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Patsy quit her job. Susannah quit the city. Now they’re on a quest to find the path through the wobbly middle of their careers. This podcast is for every woman who’s asking “What now?”.
Hosted by Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day, The Wobbly Middle features interviews with famed city superwomen, dazzling entrepreneurs and revolutionary midwives and doctors who reveal what they’ve learnt through their own wobbly middle experiences.
[00:00:07] Susannah de Jager: Welcome to The Wobbly Middle, a podcast about women reinventing their careers, with Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day.
[00:00:21] Patsy Day: Hi, Susannah. How's your Wobbly Middle this week?
[00:00:23] Susannah de Jager: I'm feeling very positive, actually. I am so encouraged by the discussion we're about to have.
I feel like the recruitment industry is being disrupted and ripe for even more and that we can help people think about some of these issues. I really hated the phrase that you and Helen, who we're about to speak to, mentioned the other day of one move left being bandied around by people when you're nearing 50 and I feel so assuredly that this isn't going to be the case for our generation. I hope, personally, to have many new iterations, and I want people listening to feel that they can too. So Pats, how about you?
[00:01:02] Patsy Day: Yes, I've also been thinking about how we put ourselves under terrible time pressures based on bad external perceptions. When I left my job, I gave myself a year off, after which I told myself I'd be ready to do A, B, and C. But it was such a meaningless deadline. In Lucy Ryan's book, Revolting Woman, which I really recommend, she discusses the two different words in the Greek language for time. Chronos, that's the linear time, the tick, tick, tick that really gets in your head, versus Kairos, the qualitative time of life and now, while we're working through what we want to do next, we should be thinking in Kairos time, taking the time to explore and think and breathe and speak to people and I think that kind of time is good time.
[00:01:49] Susannah de Jager: So our guest today is Helen Wright. Helen is a pioneer in our chosen subject matter, an entrepreneur focusing her efforts on women achieving flexible working options and pivoting their careers. Not only is she a poster child for people reinventing themselves after a career break, but she is so resolute about the opportunities that are and should be available to those wanting part time work. I'm thrilled to have her here to discuss her own journey, but also to hear how she facilitates so many others through her business, Nine to Three. Helen, thank you so much for joining today.
[00:02:24] Helen Wright: You're welcome. I'm delighted to be here.
[00:02:26] Susannah de Jager: I'd love to hear a little bit about your first career and how you ended up coming to setting up your own business.
[00:02:33] Helen Wright: Sure, so I was a broadcast journalist for around 10 years and it's a kind of career I suppose, I dreamt of and wanted to try and get into. I think visions of Kate Hady on the telly in war torn wherever, I always found quite, exciting and I went on to have a really fun career in radio and TV and sadly, the crash of 2008, 2009, when hundreds of people were made redundant impacted me and I was one of those people who was made redundant, but at the time I happened to be pregnant. So it was actually quite difficult to then resume a career in journalism, I suppose and that happens to a lot of women in this country, sadly, every year, I think 55, 000 women are made redundant while pregnant, which shouldn't happen, especially not in this day and age, but it does. But I do remember sitting in the newsroom and I just looked around and I just felt a tear rolling down my cheek and I just thought, this is it, I'm not coming back, I know I can't come back to this and that was my kind of brief morning period, I suppose. But it was a fun and exciting job and I loved it.
But then I had a period where I embraced motherhood for a few years, and had a career break.
[00:03:53] Susannah de Jager: Thank you for your honesty because so often when people are successful and we're obviously going to come on to what you're doing now, it's easy to rose tint what happened and how you got there and I think that in your case, I was so shocked when you told me that statistic of 55, 000 women, not just made redundant while pregnant, it's a gobsmacking number and I think it's really important that for anyone that's listening, that they realise it's lonely but you are not alone. So you then turned it into rather a positive moment in that you focused on children. But you told us what your husband did during this period which slightly blew my mind. So do you mind elaborating on what you as a family did?
[00:04:34] Helen Wright: Yeah. He happens to be a doctor, but he had an interesting route into being a doctor because we met at university, I was doing history, He was doing geography and then he, I suppose came to the realisation that he wished he'd been a doctor and so he didn't have science A levels and so he then thought, okay, no, I really want to be a doctor. So he went back to school to do science A levels and is now a consultant neurosurgeon. So appreciate that's also, that's quite a random journey, but I'm quite passionate. I suppose I transfer this into recruitment in that anything's possible and I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and our children to be brilliant all the time straight away. We can evolve and we're humans and different stages in our lives and different things happen and that's okay, you know and it's all doable and we shouldn't put this pressure on ourselves. So I was lucky in that I was made redundant at the time that Dan was qualifying as a doctor. So we had a blissful few months where we were both earning and then that stopped. But he moved around hospitals at the time and kind of worked out. So I'm very much a positive person.
[00:05:40] Susannah de Jager: And I think that really comes through when we've spoken about the way you frame that and I read something on the weekend about this, of don't let difficult things you go through become part of your identity and don't internalise it as meaning you can't do something or that it's part of you, it's just something external that happened.
[00:05:57] Helen Wright: Do you know, I speak to people who have been made redundant quite a lot and I think it's great sometimes. It's what they need, you know, and they would say that themselves and in the fact that sometimes making change is hard, that is a real challenge and for someone to give up a job because they're not happy, to hand in their notice, to go and try a new career or something new is really hard for lots of different reasons and so sometimes redundancy can come at a good time. It can be good. I'm not saying it's not stressful. It's stressful and worrying, but you know, try and see the positives and use it as a bouncing board to the next chapter.
[00:06:36] Susannah de Jager: And you focused on family, but you've also spoken about how you then came to start your own business and I'd love to hear a bit more about that, because again, you speak to the fact that it's not linear.
[00:06:48] Helen Wright: So I'd been made redundant from a career that I loved and had pursued for many years and then, moved around with my husband's job. So we moved to different hospitals. We were in Derbyshire, Norfolk, London, Oxfordshire and we had three children in that four or five years and there's a lot going on, any parent will tell you that and I've spoken to hundreds and hundreds of mothers as a recruiter now, but you change a little bit somehow, I think. Before I had children, I don't think I really understood what that meant and then you do, and that's okay and people do change and so for me, I suppose I was then not so much lost, but I suppose I was a bit lost, actually, thinking about it and what was I to do? I don't really want to go back to broadcast journalism, that kind of world, I didn't feel would work with me and a young family. One of the final stories I did was when Madeleine McCann sadly disappeared on a family holiday in Portugal and I flew out there and covered that story. You don't know when you're going to get back, you can't plan things and it's really sad, it was a really sad story. So I knew I wasn't going to return to that kind of work, I do miss it, I love talking to candidates about if they're in working on a PR job or something, I love the gossip and the buzz and all of that. Oh, love it. But yeah, so then, you know, what should I do? Maybe I could retrain to be a solicitor, do some conveyancing, maybe I could do this, not really sure, didn't have great direction and I didn't feel that there was anywhere to get that, I suppose. I kind of backed myself, I could do that, I can do that job, I can have a go at that, but then I couldn't really seem to get anywhere, if you see what I mean CVs weren't really getting through, recruitment agencies weren't that interested in me, I didn't really fit into an obvious box and then I really wanted to try and find something that was either part time or flexible that worked around the children and I couldn't find anything there, because I got to the stage where the youngest child was about two and I thought, yeah, I can get back, I want something for my brain, I want to do something again and I'd applied to all those graduate trainee schemes and I was like, I'm a graduate. Albeit several years ago, I can do this and you know, I've got 20, 30 years left of work in me. I'd actually be really good, I'd stay, I'd be loyal, I'd do this. Yeah and I got really into it and I kept applying and I'd get through the screening tests, I'd get through the quizzes online and I'd be like, yeah, brilliant and then a human would become involved and I'd be invited to the assessment days and before I got there, a human would go, Oh my gosh, she's too old, she's not a recent graduate and there'd be like, oh, there's been some misunderstanding and then my application was kind of curtailed, should we say. I found it really frustrating and I think some businesses are missing out on a great deal of talent by not trying to use and utilise this great army of, I guess, mums who really want to give something back to the workplace and use that great experience. So, but yeah, I was feeling very frustrated at the state of affairs.
[00:09:55] Susannah de Jager: And it's really interesting because actually we said to you, we've also interviewed Helena Morrissey and she said when she left her job from a completely different stage and moment that she also felt very pigeonholed by recruiters that she was speaking to. So I think what you're identifying and clearly what was the kernel of an idea that you turned into a business, is such a uniform experience that people say, Oh, well I'm being told this or I'm being told, no you can't do that and that there's this idea that we all need to fit very neatly for the convenience of others, but not necessarily even to their benefit. I think that's a really interesting point is that by not thinking more broadly, it's actually both sides of that equation that are missing out.
[00:10:39] Helen Wright: Absolutely, absolutely. We speak to candidates who say, you know, I've been a lawyer for 10 years. I'm burnt out, long hours, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore, I want to do something else. But other recruiters would see lawyer on their CV, I'm not saying all recruits, I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, but we would go, okay, so what do you want to do? What skills have you got? Oh great, you're probably really good at negotiating. Yeah, great negotiation skills, excellent communication skills, very organised, great time management, all of these skills and understanding of different things, quick to pick up things that can then be applied in a different situation, and there are lots of businesses out there that would really welcome that talent and probably don't realise that they can get it, but it's out there. From my point of view, I suppose I'd started looking at jobs that were in marketing or PR or comms, just given my journalism background and then I just felt so frustrated that I couldn't get a job.
[00:11:34] Susannah de Jager: And even that gap, they felt that was too far.
[00:11:37] Helen Wright: Yeah. I suppose I'd had a few years out. I'd done some media training in between time, but yeah, it was just, there's a gap on my CV and I guess I didn't have the obvious experience, it was very frustrating, but it was at a time when I was stood in a local village playground, pushing children on a swing, looking around and I just thought, Wow, I am not alone, you are an accountant, you were very senior with a big corporate, you used to work in the city, all these amazing, like, Uxbridge graduates, all these people just stood there. Women, not working, but all really wanting to and that is when I just thought, you know, Oxford, booming, Thames Valley, there must be some kind of opportunity there to enable this group of really talented and motivated individuals to join forward thinking, dynamic businesses and help both groups to thrive.
[00:12:28] Patsy Day: Helen, hi, previously, you said how this wasn't actually your first idea and I loved how you explored all those ideas with your friends and previously, we've spoken about how you, people tend to keep their ideas to themselves and that wasn't your experience, you shared your ideas.
[00:12:46] Helen Wright: Oh gosh, yes, Patsy. I had some mummy friends and they would laugh. They still remind me because I would every now and then come up with an idea for a new business because I couldn't find a job. So I was like, how about this? What about if I make baby grows depending on the parents jobs. Anyway, all these random ideas and my friends would laugh and then one day we'd gone out in the evening for a mum's trip to Ikea and we were coming backand I said ladies, I've got another idea, how about recruitment agency that's all part time and flexible work? And they just, I think they pulled over the car, stopped and went, that's the one, that's the one you've got to do. So I've had a few mentors, which has been great, because essentially, I was a journalist and then I was a stay at home mum. I had a heck of a lot to learn about business and I still do and so I've been lucky enough to meet various mentors along the way and I remember one saying to me, people who keep their great ideas to themselves, they don't always work out, because that's part of the whole process of developing the idea. If you say it out loud and people go, Oh, how about this? How about that? That's all part of it. It can take years to develop an idea, no one's going to steal the idea if it's taken you that long to develop, so just be open with it.
[00:14:04] Patsy Day: At the time, you were starting Nine to Three, flexible was still a very of dirty word. How did you actually get started and what response were you met with?
[00:14:14] Helen Wright: It's interesting, actually, because you wouldn't really think that from the conversations and the sort of landscape that we've got now. But at the time, my background in journalism meant that I was unafraid to pick up the phone and speak to people, you know, having to do quite difficult interviews in the past, picking up the phone. Oh, sorry to hear your husband's just been murdered, can I come and interview you? It's a much harder call to make than, hello, I'm from Nine to Three Jobs, would you like to talk to me about recruitment? So that was fine, although I have to say these days, we don't do any cold calls at all, all our business comes from word of mouth. But I think then, people weren't really talking about flexible working that much and I do remember speaking to a couple of people who just said, what do you mean by it? What is it? Whereas now it's much more common parlance and certainly pre pandemic, no one was really offering remote working. People didn't even really talk about hybrid, I don't think and now, of course, the landscape's changed, but I mean, I set the business up in 2015 and I remember at the time saying, this is a revolution. We are going through a revolution in our workplaces and I kind of said, it's not an overnight one. It's slowly happening and then the pandemic happened. I think it probably brought us forward, what, 10 years or something and so we're seeing, sure, mums want part time flexible working for obvious reasons. We're seeing loads more dads. We're seeing a lot more young people, I think the statistic is three quarters of the under 24s have got a side hustle, so they want a bit of flex around that and I don't think people should be threatened by side hustles, you know, I think they add to a person, all sorts of entrepreneurial and ideas and creativity and good things. So I think it's a really exciting time and now I think obviously we've got ideas and proposals from the Labour government. Not sure when they're coming in, they might already be in by the time people listen to this, but they're exciting too and the idea that people have the right to switch off when working from home and all of these different ideas. So I think it's a genuinely exciting landscape.
[00:16:13] Susannah de Jager: And just adding to that, you're obviously talking about the flexible side of things, but have you seen a shift in people's perception of this skills versus experience? And to your point around a side hustle being additive, do you still feel like you're having to educate employers.
[00:16:27] Helen Wright: I think that whole subject is interesting and quite varied. So we speak to candidates who have, for example, got a side hustle and that's okay because we specialise in part time and flexible working. So if the client is looking for someone four days a week, that's fine. The piece that we have a lot of conversations around is the career gap on a CV, to highlight it or not to highlight it and I suppose it depends on the kind of sector someone's going into. So if it's accountancy and finance and law, that kind of thing, do they need to still be up to speed? If they've left at a certain level, will they be able to return at that level? When it comes to career breaks, we encourage people to think about what they've done in them. The CV is very personal, it's up to the candidate, but you know what? I wouldn't want to work anywhere if I had to hide a big part of myself, for example the fact that I'm a mum, so having a career break I think is okay to show and can sort of humanise a candidate a little bit.
[00:17:25] Patsy Day: Yes, I've heard you say before, let's celebrate people taking career breaks and let's support people who are staying at work and it also seems that the flexible working has been so fantastic, but at the moment as we adjusting and it's still new with hybrid working, there is a double edged sword nature to it.
[00:17:47] Helen Wright: I always say there's no one size fits all, in that there's no one size fits all for each candidate, every candidate has different needs, caring responsibilities, whether they're caring for sick relatives, elderly, parents, children, whatever the reasons reflects, they're all individuals and to the same end, businesses are all individuals, every business needs to be the priority when you're hiring, you know, otherwise it won't work. We have seen some larger companies who are trying to get people to be back into the office more and then we've seen a lot of candidates saying, no, why should I? I've worked very productively away from the office, why should I go back to the office now? And so, they'll leave and they back themselves, they're good candidates, so they'll go and do well and there are different reasons why people are sort of being pulled back to the office . Maybe big companies own the offices. Some sectors, they want to have the juniors being mentored by seniors, there are different reasons, but I do think now there is more choice about how we work.
[00:18:52] Susannah de Jager: We've spoken quite a lot about how the businesses will think about their needs, how to help them maybe identify the difference between skills and the experience that they might traditionally have only looked for something that was a direct fit. But you obviously see lots of candidates coming to you saying, I want something different, but perhaps not having identified it yet themselves, exactly what it is.
I'd love to hear if you had a couple of pieces of advice for people that might be listening who are in that camp right now.
[00:19:19] Helen Wright: Oh my gosh, these conversations, yeah. Sometimes candidates have had some kind of career coaching and they have really thought through their lives. Others are just at the start of their journey and they're just not really sure. So I suppose in that situation, we'd say, what do you like in a job? What do you enjoy? What are you good at? And for some people, you know, salary is a driving force and for others, it is something that's creative or something they've always wanted to do or it's the hours, sometimes I think particularly women can be quite self deprecating, you know and they just need reminding that they're brilliant a lot of the time and they do have fantastic things to offer a business and sometimes, I mean, I don't know about you, but I remember careers guidance at school, which I think told me I needed to be a librarian or something, I can't really remember, pretty basic stuff and there are so many jobs out there. That's one reason I love being a recruiter. Oh my gosh, this business does that, of course, we need someone who does that, I love it and there are all these different jobs out there that no one really often knows about. So we'd just say, talk to us, keep an eye on our websites, look out there, think about what you want to do, think about what you're good at and we have talked about skills based CVs with candidates before, which it's really for candidates who are perhaps looking at a career change and in this situation, we would suggest highlighting your key transferable skills and maybe on the front page have five or six of those, and underneath those skills have really tangible examples the number of times I've seen CVs where it's kind of a little bit, I don't know, they're just words, oh, I'm great at communicating, really good team manager, really excellent at, I don't know, Microsoft or something. Oh my gosh, no, tell me good things like, I led this project, which we finished a month early and I had this feedback or I was top salesperson for four months and achieved 98 percent rise in some turnover. I don't know, just give me something other than just words.
[00:21:28] Susannah de Jager: It makes me smile. The other day for something I am looking at in this phase of my life, where I am probably exactly the kind of person you speak to a lot of the time, I was trying to recast my own CV for something and I actually just put it through ChatGPT, because this tool now exists where it will present back to you the same information but entirely turned upside down five times if you ask it to and I would just say that out loud because hopefully people are playing around with it. But it can be hard to see the wood for the trees when it's your output and I just found that really helpful. It literally flipped it all on its head for me.
[00:22:04] Helen Wright: I think it can be a great starting point, sometimes people say, Oh my gosh, I've got to write a covering letter, I've not done that for 20 years. Just say, just try ChatGPT, take it away and then add your touches to it, you know it's daunting, isn't it? If you've not done it for ages.
[00:22:19] Susannah de Jager: Absolutely.
[00:22:19] Patsy Day: So, the thinking behind The Wobbly Middle is we're looking at women in their sort of forties and fifties who may be looking to reinvent their careers, to transition. Do you see a lot of women coming to you at that phase in their lives?
[00:22:34] Helen Wright: Yes, oh my gosh, yes and I remember speaking to women who are sort of, I don't know, they're late forties and they maybe say, I've got one move left in me before no one will take me seriously and I think that's really sad. I mean, I've spoken about ageism in the workplace before, but I think there's a whole market for businesses to take, say, the over 55s really seriously, because the over 55s have probably got another 10, 15 years work in them and most people would stay in a job for four or five years. so 10, 15 years is a nice chunk of time. They bring with them years of experience and I think sometimes gravitas that smaller businesses might really appreciate as well. Some candidates would say, I want to hide my date of birth on my CV, fine, you don't have to put it on there, but they might remove dates that they were at university, for example, but that's a personal choice.
[00:23:27] Susannah de Jager: And we discussed previously, and this point around organisations want people back in the workplace because often it's to do with training of the younger people and we discussed that concept of if you hire all the people perhaps, families, have now got through that phase, they want to come back in, they want that community aspect, they're giving back, in an organisation but can take huge value and purpose from helping bring on those younger people and that there seem to be so many additive policies, whether it's within a corporate or at a governmental level, that could really answer some of these questions structurally.
[00:24:01] Helen Wright: Gosh, yeah. I mean, that is something that I was talking to someone about and she said, what do you think to this? I was like, this is brilliant and the more I thought about it, the more I thought this job share idea of having someone who's perhaps returning from maternity leave to someone who's maybe had a career break and is returning following, perhaps their children are now at university, so there is an age gap. Having those two in one job share, I think, would be really powerful for an organisation and they could mentor each other and help with issues of confidence, which I'm sure both parties would feel at different levels, they'd have different experience and they could really bring something to that role, I think, possibly greater than one individual could bring and have continuity in the role as well.
[00:24:46] Patsy Day: It does feel like there's room at this time with hybrid working for real innovation. Prior to the pandemic, job shares were new, part time was quite limited and places that offered part time were usually quite proud of themselves and yet now with, like you say, the flexible working revolution, it feels like a time when there can be innovative solutions.
[00:25:10] Helen Wright: Definitely, a hundred percent. I think it's such an exciting time and you know, flexible working, we've got so much evidence now that shows that a flexible workforce is more productive, You know, there is greater staff retention, there are fewer sick days, there are so many benefits to a business and I was speaking to an organisation last week and they employ I think 50 or 60 people and they've decided to trial a four day week. So the employees all work four days but get paid for five. They all have Friday off and I said, how do you do this? This is amazing. Do you change people's job descriptions? And they said, well, no, we just all work smarter. said, meetings that would drag on for perhaps an hour are now half an hour and we have an agenda that's emailed around in advance, we don't drift off for long lunch breaks, we just work smarter, they said and they're trialing it and I think at the moment it seems to be working and everyone's very excited about it.
[00:26:06] Susannah de Jager: And that's so encouraging. Only today I was reading a piece in the newspaper that was saying that the mental health cost to businesses in the UK is estimated to be 57 billion annually and so when you consider that there is any discourse around this, when there's been so much positive proof, not necessarily productivity there, we get both sides of the coin sometimes in the data, but the mental health and the time off from work, given that it's such a rising problem and potential cost for a company to bear, it does seem to me that this is only going to keep moving down this pathway.
[00:26:38] Helen Wright: I think huge and I think for small businesses, you can really tap into some amazing talent that you might not be able to afford otherwise, you know, by offering this level of flex, I spoke to a charity a while ago and they offered unlimited annual leave. I said, wow, how does that work? That's amazing and they said, well, as long as everyone gets their jobs done they can take whenever they want off. We don't mind, just take it off and they said, do you know what? They don't take as much holiday as they would do if they were allocated holiday, because if you're allocated say 25 days a year, you'll count them off, you'll mark them down, you'll make sure you take every 25 days. But if it's unlimited, no one's really counting, they just take what they need and they're happier. They feel valued and trusted.
[00:27:21] Susannah de Jager: Going back to when you founded your business and you spoke about you have mentors, was there anything else that you either wish you'd known or that you would absolutely recommend to somebody that was starting out own business?
[00:27:34] Helen Wright: I think I would have liked a female mentor. There was one woman who I did meet, who I'm still in touch with, who's great and I do remember not sure whether to make my first hire and I just stood watching my son at football training in the rain and I thought, I'm just going to phone and phoned her. She said, go for it Helen and that was nice and I do think I'm quite an open person, so I quite like having people to talk to because running a business is very lonely and it is also quite personal. So there are some things you don't really necessarily want to share, but I think having someone to talk to and there are groups out there and networking groups that you can join to do that and I think that's good. I think the thing that I found surprising was that everyone hates recruiters.
[00:28:19] Patsy Day: Oh, you're speaking to a lawyer, I couldn't possibly understand that.
[00:28:23] Helen Wright: And a former journalist as well. So I'm very used to that sort of hate, but I was like, Oh my gosh, I did not expect this. But yeah, there we go.
[00:28:32] Patsy Day: I would like to know a little bit more what advice you give to someone on how to take those first steps to set up a business.
[00:28:40] Helen Wright: I think there's low barrier to entry setting up businesses and that's one reason why I thought I can do this recruitment agency. I don't need to qualify in anything. Can just do it. Just need a laptop and a pen, notepad, phone and I just say, do it, have a go and like I say, tell people about your ideas, take feedback. It's really easy to set up websites now. Don't be put off, don't be daunted by anything, even bookkeeping is all, this accounting software, everything is there to really, I suppose, make it easy for you and you will fail at times and you might not make millions straight away, but go on, have a go, back yourself, go for it and then when you do grow, call me and we can help.
[00:29:24] Susannah de Jager: There she is, selling! Excellent, love it.
[00:29:28] Patsy Day: And what advice would you give to your 30 year old self about your career?
[00:29:32] Helen Wright: Oh Patsy, that is a good one. I don't know, I think just enjoy it and I think speak to people who are unhappy in work and I think that's really sad because work is such a big part of our lives, you know and we shouldn't feel unhappy in work, we should enjoy what we do and be proud of what we do and if you're not, maybe start thinking about how you can be.
[00:29:54] Patsy Day: I have had jobs which I've loved, and then so I've known what it's like not to love a job and I consider myself lucky because some people have never loved a job and don't know that you can. So I suppose there's also something in what you say that if you don't love your job, know that it doesn't have to be that way.
[00:30:11] Helen Wright: Yeah and I think, you know, we're working with humans and what's the saying, you can't choose your family, but you can choose your friends and you can choose your workmates to some extent.
[00:30:19] Susannah de Jager: And just to build on that, if you meet somebody that's in that situation, how do you recommend that they start navigating without creating a sort of cliff edge moment? Because I think that can be so daunting and when you look at the why somebody might stay in that scenario, it's often going to be fear of the unknown. risk
[00:30:40] Helen Wright: Yeah, it is hard, isn't it? And it's hard at the moment when we have actually seen quite a lot of people have been made redundant recently. We're registering a lot of candidates who have been made redundant and that's a worry. You know, there are cost of living and all of these financial pressures on people. I just, I'm a big believer in conversations. You're not going to get a job If you're not sending out your CV and having conversations with people, the jobs aren't necessarily going to come to you and I've heard candidates say, gosh, you know, it's a full time job,finding a new job which it can be, but you've got to be prepared to put yourself out there and we have conversations with candidates around LinkedIn, for example and some candidates perhaps aren't really very active on LinkedIn and don't know very much about it and I think it can be a useful starting place, but if you're going to get stuck in there, it's like, you know, you're the new girl at school and you kind of have to go, Hi, does anyone want to play with me? I'm here! You know, you have to kind of make a comment and you have to post something, make it work for you a little bit, but it is a bit daunting, but don't worry.
Helen,
[00:31:43] Susannah de Jager: thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation, both around your experience, but also with your perspective on all the candidates you see. Thank you.
[00:31:51] Patsy Day: Thank you very much.
[00:31:52] Helen Wright: Thank you.
[00:31:56] Patsy Day: Oh, Susannah, isn't Helen fabulous?
[00:31:59] Susannah de Jager: Yeah, I found that just such a positive conversation and I think it's really important that those people out there who might feel that they had their agency taken away from them in the end of a period of their career can take that positive message about the opportunity that's actually available to them rather than framing it all in a negative way and Helen is just the best advocate for that attitude.
[00:32:22] Patsy Day: Yes, to help them ride through their own wobbly middle.
[00:32:25] Susannah de Jager: Yeah, and I can't wait to hear more stories that show people how we can do that.