34 Is the American Heart Association Misleading Us About Coconut Oil?

Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers discuss a recent USA Today article citing The American Heart Association’s report advising against the use of coconut oil (http://bit.ly/USAToday_CoconutOil_AHA). However, could this study contain some flaws? Could the trusted, highly respected  AHA actually be skewing the results of their study?  Adam and Mike breakdown the data behind the recent AHA study and point out the obvious flaws that could be misleading the population to eliminate natural oils (such as coconut oil) for unnatural oils (such as canola oil). To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to [e-mail].  Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3.  To purchase Adam's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen If you would like to produce a podcast of your own just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at [e-mail]  

Show Notes

Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers discuss a recent USA Today article citing The American Heart Association’s report advising against the use of coconut oil (http://bit.ly/USAToday_CoconutOil_AHA).
However, could this study contain some flaws? Could the trusted, highly respected  AHA actually be skewing the results of their study?  Adam and Mike breakdown the data behind the recent AHA study and point out the obvious flaws that could be misleading the population to eliminate natural oils (such as coconut oil) for unnatural oils (such as canola oil).

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com
If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to [e-mail].
Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3.
To purchase Adam's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

34 Is the American Heart Association Misleading Us About Coconut Oil? Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

studies, saturated fat, people, trials, american heart association, podcast, eating, saturated, aha, bad, rejected, cardiovascular disease, adam, diet, inform, read, sheila, fat, fitness, coconut oil

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam
 

Adam  00:05

Interestingly, however, the AHA experts do not make the same efforts at all to scrutinize the trials, I do support their hypothesis. If I'm going to error, it's going to be saturated fat, a natural substance that human beings have been living with and evolving with since the beginning of time. People listen to this, I mean, and they're acting like juveniles. They have this idea that they can't let go of and damn it. I'm right. And I'm going to I'm going to skew it to show that I'm right. But you know what, this isn't a game. They're not cheating in a game right now. All right, that people's lives are at stake here and people and industries are at stake here. Millions and millions of people's health are at stake here. They're telling people to get rid of what is seemingly natural to human beings. Instead, eating things that are not natural that is not something we evolved I mean, like, we don't know we don't know but like God if we don't know don't make those kinds of huge recommendations like that. It's it's, it's scary.

 

Tim Edwards  01:19

Hey, inform nation Welcome to episode number 34 of the inform fitness podcast 20 minutes with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends and I really think today, this episode might be the first 20 minute episode we've had in quite a long time. And there are many reasons for that. One of them is the fact that Sheila Melody is actually off gallivanting around France as we speak, so she will not be joining us here.

 

Mike  01:45

Yeah, she's such a windbag. Anyway, she just like keeps on rambling and rambling around. That's why we're going like over 45 minutes

 

Tim Edwards  01:51

I know poor Sheila, she's she just keeps talking and she won't let us get a word in edgewise. She's throwing things at us that her radio right now listening to this.

 

Adam  02:02

listen to Mike, putting down Sheila without her being here to defend herself.

 

Mike  02:09

It was supposed to be like really ironic, because we all know that. I got nothing to say keep talking.

 

Tim Edwards  02:17

And Sheila always jumps in

 

Adam  02:18

Mike didn't think I was being sarcastic.

 

Tim Edwards  02:22

Well, of course, for those of you who are new to the podcast voices you are hearing, 

 

Mike  02:27

Well, I wasn't prepared to defend myself. So that's why...

 

Tim Edwards  02:33

you're hearing the voice of Mike Rogers, the general manager of inform fitness there at inform fitness headquarters.

 

Adam  02:40

The real windbag of this podcast.

 

Tim Edwards  02:43

I just can't keep my mouth shut. Also, of course, the man you just heard is the founder of inform fitness, Adam Zickerman and Adam. You know, a few episodes ago we were we spent a lot of time talking about your ketogenic diet, that 90 day journey that you embarked upon right towards the beginning of 2017. And you had tremendous results with this new diet plan. And we've yet to see your bloodwork results. I'm assuming that's coming pretty soon, but the items that you mentioned that you the food that you were eating on this diet, were some items that we've been told for decades, to stay away from saturated fats and such. And that is the title or the topic for today's podcast.

 

Adam  03:25

Yes, yes. So saturated fat, is has been vilified for the last 50 years and continues to this day to be vilified by the American Heart Association with a recent advisor they put out can't be more than a couple of weeks ago at this point. And I remember when it came out, Mike ran to me and said, Adam, did you see this? Right, Mike?

 

Mike  03:53

Yeah, yes, I was like, Adam, you see this? No, I Oh, yes. I think the just like that like Atos like Adam comma, pause. Did you see this?

 

Tim Edwards  04:05

just for effect right

 

Mike  04:06

Well, here's the deal. You know, something, you know, we're always bringing things to each other's attention. You know, when we see something published online, and frankly, the first thing I saw as about two weeks ago, was a headline that says, it turns out coconut oil is bad for you.

 

Tim Edwards  04:22

I saw the same thing

 

Mike  04:23

says the AHA and I was like, whoa, okay. All right. Well, I cannot wait to read this because,

 

Adam  04:30

ah, a American Heart Association as revered

 

Mike  04:34

right.

 

Adam  04:34

That's an institution.

 

Mike  04:36

That's what I get very excited about it. I've been excited to to actually read studies. I'm not just articles ever since I read good calories, bad calories by Gary Taubes about I don't know, like about 12 or 13 years ago. And because I mean, that was I don't know why whatever. Who knows. It was a long time ago. It seems like Um, but uh, anyway, it You know, he, he wrote a fantastic book. And through the research in that book, which really really was talking about this, it was talking about carbohydrates and, and fats and proteins and everything. But the thing is, through his research, you learn and he brings attention to the idea of studies themselves that get published and and the articles on the studies. And so ever since then, when we get access to an article that says carbs are good for your proteins, bad for your fat is bad for your whatever we want to we want to actually read them see what the what they're saying. And oftentimes, we're finding that only four people were involved in the study, or that there was only observational research, or only 25,000, people were interviewed on paper, and they sent it in through the mail So really, basically, the scientific method wasn't really, really used. And, and but the thing is, when the American Heart Association, a very, very reputable organization that is respected by your physicians who are giving you advice, and, and all sorts of stuff, it just, it's a shame to see that oftentimes this stuff is, is much more questionable than it is substantive. And so anyway, I saw this article. And it's funny, because a couple months ago, and you know, you know, I get clients who send me articles that are just like it's sit with similar type of headlines like Mike, you see, you see this, like, yeah, this came out of Tufts University by the, you know, the American Dietetic Association or so and so now, it's like, well, it was also sponsored, but you're trying to tell you that whole grains are good for you. But the study was sponsored by or paid for by General Mills, and the Department of Agriculture, 2 organizations that want you to eat more Cheerios, I would say, I mean, like, and then you look at the study itself, and it actually has almost nothing to do with the headline, sometimes things are interpreted in such ways. Anyway, so Adam prepared a little, you know, he wrote out a nice little commentary, and I think this is gonna be a little bit of a unique podcast, because it may seem a little lecturey, but we're gonna hopefully have a little discussion about it, but we're gonna keep it short and sweet. And he'll explain why.

 

Adam  05:50

with no follow up. So when I Mike brought this to me, and I had already heard about it, but but I had or I was rolling my eyes about it before I even read read it. When he brought it to me. I said, Yes, Mike, I did hear about, but I haven't actually read it yet. So of course, I ended up reading it that evening. It's, it's like 30 pages long. And well, quite honestly, it's, it's a complete, rehashing of what the AHA has been saying in arguing for 50 years now. And there was nothing Believe it or not, in it that was new. And I don't want to sound conspiratorial. But for whatever reason, the American Heart Association continues to cherry pick studies, old flawed studies, by the way, that support their hypothesis. They can't get over the fact that they believe and will do anything to support this belief that saturated fat causes heart disease. Now, again, this has been going on for like 50 years. And unfortunately, they're using pretty shady techniques to come to these conclusions, techniques that are basically, you know, cherry picking the studies that support their argument. Now, the big travesty here to me is that I don't understand why the whole scientific community and the press for that matter, media aren't screaming dirty pool. It baffles me that they're not saying, Hey, you're rehashing the same old crap that you've been rehashing for the last 50 years? Maybe because most people feel that saturated fat must be bad. Or maybe everyone believes that saturated fat must be bad for after all, that we've been hearing it for the last three generations. Anyway. So I have to say, first and foremost that I don't know whether saturated fatty acids or SFAs or saturated fat is bad for you. I don't know. I don't think they are. But I don't know for sure. Because we don't have enough evidence to say that. With all the studies that have been done, we still can't definitively say that saturated fatty acids are bad for us and cause cardiovascular disease and kill us early. No studies have shown that yet. No good studies anyway. But the thing is, the AHA doesn't know this either. But they want so badly to believe that saturated fat is bad that they talk themselves into it and manipulate the facts to fit their belief. Therefore the AJ included only the research has supported what they know must be true and that is saturated fat is bad. Now, the aaj concluded that only four trials for clinical trials have ever been done with what they say, sufficiently reliable methodology to allow them to assess the value of replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fat. And they've concluded by the way, that this replacement, will reduce heart attacks by 30% 30%. That is such a huge number to say, and advise people and tell people based on such horrible and selective clinical trials. Now, the AHA experts have systematically picked through all the other studies and found reasons to reject all the studies that didn't find such a large positive effect, meaning that 30% reduction in heart disease, including a significant number of studies that happen to suggest the opposite. That saturated fat definitely does not cause heart disease. For those trials. They rejected them and told you why they rejected them that they were flawed for this reason. And that reason by is not blind studies, the sample sizes are too small. And that's fair enough, they're correct. Interestingly, however, the HD experts do not make the same efforts at all, to scrutinize the trials that do support their hypothesis. Included in some of those studies that they rejected to include in their hypothesis are the Minnesota coronary survey, the Sydney Heart Study, and the largest single study ever conducted so far called the Women's Health Initiative, all rejected because they had flaws in their research. And by the way, these studies happen to all refute the hypothesis that saturated fat causes cardiovascular disease. Coincidence? I don't think so. Now, the four studies, the four, the measly four studies that they did use as a port, that hypothesis that saturated fat is bad. First of all, old studies, they were all conducted in the 60s. One of them, for instance, is called the Oslo Diet Heart Study. So I did some digging about this Oslo diet, Heart Study, and lo and behold, Gary Taubes, who Mike just mentioned, did the digging for us. Gary's the author, like we said, of good calories, bad calories, and it's pretty much the national face, maybe even the worldwide face for pointing out how poorly these studies have all been done and how we have this worldwide bias against saturated fat. Anyway, what he found about the Oslo Diet Heart Study, are the following. First of all the subjects of the Oslo Heart Study, were high risk of heart disease, or had already had some kind of heart attack or episode. Alright, so all subjects had heart disease. The subjects were randomly put into two groups, half of the patients ate a low saturated fat and high polyunsaturated fat diet, with intensive counseling for years, continuous instruction and supervision. The control group ate whatever they were supposed to eat. This is a Norwegian diet back in the 60s with no counseling, no counseling, I repeat, no counseling. The control group at no counseling, but the high polyunsaturated fat and and hot and low saturated fat diets had intensive, their words intensive counseling. It wasn't a blind study. All the physicians involved also knew whether their patients were assigned to the either the intervention group or the control group. And the intervention group by the way, it turns out, thank you to Gary Taubes uncovering this, the intervention group also ate half the amount of sugar of the control group half the amount of sugar and by the way, the intervention group for eating less than 50 grams of sugar a day. That's practically a ketogenic diet, by the way to have that low. Now. One group gets a healthy diet and intensive counseling for years, the other group gets nothing. In science, this is called performance bias. And you have to watch out for performance bias and it's the equivalent of doing a drug trial without a placebo. It is literally an uncontrolled Trial, despite the randomization, it was an uncontrolled trial based on these facts. And we would never accept a trial like this for a drug. But we are for diet. Now, not only that, but the variables were more than one, there was more than one variable changed here. If we found out that half, they were eating half the sugar. Now, we don't know if it's the fact that they're eating or not eating saturated fats, that causes drop. Or maybe it was the fact that they stopped eating sugar that causes drop in cardiovascular disease. So we don't know, this study needs to be rejected. And they rejected all the other studies, for for reasons. Less than that, but they didn't reject the Oslo study, and it needs to be rejected. Now, there was another study that they use out of the four. what's called the Preity Med trial. Yeah. Excuse me. All right. That's a big trial. Obviously, I got ready med trial, a truck liked it. Probably the most famous study that made the Mediterranean diet so popular. This was also included by the AHA. And guess what, I'm not going to get into all the details, you can look it up yourself. But the same issues existed as, as the Oslo study the same kind of problems associated with that as well. Alright, must reject same problems, no intervention for the control group, etc, etc, must reject. So here's the kicker, the AHA experts actually acknowledge that they're discussing the same decade old trials, and that these trials cannot resolve this controversy. And this is what they say in this advisory that just came out.

 

Mike  16:55

They actually said it in the advisory

 

Adam  16:56

and I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read this from the study. Which is funny because again, the press doesn't talk about this comment. They talk about how they just said 30% reduction is necessary in saturated fats and coconut oil is, since it's 82%, saturated fat, that is the number one thing that should go coconut oil. Alright, this is what they wrote. The core trials reviewed in this section were started in the late 1950s and early 1960s. readers may wonder why at least one definitive clinical trial has not been completed. Since then. reasons include the high costs of a trial having upwards of 20,000 to 30,000 participants needed to achieve satisfactory statistical power. The feasibility of delivering the dietary intervention to such a large study population and technical difficulties in establishing food distribution centers necessary to maintain high adherence for at least five years and declining CVD incidence rates caused by improved lifestyle and better medical treatment. These linked issues must be managed to obtain a definitive result, remain the central considerations with dietary trials on cardiovascular disease, and indeed, are the overarching reason why few of these trials have ever been done. So they're basically saying, all right,

 

Mike  18:22

basically, negating any conclusions that they have from the study that gets published?

 

Adam  18:26

Basically, they're basically saying that a study to really definitively prove that saturated fats are bad or good, can't be done, that they quit, they quit. They are saying it can't be done. So why are they including the trials that support their argument because they aren't even close to those kinds of standards. And of course, by the way, I talked about the women the Women's Health Initiative study that was rejected by them. They were that was rejected by them because they didn't have the the numbers of participants so that's why they rejected that. Really, it's probably because it didn't prove their point, their belief. Okay, one last point. If I'm going to err it's going to be a saturated fat, a natural substance that human beings have been living with and evolving with since the beginning of time. The polyunsaturated oils other than olive oil, of course, are man made foreign objects, in essence to our body. So before I subscribe to these weak ha recommendations, I am going to need a lot more compelling evidence to accept a foreign object as more as healthier for me, as opposed to saturated fat, which is something that we've been eating as humans for our whole lives. So I'm not going to just jump ship now. Especially since I had such great success personally, with eating saturated fat. And that's true, I haven't had my bloodwork done. But you know, all signs say that I am actually in better shape right now than I was I lost weight, my back problems went away. I'm definitely not as inflamed basically. And again, this inflammation I'm talking about, is because our bodies are finding these foreign objects that they're not meant to eat. And I'm sorry, you told me to choose between coconut oil and canola oil. I'm going coconut baby, bring it on.

 

Mike  20:30

Yeah. And makes it's I mean, it's very, I mean, in defense of what they're saying what AHA is saying, it is very, very difficult to isolate variables over a statistical, you know, a significant amount of statistics statistically significant amount of people. But, you know, Adams was just mentioning, he's like, if I'm going to err towards one thing, based on what we see, and what we can, you know, infer from from, from what's in front of us, it makes a lot more sense to at least go towards something like that. And I mean, it, that's what basically they're showing us in this study is that they haven't successfully been able to isolate this variable and show the ramifications of it, you know, they they can create all sorts of correlative evidence. But really, that's what they should be saying is AHA has found some correlations, that saturated fat may be bad for you, but we have not proven it. And in fact, there are certain situations where people have had a ketogenic diets with high saturated fat and have had very successful results in improving their cardiovascular system,

 

Adam  21:40

but they rejected those. They rejected those Yes, even though because they were flawed.

 

Mike  21:44

Yes

 

Adam  21:45

Their studies aren't flawed, the ones they're using, they're not flawed, but the other ones are, yeah, right.

 

Mike  21:49

I'm just saying it says it's like there really, there is just no proof and to actually prescribe that type of thing. And we're, you know, like to be such a highly respected organization, which most doctors are, are they they tell their patients based on this type of evidence, or whatever is published if they've who knows how many of them actually read these studies.

 

Adam  22:12

that's the real, that's the real crime here. I mean, people listen to this, I mean, and they're acting like juveniles, they have this idea that they can let go of and damn it, I'm right. And I'm gonna, I'm going to skew it to show that I'm right. But you know what, this isn't a game. They're not cheating in a game right now. All right, that people's lives are at stake here. And people and industries are at stake here. Millions and millions of people's health are at stake here. They're telling people to get rid of what is seemingly natural to human beings. Instead, eating things that are not natural, that is not something we've all been like. We don't know. We don't know. But But God, if we don't know, don't make those kinds of huge recommendations like that. It's, it's, it's scary. And it really scares me.

 

Mike  23:05

And the thing is they these could the it's the conclusions. There are there's a context, for example, saturated fat, actually could be bad for your cardiovascular system. If it is in the context of eating a lot of carbohydrates, you know, it seriously,

 

Adam  23:24

I don't know if it's bad because it's in the context of carbohydrate. It was just a carbohydrate, some stuff or I don't know, I don't know, changing all these variable. That's the point. We don't know. I mean, who knows? If it's bad, I don't think it is bad for us. All right. The onus is to prove that saturated fats are bad for us before you tell us not to eat.

 

Tim Edwards  23:41

So where are those studies? Where are those studies as to whether or not the kind of the combination of various foods and

 

Adam  23:46

they are right they are right by saying that it would take a huge, huge effort. I mean, Gary Taubes started NuSI to really try to raise money to do a study, though, once and for all, you know, try to get to the bottom of this. But it's it's it's an it's nearly an impossible task.

 

Tim Edwards  24:05

I just to get it funded.

 

Adam  24:06

I think it's gonna happen. Yeah, funded and done. But hopefully, who knows,

 

Mike  24:09

I personally think it will happen in the future, because you want to get volunteers to participate in studies. And the thing is, if if saturated fat has been vilified historically, for, you know, a long enough time, it's literally I think there's some people who think that there's an ethical dilemma in saying, hey, let's see, have we stuffed some people with saturated fat and see how they're going to do? The thing is, it's kind of like, hey, let's see how heroin is gonna be for some people and how not heroin is going to be for the end. I think sometimes, because of the history that saturated fat has become, there may be a somewhat of an ethical dilemma in actually trying to recruit those people to be

 

Adam  24:45

so maybe they're not just bed infantile, that they're afraid I bruise their ego maybe just because they're afraid that if they said that saturated fat is not so bad, then maybe they're afraid that we're gonna start all of a sudden eating bacon for breakfast every single day. But you know what? Well, that might be okay. I mean, compared to eating boxes of cereal every day, more and

 

Mike  25:04

more and more every day, there are more and more people having Palio style light lifestyle or a ketogenic lifestyle, and we're seeing a lot more people who are doing these, quote unquote, alternative diets that are, that are actually people are are having incredible health benefits from it. And so I think we're

 

Adam  25:23

going to be one of those people, by the way. Annie

 

Mike  25:28

Oh, yeah, one of our one of our clients, it'll be on one of the podcasts coming up

 

Adam  25:32

worked with a dietitian, not just a hack like us, she worked with a real dietitian, well, our trainers telling her to just eat fat or she's used to, you know, and she had great results with a low carbohydrate, relatively high saturated fat diet

 

Tim Edwards  25:47

Well, let's get her on relatively quickly if we can't, too, because, you know, we in this podcast, the life of this podcast, we're looking at about 34 35 episodes, and the lion's share of the episodes are about exercise and intensity. That's pillar one. But know what today we're talking about pillar two, and nutrition. And so I think this is an area of your three pillars, Adam, with exercise, rest and recovery and nutrition, when we need to really spend more time on to help our audience really embrace power of 10

 

Mike  26:15

Yeah, it's, it's great to, you know, hit all the pillars and everything but for you know, it's we're just we want to have credibility for what we're trying to say we don't we don't make like, like conclusive claims until we really really know

 

Adam  26:28

or the AHA does

 

Mike  26:29

is that it's a thing and thats the thing is like and but it's great to see people who are doing some of these quote unquote, alternative diets against what the American Heart Association is, as prescribed, and have had incredible success with their fitness goals and, and their health goals as well. So and Adams is another exhibit and we know we're going to get the scientific results soon, I'm sure, but it's, uh, anyway. But I think this podcast is very, very important because and we hope it just brings to attention just that we don't just read the headlines. See if you can click on the actual study, see if you can understand it the best you can consult somebody who you know, bring it to your doctor say, hey, what about this? What about that, or, or, or someone who you think might have a better idea what they're talking about, but we do need to be a little dubious of some of these organizations that that the medical world has put a lot of stock in.

 

Tim Edwards  27:27

Mike and Adam, thanks for a great discussion here on the inform fitness podcast. Now inform nation we invite you to read that USA Today article titled, coconut oil isn't healthy. It's never been healthy. Then review the American Heart Association study for yourself titled aaj presidential advisory on dietary fats and cardiovascular disease. And of course, for your convenience, we'll have a link to the article and that study in the show notes. You might remember we were hoping to have special guest bodybuilder and biomechanics expert Doug Brignole on the show this week, but we had some Skype issues that we hope to have resolved here in the next couple of weeks. So looking forward to having Doug on the show with us very soon. If you are an exercise enthusiast and maybe you found this podcast via search through iTunes, I Heart Radio stitcher tune in or even on YouTube, but you haven't yet given this power of 10 Slow Motion high intensity strength training a try for yourself. What are you waiting for, click on over to informfitness.com for locations across the US. Now if you're not near an inform fitness location, you can click the link in the show notes. And that will direct you to Amazon so you can pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. Because inside the book, you'll find several demonstrations of exercises that you can perform in the comfort of your own home or even at a local gym. Thanks again for listening, the inform fitness podcast and for Adam Zickerman. Mike Rogers and Sheila Melody of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network.

 

What is The InForm Fitness Podcast?

Now listened to in 100 countries, The InForm Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman is a presentation of InForm Fitness Studios, specializing in safe, efficient, High Intensity strength training.
Adam discusses the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific-based, up-to-the-minute information on a variety of subjects. The topics covered include exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more.

34 Is the American Heart Association Misleading Us About Coc...

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
studies, saturated fat, people, trials, american heart association, podcast, eating, saturated, aha, bad, rejected, cardiovascular disease, adam, diet, inform, read, sheila, fat, fitness, coconut oil
SPEAKERS
Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:05
Interestingly, however, the AHA experts do not make the same efforts at all to scrutinize the trials, I do support their hypothesis. If I'm going to error, it's going to be saturated fat, a natural substance that human beings have been living with and evolving with since the beginning of time. People listen to this, I mean, and they're acting like juveniles. They have this idea that they can't let go of and damn it. I'm right. And I'm going to I'm going to skew it to show that I'm right. But you know what, this isn't a game. They're not cheating in a game right now. All right, that people's lives are at stake here and people and industries are at stake here. Millions and millions of people's health are at stake here. They're telling people to get rid of what is seemingly natural to human beings. Instead, eating things that are not natural that is not something we evolved I mean, like, we don't know we don't know but like God if we don't know don't make those kinds of huge recommendations like that. It's it's, it's scary.

Tim Edwards 01:19
Hey, inform nation Welcome to episode number 34 of the inform fitness podcast 20 minutes with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends and I really think today, this episode might be the first 20 minute episode we've had in quite a long time. And there are many reasons for that. One of them is the fact that Sheila Melody is actually off gallivanting around France as we speak, so she will not be joining us here.

Mike 01:45
Yeah, she's such a windbag. Anyway, she just like keeps on rambling and rambling around. That's why we're going like over 45 minutes

Tim Edwards 01:51
I know poor Sheila, she's she just keeps talking and she won't let us get a word in edgewise. She's throwing things at us that her radio right now listening to this.

Adam 02:02
listen to Mike, putting down Sheila without her being here to defend herself.

Mike 02:09
It was supposed to be like really ironic, because we all know that. I got nothing to say keep talking.

Tim Edwards 02:17
And Sheila always jumps in

Adam 02:18
Mike didn't think I was being sarcastic.

Tim Edwards 02:22
Well, of course, for those of you who are new to the podcast voices you are hearing,

Mike 02:27
Well, I wasn't prepared to defend myself. So that's why...

Tim Edwards 02:33
you're hearing the voice of Mike Rogers, the general manager of inform fitness there at inform fitness headquarters.

Adam 02:40
The real windbag of this podcast.

Tim Edwards 02:43
I just can't keep my mouth shut. Also, of course, the man you just heard is the founder of inform fitness, Adam Zickerman and Adam. You know, a few episodes ago we were we spent a lot of time talking about your ketogenic diet, that 90 day journey that you embarked upon right towards the beginning of 2017. And you had tremendous results with this new diet plan. And we've yet to see your bloodwork results. I'm assuming that's coming pretty soon, but the items that you mentioned that you the food that you were eating on this diet, were some items that we've been told for decades, to stay away from saturated fats and such. And that is the title or the topic for today's podcast.

Adam 03:25
Yes, yes. So saturated fat, is has been vilified for the last 50 years and continues to this day to be vilified by the American Heart Association with a recent advisor they put out can't be more than a couple of weeks ago at this point. And I remember when it came out, Mike ran to me and said, Adam, did you see this? Right, Mike?

Mike 03:53
Yeah, yes, I was like, Adam, you see this? No, I Oh, yes. I think the just like that like Atos like Adam comma, pause. Did you see this?

Tim Edwards 04:05
just for effect right

Mike 04:06
Well, here's the deal. You know, something, you know, we're always bringing things to each other's attention. You know, when we see something published online, and frankly, the first thing I saw as about two weeks ago, was a headline that says, it turns out coconut oil is bad for you.

Tim Edwards 04:22
I saw the same thing

Mike 04:23
says the AHA and I was like, whoa, okay. All right. Well, I cannot wait to read this because,

Adam 04:30
ah, a American Heart Association as revered

Mike 04:34
right.

Adam 04:34
That's an institution.

Mike 04:36
That's what I get very excited about it. I've been excited to to actually read studies. I'm not just articles ever since I read good calories, bad calories by Gary Taubes about I don't know, like about 12 or 13 years ago. And because I mean, that was I don't know why whatever. Who knows. It was a long time ago. It seems like Um, but uh, anyway, it You know, he, he wrote a fantastic book. And through the research in that book, which really really was talking about this, it was talking about carbohydrates and, and fats and proteins and everything. But the thing is, through his research, you learn and he brings attention to the idea of studies themselves that get published and and the articles on the studies. And so ever since then, when we get access to an article that says carbs are good for your proteins, bad for your fat is bad for your whatever we want to we want to actually read them see what the what they're saying. And oftentimes, we're finding that only four people were involved in the study, or that there was only observational research, or only 25,000, people were interviewed on paper, and they sent it in through the mail So really, basically, the scientific method wasn't really, really used. And, and but the thing is, when the American Heart Association, a very, very reputable organization that is respected by your physicians who are giving you advice, and, and all sorts of stuff, it just, it's a shame to see that oftentimes this stuff is, is much more questionable than it is substantive. And so anyway, I saw this article. And it's funny, because a couple months ago, and you know, you know, I get clients who send me articles that are just like it's sit with similar type of headlines like Mike, you see, you see this, like, yeah, this came out of Tufts University by the, you know, the American Dietetic Association or so and so now, it's like, well, it was also sponsored, but you're trying to tell you that whole grains are good for you. But the study was sponsored by or paid for by General Mills, and the Department of Agriculture, 2 organizations that want you to eat more Cheerios, I would say, I mean, like, and then you look at the study itself, and it actually has almost nothing to do with the headline, sometimes things are interpreted in such ways. Anyway, so Adam prepared a little, you know, he wrote out a nice little commentary, and I think this is gonna be a little bit of a unique podcast, because it may seem a little lecturey, but we're gonna hopefully have a little discussion about it, but we're gonna keep it short and sweet. And he'll explain why.

Adam 05:50
with no follow up. So when I Mike brought this to me, and I had already heard about it, but but I had or I was rolling my eyes about it before I even read read it. When he brought it to me. I said, Yes, Mike, I did hear about, but I haven't actually read it yet. So of course, I ended up reading it that evening. It's, it's like 30 pages long. And well, quite honestly, it's, it's a complete, rehashing of what the AHA has been saying in arguing for 50 years now. And there was nothing Believe it or not, in it that was new. And I don't want to sound conspiratorial. But for whatever reason, the American Heart Association continues to cherry pick studies, old flawed studies, by the way, that support their hypothesis. They can't get over the fact that they believe and will do anything to support this belief that saturated fat causes heart disease. Now, again, this has been going on for like 50 years. And unfortunately, they're using pretty shady techniques to come to these conclusions, techniques that are basically, you know, cherry picking the studies that support their argument. Now, the big travesty here to me is that I don't understand why the whole scientific community and the press for that matter, media aren't screaming dirty pool. It baffles me that they're not saying, Hey, you're rehashing the same old crap that you've been rehashing for the last 50 years? Maybe because most people feel that saturated fat must be bad. Or maybe everyone believes that saturated fat must be bad for after all, that we've been hearing it for the last three generations. Anyway. So I have to say, first and foremost that I don't know whether saturated fatty acids or SFAs or saturated fat is bad for you. I don't know. I don't think they are. But I don't know for sure. Because we don't have enough evidence to say that. With all the studies that have been done, we still can't definitively say that saturated fatty acids are bad for us and cause cardiovascular disease and kill us early. No studies have shown that yet. No good studies anyway. But the thing is, the AHA doesn't know this either. But they want so badly to believe that saturated fat is bad that they talk themselves into it and manipulate the facts to fit their belief. Therefore the AJ included only the research has supported what they know must be true and that is saturated fat is bad. Now, the aaj concluded that only four trials for clinical trials have ever been done with what they say, sufficiently reliable methodology to allow them to assess the value of replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fat. And they've concluded by the way, that this replacement, will reduce heart attacks by 30% 30%. That is such a huge number to say, and advise people and tell people based on such horrible and selective clinical trials. Now, the AHA experts have systematically picked through all the other studies and found reasons to reject all the studies that didn't find such a large positive effect, meaning that 30% reduction in heart disease, including a significant number of studies that happen to suggest the opposite. That saturated fat definitely does not cause heart disease. For those trials. They rejected them and told you why they rejected them that they were flawed for this reason. And that reason by is not blind studies, the sample sizes are too small. And that's fair enough, they're correct. Interestingly, however, the HD experts do not make the same efforts at all, to scrutinize the trials that do support their hypothesis. Included in some of those studies that they rejected to include in their hypothesis are the Minnesota coronary survey, the Sydney Heart Study, and the largest single study ever conducted so far called the Women's Health Initiative, all rejected because they had flaws in their research. And by the way, these studies happen to all refute the hypothesis that saturated fat causes cardiovascular disease. Coincidence? I don't think so. Now, the four studies, the four, the measly four studies that they did use as a port, that hypothesis that saturated fat is bad. First of all, old studies, they were all conducted in the 60s. One of them, for instance, is called the Oslo Diet Heart Study. So I did some digging about this Oslo diet, Heart Study, and lo and behold, Gary Taubes, who Mike just mentioned, did the digging for us. Gary's the author, like we said, of good calories, bad calories, and it's pretty much the national face, maybe even the worldwide face for pointing out how poorly these studies have all been done and how we have this worldwide bias against saturated fat. Anyway, what he found about the Oslo Diet Heart Study, are the following. First of all the subjects of the Oslo Heart Study, were high risk of heart disease, or had already had some kind of heart attack or episode. Alright, so all subjects had heart disease. The subjects were randomly put into two groups, half of the patients ate a low saturated fat and high polyunsaturated fat diet, with intensive counseling for years, continuous instruction and supervision. The control group ate whatever they were supposed to eat. This is a Norwegian diet back in the 60s with no counseling, no counseling, I repeat, no counseling. The control group at no counseling, but the high polyunsaturated fat and and hot and low saturated fat diets had intensive, their words intensive counseling. It wasn't a blind study. All the physicians involved also knew whether their patients were assigned to the either the intervention group or the control group. And the intervention group by the way, it turns out, thank you to Gary Taubes uncovering this, the intervention group also ate half the amount of sugar of the control group half the amount of sugar and by the way, the intervention group for eating less than 50 grams of sugar a day. That's practically a ketogenic diet, by the way to have that low. Now. One group gets a healthy diet and intensive counseling for years, the other group gets nothing. In science, this is called performance bias. And you have to watch out for performance bias and it's the equivalent of doing a drug trial without a placebo. It is literally an uncontrolled Trial, despite the randomization, it was an uncontrolled trial based on these facts. And we would never accept a trial like this for a drug. But we are for diet. Now, not only that, but the variables were more than one, there was more than one variable changed here. If we found out that half, they were eating half the sugar. Now, we don't know if it's the fact that they're eating or not eating saturated fats, that causes drop. Or maybe it was the fact that they stopped eating sugar that causes drop in cardiovascular disease. So we don't know, this study needs to be rejected. And they rejected all the other studies, for for reasons. Less than that, but they didn't reject the Oslo study, and it needs to be rejected. Now, there was another study that they use out of the four. what's called the Preity Med trial. Yeah. Excuse me. All right. That's a big trial. Obviously, I got ready med trial, a truck liked it. Probably the most famous study that made the Mediterranean diet so popular. This was also included by the AHA. And guess what, I'm not going to get into all the details, you can look it up yourself. But the same issues existed as, as the Oslo study the same kind of problems associated with that as well. Alright, must reject same problems, no intervention for the control group, etc, etc, must reject. So here's the kicker, the AHA experts actually acknowledge that they're discussing the same decade old trials, and that these trials cannot resolve this controversy. And this is what they say in this advisory that just came out.

Mike 16:55
They actually said it in the advisory

Adam 16:56
and I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read this from the study. Which is funny because again, the press doesn't talk about this comment. They talk about how they just said 30% reduction is necessary in saturated fats and coconut oil is, since it's 82%, saturated fat, that is the number one thing that should go coconut oil. Alright, this is what they wrote. The core trials reviewed in this section were started in the late 1950s and early 1960s. readers may wonder why at least one definitive clinical trial has not been completed. Since then. reasons include the high costs of a trial having upwards of 20,000 to 30,000 participants needed to achieve satisfactory statistical power. The feasibility of delivering the dietary intervention to such a large study population and technical difficulties in establishing food distribution centers necessary to maintain high adherence for at least five years and declining CVD incidence rates caused by improved lifestyle and better medical treatment. These linked issues must be managed to obtain a definitive result, remain the central considerations with dietary trials on cardiovascular disease, and indeed, are the overarching reason why few of these trials have ever been done. So they're basically saying, all right,

Mike 18:22
basically, negating any conclusions that they have from the study that gets published?

Adam 18:26
Basically, they're basically saying that a study to really definitively prove that saturated fats are bad or good, can't be done, that they quit, they quit. They are saying it can't be done. So why are they including the trials that support their argument because they aren't even close to those kinds of standards. And of course, by the way, I talked about the women the Women's Health Initiative study that was rejected by them. They were that was rejected by them because they didn't have the the numbers of participants so that's why they rejected that. Really, it's probably because it didn't prove their point, their belief. Okay, one last point. If I'm going to err it's going to be a saturated fat, a natural substance that human beings have been living with and evolving with since the beginning of time. The polyunsaturated oils other than olive oil, of course, are man made foreign objects, in essence to our body. So before I subscribe to these weak ha recommendations, I am going to need a lot more compelling evidence to accept a foreign object as more as healthier for me, as opposed to saturated fat, which is something that we've been eating as humans for our whole lives. So I'm not going to just jump ship now. Especially since I had such great success personally, with eating saturated fat. And that's true, I haven't had my bloodwork done. But you know, all signs say that I am actually in better shape right now than I was I lost weight, my back problems went away. I'm definitely not as inflamed basically. And again, this inflammation I'm talking about, is because our bodies are finding these foreign objects that they're not meant to eat. And I'm sorry, you told me to choose between coconut oil and canola oil. I'm going coconut baby, bring it on.

Mike 20:30
Yeah. And makes it's I mean, it's very, I mean, in defense of what they're saying what AHA is saying, it is very, very difficult to isolate variables over a statistical, you know, a significant amount of statistics statistically significant amount of people. But, you know, Adams was just mentioning, he's like, if I'm going to err towards one thing, based on what we see, and what we can, you know, infer from from, from what's in front of us, it makes a lot more sense to at least go towards something like that. And I mean, it, that's what basically they're showing us in this study is that they haven't successfully been able to isolate this variable and show the ramifications of it, you know, they they can create all sorts of correlative evidence. But really, that's what they should be saying is AHA has found some correlations, that saturated fat may be bad for you, but we have not proven it. And in fact, there are certain situations where people have had a ketogenic diets with high saturated fat and have had very successful results in improving their cardiovascular system,

Adam 21:40
but they rejected those. They rejected those Yes, even though because they were flawed.

Mike 21:44
Yes

Adam 21:45
Their studies aren't flawed, the ones they're using, they're not flawed, but the other ones are, yeah, right.

Mike 21:49
I'm just saying it says it's like there really, there is just no proof and to actually prescribe that type of thing. And we're, you know, like to be such a highly respected organization, which most doctors are, are they they tell their patients based on this type of evidence, or whatever is published if they've who knows how many of them actually read these studies.

Adam 22:12
that's the real, that's the real crime here. I mean, people listen to this, I mean, and they're acting like juveniles, they have this idea that they can let go of and damn it, I'm right. And I'm gonna, I'm going to skew it to show that I'm right. But you know what, this isn't a game. They're not cheating in a game right now. All right, that people's lives are at stake here. And people and industries are at stake here. Millions and millions of people's health are at stake here. They're telling people to get rid of what is seemingly natural to human beings. Instead, eating things that are not natural, that is not something we've all been like. We don't know. We don't know. But But God, if we don't know, don't make those kinds of huge recommendations like that. It's, it's, it's scary. And it really scares me.

Mike 23:05
And the thing is they these could the it's the conclusions. There are there's a context, for example, saturated fat, actually could be bad for your cardiovascular system. If it is in the context of eating a lot of carbohydrates, you know, it seriously,

Adam 23:24
I don't know if it's bad because it's in the context of carbohydrate. It was just a carbohydrate, some stuff or I don't know, I don't know, changing all these variable. That's the point. We don't know. I mean, who knows? If it's bad, I don't think it is bad for us. All right. The onus is to prove that saturated fats are bad for us before you tell us not to eat.

Tim Edwards 23:41
So where are those studies? Where are those studies as to whether or not the kind of the combination of various foods and

Adam 23:46
they are right they are right by saying that it would take a huge, huge effort. I mean, Gary Taubes started NuSI to really try to raise money to do a study, though, once and for all, you know, try to get to the bottom of this. But it's it's it's an it's nearly an impossible task.

Tim Edwards 24:05
I just to get it funded.

Adam 24:06
I think it's gonna happen. Yeah, funded and done. But hopefully, who knows,

Mike 24:09
I personally think it will happen in the future, because you want to get volunteers to participate in studies. And the thing is, if if saturated fat has been vilified historically, for, you know, a long enough time, it's literally I think there's some people who think that there's an ethical dilemma in saying, hey, let's see, have we stuffed some people with saturated fat and see how they're going to do? The thing is, it's kind of like, hey, let's see how heroin is gonna be for some people and how not heroin is going to be for the end. I think sometimes, because of the history that saturated fat has become, there may be a somewhat of an ethical dilemma in actually trying to recruit those people to be

Adam 24:45
so maybe they're not just bed infantile, that they're afraid I bruise their ego maybe just because they're afraid that if they said that saturated fat is not so bad, then maybe they're afraid that we're gonna start all of a sudden eating bacon for breakfast every single day. But you know what? Well, that might be okay. I mean, compared to eating boxes of cereal every day, more and

Mike 25:04
more and more every day, there are more and more people having Palio style light lifestyle or a ketogenic lifestyle, and we're seeing a lot more people who are doing these, quote unquote, alternative diets that are, that are actually people are are having incredible health benefits from it. And so I think we're

Adam 25:23
going to be one of those people, by the way. Annie

Mike 25:28
Oh, yeah, one of our one of our clients, it'll be on one of the podcasts coming up

Adam 25:32
worked with a dietitian, not just a hack like us, she worked with a real dietitian, well, our trainers telling her to just eat fat or she's used to, you know, and she had great results with a low carbohydrate, relatively high saturated fat diet

Tim Edwards 25:47
Well, let's get her on relatively quickly if we can't, too, because, you know, we in this podcast, the life of this podcast, we're looking at about 34 35 episodes, and the lion's share of the episodes are about exercise and intensity. That's pillar one. But know what today we're talking about pillar two, and nutrition. And so I think this is an area of your three pillars, Adam, with exercise, rest and recovery and nutrition, when we need to really spend more time on to help our audience really embrace power of 10

Mike 26:15
Yeah, it's, it's great to, you know, hit all the pillars and everything but for you know, it's we're just we want to have credibility for what we're trying to say we don't we don't make like, like conclusive claims until we really really know

Adam 26:28
or the AHA does

Mike 26:29
is that it's a thing and thats the thing is like and but it's great to see people who are doing some of these quote unquote, alternative diets against what the American Heart Association is, as prescribed, and have had incredible success with their fitness goals and, and their health goals as well. So and Adams is another exhibit and we know we're going to get the scientific results soon, I'm sure, but it's, uh, anyway. But I think this podcast is very, very important because and we hope it just brings to attention just that we don't just read the headlines. See if you can click on the actual study, see if you can understand it the best you can consult somebody who you know, bring it to your doctor say, hey, what about this? What about that, or, or, or someone who you think might have a better idea what they're talking about, but we do need to be a little dubious of some of these organizations that that the medical world has put a lot of stock in.

Tim Edwards 27:27
Mike and Adam, thanks for a great discussion here on the inform fitness podcast. Now inform nation we invite you to read that USA Today article titled, coconut oil isn't healthy. It's never been healthy. Then review the American Heart Association study for yourself titled aaj presidential advisory on dietary fats and cardiovascular disease. And of course, for your convenience, we'll have a link to the article and that study in the show notes. You might remember we were hoping to have special guest bodybuilder and biomechanics expert Doug Brignole on the show this week, but we had some Skype issues that we hope to have resolved here in the next couple of weeks. So looking forward to having Doug on the show with us very soon. If you are an exercise enthusiast and maybe you found this podcast via search through iTunes, I Heart Radio stitcher tune in or even on YouTube, but you haven't yet given this power of 10 Slow Motion high intensity strength training a try for yourself. What are you waiting for, click on over to informfitness.com for locations across the US. Now if you're not near an inform fitness location, you can click the link in the show notes. And that will direct you to Amazon so you can pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. Because inside the book, you'll find several demonstrations of exercises that you can perform in the comfort of your own home or even at a local gym. Thanks again for listening, the inform fitness podcast and for Adam Zickerman. Mike Rogers and Sheila Melody of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network.

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