#1 – Damien Bohler: Men, intimacy, relationships, showing up, and taking back your attention

In this first Wayshowers podcast episode, I speak with Damien Bohler, an Australian man with profound teachings on intimacy, sexuality, relationships, authenticity, embodiment.

Together, we engage in visionary musings on the future of men and masculinity, and I hope it will help you show your way forwards.

And for those of you who are curious, here are the mentioned movie reviews Damien wrote many years ago

Garden State
https://www.masculinity-movies.com/user-review/garden-state

Our Idiot Brother
https://www.masculinity-movies.com/user-review/our-idiot-brother

Blood Diamond
https://www.masculinity-movies.com/user-review/blood-diamond

Creators & Guests

Host

Eivind F. Skjellum

Men's coach. Writer. Family man. Truth teller.

Guest

Damien Bohler

Authentic relating & intimacy guide

What is The Wayshowers Podcast?

In the Wayshowers podcast, we have deep conversations with visionary leaders from across the world on the future of men & masculinity. Hosted by Eivind Figenschau Skjellum, men's coach and founder of Reclaim your Inner Throne.

This transcript is automatically created from Adobe Premiere Pro, and will have errors in it.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Eivind

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Speaker 1
Welcome to the Wayshower podcast, Damien.

00;00;05;22 - 00;00;07;03
Speaker 2
Thanks, Eivind. Thanks for having me.

00;00;08;00 - 00;00;09;05
Speaker 1
You're my first guest.

00;00;10;08 - 00;00;14;01
Speaker 2
And I feel honored to be here. Yeah.

00;00;14;18 - 00;00;17;29
Speaker 1
But we're just catching up a little bit before I pressed record here.

00;00;17;29 - 00;00;18;13
Speaker 1
And.

00;00;20;08 - 00;00;39;29
Speaker 1
Remembering back to the first time that we met. And I think we agreed that the first time we met physically was in Boulder, Colorado, back in 2013. 2014. Mm hmm. And while life has taken you some places since then.

00;00;39;29 - 00;00;42;26
Speaker 2
As it has you two, it's true.

00;00;43;21 - 00;01;08;10
Speaker 1
And I'm just. I loved seeing you building your platform out there and putting out your trainings and. And just becoming a very profound teacher in your own right. And I see that you've gathered quite a big following by now. So whenever you put something out, like there are, there's like a stream of women feeling so seen by you and they're loving it and sharing it.

00;01;08;14 - 00;01;24;04
Speaker 1
And so I need to know what happened there, because when I met you in Boulder, you were relationally frustrated and trying to figure out this thing about intimacy. And now you seem to be the authority on the subject.

00;01;25;00 - 00;01;28;18
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. I was just.

00;01;28;18 - 00;01;30;15
Speaker 3
Reflecting, just as you're giving that intro.

00;01;30;16 - 00;01;33;16
Speaker 2
That it's quite interesting. We were both.

00;01;33;16 - 00;01;45;17
Speaker 3
In Boulder at the same time, and we were both doing trainings. I mean, you were doing a longer training than me, but I do remember that my intent to go over to the US was to learn.

00;01;46;17 - 00;01;48;13
Speaker 2
And to learn to facilitate.

00;01;48;13 - 00;01;51;29
Speaker 3
Something. I didn't know what, but I knew that I wanted to learn to.

00;01;53;23 - 00;01;54;26
Speaker 2
Be a leader. But I would.

00;01;54;26 - 00;02;14;19
Speaker 3
Never have said that at the time. I would never would have said that I wanted to be a leader. I wanted to be on authority, or I wanted to be a teacher. But there was definitely a calling that was pulling me that said, I need to learn how I just need to learn. I just need to learn because there's going to there's something that I have to offer and I just like I knew that and I've known that for, for a long time.

00;02;14;19 - 00;02;16;28
Speaker 3
I think.

00;02;17;20 - 00;02;21;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and intimacy has been.

00;02;22;12 - 00;02;24;27
Speaker 3
One of the things that frustrated me my.

00;02;24;27 - 00;02;25;13
Speaker 2
Whole life.

00;02;26;08 - 00;02;28;06
Speaker 3
Some of my earliest experiences.

00;02;28;19 - 00;02;28;28
Speaker 2
You know.

00;02;28;28 - 00;02;34;22
Speaker 3
All the way back in preschool, in primary school, were of rejection and humiliation by.

00;02;34;22 - 00;02;35;09
Speaker 2
Girls.

00;02;35;23 - 00;02;44;11
Speaker 3
And I spent a long time in my shell and confused. I was very late to date. I was very late to become sexually active. It wasn't until my twenties.

00;02;44;29 - 00;02;49;08
Speaker 2
Early twenties that my hair and her.

00;02;49;25 - 00;02;52;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Sam, your stories. My three.

00;02;53;12 - 00;03;08;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And you? Yeah. And I just. I knew it was something like. I feel like I knew very young. That relationship was important, you know? And I like, honestly, I feel.

00;03;08;28 - 00;03;32;23
Speaker 3
Like I knew very young that, you know, I'm I don't know how to use the language for it because there's so much bias around the language. But I knew that there was a spiritual dimension. I knew that there was an evolution. I knew that there was you know, I was raised to Buddhist parents. So I was raised in a paradigm that thought of enlightenment and thought of, you know, awakening and sort of processes like that, you know, reincarnation, everything.

00;03;32;23 - 00;03;34;21
Speaker 3
So that was very much, in my vernacular and.

00;03;34;21 - 00;03;35;05
Speaker 2
In my.

00;03;35;18 - 00;03;46;05
Speaker 3
In my worldview growing up. So I knew that it was like a, a spiritual dimension to life. And there was more to life and reality than, than than what we see.

00;03;46;05 - 00;03;49;06
Speaker 2
And and I think I was moved.

00;03;50;12 - 00;03;56;27
Speaker 3
Not so much to the awakening path that my parents, particularly my father, follows, but more to the growing up path.

00;03;56;27 - 00;03;58;20
Speaker 2
The the how.

00;03;58;20 - 00;04;09;05
Speaker 3
Can I become actualized in this life versus kind of maybe escape this life or escape this reality in a way? So I'm just giving a little bit of context for my story.

00;04;09;22 - 00;04;12;22
Speaker 2
And I knew that somehow I.

00;04;12;22 - 00;04;30;29
Speaker 3
Knew that relationships was important. And I remember like it was like in my late teens or early twenties around that time where I like I felt this internal decision that I was like, if I wake up or if I become enlightened or if I become the most evolved being that I could be or whatever it is, I don't I didn't know the language.

00;04;31;13 - 00;04;36;02
Speaker 3
I want to do it with someone else. I don't want to do it on my own. I want to do it in relationship with someone else.

00;04;36;15 - 00;04;37;17
Speaker 2
So that was a.

00;04;38;03 - 00;04;45;15
Speaker 3
That was something that pulled me very strongly into thinking about relationship and then my.

00;04;46;00 - 00;04;47;10
Speaker 2
My encounters all.

00;04;47;10 - 00;04;48;17
Speaker 3
The way through my twenties, where.

00;04;48;17 - 00;04;49;26
Speaker 2
With this.

00;04;50;01 - 00;05;04;01
Speaker 3
Stuff I'd been hurt so badly by women that I went for safe women who were, you know, it's harsh to say, but less developed than me. So I was frustrated and unmet, you know. And so that was a long process of that. And then.

00;05;04;12 - 00;05;04;18
Speaker 2
So.

00;05;04;18 - 00;05;15;14
Speaker 3
Is a long process of like developing enough self-worth and starting to claim what what I wanted and who I wanted to be met. And then it was a process of.

00;05;15;28 - 00;05;16;07
Speaker 2
You know.

00;05;16;07 - 00;05;35;23
Speaker 3
Dating and dating and dating, you know, and kind of getting a refinement through that. Dating of what I wanted in relationship, you know, until I until I met my, my current partner who I feel walks this path with me and she wants the same thing as me, you know, and we're committed to relationship as a crucible. We're committed.

00;05;35;23 - 00;05;37;21
Speaker 2
To an.

00;05;37;21 - 00;05;43;12
Speaker 3
Evolutionary path for ourselves and also relationship and in service of something beyond us. You know, we're.

00;05;43;12 - 00;05;44;00
Speaker 2
Both feel.

00;05;44;08 - 00;05;54;13
Speaker 3
Committed to leaving something for our children, our children's children, you know, what is it? How do we help the world to wake up into something more, to evolve into something more?

00;05;55;08 - 00;05;55;17
Speaker 2
So it's.

00;05;55;17 - 00;05;59;26
Speaker 3
Not just relationship for the purpose of my own gratification, it's relationship is service.

00;05;59;26 - 00;06;00;08
Speaker 2
Too.

00;06;00;24 - 00;06;05;23
Speaker 3
So I don't know if that fully answered, but that's kind of a little story of where I am.

00;06;06;04 - 00;06;08;04
Speaker 2
Where I am now, and on that path I.

00;06;08;04 - 00;06;13;05
Speaker 3
Just want one last little thing. It's like I seem to be someone who loves.

00;06;13;05 - 00;06;15;06
Speaker 2
To and I make.

00;06;15;06 - 00;06;17;24
Speaker 3
Up that you're probably quite similar. I love to.

00;06;18;13 - 00;06;19;00
Speaker 2
I love to.

00;06;19;00 - 00;06;24;09
Speaker 3
Understand the way things work. I love to understand the mechanics of how things work.

00;06;24;09 - 00;06;25;15
Speaker 2
Like what are the what are.

00;06;25;15 - 00;06;26;15
Speaker 3
The baseline.

00;06;28;03 - 00;06;29;19
Speaker 2
Principles, structures.

00;06;29;19 - 00;06;32;26
Speaker 3
Skill sets, developments, technologies, however you want to call.

00;06;32;26 - 00;06;33;01
Speaker 2
It.

00;06;33;13 - 00;06;57;04
Speaker 3
That are ubiquitous to all of us, you know. And so I looked at a relationship from that perspective. What are the baseline things of relationship that inarguably, no matter what type of relationship you have, are important, you know, you can't actually function properly without them. So that's kind of what's driven me and I think that's what has given me this platform is I'm able to articulate those things quite well.

00;06;57;26 - 00;06;58;05
Speaker 2
Hmm.

00;06;59;02 - 00;07;32;21
Speaker 1
Great. So I've noticed I spent a spend some time on your Facebook feed over the last couple of days to really get a sense for what you're up to. And this this idea of relationship as a crucible seems really like central to your work and I have a sense that the kind of relationship you're talking about is, is even though it's applied to all relationships, is primarily the intimate relationship that you see us as.

00;07;32;21 - 00;07;36;00
Speaker 1
This crucible is correct, or how do you see it?

00;07;36;28 - 00;07;38;24
Speaker 2
Well, at this point.

00;07;38;27 - 00;07;54;17
Speaker 3
You know, I was touching in with you a little bit before. It's like I'm focused on relationship at this particular moment, but it's not my only interest, you know, in the time period since since I met you in Boulder, I was I've also been a permaculture teacher. You know, I went and lived on a farm for a couple of years.

00;07;54;24 - 00;08;03;15
Speaker 3
I love permaculture design and I started consulting and teaching for that. So, you know, it's like and I've I've been fascinated by community structure and organizational structures.

00;08;03;15 - 00;08;04;19
Speaker 2
So I don't.

00;08;04;19 - 00;08;16;14
Speaker 3
Think it's the it's the only relationship. However, I do think it's an important relationship. I think the romantic relationship is a central relationship in the human story. It's something that.

00;08;17;05 - 00;08;19;00
Speaker 2
Almost everyone wants.

00;08;20;11 - 00;08;28;24
Speaker 3
Whatever form they want it in, whether they want polyamorous, monogamous, same sex, whatever, it doesn't matter. Most everyone wants a romantic sexual relationship.

00;08;28;24 - 00;08;29;05
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;08;29;22 - 00;08;39;07
Speaker 3
You know, and most people spend their time either talking about their desire for one or talking about their struggles if they're in one, you know, and it's.

00;08;39;07 - 00;08;44;03
Speaker 2
Such a central figure. Yeah, it is. It's such a central feature of of human life.

00;08;44;03 - 00;08;44;21
Speaker 3
You know, it's like.

00;08;45;02 - 00;08;46;02
Speaker 2
Most TV.

00;08;46;02 - 00;09;01;11
Speaker 3
Shows and movies are oriented around and even action movies are usually have a romantic story that runs through the middle of it somehow. It's a sexual relationship and it's important, you know, and you know, one of the things why I think it's so important is.

00;09;01;11 - 00;09;10;04
Speaker 2
That if it's because it occupies so much attention and energy, if they aren't working, the amount of energy.

00;09;10;04 - 00;09;12;13
Speaker 3
That drains from the individuals and our societies and.

00;09;12;13 - 00;09;13;28
Speaker 2
Cultures towards.

00;09;13;28 - 00;09;19;22
Speaker 3
Toxic relationships that just spill our energy out the bottom is immense. And if we're going to evolve, we need to cut that out like we just can't.

00;09;19;22 - 00;09;19;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;09;20;19 - 00;09;33;15
Speaker 1
And you wrote something really profound on your wall a few days back, something along the lines of relationships evolve when they produce more energy than they consume. Yeah, I thought that was interesting.

00;09;34;20 - 00;09;40;25
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't until we get to that point, you know, it's well it's until we get to that.

00;09;40;25 - 00;09;41;26
Speaker 3
Point where we're actually.

00;09;42;05 - 00;09;43;20
Speaker 2
Like if relationship.

00;09;43;20 - 00;09;48;04
Speaker 3
Becomes a crucible and a sanctity and a sanctuary for our individual soul.

00;09;48;04 - 00;09;49;28
Speaker 2
To flourish, then we actually.

00;09;50;05 - 00;09;52;26
Speaker 3
Can like producing energy from a relationship.

00;09;52;26 - 00;09;55;12
Speaker 2
We actually, the individuals become more empowered.

00;09;55;21 - 00;10;11;11
Speaker 3
You know, they become more powerful. They become more powerful agents in the world, you know. And that's, I think, where we where we start to touch points, especially you and I, with the premise of this podcast and the work you're doing I doing is it's like, how do we become powerful agents in this world?

00;10;11;20 - 00;10;13;12
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

00;10;14;14 - 00;10;30;02
Speaker 1
That's a nice segway to men and masculinity. Yeah. Do you find that you have more women in your work, or do you find a lot of men come towards you as well?

00;10;30;02 - 00;10;31;01
Speaker 2
It's more women, but the.

00;10;31;01 - 00;10;32;06
Speaker 3
Amount of men are increasing.

00;10;32;22 - 00;10;34;04
Speaker 2
There are more men showing up.

00;10;34;10 - 00;10;56;15
Speaker 3
There are. There are definitely you know, when I started two years ago, kind of by accident, that's a whole different story, predominantly women. But I would say the percentage, you know, is probably like 85% women and I'd say it's probably 60% women now. You know, it's like there's actually been a significant shift. I see more men showing up.

00;10;56;15 - 00;11;03;01
Speaker 3
I see more men following me. I see more men commenting and liking. I see more men showing up to the workshops and the courses that I.

00;11;03;01 - 00;11;05;05
Speaker 2
Run and the.

00;11;05;05 - 00;11;16;20
Speaker 3
Men who come so earnest, like it's beautiful. It touches me. You know, one of the flagship course I have is about teaching authentic, relating skills. You know, this is a background that you and I share.

00;11;17;06 - 00;11;18;03
Speaker 2
And the.

00;11;18;03 - 00;11;20;19
Speaker 3
Men who show up to these courses are so earnest.

00;11;20;26 - 00;11;27;09
Speaker 2
Like, it's. It's beautiful. Yeah.

00;11;27;09 - 00;11;51;21
Speaker 1
And as you are with them, it 40% now that's that's a very good ratio. In my experience in the personal development field, I would have guessed more like 2080. But yeah, but things are changing. I agree with that. What are you finding? What what are the ways that they're, like, wounded and what are the challenges that they're facing as men in 2023?

00;11;53;09 - 00;11;59;09
Speaker 2
That's an interesting one, because, you know, because I think the I think the.

00;11;59;09 - 00;12;25;20
Speaker 3
Positioning that I've put myself in has is having me attract a certain type of people in a certain context. So I feel like I'm I'm positioning myself as someone who's offering a little bit more complexity. I'm not offering you know, I've been lately I've been positioning myself. As for those for those evolving beyond the fantasy, it's kind of like one of the positioning statements I've been using.

00;12;26;01 - 00;12;26;16
Speaker 2
And.

00;12;26;24 - 00;12;27;13
Speaker 3
I'm like.

00;12;27;25 - 00;12;28;09
Speaker 2
Kind of.

00;12;28;29 - 00;12;30;20
Speaker 3
Offering a rhetoric that is.

00;12;31;12 - 00;12;34;05
Speaker 2
You know, not composed.

00;12;34;05 - 00;12;39;16
Speaker 3
Of soulmate, spiritual, twin flame, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff and has a more pragmatic.

00;12;39;16 - 00;12;40;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And has a.

00;12;40;29 - 00;12;48;06
Speaker 3
More pragmatic nature to it. But I'm like trying to not lose the spiritual essence of it at the same time, which is a fine balance to to play with.

00;12;48;20 - 00;13;07;02
Speaker 2
And, you know, I'm honestly, I'm finding the men who come like if I reflect on them, you know, they're carrying it's an interesting question because I'm like, I'm I'm feeling more the earnestness.

00;13;07;02 - 00;13;12;24
Speaker 3
And the eagerness than I am the wounds, which is not something I would have expected a while ago. Yeah, I'm feeling the.

00;13;13;03 - 00;13;16;02
Speaker 2
That like there's a hunger. A hunger to learn.

00;13;16;02 - 00;13;26;18
Speaker 3
And grow and to understand. And it's like it's almost like there's a sense that women have some magical language. And then these men are just like, I want to understand what the hell this is.

00;13;27;05 - 00;13;29;00
Speaker 2
And embody it.

00;13;29;00 - 00;13;29;11
Speaker 3
You know?

00;13;29;11 - 00;13;30;13
Speaker 2
And there's like.

00;13;31;02 - 00;13;42;12
Speaker 1
So is that their main yearning you find to be able to parse out what is happening in there in the woman's experience or in the feminine experience?

00;13;42;12 - 00;13;46;08
Speaker 2
What I would have said a while ago. Yes, but but no, I would say there's.

00;13;47;04 - 00;14;11;25
Speaker 3
You know, and I'm putting I'm putting words out based on what I said. I don't have direct statements or quotes. And these are these are interesting questions and I really like them. And I'm curious about your experience with the menu work with too. And then we can we can compare. I don't I would have said, you know, because my orientation has been like, how do I figure out how to relate to women that span the personal development journey that I've been on?

00;14;11;25 - 00;14;13;15
Speaker 3
And I think for some people that's true.

00;14;14;09 - 00;14;16;14
Speaker 2
But I think I actually seem.

00;14;16;14 - 00;14;23;21
Speaker 3
To feel like this more intrinsic, self-motivated, like it's like I just want to grow because I want to grow, you know, like, I feel like that's that's becoming louder.

00;14;23;21 - 00;14;27;22
Speaker 2
It's like there's an imperative, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I.

00;14;27;22 - 00;14;32;14
Speaker 3
That's what I feel a sense of. Like there's an imperative desire to grow because it makes sense.

00;14;33;01 - 00;14;33;11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;14;33;16 - 00;14;43;07
Speaker 3
It's one of the things that makes sense. And they might not even be a, a cognitive, rational understanding of why it makes sense, but it makes sense that I should grow, you know. Right.

00;14;43;25 - 00;15;05;16
Speaker 1
And so then the crucible that you happen to, to teach and be a steward of in a way, it just happens to be that the place where they have chosen to do their work. But it's not so much that it's all about women and sex and intimacy. They just want to grow within any kind of crucible. Is that how you're experiencing it or.

00;15;06;07 - 00;15;12;19
Speaker 2
Well, so so that's an interesting question because the courses that I've done.

00;15;12;19 - 00;15;44;18
Speaker 3
Up until now, I'm only now directly starting to directly I've only now done my very first workshop that has been directly focused on, you know, romantic sexual intimacy. Until then, it has been stuff that is actually more generic because I've actually been attempting to put down, you know, there's a there's a strategy what to what I'm doing. I'm like, I've been trying to put down four foundational building blocks for this intimacy and the foundational build among a generic meaning that, you know, authentic relating.

00;15;45;10 - 00;15;45;29
Speaker 2
Is a skill.

00;15;45;29 - 00;15;47;00
Speaker 3
Set that applies.

00;15;47;01 - 00;15;48;13
Speaker 2
As equally.

00;15;48;13 - 00;16;06;15
Speaker 3
Valid to romantic relationships as it does family or work or friendships it doesn't. The same skillset applies across the board, you know, and you can you can learn and it doesn't you can go through the avenue of romantic relationships, but it's the same thing. You just kind of tweaking the language a little bit and adding sex and romance into the mix, you know?

00;16;06;23 - 00;16;23;17
Speaker 3
But other than that, it's kind of the same and then I've taught courses on nervous system regulation from the and one of the premises that I offer is it's like if you're going to have a relationship, you have to learn how to regulate your nervous system. If you're going to heal your attachment wounds, which is how you're going to have a relationship that's going to last without destroying yourself.

00;16;23;25 - 00;16;40;25
Speaker 3
You have to learn to regulate your nervous system and master it. But again, it's generic. You know, the trick is you receive at work from your boss disapproving of what you've what you do is going to be the same thing that will activate you when your partner disapproves of what you do. You know, it's like the same activations sequence, you know, and there's same with boundaries.

00;16;40;25 - 00;16;42;21
Speaker 3
So I'm only now starting to.

00;16;43;02 - 00;16;44;02
Speaker 2
Directly.

00;16;44;10 - 00;16;57;07
Speaker 3
Present intimacy, you know, and that's what this year is about. This year and the next year, like I've kind of been more generic. And this year, in the next year I'm moving into actually now I'm taking a more direct stand for I'm promoting intimacy.

00;16;57;07 - 00;16;58;11
Speaker 2
But the.

00;16;58;11 - 00;17;10;26
Speaker 3
Marketing has been directed towards that. So I've had people, a lot of people coming from that angle. So I would say most people are coming from that angle, but I can't say that it's only about women.

00;17;11;18 - 00;17;13;23
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;17;14;02 - 00;17;51;25
Speaker 1
I'd love to linger a little bit on the topic of the nervous system. Hmm. I see that there is a general increase in awareness of the importance of addressing this. There's a lot of people talking about it. I talk about it, and within my own work, one of the concepts that I have is to clear the chalice, which is you have all of this energy and emotion that's not necessarily even yours, but you just happen to be a vessel that carries them around and without clearing them out, you just become this amalgamation of every, every other person's, you know, deposits in your life and you completely lose access to who you are and where you're

00;17;51;25 - 00;18;23;08
Speaker 1
going. And I think a lot of the time where and I've been working with men for almost a decade, and I think emotional intensity is the thing that takes a lot of us out of the game. And it's certainly true for me as well, is like that is the thing that gets me up in my head. So if there's a lot of intense intensity in the in the relational space, it's is like, you know, the classical way that we men respond to something like that.

00;18;23;12 - 00;18;26;02
Speaker 1
That is we dissociate into logic and reason.

00;18;26;18 - 00;18;27;14
Speaker 2
Right? Yes.

00;18;28;04 - 00;18;59;28
Speaker 1
But there is a way and this is, of course, the sort of the classic trope like the David data, you know, be the rock in the storm and all of that. We've heard it before. There's something here that whether you're some sort of stoic man that is completely like welded shut, you know, there's just, you know, happening or you're just this flow boy that was just like, you know, this seems to be the same kind of dynamic that I don't know how to be with intensity in my nervous system.

00;18;59;28 - 00;19;31;01
Speaker 1
So I just have different strategies for how to to try and regulate or defend myself against the intensity of my experience. So seeing seeing the men in your work, seeing their nervous systems and the kind of yearnings that they have, what what do you see as important for us in as men to to really further master our way that that would be with this part of our lives.

00;19;32;13 - 00;19;53;22
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's interesting that you talk about the the clearing, the chalice. It's like I have my own my own frame that that speaks to something very similar. You know, I, I tend I've tend to have address it through the lens of psychotherapeutic kind of angle and understanding, you know, dysregulation and the effects on the limbic system and the amygdala.

00;19;53;22 - 00;20;16;21
Speaker 3
And, you know, what, what that actually occurs in us and and I've kind of been defining and thinking of trauma has actually just trapped tension in the body. It's just unprocessed tension in our body that we haven't cleared. You know, and what happens is, you know, obviously then you woman brings some intensity or something happens and you go into a triggered state and you you might dissociate or you go into rage and anger or, you know, whatever reactive pattern.

00;20;16;21 - 00;20;46;28
Speaker 3
And in a recent course, I kind of defined eight different kind of major dysregulation patterns that we might go into. And one of them is definitely the dissociation into the head, The Mentalist, I call it, you know, and then we like defend with our mind. But then, you know, there are others other responses as well. Like I've classically gone into freeze, you know, where I'm actually like sometimes fight but sometimes a lot of phrase where I'm actually like, I kind of collapse inwards and I go and then I've gone into a victim state when getting too much intensity, I curl up into more of a victim state.

00;20;47;16 - 00;20;58;24
Speaker 3
You know, and this is probably in response to a lot of bullying when I was young, you know, and not knowing how to handle aggression, being taught by a Buddhist father anyway, blah, blah, blah, the story doesn't actually matter.

00;20;58;24 - 00;21;01;23
Speaker 2
But it's really interesting because it's like as we as we learn.

00;21;01;23 - 00;21;16;20
Speaker 3
To regulate ourself, you know, and this is why I think of working with our attachment, working with our nervous system, working at that level is actually essential before we can truly enter a crucible. And we can we can truly start to do some of the deeper work because this is the thing that's going to mess this up over and over again.

00;21;16;20 - 00;21;29;09
Speaker 3
This is the thing that's going to take us, take us out and take us into relationships that are consuming energy because we're spending all our time dealing with our fights and our conflicts and everything that's going wrong with no energy to put the rest of our life.

00;21;29;09 - 00;21;30;04
Speaker 2
And, you know.

00;21;30;12 - 00;21;47;05
Speaker 3
You be in a bad if you're in a bad relationship, your life can literally fall apart like literally can fall apart from a bad relationship. So, you know, it's like and that's that's the trauma. That's the the dysregulation in the nervous system. But one of the frames that I've been, you know, it's like it's like.

00;21;49;04 - 00;21;49;20
Speaker 2
Like I'd like.

00;21;49;20 - 00;21;51;07
Speaker 3
To bring an angle in here of.

00;21;51;07 - 00;21;55;27
Speaker 2
Of if where if we're moving to.

00;21;56;20 - 00;22;17;24
Speaker 3
To the the the evolved man or however we want to define the man that we're we're talking about the masculine of the future. And we're talking about that man in the crucible of relationship, which is kind of where my work is right now. It's like my work is relationship. So I'm considering the man or the masculine in the in the context of relationship with a woman is my focus.

00;22;17;24 - 00;22;41;07
Speaker 3
Just because I'm heterosexual, you know, it's like that's that's the world that I know. One of the frames that I've been really enjoying and I've kind of put together is the notion of purity and capacity purity being a feminine principle of romantic sexual relating and capacity being a masculine principle. And capacity is the ability to handle intensity. And this is.

00;22;41;07 - 00;22;42;12
Speaker 2
The this is the.

00;22;42;12 - 00;22;52;02
Speaker 3
David data frame that you talk about, you know, be the pillar or the rock or whatever. And it's, it's in my experience, it.

00;22;52;02 - 00;22;53;12
Speaker 2
Comes post.

00;22;54;05 - 00;22;54;22
Speaker 3
Feeling.

00;22;54;28 - 00;22;55;14
Speaker 2
Post.

00;22;55;14 - 00;22;56;20
Speaker 3
That ability to.

00;22;56;29 - 00;22;57;23
Speaker 2
Experience.

00;22;57;23 - 00;23;17;18
Speaker 3
Emotion, run through that through the body. You know, when men have done enough of their grief work and enough of the crying and enough of their rage work and their anger and their guilt and the shame and the kind of moved a lot, that stuff, so that actually there's enough space in the body to feel stuff. Then we actually start being able to respond in relationship in an entirely different way.

00;23;17;18 - 00;23;21;12
Speaker 3
You know, it's like the first, the first times in my own relationship where I.

00;23;21;23 - 00;23;22;00
Speaker 2
My.

00;23;22;00 - 00;23;48;04
Speaker 3
Woman is spinning, you know, she's something is upset her and she's spinning and she's like gearing up for a fight and she's like, you know, get in. And I just, like, walk over in silence and just hold her in my arms. And she tries to push me away. And I just hold her. And then she, like, cracks and starts crying and then melts into me, you know, it's like that's the kind of feeling because it's and that's only available because I've learned to handle the intensity in my own body.

00;23;48;04 - 00;23;57;03
Speaker 3
That's like cycle. I can now actually move in this way that when data presents it, it's like this concept that's just so far away from like, what be the mountain, like?

00;23;57;03 - 00;24;01;08
Speaker 1
It sounds a bit mythical, like something from Greek mythology or something like that.

00;24;01;24 - 00;24;04;17
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. But, but I'm starting.

00;24;04;17 - 00;24;08;15
Speaker 3
To, like, see that it's, it's real. It's a real way of being. But there's.

00;24;08;15 - 00;24;09;07
Speaker 2
A, there's a.

00;24;09;13 - 00;24;15;25
Speaker 3
There's a set of pragmatic and this is, again, my kind of orientation. There's a set of pragmatic steps that we need to develop to actually get.

00;24;16;08 - 00;24;17;13
Speaker 2
The capacity.

00;24;17;20 - 00;24;17;28
Speaker 3
To do.

00;24;17;28 - 00;24;18;05
Speaker 2
That.

00;24;19;12 - 00;24;31;20
Speaker 1
And so the first step is to really clear out your own stuff, the things that get in the way of feeling yourself. And only when you have the foundation of feeling self, you can actually invite other. That's what you're.

00;24;31;20 - 00;24;37;17
Speaker 2
Saying. And it's both. It's both, it's both. It's like, you know, it's more it's part of it.

00;24;37;17 - 00;24;58;04
Speaker 3
Is clearing out our old stuff, our backlog of unprocessed trauma or tension or whatever part of it is learning to actually regulate our own nervous system or manage our own emotional state. You know, that kind of different when we when we remove the backlog, the regulation becomes easier, you know. Yeah, but learning that's also a principle and then also understanding the reactive patterns.

00;24;58;04 - 00;25;20;22
Speaker 3
Can I, can I have enough self-reflective awareness that I see the way that I react? And I'm like, Oh, I know how I react, which means that I'm able to take witness consciousness. You know, I have I'm able to develop enough witness consciousness that I can see myself. She's getting upset. I can see the the victim or the accuser, all the, you know, the see myself and I can see myself dissociating in the moment.

00;25;20;22 - 00;25;29;01
Speaker 3
I'm like, okay, I can see that happening. Regulate my nervous system. I can make a different choice now and then. I have access to something else. Yeah.

00;25;29;15 - 00;26;03;25
Speaker 1
Yeah. In a moment. I would love to move us towards the more visionary aspect of the conversation, but I want to stay here with you a little bit longer because I think all men are, at least most men have been in the situation that you described, that the relationship actually takes more energy than it than it gives. And this is also something, you know, I work with many men in my own memberships and membership crucibles and and some men are struggling with their sex life.

00;26;03;25 - 00;26;27;08
Speaker 1
Their their life is shut down. It's hard for him to move towards her because she just shuts down immediately because she has things that he wants, something from her. But then there's the other side of things where it's not so much a freeze or flight in the relationship, but it's more explosive. And there's just a lot of drama and there may be illness involved and all kinds of things.

00;26;27;27 - 00;26;49;01
Speaker 1
And so I am with these men and I've I've been in relationships like this myself. And there's this constant inquiry. How much work do you accept to do before it's too much?

00;26;50;04 - 00;26;53;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;26;53;09 - 00;26;58;11
Speaker 1
Like, how do how does a man. No one actually not actually it's a no.

00;26;59;12 - 00;27;03;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It's it's a it's a great question.

00;27;03;04 - 00;27;12;01
Speaker 3
I kind of want to like I want to answer that by putting I'm going to answer that by answering a question you didn't ask as well. Okay. I like.

00;27;12;01 - 00;27;17;03
Speaker 2
Yeah, you kind of want to because I what just what I heard you. What what?

00;27;17;03 - 00;27;32;00
Speaker 3
I had heard you. I mean, I didn't hear you. But but a question that I heard and I quite liked that I also want to speak to is like, how much work do you have to do to have this kind of relationship? You know, that's a separate question, but I kind of want to address that. And then environment.

00;27;32;00 - 00;27;34;01
Speaker 2
You know, and then and.

00;27;34;01 - 00;27;39;00
Speaker 3
I heard that I had this voice in my head. It's like, well, do you want to be a virtuoso or do you want to fucking.

00;27;39;11 - 00;27;39;20
Speaker 2
Just.

00;27;40;08 - 00;27;58;21
Speaker 3
Play the ukulele really badly? You know, it's like, what do you do? Do you want to be a master? You know, do you want to be a master of, you know, someone who wants to be able to play and freestyle music, you know, and be taken to that timeless, elegant space, which I imagine if you're really good at music, you get into a jam with other people and you.

00;27;58;21 - 00;28;00;19
Speaker 2
Are you touch.

00;28;00;19 - 00;28;04;00
Speaker 3
God, right? You are in flow state, right.

00;28;05;01 - 00;28;05;16
Speaker 2
To get to.

00;28;05;16 - 00;28;22;03
Speaker 3
That. How much practice does that require? Well, relationship is the same thing. It's it's it's something. And we take it for granted. You just have a relationship and bumble along. But it's actually like personal development. It's a skill. It's like like enlightenment. It's it's a thing that we have to practice, like awakening. It's like.

00;28;22;09 - 00;28;24;13
Speaker 2
It's like anything, any aspect.

00;28;24;13 - 00;28;37;01
Speaker 3
Of life. It's something that we have to practice. And if we want a relationship that is, is elegant, you know, and one of the I love the word elegance and I think of I always think of a snowboarder. When I think of elegance, you think of a pro snowboarder and he like.

00;28;37;10 - 00;28;37;16
Speaker 2
He's.

00;28;37;16 - 00;28;56;09
Speaker 3
Carving down this hill and he hits hits a ramp and he just spins his body and effortlessly lands and keeps going. And I remember when I was young, I used to watch skateboard videos and I'd watch these pro skateboarders just just look like they were dancing. And I'd watch and go, That's easy. I can do that. And I get on my skateboarding, go skating, and I just fall over and I just like, I can't do that.

00;28;56;19 - 00;29;02;11
Speaker 3
And that's elegance to me. It's like when you're when you're so good at something that you make something really complex look easy.

00;29;02;19 - 00;29;03;00
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;29;03;00 - 00;29;06;24
Speaker 3
And it's like we can have elegant relationships, which means that we can have relationships that are.

00;29;06;24 - 00;29;07;18
Speaker 2
So.

00;29;07;18 - 00;29;08;04
Speaker 3
Incredibly.

00;29;08;04 - 00;29;12;02
Speaker 2
Beautiful that people look at them. People look at us.

00;29;12;19 - 00;29;13;18
Speaker 3
You in a relationship and go.

00;29;13;18 - 00;29;17;09
Speaker 2
Wow, how do you how are you? Just so at ease.

00;29;17;09 - 00;29;23;05
Speaker 3
With each other and you make each other thrive once you've made something. A relationship is an incredibly complex process.

00;29;23;18 - 00;29;27;26
Speaker 2
It's too individual and usually quite oppositional.

00;29;27;26 - 00;29;29;17
Speaker 3
Beings in nature.

00;29;29;17 - 00;29;29;29
Speaker 2
Coming.

00;29;29;29 - 00;29;33;03
Speaker 3
Together in a synergistic symphony that creates something new.

00;29;33;12 - 00;29;40;03
Speaker 2
Right? That's complex. That's not an easy thing to do. It's like you have to practice that. So that's kind of one thing.

00;29;40;03 - 00;29;40;22
Speaker 3
And then it's like.

00;29;41;02 - 00;29;43;04
Speaker 2
Well, okay, if, if you want that.

00;29;43;12 - 00;30;05;21
Speaker 3
If you're a man that wants that, if you're a woman as well, if you're a man that wants that and you're like, That's actually what I want. That's the kind of relationship that I want, right? But I'm not experiencing that. I'm experiencing a relationship that is volatile or it's shut down or I'm working really hard to try and have this woman open up or like I'm pouring my I'm doing my work and nothing's changing or it's hurting too much.

00;30;05;21 - 00;30;21;06
Speaker 3
It's like, how much is too much of that? That's a great question. You know, and again, you know, like a kind of a pragmatic way I like to think of. It's like it's almost like put a timer on it, you know, three months or six months and the first question I ask is, is my partner as invested as me?

00;30;21;19 - 00;30;25;23
Speaker 3
You know, if I want to have an evolutionary, elegant relationship, does my partner want it to.

00;30;26;08 - 00;30;27;29
Speaker 2
Like that's that's a that's.

00;30;27;29 - 00;30;29;20
Speaker 3
The most simple question. If it's a no.

00;30;29;21 - 00;30;30;25
Speaker 2
Well, good luck.

00;30;31;06 - 00;30;38;18
Speaker 3
It's it's never going to get where you want it. It's like relationship relationship is a duet. You don't get good at partner dance by dancing with someone who doesn't want to dance.

00;30;38;19 - 00;30;45;11
Speaker 2
You just think you can't do it, you know? So this is. Do they want that? Yeah. This is where a man in.

00;30;46;00 - 00;31;14;22
Speaker 1
That place where a man or a woman has, like an individual awakening or some sort of some sort of life crisis that takes them into an inquiry. We're like, No, actually, I don't think the way that I'm living my life works, and now I want something different. And then the wife or the husband or whoever is just continuing to live their life as if nothing's happened.

00;31;14;22 - 00;31;22;10
Speaker 1
And and that's the place is like, okay, can I enroll this person into this new adventure that I'm on.

00;31;22;27 - 00;31;23;15
Speaker 2
Or.

00;31;24;01 - 00;31;28;06
Speaker 1
Am I going to basically outgrow the relationship contract?

00;31;29;03 - 00;31;29;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00;31;29;29 - 00;31;35;00
Speaker 3
And that's a really hard position to be in, right? It's like you have to ask yourself some really hard questions.

00;31;35;07 - 00;31;35;22
Speaker 2
Especially if.

00;31;35;22 - 00;31;40;14
Speaker 3
You're invested and you have family and kids, you know, it's like, what do you do then? You know?

00;31;40;25 - 00;31;43;06
Speaker 2
And and that's why it's like you have to you have to look.

00;31;43;06 - 00;31;53;03
Speaker 3
At it over a period of time. It's like six months a year. You know, if you've got if you have family and if you've got kids together and you've been together for ten years or something, you've had this awakening process and you're like.

00;31;53;14 - 00;31;54;19
Speaker 2
I want more.

00;31;54;23 - 00;31;59;20
Speaker 3
And my partner doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about. My partner is completely like, What?

00;31;59;20 - 00;32;02;26
Speaker 2
You've gone mad. It's like, okay.

00;32;03;07 - 00;32;04;04
Speaker 1
Can you just stop with.

00;32;04;04 - 00;32;18;16
Speaker 2
Okay, spiritual. Yeah. What is this? Y you know what? You don't need to go to another men's retreat. What the hell is this? Right. It's like to me, it's like, give it some time, you know, like a year, perhaps, and make it very clear.

00;32;18;16 - 00;32;31;00
Speaker 3
To your partner that this isn't a phase. This is something that I want and need for my life. And I want to invite you into it. Not I'm going to shame you if you don't do it, not I'm going to force you, not I'm going to manipulate you, I'm going to invite you. It's like.

00;32;31;10 - 00;32;31;20
Speaker 2
I.

00;32;31;20 - 00;32;38;26
Speaker 3
Want to go deeper. I want to go deeper with you. Will you come with me and extend that invitation? And people are going to take time? You know, if someone hasn't had that.

00;32;39;09 - 00;32;41;14
Speaker 2
It takes a lot. I actually just recently.

00;32;41;14 - 00;32;44;10
Speaker 3
Ran a mini retreat at my place a few weeks.

00;32;44;10 - 00;32;46;05
Speaker 2
Ago and there was a.

00;32;46;05 - 00;32;54;02
Speaker 3
Man who showed up. I just want to tell the story because it's actually an example of this. It's like it's stunning. Actually, I was like just in awe.

00;32;54;25 - 00;32;57;05
Speaker 2
This man had I asked.

00;32;57;05 - 00;33;15;02
Speaker 3
Him at the retreat, you know, how did you find out about this? Because this was the or this was the odd couple out. They didn't fit in. The rest of the people there had done heaps of personal development work. And these people would just not, you know. And I asked him, how did you find out about this? And he's like, I go on Facebook and I I'm part of a sailing club and I read posts in the sailing.

00;33;15;02 - 00;33;15;28
Speaker 2
Group and.

00;33;15;28 - 00;33;21;13
Speaker 3
Your posts and he's like, I don't even understand what you're writing about, but I just can't stop reading them. I don't even.

00;33;21;13 - 00;33;23;00
Speaker 2
Know what you I just read them over.

00;33;23;00 - 00;33;26;02
Speaker 3
And over again. I don't know what you're talking about, but it's like I want to know.

00;33;26;20 - 00;33;28;27
Speaker 2
And so he lives a.

00;33;29;01 - 00;33;33;03
Speaker 3
Few hours away from here and just signed up for this sign up for this retreat.

00;33;34;03 - 00;33;37;15
Speaker 2
And he was telling me that he's he was sitting at his.

00;33;37;15 - 00;33;51;01
Speaker 3
Computer and his his wife was on the phone. So they've had they've had kids. And the kids have grown up and left. And his wife is on the phone with his mum arranging a dinner for the Saturday night where the retreat would be. And she gets off the phone and he's like, I think I want to go to this.

00;33;51;01 - 00;33;53;09
Speaker 3
I don't want to have dinner with my mom, I want to go to this.

00;33;53;25 - 00;33;56;24
Speaker 2
And she's like, Oh, is that is that going to be.

00;33;56;24 - 00;34;01;27
Speaker 3
Something we're going to go to together? And he's like, Yeah, sure, why not?

00;34;01;27 - 00;34;15;18
Speaker 2
And she's like, Okay, I'll come alone. And so she came along and she's she's never done any personal development work, ever. Nothing, right. This guy had like he came to this retreat and he's.

00;34;15;18 - 00;34;34;24
Speaker 3
Obviously in he's in a cracking phase is in that phase where I'm shifting and he had like a meltdown, you know, on day three of the retreat, he he couldn't even come up for the first half and hit my my pot. I'm like sat with him outside and he was wailing and going through some kind of shamanistic process of just like stuff was moving.

00;34;34;24 - 00;34;39;15
Speaker 2
Him and his why his wife's in the room with us and she's having a jolly good.

00;34;39;15 - 00;34;40;01
Speaker 3
Time, you.

00;34;40;01 - 00;34;41;12
Speaker 2
Know. And at the end of the.

00;34;41;12 - 00;34;54;10
Speaker 3
Retreat, it was just a two and a half day retreat. You know, we do a checkout and invite and she and her checkout, what she had biggest takeaway, she's like, I touch some part of me that I didn't even know existed and I'm really excited to explore more.

00;34;55;03 - 00;35;01;22
Speaker 2
You know? And I was like, That's incredible, right? So she didn't know. She didn't know until she had.

00;35;01;22 - 00;35;03;11
Speaker 3
The opportunity to experience it. So if someone.

00;35;03;11 - 00;35;11;19
Speaker 2
Hasn't done any of this work, they don't even know any of this exists. Right? But that doesn't mean that you touch it. And that first.

00;35;11;19 - 00;35;16;12
Speaker 3
Point is beautiful because she hasn't touched the horrible, hard stuff yet, you know?

00;35;16;22 - 00;35;19;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, but that doesn't.

00;35;19;00 - 00;35;38;28
Speaker 3
Mean, you know, so there's an invitation and then. And then. But then. So that's one, one side. And then just the other side is like, say, I'm in a toxic relationship. This is a relationship where I've had an awakening and my partner isn't, you know, it's like, how do I invite them in? It's like, depending on how long you've been together, give it an appropriate time span, a year or a year and a half or two.

00;35;38;28 - 00;35;39;28
Speaker 2
Years that I'm.

00;35;39;28 - 00;35;53;06
Speaker 3
Going to keep doing this work and I'm going to keep inviting them in after that period of time. If that's still just a no, that's when you have the hard contemplation of like, maybe if this is if I'm serious and I want this for my life, maybe this is where we have to part ways.

00;35;53;11 - 00;35;55;01
Speaker 2
And that's okay. You know.

00;35;55;10 - 00;35;57;07
Speaker 3
Relationships outgrow each other. That's so.

00;35;57;07 - 00;35;59;04
Speaker 2
Fine. You know, then the.

00;35;59;04 - 00;36;02;19
Speaker 3
Other side is if it's a toxic relationship and this one is much shorter.

00;36;02;19 - 00;36;03;05
Speaker 2
To share.

00;36;03;15 - 00;36;07;20
Speaker 3
Similarly, I give it a period of time three months, six months, nine months.

00;36;07;20 - 00;36;08;07
Speaker 2
And be like.

00;36;08;27 - 00;36;18;00
Speaker 3
After six months, you know, I'm in this relationship where I really love this person and but we're just fighting and it's just hard and we're just grinding each other. It's wearing at.

00;36;18;00 - 00;36;19;13
Speaker 2
Me after six.

00;36;19;13 - 00;36;25;26
Speaker 3
Months. Is the quality of my life worse or better? And if it's consistently worse, that's that's that's a sign, you.

00;36;25;26 - 00;36;27;03
Speaker 2
Know, if if.

00;36;27;03 - 00;36;47;04
Speaker 3
Six months as a median, you know, the median for that six months, my quality of life has gone down. It's like that's that's time to consider that this is not going to be where you're going to find your grace, maybe longer, if you're really invested nine months or a year. But again, you know, we have to give time and space and then ask those hard questions.

00;36;47;04 - 00;36;49;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;36;51;06 - 00;37;09;12
Speaker 1
I love imagining this couple. It's like they just walked in from the street and just like, Oh, what's going on? Like can we doing and then actually finding a big value from it. Yeah. Good story. I'm glad you share then.

00;37;10;12 - 00;37;12;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, thank you. It's. It's a lovely.

00;37;12;02 - 00;37;18;15
Speaker 3
Story. I was just like, wow, this is this is so fun. They were fun. They were like such a beautiful couple, you know?

00;37;18;25 - 00;37;19;04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;37;19;16 - 00;37;46;06
Speaker 1
I remember I had a we were featured with a retreat we did back in 2009 was the the most badass retreat we ever hosted. And the last one I was because COVID came and everything, but we did this Kings of the North retreat in the Norwegian Mountains, and the men flew in from the whole world. And then one of the big television channels came and made a documentary there.

00;37;46;27 - 00;38;05;06
Speaker 1
And, and we were featured on prime time television to, I guess, half a million people or something like that. And strangely, we only got two requests after that. I was like blown away that we wouldn't get more interest. But what one guy was really interested.

00;38;05;06 - 00;38;06;18
Speaker 2
In this is this.

00;38;06;18 - 00;38;24;05
Speaker 1
Is a story that is leaning a little bit to the more negative end of the spectrum than the one you just shared. But you really wanted to go. But in the end, he's like, No, no, I can't, because my wife just told me that she's going to take away my motorcycle if I come.

00;38;24;05 - 00;38;26;06
Speaker 2
So, so.

00;38;26;29 - 00;38;44;01
Speaker 1
So, so this was a guy that was also just like he was clearly not there and not a very healthy relationship. And there were all kinds of power struggles there, but they were very normal people. And he had felt something there that he really wanted, but he was still locked into a toxic dynamic.

00;38;44;08 - 00;38;45;21
Speaker 2
So she's like, No.

00;38;46;02 - 00;38;48;07
Speaker 1
You're not going to do that. I'll take your bike.

00;38;48;07 - 00;38;48;18
Speaker 2
You know.

00;38;48;29 - 00;38;56;18
Speaker 1
I was just blown away when what when that that came up, like, okay, right. That is probably why you should come.

00;38;56;29 - 00;38;58;26
Speaker 2
But yeah. Fair play. Yes.

00;38;59;29 - 00;39;35;00
Speaker 1
So yeah, we find ourselves in all kinds of while the relationship dynamics but yes there is a way to make them elegant, graceful, to be so harmonious and loving and nurturing and giving that we actually become sources of inspiration for other people around you. US. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a beautiful vision. And I guess as we as we turn our gaze a bit towards the path forward, we're like been a bit India in diagnosis mode.

00;39;35;00 - 00;40;09;21
Speaker 1
Now looking at what's happening right now, there are some positive trends with men and I think there's still this theme that we don't quite know where we're headed. I don't think humanity knows where it's headed, but I think is certainly true for men. And as as as you men are watching this, you're you're contemplating that question with me is like, where are we headed?

00;40;09;21 - 00;40;39;07
Speaker 1
What defines a positive, empowered, thriving life for a man in 2023 and beyond? I think that's that's something that I want to give to you and see where you can. This is, of course, I'm not expecting you to give us like they're the Pearly Gates opening Hallelujah Choir. Everything is sorted out kind of answer. But but but it's worth.

00;40;39;07 - 00;40;42;22
Speaker 1
It's worth going there, I think. So what do you see? Yeah, I.

00;40;42;22 - 00;40;46;21
Speaker 2
Mean, one of the big one of the big.

00;40;46;21 - 00;40;52;24
Speaker 3
Frames that I hold, you know, that that's going to contextualize. The answer that I give is I honestly believe and I've.

00;40;52;25 - 00;40;55;00
Speaker 2
Thought this for so this.

00;40;55;00 - 00;41;04;22
Speaker 3
For probably around 15 years ago, this this idea started formulating. And I've seen more and more evidence, you know, in in different places than I ever expected I would.

00;41;05;13 - 00;41;06;18
Speaker 2
Is that I actually.

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;16;05
Speaker 3
Believe we're heading for the next bifurcation in the human species, you know, and a bifurcation is an evolutionary split where where takes two evolutionary paths.

00;41;16;27 - 00;41;19;08
Speaker 2
And this is, you know, and there's there's.

00;41;19;08 - 00;41;27;12
Speaker 3
No reason why this wouldn't happen. This is what's happened in all of evolutionary history for every animal on the damn planet has gone through.

00;41;27;20 - 00;41;27;24
Speaker 2
A.

00;41;27;24 - 00;42;06;11
Speaker 3
Sequence. You know, we have these for anyone who remembers doing evolutionary biology, when you look at, you know, the way that, you know, we have these branching, phyla trees that show how species developed from brute ancestors. And there's all these different pathways that they develop through to occupy different niches in the environment, you know, and we're in this interesting place because where we're a conscious species and we're not so much like the, the, the biological adaptations that we're encountering, largely ones that are conforming to a manmade environment rather than the pressures of a been of a natural environment.

00;42;06;11 - 00;42;12;12
Speaker 3
So I think the bifurcation will come in, in in an in a different way. And I actually think that.

00;42;13;22 - 00;42;14;08
Speaker 2
I think we're.

00;42;14;12 - 00;42;26;16
Speaker 3
We're heading towards a bifurcation where 111 branch is actually heading into what I think of as more density. It's heading into virtual reality. It's heading into a high powered world it's heading into.

00;42;26;29 - 00;42;27;26
Speaker 2
You know, we see.

00;42;27;26 - 00;42;32;07
Speaker 3
This trend. For example, I was watching this video the other day of like filters.

00;42;32;16 - 00;42;32;27
Speaker 2
You know.

00;42;33;12 - 00;42;40;18
Speaker 3
Instagram, ticktock, filters that people using. And there there are women now who go to plastic surgeons and say, please make me look like the filter.

00;42;41;01 - 00;42;43;15
Speaker 2
Right. It's very easy to go.

00;42;43;15 - 00;42;53;28
Speaker 3
Well, when you have a virtual reality where you can look like that filter all the time, would you choose to be there if that's kind of where your value sits inside of you?

00;42;54;07 - 00;42;55;00
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah.

00;42;55;00 - 00;42;58;21
Speaker 3
And I do think that, you know, and they're the first inklings of.

00;42;59;25 - 00;43;00;17
Speaker 2
Babies.

00;43;00;17 - 00;43;07;26
Speaker 3
That can be grow in utero, you know, out of the out of out of the womb. You know, this is this is coming, right? They can do this. And so.

00;43;08;10 - 00;43;08;25
Speaker 2
There's no.

00;43;08;25 - 00;43;32;07
Speaker 3
Reason to extrapolate why we wouldn't have, you know, some version of The Matrix, a reality where there's a virtual reality or an augmented reality that that humanity gets plugged into and only sees the designed, constructed nature, which I you know, in some ways, I think we're already in a matrix. But, you know, to go a deeper level, you know, it's like the like inception to go another layer down into the dream, right?

00;43;32;07 - 00;43;36;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. And then I that there is a strong.

00;43;36;19 - 00;43;59;07
Speaker 3
Yearning and hunger in a lot of people in the world for something different. There is a yearning for tribe, for community, for nature, for communing with nature. And there are movements towards that. There are you know, I read recently an article by Charles Eisenstein, who has decided to invest in an eco village, an eco village that is being constructed in Costa Rica.

00;43;59;07 - 00;44;17;10
Speaker 3
Really elaborate. And it was putting a call out for people like Common Living Community. And I know other people around the world who are starting to go, we're going to put community on the land and we're going to try and do this community based living that that is a dream, that is a yearning, that is sitting inside of so many hearts, like so many people that I speak to have the same thing.

00;44;17;10 - 00;44;39;26
Speaker 3
You know, it often shows up as some kind of like, I want to get land and have a retreat center here. And that's often how it manifests. But I think that that that's actually the yearning to be on the land, in community, on in tribe, you know, and I think the bifurcation is one bifurcation is where we actually go into a technologically dominated world, you know, where we actually sit inside of it, you know, and it constructs the world for us.

00;44;39;26 - 00;44;53;07
Speaker 3
And another one is where we actually take more ownership over our role in the world, where I would imagine we wouldn't use, you know, technology. I can imagine 3D printers being an incredible asset, you know, for Toolmaking in a.

00;44;53;19 - 00;44;53;25
Speaker 2
In.

00;44;53;25 - 00;45;01;27
Speaker 3
A, in a, in a community that's moving towards agrarian roots, but without, you know, throwing everything out without going Amish style, right?

00;45;01;29 - 00;45;02;07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;45;02;19 - 00;45;05;23
Speaker 3
3D printers and technology and all that kind of stuff.

00;45;07;00 - 00;45;08;14
Speaker 2
So I think that that split.

00;45;08;14 - 00;45;18;22
Speaker 3
Is occurring, you know, and obviously I'm I'm biased and interested in being on the land, being in community being and tribe. And so I was just setting that up because I think that.

00;45;20;00 - 00;45;20;16
Speaker 2
If that's.

00;45;20;16 - 00;45;30;20
Speaker 3
The direction that we're heading or that's the direction that I want to head and that's the direction that I make up, you know, from what I know that we've touched that your heading as well and but.

00;45;30;20 - 00;45;34;06
Speaker 1
For sure, I mean we live on a farm now and the countryside so.

00;45;34;06 - 00;45;36;12
Speaker 2
I think yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00;45;36;15 - 00;45;49;10
Speaker 3
Right. And I imagine a lot of the people who are drawn to listening to this are either heading that way or kind of like that that's sitting inside as an itch because I think that is the tail off. I think that is what's pulling us now. There is a.

00;45;49;10 - 00;45;52;01
Speaker 2
Need to you know.

00;45;53;05 - 00;45;58;26
Speaker 3
I said I wouldn't do this, but I'm going to try it in a spiral. Dynamics, you know, context for a moment.

00;45;59;29 - 00;46;00;17
Speaker 2
Doesn't matter.

00;46;00;17 - 00;46;19;27
Speaker 3
Anyone who wants to look up spiral dynamics and levels of consciousness, turquoise consciousness, turquoise consciousness being a stage of consciousness that is actually like a higher octave of the tribe, you know, it's a tribe. 2.0 is one way that I envision, you know, we're actually moving I believe we're moving towards tribal culture again. But it's a higher octave.

00;46;19;27 - 00;46;34;13
Speaker 3
It's no longer tribal culture that's rooted in how do we survive in a challenging and hostile physical environment, which is where the original tribes came from. It's like, how do we thrive in an integrated, you know, collaborative.

00;46;34;17 - 00;46;35;27
Speaker 2
Form where we.

00;46;35;27 - 00;46;40;14
Speaker 3
Balance, you know? And I think this is critical that that the original tribe didn't have.

00;46;40;23 - 00;46;40;28
Speaker 2
Where.

00;46;40;28 - 00;46;45;18
Speaker 3
We balanced the sovereignty of the individual and the collective.

00;46;45;27 - 00;46;46;13
Speaker 2
How do we.

00;46;46;13 - 00;46;52;18
Speaker 3
Actually resolve the tension between the individual and the collective, I think is probably one of the biggest problems we're going to face.

00;46;53;03 - 00;46;57;21
Speaker 1
I mean, this has been this has been the big theme in the COVID era.

00;46;58;23 - 00;47;00;04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00;47;00;04 - 00;47;08;17
Speaker 1
And the majority has agreed to surrender their sovereignty for for the supposed safety of the collective.

00;47;09;08 - 00;47;10;26
Speaker 3
Exactly. Exactly.

00;47;11;01 - 00;47;17;23
Speaker 2
And and and so I.

00;47;18;11 - 00;47;51;21
Speaker 3
Any hypothesis I make about masculinity sits in sits inside of that notion, you know, and and taking the the relational lens that I've been taking for this particular moment sits inside of a crucible of relationship. So, you know, I get fascinated by relationship because it's almost like a whole another introducing another complex term, a whole on being something that is simultaneously a whole and a part, you know, an individual is a whole on, you know, I'm I'm whole unto myself, but I'm also I'm talking about social hall ons here.

00;47;51;21 - 00;48;02;00
Speaker 3
I'm also part of, you know, if I'm in a relationship, I'm a whole individual self and I'm part of this relationship entity that is me and my partner, you know, and we create a third we create.

00;48;03;00 - 00;48;03;05
Speaker 2
To.

00;48;03;06 - 00;48;07;05
Speaker 3
To come together and then this three one plus one equals three when it comes to relationship.

00;48;07;12 - 00;48;09;22
Speaker 2
You know, and so, so there's a.

00;48;09;22 - 00;48;30;08
Speaker 3
Third entity and that's the first layer of social whole on, right? And that is actually I believe the relationship is the pillar of the tribe because the relationship is where family comes out of. You know, if you look at you look at successful communities, they usually family oriented doesn't I imagine it's collective the family. So you know now we have one family who is somewhat integrated, who is generative.

00;48;30;08 - 00;48;39;22
Speaker 3
We have a couple that where the man and the woman managed to work together enough to create and generate more energy than they consume. I mean, they're thriving and you get that couple.

00;48;40;10 - 00;48;41;04
Speaker 2
To hang out with.

00;48;41;26 - 00;48;48;19
Speaker 3
Other couples. You know, now you get a bunch of couples and some singles and, you know, it's not all everyone. You must be in a couple or whatever.

00;48;48;27 - 00;48;49;08
Speaker 2
But I do.

00;48;49;08 - 00;49;00;27
Speaker 3
Think that there's a there's a pillar structure when you have a couple and they're in a crucible and they have a, you know, not necessarily they don't have to be monogamous, can do whatever you want, but it's like they have an agreement towards each other.

00;49;01;13 - 00;49;12;15
Speaker 2
You have a foundational point of which this stability. And I think when you have a number of these gathered together, we start to have community.

00;49;12;24 - 00;49;13;10
Speaker 3
We start to.

00;49;13;10 - 00;49;14;16
Speaker 2
Have enough.

00;49;14;16 - 00;49;24;20
Speaker 3
For family units to occur, which means the next generation has space to interact and breed together and create the next generation right? So we have this unfolding. So man becomes.

00;49;25;02 - 00;49;25;22
Speaker 2
Important.

00;49;25;22 - 00;49;34;03
Speaker 3
Inside of the relationship. And then there's also a next layer which is important inside of the tribe, you know, and that's an interesting thing to contemplate. Yeah, let's.

00;49;34;09 - 00;49;48;17
Speaker 1
Let's look at that a little. I mean, there's a vision for for more community, more tribe. But do you see a unique gendered expression for the man's role in this future vision?

00;49;48;17 - 00;49;53;12
Speaker 2
So I think that developmentally.

00;49;54;00 - 00;49;56;17
Speaker 3
When we become more integral, integrated.

00;49;57;17 - 00;50;00;12
Speaker 2
We become like the the.

00;50;01;06 - 00;50;19;05
Speaker 3
The gender position becomes fluid, but not in the way that people describe gender fluidity. The way that people describe gender fluidity and post postmodernism is usually like, I don't want to ascribe to any gender. And so I'm going to like kind of be an amorphous kind of asexual.

00;50;19;16 - 00;50;22;00
Speaker 2
You know, blob of.

00;50;22;11 - 00;50;47;14
Speaker 3
Non defining characteristics, right? Kind of neutral, right. You know, this is my fluidity. I'm going to kind of really be any of it. I'm not really going to take a claim. I think as we move to a more integral stage, we have a gender fluidity, which means that I can be any of it. You know, I can I can feel as deeply as a woman if I need to, and I can be as present as a man, you know, as in the deep masculine.

00;50;47;22 - 00;50;50;06
Speaker 3
And we have access to the spectrum, which means I understand.

00;50;50;06 - 00;50;53;06
Speaker 2
WOMAN You know, if I, if I've worked with.

00;50;53;06 - 00;50;56;03
Speaker 3
My own in a feminine, I've learned how to feel and everything. Now I understand.

00;50;56;03 - 00;50;56;29
Speaker 2
WOMAN Right.

00;50;57;10 - 00;50;58;13
Speaker 3
Which means that I can now.

00;50;58;13 - 00;51;01;29
Speaker 2
Choose to hold.

00;51;02;10 - 00;51;05;03
Speaker 3
Whatever traits are comfortable. And I think that.

00;51;06;07 - 00;51;06;27
Speaker 2
Masculine.

00;51;06;27 - 00;51;11;00
Speaker 3
Feminine no longer becomes a, you know, in this like so much claim.

00;51;11;00 - 00;51;12;16
Speaker 2
And this is, this is really interesting.

00;51;12;16 - 00;51;25;09
Speaker 3
In the postmodernism because they're not quite integral in thinking, they're not quite integrate in their thinking, but they have a lot the roots of a lot of really important concepts I think. Right. And the question, the gender binary right. And I think it's.

00;51;25;12 - 00;51;26;27
Speaker 2
Because because it's.

00;51;26;27 - 00;51;28;00
Speaker 3
It's not a binary.

00;51;28;00 - 00;51;31;25
Speaker 2
Right. But it becomes an explosion of expression.

00;51;32;03 - 00;51;33;27
Speaker 3
You know, it becomes an explosion of.

00;51;35;09 - 00;51;40;19
Speaker 2
Unique sets of characteristics. And I'm I inside.

00;51;40;19 - 00;51;49;28
Speaker 3
Of a man body. So I'm going to mostly exhibit masculine characteristics because I run on testosterone. And testosterone is the energy of the mass. Yeah.

00;51;49;28 - 00;51;53;22
Speaker 1
So the biology certainly has a has name without doubt.

00;51;53;22 - 00;51;55;16
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah, without doubt.

00;51;55;16 - 00;52;00;02
Speaker 2
But then I have, you know, because I'm a I'm a complex.

00;52;00;02 - 00;52;20;01
Speaker 3
Being, I have access to a whole host of different ways of being. So I have, you know, we have this explosion of of characteristics and qualities and we have a spectrum, not a binary a spectrum, but not a spectrum necessarily. In the same way it's might be like, you know, I'm masculine oriented, but I feel really deeply in certain ways.

00;52;20;01 - 00;52;26;12
Speaker 3
But it doesn't mean that I start acting like a woman, you know? For example.

00;52;26;12 - 00;52;31;24
Speaker 2
So I think that and if we're moving.

00;52;31;24 - 00;52;32;25
Speaker 3
Into this kind of like.

00;52;33;07 - 00;52;33;24
Speaker 2
Tribal.

00;52;33;24 - 00;52;38;19
Speaker 3
Or integral tribe to point on a culture, we're going to we're going to see.

00;52;39;05 - 00;52;39;22
Speaker 2
Space.

00;52;39;22 - 00;52;41;07
Speaker 3
For the individual to like.

00;52;42;19 - 00;52;43;20
Speaker 2
The summarizing.

00;52;43;20 - 00;52;50;12
Speaker 3
Statement that I like to think of it as is. I think it's a tribe. The tribe put to point to is a collective of highly individuated beings.

00;52;50;25 - 00;52;52;03
Speaker 2
You know, that's there that's a.

00;52;52;03 - 00;53;11;06
Speaker 3
Sentence that summarizes that tension. We're deeply individuated. Like, I'm so individuated to the fact that I'm just a unique expression of Damian, one of a kind in my unique masculine expression, my unique set of gifts, my unique set of interests. There is no other piece like me in the tribe. You know, we don't have a culture that allows this.

00;53;11;06 - 00;53;15;18
Speaker 3
You're defined by your job role, for example.

00;53;15;18 - 00;53;15;29
Speaker 2
And so.

00;53;15;29 - 00;53;28;22
Speaker 3
Everyone's like that, and yet we function as a collective. So that's really unique and we don't have models of that in nature, right? Because the answers, the aren't model, which is a really deeply collective model, is homogenous. There's a lot of homogeneity there.

00;53;28;28 - 00;53;30;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. Yeah.

00;53;31;03 - 00;53;34;04
Speaker 1
And it it's a paradigm shift for sure.

00;53;34;04 - 00;53;40;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. You know, and it's, it's a really complex, it becomes really like that is a complex thing to be able to hold.

00;53;40;29 - 00;53;41;29
Speaker 2
You're so radically.

00;53;41;29 - 00;53;46;08
Speaker 3
Different than me and you and you occupy an entirely different role inside of the tribe than I do.

00;53;46;16 - 00;53;49;07
Speaker 2
And yet your contribution.

00;53;50;02 - 00;54;04;08
Speaker 3
To the tribe, to the thing, the organism that we all exist inside, all of it serves me. It's almost like the relationship becomes less about me to you. It's like me to the tribe and the tribe to me, you know, that's our relationship. It's vertical versus horizontal and transaction.

00;54;04;08 - 00;54;06;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;54;07;03 - 00;54;09;23
Speaker 3
And so you go for it. And if.

00;54;11;15 - 00;54;14;25
Speaker 1
You had, you were on a roll like you finish it up.

00;54;16;09 - 00;54;20;25
Speaker 2
So when we have that ability to hold.

00;54;21;11 - 00;54;33;22
Speaker 3
Individuation so deeply and reverently, you know that I imagine a deep reverence for the unique essence that each being holds, you know, reverence for each unique beings per personal.

00;54;35;12 - 00;54;36;15
Speaker 2
Inspirationally.

00;54;36;15 - 00;54;39;11
Speaker 3
Guided contribution to the whole.

00;54;40;09 - 00;54;40;18
Speaker 2
You know.

00;54;41;00 - 00;54;55;10
Speaker 3
Bit utopian and idealistic. But I've started to have enough of a taste in relationship of what's possible to know, like even a speculative hypothesis. I believe that, you know, and it's going to have all its pitfalls and problems. I do believe that there's you know, there's something there. You know, I.

00;54;55;10 - 00;55;20;04
Speaker 1
Think we have been sort of clumsily trying to move into this paradigm and frame for for a while, and that there is this yearning, I think, deep in like this mythic yearning for something akin to a golden age that that is quite similar in expression to what you're talking about. So it's like we're we're remembering the future.

00;55;21;03 - 00;55;21;11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;55;21;14 - 00;55;29;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I love that phrase because I feel like that's like it's like the future sends echoes back in time to touch us so that we know where to go.

00;55;30;05 - 00;56;11;18
Speaker 1
Right? Right. And that at the same time, there is this there is this gravitational pull into the status quo. Like, for instance, people love working with change edge and changing organization and maybe trying to implement in self-organizing organizational structures and things like that, including myself as an entrepreneur with a team, you know, it's it's not necessarily easy and especially since so many of the whole loans inside of that greater holding of the organization, so many of the people are kind of like following orders.

00;56;11;18 - 00;56;45;17
Speaker 1
And when you give them the option to actually become sovereign within the organization, that's a burden more than a freedom. Okay. So, so it's like we're on the cusp of a critical mass feeling that to be more of a freedom and that we have enough structures, enough tried and proven structures to facilitated, and enough leaders that also has enough internalized trust and and surrender.

00;56;45;17 - 00;56;56;29
Speaker 1
And, you know, especially when you're running a small organization like I have been doing, it's not necessarily easy to give away my baby to be cultivated by somebody who didn't actually nurse it, you know?

00;56;57;14 - 00;56;58;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;56;58;12 - 00;57;21;09
Speaker 1
So it's it's a complex it's a complex landscape we find ourselves in as we're, like, leaning in to this and then wondering, is it just for a poetic, like, dream or can it actually be like this? I think there's. Yeah, because it sounds like poetry when you speak about it, right?

00;57;21;28 - 00;57;22;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;57;22;21 - 00;57;24;17
Speaker 3
And it feels like it too, you know, and it's.

00;57;24;17 - 00;57;25;03
Speaker 2
Like and.

00;57;25;03 - 00;57;31;05
Speaker 3
That's why I think I'm so fascinated by 1 to 1 relationship, romantic relationship, because it's like, it's kind of like if I can do it there.

00;57;31;20 - 00;57;33;12
Speaker 2
Okay, all it is, is, is.

00;57;33;13 - 00;57;37;06
Speaker 3
Extrapolating the essence of that and now expanding it to add more complex. Right.

00;57;37;17 - 00;57;40;11
Speaker 1
So you would need to nail it there first. Like you need to have.

00;57;41;26 - 00;57;43;04
Speaker 2
I mean, I think it's a good.

00;57;43;04 - 00;57;59;09
Speaker 3
Testing ground. I don't think it's absolutely necessary. You know, and I do think that there are differences. But it it does give me does give me a good sense. And I like that you you brought up the organization because I think the organization is the modern day tribe. You know, it is actually a tribe. Right. You know, businesses are tribes, right.

00;57;59;09 - 00;58;00;16
Speaker 2
They're just the tribes.

00;58;00;16 - 00;58;09;03
Speaker 3
That compete in the marketplace. I mean, original tribes competed for resources. They also compete for resources. They're just financial ones, you know, and they compete with other tribes.

00;58;09;03 - 00;58;09;24
Speaker 2
And so.

00;58;11;11 - 00;58;16;11
Speaker 3
Looking at evolving the structure of the of a of an organization, you know.

00;58;16;11 - 00;58;16;29
Speaker 2
Is.

00;58;17;15 - 00;58;19;24
Speaker 3
Is one way to start testing the.

00;58;20;03 - 00;58;20;20
Speaker 2
The level of.

00;58;20;20 - 00;58;29;04
Speaker 3
Development that's required in order to hold these higher order structures. And it's like the individuals inside need to hold a certain level of development. And then.

00;58;29;04 - 00;58;29;26
Speaker 2
The the.

00;58;29;26 - 00;58;41;20
Speaker 3
Structure of the organism needs to be able to carry that to, you know, and like you said, it's a complex thing. It's not an easy it's not an easy task. You know, it's like it's we're not the only ones looking at this. There are lots of people.

00;58;42;08 - 00;58;42;17
Speaker 2
Who are.

00;58;42;17 - 00;58;59;14
Speaker 3
Fascinated by this inquiry and are looking into how do we develop these things, you know? And it's like the organization is one landscape of which we can explore that and then draw that into. And there are people exploring it in the tribal landscape, on the community, in the land, in that kind of form as well. And it's there's going to be overlap between the two.

00;58;59;14 - 00;59;10;22
Speaker 3
And I actually think more than likely the community is going to need some kind of representative organizational structure to continue to compete in the global marketplace as it also supports trends.

00;59;10;25 - 00;59;14;03
Speaker 2
We're getting pragmatic. Yeah, yeah, yes.

00;59;14;03 - 00;59;17;17
Speaker 1
Foolish. The thing. Yeah, yeah. Good.

00;59;19;01 - 00;59;22;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you for that. I think there was just one.

00;59;22;18 - 00;59;33;26
Speaker 3
There was one one little thought that I wanted to finish on there. So it's like the question was, where two men sit when two men as men sit inside of that? And that's kind of like we're building this this kind of tapestry of what it looks like.

00;59;34;09 - 00;59;36;00
Speaker 2
And so it was like if we have a.

00;59;36;00 - 00;59;39;27
Speaker 3
Collective of highly individuated beings, all the beings, the men and the women.

00;59;40;04 - 00;59;43;16
Speaker 2
You know, all have, you know, equal.

00;59;43;29 - 00;59;55;13
Speaker 3
Equal opportunity, really. But it's beyond equal opportunity. The notion of equal opportunity doesn't it's like when it's embodied in a collective, the idea of equal opportunity becomes a bit ludicrous. It's like, of course, like, duh, like, why wouldn't you have.

00;59;55;13 - 00;59;57;12
Speaker 2
That right then?

00;59;57;12 - 01;00;01;00
Speaker 3
I think we will find that there are certain.

01;00;04;05 - 01;00;06;16
Speaker 2
I'm I'm hesitant to say like I almost.

01;00;06;16 - 01;00;24;19
Speaker 3
Wanted to say, there are certain places where men would be drawn to represent themselves and women would be. But I'm in of the actual function of the of the organism. I don't even know if we would find that. I think we would find people find that position that just suits them as a unique individual being. I imagine that ritual is going to be important.

01;00;24;19 - 01;00;28;03
Speaker 3
I do imagine that, you know, we will need to bring back.

01;00;29;01 - 01;00;29;19
Speaker 2
The.

01;00;29;21 - 01;00;40;14
Speaker 3
The kind of experience of of the transition from boyhood into teenage into adulthood. Like these kind of processes are going to be very important. But I also imagine.

01;00;40;14 - 01;00;42;05
Speaker 2
That the.

01;00;42;19 - 01;00;46;28
Speaker 3
There will be a fluidity to that landscape, to that environment.

01;00;47;09 - 01;00;47;19
Speaker 2
That's.

01;00;47;19 - 01;00;54;27
Speaker 3
Probably beyond our ability to fully conceive right now. You know, that the level of freedom and it's like and that's again the postmodernism.

01;00;55;03 - 01;00;56;22
Speaker 2
Where they were.

01;00;56;22 - 01;01;05;26
Speaker 3
I feel like this kind of the screen name, the postmodern movement, you know, the what we're seeing in that landscape, social activism and trans rights and all of that stuff.

01;01;06;13 - 01;01;12;28
Speaker 2
What they get right is the the right to discover your.

01;01;12;28 - 01;01;28;29
Speaker 3
Own expression is really valuable. And that there's, there's a freedom about that. But where they get it wrong is there's there's almost an imposition of what that's going to look like. So It's like if.

01;01;28;29 - 01;01;29;29
Speaker 2
You if you actually.

01;01;29;29 - 01;01;44;15
Speaker 3
Take away the imposition and actually allow the freedom within. Yeah, exactly. You allow the freedom within the structure of like and given your biologic biology, given your place in inside of masculine feminine dynamics and the fact that.

01;01;44;15 - 01;01;46;03
Speaker 2
That a man and.

01;01;46;03 - 01;02;21;05
Speaker 3
A woman to relate need of masculine feminine polarity, otherwise you have a neutral relationship with no sexuality or romance with Spock and that you just don't. Right? And when you apply masculine feminine polarity to romantic relationships, you get rocket fuel, you get something that actually creates incredible generative potential. Yeah. It's like once you understand that the male role inside that and then, you know, the male the way that the masculine and feminine lead, you know, male leadership is very outward, linear, structured, directed female leadership is very subtle behind the scenes, interwoven, non-rational, non-linear.

01;02;21;14 - 01;02;22;24
Speaker 2
All right. And you kind of.

01;02;23;07 - 01;02;32;21
Speaker 3
Bringing the left and right hemispheres together like that. And you go recognizing that actually the left and right hemisphere work together. You don't just go, let's just shove them together and make one thing.

01;02;32;29 - 01;02;35;25
Speaker 2
You know. Then I.

01;02;35;25 - 01;02;37;15
Speaker 3
Think we start to get a sense of like.

01;02;38;05 - 01;02;39;13
Speaker 2
A it's like a free.

01;02;39;13 - 01;02;42;16
Speaker 3
Expression to discover who we are as men within the context.

01;02;42;16 - 01;02;44;12
Speaker 2
Of an integral.

01;02;44;12 - 01;02;45;27
Speaker 3
Journey of what it's like to.

01;02;45;27 - 01;02;47;00
Speaker 2
Include all.

01;02;47;00 - 01;02;48;17
Speaker 3
Aspects of men throughout time.

01;02;49;29 - 01;03;03;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think the way I hear you is that true unity doesn't mean that you wash out all of the differences and make make everyone homogenous. Three through unity actually means that you genuinely accept the differences.

01;03;04;15 - 01;03;04;23
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;03;04;23 - 01;03;28;13
Speaker 1
And, and I think in terms of the particular heterosexual man, woman, masculine, feminine crucible, that is more true than anywhere that yeah, that is the difference. Accepted, loved and power that actually creates the unity and and.

01;03;28;13 - 01;03;34;02
Speaker 3
One of the one of the features of like how you stop fighting in a relationship like with a woman.

01;03;34;13 - 01;03;40;00
Speaker 2
Is to accept that she's different than you. Of course, realize she's not going to be the same as you. You can stop.

01;03;40;00 - 01;03;44;23
Speaker 3
Fighting for half of the damn things you fight about. It's like she's just never going to be the same. And that's.

01;03;44;23 - 01;03;46;00
Speaker 2
Good. It's a good.

01;03;46;00 - 01;03;46;26
Speaker 3
Thing. Not a bad.

01;03;46;26 - 01;03;50;01
Speaker 2
Deal. Right? Right. Yeah, yeah.

01;03;50;02 - 01;04;17;19
Speaker 1
So pay attention, guys. Yeah, I think, I think where we're starting to approach the end of this conversation. Damian I love yet catching up with you. What do you, what do you love about being a man in 2023?

01;04;17;19 - 01;04;23;29
Speaker 2
Hmm? It's like, I think.

01;04;24;01 - 01;04;30;26
Speaker 3
I think I want to answer, just, like, what do I love about being a man without the without the doubt stamp on it?

01;04;31;03 - 01;04;32;18
Speaker 2
If that not with you.

01;04;32;18 - 01;04;33;29
Speaker 1
That's absolutely okay.

01;04;34;25 - 01;04;38;07
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;04;38;07 - 01;04;39;24
Speaker 2
The more the more I.

01;04;39;24 - 01;04;40;18
Speaker 3
Embrace.

01;04;42;03 - 01;04;42;28
Speaker 2
The.

01;04;43;00 - 01;04;48;03
Speaker 3
Masculine parts of me, the more I embrace kind of.

01;04;48;12 - 01;04;49;26
Speaker 2
The the linear.

01;04;50;07 - 01;05;10;05
Speaker 3
Purposeful, directed way that I want to leave legacy in the world. The more I accept that, that's actually a drive inside of me, you know, as an entrepreneur, that this is important to me, that I that I have a direction and I want to move in that direction. You know, it's like it's been a long journey to actually accept that that's real for me.

01;05;10;05 - 01;05;12;15
Speaker 3
And I want that, you know, it's a lot of shame that has.

01;05;12;23 - 01;05;13;00
Speaker 2
Had.

01;05;13;00 - 01;05;15;17
Speaker 3
To be transmuted, a lot of self-acceptance to be like.

01;05;15;24 - 01;05;17;05
Speaker 2
Actually, I care.

01;05;17;05 - 01;05;34;27
Speaker 3
And I want to go somewhere and I want to do something and I want to leave something behind, you know? And I feel like that's a very masculine thing to want that. And the more that I accept my masculinity in my relationship, you know, I've started exploring in my personal relationship with stepping into more provision.

01;05;35;11 - 01;05;35;26
Speaker 2
Where.

01;05;36;14 - 01;06;00;04
Speaker 3
I'm exploring with my partner, like she's in a transition from one entrepreneurial endeavor to another, and there's one falling apart. And her income is in a hazy space. And I've said to her, I'll, I'll cover the rent. I'm just going to cover the rent from now and while you transition. And so I'm exploring provision what it's like to just be like I'm going to take care of the structure.

01;06;01;00 - 01;06;04;00
Speaker 2
And there's something like I feel it has me.

01;06;04;00 - 01;06;22;13
Speaker 3
Even more driven, you know, it actually like it's, you know, in the past that would have freaked the hell out of me, but now it actually has me go. I'm even more driven and my, I'm expanding, my capacity to earn is jumping as a result. It's like it's wild. And the the correlation, you know, and when I when I touch the places where.

01;06;23;00 - 01;06;23;23
Speaker 2
She's spinning.

01;06;23;23 - 01;06;29;19
Speaker 3
And I go up and I just hold her and she melts, you know, and I don't always get it right. You know.

01;06;30;20 - 01;06;32;03
Speaker 2
The more that I feel.

01;06;32;03 - 01;06;53;11
Speaker 3
These things that I feel is quite like his masculine. And when I'm present to him, we went out to the house, you know, a couple of weeks ago and I decided there were like women around and that bikinis and everything. And I'm just like, I'm actually going to be really present to her. And I've been exploring like not being pulled into kind of validating hits with, with other women.

01;06;53;11 - 01;06;56;19
Speaker 3
You know, it's like, oh, I actually not my attention taken from me.

01;06;57;04 - 01;06;57;15
Speaker 2
And I.

01;06;57;21 - 01;07;05;08
Speaker 3
Remain present to her the entire time. And I could feel women trying to take my attention. You know, they almost glitches women when they can't control a man's attention.

01;07;05;25 - 01;07;08;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, it does. You know, like it's like they get grown.

01;07;08;27 - 01;07;16;08
Speaker 3
If they're used to getting those hits, it's like, why can't I get this man's attention? You know, it's like, no, I'm actually devoted to my woman, you know, it's like she has my attention.

01;07;16;24 - 01;07;17;01
Speaker 2
Mm.

01;07;17;13 - 01;07;29;08
Speaker 3
Again, a very masculine thing. The more I develop all of that, it's like the more I actually just love myself, you know? So it's like, what do I love about being a man? It's like, the more I embrace myself as a man, the more masculine, the more I love myself.

01;07;30;03 - 01;07;52;09
Speaker 1
This is actually what I love about being monogamous. Yeah. Personally, that I get to rest my attention on one place instead of scatter it because there's always opportunity, you know, like, oh, she's that. She's that. I just I just, you know, it wasn't a long journey that I had with more open relationship and I found it to be miserable.

01;07;52;09 - 01;08;10;13
Speaker 1
But the the monogamous focus on one woman and not having like any interest and expanding from that I find to be profoundly integrative in some way. And I like myself more as a result.

01;08;10;15 - 01;08;11;22
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes.

01;08;12;02 - 01;08;17;14
Speaker 3
I completely agree. And I feel more powerful, you know, and my capacity in the world is increasing as a result.

01;08;17;23 - 01;08;18;17
Speaker 2
The more I.

01;08;18;17 - 01;08;20;03
Speaker 3
Narrow my focus in on her.

01;08;20;12 - 01;08;21;11
Speaker 2
The more her.

01;08;21;11 - 01;08;24;28
Speaker 3
Love nourishes me and the more powerful. And eventually I can reach.

01;08;24;29 - 01;08;28;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very powerful. Amazing feedback loop.

01;08;28;23 - 01;08;49;12
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I have just I have just one more question for you before we wrap it up there. And that is if if there was if had a guy or a group of men and you could get them to do one thing, adopt a habit, change and change a belief system. It was and you would have 100% implementation of that.

01;08;50;16 - 01;08;55;10
Speaker 1
What would that be to have them improve their lives?

01;08;56;23 - 01;08;57;15
Speaker 2
I think it would be.

01;08;57;15 - 01;09;02;03
Speaker 3
Just the thing that we actually just spoke about then actually is to become a master of their own attention.

01;09;02;23 - 01;09;04;05
Speaker 2
So to to.

01;09;04;05 - 01;09;28;09
Speaker 3
To have choice about where your attention goes. Is your attention going into your purpose, you know, to to not be like looking for the hit, the fix, the opportunity to actually be in choice and control around your attention in your life and realizing that as a man, attention and your presence is a gift. It's an asset. It's a precious commodity.

01;09;28;20 - 01;09;29;01
Speaker 2
You know.

01;09;29;09 - 01;09;41;10
Speaker 3
And and if you if you if you masturbate that and you give that away for free, you're actually giving away one of your best resources for free you, you know, so you learn to master your own attention and direct it and put it where you want it.

01;09;41;27 - 01;09;43;11
Speaker 2
Mm.

01;09;43;11 - 01;09;49;04
Speaker 1
Fantastic. I like that a lot. Where can people find out more about you and what you're up to these days?

01;09;50;12 - 01;10;15;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, they can check out my website evolutionary relating dot org one word. It's currently going through some upgrades. I don't know when this will air, so it may or may not have had them. Actually, it's not until mid-year where that's happening. You can go to a contact form there and get a sign up to email list. You know, I'm still building my list and there are different options for different kind of information you might be interested in around what what I'm offering currently.

01;10;17;05 - 01;10;28;10
Speaker 3
So that's one place you know if you want to be really close to in the loop of what I've got offering and offering, you know, the offerings that I put on, the discounts that I do those things. I've got a lot of interesting launches coming this.

01;10;28;10 - 01;10;30;13
Speaker 2
Year, can.

01;10;30;13 - 01;10;36;17
Speaker 3
Follow me on Instagram at Evo relating one word and also follow me on Facebook. Damian Blah.

01;10;36;17 - 01;10;37;14
Speaker 2
Blah, blah.

01;10;37;17 - 01;10;44;01
Speaker 3
You know, those are the kind of places where I've got my attention right now. We'll be expanding, but that's where I'm currently out.

01;10;45;07 - 01;10;45;21
Speaker 2
Amazing.

01;10;46;29 - 01;10;50;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you for being a on the Wish Hours podcast.

01;10;50;26 - 01;10;53;20
Speaker 3
Damian It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

01;10;53;20 - 01;10;59;08
Speaker 2
First was great. All right, good fun.

01;10;59;22 - 01;11;09;04
Speaker 1
Thanks for checking in and for staying with us through this hour. I'll see you in the next episode. Bye bye.

01;11;11;25 - 01;11;15;22
Speaker 2
Great. Great.