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We’re introverted—but when it comes to Tori Amos, we’re always willing to discuss. Endlessly, in fact. Introverted But Willing To Discuss Tori Amos is a video podcast where three life-long friends and Tori Amos super fans discuss the singer-songwriter’s musical legacy and create an accompanying playlist for each episode. Hosts: Kristen Keys, Matt Mazur, Joe Vallese.
Joey (00:00)
Greetings, beauty queens, reindeer kings, ladies in blue, and yo, George. I'm Joey.
Matty (00:08)
I'm Matt.
kk (00:11)
I'm Kristen.
Joey (00:12)
And we are introverted but willing to discuss Tori Amos. Tonight we are leaping headfirst into Pandora's Aquarium and having it out over the absolute embarrassment of riches that are Tori's opening and closing album tracks, which are routinely considered some of the strongest and most significant work on their respective records. Tori, when asked about sequencing albums in a 2012 interview with The Quietest, said
I'm always looking at things as albums, not as something that people pull a track off of. I'm looking at the complete work, the fluidity of moving from 1 to the other. I've always thought that was really essential, being able to sit there and put the album on and have an experience. Every Tori album begins with a promise, sometimes an invitation, sometimes a warning.
Sometimes a slap across the face, and by the time the record ends, she's left us either inspired, devastated, enlightened, beguiled, catatonic, or perhaps all of the above. Tonight we are putting those bookends to the test. Now that in Times of Dragons has given us opening and closing songs that I think we can all agree are instant classics, we've decided to rank every opening track.
And every closing track from Tori's full-length studio albums of original, non-seasonal material. This isn't necessarily about the best songs. It's about the art of opening the door to another world and knowing exactly how and when to leave it. Can an explosive opener beat a slow burning masterpiece? Is the perfect closer the 1 that offers resolution and ties a bow on the preceding 60 to 85 minutes?
Or should a closer be 1 serpentine provocative question mark that leaves us wanting more, needing desperately to start the album all over again to discover new clues and figure out how what started out as a pretty good year ended in a little earthquake. As
kk (02:16)
Ooh.
Joey (02:17)
always, we brought our lists, our arguments, and our deeply held opinions that are all pretty much guaranteed to change by next week. So get out your parasol.
'Cause you'll need to protect yourself from all the gold dust we'll be slinging. Too much? Hmm, well. guys.
Matty (02:33)
You forgot something when you were describing what those songs make us. They make us horny.
Joey (02:38)
What?
kk (02:41)
my god.
Joey (02:42)
my jeez. It's
Matty (02:44)
I'm
s let's do it. We're going we're going there immediately.
kk (02:47)
We're
not horny. Nobody's horny right now.
Joey (02:49)
Horny.
kk (02:50)
What's going on with you? Did you just have sex? You came in ready to go.
Joey (02:54)
He he it's the ha it's the hat he's wearing.
kk (02:56)
It's that low neck. Okay.
Joey (02:58)
It's a low neck, the hat.
Matty (02:58)
Ha ha ha.
Sorry,
Joey (03:02)
She
Matty (03:02)
I'm showing a little
Joey (03:03)
is
Matty (03:03)
delcillet tonight.
kk (03:05)
Decolatage. I'm not
horny, just so the listeners know I'm like totally just middle of the road normal right now. But I'm
Matty (03:14)
Mm.
kk (03:15)
excited.
Joey (03:16)
Yeah, I'm not humping anything, but I'm ex I'm I'm excited for this, you know?
kk (03:18)
Hehehehehe
Matty (03:20)
Sorry for you guys.
Joey (03:23)
all right. So listeners, you know how this goes. When we rank, we it's anonymous. I again have the pleasure of being the 1 to receive the responses. Kristen and Matt do not know what is to come. They will hear
the rankings in descending order. but we've got some ties to break this time. So there'll be some in the moment tie breaking that's going to happen, which is exciting. I have the f 15 tracks, scored them
Number 1 is 15, number 2 is fourteen, et cetera. And then figured out the scores from there. And as always with our rankings, I think things might get a little spicy, a little controversial. because you know, we can have some consensus and then somebody can really like smack it.
in another direction because of a high or a low ranking of a song that the 2 others sort of hold in high esteem or vice versa. So yeah, it's really interesting. But as I said in the intro, I think closing and opening songs are such a thing that we look forward to with the Tori record. And they really do
set the mood and they do close things out in a way that doesn't feel arbitrary. It always feels really intentional, really careful, and really thematic, you know, and often cinematic at the end.
kk (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (04:52)
yeah.
Matty (04:51)
Totally. I
I I think it might be important for us to reiterate to people who are maybe just coming on for this episode
Joey (04:58)
Yeah.
Matty (05:00)
the albums that we did rank because we we didn't we didn't include a couple of things. So we
Joey (05:04)
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matty (05:07)
we did
kk (05:07)
Yes.
Matty (05:07)
not include EPs or seasonal
Joey (05:10)
Yes.
Matty (05:11)
or best of collection like a piano and I don't believe Oracle does. So I
Joey (05:14)
Mm-hmm. Or gold dust. Yeah.
Matty (05:17)
think that's all we excluded and we're considering Tori and the Muses.
For the purposes of this ranking system to also be
kk (05:24)
and EP.
Matty (05:25)
an EP. Mm-hmm.
Joey (05:25)
An EP.
Matty (05:26)
and I did want to also call back to our last ranking episode, which was ranking the Tori albums, which was a fool's errand and crazy.
Joey (05:35)
Hmm.
Matty (05:36)
We had a lot of people talking to us about those and those rankings, and some of them were a little bit controversial. And 1 comment did mention, and I'm gonna say this person's name because he's a friend of so mikelight.
Joey (05:49)
Okay.
Matty (05:49)
said in the comments
kk (05:50)
yeah.
Matty (05:51)
that we should have like a rubric or we should have some sort of rules or we should, you know, have like some sort of clear, fair logic that defines
kk (06:00)
You
Matty (06:01)
what we're
Joey (06:01)
Hm.
Matty (06:02)
doing here. And I just want to say to that, it's not a democracy on this podcast, honey.
Joey (06:06)
I knew it.
kk (06:06)
Damn!
Joey (06:07)
I knew you were
saying that.
Matty (06:09)
And
we go purely on vibes and
Joey (06:11)
Yeah.
Matty (06:12)
purely on where the wind is blowing us today. Mm-hmm. We do.
kk (06:13)
We do love you though, Mike, we do.
Joey (06:16)
We also think
that anything like guidelines or rubrics, I think can like I don't know, because there's even subjectivity in creating those rubrics, right?
kk (06:26)
I know.
Joey (06:27)
So how do you do it, right? Like there's no real you know, Yeah, we're dumb we're dummies. Come on, like we're just enjoying ourselves. Yeah.
kk (06:32)
This is also just for fun and like you, And I think also
what you said is really important Matty which is like it's where we land today basically. So like I
Joey (06:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
kk (06:44)
don't even remember what I said, shocker. But I would probably disagree with it some of it by now. So we'll see.
Joey (06:51)
Yeah.
kk (06:52)
But I'm excited, I'm excited to fight about it, whatever it is. I'm ready. Yeah.
Joey (06:55)
I don't think I
Matty (06:55)
That's the whole that's the whole point.
Joey (06:57)
also just to make clear to the listeners for American Doll Posse we decided consensus was that Dragon was the closing track and not Dark Side of the Sun.
kk (07:10)
Dark Side. That may not
be controversial to some of the listeners, it was to me, because
Matty (07:15)
Yeah.
kk (07:15)
I've always considered those bonus songs, because I think they were intended to be bonus songs
Joey (07:20)
Yeah.
kk (07:20)
originally. know plans changed, but I've always heard them as that. But the boys said, no, it's definitely Dragon. And so it
Joey (07:28)
Yeah.
kk (07:29)
changed things for me and my world.
Matty (07:32)
And also if we if we s if we start like applying all of these like crazy rules and exceptions to things, we're just gonna be ant fucking this list down into the ground until it doesn't
kk (07:41)
Yeah.
Matty (07:42)
exist anymore.
Joey (07:42)
Well,
and I will also say this my my rationale for that is I looked and I researched and I don't believe you can find American Doll Posse commercially
kk (07:54)
You can't.
Joey (07:55)
released without those songs. So I think it's more of a character thing. It's like an encore. It's like
kk (07:59)
correct.
Joey (08:00)
so it's still the same record. Whereas
Abnormally attracted to sin, you can find versions without Oscar's theme. So Oscar's theme would not be the closing track to that. It's Lady in Blue. So that's the way I sort of thought about it. And that that feels right. Yeah.
kk (08:16)
I accept it. just, I don't know, it was just a lot. It was a lot to process, you know?
Joey (08:23)
okay.
Matty (08:23)
So you've been living
a lie living living a lie for about twenty years now?
kk (08:26)
That's
like kind of what it felt like, you know?
Joey (08:28)
Well, you
thought you were getting a special treat with Dragon, but so you didn't want to admit that it was
kk (08:32)
I think there was something there where I was like, know, these B sides are so special. There's something different. then I have to, I don't know, I'm gonna work on this later with myself, you know, me, myself and my headphones, but yeah.
Joey (08:45)
Well,
I also want to say 1 more thing. If if there were no other B sides from American Doll Posse, then maybe I could understand the argument better. But we did get Drive All Night, we did get Miracle, so we got other songs elsewhere. It's not like she
kk (08:58)
Right. That's true.
Joey (09:02)
had a bonus and then all those songs were on there. So that's why I think that it's safe to say Dragon is the closer.
kk (09:08)
Y'all, can
barely move my lower jaw from my Botox as well, Matthew. I'm like...
Matty (09:14)
What do you mean as well?
Joey (09:16)
Yeah. Who are you talking about?
kk (09:17)
just me is the only 1 who's loaded up with Botox on this show.
Joey (09:22)
Ha ha.
Matty (09:23)
my God.
kk (09:25)
What? It's real... No, no, no. It's relatable. It's relatable. But anyway, let's
Joey (09:26)
Man, we gotta cut we gotta cut this. We gotta cut this. Okay.
kk (09:31)
move on.
Joey (09:33)
Shall we dive in? Because we were originally like, this will be 2 2 different episodes. And then we're like, nah, it's gonna be 1 episode. So let's just okay,
kk (09:38)
Let's do it. Let's get to it. Let's go. Let's go.
Joey (09:41)
okay. So the way we'll do it is I will just start from lowest score to the top and time to react. and if we decide that we need to go back to our original rankings because something is so shocking to somebody, then we can go and we can see where it is. Okay. All right.
Matty (10:01)
I've got mine right
here, I'm ready.
kk (10:03)
I need to see mine.
Joey (10:03)
Great, great.
Okay. So for opening tracks coming in at Well, so okay, we've got we've got these ties that
kk (10:20)
lord.
Joey (10:21)
make they're at the top. The ties are at the top. But we've so instead of 15, we technically have number twelve as the last 1 because of
Some ties. Okay.
kk (10:33)
Okay.
Joey (10:35)
So coming in at number twelve, we have America.
was not my last 1, but it was others.
kk (10:45)
Well, I
don't have a copy of my submission, shocker. If you have it, I'd love to see it. I don't know if it was my last, it's
Joey (10:53)
Okay. How's that?
kk (10:55)
1 of my later for sure.
Joey (10:57)
I'll
I'll tell you. No, you you both had it as your last. Yeah.
kk (11:05)
okay.
Also for any new listeners, by the way, we absolutely love and would shank somebody for talking shit about these songs, but I mean, it's
Joey (11:10)
Yeah, we love everything. Yeah, yeah.
kk (11:14)
just a reason to fight. So, okay. But it seems like we're mostly
Joey (11:17)
Yeah.
kk (11:18)
in consensus around if we had to rank the songs, which we've decided to do, that's that ranking today. Okay,
Joey (11:26)
Yeah, yeah.
kk (11:27)
great.
Joey (11:28)
Okay. And then number eleven's a tie, but I didn't make I'm not making a tiebreaker
kk (11:35)
breaker.
Joey (11:36)
form for this because it's towards the bottom. I think we can like sort of hash it out together and argue for it. The top is different. so we have at number eleven edition of light divided and
kk (11:48)
Hmm.
Joey (11:50)
yo George as
our tied for number eleven.
I would make an argument for Yo George being lower than addition of light divided.
kk (12:03)
well I think I disagree.
Joey (12:05)
Okay.
Matty (12:05)
I am
I'm in agreement with you, Joey.
kk (12:07)
I just, well, I like
Joey (12:07)
Okay. Tell us, Kristen. Tell us why.
kk (12:10)
both of those songs, number 1. So I'm having a hard time comparing, I know.
Joey (12:15)
Very different, very different.
kk (12:17)
I like it when she does kind of a saucy, weird intro. Like I like a little something kind of out of the box. And for some reason, Yo George gets me hyped, you know? I
Joey (12:30)
Yeah.
kk (12:31)
love addition, but yeah, I mean, you know, I love American Doll Posse.
So think it just brings me right back to
Joey (12:37)
Sure, sure.
kk (12:38)
that fire, you know?
Joey (12:41)
Yeah.
Matty (12:42)
I I'm gonna I'm gonna argue for the plaintiff addition of Light Divided. I I think
kk (12:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matty (12:48)
that hearing that song coming out of the pandemic was such a core memory for me. And
kk (12:54)
Yes.
Matty (12:54)
it's s
Joey (12:54)
Yeah.
Matty (12:55)
it it's so healing. And the message is, you know, you don't have to stay broken. and it just it speaks
kk (13:00)
Yes, it's a good song.
Matty (13:02)
it it speaks to, you know, coming out of the darkness of that time period and finally being able to see some light and some connection. So
To me, it has the edge for that reason. I think it's a beautiful song too, lyrically, vocally, all of it. and
Joey (13:18)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (13:18)
it and it also really sets the tone for that entire album. Now, I too love a weird sort of like, as you
kk (13:25)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (13:26)
said, weird piano intro sort of song. But I think for an album like American Doll Posse, which is so diverse and so wide ranging and has so many musical styles.
I'm not sure with all of the sort of like big personalities on that record that I would put Yo George at the very beginning. I mean, I
kk (13:51)
Okay.
Matty (13:52)
think I I personally think like bouncing off clouds would have been a great opener. I think
kk (13:57)
Mmm.
Matty (13:58)
that's a great way into that record. But, you know,
Joey (14:00)
Yeah.
Matty (14:01)
aga again, I am not a musician and I am not Tori Amos and I'm, you know, I that's just what I would do for my own playlist. So
kk (14:10)
Yeah, that makes sense. There's no wrong
Joey (14:11)
Fair. Okay.
kk (14:13)
answers.
Joey (14:13)
So it seems like we just we've got the swap there.
kk (14:16)
I think, yeah.
Joey (14:17)
It's Yo George America, Yo George, and then Addition of Life Divided is is above it. Okay. Okay. Okay,
kk (14:21)
Yeah, y'all voted y'all is 2 to 1. So yeah, you get your way.
Joey (14:25)
so now we move into slightly spicier territory. Territory.
kk (14:29)
yeah.
Joey (14:31)
number ten is Parasol.
Which I I rank significantly higher.
kk (14:39)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (14:39)
Than both of you.
kk (14:40)
Okay, so where did you rank it and where did me and Matty rank it?
Joey (14:44)
so it was in my top ten, it was number eight, and you
kk (14:46)
Okay.
Joey (14:48)
all had it. Matty had it number thirteen, and you had it number fourteen.
kk (14:51)
Okay, there's a lot of good songs, I don't know what to say.
Joey (14:54)
Yeah, yeah.
I just I just surprised, that's all.
kk (14:58)
I do
think that Parasol is 1 of my favorite songs on that album.
Joey (15:03)
Yeah.
kk (15:03)
I think it's a very strong opener. I might be ranking it lower because of perhaps hearing it live a lot, which isn't exactly fair because that's
Joey (15:15)
Mm.
kk (15:15)
not what we're doing. Like that's not exactly the task at hand. You know what I mean? And I love it live. So it's not like, I don't like it live and I ranked it lower. think it might,
Joey (15:25)
Yeah, yeah.
kk (15:25)
it's almost like it feels like
It's always present to me. So maybe I was like, you know, I don't know.
Joey (15:31)
Mm. You don't have
you don't have to defend it. It's okay. I'm just curious. I would just Yeah, yeah. I know you love the song, so it's not you know
kk (15:34)
I'm just walking through my thoughts. Well, since it's 1 of my
favorite songs on the album and it's an opener, you would think
Joey (15:44)
Yeah.
kk (15:46)
So I
Joey (15:46)
Yeah.
kk (15:47)
don't know.
Joey (15:49)
It's also 1 of those songs
that I think feels like it can only be an opener, you know? Like I
kk (15:54)
Yeah.
Joey (15:54)
don't know where else it would obviously we we configured things for our
kk (15:58)
We did our track listings too.
Joey (16:00)
playlists, but in reality it's 1 of those songs that, like many of the openers, feels like it can only be an opener. But that
kk (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (16:07)
might just be I don't know. I don't think it's just because we're used to it and we're conditioned to it. I think it's because Tori actually crafts an opener to sound like an opener, you know? Yeah.
kk (16:17)
Yeah, I think so. Okay.
Joey (16:20)
Matty
any thoughts?
Matty (16:23)
I really disagree with that. I think it could be in another place on an album.
kk (16:26)
well, we have an episode on that. We have an episode on that. So that's great.
Joey (16:29)
Go to
go to the beekeeper episode. I just re-listened recently, although it has some funky audio, but it's a good episode. It was an early. Yeah,
kk (16:36)
yeah.
Joey (16:37)
it was an early, but still it's still good. Here we go. Next. Boop boo-boo. All right.
Coming in above Parasol is Amber Waves. Okay.
kk (16:49)
Okay,
how did we all rank Amber waves separately?
Joey (16:54)
I will tell
you right now. Matthew ranked it at number nine.
kk (17:00)
Okay
Joey (17:02)
I ranked it at number eleven, and you ranked it at number thirteen.
kk (17:08)
Okay. Is that the 1 that surprised you for me?
Joey (17:11)
I was a well,
I was surprised by Yo George being high being as high as it was, and I was surprised by Amber given what a devotee you are of Scarlet's Walk, that it was a little bit lower. But Amber
kk (17:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joey (17:24)
Waves also it's a really strong opener, but it also feels a lot
There's like an abruptness to it that I think is really it can be jarring sometimes. And I think Amber Waves could be somewhere else on the album too, even though it makes sense to start there. Musically I think it could also fit in other spots. It's 1 of the few that I actually think is true about that.
Matthew, thoughts on Amber Waves as opener?
Matty (17:49)
I mean to me this is at this point it gets really hard to rank things be
kk (17:53)
Yeah.
Matty (17:54)
because
Joey (17:54)
Yes.
Matty (17:55)
like you said, these openers are so intentional, they set the tone, they set the stage for sort of like long, elaborate concept records in the case of Amber Waves. I don't I
Joey (18:06)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Matty (18:07)
I I actually disagree with you here. I do think Amber Waves is probably the right way to open it. I
kk (18:14)
Dang.
Matty (18:15)
and I can
Joey (18:15)
I'm not saying it's
the wrong way. I'm just saying that I I could hear it elsewhere sonically on the record. Story wise,
Matty (18:19)
I I see. I see.
Joey (18:20)
it's definitely the opener. Yeah, yeah.
Matty (18:22)
Yeah, and I think what I appreciate, 1 of the things that I appreciate about Scarlet's Walk is the storytelling from beginning
to end and how coherent and cohesive and tight
kk (18:30)
Yeah.
Joey (18:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
Matty (18:34)
the storytelling is. So I for that reason, I mean, I could have ranked it higher even, you know.
Joey (18:42)
Mm.
Matty (18:42)
I had to really I had to really think hard about the openers. But I I
Joey (18:47)
Yeah.
Matty (18:47)
love I love the song. So I think that's gonna be the common theme. I don't think any of us are gonna say,
Joey (18:51)
We're gonna say
we love the song, but it just yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's right.
Matty (18:53)
Yeah. I don't think any
of us are gonna say I I hate this opening song.
kk (18:58)
Well, I love Amber Waves and I love Scarlet and I did slightly punish it here because I think that album
Joey (19:06)
Mm-hmm.
kk (19:06)
is full of just incredible songs, period. And I do think that you could potentially start the album differently as well. I mean, it's such like an epic road trip that the road trip
Joey (19:19)
Yeah.
kk (19:20)
could be, you know, you could take a different turn 1 way. I
Joey (19:22)
Yeah. It could start in a different direction, for sure.
kk (19:24)
mean, but.
So I kind of, you know, just for the sake of content went ahead and I did vote it lower. I also don't, I also was kind of thinking in terms of like other, even though it's not a democracy on this podcast, I was thinking about other people's opinions of kind of first tracks. And I do think generally people rank it a bit lower. So I was trying to balance
Joey (19:44)
Yeah.
kk (19:45)
a few different things. but you know, huge fan. I love the healing machine.
Joey (19:52)
I know it's so good. Ooh.
Matty (19:53)
This
song gets stuck in my head a lot.
kk (19:55)
Me too.
Joey (19:56)
Me too.
kk (19:57)
I can hear it live. Is she ready? Should I ask for it?
Matty (20:00)
Has she done it?
kk (20:01)
I don't know, but like, let's go. Here, let's look it up. Do you feel like the
Joey (20:01)
I don't I don't think she's done it on this tour. I could be wrong, but I don't think she has.
kk (20:07)
person who runs toriset.org feels so special because nobody can talk about anything this woman has done live without referencing toriset because.
Joey (20:17)
I mean, what a service they've done. What a service.
kk (20:18)
I know, God, it's amazing. No
Amber waves this tour, but like let's go to all tours
Joey (20:24)
Okay.
kk (20:24)
real quick and then we'll move on to the next. I'm just curious.
Joey (20:27)
It was played
a lot on the Ocean to Ocean tour. I heard it a few times. Yeah.
kk (20:30)
Yes, it was 17 times on Ocean to Ocean. She
was feeling it, which I like. That's fun. But I could hear
Joey (20:36)
Yeah.
kk (20:36)
it with the ladies because damn, you know?
Joey (20:40)
Can
I, I I don't remember if I've said this on the Scarlet's episode, but I have to tell you guys, I I'm somebody whose ears are like really, really attuned to Tori's albums and the sounds that I hear. And I think I maybe I've told you in the past, I cannot for the fucking life of me hear the Rhodes during the chorus of Amber Waves. And so many people tell me that.
They can hear it just fine. And when obviously when she's when it's live, she plays that on the keyboard.
kk (21:12)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (21:13)
I can't hear it on the studio version. It's like I have a bl like a sound like an ear blindness to
kk (21:21)
Sure.
Joey (21:22)
that mix for some reason. There's something that happens. I it's 20 something years later, I just can't hear it. Yeah. I just
kk (21:28)
Even with every master? God.
Matty (21:28)
Even on the ro I same question.
kk (21:31)
Twins. Yeah.
Joey (21:31)
Maybe a little bit better on the remaster, but I still struggle.
There's something about it, maybe it's a I think it's just that my brain fixates on other things during that part and I
kk (21:42)
Yeah.
Joey (21:42)
just can't enter it. I've tried and it's really it's really weird. It feels almost like I don't know, like I'm missing like a like as a color blindness or something or I'm missing something.
kk (21:51)
Right.
Joey (21:52)
I I just don't hear it, you know? It's like a
kk (21:55)
It's like a note you can't hear or something.
Joey (21:56)
note I can't hear. It's really weird.
And I feel very like attuned to it. It's very strange.
Matty (22:02)
How sad.
Joey (22:04)
I I'll I'm
kk (22:03)
Yeah, that is sad because I mean, I'm gonna tell you right now, I can hear and it's great.
Joey (22:07)
I'm gonna listen to it again. Maybe you'll put it in. You'll put it in for in the episode. We'll see. Okay.
kk (22:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (22:13)
Okay. Next. Coming in above Amber Waves is there has been a shattering. There has been a shattering, guys. Shattering sea. which
kk (22:20)
Uh-oh. Great.
Matty (22:21)
Mm. Mm.
Joey (22:24)
I th I think I think it's in a good spot. It makes sense to me. And number
kk (22:28)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (22:29)
eight in this, you know, configuration.
kk (22:32)
Very, very
stressful opener, very appropriate
Joey (22:35)
Hmm.
kk (22:36)
for the album. One of the stronger songs on the album,
It
Matty (22:38)
Mm-hmm.
kk (22:39)
feels like you're running through the house, like no notes.
Joey (22:42)
Yeah.
Melodramatic, cinematic.
kk (22:46)
and starting an album
Matty (22:46)
Mm-hmm.
kk (22:47)
with that is not my blood on the bedroom floor, it's like,
Joey (22:51)
Yeah.
kk (22:52)
shit.
Matty (22:53)
And the the string arrangements from our friend John Philip Shenale are out of control
kk (22:58)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (22:58)
Wow, wow.
Matty (23:00)
on this 1. It reminds me of like a Hitchcock film or a a a suspense
kk (23:03)
Yes.
Matty (23:05)
you know, something suspensable from the fifties or sixties.
Joey (23:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
kk (23:08)
Yes.
Matty (23:09)
It's it but at the same time it's also like bracingly modern. There's a real nice
Joey (23:13)
Yeah.
Matty (23:14)
duality and a real a a really nice sort of callback to things classic without being, you know, stuffy or corny.
kk (23:22)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (23:23)
Yeah,
what a remark I mean, a remarkable opener and also what a fantastic tour opener that was on that tour. It was just like mind blowing. It was beautiful, it was intense, it was like Yeah, yeah,
kk (23:35)
really cool to walk into like that, you know?
Joey (23:37)
yeah.
Matty (23:38)
I'm holding out hope and I know we don't want to talk too much about this tour because we've been doing it for many episodes now, but I am holding out hope that we may get Shattering Sea on this tour simp
kk (23:49)
Mmm.
Matty (23:50)
simply because
Joey (23:50)
I would love that.
Matty (23:51)
simply because Tori mentioned it by name in an interview pretty pretty
Joey (23:54)
Yeah, that's right.
Matty (23:56)
recently as being a song that she was thinking about. So if we're putting the clues together, you know, maybe maybe that will be coming.
Joey (24:05)
Yeah. I also think there are only a handful of songs on Night of Hunters that translate live outside of that tour because many of them are very long. They're very, you know, like so so I feel like a shadowing sea, a fearlessness, a carry, those, you know, Edge of the Moon, like some of those feel really ripe for
reinterpretation
kk (24:28)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (24:29)
with the current setup with the Angel Witches. But like Star Whisper might be too difficult and too long and I would love it. I would love it. But, you
kk (24:35)
God, I would love to hear that. Yeah, I know.
Joey (24:37)
know, like so you think about some of them and you're like, would this really work? Although maybe I'm wrong. It may be like something like, you know, the title track would really work with the Angel Witches. I don't know. Like it just depends how theatrical
kk (24:48)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (24:49)
they want to be with the call and response, right? but yeah, I love that song. I think it's phenomenal.
kk (24:56)
could hear the chase, you know what I'm saying?
Joey (24:59)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay,
kk (25:00)
always here for it.
Joey (25:02)
coming in above shattering sea is give.
kk (25:07)
Okay.
Joey (25:09)
I love give.
kk (25:10)
Is that higher than I put it?
Joey (25:13)
we'll tell you. Hold on. Let's see. So it's we have it at seven, but again, keeping in mind that there are ties, so the numbers are a little bit skewed.
kk (25:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (25:24)
Matthew had give at number eight on his list.
kk (25:27)
Okay.
Joey (25:28)
you had given number eleven and I had given number ten. So it made my
kk (25:30)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Joey (25:32)
top ten and Matty's top ten, and it was just a little was a little bit outside of yours.
kk (25:37)
Okay.
Joey (25:38)
But still, you know, hi.
Matty (25:39)
I I
love this I like love love love this song. I can listen to it all the time. I think
Joey (25:44)
Yeah.
Matty (25:44)
it's a great opener for a kind of far out there album that's a little bit experimental and kind of
kk (25:50)
Yes, yes.
Joey (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (25:52)
goes in d in a lot of different directions. I like the the creepiness of it. I like the atmosphere, the mood.
kk (25:58)
sick.
Joey (25:58)
Yeah.
Matty (25:59)
I love the visualette for it too. I think it's I think
Joey (26:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Matty (26:02)
it's well d I think it's all really well done and works together.
and I've heard this 1 live a bunch, obviously, and I could hear it again, you know. I just really
kk (26:11)
You will hear it again.
Matty (26:12)
I probably will hear it again, fingers
Joey (26:14)
Hmm.
Matty (26:14)
crossed. But I just I it's a song I don't really get tired of.
Joey (26:19)
Yeah, I could hear it all the time too. It was a great opener on that tour. And also, on the record, it sounds different than the other songs, which I really like.
kk (26:28)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (26:29)
But also, Abnormally Attracted to Sin is a very sonically busy album in a lot of ways. And though Give is really hard, it's also kind of sparse and I like that. It kind of gives me like strange little girls callbacks or something. Like it
kk (26:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joey (26:47)
feels like I'm not in love, meets
I don't know, something else. Like it feels like like the synth the sensor, you know, in and out and oscillating, and her voice is so intense and so up close, and the piano is sort of like it's there, but it's like un it's like pulsating under the surface. It feels like a blood flow or something, just very eerie and like, you know, it's like intense.
But like not showy, you know, there's something about it that just feels very like tight and very chilly.
Matty (27:21)
Chi like chilly almost.
Joey (27:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good word for it. Yeah.
kk (27:26)
I like that.
Joey (27:27)
yeah, I'm a big fan of it. Okay, coming in above give. so now we'll be in like number six, and then but again, we have we have a big tie at the top, so a little teaser. So above give, we have new age.
Matty (27:46)
Makes sense.
Joey (27:48)
I let me see, I rang to new age.
kk (27:50)
I'm pretty sure that you said
original material, by the way. in the intro. No.
Joey (27:54)
Well, but I but haven't should we should we cut it out?
Matty (27:59)
No,
I wanna I wanna I wanna talk about Kristen's hatred
Joey (28:02)
Because
Matty (28:03)
of strange little girls for a minute.
kk (28:04)
I don't,
it's just, it's not original. I know, that's why I ranked it. I ranked it well. I know, and I ranked it well. I just.
Joey (28:07)
I know, but I but but I think but we c but we counted it in our album rankings as well, right? So I was just keeping it so okay,
Matty (28:08)
But it is
Joey (28:17)
so I just misspoke then in my intro. All right.
You you
kk (28:21)
Okay, fine.
Joey (28:22)
can we can just keep it at that, right? but let's see, Matthew put New Age at number seven and Kristen and I both put it at number nine.
So it was in everybody's top ten.
kk (28:38)
We love it.
Joey (28:39)
And I just fucking love that song. I think it's perfectly produced. Like I think the album is perfectly produced. I think it's just so cool. It sounds so different than other
kk (28:49)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (28:50)
Tori songs. I love the the way we get introduced to the Wurlitzer in that is like really, really heavenly. Yeah.
Matty (28:58)
It's very w very warm at the beginning.
Those notes are so they just sort of like warm you. And it's a sexy song.
Joey (29:07)
Really sexy. Really, really, really sexy. And
kk (29:08)
Very sexy. Horny.
Joey (29:11)
very horny. And also the fact that it's a cover of like a live version of that song and not the original is also like it's cool, that's kind of a deep cut. I like that Tori did that. And also I like the effect on her voice. So like the Worlitzer
kk (29:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joey (29:27)
is really warm, but her voice is quite
It's right in your ear, but it's also like distant and then yearning and like I don't know, it just feels
kk (29:36)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (29:37)
really it's just really hot. I love that song.
kk (29:40)
You just
feel like she's like right there in your ears, too.
Joey (29:45)
And we got to hear 1 of the only live performances of it ever, maybe the only live performance ever with a band in San Antonio in twenty in 2 thousand seven. She did that. She
kk (29:59)
That show was great.
Joey (30:00)
did that as Isabel. It was a big surprise. And it was that show was also a full Yes Anastasia, Butterfly, Mountain. It was great.
kk (30:11)
That show
Joey (30:11)
Great, great, great. And
kk (30:11)
was so good.
Joey (30:12)
a beautiful theater, too.
Coming in above new age. And now the numbers are getting kind of tight. because for
kk (30:18)
Yeah.
Joey (30:19)
me, it's tough to see this as low as it is, even though it's not low. but we have pretty good year. which it
kk (30:27)
Hmm, that is low.
Joey (30:30)
yeah, but well, so.
This is what I was talking about in the beginning about how like depending on, you know, who
kk (30:37)
Uh-huh.
Joey (30:37)
ranks something lower, it can really throw things off. Cause we have, I'll tell you, it was number 1 for me, it was number six
kk (30:45)
Of Of course.
Joey (30:47)
for Kristen, and it was number
kk (30:49)
Mm-hmm. Matthew.
Joey (30:52)
fucking twelve for Matthew.
kk (30:56)
Speak on it. Let's go.
Joey (30:58)
It's all you.
Matty (31:00)
I mean I I it was a really hard ranking, that's all I can say. And
Joey (31:05)
I know, I know. Yeah.
kk (31:06)
It was. was.
Matty (31:09)
you know, it's no secret on this podcast that Under the Pink is not my personal favorite album. I love it, I still love it, but
Joey (31:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matty (31:17)
you know, like compared to these other songs that I listen to way more, you know, I'm I'm gonna rank it a little bit lower.
kk (31:24)
Okay.
Joey (31:25)
Okay. I have nothing to say, so you can say whatever you want, Kristen.
Matty (31:30)
Wow.
kk (31:30)
I just think
that it's a really, I just remember in the early years of discovering Tori, just thinking how beautiful and then dramatic and it was just so jarring in the best way. There's
Joey (31:53)
Yeah.
kk (31:53)
a lot of things going on there and then especially
God following that right after. It's just like a really epic album opening and so different than Little Earthquakes. And I think that was 1 of the things that was really captivating about those early albums. like, think Pretty
Joey (32:10)
Yeah.
kk (32:10)
Good Years still holds
Matty (32:12)
that's interesting
to me that you would say that you feel like Pretty Good Year is drastically different from Little Earthquakes because
kk (32:18)
It feels different.
Matty (32:20)
to me I I mean,
Joey (32:20)
I think it feels different too.
Matty (32:22)
I I don't maybe I don't see it, but
kk (32:24)
I get it.
Matty (32:25)
yeah, I mean it's quintess it is also quintessential Tori like it the
Joey (32:29)
Right, right.
kk (32:29)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (32:30)
the song is is everything that you would expect from Tori. And I think
Joey (32:33)
Yeah.
Matty (32:34)
it I think following up Little Earthquakes with that as the first track.
makes a lot of sense because it sort of to me, again, is very similar to a lot of things that you might hear on a little earthquakes, but what it does is it takes you by the hand into some sh
into some shit that you've not heard before, like God and Bells for Her. And I
kk (32:50)
Yes. Yes.
Joey (32:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matty (32:54)
think in that respect, it's a great album opener because it bridges those worlds.
Joey (32:59)
Totally. Totally. It sets
kk (32:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I get that.
Joey (33:01)
it sets the soundscape and the tone. And also like it's so beautiful, but it's also weird, you know? And it's 1 of those
kk (33:07)
It's so weird.
Joey (33:08)
moments that really solidifies like, huh, there's something just slightly off about the beauty here, you know? I love it.
kk (33:16)
Not sure if
you ever I'm sure you did do this. But
Joey (33:19)
Wow.
kk (33:19)
so I don't know if you remember just back in the day when you know, people would want to like listen to Tori and you'd put a mix and put Pretty Good Year on or like have them listen to Pretty Good Year for the first time and watch them. It's always so fun, right as the moment builds and everybody's eyes get so big. And it still feels
Joey (33:36)
Yeah.
kk (33:36)
like that even when we hear it live or it comes on. I'm still like, damn, you know, so
Joey (33:39)
Yeah. I
sometimes play it for my students as like the last thing that we listen to and talk
kk (33:45)
Yeah.
Joey (33:46)
about and they're often really like jarred by the bridge, you know. yes.
kk (33:48)
Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Wake some bitches up in class, you know?
Joey (33:53)
Totally, totally. Okay, are we ready for the next track? So coming in above crucify just slightly. Sorry, coming there you go. Coming in above pretty good
kk (34:04)
It's crucify.
Joey (34:06)
year just slightly is crucify.
kk (34:09)
Okay, great.
Matty (34:10)
Yeah. Crucify is iconic. It's the first song
Joey (34:13)
Yeah.
Matty (34:14)
on 1
kk (34:14)
Yeah.
Matty (34:14)
of the best debut records ever to be made in the history of music. What what
kk (34:17)
Right.
Matty (34:19)
more could you say about that? We ranked it at number five. There you go.
Joey (34:22)
Every
every finger in the room is pointing at me. I wanna spit in their faces. Like that is some opener.
kk (34:27)
It's
an incredible opener lyrically. I think for a lot of us, this song was in 1 of those first, if not the first pivotal moment of us. I just remember
Joey (34:37)
Yeah.
kk (34:37)
hearing that my head on a swivel. I was like, what is that? I want more of that. It was such a strong reaction to hearing something.
Joey (34:45)
Yeah.
Matty (34:45)
Al
also if you come from a religious background, like I I grew up
kk (34:49)
Yeah.
Joey (34:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Matty (34:50)
and I grew up around a lot of Christianity and a lot of church. To
kk (34:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Matty (34:54)
hear somebody talking like that and using those those words that are so coded to
kk (35:01)
Yeah.
Matty (35:02)
to say the least, they're they're shocking. It's shocking to
kk (35:05)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (35:05)
Well
Matty (35:05)
hear somebody talking about being crucified, right? Like that's yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joey (35:08)
It's still shocking, but thirty five years ago, right? Like
kk (35:11)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (35:13)
Yeah.
kk (35:13)
Debut album, a single, I mean...
Joey (35:17)
And tells you who she is right away, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Matty (35:17)
This I was just I was just gonna say that. That's exactly right. You
you know the identity of this person with this first opening song. Like think about how powerful that is. Think about what an accomplishment that is. So s sorry that we ranked it where we ranked it.
kk (35:35)
No,
I think it's, I think, I don't think most people will disagree.
Joey (35:36)
No, it's quite high. No,
no, it's it's I mean it's very it's it's no, it's
kk (35:42)
I think.
Joey (35:43)
people lost their minds to hear that song live every show that we've been at. Like it's still indoors. People are just still people are like, Yes, give me this fourteen minute version of it. Everybody wants it, you know?
kk (35:52)
Well, I think Matty's saying
some people might want it to be higher. And I think
that's what I think. Yeah. And
Matty (35:57)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
kk (35:59)
I mean,
Joey (35:59)
Well
kk (35:59)
look, it could be. It's just, again, more ranking, fuckatorium, it's opening tracks. What do want me to do?
Joey (36:02)
I mean when we're getting to these last
Matty (36:02)
N not not today.
Joey (36:06)
I mean
it's just we're getting to like we're we're getting there and they're just it's just again, I said embarrassment of riches in
kk (36:13)
Yeah.
Joey (36:13)
the intro and I mean it. Like these songs are fucking incredible. So coming
kk (36:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (36:18)
in above Crucify, New Kid on the Block, but instant classic, shush.
kk (36:24)
Okay, wait, number is that five?
Matty (36:25)
Fuck y fuck yes.
Joey (36:27)
so it's number three, but again, I teased
kk (36:31)
We have a big tie.
Joey (36:32)
you we have a three way tie for number 1. So if we were to reorder it, it'd be a little bit lower, but
kk (36:34)
Okay. Okay.
Joey (36:38)
it would be like number like six or something. still pretty high. Me too.
kk (36:40)
I fucking love it. I love this song
so much. I would sell my children to hear it 1 more time. Just kidding. don't have to. don't have to. Just going.
Joey (36:47)
Stop that. You don't have to. You can just go.
and the live performance is the highlight of every show that I've seen. I just
kk (36:54)
Yeah.
Joey (36:57)
get so excited for it. I get I'm so ready for it every time. And it's always so good. So good.
kk (37:02)
She's so theatrical
with it. my god. It's so good
Joey (37:06)
Yeah.
Matty (37:08)
I mean, like lyrically, musically, there are so many surprises in this song. Vocally, there are surprises. I you know, we have been taking to screaming I'm not asking at each other a a lot a lot on this tour,
Joey (37:25)
Ha ha ha.
kk (37:25)
Hahaha!
Matty (37:28)
which is so fun. And like this like for that reason alone, I ranked this song number 2. I'll be transparent. I I
kk (37:36)
Good for you. I love it.
Joey (37:37)
Mm.
Matty (37:38)
I think it is that good. I think it is 1 of the all time best
openers that she's done. And yeah.
Joey (37:43)
Me too. It's so epic. It's so rich. It's
so it goes so many places. I love it. Funny
Matty (37:49)
It's so
it's strong. It just it has balls.
kk (37:51)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (37:53)
You know, it's a ball ballsy song.
Joey (37:53)
Yeah, yes.
It's a ballsy song. I have to give a shout out to my cousin Lauren who told me that since seeing the Tori shows, she's like, I I I it's 'cause I have a colleague, or or somebody just to email professionally named Courtney and she says, And all I can hear is is Courtney. She said, I just hear it in that voice all the time and
kk (38:16)
Thank you.
Joey (38:17)
she's like, I just like almost like
She goes, have to stop myself from saying it that way.
kk (38:19)
you
Joey (38:21)
I feel and I know exactly what she means, you know? Yeah.
kk (38:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (38:24)
So, so, so, so good. yeah, I'm curious. I want to look up and just see. Matty put Shush at number 2 on his list. Kristen put her, you put a number three, and I had it at number six, and I contemplated putting it higher, but I swapped it a few times. so yeah. Yeah.
kk (38:42)
Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah.
Joey (38:48)
Really incredible. Okay, and yeah.
kk (38:48)
I can't wait to hear it again. Yay!
Joey (38:51)
So coming in
Matty (38:52)
Soon.
Joey (38:52)
above Shush is bliss.
kk (38:57)
Sure, yes, a classic, iconic, opener, great album. I killed my monkey. Yeah.
Joey (39:04)
Yeah, so good.
Matty (39:04)
Zero zero zero notes on Bliss. Bliss is fucking
great.
Joey (39:08)
Bliss is awesome. It's
Matty (39:09)
It and
this bliss to me takes it it takes sort of like the direction that Kristen was talking about with Pretty Good Year. For me on this record,
kk (39:18)
huh.
Matty (39:18)
Bliss feels like a really natural extension of Choir Girl, but but taken
Joey (39:23)
Yeah.
Matty (39:24)
to you know just the next degree. It like a notch up. It's it it really and it's also a great kind of I I know the lyrics are a little crazy. I mean, opening a an album with the lyrics Father, I killed my monkey.
Joey (39:38)
Yeah.
Matty (39:39)
It's out there, but Bliss at the core is a pretty straightforward rock song.
Joey (39:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Matty (39:46)
w at at the core and a great choice of a single, a great choice of an opener for Venus. you know, you have those sort of celestial wind noises, the swirling
Joey (39:56)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (39:57)
winds of Venus, that put it sort of in outer space, which is really interesting. So a rock song in outer
Joey (40:04)
Yeah.
Matty (40:04)
space is totally something I'm into.
kk (40:07)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (40:08)
Also, I'm trying to do it in my head really quickly, but I
No, I guess Beauty Queen Horses doesn't technically have background vocals either. But there's something about Bliss that it just sounds like a live performance. You know what
kk (40:26)
huh.
Joey (40:26)
I mean? Like it sounds like a concert performance without an audience. and that is a really interesting way to start the record.
kk (40:34)
Are you sure it's not because
of the video? Do you think that?
Joey (40:37)
Well, the video certainly emphasizes that band
kk (40:39)
Okay.
Joey (40:40)
celebration, but Bliss feels like, you know, sung sung straight
kk (40:44)
just finding things to fight over.
Joey (40:47)
well, we don't have to fight. We don't I don't have to fight.
kk (40:49)
We can.
Joey (40:50)
sung straight through and it's like it feels like w just 1 performance, no frills,
Okay, I have to now send y'all the the three way tie
sheet.
Matty (41:04)
Mm.
Joey (41:06)
so you
kk (41:06)
Can we just fight
about it?
Matty (41:07)
No, we have to vote.
Joey (41:09)
No, there's three, so we have to vote for this. I I'm gonna I'm gonna text you the form right now and you guys need to vote. I'm send
kk (41:15)
my god, live. It's like we're on American Idol.
Joey (41:18)
yeah.
Matty (41:18)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (41:19)
So obviously the three songs are Reindeer King, Spark, and Beauty Queen Horses. So
Matty (41:26)
Yeah.
kk (41:27)
my god.
Joey (41:28)
those are both tied, both had forty points.
So I've just sent you the form. Let's do it in real time. Let's vote. And I will tell you what hopefully we can break the tie and we don't wind up in a situation where
kk (41:42)
break the chain.
Joey (41:43)
it's the, you know. So okay, I'll
kk (41:47)
Well, I
kind of just want to fuck with it. Wait, OK, this is like what we like our ranking right now today, personally.
Joey (41:55)
Yeah, so
Matty (41:55)
huh.
Joey (41:55)
now it's down to these three, so you have to rank these three.
kk (41:58)
Good
God. Okay. my God.
I
Matty (42:02)
Let's go.
kk (42:03)
hate this. I hate it. Okay. I
Joey (42:05)
Why? It's fun.
kk (42:06)
just can't. I don't even know. I don't even know if I agree with what I just did, but I put it in.
Joey (42:11)
All right.
Hm, let's see. Or 2 Okay.
kk (42:19)
Do you guys like how
I curled my hair like an angel witch today?
Matty (42:24)
Girl you wish.
Joey (42:25)
Shout
out to the girlies. You look great. Your hair is beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. All right. So
kk (42:27)
That is fucked up. Thank you. Let's move on. Bitch.
Joey (42:34)
I'm gonna say three, 2, and 1, and then I'll reorder them now the ties have been broken when I reread the list, okay?
So we have it all in the right sequence. coming in at number three is Reindeer King.
Matty (42:49)
Homophobic.
Joey (42:51)
It's so fucking high, Matthew. Number
kk (42:53)
no, it's okay.
Joey (42:56)
2 is Spark, and number 1 is Beauty Queen Horses.
Matty (43:01)
Mm.
kk (43:02)
That was
that was exactly my rating like that.
Joey (43:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. What do you want to say, Matthew? We know you have strong feelings about the reindeer.
kk (43:09)
Yeah, what are you going to say?
Matty (43:11)
I feel like you guys
Joey (43:14)
Yeah.
Matty (43:14)
are being hateful on purpose to me for some reason.
kk (43:18)
I did do
it, I did. I put it three, I didn't know if I agreed
Matty (43:21)
I think
kk (43:22)
with it. I knew Beauty Queen was 1 for me, sorry.
Joey (43:22)
Look look where pretty good
Matty (43:24)
I
Joey (43:24)
year got put by you fucking in the gutters. In the gutters. It is not.
Matty (43:26)
I was just gonna say this this is why you're doing that. I understand.
Joey (43:30)
Reindeer King, I'll tell you, Reindeer King for you was number 1. number four for Kristen. Number three for me. Quite high. Quite high.
I don't know what to say. I think this is good. This is this is a this is a good list.
kk (43:42)
There's been a shattering. There's been a shattering.
Joey (43:45)
Y'all are y'all are whack.
kk (43:49)
I'm good. I feel good. I feel good.
Joey (43:51)
Okay.
Matty (43:52)
Let's talk about
let's talk about your choice of beauty queen horses for number 1. Technically is Beauty Queen the song that opens
kk (44:00)
No, it's Beauty Queen
Joey (44:00)
No,
kk (44:00)
Horses.
Joey (44:01)
it's not they're on the same track.
kk (44:03)
Yeah.
Joey (44:05)
Don't try to don't try to cover technicalities here. It's not gonna work.
kk (44:06)
Yeah, don't.
We already went through this with Dragon, okay? Like, it is what it is.
Joey (44:10)
Yeah.
kk (44:13)
And you and I both know it's Beauty Queen horses.
it's weird, it's unsettling, walks you into a new world, it references an old world.
Joey (44:23)
Mm.
kk (44:24)
It's...
Joey (44:25)
That's good. That's good. I like that.
kk (44:26)
We love it. Narrative.
Matty (44:27)
That that's all that's all you need to say, I get it.
Joey (44:29)
Well also Rain Rain Reindeer King
and Beauty Queen horses feel quite connected to me in a lot of ways.
Matty (44:37)
I think so.
Joey (44:38)
they feel like sister songs. Spark is
such a special song. It feels like it Shush feels like it lives in the same space as a Spark. it's got some of that like
kk (44:52)
Yeah.
Joey (44:52)
it's it's rock, it's weird, it's passionate, it changes several times. It has sounds we never heard from her before. So Spark
kk (45:02)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (45:02)
is a really worthy
Matty (45:03)
And talk and talk about
sit talk about cinematic.
Joey (45:07)
yeah.
Matty (45:08)
Spark, I think, is 1 of Tori's most cinematic songs and that's saying a lot. My God.
Joey (45:11)
Especially with that incredible music video. Like it just
kk (45:13)
Yeah.
Joey (45:14)
reinforced how brilliant it was.
kk (45:17)
Very cinematic.
Joey (45:18)
Yeah. I'm happy with this list. Well no. Yeah.
Matty (45:21)
And and Spark also, just 1 more word about Spark. Spark
was when Spark came out and I I remember hearing that song in my car driving to work in Detroit, Michigan, on eighty nine X, the alternative radio station, out of Windsor,
Joey (45:36)
Wow. What do we
Matty (45:38)
out of Windsor, Canada, across the bridge. I know, and they that was,
Joey (45:40)
What a time. Wow. Amazing.
Matty (45:43)
you know, before you could buy it anywhere, they debuted it on the radio. And I remember I pulled over.
Because I was like and I I was like in shock that that's what I was hearing. It was so new and so different
kk (45:56)
Hmm.
Matty (45:57)
and so much of a just an evolution from what she had done on Pele, which had already
Joey (46:03)
Yeah.
Matty (46:04)
just blown my mind completely. And here she is 2 years later doing s doing that again. Like there are so few artists who
Joey (46:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
kk (46:10)
Yeah.
Matty (46:13)
have the capacity to to provoke like that and to and to
And who have the chops to be able to execute on a vision like that, you
Joey (46:22)
Yeah.
Matty (46:23)
know?
Joey (46:24)
And I've said it before,
kk (46:24)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (46:25)
but it bears repeating that when we heard that she was gonna have a live band and people didn't know what you know, many people were like fatalistic about this in the community online. It was just like such a debate
kk (46:35)
Yes.
Joey (46:39)
and I think that it took a minute for people to get used to Spark. Spark is a fucking classic song now, but it took a minute for people to
settle in and be like, whoa, this is Tori, but you know,
kk (46:55)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (46:56)
it's it's so different. And and it's funny because though piano is not throughout the entire song, the piano that you do get is super strong, loud, like propulsive, dramatic. and I and I remember thinking that it it always felt strange to me that people were
apprehensive about a song like Spark when you went back to Pele and like the singles on Pele were Carlite Sneeze, Tallula, Hey Jupiter Dakota, like no not much piano to be found there, you know? So it's like it was funny how like there was sort of a because you know the rest of Pele is so piano forward that you sort of don't like
People didn't think like, well, maybe there's more piano on the rest of the record. Like it was just something that we were like blocked about, like so scared that the record was gonna be, you know, so different. And now you look back at it and you're like, it's just a quintessential Tori Amos now, you know.
Matty (47:58)
I think at that point too, people were so conditioned to seeing Tori by herself pretty much on
Joey (48:04)
Yes.
Matty (48:04)
stage, with the exception of having Caiton on the, you know, six
kk (48:07)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (48:07)
Yeah.
Matty (48:07)
the ninety six tour. But, you know, they were used to getting nonstop solo
kk (48:12)
Yeah.
Matty (48:12)
piano. And that's that's quite frankly being spoiled by by her
Joey (48:16)
Yeah.
Matty (48:16)
to to to think that you're gonna just get that for the rest of your life. And then you bring those expectations to the record, which is to
Joey (48:23)
Yeah.
Matty (48:24)
me, that's to me personally, that's crazy. You just can't do
kk (48:27)
Right.
Matty (48:27)
that.
You know, you can't expect somebody to be doing the same thing that they do live on record
Joey (48:32)
Totally.
Matty (48:33)
peri period.
kk (48:33)
I
we're not, I would say that we're not, at least historically have not been a fan. What?
Matty (48:38)
Wait, wait. Who who's we? Who are you saying we?
kk (48:42)
Everybody.
Joey (48:43)
The community.
Matty (48:43)
Everybody who
Okay
kk (48:44)
Wait, we
have not been a fan.
Joey (48:46)
Let her finish your sentence.
kk (48:48)
We have not been a fan base that deals well with change. Would you disagree?
Joey (48:51)
Yes, I agree with you.
kk (48:53)
Do you disagree with that, Matthew? We as a fan base.
Matty (48:57)
I don't like
Joey (48:58)
The
collective, yeah.
Matty (48:59)
I I
don't like to be a part of a any collective we.
Joey (49:02)
Ha ha ha.
kk (49:03)
I understand
that, but in this case, you unfortunately are. And I do think we've all grown. I think that we've all gotten better at understanding that she knows what she's doing. At that time, think it felt really different. And it's funny because it is classic Tori. Expect the unexpected.
Joey (49:19)
I will
say knowing Matty first online and then in real life for twenty
kk (49:23)
Hahaha
Joey (49:25)
five years plus, Matty is 1 of the few fans that I actually say was always very supportive of Tori changing and always
kk (49:32)
Always. Yeah.
Joey (49:33)
really into it and you always really trusted Tori. I think that's
kk (49:36)
Yeah.
Joey (49:37)
probably why you say, I'm not part of that week, 'cause I think you always really believed that she knew what she was doing
kk (49:42)
Mm-mm.
Joey (49:43)
and you felt like you were always with her. You were always going along for the ride. You never resisted.
kk (49:48)
He
was yelling at me when I said we before I even finished my sentence. So I disagree, but,
Joey (49:51)
I know, I know.
kk (49:52)
I do know that you're right. He's always been a fan of evolution, personal and musical. I love that.
Joey (49:57)
when we used to chat on the forums that you were always just a v a real advocate for like what Tori was doing next.
Matty (50:04)
what
Joey (50:05)
Always.
kk (50:05)
Always,
yeah, it's true.
Matty (50:05)
w
what's what's the point? You know, what's the point of l listening to somebody as much as we listen to them and having them do the same fucking thing all the time?
kk (50:15)
Well,
Joey (50:16)
Yeah,
kk (50:16)
I think
Joey (50:16)
yeah.
kk (50:17)
we did talk about this on other episodes and I do I understand it now because when I go back to like, you know, like how I missed Strange Little Tour because I was like not into the concept of a covers album, which is crazy. I think that we again, the collective we sorry not Matthew. When.
Joey (50:35)
Ha ha ha.
Matty (50:36)
I was gonna say
what do you mean what do you mean when you when you didn't didn't like it? You
kk (50:39)
Let me speak. Let me.
Matty (50:42)
still you still don't.
kk (50:43)
I do love it. She's been as a covers out. It's a Her own. It's I love it. OK. But I missed the tour and that's really hard to swallow. And it's also really hard to swallow that I missed a lot of the beekeeper tour. I want to show on that tour. Like these are these are choices we've made. OK. But for some of us who've had trouble with the changes I think it's because like if the woman and the music and her.
the entire thing is your lifeline, it's scary for it to change. But I think what she's proven over time is that change is beautiful and healthy. And I actually have a lot of respect for that, like not just in the musical sense, but in the personal sense that I like look up to her as a role model in how to evolve and age. I think she does it really beautifully and it's like, it's inspiring, honestly.
Matty (51:33)
How to
how to how to adapt or collapse?
Joey (51:36)
As she said. Yeah, yeah.
kk (51:36)
Yes, that is the motto of 2026 baby.
Joey (51:39)
Well, and and this tour is the tour to think about exactly what you just said, Kristen, like a model for how to age, how to change, how to adapt,
kk (51:45)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Joey (51:48)
how to still do what you do, but just in the
in the space and the body and the moment that you're in. Like she's just doing it all and it's
kk (51:58)
Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful.
Joey (52:01)
such it's so
Matty (52:01)
I like that. I like that.
Joey (52:02)
great. Yeah. Okay, should I reread this list now that we have it?
kk (52:06)
That's
yeah, let's should we go top to bottom or are we going?
Joey (52:09)
I'll go in descending order. Coming in at 15 is America, 14 is Yo George, 13, edition of Light Divided, 12 is Parasol, 11 is Amber Waves, 10, Shattering Sea, 9, Give, 8, New Age, 7, pretty good year.
kk (52:27)
You
Joey (52:28)
6, Crucify, 5, Shush, 4, Bliss.
3 reindeer king, two spark, and number one, beauty queen horses.
kk (52:37)
Beautiful.
Joey (52:38)
Okay, we're closing out the opening track and moving on to the closing tracks.
Matty (52:43)
Beautiful, says Kristen Keys, who speaks on behalf of every Tori Amos fan in the world.
kk (52:49)
I do we not love all of these songs? We're gonna make a playlist with all of them.
Joey (52:54)
Yeah. I
think the cl I think this closing 1 might be a little more controversial among listeners for the cl for the closing. Yeah.
Matty (53:00)
Great.
kk (53:01)
You were
rage baiting in this episode. raging
Matty (53:05)
My cortisol is raging, what can I say?
Joey (53:07)
Ha ha ha.
kk (53:09)
cord is all summer,
Joey (53:12)
all right. So here we go. Are we ready? This was more
kk (53:15)
ready.
Joey (53:17)
this so this was more of a decisive list. There was only
1 tie that I actually think we can
kk (53:24)
interesting.
Joey (53:25)
and if you guys want to vote in the real time, we can do it because that's kind of fun.
kk (53:28)
Yeah.
Joey (53:29)
But okay, I'll do that for that 1 because it's more because it's like higher up. but
kk (53:33)
Yeah, if it's higher up, I think
it's, yeah.
Joey (53:35)
But
generally speaking, these this was more these this was more decisive, but most of the list, the numbers are quite close to each other.
kk (53:47)
Okay.
Joey (53:47)
so coming in at number 15 is Invisible Boy.
Matty (53:55)
interesting.
Joey (53:58)
would somebody like to chat about Invisible Boy?
Kristen had it at number 15, and Matty and I both had it at number 14. So there was real consensus here. I've I've spoken on the previous episode about Geraldines that I think invisible boy is beautiful, but I I I would have put Forest of Glass as a closer. for
kk (54:20)
Mmm.
Joey (54:21)
me it's not as
It doesn't work for me quite as well as Selkie and Weatherman do and you know, if we're thinking about those solo songs and oysters, of course. I again I think it's beautiful and I love the sentiment behind it in the story. but yeah, it's just it's not 1 that I go back to.
Matty (54:45)
Same.
kk (54:46)
Yeah,
Joey (54:47)
Yeah.
kk (54:47)
I think
that's right. think vocally she's doing some really cool things on it. But yeah, it doesn't, it's just not 1 that, yeah, maybe it's just that I don't go back to it. You know, there are some songs that even closing an album that I really seek out if I don't want to
Joey (55:03)
Yeah.
kk (55:04)
listen to the whole album.
Joey (55:06)
I'd be happy to hear it live. We heard it live in Austin twenty fourteen. It was beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I don't think she's done it in a while. Yeah.
kk (55:08)
She seems to love to play it. Yeah. She does a great performance of it. Yeah.
So, yeah. All right.
Joey (55:18)
Yeah, but it's just something's something's gotta be last, you know? Okay. Coming in number fourteen, just 1 point apart from Invisible Boy, is toast.
kk (55:31)
Okay.
Joey (55:33)
we have let's see. We have toast. Again, that 1 was pretty close. Matty had it Matty and I both had it in last place. And Kristen,
kk (55:48)
Okay.
Joey (55:48)
you had it a little bit higher at number twelve.
kk (55:51)
Okay. I mean, I think it's a beautiful closer generally. I think it fits for that
Joey (55:59)
Yeah.
kk (55:59)
album. I'm surprised that y'all put it last. That does surprise me. But with kind of graveyard-esque in
Joey (56:10)
Mm-hmm.
kk (56:10)
its shortness, its somber, I think it fits the album really well, which is why maybe I ranked it
Joey (56:16)
Very beautiful. Yeah.
kk (56:18)
little bit higher. Yeah.
Joey (56:20)
I also think that it's interesting when you get like Invisible Boy seems to my understanding is that about Mark and the death of his father, I believe.
kk (56:29)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (56:30)
and Toast is about the death of Tori's brother.
kk (56:33)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (56:34)
and so to me it's interesting for me that I put on the 2 lowest that those songs that are very intimate, grief-driven songs.
kk (56:43)
Yeah. Does it maybe feel too personal or
something?
Joey (56:45)
Maybe, yeah, maybe there's
something about it that I I I feel like I really respect and pl like, you know, I admire that it's there and I think they're beautifully composed. but they're yeah, they're just not maybe it feels like I just don't need to revisit them because of their Yeah. Yeah.
kk (57:04)
Yeah, there's the finality there. also think
that 1 thing I love about toast, and I think Tori does this really well, reminds me of Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, the concept
Joey (57:15)
No, yeah.
kk (57:15)
of like, you know, a toast, raise a glass in your honor, and it is so sad. You want to, you know, the celebration of life, which is also devastating. And she does that so well. And I do appreciate that.
in that song, she gets to cross really beautifully.
Joey (57:34)
Yeah. Also, it's not on our we chose not to put it on because of seasonal reasons, but I think that our new year as the closer from Midwinter Graces feels like an evolved, more realized
kk (57:50)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Joey (57:51)
version of this song. So so
kk (57:53)
I agree, yeah.
Joey (57:54)
even so, you know, in spirit, our new year certainly you know, yeah, yeah.
kk (57:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I could hear that. I like that.
Joey (58:02)
Okay, next.
Matty (58:04)
She
she really likes to leave us every album or many albums on a note n on a but
kk (58:08)
Devastated.
Joey (58:09)
Ha ha ha.
Matty (58:10)
not on a note of like pondering death.
Joey (58:13)
Yeah.
kk (58:13)
Well.
Joey (58:14)
Yeah, it's this is true. This
Matty (58:14)
I I mean yeah.
Joey (58:17)
is true. She's still she's still at it.
kk (58:17)
Today I was walking around the office.
Today I was walking around the office and I was like, man, isn't it just like fucked up that like we just gotta die 1 day? And then somebody's like, hey, Kristen. I'm like, hey. Like, what the fuck?
Matty (58:28)
That sounds like the Barbie movie.
kk (58:30)
Hey, Barbie. Do ever think about dying?
Joey (58:30)
Yeah. You exactly sound like Barbie
Good, that's good.
kk (58:39)
Anyway.
Joey (58:39)
Okay. So coming in above toast is birthday baby.
kk (58:44)
Mmm.
Joey (58:45)
birthday baby. Let's see. Matthew, you had it. Matthew and I both had it at number 13 and Kristen had it number fourteen. So we're all
kk (58:51)
Okay. Okay.
Joey (58:54)
I'm I'm impressed by our you know, how close we are on these so far. Yeah.
Matty (58:59)
Align alig alignment.
Joey (59:02)
Yeah.
kk (59:01)
alignment. I struggle
with where to put this 1 because I think it's a good it felt like the right closer in a COVID time, you know, like
Joey (59:11)
Yeah, yeah.
kk (59:12)
learning metaphorically, impossibly physically learning to find your own joy and celebrate yourself. And I and we know it was for Kelsey, which I love I just I love how much Tori loves her family. I think that is so sweet.
Joey (59:27)
Me too, me too. Me too.
kk (59:30)
So yeah, I struggled with having to place it maybe as low as it ended up. But again, we're ranking somebody. What do want to do? So yeah, but I thought that would be fun. It felt right for the time, for sure.
Joey (59:41)
I would love I would love to hear this 1 live. I would I would really like to hear it live actually. And she's never done it. yeah.
Matty (59:50)
Ma maybe she'll do it on her birthday at her birthday show.
Joey (59:54)
that'd be nice actually.
kk (59:55)
you know what? We don't even have to ask for that because you know somebody will do that. Ask away, guys.
Joey (59:59)
Sure, sure, sure.
1 thing that I'll say that 1 of the reasons that I put it lower, it's a it's a a nitpick, but it has such beautiful piano and it's mixed quite low. Matty just raised eyebrows. Never mind, never mind.
Matty (1:00:17)
As much as much as as much as I can.
kk (1:00:17)
What? I didn't know he can move his eyebrows.
Joey (1:00:22)
So coming in above birthday, baby, is number twelve, 1000 oceans.
Speak on it.
kk (1:00:29)
Where did we all have it? Let's start
Joey (1:00:31)
Okay.
kk (1:00:32)
there.
Joey (1:00:32)
I'll tell you. Matthew had it at number eleven. You had it at number thirteen. And I had it at number twelve. So again,
kk (1:00:41)
Okay.
Joey (1:00:42)
quite close. I love 1000 oceans. I love that it's like a simple, sweet song, like it's got a really like it's almost
a little too sentimental and then it does something a little weird and then it like and that's something that I really love about Tori.
kk (1:01:00)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:01:01)
and I just like the s the sort of spacey drumming that Matt does, Matt Chamberlain. I I mean, I really enjoy it. It's just again, I just had to make choices about where things went. But I think it's a really lovely song.
Matty (1:01:16)
I think it's a moment on the record that quite literally like brings you back to Earth. So when you're when you're listening to Venus and back,
Joey (1:01:23)
Mm, that's good. That's good.
Matty (1:01:26)
you're floating in space.
kk (1:01:26)
I like that.
Matty (1:01:28)
And, you know, when the astronauts reenter,
Joey (1:01:29)
Smart.
Matty (1:01:30)
they land in the water. So
there's there's your ocean. To me, that's what it reminds me of. That's the the visual that I get.
Joey (1:01:35)
That's so good. I never thought of that. That's
beautiful. Period.
Matty (1:01:40)
Thanks.
Joey (1:01:41)
Perfect. Perfect. Perfect.
kk (1:01:41)
Yeah. All right. Next.
Joey (1:01:44)
Okay. So coming in above 1000 oceans, number eleven is twinkle.
I've said before that in a lot of ways I feel like putting the damage on is the proper closer in my mind
kk (1:01:56)
Mmm.
Joey (1:01:57)
for Pele. Twinkle is a really stark moment. And in some ways, it feels like an interesting corollary to Beauty Queen sort of being kind of sparse and quiet.
kk (1:02:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (1:02:11)
but I think that yeah, I mean, I love it
It makes me think of my friend Annie who passed away about a decade ago. I think of her now when I think of that song. and and again it's beautiful and sparse, but also eerie she said, I killed a man, T I gotta stay hidden in this abbey. it's like Who is this character, right? It's like where like where are we in this final moment? This like beautiful moment of death and then murder.
but also it makes me go back to our whole conversation about me and a gun and Thelma and Louise, and
kk (1:02:50)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:02:51)
it feels like it echoes that sort of. Like it makes me think of that character from Me and a Gun sort of looking up at the night sky. So I really love it. I think it's a beautiful song, but for me in terms of closers, it feels like more of like a like an epilogue than the closer. Yeah.
kk (1:03:07)
could do that.
Matty (1:03:07)
Yeah. That's that's a I
think that's a really smart way to put it. I I and to me I've always just sort of like wondered like how can you follow up something like damage? You know, like
Joey (1:03:20)
Yeah.
Matty (1:03:21)
that's it it's such
kk (1:03:21)
sure. Yeah.
Matty (1:03:22)
a statement and then something so stark and lonely afterward, after all of those
Joey (1:03:29)
Yeah.
Matty (1:03:29)
sort of like very warm
sounds that you hear right before. I mean, I I understand why it's
kk (1:03:35)
Mm-mm.
Matty (1:03:36)
there, of course, but but
Joey (1:03:36)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matty (1:03:37)
but I just there's something that's always bothered me a little bit, if I'm being honest with you, about the audacity to follow up a s a song like putting the damage on
kk (1:03:48)
Like damage, yeah.
Joey (1:03:46)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:03:50)
with with a solo piano track. But I mean that's what we that's what we live for. That's what we love about Tori. We love those gags. We love to we
Joey (1:03:57)
Yeah.
Matty (1:03:57)
love to we love to question, you know?
Joey (1:03:59)
Yeah.
kk (1:04:00)
Yes.
Joey (1:04:00)
And I'm sure there was a world in which it had a place on the B side list and she was moving things around because it feels very much of the Pele B side world to me.
kk (1:04:12)
I mean.
Joey (1:04:13)
that
Matty (1:04:13)
Well
Joey (1:04:13)
graveyard that, you know, yeah.
Matty (1:04:16)
I if lore is to b be believed, she at 1 point thought about having cooling as the final track on Pele, if you'll recall.
kk (1:04:24)
That's too devastating. can't do a damage cooling situation. I can't.
Matty (1:04:31)
That would make more sense.
Joey (1:04:32)
That
kk (1:04:33)
It does. I
Joey (1:04:33)
it would it would make sense, yeah.
kk (1:04:35)
think that she probably thinks that Twinkle gives some hope, I think. I would disagree.
Joey (1:04:40)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cooling would be a really devastating way to end.
kk (1:04:43)
There's hope.
Joey (1:04:46)
I wish we
could hear the what would have been the Pele mix of cooling, because I think that the version
kk (1:04:53)
Sure.
Joey (1:04:54)
that we hear is remastered to sound
kk (1:04:58)
Like 98, yeah.
Joey (1:05:00)
like a choir girl song. so like louder and like a little like I just wonder what would be different. And I wonder if she had actually finished cooling. Like, you know, she you know, I don't know.
kk (1:05:11)
I don't know. We could ask her.
Joey (1:05:15)
Somebody must have at some point. but I don't know. Like I'm always a little bit curious. I'm a little bit conspiratorial when it comes to like the Beulah land, the never seen blue, the cooling. Like, are these really the
kk (1:05:27)
I Buel- I could hear Beulah Land
Joey (1:05:29)
versions that were done during the Pele sessions or, you know,
kk (1:05:33)
sure.
Joey (1:05:33)
does she redo something? but wow, imagine ending it with cooling.
kk (1:05:40)
I wouldn't I wouldn't be well
Joey (1:05:42)
I'm gonna listen to those 2 back to back later and see how it feels.
kk (1:05:45)
It doesn't feel good, I can tell you. Okay, let's move on.
Joey (1:05:48)
Okay. So coming in at number ten, right above Twinkle. but a few points higher is Carry.
kk (1:05:57)
Okay, where did we wait? What number are we on? Nine. 10. And
Matty (1:05:58)
Interesting.
Joey (1:05:59)
Yeah. number 10, Carry. Yeah.
kk (1:06:04)
where did everybody rank it?
Joey (1:06:05)
I will tell you. So Matthew put Carry at number seven.
kk (1:06:11)
Okay.
Joey (1:06:12)
you put it at number eleven, and I put it at number
kk (1:06:14)
Okay.
Joey (1:06:15)
eight. Matthew and I being close there, I think push it up a little bit higher. I think it's such a beautiful song.
Matty (1:06:22)
I'm surprised you ranked it so low, Kristen.
kk (1:06:24)
I think I have trouble with the song. We talked about it on that episode.
Matty (1:06:26)
Mm, mm.
Joey (1:06:28)
Yeah, it's a hard song.
kk (1:06:30)
it feels different than the rest of the album to me. And
Joey (1:06:33)
Mm-hmm.
kk (1:06:33)
so there's something there that I feel in the music or hear in the music it feels separate somehow.
But also it
Joey (1:06:41)
Yeah.
kk (1:06:42)
was like my grandmother was very sick. She was dying. It was very devastating. It just like hit at that time. so it doesn't feel good to me. But yeah, even as a closer, it always felt a little separate. And I don't know if it's because like I like used that song as a vehicle for grief at that time. And so I separated it from the rest of the album. Like I actually was very careful when Shush was released before the album.
because I did not want to have it be separate from the rest of the album. I wanted to kind of have a similarly weighted experience, I guess. I didn't want to have listened to that
Joey (1:07:19)
Mm.
kk (1:07:20)
10,000 times. And so the rest of the album felt new and that felt old. I did that
Joey (1:07:25)
Yeah.
kk (1:07:25)
with Carry. So I think that's why.
Matty (1:07:29)
That's
a that's all valid.
kk (1:07:32)
That's all my personal problem, not like, yeah.
Joey (1:07:32)
Yeah. No, no, that that yeah,
yeah, yeah. And it's nothing about the quality of the song to you. You're saying the opposite actually, that's about the associations, it's about yeah. Yeah.
kk (1:07:41)
It's so painful, I mean,
I don't know if that's the point, like, message received on the song, you know?
Joey (1:07:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great.
Matty (1:07:50)
Any
any anytime I hear about tattoos in a Tori song, I always think of Daisy. so this song now reminds
kk (1:07:57)
Yeah. I love that.
Joey (1:07:57)
Mm, yeah.
Matty (1:08:00)
now reminds me of Daisy, you know? So it also has a painful connotation for me too. But I I d
kk (1:08:07)
I get that.
Joey (1:08:06)
Yeah.
Matty (1:08:08)
I think the lyrics are just achingly beautiful.
kk (1:08:13)
Yeah, think
Joey (1:08:13)
Yeah, yeah.
kk (1:08:15)
I have in my tattoo, I have my grandmother's initials like hidden in the little
Joey (1:08:20)
Mm.
kk (1:08:21)
rose or sorry, in the poppy. that line is so devastating to me.
Joey (1:08:26)
Yeah.
kk (1:08:26)
I like can feel it in my body even just like thinking of the lyrics. So yeah, I'm with you.
Matty (1:08:31)
we're gonna cry soon enough.
kk (1:08:32)
I'm not crying tonight, I'm saving it for my next show.
Joey (1:08:35)
so the next 1 is our tie. So I'm s
kk (1:08:39)
Ooh.
Joey (1:08:40)
so I'm sending you the tiebreaker form. and the tie
kk (1:08:43)
Okay.
Joey (1:08:44)
and the tie here is Mary's Eyes and Pandora's Aquarium.
kk (1:08:52)
gosh, okay.
Joey (1:08:52)
So
take a moment and br let's break this tie.
Matty (1:08:58)
Break the chain.
Joey (1:09:00)
Okay, it's in. Y'all did it. All right. So we are breaking the tie. So now coming in at number nine is
Pandora's aquarium
and coming in at number eight is Mary's Eyes.
kk (1:09:13)
So
you guys both chose Mary's eyes over Pandora? Okay. I did the opposite.
Joey (1:09:16)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matty (1:09:17)
Yes. That
kk (1:09:19)
Again, y'all broke my tie.
Matty (1:09:21)
I think it's for me an easy choice. Not only be I
Joey (1:09:23)
Me too. Me too.
kk (1:09:23)
Hmm.
Matty (1:09:25)
mean, not only because Native Invader's was such a top record
kk (1:09:28)
Yeah.
Matty (1:09:28)
for me and all of that, but I I was thinking about Mary's Ice specifically when we were ranking because I wanted to rank it higher. Truly.
kk (1:09:38)
Yeah.
Matty (1:09:38)
I wanted it to be even higher than it is because I started thinking about the circumstances of that song and you know,
kk (1:09:44)
God.
Joey (1:09:44)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:09:45)
it was being written while Tori was doing promotion for Audrie and Daisy.
Doing an Oscar campaign for the song and on the road talking about the movie everywhere for us.
kk (1:09:57)
you
Matty (1:09:58)
at the same time, you know, she was dealing with the tremendous personal tragedy. Her mom
kk (1:10:05)
Yeah.
Matty (1:10:05)
was in the hospital. And to be able to create that kind of art, that kind of beauty, it's so special. And to get that kind of window into something so personal, but yet so universal.
just again speaks to Tori's generosity as a writer, as a performer. and I'm just astounded that anyone could have the presence of mind to to be able to record that and do that song given those circumstances. It's it's gotta
kk (1:10:38)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:10:38)
take a really extraordinarily gifted and visionary person to be able to turn that
Joey (1:10:42)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:10:43)
pain into something that other people are going to find beautiful and uplifting. It's very special.
kk (1:10:49)
Yeah, think you're right.
Joey (1:10:51)
Beautifully said. and to talk about Pandora for a second, you know, I've always been very honest that like Pandora's the song that feels very separate from Choir Girl for me. Like I I may, you know, I may have voted to put Cooling as the closing track on Choir Girl and put Pandora
kk (1:11:09)
You
Joey (1:11:10)
as a B side. it it feels and to know there was a time when she considered Pandora to possibly be the opener of the album.
If it's to be believed with the order in the thing. but Purple People was also considered to be an opener at some point. And that wound up as a B side. So part of me also wonders what if Pandora were the B side and Purple People were the closer of the album? What would that be like, you know? so I don't know. I think it's a beautiful song. I think the lyrics are great. I think it's, you know, it has 1 of the most classic
final notes of a Tori song that you know, and
kk (1:11:47)
Good Lord. And the evolution
of that over the years, I love hearing it with Angel, which is now too. really like, ooh, yes.
Joey (1:11:53)
It's really nice to have it as a showcase for them. I think
it's so speaking of that generosity and Tori's smile while she's playing the piano and they're singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
kk (1:12:01)
and how it like terraces up, you know? it's so good. I don't know the words.
Joey (1:12:07)
so I I like I feel very fondly about the song, but it's to me, Choir
kk (1:12:12)
Yeah.
Joey (1:12:13)
Girl is such a strong album, but that closer has always felt a little bit Playboy Mommy feels more like the closer to me. But
kk (1:12:21)
I love Mary's Eyes, it also reminds me of my Grammy. It's so devastating to me. I think Tori's mom, from what we know about her, how she's talked about her, kinda like always reminded me of my Grammy. This cute little petite, very true Christian woman, like a real, you know, really like,
Joey (1:12:36)
Mm-hmm. A real Christian yeah.
kk (1:12:38)
a real Christian. And I just, yeah, it's also hard to listen to because of that. But also like you said, Matty,
Somebody said it, think, like, generous, that you could use that pain to, create something so beautiful for other people as well. I
Joey (1:12:54)
Yeah.
Matty (1:12:54)
It's so it's so personal.
kk (1:12:56)
know.
Joey (1:12:57)
It really
it really is. Yeah.
Matty (1:12:57)
You know, and and
I th I think as we get sometimes into Tori's later catalog, I think a lot of people who are fans tend to think that maybe some of the personal like the personalness has gone away from her records
Joey (1:13:14)
Yeah.
Matty (1:13:15)
or that intimacy, but
kk (1:13:16)
Uh-huh.
Matty (1:13:16)
I I would point them d directly at this song. Like like
Joey (1:13:17)
Not Yes, me too.
kk (1:13:19)
Yeah.
Matty (1:13:20)
I you know
Artists in general don't have to share every detail that's painful of their lives with their fans. You know,
kk (1:13:27)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:13:28)
they can experience that in private and have an artistic life that's completely separate. And even if Tori is not necessarily always talking directly about herself and her own life, she's obviously like woven threads of her real life into it. But this this song, this is her real life and it's her
kk (1:13:42)
Yeah. It's her mama. Yeah.
Matty (1:13:46)
mom. And, know, I think.
I I I just I I think it's really b i it it words escape me because it really is that special.
kk (1:13:57)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:13:57)
And it's also
not a coincidence that she has never performed it and probably never will. And I think it's because it's a devastating song, but there's also she is holding out hope to bring her mother
kk (1:14:08)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:14:09)
back. and we know that's not the way things ended up. So I think that yeah, it it's it's incredibly personal. It's incredibly personal and raw and beautifully, beautifully produced and piano's incredible. JPS's work on it is remarkable.
kk (1:14:26)
yeah.
Joey (1:14:26)
just
so beautiful, so like such incredible work. And again to book and invader with reindeer king and Mary's Eyes, which both feature work
kk (1:14:36)
Yeah.
Joey (1:14:37)
from JPS at the beginning and the end. I felt like Tori was very thoughtful in what she wanted to do and how she wanted him to contribute. So that's a real gorgeous pairing there.
so now at number seven, real men.
kk (1:14:57)
What was the hmmm for? Too low?
Matty (1:15:01)
It's I think it's pretty high actually.
kk (1:15:03)
what did you?
Joey (1:15:03)
Yeah, I we're we're
in our top ten now. Yeah.
kk (1:15:06)
I just didn't know if you thought it should be lower. the hmm.
Joey (1:15:11)
No, I
kk (1:15:11)
to be higher?
Joey (1:15:12)
if you think we're already skirting some rules by having the covers album in here, then maybe not. But Matty had it
kk (1:15:16)
No, no, I, I love, I probably ranked it
higher than both y'all is my guess. If I had to guess, I love real men.
Joey (1:15:21)
Let's see, let's see. I'll t you
you ranked it Kristen, you ranked it number seven, I ranked it number six, and Matty ranked it number ten.
kk (1:15:33)
Okay. That was his hmm hmm because he ranked it at 10. That wasn't me. That's true.
Joey (1:15:35)
So that was his hmm. Got it, got it. But it made his top ten. it's
it is an amazing song. It is Joe Jackson's song is great, but I think Tori improves on it in sort of ways that are hard to fathom because it doesn't quite make sense that her version could be to me
kk (1:15:57)
Yeah.
Joey (1:15:57)
more definitive, but it is. and I think his version is incredible. It's his song. But I don't know.
I think it's Tori's song. And
Matty (1:16:08)
And she says the F slur.
Joey (1:16:09)
which you love, yeah, yeah.
Matty (1:16:12)
I love it.
kk (1:16:14)
I find that uncomfortable as,
Joey (1:16:18)
No.
kk (1:16:18)
as a delicate woman, but she delivers it
Joey (1:16:24)
She sure says it, yeah.
kk (1:16:26)
in the right way. the song is so well executed. I love how you can hear the pedals too, when she's playing. It sounds so forceful. It's like being manhandled.
Joey (1:16:34)
Piano is so good, it's so urgent, it's so
it's like fast but delicate.
kk (1:16:38)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:16:39)
also, shout out to Adrian Belew whose guitar work is just fucking epic on that song. It's it sounds like it's just like soaring, it's triumphant, it's tragic, it's like it's everything at once, and the guitars really elevate.
Matty (1:16:56)
I always think that Tori is sort of like singing this song at like in the voice of a gay man. I know she did sort of like did sort of like
kk (1:17:04)
yeah, yeah.
Joey (1:17:04)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:17:06)
boy boy drag for the the record
Joey (1:17:08)
Yeah.
Matty (1:17:08)
or androgynous drag rather.
kk (1:17:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Matty (1:17:11)
But I think when she's singing this song, it's really her singing from the perspective of all of her gay friends. And we all know like Tor
kk (1:17:17)
Yeah.
Joey (1:17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:17:18)
Tori's legendary com like commitment to the gay community. She loves gay guys, loves gay men.
and was sort of like raised with gay men there, the ones who sort of brought her,
kk (1:17:28)
Yeah.
Matty (1:17:29)
lifted her up when, you know, when she was first starting out in the
Joey (1:17:31)
Yeah.
Matty (1:17:32)
piano bars in DC at the gay bars. so that's why I, you know, I don't have a problem with her saying words like that because I think
kk (1:17:41)
Right.
Matty (1:17:41)
I think I think she is singing it from our perspective.
Joey (1:17:45)
I agree.
kk (1:17:46)
think that's spot on and I think that's why it works, right? I think it's cool that she can give voice to hopefully all her, you know, gay friends when she's singing that. I love that.
Matty (1:17:59)
Now, I also don't think that it's you know, there are a lot of times there there have been other artists who have tried to use that word in their songs. Jewel, for example. Jewel
kk (1:18:09)
wait, what? Really?
Matty (1:18:11)
has a song where she says the F slur and to me it it seems very different. It doesn't s it seems stunty to me a little bit. Yeah,
kk (1:18:17)
Well, performative. huh.
Matty (1:18:19)
and I don't find it that way with Tori.
Joey (1:18:22)
Yeah, yeah.
kk (1:18:22)
I don't think it is here or in taxi, right? I think both ways it's very genuine
Joey (1:18:27)
Okay, number six and number five are just 1 point apart from each other. coming in at number six is Dragon and coming in number five is Lady in Blue.
Matty (1:18:40)
Ooh, okay.
kk (1:18:41)
I would flip those, but that's okay.
Joey (1:18:42)
They're 1 they're 1 point
they're 1 point apart. Let's see where we put them on our rankings. Matthew had Dragon at number eight. Kristen had Dragon at number five, and I had Dragon number five. So I cracked our
kk (1:18:56)
Okay.
Joey (1:18:56)
top fives. And Matthew had lady in blue at number 2.
kk (1:19:01)
Interesting.
Joey (1:19:03)
And you had lady in blue at number eight, Kristen.
kk (1:19:09)
Sure.
Okay.
Joey (1:19:09)
And
I had it in number si and I had it in number seven. So we both had Dragon above Lady in Blue.
kk (1:19:15)
Yeah.
Joey (1:19:17)
but yeah, but they're 1 point apart.
kk (1:19:19)
Yeah, okay. Both incredible songs.
Matty (1:19:21)
I
Joey (1:19:22)
Credible.
Matty (1:19:23)
I I still when I hear Lady in Blue, I get really excited by it. And
Joey (1:19:28)
Not.
kk (1:19:28)
Hmm.
Matty (1:19:29)
there's that moment at the end when the piano just starts kicking in after I
kk (1:19:32)
Yeah.
Matty (1:19:33)
can play too. And for a long time, like we all know it's a good song, you know, it's got those great keyboards at the beginning, those floating sort of ephemeral, is that the right word? Yeah.
Joey (1:19:44)
The mellotron sound, yeah.
Matty (1:19:46)
And when we were talking to John Phillips Shenale about
his favorite songs. I remember he brought this up and I was really surprised. And I
kk (1:19:54)
Hmm.
Matty (1:19:54)
remember he said that he sort of wished that he had a chance to play on it. And
Joey (1:19:59)
Yeah, he had different ideas for it, yeah.
Matty (1:20:02)
and you know, I've always thought of it as, you know, it's it's a fairly straightforward song, structure wise, you know, in a lot of ways. But when we talked to John Phillip Shenale about his enthusiasm for the song, it sort of gave me permission to love it as much as I actually do.
Joey (1:20:19)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:20:19)
And
it's it's 1 that I love hearing live. I love hearing it on the record. I never skip it when Best of Troy Amos playlist serves it to me. I listen to the whole thing. Right, of course.
kk (1:20:27)
You're not allowed to skip best sceptor, Amos. Yeah. Yeah.
Joey (1:20:32)
Well, also the fact that Lady in Blue, the first time that we heard it was when she performed it at South by Southwest and there was somebody recorded
kk (1:20:40)
Right.
Joey (1:20:40)
it and it was solo piano and then you get the album version. I fuck Okay, thank you, Saker.
kk (1:20:43)
I think it was Saker who recorded it, by the way, probably.
Joey (1:20:48)
But I I've said it before, I fucking love that about Tori. I love getting like a song
kk (1:20:51)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:20:52)
that's so different live, and then you get the album version. And I I love that she's essentially doing 2 versions of it, you know, in the same
kk (1:21:00)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:21:01)
breath. And I've I've I gotten to hear it solo and I've gotten to hear it with the band a few times. And I just I think it's great. I think it's great. What a closer.
Matty (1:21:12)
Wow. Are we now into the top five?
Joey (1:21:16)
yeah, we didn't talk much about Dragon though. We leapfrogged Dragon
kk (1:21:15)
Let's go.
Joey (1:21:19)
to talk about Lady in Blue, but Dragon is 1 of my all-time favorites. I'm obsessed with that song. Tori,
kk (1:21:23)
favorite song. Yeah, favorite song.
Joey (1:21:25)
please play it. It belongs here on the Dragons tour. We need it.
kk (1:21:27)
I don't understand what's happening.
Why don't we have it? Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Joey's in trouble.
Matty (1:21:30)
Fun fun fun fact, we were recently backstage to visit to visit Tori Amos after the Dallas show
Joey (1:21:35)
huh.
Matty (1:21:38)
and I had to physically pull
Joey (1:21:39)
I'm proud.
Matty (1:21:40)
Joey out of Tori Amos's dressing room because he was asking her to play Dragon.
kk (1:21:44)
He was
harassing her. left
Joey (1:21:45)
L okay.
kk (1:21:46)
and he ran back.
Joey (1:21:48)
Listen, listen, I tur listen, I turned back to her and she grabbed my hand to say, What is it? Like what
like what? Like what? And I said, Where is dragon? It belongs on this tour. And she gave me that look that was like, yeah, I forgot about that song. It was almost like a you're right, like, okay, I'll think about it.
kk (1:22:09)
There's no
way people haven't been like, the fuck is Dragon?
Joey (1:22:12)
I'm sure,
I'm sure. But she had a you know, they make it sound like I ran back in past security. It was I turned around and she took my
kk (1:22:17)
You did. You basically did. No.
Joey (1:22:20)
hand 'cause she knew I had 1 more thing to say.
kk (1:22:22)
You we were down the hall and you ran back screaming into her room.
Joey (1:22:24)
That's not true.
You're crazy. go back to our
kk (1:22:30)
now.
Joey (1:22:31)
ADP episode. I all three of us gush about Dragon quite a bit. it's a great fucking song. Yeah. Also intri
kk (1:22:38)
But please do play it. We would like to hear it. At least once.
Joey (1:22:43)
interesting that the 2 songs that we're back to back here both have the mellotron sample on keyboard prominent.
kk (1:22:51)
Mm-hmm. I love that.
I like that
Joey (1:22:53)
in
the songs and I think I'm just really into mellotron. iieee has it.
kk (1:22:59)
I like it.
Joey (1:22:59)
she plays it I think
Matty (1:23:00)
Yes.
Joey (1:23:01)
she plays it on Take to the Sky Upside Down. It's just really I'm a big fan of some mellotron. Okay. and it technically mellotron is the is what's used on Spark as well, but it's just sounds different than
kk (1:23:17)
okay.
Joey (1:23:19)
that sort of flute sound that we're accustomed to. Okay, now we're in top four.
kk (1:23:25)
Okay.
Joey (1:23:25)
All right. And the four and three are a few points apart and then 1 and 2 are just 1 point apart. So coming in at number four is little earthquakes.
kk (1:23:37)
Okay, people are gonna be mad.
Joey (1:23:37)
I love I love the
I love little I mean how ma I mean come on we're we're in top four now. I adore I
kk (1:23:40)
I don't know, I don't know what you want.
Joey (1:23:45)
had little earthquakes at number four. Matthew had it at number five and you had it at number six. So we were all very close. but I mean we're getting to like we're getting to really
kk (1:23:55)
Ooh, don't out me as a number six. I mean, look, I know we're in the top.
Joey (1:24:01)
rarefied air here. Like this is like yeah.
kk (1:24:03)
I think it's an incredible closer.
Joey (1:24:06)
I always love it. I always love
Matty (1:24:07)
Rem
Joey (1:24:07)
to hear it.
Matty (1:24:09)
remember when I ranked the album Little Earthquakes really low in the album rankings? This
kk (1:24:13)
We do. Yeah.
Joey (1:24:14)
Yeah.
Matty (1:24:14)
was me trying to make up for that because this this song,
Joey (1:24:17)
Ha ha.
kk (1:24:17)
I see.
Matty (1:24:18)
like, think about it. When you first heard the title track of Little Earthquakes closing out the record, like it leaves you absolutely breathless.
kk (1:24:26)
yeah.
It's insane. All that building, those like the layering, the urgency and the breathing. Yes.
Joey (1:24:36)
And that sigh at the end, that that
Matty (1:24:38)
Mm.
Joey (1:24:39)
these little earthquakes at the end, it's like it's
kk (1:24:42)
And it
has been cool to see it on this tour. It's great with the background
Joey (1:24:44)
It's really good on this tour.
kk (1:24:48)
vocalist, but I've really enjoyed like looking around in the venue when it's being played and just seeing people take it in, you know, it's good.
Joey (1:24:55)
Yeah.
Matty (1:24:56)
When
I when I first heard this song, I was going through a goth phase. So when she said we danced
kk (1:24:59)
Ooh.
Joey (1:25:00)
Hmm, perfect.
Matty (1:25:01)
in in graveyards with vampires
kk (1:25:02)
Graveyard.
Matty (1:25:03)
till dawn, I was like, my God, fuck yes, you know?
Joey (1:25:07)
I'm sure Give Me Life, Give Me Pain, Give Me Myself Again was
kk (1:25:07)
You got out your black eyeliner.
Joey (1:25:11)
probably all over your notebook.
kk (1:25:14)
Dude, those lyrics are fucking incredible though.
Joey (1:25:17)
It's so good. Ugh, I want to hear it right now. all right. So coming in at number three.
Yes, Anastasia. Hmm.
kk (1:25:30)
Is that like a,
that's too low?
Matty (1:25:34)
From Joey it is.
kk (1:25:35)
Joey didn't put
Joey (1:25:35)
Well
kk (1:25:36)
a number 1.
Joey (1:25:36)
I put it at number three. Kristen put it at number 2 and you put it at number four. So we weren't that far from each other. what can I say? It's up it's epic. Yes, Magnum Opa's epic. No notes. We are
kk (1:25:42)
Okay. I think it's a beautiful, it's a, yeah, it's a magnum opus, the end. Yeah.
Matty (1:25:48)
Th no problems with it whatsoever.
Joey (1:25:52)
we are lucky that that song exists and that she gave it to us. It's incredible.
Matty (1:25:57)
Insane.
That that song could be a movie in itself.
Joey (1:26:01)
And the and I love ending l under the pink with Come along, little darlings, come along with me. It's that me and the
kk (1:26:11)
I know.
Joey (1:26:12)
strings is so chilling. And I don't know if she intended for it to be scary or haunting, but it always freaks me out and I love it so much. And then the we'll see how brave you are at the end. It's just so good. It's so good. It is a phenomenal song.
kk (1:26:27)
I would follow that bitch anywhere. So I'm ready. I'm not haunted by the come along with me. I'm like, I'm right there. I'm already right there.
Joey (1:26:36)
I would like to I would like for you guys to guess whether 23 peaks is number 1 or if gold us is number 1. One point apart,
kk (1:26:43)
23 or Goldust and they're only 1 point apart.
Joey (1:26:50)
Matthew, what do you think is number 1?
Matty (1:26:53)
Think it's 23 peaks.
Joey (1:26:56)
Kristen, what do you think?
kk (1:26:58)
I think it's 23 peaks though I voted for Gold Dust.
Joey (1:27:01)
Okay. So just 1 point apart. Coming in at number 2 is 23 peaks. Gold gold dust. Gold dust is number 1.
kk (1:27:15)
Okay, wait, so what did you guys put 23 and gold dust at?
Joey (1:27:20)
Kristen, you and I put Goldust as number 1.
kk (1:27:23)
and 23.
Joey (1:27:24)
I put 23 Peaks as number 2, and you put it at number three, and Matthew, put it at
kk (1:27:27)
Okay.
Joey (1:27:28)
number 1.
kk (1:27:29)
Okay, so I messed this up because I put 23 at number three. I know, I'm just saying. Also a magnum opus. Jesus Christ. I don't...
Joey (1:27:32)
It's not a mess up. Gold gold I think gold dust deserves the edge just slightly. But also Magnum Opus. But twenty-three peaks is a different kind of Magnum Opus. I mean,
it's it's they're so different from each other too, you know?
kk (1:27:50)
20, I, yeah, I almost wonder too, did I rank it a little lower than I would, because it's new and I'm trying not to have recency bias. mean, 23 Peaks fucks me up
Joey (1:28:01)
Mm.
kk (1:28:01)
in all kinds of ways. Is it?
Joey (1:28:04)
Well, and to have
a album closer this long after that album closer like r you know, race up to number 2 is pretty impressive, I think. Yeah.
kk (1:28:12)
Right. Yeah. 24 years apart. Yeah, that's true.
23 peaks.
Matty (1:28:23)
I I just I think that when we are this deep into Tori's catalog at this stage of her career, it's really crazy to me that she can still totally shock us in the way that she shocked us
Joey (1:28:39)
Yeah.
Matty (1:28:40)
with 23 Peaks. I have a lot of respect for the vulnerability and for the the realness and for the frankness that she brings to that song, but also the the mysticism and the
the the lore and the reinvention of of Tori as an artist in this song is so
kk (1:28:59)
Yes.
Matty (1:29:01)
so
Joey (1:29:01)
Yeah.
Matty (1:29:01)
commendable and so staggering. I just you know, the h the whole album surprised me, but when we get to the final track, I just I I couldn't believe it. And there's no piano on it also. Let's mention that, you know?
kk (1:29:13)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:29:14)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
kk (1:29:18)
I don't know if we talked about it in our track by track, but you guys had listened to the album like just a few more hours before me or maybe like maybe an hour before me. So I was slightly behind and in group chat you kept being like, she hasn't even gotten to 23 yet. And I kept like kind of rolling my eyes. was like, I mean, I'm sure I'm sure I'm gonna love it. like they both love it. I'm gonna love it. And I was like, I, yeah.
Joey (1:29:46)
You couldn't believe just how yeah.
Matty (1:29:47)
I
I wanna just say though, like I don't even know if I love the song. I don't know I don't
kk (1:29:51)
I can't.
Matty (1:29:53)
know if that's a way to describe it. Like I'm in awe of that song. You know, it's it's yeah, go ahead. Yes, it's painful to listen to.
kk (1:29:56)
Yes. Yes, it hurts.
Joey (1:29:57)
i this the song hurts, you know? It hurts. It hurts to listen to.
kk (1:30:05)
Wait, hold on.
Joey (1:30:05)
and what?
kk (1:30:06)
If you really want to feel something, okay. If you need to feel something, at like 4 a.m. also, when I was thinking, when I asked Tori Amos if she was an insomniac, at 4 a.m. if you really need to feel something, you pop an edible. Well, hopefully at three you've popped the edible, so it's kicked in by four. And you just like go into your living room with all the lights off and you put fucking 23 peaks on your headphones, you will feel some shit, okay? The end.
Joey (1:30:31)
Okay. You're com
you'll commune with your Dragon kin. I wanna say everything that Matty said about twenty-three peaks, I think in a very different way you can apply so much of that to gold dust. 'Cause
kk (1:30:47)
Yeah.
Joey (1:30:47)
gold dust is also surprising. I think that even though it fits more conventionally, like okay, closing track, ballad.
swimming in strings, like we think we understand what it is, but it's not. It's about this other evolution. It's her as a mother. It's her at the end of this journey. So both of these songs, it's not a coincidence, I think, that Scarlet's Walk and Twenty Three Peaks, you know, are both these sort of like road trippy albums. but 1 is 1
kk (1:31:18)
right. Yeah.
Joey (1:31:19)
is surrealist and 1 is very much
grounded in reality, but there it's about a transformation. And in both songs, the transformation is this this this this being coming out of her body, right? It's this it's the blades
kk (1:31:34)
Yep, and both of them.
Joey (1:31:36)
coming out of her. It's this other version of her sort of escaping and transforming her. And in this case, she is transformed by birthing this you know, birthing this
child which which when she was doing the ninety second street Y QA in 2 thousand 1, I remember her saying that being pregnant
was beautiful, but also felt like an invasion, like that
kk (1:32:04)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:32:05)
you have this something is taking over your body and
kk (1:32:07)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:32:08)
you are sort of at its whim and you can't control when it comes out of you and what it's doing inside of you. And that's true of this Dragon, right? And it's not a coincidence that like she's talking
kk (1:32:16)
And if it's making you sick.
Joey (1:32:18)
yes. And also, yes, making you sick and also because she has said herself that the Dragon is also this postmenopausal Tori. And you look at the Tori who births her daughter
Right. And this is a different moment in your fertility and reproduction. And so to have those 2 together, birthing the child, sort of the, you know, what at 1 point was probably for Tori thought of as like peak woman.
to birth a child and now it's like be like peak woman, 23 peaks, is very is it's this other thing. She's this other thing now. and another kind of woman, this Dragon woman,
kk (1:32:55)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:32:56)
right? This half Dragon, half woman thing. So they actually mirror each other in very surprising ways.
Matty (1:33:02)
It's giving
me like David Cronenberg levels of body
kk (1:33:05)
Yes.
Matty (1:33:06)
horror, what you're talking about right now. Like how how being a woman
Joey (1:33:06)
Yeah, yeah.
Matty (1:33:10)
your body goes through absolute hell. Like that's what she's talking about in both
Joey (1:33:14)
Yeah.
Matty (1:33:15)
of these songs, truly.
kk (1:33:17)
Yeah, think also like, yeah, Only Woman Bleed, baby.
Joey (1:33:18)
Women suffer all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
kk (1:33:23)
I was thinking about it when I was ranking these 2 songs, thinking about, because obviously there's a lot of themes of death
Joey (1:33:32)
Yeah.
kk (1:33:33)
with toast and there's a few other. But I think when you're pregnant,
like the veil between life and death is like at its thinnest. And it's like something I thought about a lot when I was pregnant. And especially like in birth, like when that line from 23 Peaks, she went there to heal, but did she die? Like that's something that I, like it's weird, because it's not like an, it doesn't exactly match to childbirth or something like that. But it reminds me of that too, because you really, you do emerge differently and you're in an incredible amount of physical pain where you don't even feel like you're on this earth anymore.
And so, but it's like this thing that every, you know, it's happy, you leave with a baby, but you've gone through this transformation that is very difficult to explain. And so I think like that theme of like the veil being Venice and evolution she has in a lot of songs, but especially these. I like that there,
Joey (1:34:29)
Yeah.
kk (1:34:29)
I didn't think about them being, you know, 25-ish years apart. Like that's pretty
Joey (1:34:34)
Yeah.
kk (1:34:34)
iconic too, that she still is exploring these themes in her music and with us in a way that
makes us feel a lot, you know?
Matty (1:34:43)
It's interesting too, because I mean, you're bringing a perspective to this that Joey and I don't necessarily have as men, the physical part of of being a woman. And maybe that's the reason I'm so intrigued by both of these songs is because
kk (1:34:57)
huh.
Matty (1:34:57)
it's ex it's explaining
Joey (1:34:58)
Yeah.
Matty (1:34:59)
a a mystery to me that I'm never going to really know the the truth about. You know, I can hear
kk (1:35:05)
Yeah.
Matty (1:35:05)
about your experience, I can hear about, you know, Tori's experience with these things, but these are things that I'm never going to experience myself.
Right. So it's it's interesting to to hear her take on it and
Joey (1:35:16)
Yeah.
Matty (1:35:16)
you know, to hear your take on it too.
Joey (1:35:19)
And the thing about Tori that historically, since the beginning of her career, that she has discomfited mostly like the white straight male listener because she's been so unapologetically singing about what it means to be a woman, what womanhood is.
kk (1:35:39)
Mm-hmm.
Joey (1:35:40)
and it is and and she's found new ways to do it.
From twenty-eight years old to sixty-two years old. I mean, and she'll continue to find new ways to do it. So it's just 23 Peaks and Goldust, again, they they they share this interesting DNA, but they're both about becoming something other, right? and both equally emotional and poignant and
Painful too because the beauty of gold dust can feel painful too, you know? Like it's
kk (1:36:20)
Yeah.
Joey (1:36:20)
it's it it's it it's Yeah, yeah. It's yes totally, totally. It's already like
kk (1:36:22)
Well, how did it go so fast? You know, you're already looking in the rear view and
Matty (1:36:31)
memory is a double edged sword, you know?
kk (1:36:33)
Yes.
And that album was 24 fucking years ago. And it's wild that her daughter is a grown woman now, but also like that we've, you know, been fans this long and have seen her
Joey (1:36:46)
Yeah.
kk (1:36:47)
go through all of that too, and these songs. So, that's a weird, like kind of emotional, mind fuck thing too.
and hard, I don't know, like I had those moments when we were listening to Cooling live in Austin, I was having all those same kind of feelings of just, I don't know, passage,
Matty (1:37:07)
You know
kk (1:37:08)
evolution.
Matty (1:37:09)
Maybe that's why this tour is so emotional for all of us, right?
kk (1:37:13)
Yeah.
Matty (1:37:13)
Because of that double edged sword of of memory. You know, we're happy to be this far
Joey (1:37:17)
Mm-hmm.
Matty (1:37:18)
into it, but looking back, it's both
kk (1:37:20)
Yes.
Matty (1:37:21)
we have these joyous memories, but when you look back at those joyous memories, you realize, you know, they're not going to necessarily happen again.
kk (1:37:29)
Well, we can't
end on that, Devastate, because that's not true. We're riding this baby till the wheels fall off,
Joey (1:37:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
kk (1:37:38)
But it's weird. don't know. It was weird just thinking about how many shows we've been to, how many times we've done this together. And hopefully we just do it forever and the world explodes. I don't know.
Joey (1:37:52)
I hope Tori knows that we're we're gonna need her to be touring into her nineties for 'cause what what what are we gonna do otherwise?
kk (1:37:57)
She'll be fine with it. She'll be like that Barry Manilow
video, that Barry Manilow doing that shuffle. She's good. We need to get
Joey (1:38:03)
Hmm.
kk (1:38:04)
her in a flat though. We can't have heels.
Joey (1:38:07)
She
she is not she will come out with a cane and and heels if she has to. She will she will
kk (1:38:12)
my god, stilettos. Good lord.
Joey (1:38:15)
not give that up.
Matty (1:38:17)
remember what Mae West did when she was in her I think eighties. She was
kk (1:38:21)
What did she do?
Matty (1:38:22)
care she was carried out by a a group of like muscle boys onto the stage.
kk (1:38:26)
Ooh, I like that.
Matty (1:38:27)
So let's Yeah.
Joey (1:38:27)
That's very very Mariah Carey. Tori could take that
that cue. Yeah, yeah.
kk (1:38:31)
Yeah.
And that's a long time away. So we're good, but she needs to stop breaking her bones. That's the only thing. Yeah.
Joey (1:38:38)
She's
Matty (1:38:39)
Ha ha.
Joey (1:38:39)
she's been good. She's been good on this tour. Guys, this is great. What I hope
kk (1:38:44)
So fun.
Joey (1:38:44)
I hope I hope that listeners and viewers love this episode because I I think it's Yeah. Yes, yes, I'm sorry. Closing tracks. Okay, okay.
kk (1:38:53)
Do you wanna recap that, do you wanna go, yeah, descending order
and then we will link it in the show notes and yeah.
Joey (1:39:02)
Great. All
right. Number 15 is Invisible Boy. Number 14 toast, 13 birthday baby, 12 1000 oceans, 11 twinkle, 10 carry, 9 Pandora's Aquarium, 8 Mary's Eyes, 7 real men, 6 Dragon, 5 lady in blue, 4 little earthquakes, 3 yes, Anastasia.
2 23 peaks and 1 gold dust.
kk (1:39:37)
Amazing. Beautiful, says the collective
Joey (1:39:39)
Yeah.
kk (1:39:40)
fandom, except Matthew, who's not.
Matty (1:39:43)
You you heard it here, Kristen
speaks for everybody.
Joey (1:39:46)
Ha ha ha.
follow, subscribe, go to the merch store and come find us on our I I only have 1 more show left. I'll be I'll be at Red Rocks and
kk (1:39:58)
Yep. Me and Joey will be in Red Rocks. Me and Matty, where's after that? Albuquerque
to Berkeley, come say hi. If you need
Joey (1:40:09)
Yeah.
kk (1:40:10)
a Dragon Standard Time hat, I'm need you to buy that right now because if it doesn't come, there's nothing I can do about it. Right now I have about 20 of them in my suitcase and so that's great, but if you don't order it now, I cannot help you.
Matty (1:40:23)
And those twenty are basically spoken for.
kk (1:40:25)
They're
Joey (1:40:25)
I
kk (1:40:26)
there. Yeah, they are.
Joey (1:40:26)
know, I know. We have to, yeah, yeah,
yeah. We have to touch base about that. Okay.
kk (1:40:30)
I took 1, yeah.
Joey (1:40:31)
Yeah. Okay, thank you, everybody. Love you, Matty. Love you, KK. Night. Bye.
kk (1:40:35)
Love you. Okay, bye.
Matty (1:40:37)
Love you guys. Good night. Bye.