypes in Cinema
26:16 Nature vs. Civilization: A Personal Journey
26:16 The Impact of Nature and Civilization in Film
28:43 The Power of Old Movies: Nostalgia and Reflection
30:06 The Power of Melodrama: Reflecting on Personal Sacrifices
43:49 Romantic Comedies and Self-Discovery
43:49 Romantic Comedies and Their Influence on Personal Identity
50:52 The Secret Hopes and Dreams in Cinema
52:41 Concluding Thoughts on Cinema's Psychological Impact

Creators & Guests

Host

Ali Catramados

Diagnosed crazy cat lady/part time podcaster

Host

Joe Loh

Film crew guy and mental health care worker with aspirations of being a small town intellectual one day.

Host

Sam Ellis

Teacher/father/leftist loonie/raised hare Krishna and have never quite renounced it - "I just have one more thing to say, then I’ll let you speak"

What is The Ten Thousand Things?

Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.

Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)

Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados

Joe: today on the show, a
bit of a thought experiment.

I think of your favorite film.

And you will find according
to Alexandra, Catramados.

That you identify.

With the main character.

Um, so you can

Ali: usually ask the
question without that.

Joe: you just say, think
of your favorite films.

And then pause.

So you're not rocking

Ali: that decision informed.

Oh, I fucked it.

Yeah.

You're making that like, oh, what's
my, like, what's my favorite movie.

And then going back and
realizing, oh, that's why.

Relate to those.

Characters.

Yeah.

Sam: In hindsight it's clearer.

Ali: Yes.

Yeah, but you're not.

Your decision is not clouded by it all.

Like I want to pick a cool movie
because I want to be perceived as cool.

You're picking a movie just
based on honest answers.

Honest answers that you love,

Sam: which VHS did you wear out?

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: Mm.

Yeah.

And you know, what did you take off TV?

Not once, but twice.

And then

Ali: given that over and over again, we've

Joe: out again.

And then given that this is
a deeply intellectual show.

Some deep psychological
truths will be revealed.

Correct.

When we now discuss
what our favorite films.

That's right, right.

Is that the concept for this episode?

Yes.

Ali: When I, I thought about it and I
started rattling off my favorite movies,

I, it sent me into a downward spiral.

Well, you had some.

The themes.

It was consistent, obvious.

Joe: Right.

If I had to think of my favorite
film, I'd probably say pulp fiction,

which is an ensemble cast that
doesn't have a main character.

Sam: Oh, there's plenty to relay.

There's plenty to plenty of people.

Straight away.

I guess, you

Joe: know, Ali's theories
in the toilet, but.

To play the game.

Uh, no one made me think.

Maybe think of.

Three things.

Do you want me to, I was going
to slowly eat them out over

the episode, but I'll tell ya.

So Edward Furlong, Terminator two.

Here we go.

Not that I identified with him cause
he has so much more of a bad-ass.

To be him probably.

Yeah.

Sam: He was cool.

Joe: Yeah.

I mean, he's the one who actually said
hasta LA Vista, baby, To, to a girl

and he's like 13 and he got money.

Out of an ATM.

Easier.

The baby.

Yeah.

Like he was the coolest teenager.

So cleared ever so cool.

So with hair and his
eyes and all that shit.

So definitely.

Terminated twos.

Very close to my favorite film ever.

Yes.

And I guess Edward fell along
about the same age as me at

that time, but much cooler.

Yeah.

The other one was when I
served, saw the matrix.

Yup.

Uh, and I was on acid.

Yeah.

The first time in the cinema.

That would have been a.

Hell.

Yeah.

And obviously Neo.

Yeah, and I think.

Sam: Oh, Morpheus.

I like, I kind of want it to be more,

Joe: Neo's kind of stayed with me as.

The chosen one.

You know, the one that's going
to say through the matrix.

Well, We've had the Keanu
sons' yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like.

See.

What really what's really going
on and then save the world.

That's

Ali: the saving the world.

It seems to be the theme like your, the.

You're the one, then it's going to save
the world with your enormous capabilities.

That's right.

And it's

Joe: caused me a lot of grief as an
adult to approach the world like.

Ditch that, and then the other one
that, that came to me was less samurai.

French film.

Oh yeah.

And it's like a Hitman.

Yeah.

Costello, his name

Sam: is, um, late nineties.

Joe: Oh, the

Sam: sixties.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think I watched
it in the late nineties.

Joe: Yeah, the samurai and
he's really cool and detached

and where's the cool hat.

And no one really knows what's going
on with him and he's not trying to

solve the problems of the world.

Ali: They're all very cool character.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Something just.

Being your friend and knowing that
that's something you actually value.

Joe: Cool.

And Kate very

Sam: keen and capable.

Yeah.

Joe: I would say coolness
is very close to my

Sam: highest value.

And I think cinema and
coolness are inextricable.

Like,

Joe: yeah, they've always.

The attachment that I.

I haven't achieved, you know, John
Connor saving the world status.

I haven't achieved.

Neo seeing through the
matrix, being the one status.

And I'm way too emotional
and open to be super cool.

Like a Hitman with a hat.

But the detachment.

Of the Hitman is the closest
I've come to in real life.

Is that I can be quite
detached from my own life.

And not in a healthy way.

No, but.

You know, it's funny doing this podcast.

I think something my therapist
said to me a couple of days is.

Yeah, it seems like you're
okay being heard, but you

really don't want to be seen.

Oh, like strongly perceived.

Um, so this guy, Jeff Costello is walking
around in this film and he, you see him

as the coolest looking guy ever, but he's
also able to fade into the background.

Yeah.

Sam: What about you, Sam?

Oh, no.

That's really interesting.

I'm going to psychoanalyze the, just
for a moment longer before I throw

in anything but that, so the first
movie you liked when you were 12.

You know, Eddie and it, you know, you
and Eddie, both sort of similar age.

And then Neo when you're like 18, 19.

Joe: Yeah.

Sam: Right.

And then this other guy, what age?

Joe: Uh, Jessica Stella or whatever,
mid twenties, but that's the one

I've gone back to the interesting.

I don't go back anymore and watch
Terminator two or the matrix.

No, but I'll go back and watch
lists MRI and be like, wow,

this is a fucking cool film.

And I've got, you know, other samurai.

Poster up on my wall and.

Sam: I think I can almost picture it.

Yeah.

So I think all of that makes a lot of
sense and you can see the evolving needs.

You know, John is.

Young.

And cool.

And that's the aspirational
part he's capable.

That's also aspirational and he's, but
here's where the relate here's where the.

You would have related to him because.

Because there's problems with these
parents, he's there and he's in

foster care and he's vulnerable.

He's very vulnerable, even
though he is very capable.

He's also very vulnerable.

He's in a very dangerous situation.

So maybe there's a bit to
relate to as well as aspire to.

You know, cause there are some
people who say the matrix is.

Yeah, well, some people take
it quite literally and have

gone down the simulation.

With it.

Yeah.

And

Ali: then like, yeah.

Obsession with reality.

Yes.

And where you sort of drifted, I suppose,
where your mind has gone during the post.

Yeah.

Alternate sort of.

Psychosis is.

Joe: Psychosis is a lot more like

Sam: the Truman show.

Yeah.

Uh, which was a movie that
came out around the same time.

Had the same impact.

Joe: The one that's that's.

Probably my favorite
film in terms of film.

I want to watch tonight with
some mates is the big Lebowski.

Sure.

Yes.

And Jeff Lebowski is actually
the character I'm by far

the most like, of course of.

Eddie film character, probably you are

Sam: a lot like the dude.

Joe: I only went back to
smoking weed, I'd pretty much.

I mean,

Sam: I like bowling, whereas
I'm more, whereas I'm more like

Donnie or Walter, I'm afraid.

Yeah.

Joe: No, not really.

You're not hapless, like, like Dani.

Uh, no, no, I'm probably.

Continue with your cycle analysis.

It's really taken me
back to film theory, 2002

Sam: man with the, well, I could
never understand the obsession in

film theory because I did a bit of
it in English and cultural studies.

And I couldn't understand why they
kept banging on about psychoanalysis.

And then all these years later,
I'm like, oh no, I get it now.

so of all the, so the,
basically the theory.

There's an important little
piece of academic theory.

Always get it out the way real quick
that all art should be psychoanalyzed.

Right.

But.

That there's something
about film that is the most.

Rich symbolically and it's
got, it's got the most.

Kind of projection and fantasy and, It's
richly, richly psychoanalytical in a

way that novels, which were seen as the
pinnacle of psychoanalytic technology at

one time, you know, the novel, cause it.

You know, first person consciousness
and really just exploring.

It was the state of the art of
exploring consciousness at one time.

Right.

Then cinema comes along and
it's like, oh no, no, no.

You're going to see, you're going to see.

The foyer, the voice.

So there's so much going on.

It's not just the Voya aspect,
although that's incredibly important.

It's.

The also the simultaneous, the
placing the projecting of the self

into which is separate to the voice.

That's.

And as you're

Joe: watching.

Your self.

Disappears.

Yes.

And you merge with the screen
ideally, and you forget that

you're surrounded by people.

Like all of that.

So that's, I mean, I bang on about
the self being an illusion, but

the best way to probably experience
that in the world still is to.

Being grossed in a film.

Sam: Yes.

One of the great attractions
of truly excellent cinema and I

include like an action movie in
this or the most subtly bittersweet.

drama.

They can both achieve the same
thing of Co creating complete

identification with what's happening
and the people and you are.

Uh, raised.

Uh, effectively.

That's right.

Yeah.

And you experienced that
one sense of oneness.

Yeah, with all other humans,
which is a very cool thing for.

The only thing that's

Joe: not cool about that it's like
is that you have to come back.

Oh, it's brutal.

You know, That also, I haven't
been able to enter that state.

No movies.

These aren't doing it for you before.

COVID.

I haven't dropped away.

The self hasn't dropped away.

It drops away in meditation, but it
doesn't drop away in a cinema anymore.

When's the last one that, oh, man.

Ah, maybe nomad land actually.

In the cinema, highly praised.

Sam: Yeah.

Anyway, back to the.

The psychoanalysis of you.

So we had to get the academic footnote out

Joe: the way.

uh, bear in mind that obviously
listeners to this have never met me.

And I have no idea who I am.

So you're going to speak
very clear with any.

Biographical details.

Okay.

It's not like we just make this
show and then just our friends.

Listen.

Sam: Yeah.

That's right.

Well, just to be clear right
now, Joe is wearing a Ray ban

wayfarers and a matching tracksuits.

So it's already pretty cinematic.

And he's holding, he's
holding a microphone.

I mean, You can see how tightly.

His life has been bonded.

Boundary with film.

And now w why don't you
discovered spirituality though?

See, this is where I
was getting back to Neo.

There's the literalist
rating of the matrix, right?

The simulation bros,
because they usually are.

and then you've got the
kind of political reading.

I think the, probably the most
interesting area to get into with.

Sort of the, the readings of
the matrix, the ones that I

sort of got to at the end of it.

The psychoanalytic one.

And the psychosis hallucination
and so on mental health.

Type.

It's an exploration of consciousness.

And also of, uh, you know, that
phenomenology and meditation

and all that kind of stuff.

And that seeing through.

We're seeing three reality or seeing
reality in a different way and like, okay,

we're not living in a simulation, but
we're experiencing it as a simulation.

And then, you know, meditation is.

You know, as Joe can attest, he's
gone further with it than me.

That you've penetrated the.

The Curt, like the veil you've
gotten you've you've drawn the veil.

Aside.

On more than one.

Through

Joe: is a term commonly used
in the meditations that I do.

Seeing through, which is that's what the
whole gut, the whole name of the game in

the matrix is to see through the matrix.

Yeah.

Right.

And.

I would say that in my actual life,
that's how I see the separate self.

As this, this persistent illusion,
a projection, a projection.

Just keeps re reappearing and
reappearing and reappearing, but

it's, it's, it's actually not real.

So I need to try and see through it,
but it's methodical process to try to

see through it again and again, and
eventually from what I'm told you.

You know, you do see through it.

And also the Buddhist.

If you want to talk about the matrix.

I heard someone who's studied.

Embolism say.

that once you understand impermanence Hmm.

And permanent is so thorough going.

It's so it's a total.

Theory, even in permanence.

This isn't real.

Yes.

Even in this there's so
little permanence that yeah.

Even in permanent doesn't capture it.

Yeah.

You can go really far with it.

That's and that's the concrete,
that's two and a half thousand

years to put us thought.

Talking about impermanence
and you know, so that's not

saying we live in a simulation.

But it's saying that what we
take to be fixed real solid.

It's just not that.

Sam: Yeah, that's right.

And I think cinema is
actually really good.

At both creating these surface
realities and dispelling them and

penetrating them at the same time.

Joe: Phenomenological experience
at Northlands in 1999.

Yeah.

On my own on half a tab of acid.

Watching the fucking matrix.

Hard hitting.

Without even knowing
much about it and that.

But hell by the time I got out of there.

Yeah.

I felt like that seems

Sam: point break.

Joe: Yeah.

Maybe it's coming back
to me now that feeling.

Being a savior or whatever.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, like, so as much as I said,
your theory was in the toilet, Allie,

and we'll have to get onto you too guys.

Sam: Endorsing it.

Yeah.

Joe: Well, it's deeply rich.

It's.

Psychologically, very rich.

Actually, if I think back to how I
felt walking out of the matrix and

how I've approached my life and, and
the problem I have with the news is

that I can't read the news without
imagining myself in some heroic role.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's coming between two warring sides.

The illusion

Sam: of the separate self right there.

Yeah.

Joe: Right.

So I can't really engage with the news.

Why?

Because of my grandiosity.

Because I don't take myself to be.

A citizen of Australia
living in Melbourne.

I take myself to be someone who
just might be about to get a phone

call from the white house, you know?

Oh, well, How do we got to sort this out?

Well, actually, Thinking about this a lot.

That's right.

And about the middle east is so yeah.

I'm glad you guys

Sam: called.

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

that's another illusion that
I'm working on, man, but this

is an illusion that cinema

Sam: implants.

In all of us.

The hero.

Yeah.

The

Joe: hero's journey.

I know it's it worked
until it did it, you know?

Yes.

So now I just need to abandon that.

Bogging the software.

Kind of thing.

You know,

Sam: uh, so.

What did you ever get into realist cinema?

Like, uh, you know, social
realists, that kind of stuff?

Or were you more about the.

Fantastic.

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

I love all that shit.

Yeah.

I've been, I loved all that shit.

I've lost my relationship with
cinema in the last five years.

Completely like com.

It feels

Sam: like it's a done deal for now.

Joe: Not.

Yeah.

I might come back, man.

Why come back, you.

You know, 20 years, but I, whatever,
I'm just letting it go for now.

Sam: That's the, and that's
the Buddhist way, like, yeah,

don't be clinging just, yeah.

Yeah, it ain't, it ain't.

Joe: If I get, I mean, I don't have enough
time to, to do the meditation practices.

I've got them backing up.

Um, on my app that I want to
sit and spend hours actually

going through these practices.

Talk about the real stuff.

Yeah, I know.

I don't let myself get distracted
by my phone or whatever, but.

Yeah, kind of the real cinema.

Kind of sobbing.

I'm not saying I'm
spiritually enlightened.

Or even.

I can't even prove a spiritual
experience, but something happened where.

Meditation started to be this.

It's not a form of entertainment, but.

Became incredibly nourishing.

Yes.

But cinema, I became I'd watch it and
think I couldn't suspend disbelief.

This.

Sam: actor I've been struggling
with this for a long time.

Joe: Came into reality.

Too much.

Yeah.

Like somehow, like, I meditated
my way into a reality where

I can't just pretend anymore.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, why is this so violent?

I can't watch a fictional violence.

I don't lie.

Obviously.

Uh, terminated to the
whole world gets blown up.

Yeah.

Fiction.

It's a series of grizzly
torture and murder and yeah.

When I was a teenager, I loved.

Very nihilistic.

Sam: Very nihilistic text.

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So I've just.

I may be getting older and
more sentimental or whatever.

I just don't want to watch.

I do

Sam: not want to either.

Joe: Whereas in the twenties, it was a.

Sam: It was fun.

Joe: It was cool.

It was coolest fucking thing.

Did you see

Sam: the way they blew that
guy's head off or the best?

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like.

I think it was Terentino's
he said like, ladder.

The language of violence is the
language of American cinema.

He's not wrong.

That's what we

Sam: do.

Yeah.

Jen, Janet Jackson can have a
titty out on the Superbowl halftime

show and it brings the world.

Well to an end.

Yeah, but like, yeah, let's just like
in, at Tara that same Tarantino film,

you know, where they accidentally
shoot Marvin in the backseat.

That actually really did.

Shock me made me feel awful, but for days.

Oh, I just thought it was cool.

It was fuck, but yeah, that's right.

So then none of that's a big deal.

Joe: think it's a lack of
mortality at 80 cents of mortality.

When you're 21.

part fiction came out.

Yeah, but like you can see
someone's head, we blow it off.

Oh, that's funny.

But now like, fuck it.

I'm going to die too.

And that.

Ali: Too real.

But also like

Joe: respectful

Sam: life.

Yeah.

Ali: Potentially the timeline of when you
started to switch off from these things.

And like you said, during the pandemic,
that was actually a very real threat to

Sam: cinema.

Ali: Well, yeah, but also to our existing.

And mortality.

So perhaps it's yeah.

The things you've now chosen to engage
with and not engage with has also

shifted because your perception of yeah.

Mortality's changed.

Joe: Yeah.

I think that's right.

I think there was, there was a moment
when there was a wave of COVID hitting

Melbourne and, uh, The bodies were
stacking up in Italy, as you said, and.

Sure.

I read something about, I dunno, it
was like a healthy guy in his thirties,

in Melbourne getting COVID and dying.

Yeah.

And, uh,

in my, uh, 40 group chat.

It was like, for some reason
that turned into like a COVID

panic fucking group chat.

And I was like, yeah, I can imagine.

Say something about that.

And he quoted, I think it
was Albert Chino from heat.

Right back.

He's like

Sam: you can die walking
a little, little doggy.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Joe: Y fuck.

I'm in my forties that I'd
never really thought about how I

Sam: could just die.

You can die on the Eastern freeway
on your way to the Westfield.

Joe: That's it.

And I was like, dude, so I've got,
you know, between now when I die, I've

got a fuck ton of work to do around.

It's 10 sensing and
experiencing mine mortality.

Ironically Jeff Costello from,
uh, Le samurai at the end,

he commits suicide by cop.

Sam: Well, I was going to say, cause
he's a death dealer, this character.

And he walks

Joe: into his own death.

And it just lets it happen.

And it's mysterious to this day.

You know why he does that in that film?

You know?

Sam: Well, I think one can speculate.

I think it's got to do
with an acknowledgement.

That his life is.

Joe: It hadn't seen the film.

Sam: No, I think I did see
it in the late nineties.

I think.

Joe: can say I've had a
theory on literally anything.

No,

Sam: no.

I think I saw this film because it was.

Thinking of a Hitman maybe.

Professional professional.

Sorry, John.

Joe: Yes.

Now the French film about a Hitman.

Yes.

Sam: Yes.

And.

Joe: Good film too.

And her

Sam: whole family has been killed
and she says, yeah, So John Reno is.

She's 12 or whatever.

Is it always like this,
or just when you're a kid.

And for the first time in the
film, he doesn't know what to

do and he's just standing there.

And then he says,

No, always like this in

Joe: the

Sam: professional.

Yeah.

And then they go on to have
an inappropriate relationship.

Yeah, but so warning, if you
watch that, so just watch out

for that, but there are some.

There were some, I didn't actually
pick up on that whole side of the

film to me, it was about this guy
who's capable of killing people.

And now has two.

Deal with the fact that he
there's this human, that really

is a witness to something and
should just be gotten rid of.

But yeah, he can't do that.

So, you know, it's the beginning of
his hero's journey of, embracing life

and, What is it like to be a Hitman?

Like that's not really the question.

The question that's asking is.

What does life mean?

to anyone, but if you were capable of
killing somebody and if that's how you.

Made your own living.

What does that mean?

so it's, you know, it is about
a Hitman, but it's, it's,

it's kind of about this idea.

Idea of like What problems are ever solved
by going around whacking people and at

the real problems of life consist in.

Life itself rather than ending like.

That life presents problems.

And that.

Have you finished your
analysis of many of the matrix.

Yeah, pretty much.

Well, did I think you did ha I think he
did have you your Neo moment in the end.

Yeah, and, and that you can bring
a message back for the world.

Joe: The only time I've done
anything heroic that I can think of.

Is where my eldest daughter
got out of the shower.

There was no bathmat.

Yeah.

Flipped over.

She smashed her head.

Yeah.

An hour later, she was
not making any sense.

Delirious.

Rushed her to the hospital.

And the doctors were talking about
possible bleeding on the brain.

They didn't know what was going on.

She didn't know who I was.

And my heroic act was
to sit there with her.

Be calm.

And wait for something to happen.

Over submerged threw up all over me.

And then she snapped out and
said, oh dad, where am I?

Yeah.

That's the closest I've ever come to
be a hero was rushing my daughter to

the hospital and keeping it together.

Well, when the doctors were not really
keeping together, they didn't really

know what was going on with her.

Oh, that's terrifying.

That's real, absolutely
terrifying, but real heroism.

Yeah.

And afterwards the nurses
said why he did a great job.

He stayed really calm.

Yeah.

And for someone who was told at
19, then I'm a bit defective.

I've got a mental illness
to do something very adult.

Vaguely heroic.

and then, you know, there was protests
and there was propaganda films and

it was all this shit, but actual.

Heroism just getting my.

Daughter to the hospital on time.

Yeah, big time.

So that's, it's actually.

Yeah, no, one's going to come
and ask me to save the world.

No, that detachment

Sam: that you, that detachment you
sometimes are good at, well, it can be

handy in those circumstances, right?

And, and, and also.

Can I say that.

So many parents in that situation, make
it about them without realizing it.

And so well done.

Like the nurses,

Joe: man, nothing like a pat
on the back from a fucking.

They see it all and

Ali: everything.

Sam: And they say a lot of parents who.

They have to help as much as yeah.

They basically said that.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Anyway, what's your favorite film, Sam?

Sam: So the thin red line.

Joe: Oh, one of my favorites.

Sam: Yeah, And obviously Jim Caviezel is a
bit of a nutcase these days, but, I think

he turned in a really good performance
and shout out to my mate, Eric, who

is one of the extras in that film.

He.

P a P is in several scenes
is just one of many.

Soldiers moving.

And, you know, a good, a good
effort from Terrence Malick.

Who's done a few good ones over the years
worth checking out his catalog, because

he deals a lot of things, you and I do.

We all DKI, you know, the consciousness
and, you know, the experience.

Of, uh, reality and all the human beings.

And what's it all about?

But I think.

I think I kind of admired.

Wit.

Because He was sort of a little
bit detached and a little bit.

Innocent and sort a
little bit gormless and.

you know, it was very much just
thrown into this situation and.

I really liked Sean Penn's character
of, you know, who was trying to

like ground him in reality, you
know, like there's just this

rock, Like It's like, oh no, man.

I just want to like jump off the ship
and swim to the islands and just.

You know, just eat a banana and just
like, watch the locals, just hang out.

What's this war at the heart of nature.

That's right.

Why does it vibe with itself?

Joe: Yes, fuck.

That's a good, I could almost
be my favorite film of all time.

Sam: And of course, you know, So you,

Joe: you relate to someone is off.

Heading the clouds.

Oh,

Sam: very much.

Joe: They're looking at the biggest
possible picture, even though

they're faced with their own.

Totally.

Sam: Yeah.

And Vera.

And very much like.

Zoom out.

Joe: Yeah.

It was annoying degree where you lose.

No resolution.

And it's like, oh,

Sam: Zoom in man.

It's absolutely true.

And I think come to think of it.

I guess I'm about when I first saw
that film, I would have been about the

age of the character and Ali's theory.

Yeah.

And 18, 19 20 thereabouts, because
there were just, I mean, In the Pacific,

because there were just these kids.

Um, getting off boats and getting
blown to pieces in seconds or

drowning with a full backpack of gear.

And.

And just many of them.

Affectively conscripts and just complete
innocence, knew nothing about the world.

Next thing they know they're in the
middle of fucking epic war in the Pacific.

Like it's crazy to think about.

And what would I be
like in that situation?

Absolutely.

Just like that.

Trying to get away from the
present reality by going to the.

The absolute and the, the big
picture and the cosmic and.

Cause, cause he's not.

Like he did.

The character is a degree, has a degree
of spiritual enlightenment, which I think

I admired, but really he's trying to
deal with mortality like everybody else.

And Sean, Penn's trying to deal with
it by being super realistic and.

Which Jim Caviezel, his character
is trying to deal with it by.

by meditating on, you know,
what's it really all about?

And I'm trying to see
the beauty in things.

But then it's interesting at the end of
the film without spoiling anything that

he, uh, Has to take action and to save his
own life and does so basically, and he's

capable of rising to the, to the occasion.

but he doesn't take any
pleasure in killing anybody.

And there are characters
in the film that do.

And.

It's sort of like a series of
vignettes of, you know, the M

the ambitious officer who hasn't.

Gotten far enough in his career and.

The officer who doesn't want to
risk the lives of any of his men.

And.

all the way down to this private
who just sort of doesn't.

Yeah, it's not really
engaging with reality.

And so, yeah, so I think
there was something in that.

Would the film have the
same impact on me now?

Prob.

Maybe not.

Joe: So when I think of the film, I think
of long grass is blowing into weighing

Sam: in the breeze.

Nice little shots.

Joe: Relate.

A deep, psychological level
to a connection with nature.

Did you grow up in somewhat in nature or.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Lots of Bush walks.

Sam: Yeah.

And, and I think I very much.

Was a romantic and you know, the,
as in Capitola, And, you know,

words worth and landscapes and.

I think I was totally all in on the
simplistic binary of nature civilization.

the untouched and the spoil and so on.

Now I don't look at the
world that way at all.

I see.

The

Joe: fucking myth.

It is nice.

Yes.

Sam: Yeah.

It's fucking nature.

Well, yes, I think we could
do with less concrete.

Uh, but it's not.

Sorry, that's a sidetrack.

Uh, grass is as important,
you know, people.

Joe: realized that I was like, this
is a con, this is actually why I.

I see it's part of nature and

Sam: there's no such thing
as untouched wilderness.

There's always Virgin and wilderness.

Joe: And this isn't,
maybe isn't the best idea.

What do European

Sam: white men want to do with virgins?

You know, let's think
about it for a second.

And, uh, or anyone, any, any people could.

The colonizers, not just
white, but certainly, yeah.

Joe: I can't think of a single
film that captures the yeah.

the romance of nature.

Oh, absolutely because it's in the
contract context of a war, but.

yeah,

Sam: we're buddies, but yes,
but I will say this about Malik

that he's not falling for.

The, like the nature
is the Virgin fallacy.

Like it.

It's brutal.

That's right.

And he's.

And he's locating.

This is not an, this is not a timeless,
untouched, primitive landscape.

No, no.

What he's saying is.

There were people here already.

Who have lived a certain
way on this landscape?

And then there's these other people
that came from somewhere else.

And brought this other reality and
landed it on top of these people.

And that's just the 20th century foyer.

Like it.

It was a hell of a ride.

It's sort of what he's saying, I think,
and then this is great, but at the

Emory, you know, this is a, and then
I w like, we're all just sparks from

one big fire or something like that.

I was like, yeah, that's cool.

So much great writing in that.

A lot of great writing.

Joe: I like it.

Yeah.

Yeah, you are.

Somewhat off.

With the fairies.

Sam: Yeah, absolutely.

And then, well, here's two
more examples that would serve,

Joe: But you're not
supposed to think about it.

What's your favorite film of all time?

Oh, straight down the line.

Sam: See that struggle for immersion that
you've had in more recent years, I've

experienced that all the way through.

Joe: You were never a film school kid.

Uh, yeah.

But

Sam: like an English nerd, but
also when I was 10 years old.

I was constantly like, but wait a minute.

Who's that?

Where did they come from?

Or I'd be, or if I learned to shut up
eventually, but I'd be like, I'll be

like, but like, but where did they live?

What does he do for a job?

How does anyone, how
did they suddenly get.

I'm just like too many
unanswered questions.

Not good for that.

Well, I'm glad one film
thin red line came along and

Joe: blew your mind.

Sam: Yeah.

Oh, man.

I had another good one a while ago,
but yeah, Ellie, We w we were chatting.

There was a lot of, let me see.

There was some Barbara Streisand.

There was some, uh, Yeah.

Ali: So this is, I mean, I do
like old movies and I guess.

Watching them.

It was a really nice thing
that my mum would do with,

cause my mum loves old movies.

So it was always a thing like
where they used to show them

on the ABC on a Friday night.

But then my mom also collected old movies.

And so we would, so she
exposed us to a lot of.

yeah.

Old movies and like from the
thirties and forties, Oh, really?

Yeah.

So the first Lucky's.

Lucky's yeah.

So the melodrama.

So the first one.

That I remember watching was Stella
Dallas with Barbara Stanwyck and it's

this woman who, she sort of, you would
say like a bit tacky, a bit trashy.

And she meets this very sophisticated
and very handsome and lovely man

and falls, madly in love with him.

And.

And they have a baby and it's.

But ultimately they've come from such two
different worlds that, you know, that.

The relationship sort of breaks down.

And she's got this beautiful daughter
and it just sort of shows her moving

through life on her own after the
breakup and what she sacrifices.

For her daughter to be able to have that
life that she knows would be best for her.

there's just.

At the same, which I shared, I think
in the group chat where she's standing.

You know, in the rain, the rain looking
through like the gates, watching her.

Daughter get married, finally get married
and like, you know, and she's looking

really bedraggled and, and, you know, the
police offers like police officer comes

up instead of getting them to move along.

And she's like, I just
want to see a kiss him.

Oh, I'm going to start crying.

Yeah, it just, it was so this woman
who was sort of a bit tacky and

ridiculous, and there was something.

so aspirational but all about her, but
also at the same time, really realistic.

And like I said, sacrificing
her own happiness for her.

Child's happiness.

Which I, and I watched that,
uh, quite a young age, but.

even now, still thinking about it.

There is something that I
obviously identified with.

And then.

If we're thinking then.

And that when I was a little bit older,
I watched now voyage out with, bet Davis.

And she plays like someone who's
basically had a nervous breakdown.

Um, she lives with a
really controlling mother.

she's sort of, Hamot a shut-in,
but she finally gets the.

courage to go on this cruise and then
falls in love with a married man.

and it obviously doesn't work out.

And it's just, again, this tragedy
and sacrificing her own happiness

to take care of her mother.

And then

Sam: themes emerging

Ali: themes are emerging.

And then I would say like
probably my favorite and the one

that I've watched more than any
other, because I love a musical.

I love, again, the melodrama of
Eddie's Barbara Streisand in funny go.

Yeah, that's great.

She she's absolutely brilliant in it.

And So it's based on Fanny.

Brice is real.

You know, actress and.

yes, she sort of makes a name for
herself being this daggy awkward.

But very talented.

Um, star, but she does not look
like the other women, like the

other women or the tall leggy.

You know, beautiful sort of, you know,
actresses on the stage, you know, singing

and stuff, but she's got this incredible
voice, but she's, she's hamming it up.

She's taking control of.

The joke, like the very
famous scene where.

When she first comes out.

The

Sam: brassy one, not the.

Classy.

Ali: like he wants her to play it, you
know, like, you know, you're supposed

to be this beautiful bride and she
comes out on stage with a pillow, shoved

up under a dress as she's a pregnant
bride and she's, and everyone's sort of

like shocked, but she's like, I can't
pretend to be beautiful because I'm not.

but she also, she owns it and then
she becomes wildly successful.

And again, Falls for man.

Sam: I don't know,

Ali: Riddled with, he's a gambler.

He.

Loses all his money.

There's like all this pride she had,
all she wants to do is support him.

She she's willing to
sacrifice this amazing career.

for him because she just wants to be with
him and, Ultimately he, and he ends up

going to jail and she ends up putting,
She, she puts her life on hold and she's

willing, she's waiting there for him.

And she's like, I will be
there when you come out.

But he sort of is like, no, I can't.

And breaks our heart.

And the scene at the end where she's
seeing, you know, my man, that song.

Okay.

I love it, you know, and she's
singing about like, yeah, that she

would just do anything for him and
sacrifice her own happiness and.

I just, like I said, I started
to thinking about these movies.

Um, Head in a bit of a down one spot.

It's like, okay.

I'm.

Like I need, even if I
think of other ones, like.

Yeah,

Joe: so sacrificing for
the sun sacrificing.

The mother is very strong.

For the partner?

Yes.

Yeah,

Ali: like you're willing to
put your happiness on hold.

Jesus.

Yeah, and I.

If I look at the patterns
of my relationships and.

Relationships within my
family relationships within.

Oh, Without getting too much into a trauma
history of the things that I have done.

To protect your family.

Yes.

that it was a great cost to myself.

It's something that I very much relate
to and whether it was, you know, putting

my dreams on hold to support our partner.

Um, whether it was, yeah, like I
said, making those sacrifices to

protect a family member, whether
it was Prioritizing other people's.

Health and wellbeing above my own.

And.

It's like, oh,

Sam: This is strong stuff.

Yes.

It's strong stuff like.

Ali: identify with cause and
all of those characters as well.

There's sort of an
ugliness to the women in.

Yes.

Like, you know, Barbara
Streisand plays like this.

Uh, you know, sort of awkward and attract.

Yeah.

Sam: Flattering.

Yeah.

Like she's not, she's

Ali: not the beautiful one.

The same as like when, um, you know,
bet Davis is on the cruise and stuff.

She buys a few nice outfits and she
sort of makes the most of herself,

but she's not, she's supposed
to be quite a homely sort of.

Yeah.

And even, and yeah, Stella.

It's a hard

Sam: sell with Betty Davis.

Same with

Ali: Barbara.

Stanwyck.

She's a stunningly beautiful woman.

But, yeah, there's a scene where she's
walking through a golf course and these

young kids are like laughing header
and calling her like a Christmas tree

because she's jangling because she's got
so many accessories on and she's yeah.

So this trashy.

Yeah.

This woman.

And there's something
that I've, I think it

Sam: relates to that.

I'm like, that looks

Ali: like a manic episode
she's wearing like, yeah.

Fad jacket and all the jewelry and stuff.

And I'm like, oh God.

Sorry.

Yeah, I really, I was like, Ooh, I really.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

I just think things to identify with that.

Sam: And you called it a downward spiral.

I had

Ali: a bit of panic about like, oh
God, how have I moved on from this?

I feel like I've been in therapy.

Have I moved off?

But I still love these
movies or is it that there.

Fundamentally ingrained into me, like.

That I have, I've had a similar
experience that I can relate to.

Over my life and how those changing
sort of similar, like yeah,

self-sacrifice being the theme.

But in different ways.

Yeah.

Sam: I think there's so much in it.

felt privileged to witness.

It's a rare thing outside of therapy.

And you witnessing yourself in
therapy, having a breakthrough to

see someone else really putting the
pieces together, like before your

eyes it's was so-called And it really
confirmed, like I said, I couldn't see.

I didn't quite understand why
psychoanalysis was so important when

talking about cinema when I was 19.

Yeah.

Now I get it.

And it is such a clear demonstration
of so many things that are going on,

but it just raises as many questions.

for example, The most
pressing question I think is.

To use a term from the
conspiracy community.

Predictive programming.

Ali: So, where are

Sam: these films?

Exploring and acknowledging the pain and
sacrifice and loyalty of these women.

And calling that heroism
and in the process.

So are they acknowledging the suffering
of women or are they creating it?

And it's in some

Ali: ways socializing.

Yeah.

From a young age to believe
that that is the thing to do.

Correct.

But you were shown hundreds

Joe: of movies and you chose three.

Ali: True.

Joe: Your mom, didn't say what
his movie on repeat until you

learn how no, it doesn't matter.

But at some

Sam: point, even if your self programming
is sort of, who's imposing, it is

sort of in a sense, not important,
but, but you are right Joe, that.

There's no denying.

Allie was drawn to these at a young age.

Okay.

So, which, and I enter

Ali: in.

In all fairness, like with my history,
the sacrifice started at a very young age.

Yeah, well,

Sam: that's what.

This

Joe: is Millie over.

Like once your son grows up
and lose out, do you think.

Yeah.

We're into a new,

Ali: yeah.

That's certainly something.

Joe: We still have.

Something over you.

Yeah.

Make you feel bad if you
don't go to such and such.

Ali: Ruling emotions.

Like guilt.

I think that's something I'm always
going to struggle with, but I.

I do think like one of the biggest
things I've taken from therapy in

the last few years has been that
it's okay to put myself first.

And in fact, I should
put myself first, even.

Before my son, because at the end
of the day, I can't be the parent.

I need to be.

If I'm not taking care of myself, Yeah.

Because that has been the theme of, yeah.

It's.

You can't

Sam: parent from a place of guilt.

It doesn't work.

So, yeah,

Ali: Neglecting myself in every
way, whether it was physically,

emotionally, psychologically.

Aye.

I neglected myself for a really long time.

And I feel like I have made.

Really meaningful effort.

In my life to start to do things.

To fill my cup up and, you know, put
myself first and whether that's exercise

or eating healthier or going to therapy
or, and prioritizing time for myself and.

Do you know, and trying to have
activities and things that are good

for me that are just for me, that.

That's really outside of being
a parent or, my job, my family.

That is just for me.

So I do feel like.

I've certainly started to turn a
corner and that, that is not my

emo anymore to just immediately.

Put my, My needs secondary to
whoever else is forever on sake.

Yeah.

Joe: The deepest psychological level.

Would you still quite like to be martyred?

Ali: Mm.

Joe: Yeah.

It's

Ali: interesting.

Mm.

Joe: like if the right cut guy came
along, would you go and get martyred

for him while he was in jail, though?

Sam: was Jim Morrison said, did
you have a good world when you

die enough to base a movie on.

Yeah.

Ali: I don't know.

I don't want this

Sam: cinematic life.

Ali: Yeah.

I want

Sam: contentment, fulfillment and peace.

Ali: Yeah.

I think at some that like in a
really, you know, romanticized, but

also deeply troubling way when I
was younger, I probably would have

absolutely been like, yeah, I've
sacrificed and, and been okay with that.

But not anymore.

I don't want that for myself anymore.

Sam: Yeah, you don't have
any romantic illusion about

Ali: no.

There's no romantic illusion about
like, Giving all that up for, my son,

for a partner, for his family, for
anything like that, because I can't

actually do the things that I want to
do if I'm coming from that place of.

Complete neglect.

Sam: So the power of cinema
to reveal these things to.

Uh, us or the very least we can
look back on the things, the texts

we were drawn to, and we can.

We can draw some powerful conclusions.

and we can see the
illusions, but also just.

Joe: You know, a binary that constantly
really occurs on this show is.

Uh, male, female split.

And how mail.

And masculine.

The characters, we identify with
salmon, how extremely feminine.

I mean, there are three films.

Ali: Probably in the
extreme version, like.

The

Joe: three films that
I do not want to watch.

I talk like they sound terrible
to me, So it's interesting.

Incredible.

However, whatever point we're at
in 2024, actually we fall back

into these gender stereotypes.

Denify with

Ali: socialization.

Is it?

Or is it something that we've come to
by ourselves through our own experience.

It's it's it's complex.

I don't think it's
either one or the other.

Yeah.

That's probably a bit
of influence of both.

Sam: Yeah.

Joe: And that's, dude's
identify with dues and chicks.

Identify with.

Sam: But can I say,
well, once I got to the.

Because you also in this same
text thread, you reminded me that.

What a sentimental lad I was, and I
really liked things like beaches by bet.

Midland.

And Moonstruck with Cher And
I've always liked romcoms.

Especially.

Ones that had a bit of a gritty edge to
them, or, but I kind of don't mind that.

Tabloid pap either.

Like I like it all.

So I don't necessarily have highfalutin
tastes even though yeah, sure.

Thin red line, you know, technically
classified as an art film, but if

you want my opinion, I think it was a
successful, fairly populist film, really.

It just had to go up against
saving private Ryan, what I was

going to get to is I think that
the, the best cinemas helps me.

See.

Because there's lots of great films about
dudes that are trying to be that hero and

it's not working and it causes problems
and they have to disconnect with reality.

There's lots of good films that do that.

I can't remember the names right now, but.

Films where there's a glide,
trying to solve problems through

like decisive masculine action.

And it doesn't work.

Basically connected to
feelings and talk it through.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

And in the end, I just
decided to go bowling.

Exactly.

Which is exactly actually
my hero's journey.

Yes.

It's like, ah, fuck.

All this crazy shit happens in the world.

And yeah, Joe, you got to pick
the kids up from school now.

Oh, okay.

yeah.

You know, it's like a
constantly waking up.

It was all a dream.

Yeah.

Well, no, whatever.

No one's tapping you on the shoulder mate.

Like to come and be the hero.

Yeah, but you do have
to go get those kids.

Oh, okay.

Not try it yeah, I mean, it's interesting
how deep the such psychological

side of this topic has been.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean.

Allie dug deep.

Yeah.

I learned a lot and.

Remains.

Well, can I.

Just someone who identifies
with someone who's a little bit.

Well, let me get into clouds.

And make

Sam: it to nature.

Let me be more vulnerable.

I gotta say it's some real,
like basic bitch, like stuff.

That I'm going to.

Celebrate.

Okay.

When Harry met Sally.

Yeah.

It is.

Ali: Deeply entertaining.

Sam: And very moving.

Yeah.

And that genuinely the pie is
really got some good payoffs in it.

Yeah.

That's how I feel about
four weddings and a funeral.

It's good.

Yeah.

And actually that one really
landed with me at the right time

because my mother had passed.

And that the funerals.

So, so yes.

Joe: And the absolute
height stop all the bell.

Uh, stuff, all the clocks.

Oh, amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing moment in a film.

Sam: Yeah, I've really enjoyed here.

Grants work and.

Bridget Jones.

Oh, Literally one of my favorite movies.

Yes.

Yeah.

Ali: Very much.

Favorite, especially in my early twenties,
when that was a pop hugely popular.

Yeah, I was that woman who
changed smoked was chubby.

Drank too much.

Yes.

That's problematic.

Wow.

Very much.

I was Bridget Jones.

And I was okay.

Sam: Relational.

They're relational.

Joe: Yeah.

Shit, just judge is a much better role
model than those other three women.

Yeah, I agree.

Ali: I mean, yes, there was
a ridiculousness about him.

I have a

Joe: slapstick quality.

You want to try to call me?

Yes.

It's something

Ali: that I really related to.

I think he broke your neck,

Joe: getting something out of a car,

Ali: putting my son in the car.

Yes.

Breaks down putting

Joe: this son in the car.

Oh, my God.

That is slapstick.

If you, Nick, wasn't actually literally
broking that that would be hilarious.

And that's right.

Reality.

It's like, oh my God.

Ali: And that's.

It's been so many moments.

Sandy's

Sam: pulling the baby out of the car.

Barbra Streisand's in bed.

Ali: Yeah.

About my life.

I've yeah.

Bridget.

Oh, she just, yeah, again, but
it's that making that choice and

chasing the Hugh Grant's yes.

Like the one that's not good for her.

Yeah.

There's something that's
compelling her to go.

Yeah.

And

Joe: you're still doing it to this day.

Sam: Well, I think we should wrap it up.

I was going to say no, cause.

I found it very interesting
to reflect just now on.

Who did I identify within?

So like identified with Renee Zellweger's
character, but I also identified with.

Colin Firth and Hugh grant.

So that was fun to like have three black.

And the scene where the two
of them having a fistfight.

It is the most hysterical thing.

All times.

It's incredible.

Ali: Exactly how.

Yeah, Darren men fight when
you actually seen a fight.

That is what they look like.

It's so ridiculous.

Sam: How did two trained actors?

Because the worry would be,
they'd have forgotten how to pull

off a thing like that because
they've had too much training,

but no, they absolutely crush it.

And it's it's dust the best thing.

It's one of the best
sequences in all the cinema.

I swear by it.

like if I had to, at the end of
the day, I'm like, yeah, I'm Renee

Zellweger, like in that film.

And when Harry met Sally,
I could identify with.

With Billy Crystal's.

Avoidant.

Attachment in there.

And that moment where, they've just had
sex and then afterwards, and he's like,

Staring at the ceiling.

What do I do now?

And I'm like, yep.

I've been there.

I think now, I think, I feel a bit more
like Meg Ryan, honestly, these days.

And I'd say the same
about, You've got mail.

Yeah.

I think I was kind of the cynical.

I prefer timeless.

In Seattle.

Yeah.

Ali: Well, I mean, Again, right.

Sam: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And yeah, no, I could, and again,
I could take either part in that.

And they relate to either.

But I would say, I think going from
being like the cynical, smart talking

guy in you've got mail to like the, yeah.

The earnest sincere
little book shop owner.

It's like, yeah, I think I'm her.

And, and yeah, it's, it's.

Like, it's just fun to think about.

If your identifications
changed over the years.

Cause what's fun about a romcom
is that the roles are usually

balanced to some degree.

Like they, we don't really
have a central figure.

We have.

Two people having a hero's
journey at the same time.

Where, where their quest coincides,
And I think maybe that's why it's such

a rewarding genre and one that I've
always been drawn to because as much

as I had heroes that I really admired.

I think there was always just
something holding me back from going.

I am Robin hood in prince of thieves.

It's like, oh no, no, no.

Kevin, Costner's a movie star.

Yeah, he's doing that.

I can't see me doing that.

You know, like even in fantasy, like
it's just, it's not going over for me.

I want to be Alan Rickman,
you know, call off Christmas.

So it's just.

Just the, yeah.

I left it

Ali: just small, like.

I love.

I mean, I think

Joe: for me, it's a secret.

It's just, it's not an aspiration.

It's believable.

It's a secret hope.

I know that I'll be John Connor.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Like if AI blows up the world,
I'll be John Connor and I'll be

protecting my mum or whatever.

Right.

and if reality turns out to be a complete
illusion, I'll be Neo and I'll see through

the whole thing and I'll save humanity.

But it's not like it's not.

Got me thinking I'm capable of that.

It's like in my secret where nobody
can see little private realm.

secretly identifying or with a
detached heat man, like when I'm

dating and stuff like that, it's
like, there's a detachment and yeah.

And, and like I said, in the end at
44, It's the detachment of the Hitman.

A little bit capable of.

Um, And no signs of savior
of humanity that trial.

At this point.

Sam: But unlike the Hitman, you have
the reverence for life and it's like,

okay, so what's the secret fantasy.

That you know, the secret hope.

I think you called it.

Yeah.

It's about

Joe: capability.

Yeah.

I'll have so much.

Capability.

Yes.

Whereas in my actual life, Like
I do a job that I done for 20

years, but every time I'll worry.

The night before, like, oh, fuck,
am I going to fuck this up tomorrow?

And it's like, The opposite.

Of the confidence of a hero in a movie.

Yeah.

My actual life

Sam: resolute.

Although I do think the best characters
do display fear and uncertainty, and I've

always thought that was more convincing.

And then that enables the
suspension of disbelief more easily.

Yeah.

Dan Rambo just strike.

Yeah.

They'll have gunfire.

Whereas Stallone in the first Rocky
movie, that's, that's a different matter.

He's very vulnerable or stolen.

Yeah, all this Rambo.

Bruce diehard.

Yeah.

Relatable.

That's right?

Yeah, that's a fun one.

again, Alan Rickman.

Joe: but I don't think we should just
endlessly drawing on about film to film.

Well, I want you to go.

Sam: I want it to try and satisfy.

Your challenge to me, which is I'd
haven't necessarily revealed enough.

And so the secret hope and why was I.

Continually drawn to these
melodramas like beaches and.

The N romcoms.

And who, what is the secret hope?

And I think.

What we know with beaches that, well,
it's the fear that you'll be the tragic

character who dies young, but I think
I've really wanted to be bet mid low

and like the B the, you know, the triple
threat, like her, like a young character.

Yeah.

And.

Be admired for being talented and.

Uh, and to have quips ready
all the time like that.

Yeah, that was very aspirational.

I really wanted that.

And then when it comes to the
romcoms, now, I don't want

to be the dashing handsome.

Bloke.

If anything I'll relate to
the bumbling types, much more.

But.

I'll I'll say it.

I want to be like rescued
by the perfect lover.

There you go.

Like, I'm not too big to admit it.

You know, And I think that, you
know, as we were talking about

the polarities in dating, uh,
dating profiles between episodes.

that traditional, traditionally
defined feminine energy of

like, yeah, come find me.

And create the life.

That I've always wanted to be

Joe: rescued by the perfect lover.

Yeah.

I want to be

Sam: found and yeah.

Joe: It's about.

Sam: We're go on.

Which film?

Joe: No, that's.

I couldn't tell you, but
of course I want that.

Sam: Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to be found in place.

Yeah.

Ali: Oh, yeah.

Like, yeah.

I think everybody does.

Don't they like, there's a part of it.

If you can.

Yes.

Like someone just is
going to fix everything.

That would be amazing.

We're all

Joe: been sold.

A massive lie.

Ali: Romanticism.

So unrealistic

Sam: found and placed where I belong.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: Yes.

Resolve.

Everything resolved.

Correct.

I mean, as much as I, my ASD just, I
couldn't deal with endings in general,

let alone happy endings and Yeah.

And then make up the rest.

I'm like, yeah.

But then what happens?

And, uh, does he go to work the next
day or does he take the day off?

I need to know.

Um,

Uh, yeah.

But no.

So I think I'm an absolute layup.

Ali, Well, not for really putting
those pieces together so quickly.

Also, you were just like, as soon
as you got, as soon as you mentioned

Barbara Stanwyck, you were off.

Joe: Yeah.

I mean, I wasn't sure if that's a deep
and intellectual podcast could handle a

topic as flippant as your favorite movie.

But, uh, when, all right, and next

Sam: week, favorite colors every time.

Yeah, that's right.

Come back to favorite colors
and favorite footy team.

Uh, what's your star.

But now, Joe, what about that
famous concluding line that

we haven't done for awhile?

Joe: We only do it every
couple of episodes.

Hmm.

That's been another one.

Of the 10,000 things

Sam: it has.

Thank you.

Thanks Sam.