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This podcast is about workplace innovation through technology, with a special focus on Claris FileMaker and the Claris Community.
Well, welcome back to another episode of The Context Podcast. I'm Ernest Coe, and I have Todd Geiss and Eric Luce. I'm gonna talk about a few things today. I think on deck are, there's been some interesting things happening, in the AI world and in the Clarus FileMaker world. I think Ryan and...
Speaker 1:Ryan McCann, Clarius CEO, posted a blog post recently signaling where they are going with AI and FileMaker. We should spend some time on that. And, also, I think that we've been hearing quite a bit of stuff around this, like, anti AI vibe that's happening. People getting booed about AI, layoffs by, you know, nasty masters... Messages from CEOs and the light, and maybe we can spend some time on that.
Speaker 1:But... And last but not least, there's a lot of exciting things around ProofKit that we wanna share. And maybe there are other things that come up, but I think those are the three.
Speaker 2:Ties into Ryan's Ryan's post too as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you want me to
Speaker 2:share this... The post up here, and we can talk about Ryan's
Speaker 1:first. With that. Let's start with Ryan's post because I think that is a inflection point in our community, and we should talk about it. Let's see. So this came out when, May 5.
Speaker 1:Out,
Speaker 2:May 5. Here we got... Here's a picture of it here. Yep. How Claris is building for for what's next.
Speaker 2:So there was this blog post, and then a few days later, he did a video interview on Richard Carlton's livestream, which was quite interesting. Gave a little more details behind the behind the story here. But... Yeah. So basically, you know, the statement from from them is writing code used to be the hard part.
Speaker 2:It isn't anymore. And in terms of a Clarus ecosystem, you know, one of the things that Clarus always had was it was this rapid development environment, and we were able to write working solutions very quickly without having to, you know, learn complex program... Programming languages and things like that. So for many years, especially in the early days, FileMaker's bread and butter was the fact that it was the easiest way to build really good complex business systems. Right?
Speaker 2:It was it was easy. And and the big change is that's not... That's easy for everybody now, is basically to write the code. The implementation, the the code on the page or the code in the in the binary is not... No longer the hard part to do.
Speaker 2:And that's a pretty big shift, and it seems like Ryan and Claris has recognized that, and they're taking some steps to to to respond. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I obviously think that this is absolutely the right thing to do. I think... You know, what what did Ryan say? Let's let's crystallize it. So what's happening in FileMaker is that FileMaker is the foundation, and they are going to be bringing...
Speaker 1:Making FileMaker a first class development target for agent decoding tools starting with, interface and then moving on to scripts and schema and other things that that we can modify. We should talk about this idea. What what does that mean? What is a first class development target inside an agent decoding platform? Because I I think this is not the same thing as bringing AI into FileMaker specific Right.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. And that was kind of what people wanted to do at first was to have a little coding editor next to them in ScriptMaker. Right. And we we felt that wasn't the right response pretty early on because we were already using tools like like Cursor and Clod.
Speaker 2:And I think that crystallized over the last few months that you really just need agents to have access. And yes, it might be nice if you have an agent that's finely tuned for your particular environment, but the first thing you need to do is give your development environment, your deployment target, the ability to be coded and to be edited with by agents. Right?
Speaker 1:Right. Right.
Speaker 3:I mean... I think you guys have talked about this in the past. Right? Where like the the point is the agent has to have the access to the full loop. That was the first, like, turning point for me when I first started doing anything with AI coding is...
Speaker 3:Was in cursor because cursor could or the whole agent could see the errors that the code was producing and immediately fix itself. And there was no more going back and forth between I have to copy this error from my browser and paste it back into ChatGPT. That happened automatically. And the result is a working code at the first time you tell it tell it to build something.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Usually.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to note that we're using the word agentic and agent here very intentionally and deliberately. Right? Because it's not... I mean, the the one way to think about this... I I mean, I think there's a way you can think about this where, you know, the AI is just a model that you are chatting against.
Speaker 1:And then if the if the model can do something, then then that's it. You know, that you've got you've got AI, and you can deploy it anywhere. But the reason coding agents are coding agents is not because it's a dumb interface talking to a smart model. Right? It's...
Speaker 1:The smart model must exist. That's true. Frontier models, you know, Opus 4.7, you know, GPT 5.5 or whatever, Composer 2.5. All those things are important. But the agentic loop, the harness that allows that experience, that looping thing that you're alluding to, Eric, and its its its ability to correct and reason, that is what really makes the coding agent an agent.
Speaker 1:Right? So it's not sufficient to just jam an LLM in the model into some some UI and say, hey. Now now if you've got chat and you can you can build, you can write code too agentically. That... That's a different...
Speaker 1:That's a substantially, less good experience than what you... What what you'd be getting from Claude and all the other things that we're seeing today with coding agents.
Speaker 2:Right. And I I think that that's... That is the key, like, closing the loop, giving the agent the ability to see what it... To see the output of what it's doing and verify itself. Once you do that Right.
Speaker 2:Then that's actually kinda what happened in December 2025
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Is that the... Those dots were all connected, and people realized that you could basically just loop as long as you provided the proper feedback to the agent, it would figure out the right thing to do. Right? And... Before that, you were having to guide it and watch every step and correct along the way, and now they've become self correcting.
Speaker 2:And so that's really key. So what we're talking about here is that in in the post, you're talking about building for FileMaker with the AI tools you choose. And I think that's really important because people have favorite agents. I tend to use, Cursor and Claude quite a bit. I think Eric uses Codex quite a bit.
Speaker 3:I do.
Speaker 2:I don't know. What's your favorite daily driver these days, Ernest?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm I'm in Claudeland. I mean, I I I... I'm I'm I'm I'm having a lot of fatigue of switching around, suffering from, like, you know, to try this Asian and this model and that. And so I feel like I've gone backwards in many ways, and I've refactored my environment so many times that I... I'm now resolved to just sticking with with Claude and Claude code and mostly Opus, 4.7 for most of what I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know? But I but I think it's different. Right? I mean, the the range of stuff that I do on a on a daily basis, tends to be... Tends to span from operational things all the way to to coding things.
Speaker 1:So that probably works well for me. I can imagine that most of our engineers and developers may just wanna live in cursor or in codex, you know, as a as the happy place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What I tend to do is write... You know, I I tend to use Claude as more like the old chat style doing research. Mhmm. And then I use co work as kind of like an agent framework to get automations done, and I use code also. But I think primarily when I'm coding, when I'm really deep in coding, I'm using Cursor.
Speaker 2:And one of the reasons is I really like Composer 2.5.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very, very fast. In fact, there's a video, we'll point this out later, where I show Cursor building a FileMaker web viewer app in about ten minutes. It's just one shot, one prompt all the way through. I think it's one prompt, maybe two, and it does the whole thing in ten minutes. It's really, really, really fast.
Speaker 2:Much faster than Opus, which is... Tends to be... Tends to think a lot.
Speaker 1:Right. Tends to think a lot.
Speaker 3:I thought it was even faster than that, but, yeah, like, ninety seconds initially.
Speaker 2:It's really fast. Like, it gets to, like... It got the project set up in, like, under two minutes. Like, it just blew through it really, really fast. So we'll we'll we'll we'll have a link in the show notes about that video, and you can go watch it.
Speaker 2:But so anyway, I like to do a couple different things there. But anyway, the main point is, I hope that's obvious from the three of us using really have three different favorites is that you really... If you're gonna say to somebody, hey, agentic coding, but you gotta use our agent, people are gonna go, I like my agent. That's what they're gonna do, they're gonna do it, you're gonna have favorites. And so I think that was one of the big breakthroughs that happened in the last four to six months, and I think probably Aclaris too, is I think they realized that they didn't have to build an AI agent into FileMaker, which would have been a much, much, much more difficult job.
Speaker 2:And they could just use the coding agents that everybody else was doing and and just hook into them, which I think is the right the right move.
Speaker 3:And it lets people choose, but it also lets them update when they... If they wanna switch models, you can. You have total freedom there
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:For whatever you need to do. And... Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's not just about switching models. Right? It's about choosing agents. I mean, I'm I'm sure you use you use Opus in cursor.
Speaker 1:And I do. I I use other agents actually in Cloud Code too. Occasionally, when
Speaker 3:when Models, agents, and
Speaker 1:all these agents,
Speaker 3:we have all Right. You gotta choose.
Speaker 1:I know we're geeking out on on agents and models here, but I think I think the important point here with with and what's happening is that, this this is a break. I think there was... You know, FileMaker was always about trade offs, and any any development environment was all... Always about trade offs. Right?
Speaker 1:We make trade offs to get more power, more speed, more access, all all kinds of stuff that that... And FileMaker just happened to be a really good sweet spot where you could, get enough capability and power, but also the the to to... What I'm trying to say, to to get people who are nontechnical programmers, problem solving platform that they can they can, you know, bring solutions to the to the business more quickly. And that gap has certainly closed dramatically in the last few months. Right?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's it's clear that, problem solving in any, with a coding agent is now accessible to most people.
Speaker 2:That's right. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the core value proposition of FileMaker needed to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Needed to change. So I don't... There's a...
Speaker 2:There's other things here and and what's coming in the in the future and what's next, all all important. Talking about the interfaces, which is obviously is what ProofKit is all about, also scripts and schema, so they so they get where the problems lie. We're gonna talk about ProofKit a little bit later, but maybe we should just say now what we think of this announcement in relation to ProofKit and sort of what we... How we see those those two things combining. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I I think this sets up ProofKit quite well. I mean, I think I think this vision of what FileMaker is is exactly the vision we hope FileMaker and Claris, adopts because this is exactly what ProofKit is counting on. Right? ProofKit. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But but maybe it's worth talking about how this is different or the same as ProofKit.
Speaker 2:You know, that that Yeah. Like, I think it might just on... Might just help the... There... There's a lot of technical details that actually don't matter and implementation details are are what they are.
Speaker 2:But we had to build... We had to do a bunch of things because we can't, you know, write code directly into the FileMaker Pro, so we had to do a bunch of things to kinda make this work to to where we can build web interfaces. And what we're hoping and what it looks like based on what we're... What we know is that a lot of those things we won't have to do anymore. Clarus will have it baked into the product, and so then whatever things that we're doing that are different or more advanced or more, you know, maybe differentiated based on other things we have like our automatic platform, for example, we can just use those things that they've baked into the product itself.
Speaker 2:We did this very similar thing with AutoFMS. The first version of AutoFMS which was called Auto, there was no admin API on the FileMaker server, so we had to create our own admin API, that was one of the one of the key things that auto version one, two and three provide or one and two provided was an admin API that you could use, but the minute Clarus shipped an admin API for FileMaker server, we just dropped it and moved to that. And so I expect that ProofKit will just do the same thing. We will just use whatever hooks and capabilities that that Clarus makes available for us to continue to do ProofKitty like things. That's a worry.
Speaker 2:But we have some ideas. There's lots of ways we can take this further, but it'll be nice that we can offload that part of the engineering where it's like things that really belong baked into the product itself. We don't have to deal with that anymore. We can only deal with the the stuff that is, you know, maybe more opinionated. An example might be that we could do integration with our automatic hosting platform that wouldn't make sense to be in the Clarus part of the the thing.
Speaker 1:Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But now because we don't have to do that part, we can spend more time on other types of integrations and and things that make more sense for us and our customers.
Speaker 1:But, also, there there is this layer... This open source layer of ProofKit that that sort of is sort of the collection of opinions and ideas and and Yeah. Stack and libraries that we've accumulated over the years that allow us us... Allow us to work this way. And Clarus doesn't...
Speaker 1:Could have their own set of opinions that ship that we either adopt or don't adopt. Right? And that's kind of the beauty of this whole paradigm. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 1:So ProofKit could exist in a happy, coexist happily, with with whatever Clarus does to support the ProofKit's of the world and different ways of agentically developing in in FileMaker.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's very exciting. We're thrilled that they're doing this, and we're excited to see what they do. So, yeah, anything more to say on that? I think that might be that might be enough on that topic.
Speaker 2:Anything more? No.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think I think it's I think it's it's really aligned with what we're doing at Proof, and I think, maybe just a thought here. I think this really matters for businesses and people who have invested in FileMaker. Right? And I think your view point. This is not really...
Speaker 1:I mean, I I think the story tends to be very techy and and focus on on the technology and developers. But what's really exciting for me is that it it really allows the investments that people have made in FileMaker to have a whole new life beyond its current, way of doing things. We're joining basically the AI economy in a very real way. I mean, this is like FileMaker will be able to take advantage of all the AI coding powers that that developers can bring to bear, and you'll have access to to more capability, more skills. Anything in the whole open marketplace now is now available to to to FileMaker.
Speaker 1:You know? So as a business, if you're looking at this and say, how does this matter to me? You know? So what? If...
Speaker 1:Well, just think about this. I mean, if FileMaker was stuck in the old way of doing things, artisanal programming, where you have to hand code and handwrite every single thing and your layouts are stuck in in the old style, you know, FileMaker layouts, and it's not responsive. It doesn't work across, you know, across devices and browsers and all all that stuff, you might be very tempted to say, yeah, we can't stay here very much longer because, you know, we've got a different way of doing business and we gotta go and and bring AI into the company. And and now you don't have to do that. Right?
Speaker 1:And not only that, all the things that you thought you, had to compromise, with FileMaker before for speed but, you know, not get the fancy layouts. Those things are all gone away.
Speaker 2:That's right. Right. Yeah. The the... So I I...
Speaker 2:That's a good point. I wanna just piggyback off that one last thing there. I mean, just to be very, very clear, we're so happy that Clarus is doing this because... I mean, we think ProofKit's pretty great. And it's gonna be great for our customers and for the services teams that we support to build great apps in FileMaker.
Speaker 2:But it's gonna be... It'll be very difficult for us, though we're a platinum partner, to ship that value to the entire ecosystem because it's a big ecosystem. It's huge. Right. Believe it or not, there are companies out there that have never heard of us.
Speaker 2:That's true. Which is which is both exciting and kind of a shame, but I love that that people can still discover us and get excited about what we do, but still I wish everybody in the FileMaker ecosystem knew who we were. But so by Clarus backing this, this actually means the whole ecosystem goes along for the ride, and that's really important, ultimately for us, our long term business, and for everybody, for our customers who are both people who use FileMaker to run their business, but also developers who also service customers. So it's really important that Clarus do this. Much more important that Clarus do it than we do it.
Speaker 2:I just wanna be very clear
Speaker 1:about that. One more thing on that note, Todd and and Eric. I think I often get this question, which is, well, if I... If if if we can vibe code and do write stuff agentically now, why Clarus and FileMaker at all? If it's that easy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was just about to bring up same thing. I think Yeah. There is also a point in his blog post where he talks about the security of the FileMaker platform. And that's something that you you might not think about as being a as being like a a factor.
Speaker 3:Like, it just might be a secondary thought maybe because we're all used to it as how FileMaker works. But outside of the FileMaker ecosystem, if you're not aware, the security of software especially web software has kinda gone crazy and things are no longer as secure as we thought they were. Even something as simple as our basic security, how we handle security practices and disclosures just is like not working the same way. And so there's a ton of vulnerabilities that are coming out because of these AI models and they're maybe not even being disclosed properly. There are supply chain attacks that are trying to get at credentials on developer systems and just like little worms that spread everywhere.
Speaker 3:It's it's gone crazy. But within FileMaker, none of that none of that really gets impacted because it's in Sub supply...
Speaker 2:You still have to watch about supply. Supply chains are one way. Yeah.
Speaker 3:When you're building... Yeah. When you're building web apps for FileMaker. Yes. But the apps themselves are not able to be compromised in the same way that a web app deployed on a web host would be because it's just fundamentally different the way that code is served to the users.
Speaker 3:It's behind the FileMaker sandbox.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Very good
Speaker 1:point. Yeah. Absolutely. I I also think that we've gotten a little bit complacent or... Well, we've taken for granted, I think, a lot of the things that FileMaker gives us out of the box for free.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it actually comes up when when you when you when you develop and build in in other environments, and you have to maintain and and and support apps that are built in other stacks. And there's a reason the word stack exists. It's not one thing. It's like a multilayered, you know, cake of technologies and libraries and frameworks that have to come together in some aligned way, and then you have to support all of it.
Speaker 1:Right? And that stack is complex. And if there's one thing that I'm seeing here that I think will continue to bear out is that complexity is increasing and not decreasing. And so if you're a business thinking about how you manage the software that you are using, that complexity is a killer. And the beautiful thing about FileMaker still is that a lot of the complexity gets collapsed into just the platform itself.
Speaker 1:You know, security is there. Back end is there. Servers figured out for you. Authentication, you've got that solved. You can deploy across, devices and boundaries, and all of that is not new stuff that you have to maintain, write, build, or whatever yourself.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's pretty important. Do we want to take a slight detour into general AI stuff here before we return to more ProofKit stuff?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the the thing we wanted to talk about was that was a pretty hard transition. We... We're not... We we are not actually, obviously, practice podcast.
Speaker 2:That's not
Speaker 1:a day job.
Speaker 2:We did not have a clever way to do that transition, but I'm sorry. You don't have to live with it. There's been some... I think another thing that's been happening and is important is sort of anti AI sentiment in in in the the broader eco... In the broader community, really.
Speaker 2:You know, you've got what the the... One of the founders...
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Not the founder. One of the c... Old CEOs of Google gave a commencement speech where There
Speaker 1:was the word
Speaker 2:AI, he got booed. And this was happening all over the place, especially amongst younger people. And I totally get it because I... You there's clearly layoffs at tech companies, that's happening. But I also know of recent graduates who, if it had been four years ago, would have very high paying jobs, and they don't today because I believe it's AI, I can't really, I can't, you know, say that for certain, but I I I just feel that that's that's what's happening.
Speaker 2:And so people have this... There's this real worry in the in the the world, really, that AI is going to impact jobs. And also, environmental issues, energy use issues, there's water. There's all these other impacts that people are concerned about. Also, wealth inequality and how it looks like much of the value that's being generated here is flowing to, you know, a handful of very large companies, and they're very, very, very wealthy founders and CEOs.
Speaker 2:All these things are real, and it seems to be really picking up in in the world.
Speaker 1:I think ClickUp CEO posted something about laying off 22% of their workforce. It was Yep. 500 employees.
Speaker 2:Four to 500 people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Think they're about 1,500,
Speaker 2:600 people, something like that.
Speaker 1:And it was not well received, obviously. No. There was a lot of backlash around that. And, I mean, the the tone was off, and it hit some... There's this, like, thing with AI CEOs or software company CEOs now, you know, sort of AI washing their reasons for firing people, which is, pardon the French, you know, kinda shitty and and and to me, myopic.
Speaker 1:But I and and I really question some of the underlying premise for doing this because it seems to be grounded in this theory that, you know, that that in order to maximize the 100 x AI, you know, users, developers, and whatnot, you you have to shed the part of the company that is not as, quote, unquote, productive with AI. You know? It it... It's it's based on the thesis that things are actually moving so fast that you don't need people anymore and that you're... That you have a new company now that can operate at 100 x whatever efficiency and scale with much fewer resources than than you have, which seems completely crazy to me.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're really, a, going to be growing that fast, then it seems like you need every... All hands on deck to to be able to support it. You know? So Yeah. So I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1:I mean, what what do you think, Todd?
Speaker 2:Well, I think tech CEOs just are really tone deaf. That's one thing. It's it's it's shocking how tone deaf they are. I mean, the the ClickUp one was pretty bad, but even worse was was Cloudflare, where in the same Right. Message, they announced record earnings and record layoffs.
Speaker 2:Right. Like, you know, they they... The... What's very clear to everybody outside of Silicon Valley is that Silicon Valley is living in a bubble, and they don't know how to relate to the rest of the rest of the culture. I just think they're they're just...
Speaker 2:They're they're living in a in a in some in some alternate universe, and they're not understanding the looks that they're putting out. And they don't seem to care. Like, they just don't seem to care that that people are pretty upset. So there's that. And then there's...
Speaker 2:I think the common thread that you hear from the response to this is that they're just being greedy, and they just want more profits. And that very very well may be the case, but I happen to know just a little bit about ClickUp in terms of like their their financials and their and their application because we use ClickUp or we used to use ClickUp. I haven't opened ClickUp in months, and from what I can tell from the rest of our team, that seems to be more and more and more common. We don't need ClickUp anymore. And I think that's the real reason why ClickUp laid off 22% of their employees is that they were built...
Speaker 2:So ClickUp raised $553,000,000 of venture capital to build out a platform for the old era where there was no agentic coding. And so they built something that was supposed to be able to let you do any kind of business you wanted inside it. And to do that, you needed like 500 engineers and you needed a lot of money and you built a technical platform and that code that you wrote was the asset. And that was the thing that you were then going to get a $4,000,000,000 valuation on and continue to make money all the way to the bank. I I don't...
Speaker 2:This isn't... They're not a public company. They haven't IPO ed, so we don't know this for sure, but from what I've been able to... At least through through what's available out there, ClickUp never turned a profit in any year since they've been founded. And so now they're faced with a a massive change in how people interact with software, and it could just be that ClickUp's per seat based economics is collapsing, and they're actually in serious trouble, and so they have to lay off people.
Speaker 2:With $553,000,000 in the bank, that would be surprising, but maybe they do. Again, I don't know if any of that's true, but I certainly think it's possible, and it's a much better story to say, we are so darn efficient, so darn productive with our 100x engineers that we don't need all these people. Your investors love that story. The story that actually our per seat economics are collapsing and and our monthly active users are going down, and that's why we're laying off. Those are two totally different messages.
Speaker 2:The first one makes you sound like a hero, the second one makes it sound like you might be in serious trouble. So I think we have to take... We have to at least be open to the possibility that some of these layoffs are due to the fact that these companies were built for an economic underpinning that no longer exists. That everything's different, and you may not need ClickUp anymore, and that's a problem for ClickUp.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's still because of AI though, if you think about it.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 3:If that were true. Yeah. Still because of AI.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But then but then you take... So then you... There's other companies that are doing stuff differently. I wanna call out Linear here because they've done...
Speaker 2:They've taken a totally different attack, approach, which is in response to ClickUp's announcement yesterday, the CEO put out, we did not... His business tweet was, we didn't over hire. We're not laying anybody off. In fact, we're hiring for all roles. Right.
Speaker 2:And here's a link to the careers page. And And then they have this really great video about how great it is to work at Linear. Yep. And, you know, I was I was watching this thing, and I'm going, you know, it's a pretty cool company. They're a 100% remote.
Speaker 2:They're all over the world. Like us. And they try to create a good environment for their employees and their customers, and their customers really love them. And I thought, god, that sounds like that sounds like us. That sounds like what we try to do.
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 1:know? I'm rooting for
Speaker 2:linear. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's that? So I'm rooting for linear.
Speaker 2:I mean,
Speaker 1:I think I think there is linear. There is a lot of disruption in this space for sure. I think every... You know, there's, hopefully, the the the frothy hype around this... Like, peep...
Speaker 1:People are toying with this idea that you never need another SaaS company again because you can just vibe because you don't think... Hopefully hopefully, we are now close to disabusing people of this notion because I don't think that's actually true. And what I'm realizing is that, you know, I would love linear to take care of the nasty business of managing an app at scale that I don't have to worry about. That's really important to my core business. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would love for ClickUp to be that. It's just a shitty piece of software that doesn't work for us. You know? It's got... I mean, Eric, I know you love ClickUp or you used to love ClickUp.
Speaker 3:I used to.
Speaker 1:Used to. I used to love ClickUp.
Speaker 3:That's the thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But in this day and age, you know, it it, you know, the... Your taste has to adapt and keep up with the things that people value. If you can't do that, that is not necessarily AI's fault because everybody has AI too. So it's whether or not you can make that shift to to adapt.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. I think, yeah, AI is gonna be disruptive. Some SaaS companies don't deserve to exist. That is absolutely true, and that is just the economics of time. But I I don't think it's because everyone's building their own software and and you're needed anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's actually something else. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I I also I also don't buy that there's gonna be less people employed. I'm beginning to really think that that's... There there is gonna be a disruption, and it's going to be painful. I don't wanna be I wanna be very clear.
Speaker 2:Like, I think there will be a time... Like, I know young people graduate from college are having a very difficult time getting getting a job, and that's real. I... But I think this is temporary. I I do think it's temporary.
Speaker 2:I think people are the key thing. They are the bottleneck. I think actually in Ryan's post, said something... Said something about this that I actually quite liked, which was he said when when code is cheap, context becomes important. So the people that have the context to actually run the business and to understand how to develop systems for the business are the scarce resource.
Speaker 2:They're the ones that actually become more important. He's basically saying the same thing, is that it's people. It's still gonna be people that need to be driving these things, and they're not... That's not going away. I think that's true.
Speaker 2:I do think there's gonna be a disruption, and I do think it's gonna be challenging depending on where you are in your career and what you've, you know, what you've been... What you've done in your education and things like that. But I do think it's temporary, and I do think we get through it on the other side and that that people do get their jobs and and get to have careers and things like that. But I don't think there's a version of the future where AI is not a thing you have to deal with. Like, I don't I don't see that as like, this genie is not going back in the bottle.
Speaker 3:Did I hear you say the context as in the context podcast? Context Podcast. Whoever named this podcast, like
Speaker 2:We named the... We named this a long time ago because in... Because actually interesting. FileMaker was all about the context. Right?
Speaker 2:Where were you on the graph? Right? That was the context, so we understood that. So we were like little software agents. We had a token window that was the relationship graph, and that's where we were that's where we're going.
Speaker 2:Okay. May be carrying that that metaphor.
Speaker 1:It's a little a little bit too far,
Speaker 2:but A little too far, but hopefully you get the idea. Alright. Anything more to say about, AI this week and, like, whatever? We
Speaker 1:should, we should switch gears. I wanna bring this back to to ProofKit because ProofKit... Well, maybe maybe just just to set it up a little bit. ProofKit is not a new idea. ProofKit with AI is the part that I think is is new that we're bringing out, but the core idea that we can build web applications, in a controlled and sensible way, with all the tooling and and opinions and taste kinda figured out has been has been the core of ProofKit.
Speaker 1:And AI... The AI bit is what's really exciting about this release that that we wanna talk about. Right? So we mentioned that a little bit in in the top of the hour here, top of the podcast. But, we have some new things to share with ProofKit.
Speaker 1:Right, Todd?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, so people have been using it. We've kind of been in this sort of preview release. We haven't officially announced ProofKit on our, except there's a website which you can go to, which is proofkit. Proof.sh.
Speaker 2:So that's been up for a couple of weeks now and people have been using it, but it's been in sort of this preview mode. And we're finally done with the preview mode. It is out and complete, and we think we have a... It's a... It's in it's in good shape for people to really start pounding on.
Speaker 2:But we got a lot of feedback from people using it, which was really, really helpful. I think maybe the place to... So first thing I wanna say is on the screen here, we've got the homepage of ProofKit up and its tagline is Build Like Anything Is Possible Again. And that was just something that I started to feel when we closed the loop with the coding agents, and suddenly I could develop again within FileMaker in a way that felt really powerful. And it felt a lot like in the very beginning of my FileMaker journey where I could build...
Speaker 2:I just figured I could build anything that could run a business. Back then, there wasn't that many UI type things, like you just had a few, you had screens and you had fields and layouts and things, but it felt very powerful at that time to be able to build something that could run a business, right? And I started getting that feeling again, and so that's kinda where this idea of build like anything is possible again came from.
Speaker 3:I think we've seen that in our community too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I... Eric, you you were saying something about this too.
Speaker 3:Sure. Yeah. I mean, my first introduction to programming really came through FileMaker. Right? I first...
Speaker 3:I I was at a I was at a business that they had FileMaker for for labels. Yeah. That's all they're using FileMaker for. Was it was the funniest thing to me because I... Because they told me we want you to print this label.
Speaker 3:You open FileMaker, you duplicate this record, you type it in, you hit print. And I was like, what is... I was like, surely, what do we need FileMaker for this? And I looked into FileMaker and ended up building like a whole asset management system for them. But it was that experience.
Speaker 3:Right? It was like, oh, wow. I can solve a real problem. This tool gives me all these things that I can I can make this? I can solve this problem.
Speaker 3:I can make it work. And it just... And it felt like... So the more I learned about FileMaker, the more it was. And as we've put out ProofKit within our team and within our our, you know, Proof community, we've seen people have that same feeling.
Speaker 3:Like, it's not just Todd saying it. And if you try Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not... It isn't just us. Let me let me switch us to
Speaker 3:Do you have the post? There's some people who posted in
Speaker 2:our community. Change tabs. I have to... I forget. And with sharing, have to change...
Speaker 2:Here we go. So here's one. So this is somebody who discovered ProofKit, Matthew, seven days ago. He said he's 26 and he's been working with FileMaker for ten years, running his family's manufacturing business, which is a really cool business. They do aftermarket parts for off roading vehicles, Jeeps, think kid cars and things like that, so big shocks and wheels and off road stuff.
Speaker 2:So they're a custom manufacturer for that industry, and they run their entire business in FileMaker. And so he's been doing this for ten years, and he says he says, I hit a limit Changing my own What's that?
Speaker 3:Oh, go ahead. You're reading this quote.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I hit a limit with my own abilities and started to become frustrated with FileMaker as a platform even though I've been using FileMaker as my exclusive way to program and build apps since I was 16. That is until I stumbled on this project. It is changing what is achievable for me as someone without a heavy web development background to be able to build things I never thought would be possible. Like, that is the feeling that we hope people are having, and apparently they are, and it's pretty exciting.
Speaker 2:Like, this is this is really what drives me. I've been doing FileMaker since the nineties, like, thirty years. Right? And so this community means a lot to me. And when I see stuff like this, it's like that's that's just feels so great to see somebody get that spark reignited again that they that they now feel like they can do anything they want again.
Speaker 2:It's so awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's the thing. I mean, I... There's kind of two messages here. I wanna make sure I'm clear.
Speaker 3:ProofKit, what we're providing in the ProofKit package that if you haven't seen, by the way, go and watch our YouTube videos and read the docs and you know, we've shown it to lots of other places. So we won't get into it too far here. But what we're providing there is nothing new. You know, it is essentially everything that we have learned about building web viewer applications for FileMaker over what? Sixteen years?
Speaker 1:Sixteen years. Yeah.
Speaker 3:All these things. And and so when I look at this because I've been on the web team kind of building it behind the scenes. A lot of this isn't... There's not that much special here to me. Right?
Speaker 3:It's all it's all old stuff from what I... My perspective. But but when I look at when I look at our team, all all other FileMaker developers that had never gotten into the web stack, all of a sudden are building all kinds of new dashboards and views and and stuff. Like, that's that's where things are changing is it's... The AI loop has made it accessible to so many more people now.
Speaker 1:Let me pull on that thread a little bit. And this is a question for both of you. So let... Let's imagine that I'm I'm new to this, and I know I can vibe code up or call... Use Claude or Codex and just make an HTML app pretty easily.
Speaker 1:Like, why would I need ProofKit? I mean, I can already build a web app, right, directly in Claude. Like, what's special about ProofKit that makes us different?
Speaker 3:The key thing is the loop and the harness that we talked about for... In the beginning is that before ProofKit, if you wanted to do this with FileMaker, there was a lot of copying. You'd have to copy your HTML that you generated and put it in FileMaker and then it might work, it might not. Right? Because there might...
Speaker 3:It might have called the wrong script name or it might call the wrong field names or something. But now, kind of kind of the magic behind the scenes piece is we've built a a plugin so that a a web... Any web browser can pretend like it's a FileMaker web viewer.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Right? And so now what you have is you can be in Claude developing your app, and Claude has an embedded browser that it can use, it can look at, it can read errors for. And when you're using that embedded browser that thinks it's a FileMaker web viewer, it can talk to FileMaker. Right? And so you get the full end to end loop that Claude can read its own mistakes, check its work, and make sure that it's building a real app.
Speaker 3:That's the thing that we we always had... We would always tell people you have to develop in a FileMaker web viewer. You couldn't use Chrome. You know, you'd have to... There were...
Speaker 3:We had ways of doing that. But with agents, that just didn't work because the agents couldn't read the FileMaker web viewer, now they can.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's really what it is.
Speaker 2:So there's a there's a there's the agentic loop, so the agentic harness part. And then the other key thing is the project setup, right, where where agents get smarter based on the project... If the project starts and it's not started well, it's not going to go very far, like it's gonna fall apart. You need to build, you need to give the agents a strong foundation. They learn that foundation and they build on top of it.
Speaker 2:So They like the other repeat path patterns. Yes, they love to repeat patterns. They look in your code base and say, oh, I'm using 10 stack query, I know how to use that, And then they just go to town using that. So if you don't if you don't have a good strong set of of architectures in place and the agent doesn't know what to do, it's gonna it's gonna do whatever it thinks is is okay. And the and the the hard part is you may actually get pretty far, but if you do some googling, you'll find places where people, you know, have no programming no programming experience, got very excited, and then they spent six weeks five coding an application, and then it just falls over because it's just a pile of...
Speaker 2:It doesn't know. There's there's no opinions. There's no technical expertise expressed anywhere in that application, so the agent eventually just goes into a death spiral. So ProofKit also applies a very good project setup and a very good set of deterministic guardrails that keep the agent within the boundaries of a decent project. So those two things together, the agent figuring out its own errors and the project setup and deterministic guardrails are really what gets you something that will work quickly out of the box and will have a much better chance of actually continuing to work as you build it, as you make it more and more complex.
Speaker 1:Right. It is also, I mean, I think this is subtle, but probably really important. Developing in ProofKit, it's like developing inside a web viewer as if you were in FileMaker. I mean, we're effectively almost, transporting the native FileMaker experience inside the Cloud environment so that Cloud can understand it and knows how to make all the necessary connections. And you're not...
Speaker 1:You don't have this human in the loop guessing game where you're gonna copy paste out and and get the errors, come back and fix it, and all that is doing it entirely within its own session, within its own agentic space. Right? Because without that, you... Those two steps are kinda decoupled. You have to vibe code up your HTML, whatever you want, bring it over to web viewer, test it, figure it out, see what broke, make the script connections, come back, and do it all over again.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And so here's another example of somebody who's what we call getting AI pilled or heading into AI psychosis because suddenly they can do things again that just, just open up their eyes to what's possible. So this is wild, depending on conversation with my database, I've just burned through all of my tokens. So this is, I think Ernest wrote a blog post about AI psychosis, and one of the things that happens is people tend to start staying up super late, not sleeping, because they're so excited about what they're doing. That's a double edged sword obviously, think, I don't know if it's something that everybody has to go through this sort of period of almost manic, just like working on every problem you ever thought about all at the same time and staying up all night, not sleeping.
Speaker 2:I don't know if everybody has to go through it, it's very common that this is what happens to people. It's like suddenly, oh my god, I can rebuild my entire FileMaker interface and then they don't sleep for three months, something like that. So that does happen and be aware of that, notice that that might be what's happening to you. Know, something just to watch, I think is the thing. Don't destroy your health, but it also appears that for at least most people, this period just burns out.
Speaker 2:You go about three months and then you kind of return to a more normal approach to your work cycle. But it's again, it's because it's so exciting to do this stuff and to be able to do things that you couldn't do before that drives this kind of just creative burst of energy that's frankly hard to contain. Solve all the problems. Solve all the problems you can solve. Right?
Speaker 2:All the problems. This
Speaker 3:is the other thing, and I'm sure maybe we've said this before already, but I think it was... It must have been like DevCon twenty nineteen that the whole slogan was, or was it about problem solvers?
Speaker 1:Problem solvers. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right. And that is... I mean, just because it's an old slogan doesn't make it any less true. I mean, FileMaker developers are...
Speaker 3:They're not like the other... Any other developer out there. Like, they are always about getting the the code, the implementation detail doesn't matter. I know a lot of FileMaker devs like to like to think all in FileMaker terms, but but in reality, you're you're just trying to solve a business problem or whatever whatever the problem is. You're just trying to solve And now, we can use AI just like the rest of the of the software development ecosystem to solve those problems and build things that we may not have the experience for anymore.
Speaker 3:And we can just... Oh, and build it faster. I mean, I can build these kind of layouts, but I can't build it as fast as like as AI can. So even I'm using it like this. So, you know, it's it's very powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm just kind of paging through for those of you who are watching on YouTube or those of you who who are listening, we're just looking at some examples of things that can be built with AI and inside of FileMaker. So these are all examples of things that that we built inside of inside of FileMaker. And so it's pretty much any kind of UI that you can imagine is available to do. You just have to kind of prompt it to get it done.
Speaker 2:And, know, even different... It's got different... Because we're based on SHATCN, is a very popular user interface kit or theming system, you can do all kinds of different themes, and there's a great theme editor, there's like a design surface, you can design how you want your things to look and feel, and then you can just copy this snippet out and say to your agent, hey, apply this SHAD CN preset, paste in this little snippet, and it will go and it'll make different themes. Like here's a totally different theme than the default UI that we ship with ProofKit, and it can do dark mode and light mode, so you can add that kind of support to your app, is, you know, that was very hard to do. In fact, not really possible to add default dark mode and light mode.
Speaker 2:And all you have to do is just ask your agent, like, give me a dark mode light mode switch in the upper right hand corner, and it will do it, and it will just work. It'll build everything with both dark and light mode in place. So this is just stuff you couldn't do really in FileMaker, and now you can. Now you really can. It doesn't mean you're not gonna have to learn new things, but it is now because the agent's in this loop and everything you set up, you're going to get to a place that you're gonna be happy with pretty fast, and then you just have to keep iterating, learning and iterating.
Speaker 2:Alright.
Speaker 3:I know there's a lot of other like amazing... We can praise ProofKit all we want. But I think maybe we should talk a little bit about some of the either things you're gonna have to learn, the things to watch out for, or we could also just really quick touch on WebDirect and how cool WebDirect is.
Speaker 2:Oh. Yeah. I think should talk about WebDirect. I think we probably want to
Speaker 3:Goodness.
Speaker 2:We probably want to... In fact, let me see if I can...
Speaker 1:So this was a surprise to me because It
Speaker 2:was because it didn't used to work. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:WebDirect always was like... Especially as a web developer, it was always like, I think people still view it as this as this thing that is like silly thing. Why would you use it? Like, just doesn't... It never works right.
Speaker 3:There's all these quirks that you might be aware of. Well... Actually, it's pretty popular because you don't have to install FileMaker Pro.
Speaker 2:Very popular.
Speaker 1:It was... It's very popular, and and there are many, many use cases where it's exactly the right thing to do because you... Hey. You don't Yeah. Have a guaranteed desktop access, for example, and you need a more consistent web base way of, you know, showing the the app that you have and sharing it globally and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 3:So this is WebDirect that Todd's showing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:WebDirect right here. But it was always fundamentally a renderer of... It can convert it... Your FileMaker layout into a web based HTML version of it. Right?
Speaker 1:So it was always doing this conversion thing on on the fly behind the scenes. Right? But we're not building native FileMaker layouts anymore, which means the stuff that we're building is this native web code from
Speaker 2:the This get is FileMaker, just to be clear. The layout we're looking at here is FileMaker. Right. I noticed one of the things, if I resize the screen, you see that reflash and redraw?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So that's what a native FileMaker file layout does when you resize the screen. Not great. Right? Not ideal. Let's take a look at a chat app, and let's resize it.
Speaker 2:No flash.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's pretty great.
Speaker 2:So this is built with ProofKit, And this is a fully functional... This is our next version of... Well, it's not even... ProofKit's another thing we have to talk about. We have come back and deal with that at some point because we can now make ProofKit so much easier and so much better based on this new technology that we have to think about what we do with Proof Chat, which we released a number of months ago.
Speaker 2:But here's an example of me rebuilding Proof Chat with ProofKit, and it works great. I can use, I can talk to models, I get the same thing, and look at the difference. The UI is just way better. Now I just haven't turned off this menu in the script setup Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or something. So this great... Ignore this gray bar up here. If you ignore that, the rest of this is a beautiful web app.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is a
Speaker 2:web app.
Speaker 1:It's not a converted FileMaker layout. It is a web app.
Speaker 2:So what used to happen... What's different is used to be that when you did this, you still got that reloading thing. And that's been fixed in recent versions of FileMaker that reloading dialogue doesn't happen anymore. It's just the web app that we put in there is the only thing that's drawing. And also, if you did...
Speaker 2:If you if you click the back button, which you can't see me click here, and you won't see the dialogue because I'm... It's sharing. But if you click the back button, you log out a file of of a a web Or
Speaker 3:refresh button.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or the refresh. But either way now, I'm not sharing my screen so you can you can't see it. But I get a dialogue that says, hey, you sure you wanna leave? And so if you click cancel, you're not booted out of the app.
Speaker 2:So there was in the... A few years ago, if you hit command r or you hit the back button, you would lose your web direct, you'd lose this nice And
Speaker 3:lose what layout you're on
Speaker 2:Anything that you were in, like it would all be rebooted from scratch. Now that doesn't happen. The refresh doesn't happen and the logging out doesn't happen so you're in a much better place. So WebDirect is actually now a great place to deploy your your UI with FileMaker, your your new your new web UIs with FileMaker, and again, it's secure. You're not serving a web app which is subject to all of the security concerns that that all other web apps are are subject to, you're serving something that's still behind the FileMaker sandbox here, which is really fantastic.
Speaker 3:It's huge.
Speaker 2:I actually think that that one of the biggest problems that enterprises today have, big companies, is they want to enable their users to be able to make apps, but they cannot because they cannot allow them to deploy applications into a standard deployment scenario because that takes... For an enterprise company, that is a massive undertaking. It has to do with regulation, what regulations they're they're subject to, security concerns, just the list goes on and on and on and on and on. So even though somebody can make an app, there's no way they can share it at an enterprise because they can't... Unless they have a platform that they can deploy that safely into without handing it over to a dev team and, you know, a dev ops team to manage that, they can't do it.
Speaker 2:They literally cannot do it.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yeah. If the platform... If... You know, the...
Speaker 1:These are, like, app containers that you Yes. All the the tricky bits about making it compatible and safe within an enterprise have already been solved, essentially, and you don't have to retool and rebuild out. This is really, really important for businesses and enterprise. Right? I mean, even in our own use case, I mean, it's much easier to deploy a app into a FileMaker based environment than into, say, for sale or anything else.
Speaker 1:Because every time you do that, you're thinking, is it a new author? Is it a new this? Is it a new that? How do you provision anything?
Speaker 2:That comes out that I have to deal with. On and on and on and on on. Right. Cool. So it's pretty great.
Speaker 2:I I think this is gonna become the new thing that people want to do is make their... Redo their UIs and their apps into web apps, and then ship them over web direct. And I think it's gonna be pretty great. There are use cases for the desktop app, and there are very interesting use cases for the desktop app, especially in things like manufacturing, if you have your FileMaker apps that connect directly to machines through, say serial ports or plugins or things like that, then you have a native app. You can install that, you can do it, it works fine.
Speaker 2:But if you have sales guys, you know, running around with laptops or whatever, they don't need FileMaker.
Speaker 1:They just Sure.
Speaker 2:Just need WebDirect. Right?
Speaker 1:And also it's worth mentioning that this this also just works on on on at least on iOS with Sure. Yeah. FileMaker Go. And I I It'll work on...
Speaker 2:It'll work... It'll... This one, there's... We don't... I didn't I didn't build in the collapsing.
Speaker 2:It has a collapsing sidebar, but I didn't set it to do it on mobile. But if you build it responsibly, it's gonna do... It's gonna behave not like a FileMaker layout responsive, but like a web app. If you tell it to be responsive, it's gonna do it. And so it'll work on mobile.
Speaker 1:As a web app. Yes. But also as a... As an iOS app directly.
Speaker 2:That's right. As a Go app.
Speaker 1:As a Go app. I mean I mean, Mike Mike was hanging out in Jack's for a few days. We we had a client visit on-site, and he had built this, like, really amazing meeting notes management tool for something else he's working on. And he just pulled it up on his phone. So I did this with ProofKit.
Speaker 1:It was an iOS app. Was like, wow. This looks amazing. It's like, did you do that? Yes.
Speaker 1:It was really, really awesome. So I was thrilled to see that.
Speaker 2:Yep. And you can deploy that even through the App Store.
Speaker 1:Can deploy AI, FileMaker, through
Speaker 2:the App Store if you want. So these kinds of things, it really opens opens up a lot of possibilities. So WebDirect is, I think, gonna become super popular. It already is for certain use cases. Another thing that's just worth saying is if you have a global user base, WebDirect is gonna is gonna win because the FileMaker Pro data connection is very chatty and very subject to latency, but WebDirect is less so.
Speaker 2:You're gonna have... We've had very large enterprise customers that use WebDirect to serve a global user base around the globe, And they like Web Direct because, again, they understand the security profile, they get it, and Web Direct works great for them, and there's no, they don't have a lot of performance issues based on the FileMaker native latency problems that you have. So I think it's gonna be a big hit amongst people, enterprises, and others that have global audiences or just wanna be able to allow more vibe coding and be able to share it really easily. It's pretty easy to do with a FileMaker file.
Speaker 1:Alright. So... Much ProofKit?
Speaker 3:How much is ProofKit by the way, Todd?
Speaker 2:ProofKit is very, very, very cheap. In fact, it's so cheap, it's 0. $0. There's no cost for ProofKit.
Speaker 3:Does that mean that I can build ProofKit apps for free? Really?
Speaker 2:It does mean that you can build ProofKit apps for free.
Speaker 3:In fact, let me let me ask You have to pay for tokens is what I was hoping you'd say. There are still tokens involved.
Speaker 1:But Well, that's between you and your token master. That's
Speaker 3:Your token master.
Speaker 1:That's
Speaker 3:You do need a cloud. We suggest you get a cloud subscription or a codec subscription or something for
Speaker 2:Yeah. The subscriptions are highly subsidized. It's well worth the... Especially if you're able to ship stuff into your app and get use out of it immediately. If you're experimenting and not all the way in yet, you can maybe use a cheaper one.
Speaker 2:But once you've decided to like really build with this method, you're probably gonna wanna get one of the one of the other tiers of where they're subsidizing the tokens quite a bit.
Speaker 1:So, yes, definitely check out the show notes for links, but, proofkit.proof.sh is where you wanna go for the website. And there's this playlist that I wanna make sure people know about. This is on YouTube. There's a ProofKit playlist, videos on how to get started, key things, how... Some tips and tricks to to get things going.
Speaker 1:It's worth watching this if you are new to ProofKit and wanna get started. Highly recommend.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And in terms of, like, YouTube and social media, one of the things we would love is if you build something with ProofKit, you're really excited about it, post it. Post it in our community, post it on on social media, YouTube, LinkedIn, whatever you use, what threads, whatever you post on, post on it and send us a link either in the community or through email support@atProof.sh. Send us a link for that, and we'd love to just to know about what people are building so we can... It's just...
Speaker 2:It's kind of like, honestly, it just gives me a lot of energy to see what people are doing. I I hope people get really excited and and become very proud of what they're able to build with ProofKit. That's actually my number one goal is for people to take a sense of pride and ownership in what they're doing with this stuff and to just dig it the way that I dig building with it. And so share that with us. And if you do, we will invite you to...
Speaker 2:We're gonna do office hours and we're gonna do... So we already have office hours that go on internally, and we will invite you to those office hours so you can hang out and learn from what we're doing with with ProofKit.
Speaker 1:I think it's worth maybe also saying that ProofKit is not a product in the sense that we are developing something, you know, to... For for a a profit motive or anything like that. What it really is is this is the tool and the framework in the kit that we are using ourselves at Proof to do do our own work in... Inside the company and for our clients and customers and so forth. You know?
Speaker 1:So so if you wanna know what Proof is doing and how Proof develops, this is it. This is it. This is this is the whole kit and caboodle, so to speak. This is this is all of our opinions and tastes for, two decades, compressed into an installer that anybody who wants to be part of that can also take advantage. We have good reasons to to do that.
Speaker 1:A, well, I don't wanna get too deep into it. Just to say that the more we can socialize this and make available, I think it benefits everybody, including us. Yeah. And it certainly makes, our work stronger, and this is why we're keen on sharing. So your feedback is absolutely welcome, and we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Share your stories. Tell us what we can do better.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I thought, Aaron, as you said, it's not it's not just a product. I thought you're gonna say it's a way of life.
Speaker 1:That's... I stopped myself.
Speaker 2:That may be a bit much.
Speaker 1:It was a little too much.
Speaker 2:Right. But it is it is a new way. It is a new way of building, and it's a new world, and it's very exciting. And I know it's got the issues with... You know, we talked...
Speaker 2:Touched a little bit about the AI controversies, and they're real, and we don't wanna downplay those. But this is a very powerful way of building applications, and I think if you give it a shot and you get and you get into it, you will be very excited about what you do. And if you are, please share it with us. We we would love to know about what you're doing. So, yeah, I think with that, we will...
Speaker 2:Yeah. What? Stay stay tuned to our podcast. Stay tuned to our YouTube channel. We're we're releasing more and more ProofKit stuff on the YouTube channel and our blog, of course, and...
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was just gonna
Speaker 3:say, like like the video, subscribe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like and subscribe. Tell your friends.
Speaker 1:Show tell
Speaker 3:all things that you're supposed to do,
Speaker 2:please. Yeah. Smash that subscribe button or whatever. Right down right down here or up there.
Speaker 1:We're so we're so bad at this. We're so bad.
Speaker 2:On that note, later. Thanks, everybody. Bye bye now.