Episode #3 Misha Gurevich — Flow States, Self-Doubt & the Creative Process

 In this intimate and playful conversation, host Hava Gurevich speaks with long-time friend and fellow creative, Misha Gurevich—a software designer, writer, meditator, and seeker of flow. Though they’ve known each other for over 15 years, this marks their very first face-to-face dialogue, and the result is a deeply reflective exploration of creativity, consciousness, and the transformational power of letting go.

This is a playful and thought-provoking conversation, and I’m so excited to share it with you.


Misha shares his journey from working in tech in San Francisco to enrolling at Maharishi International University, where a deep dive into meditation and creative writing sparked a lifelong fascination with flow states. Together, they discuss how self-doubt creeps into the creative process, and how tools like meditation, free writing, and play can unlock a more intuitive, joyful way of being.

Hava and Misha compare notes on their creative practices—painting, writing, coding, kiteboarding—and discover surprising common threads. They speak candidly about the tension between art and commerce, and the importance of carving out “throwaway” moments—spaces without pressure, where the best work often begins.

This episode is an invitation to loosen the grip, trust your instincts, and remember that sometimes the most profound insights come when you stop trying so hard.

Key Themes:

• The role of flow in writing, art, and everyday life
• Morning pages, self-censorship, and the myth of “doing it right”
• Letting go as both a creative and spiritual practice
• Designing environments that reduce friction and interrupt self-doubt
• The surprising power of throwaway work and the creative gold it reveals
• The uncomfortable but necessary dance between art and commerce
  
  

Creators and Guests

HG

Host

Hava Gurevich

What is I Love Your Stories- Conversations with Artists and Creatives with Hava Gurevich?

I Love Your Stories is a soulful conversation series hosted by artist and creative guide Hava Gurevich, where art meets authenticity. Each episode invites you into an intimate dialogue with artists, makers, and visionaries who are courageously crafting lives rooted in creativity, purpose, and self-expression.

From painters and poets to healers and community builders, these are the stories behind the work—the moments of doubt, discovery, grief, joy, and transformation. Through honest, heart-centred conversations, Hava explores how creativity can be both a healing force and a path to personal truth.

If you’re an artist, a dreamer, or someone drawn to a more intuitive and intentional way of living, this podcast will remind you that your story matters—and that the act of creating is a sacred, revolutionary act.

[MUSIC]

What is it about self-expression that

feels so right and so meaningful?

Welcome to this episode

of I Love Your Stories.

I'm your host, Ava Gurvic, and today I'm

thrilled to introduce my good friend,

Michael Gurvic, or as I

like to call him, my cousin,

Misha, even though

we're not actually related.

Misha is the creator of an innovative

writing tool called ILEES.

He left a successful dot com career to

embark on a journey of spiritual growth

and self-discovery.

Join us for an insightful conversation to

uncover the secrets of creative flow.

We'll explore the profound value of

finding a form of expression

unburdened by expectations, and discover

how the simple act of writing can unlock

creativity, extending far beyond your art

practice and into

every aspect of your life.

Welcome to the show, Misha.

Now, a quick word from our sponsor, and

then we'll get right back to the show.

When I started selling my art, I had

absolutely no idea

how to actually turn it

into a business, a professional business.

And then I came across art storefronts,

and that was a game changer.

I've been a customer now for years, and

they've been instrumental in every way,

every step of the way

of helping me succeed.

I have a gorgeous,

powerful commerce website.

I have marketing tools and a membership

to a community that is very supportive

and teaches me how to

succeed as an artist.

Check them out, artstorefronts.com, and

tell them how I sent you.

And isn't it hilarious?

I think it's really funny that we've

known each other for a

decade and a half, at least.

And this is the first time we're taught,

yeah, it's hilarious.

This is great. This is great.

So, OK.

In that sense.

Before you start, I should do this kind

of like intro thing, right?

Against? Yeah.

Can I call you Misha? Or is it Michael?

Call me whatever you like.

It's always good.

Is my very good friend, Misha, who I've

known for 15 years now.

We met when Facebook

was young and exciting.

And this is actually the very first time

we are having a

face-to-face conversation.

It's virtual, but still, it's the first

time we're actually talking

to each other in real time.

Welcome, Misha.

Thank you.

Can you tell me a little bit about

yourself and your

journey and about Ailis?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I also think it's extremely interesting

that we've known each

other for this time.

I think we've gone through some pretty

deep and meaningful moments

together in our conversation.

Much of it centered and focused on

creativity and flow and

this path of existence.

Yeah.

And it's like it seems

it's a theme in life.

There isn't really maybe one specific

moment when everything began.

I don't see the starting

point or the ending point.

It just seems to be this ongoing

evolution of questioning reality.

What is this?

What are we here for?

What is it about

expression that feels so right?

And why does it seem to be so meaningful?

And like inherently self-reinforcing.

Self-reinforcing, in a way.

Yeah, yeah.

It feels like it's built

into us to want to express.

And if we allow ourselves to, there's

like this internal reward

loop that starts to happen.

So when I knew you 15 years ago, you were

doing like computer

science type stuff, right?

Yeah.

So I used to live in California, in San

Francisco, living the

dot-com dream, having that life.

And it was great.

It was amazing.

It was a big adventure because before

that I was like living in

Albany, New York, dreaming

about going to places in the world and

seeing things and experiencing things.

And so it was a big, big

adventurous jump to go do that.

And it was wonderful

until my grandfather died.

And that started a

cycle of deeper questioning.

What am I doing with my life?

All of this questioning into reality,

let's call it

existential dread, brought me to a

place of realizing that I wanted to

meditate a lot and consistently.

And I had challenges doing that because

it was the new behavior

and the new routine and

I couldn't do it the way

I imagined I wanted to.

So I found this place in Iowa, Amaraishi

University of Management,

which is all about meditation.

And they do it in the

style of a university.

So it's basically an ashram that looks

like a university and

you go sign up for classes

and you meditate regularly

and it's part of the curriculum.

So if you want to

pass, you got to do that.

And on top of that, take some classes.

So I thought, all right, I'm going to

just leave the world,

go into the middle of the

cornfields and meditate and

I'm going to have some fun.

And so the classes I took

were just about having fun.

And so that looked like creating art, it

looked like making

videos, it looked like having

a good time.

And yeah, so it was in this university

during this phase of exploring

consciousness, which

of course is still ongoing

because we're still here.

There was a creative writing class taught

by Professor Ninky and

we learned about morning

pages.

Ninky Posse, I hope

I'm saying that right.

She's a wonderful

creative writing teacher.

We learned about Julia Cameron's The

Artist's Way and morning pages.

And we began doing that intentionally as

part of the course and I

felt how really incredible

and liberating it was to just dump

everything onto the page.

Yeah.

And to do it as part of a practice.

And I think I might have had some

experiences before like

that maybe, but I think it was

then and there that I really had the

realization, oh, wait a second.

This is actually something powerful.

Well, it was during this learning and

practicing with morning

pages that I began to wonder

and notice that the whole point of

morning pages is to create

freedom to express maximally.

And I noticed that I wasn't doing that

because I was paying

attention to things like penmanship

and like the lines and the page.

There were a whole bunch of places where

my thoughts, awareness

and energy were going

that had nothing to do with the creative

aspect of what we're trying to do.

So it was then that I began

to notice, oh, wait a second.

We're trying to be in this experience of

expression, but I keep

shifting back and forth

to jumping into my critical meta part.

I'm not in the moment, I'm thinking about

the moment and that level of thought.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that happens in art all the time.

My inspiration to sort of be very

attentive to that was a

different book by Peter London

called No More and Art.

And he advocates very strongly to really

separate the creative

process from like the analytical

process.

So you have to kind of get into a flow

and just not show it to

anyone, not judge yourself,

just do without thinking, like really

just thinking and then

come back to it and see

what's there and what's worth keeping.

Seeing a similar process in creative

writing was interesting.

So did you design it?

So wait, so okay, let's take a step back.

Can you just explain to our audience?

I'm assuming there's

going to be an audience.

So it's so interesting.

We have no idea where all of this will

travel after it's

packaged and released into the

ether.

They will find its people for sure.

So can you explain to

these people what Ili's is?

Well, yeah, it's what you just described,

creating the

separation between being in the

experience and not being in it, thinking

about it, having all

these critical thoughts.

It's a way of writing where it's not that

it forces you to

write and just keep going,

but it kind of does if that's what you

want and you allow

yourself to go with it.

And what this looks like practically is

that when you create a

session, you don't see what

you're writing, right?

And you just see one letter

at a time pop on the screen.

Yeah, and you could turn that off also.

You can turn that so you

can just have a black screen.

Yeah, you get feedback that you're

writing something, so you

have some engagement with

that, right?

And yes, I did design and I'm very

fulfilled in doing that.

But the principles are exactly the same

with what you just described.

Let's do everything we possibly can to

create an environment

where the person who wants

to have an in the moment writing

experience will have exactly that.

Anything that is distracting from that or

can interfere with that is gone.

And anything we can do to help them not

act on their

self-doubt is everything we want

to do.

That's practical.

So what that looks like is in writing,

when we have self-doubt,

we press the delete key.

And we might not even realize what's

going on because it's so

habitual and happens so

quickly that we might not

even register as self-doubt.

But that is the outcome of

self-doubt in that context.

So try to use some

negative reinforcement.

And what that looks like is when you

press delete, you get buzzed.

You're like, nah, don't.

Don't do that.

Right?

So it's turned right.

Yeah.

And the screen flashes.

I mean, I've thought about creating a USB

attachment that wraps

around your wrist, that

gives you an electrical shock.

But maybe going a little too before.

I mean, I knew that it stamped out of

some creative writing

because I've always thought

of it as a tool for writers and that I

was kind of like hacking

it by using it for morning

pages.

And it turns out that that's why that was

the design all along.

That's where I came from.

Yeah.

Because I wanted to like, I got the idea.

We want to create maximum just flow and

anything that gets in the way of that.

So that raised the

question, OK, what can we do?

All right.

Well, don't see what you're writing.

That's the first thing.

It's been such an amazing tool.

Thank you very much.

I've used it a couple of different ways.

So I've used it for morning pages and

just sort of stream of

consciousness writing that

I know I'm not going to even read.

And then I started using it like whenever

I had something that

was like I wanted to just

think it, think it through, you know.

And so there's there's a difference

between just sitting there

with a cup of coffee, looking

out the window and

trying to think it through.

And when just writing it, even if I'm not

going to read it, it's

like it's like saying

it out loud to yourself.

And the answers come.

The answers just come.

And sometimes it's just like I'm writing,

I'm explaining it one

way and then I tried

it again and like, OK,

this is maybe what I mean.

OK, maybe this and then something's like,

oh, that's what I meant.

But then I started also using it like

whenever I needed to write something.

So I find I can I can think and

articulate ideas when I'm talking.

But if I sit down trying

to write it, it's like.

It doesn't come.

Yeah, it doesn't.

It just doesn't flow.

But allowed it allows it to kind of you

know, I just know that I'm

just going to keep writing

until it until it comes out.

And then I'll look at it and they'll be

like, you know, two

pages worth of text and I'll

be able to find that like one or two

sentences in there that

actually, you know, like do

a jam in the rough kind of thing.

That's how it started.

But then to continue to evolve into much

deeper meaning than I

could have imagined when it

was created, which you just you just

described that that whole

evolution so beautifully.

And I rephrase it in what I saw from this

side, which is exactly

what you saw from your

side.

So first was just beginning to type and

not worried about

spelling and things like that

and just getting used to it, getting used

to the delete and and reaching a point of

I don't care.

Right.

That was that.

That's like that's that's this first

level of I don't care.

I'm just going to whatever.

And that's great.

But then once we reach that point.

That I don't care allows

the flow to start happening.

Yes.

And when that flow starts happening, a

lot of junk is it comes

out just junk, junk, junk,

junk, junk.

But inside that junk,

they're going to be gold nuggets.

Yeah.

And I completely agree and appreciate the

word you use, which is allow.

We allow this to come up and the words

you also use completely

agree and appreciate the

answers come.

It's not that we're

designing the answers.

They're coming through us because we

stopped caring enough to

allow whatever that is inside

of us that wants to express to express.

And in the middle of all the mud that

comes out, they're gold nuggets.

There are answers.

There's like really amazing things that

happen that, you know,

maybe we might not have arrived

at if we were just trying to

use our own mental faculties.

You know, like the

proverbial get out of your own way.

Yeah.

In a way.

But it's almost like a subversive way to

do that because you

think you're in control.

You're typing.

So that's that's the nice part, isn't it?

Because it gives your

body something to do.

Yes.

Yeah.

So you're like the body's engaged with

whatever the action is.

And you know, right.

So the term and I think the first time I

heard it was coming from you.

But then I kind of got used to like

incorporating it myself flow flow.

I didn't make it out.

No, I just heard it somewhere too.

Of course.

Of course.

But I heard it for

the first time from you.

Yes.

And thank you.

And I just kind of remember you.

You said that.

And in my mind, like the closest analogy

I had is like the zone.

And I think I've heard the zone being in

the zone used as a way

to describe like when,

you know, I'm making art and I'm sort of

get out of my own way

and things come out.

But zone feels so local.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coals, right?

Yeah.

Whereas flow seems to really describe

this process so much

better because it's not it's

whether you're talking about it flowing

through me something that

I'm I'm standing still and

it's flowing through me.

This creativity inspiration, you know,

consciousness flowing through me or I am

letting life letting

everything like take me on the journey

without the resistance.

So I am flowing with.

Yeah.

And I also wonder we've been describing

it as two things, but

I almost wonder if it's

the same thing.

And yeah, it's the same thing, you know.

I wonder if when we have some practices,

whether it be writing or

this or that, whatever the

practice is to allow ourselves to flow.

If through that we become better at

navigating life in general.

So, you know, yeah, I mean.

But you know, so sometimes it's just a

creative problem or like,

you know, like just trying

to get through a creative block or it's

not necessarily a block.

Sometimes it's just, you know, there's

all these different

ideas and you can't do all

of them and and like helps you kind of

focus in a different way, perhaps.

But there's other times when this flow is

or this practice is

about issues that have

nothing to do with art making.

So, you know, like I started using

morning pages and I

stopped calling them that I just

writing and I would I would use it

sometimes to sort of like

work out in my head, like

something that's happening in my life.

Like, you know, wake up like, why am I so

angry this morning at that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why my dad.

Because it's making that connection

between that when there

is flow, whether it comes

out in thoughts, in words, in writing or

through my hand while

I'm painting, it's the same

thing that comes through.

And sometimes it needs a

different way to come through.

Yes.

And so it's just like expanding your

toolbox of what you can use.

So this is this is really interesting and

getting into flow and

having a practice like

I just started

meditating or trying to meditate.

I just started trying to meditate.

You can't do it wrong.

So you know there I think that's the

important thing, right,

that you just sit there that

you don't give up.

Yeah.

So it's the same.

It's the same thing, right?

Like if we're meditating,

then we're in the experience.

And as soon as we start

thinking about am I doing this right?

Am I right?

That's that.

It is.

It's the same thing.

So writing, painting,

whatever that flow is, is meditation.

So I always talk about when I'm painting

and I'm really like in the flow of it.

You're in the transcendent.

That's.

Placetime gone.

Yeah.

And I've had some really transcending

like out of buying in

that state not often.

But when they happen, they stay with me.

It's real.

And you know, and time stops.

It's like, oh, it's been eight hours.

Like, oh my God, it's black.

I'm warning.

I'm still painting.

And when I paint, I

have two distinct states.

Well there's several distinct states, but

there's two states

that are optimal as far

as I'm concerned.

And to me, they feel like

one of them is easier to reach.

And that is like I'm doing something that

like the actual act

of painting, like, you

know, I'm tracing lines or doing stuff,

you know, like that is it

requires a lot of concentration.

But I don't have to

think about what I'm doing.

And so I'm doing that

and my mind wanders.

But it doesn't like wander

to like what's for dinner.

And if the trash was taken out, it

wanders into all kinds

of fascinating places.

Sometimes I have, you know, like these

sometimes they're just

like, like micro epiphanies,

like little tiny epiphanies about the

painting I'm working on.

Like some, some little connection and

it's there and it's gone.

It's like, oh, yeah.

But the other one is where, and it's only

happened a few times in

my life, where whatever

is happening on the canvas, whatever I'm

working on, it's like it

gets, the only thing, the

only way I can explain it is like the way

things dissolve and

turn into something else

if they're in a dream.

It just, it just morphs into

something and it just morphs.

You know, I'm thinking about, I'm

thinking about some

lines, I'm thinking about some

colors next to each other, maybe some

contrast, maybe some, you

know, some, some, some ideas.

And then suddenly I'm still thinking

about that, but I'm

thinking about the entire like

existence of the universe and like where,

you know, it's just,

I'm suddenly like out

of place, out of time,

but I'm still right there.

And it's like, I can talk about that

experience by talking about

applying some red paint to

a line.

And it doesn't, like, it doesn't make, I

can't, I can't put it

into words beyond that, but

man I, you know, like

sometimes I, you can't ask for that.

Like you can't like sit down and say

like, this is what it's,

this is what's going to

happen.

And sometimes it happens in like the,

it's like, really now?

That's why we do it, I guess.

Right.

Well, isn't it interesting that this is a

thing that can happen

and that like, if we

allow ourselves to go with wherever that

expression is going, like

it can deliver us into these

moments.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it isn't like, what is that saying

about expression itself

as a process in life that,

you know, if we allow ourselves to go on

that ride, this can happen.

Right.

And it might sound weird because it's

like, well, what's this?

Well, we can't really describe it.

We're not the first ones

to bump into this problem.

Right.

I mean, it's ancient.

It's like,

The other, the other thing about writing

and this kind of

automatic writing that Aylies

allows you to do is that it helps with

blocks, like creative block.

And that part, like I don't really

understand why, but I know

that it does just maybe because

it's a different medium.

And so I don't have, I don't put the same

expectations or judgment on it.

Yeah.

Or like, it's a lot

easier to not care about.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because, because, right.

Especially, like I imagine for you,

you're, you're an incredible,

expressionist with paints and canvases.

And I imagine like that can create a lot

of expectations and maybe pressures.

And it needs to be incredible, amazing

all the time because it usually is.

Right.

Like it can't go

through like the ugly face.

Well, yeah.

Right.

But that's, that's part of the becoming.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so, like,

I imagine for you, if things get too,

let's say, tight in

that, in that painting realm,

shifting for a little bit into something

like islets just to get the gears going,

just to get the process, just to get the

flow happening, like,

inconsequential.

Who cares?

I don't care what the, I

don't care about anything.

I'm just going to.

Right.

And it might seem like, like something

important and something

tangible while this is writing.

But it's the same thing.

We're just getting that creative

expression happening.

And it seems like once that flow begins

to happen in some channel, even if it's

not writing, you know, dancing, whatever,

whatever it is, once it

starts happening in some channel,

the others seem to

start coming along too.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

You know, there was a big time, there was

a time in my life where I had such a big

separation between, you know, all the

senses and all the activities.

And so art making was its own thing.

And it was unrelated to anything else

that I would be doing.

So it wasn't related to

taking a walk in the park.

It wasn't related to sitting down and

writing a thousand words without looking

at what I'm writing or, you know, making

a meal or any of those things.

There were like distinct appearances.

Compartments.

And, you know, I think that's why when

you were telling me about Ailles and

about writing and how it can like

unblock, unblock, on

Drano and mental Drano.

Yeah, that's what it is.

Let things flow.

You know, I did not

realize then, I do now.

I mean, I'm in a place in my life where I

know everything is connected and I can

see those connections much easier.

And I could see them in other things.

Like, you know, I always talk about like

I search for patterns in nature.

You know, there's a pattern for like

birth, metamorphosis, decay, you know,

and rebirth and, you

know, all this kind of stuff.

And they exist in different

abstract and physical forms.

But making the connection

that my senses are all connected.

And that if I'm blocked in one kind of

creative expression, turning into another

one that doesn't come with the baggage

of, you know, like expectations and say,

"I'm a terrible

writer. I don't care for..."

It's like I'm not

trying to be a good writer.

And so I'm not, you know, like, I don't

care if it comes out shitty because

that's, you know, and I, you know, I

guess the more you practice like

meditation and just any kind of

spirituality and you become aware that

it's all connected, you

know, it's like, of course it is.

Wow.

It's like getting that moving can create

the space for new enthusiasm and

inspiration to show up.

That's true, too.

I notice, you know, talking about themes

in life, this ongoing theme seems to be

very centered around practicing letting

go and acceptance. Acceptance. Yeah.

Not, not, not caring. There's actually a

whole lot of caring, but

also acceptance with what is.

And how so many things in life seem to be

aligned and moving in the same way and

training me to hopefully

become better and better at it.

So with meditation, with writing, with I

love, I love kiteboarding. Also, the main

lesson I think in kiteboarding is if

there's ever a problem,
let go.

Because the natural instinct, I think, is

for us to try to grip and tie it and

muscle it and no, that's extremely

dangerous. And the kite is a wonderful

teacher to help retrain that.

That's pretty great. I

never thought of that way.

Yeah. So I'm not particularly light as

far as humans go. But when I'm in the

water with a kite, if I do the wrong

thing because I've called when I should

have let go, it throws me like a little

rag doll, which it's a very humbling

whole body experience that

really brings the point home. Let go.

Problem, you know, that doesn't mean

don't try to take care of the problem or,

you know, try to make things better, but

definitely don't make

it worse to start with.

It's really like I don't I sometimes

write for outcome. But rarely. I mostly

do it for process to just allow the flow

to happen to jog the expression.

And to also regulate myself in, you know,

external reality out here. You know,

sometimes things get a little tense and

sometimes things get complicated and

sometimes life happens.

And it's really nice to have developed

and to continue developing the self

reflection muscle to hopefully notice in

the moment when things can get worse and

to try to pull out from my tool bag,

whatever might be useful at the moment to

not make it worse, you know, hopefully

make it better by becoming less of a

factor in the flare up. Whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, you asked me

about flow. And I'm very grateful to it.

Because although I experienced it in so

many avenues of my life, it's really been

super helpful just for living.

Yeah, because it's all connected.

It is all connected. And it's so

interesting that you're talking about

noticing networks and, you know, it

almost as you describing it, I'm hearing

an inquiry of perceiving the world at the

node level and then going deeper and

starting to notice its interconnectedness

and then further

deeper and further deeper.

And it sounds like a very deep,

thoughtful and meaningful inquiry into

the nature of existence.

So that's the journey I'm on right now.

You know, part of it is where

does my art practice fit in?

You know, I can say where it fits in at

least some of the time for my own

personal, like in the same way that doing

the writing, the kind of automatic

writing or morning pages

or whatever, like that.

It's a way to kind of like let things

flow and let ideas come. And, you know,

with the painting, sometimes that can

happen or something else can happen.

But there are times when I can tell that

my painting, my art practice is how I

process reality. And that's really

important to me. But I'm

also a business owner now.

Yes, yes, yes.

And, you know, and for a very long time,

I resisted the idea that I'm creating

commodities. I've never been resistant to

like, well, I certainly would love to

sell them and make money.

The resistance isn't that. The resistance

was in the initial intent. And now that I

am actively marketing my art and living

as a professional artist, it gets

enmeshed and not

always in a comfortable way.

Yeah.

Because, you know, and sometimes it's

like this thing of like, I am. I feel

like I want to create something, but I

don't want to have any. I don't want to

write a novel. I just want to have like a

little like, I just want

to make a colorful flower.

Simple. I just want to see the colors on

the page. I just want to see, you know,

the aqua next to the fuchsia and the way

they light each other up. And then you

put a little yellow in between like, oh,

it's just like that.

You know, it's just like you have to love

to push paint around. Like if you want to

be a painter, you really need to process

pushing paint around. And

sometimes that's all it is.

And sometimes you get into it and then

you get out of your own way and, you

know, things calm down. So, you know,

sometimes it's a little bit of therapy.

Sometimes it's this. But

then sometimes it just gets.

But is this something that someone will

want to buy? Like, is this too? It just

gets it just gets really, really tangled.

And I don't want to lose either side.

Like I don't want. I don't want to let

go. Like, I don't want to become a

commercial artist, you know, like I don't

want to make art just to sell it.

But I want to make art sellable.

Sure.

But I have to.

It's nice to pay bills.

Yes.

I think we in our conversation touched on

some really important fundamental things

worth thinking about, especially for

people interested in expression.

And flow.

Well, yeah. And also to come back to what

you were saying, you know, you have this

dichotomy of running the professional

side of things and also just wanting to

draw a flower and

move some colors around.

Right. So like you just want to express

to have that feeling of expression. But

then there's also like the outcome side

of things. You want some specific

outcomes in the real world.

Because of the process. And so I almost

wonder if the

modalities are interchangeable.

I guess, you know, it's it's it's good to

try and think of like what what is a

similar kind of exercise that I can do.

That's that's visual drawing.

That's like kind of a throwaway.

Well, it sounds like you've really said

the golden words there.

What's that?

Throwaway. You don't care.

Exactly.

You create time and

space to just whatever.

Yeah.

And there's no there's no wrong way to do

it. There's no it's

meditation. You're just whatever.

I wonder if it's what Julia Cameron like

refers to when she talks about artists

dates like just doing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But the funny thing in my case is that

most of the time some of the best things

like if you trace them back, they start

as something that was

going to be a throwaway.

Was like, you know, that didn't have that

that conscious

intention to be something great.

Yeah.

It was just that, I don't know, instinct

or just a gut feeling or just something

that you didn't that didn't come from

your ego, I guess, like just came from

someplace else because it didn't you

didn't wrap it and

expectations and judgment.

And like this isn't going to be one of

the things I'm going to hold up. Like,

look how great I am.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It is not a super useful thing to

recognize that pattern that from these

possible throwaway moments come all all

of these other wonderful things.

And like we can look on that not not as a

theory, but like as memories in what has

been so far in life, these wonderful

things that happened started as, you

know, throw away things

just something for fun.

And so, like, because that's already in

history, like it might make business

sense to even say, well, you know, this

is where good things can come from.

Wouldn't it be a good investment to

create a space and time to have more of

these throwaway enjoyable moments that

can then move on through, you know, we

find it iteration to become products and

services and things like that.

That's like I heard this expression

somewhere else, but it's like writing

yourself a permission slip to go like,

yeah, Bashar Bashar is awesome to go and

just be silly or just just

do something just for fun.

Well, just don't like don't think of it

as something grand. You're not you're not

out there saving the world right now.

You're just yeah, just going to go kick

some sand around and see what happens and

it seems some paint.

Yeah.

No, Bashar.

So, I mean, isn't it fascinating. I think

it completely is that.

Okay, art is wonderful, you know, we can

make products all this is great, but

there's also like this underlying process

that we can go through that

is just entirely profound.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow, we've been

talking for over two hours now.

That's a lot of editing.

It is a lot of editing, and also a

wonderful conversation.

Yeah, but it needs to be edited down to

something somebody else is

going to sit and listen to.

Well, it's really great. We should do

this again like not necessary.

It's great to talk when you do the first.

Yeah, it's, I mean

it's, it had to happen.

Yeah.

1516 years later. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'm gonna go have some chocolate

cake or some wonderful. Yeah.

All right.

Nice to see you. Thank

you for a fun conversation.

And thank you for

being my cousin on the jet.