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There’s no silver bullet in sales. But there are proven processes, better questions, and the right kind of leadership, and that’s what we’re here to talk about.
On Sales Against the Odds, we dig into the real challenges SMB leaders face and share sales strategies, tactics, and hiring best practices that actually work.
This isn’t about making sales sound easy or polished. It’s about what really happens in the field. The horror stories, the humor, and the humble moments, we cover it all.
Each episode, you’ll walk away with two things: stories you can relate to, and tangible actions you can take back to your business.
We won’t pretend we have all the answers. But we’ve been there, we’ve seen what works, and we’re here to give you the best shot at building a sales-focused company that drives results.
[00:00:00] Jason Green: Technology does not solve the problems in your business. What you need to do is you need to align all the human energy in your business. You've gotta sort out, you know, get the right structure, have the right people in the right seats, have the right processes in place. You've got to align all that human energy. And then when you add technology to that, AI, whatever it is, that's the multiplier
[00:00:37] Lee Brumbaugh: Thank you, um, everyone for joining. My name is Lee Brumbaugh. You are joining another episode of Sales Against the Odds. Very excited to have Jason Green with us today. Jason is a certified EOS implementer in the UK, so we get the cool accent today, and we get to learn about, uh, some of the differences on US versus UK from a business perspective.
[00:00:57] Lee Brumbaugh: But Jason has a history of not only EOS, but in the technology space, building successful companies. Jason, thank you so much for joining us today
[00:01:06] Jason Green: Yeah. Hi, Lee. It's lovely to be here. Thanks for putting up with my English accent today.
[00:01:12] Lee Brumbaugh: We all know you sound more sophisticated than us Americans, so.
[00:01:15] Lee Brumbaugh: I know you've worked with our SX team, uh, over in the UK. They speak very highly about what you do with the clients.
[00:01:21] Lee Brumbaugh: But how'd you get into the EOS space? Tell us a little bit about your journey of, of how you got into EOS
[00:01:27] Jason Green: Well, my, my journey is I, I think probably pretty similar to a lot of EOS implementers. struggling, uh, founder, visionary, too big a ego to let go, too involved in every part of my business, and I w- I was strangling it. we'd just hit a ceiling. Uh, we couldn't break through the ceiling and, uh, you know, it, it really was all my fault because I wasn't giving people clear direction.
[00:01:55] Jason Green: I wasn't setting a vision. I was frustrated with my people. And a good friend of mine gave me a copy of Traction by Gino Wittmann. I picked it up a couple years, uh, later, and, uh, I was just blown away.
[00:02:09] Jason Green: I was just like, " You know, you complete imbecile, why haven't you been doing any, any of this stuff?" And so, uh, implemented it in my business and, over a period of about, three years, turned the business around. Uh, built intrinsic value in it because the business didn't need me anymore, and I sold that about seven years ago.
[00:02:30] Jason Green: And since then, I have been practicing being an EOS implementer on my way to mastery. I don't think I'm ever gonna get there, EOS mastery. it's just so simple and beautiful really. Yeah.
[00:02:45] Lee Brumbaugh: Jason, you mentioned, you know, you said yourself, right, strangling the business, so to speak. When you're taking on new EOS clients, How do you get that owner and that visionary to take a step back and realize that they are doing exactly what you did, kind of strangling that business?
[00:03:00] Lee Brumbaugh: How do, how do you get that aha moment to click? Do you have to give some tough love sometimes to do...? Like, how... What does that look like?
[00:03:06] Jason Green: I think some, business owners come to that realization by themselves. it's just that constant doing the same thing over and over again, and, and you just, you know, it's not working. So you gotta... You know, at some point the light bulb goes off and you realize that maybe, you know, maybe the problem isn't my people and my business, maybe the problem is me.
[00:03:27] Jason Green: So I think, some business owners go through that realization. other business owners, it's a little bit of a journey. I mean, I have clients that from the moment I meet them to the time we get into the session room and, and do a session, it can be two years.
[00:03:41] Jason Green: you know, r- really it's just meeting them, coaching them, asking them questions about their business.
[00:03:47] Jason Green: Because you can never tell someone, you can't tell... You know, I mean, you can tell someone that it's them,
[00:03:53] Lee Brumbaugh: Right
[00:03:54] Jason Green: unless they realize it for themselves, it doesn't matter, Doesn't mean anything. So it's about those probing questions, asking, you know, "Is, is that, is that the real issue?"
[00:04:05] Jason Green: You know, "What is the root cause of you being frustrated with your people?" And, and helping them realize that they're the issue, not, not their team
[00:04:14] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah, that's, that's great perspective. You mentioned the root issue and kind of getting into it. Where do you see companies that struggle the most with, realizing, like peeling back the onion is hard, right? And getting to the deep. So when you think about good issue-solving, what does that look like?
[00:04:32] Jason Green: I think, um, I mean, I don't know if you, you went to the EOS conference and saw Gino talk about being open and honest
[00:04:40] Jason Green: he talked about, you know, what does being open and honest with that leadership team. And, and it's, it's so important to be open and honest when you're, when you're tackling issues and getting to the, the root cause.
[00:04:53] Jason Green: so first of all, you know, everybody on the leadership team needs to be open, open to feedback, because feedback is a gift. you gotta try and change everyone's mindset in the room that feedback is a gift. It's not... You know, you're not attacking the person. You're, you're basically saying, "This is where we need to do better."
[00:05:10] Jason Green: so it starts with, being open and honest. So you've gotta be open as an individual, and it's not easy. When people are open, you can just say it. You can just say what the issue is. And I think the, the teams that go deep and really figure out the root cause are the ones that aren't afraid to just get it out there and really hone in.
[00:05:33] Jason Green: You know, because often issues are people issues.
[00:05:36] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah
[00:05:37] Jason Green: know, someone in that room is just not doing whatever they're meant to be doing to the standard that you need, Maybe they just need help. Maybe they... You know, the person might share the values, but they maybe just need some help.
[00:05:49] Jason Green: So you've gotta start with vulnerability-based trust, being open and honest with each other. And when that's there, teams will go deeper and really figure out the root cause
[00:06:01] Lee Brumbaugh: I'm just gonna ask a question on this from a sales perspective, how often it's an issue, but so many times sales is a piece of it. And, you know, when you're looking at that issue, I, I love the approach of it. It is sometimes it's individual, but sometimes it's team elements that can help pick that up, right?
[00:06:15] Lee Brumbaugh: If you don't have the right ICP determined, if you don't have a value proposition that resonates, like as a team, you can fix some of those types of things. So, I mean, obviously our, our podcast focuses on sales in the SMB space. You know, just real world, how often is sales a driver of, of what's being talked about, a, a core issue in, in the teams you work with?
[00:06:35] Lee Brumbaugh: What do you see good teams, how do they solve for you're, you're getting a rock and it's consistently scorecard is off because of sales, or rocks are off because of sales? Like how do you see good teams approach that? Is it sometimes a person issue? Is it a process issue? What are you seeing recently when sales are, you know, a crux issue for the team?
[00:06:53] Jason Green: Yeah. And it, and it often is an, an issue for small businesses. I think it starts with, having good data and process. Because without good data and process, it's difficult to pinpoint the root cause. where is it? Is it, is it getting leads in? Is it the conversion? is it, um, you know, the number of proposals you're getting out?
[00:07:15] Jason Green: So are the, are the leads quality leads rather than just a bunch of leads? my best teams have really managed to systemize
[00:07:25] Jason Green: their marketing and their sales,
[00:07:28] Jason Green: and have these on scorecards so that, if they're getting the right amount of quality leads, that leads to meetings, it leads to these proposals and quotes and, It's a bit like EOS. There's no magic pills or silver bullets with EOS.
[00:07:43] Jason Green: Same thing with sales. Sales is, is about consistently being persistent, isn't it? You know, keep, keep going with it, the numbers. So yeah, systemize, measure
[00:07:53] Lee Brumbaugh: I think, I mean, it's a good, I mean, again, there's so many different... The nice part about sales, as you mentioned, in our day and age with the stages, the way it's weighted, you, you should have, you know, companies that don't have that level of sophistication are really missing out.
[00:08:04] Lee Brumbaugh: Because you're right, you can blame the person or the team member, but it could be a top-of-the-funnel issue, it could be bottom-of-the-funnel issue. And with all the tools and resources we have today, there's so many different ways to support. If it's a bottom issue, you can coach too. If it's a top of the funnel, it's how it's, like you said, sales and marketing kind of sticking together.
[00:08:21] Lee Brumbaugh: So when you say processes and you, you mentioned scorecards, how... You know, I, I see teams struggle with they may have a good leadership sales scorecard, but doesn't roll down to a good, necessarily a good sales scorecard or an operational sales scorecard. How do you see good teams link up their sales scorecards to all their scorecards so there's good synergy amongst what's they're building from a data standpoint?
[00:08:42] Jason Green: So I think, you know, you're exactly right. You know, Often leadership teams do EOS very well with scorecards and, and measurables. and then within the sales team, you have to... First of all, you've gotta have a great leader and manager there. whoever that head of sales is on, on the leadership team, they need to be great at LMA, you know, leadership, management, and accountability. Because I always think, you know, you've always gotta look at yourself. If your team's not performing, you've gotta look at yourself first. You've gotta ask yourself, am I giving them all the tools they need? The resources, the technology? Am I creating clear expectations?
[00:09:19] Jason Green: Am I communicating well with them?" And this is all leadership and mana- you know, have I created the right vision for them and shared that with them? you've gotta give them that first, because if you don't give them that, then you're, you're doing them a disservice. then once you have that in place, you know, then you've gotta have clear accountability on a, on a weekly...
[00:09:36] Jason Green: And especially with sa- I mean, sales is so easy to measure, isn't it? you look at other areas of the business, like operations, when you're dealing with, you know, how much time are we devoting to each client.
[00:09:48] Lee Brumbaugh: Right. Customer service in general, yeah
[00:09:50] Jason Green: It's, you know, you can measure it, but it's so much harder and it, and it puts a, it puts an additional load on everyone as well.
[00:09:56] Jason Green: But, you know, with a, with a salesperson, you can, you can go, you know, how many meetings did they do this week? How many phone calls did they make? what was the value of their proposals? So you've gotta have a great scorecard And my biggest bugbear is that
[00:10:10] Jason Green: when I get to see a sales team scorecard, they have team accountability. So they'll have the number of meetings for the team.
[00:10:17] Lee Brumbaugh: and it's one person of the four that's driving. Yeah
[00:10:20] Jason Green: And yeah, and, and it's, usually the, the manager, the, the leader of the sales team, they're the one that owns the number.
[00:10:25] Lee Brumbaugh: Where, you know, what they need is they need Bob and Richard and Lisa and, and them all to have their own measurables for the week. Because you know, you wanna use this to create a little bit of competition, but also you can learn from each other.
[00:10:40] Jason Green: You know, if Bob's getting 10 meetings a week and Lisa's only getting two, well, what, what is Bob doing that Lisa's not doing?
[00:10:48] Lee Brumbaugh: And that could be an issue on the sales list. People think issues are negative, but they can be positive. So be learn from, "Hey Bob, you had 10 meetings. Lisa, you only had two." Let's learn from each other, put it on the issues list. Like it's a great area. Yeah
[00:11:00] Jason Green: exactly. So it's, you know, measurables aren't there just to beat people up.
[00:11:04] Jason Green: they're there to help people get better as well. I mean, there is a limit.
[00:11:08] Jason Green: if they never learn, that never- number never goes up, okay, maybe you got the wrong person in the wrong seat
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[00:11:43] Lee Brumbaugh: I've worked with so many companies on EOS, and so many companies struggle with, like,finding good issues, right? How do we find good issues? But if what you described, right, if Bob has 10, let's say Lisa has six, you're meeting your meeting goals, but you're not getting the proposal goals.
[00:11:57] Lee Brumbaugh: Well, there's a gap there. Take it, drive it to the issues list. Don't talk about the scorecard. So sales is great because so many teams struggle with, "Well, it's a sales L10 and we don't really have issues." Like, no, you've got great issues. Your rocks, your scorecard elements should drive daily issues on a daily basis.
[00:12:12] Lee Brumbaugh: We didn't have enough proposals in. What's changing? We're not getting them out fast enough. Do we need other team members? Is our format of how we present not clear enough
[00:12:20] Jason Green: do we need to redo our proven process? is our sales process need, fixing? The, the root cause will be in there somewhere.
[00:12:26] Lee Brumbaugh: but it's so many teams I get into and they're like, "Well, we have this great leadership L10, but I just don't know what to do with, the..." And I'm like, "No, this is the perfect place to drive, drive a good..." And there can be some variation.
[00:12:36] Lee Brumbaugh: I'll tell you that like we did, I've done a lot of L10s and I would delve up a quick little check on their pipeline. We'd focus on their top five accounts that want a movement for the week. So, but at this, at the end of the day, if you've got a good scorecard, you've got good rocks, and you're tackling issues, you've got, you've got something that's, that's gold in the sales meeting.
[00:12:54] Lee Brumbaugh: So,
[00:12:55] Jason Green: But, but I, I still think that comes from the, the leader. The leader has got to really, create a safe environment for that sales team. they've gotta go first at being open and honest.
[00:13:07] Jason Green: they've gotta want feedback. You know, "What, what can I do better for you?"
[00:13:11] Jason Green: You know, on a, on a daily, weekly basis
[00:13:13] Lee Brumbaugh: So Jason, I'm gonna use a couple points you've made today. So you said at the beginning we've got this business owner that wants to strangle the business. You just said the sales leader's trying to create a safe space. You're the, you're, we're gonna have a lot of SMB owners that are listening today that are saying, "I gotta join every sales meeting," and we just said we're trying to create a space.
[00:13:29] Lee Brumbaugh: Do you, have you ever had a situation where you've told the owner, "Let the salesperson take..." Like, how, how do you... Have you had those tough conversations where you said, "Hey, you're meddling in an area that's..." Like how does that, give us some perspective on that
[00:13:42] Jason Green: Yeah, I mean, it's... You know, I was one of those leaders.
[00:13:47] Jason Green: You know what? It's not leading. It really is not leading. I think, I think that's the first thing. I wasn't leading. I was meddling. I was meddling.
[00:13:54] Lee Brumbaugh: Meddling's a good way, good way to
[00:13:55] Jason Green: chief, chief meddling officer, I think. I think I was.
[00:14:01] Jason Green: And so I think first of all, you know, without something like EOS, it's difficult for leaders or chief meddling officers to let go. and the reason is, is that if you just let go without putting any systems, you have this anxiety and fear that nothing's getting done. EOS gives you a feedback mechanism. by all means, go and look at the sales team scorecard. But don't go to their meeting. Don't go to their meeting because the moment you go to that meeting, you change the dynamics
[00:14:32] Lee Brumbaugh: it's absolutely true. And it's funny because I think so much is, and we get it, right? You're the business owner. You're, you wanna have a pulse on everything. And it's like, "Well, I gotta go to the meeting. I gotta go to that person." The other thing is we just talked about processes and tools, right?
[00:14:46] Lee Brumbaugh: I always tell business owners to like, they'll go to the sales rep, "Tell me what you want in a pipe-" You have a CRM. You have access to... Like, we're trying to put in place where you can see data points. And so nothing drives me more nuts than when, when the business owner goes and is asking all these questions like, "You could've looked that up."
[00:15:01] Lee Brumbaugh: You're telling these, you're telling your team members to input the data so we can have visibility to the pipeline and what's going on and a weighted percentage, and then we ignore it. And then the business owner, you know. So really, you know, spot-checking yourself if you're doing what you're put- what you're preaching and practicing too, I think is critically important
[00:15:17] Jason Green: Exactly. And, and also the leadership team scorecard, has enough information on there so you know whether things are working at the other levels of your organizationyou could just have the number of proposals that have gone out every week on, on your leadership team scorecard.
[00:15:31] Jason Green: You don't know who did it and, you know, what, what the process was behind that, but you know 20 went out. And we know that if 20 go out every week, that's gonna lead to, you know, five pieces of business at an average value of, of whatever. So the tools give you confidence as an owner to let go
[00:15:48] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah. And I think the, the, the other part, piece of it, you said a good sales leader too. Hopefully they know, well, we're off on proposals, right? Goal's 20, we're at 10. They're proactively putting it on the issues list. They're embracing like, "We've got an issue here. I need help supporting fixing it." Like, that's the leaders you can work with because they get it once I have capacity.
[00:16:07] Lee Brumbaugh: It's the ones that are trying to smoke screen it and, you know, not... You want to embrace the issue, tackle it as a team. So bubble stuff up and yeah,
[00:16:15] Jason Green: Yeah, I mean, is- issues are just friction in the business. if you can remove that friction, that, that gives your business energy
[00:16:22] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah. when you think about the tools that you have, there's a lot of EOS tools. Like what, what do you... I'll just put you on the spot a little bit. But what do you... I mean, every EOS implementer, there's a sales department checklist, there's different tools and resources. What's your favorite right now?
[00:16:36] Lee Brumbaugh: What are you, what are you finding and, and how, why is that a favorite? Because it, it, you know, and I know UK business may be a little bit different than US, but what tool are your, your teams really embracing right now that, uh, that, that you find is being utilized more?
[00:16:50] Jason Green: that's a difficult question because every team is,different. Every team's different. They're at different stage of their, journey. the tool that is the root of most issues in the business is the accountability chart.
[00:17:06] Jason Green: that is always one of my favorite tools. And so, you know, I often, when we're, when we've got an issue to solve and it, it, it feels like we can't find the root cause, I do get my teams to open up their leadership team manuals to EOS tools section where it lists all the tool.
[00:17:25] Jason Green: And I do say to them, "You know, which tool do you think will solve this issue?" And many times it's, it's a people issue and it, and it's, ambiguity around accountability. You know, who's accountable for what. the company has grown, hit a ceiling, and their structure's become too complex.
[00:17:44] Jason Green: They have an accountability chart, but it's a phantom accountability chart.
[00:17:48] Lee Brumbaugh: What do you mean by, what do you mean by fan? Th- they're, they're just not living and breathing Then the... E- exactly. They have it, but they're operating like this,
[00:17:57] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah,
[00:17:58] Jason Green: which is completely different. And so the issues that are, are bubbling up are basically because there's ambiguity and confusion in there, in the... So yeah, If you're gonna pin me down to one,
[00:18:09] Lee Brumbaugh: No, that's a good... I mean, that's a, I mean, that's the core issue. And so when there, when... What's a, what's a good... What do you see the teams that are most successful with building a really good accountability chart? It's just, is it good role clarification? Is it, you know, right people say- Like what, what's good look like from a great accountability chart, company does it well?
[00:18:27] Jason Green: the key driver is, is the integrator.
[00:18:30] Jason Green: they've got a great integrator that is actually... has focused on getting the right people in the right seats at the leadership team, and is leading and managing that team, and using the tools to help lead and manage those, those teams.
[00:18:46] Jason Green: So, you know, if they've got an issue within a, function, they'll sit down with the owner of the function and go, you know, "What do we need to do? How do we need to structure this to break through the ceiling?" So a great integrator really levels up your business
[00:19:01] Lee Brumbaugh: What do you see from, you know, from visionary to integrator? When is that chemistry working the best so that you've got a great integrator that's owning the business. How does that in- how does that then bubble up to good integrator-visionary relationship?
[00:19:14] Jason Green: Yeah, I mean, that's, that takes time. It takes time because it's like a marriage, that vision, that visionary and integrator. whenever I'm working with a visionary and they s- they, they realize they need to hire an integrator to take their business to the next level, I always advise them to go slowly with that hire because it's so important to, get it right.
[00:19:34] Jason Green: But, when you get it right, it really frees the visionary to do what they're best at and typically that is not leading that management team. So when you get the right integrator in, it gives, it gives that team, direction, clear communication, they're not swapping goals and rocks all the time.
[00:19:53] Jason Green: when you get a visionary and integrator on the same page, it just supercharges the business. it's so powerful. But it, it, it's... You know, it... You... They have to work at it. They have to work at it
[00:20:04] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I mean, I have a great relationship with our integrator and it... But it is, you've gotta, you've gotta be on the same page, honest and open, and there's, like you said, there is work that goes into it. Absolutely. So,
[00:20:15] Jason Green: yeah
[00:20:16] Lee Brumbaugh:
[00:20:16] Lee Brumbaugh: so last question for you. You know, the, the world is changing from a, from a pace of how we pivot and AI perspective and all these different things.
[00:20:24] Lee Brumbaugh: What are the... You know, you're, you're an SMB owner listening today in, in the UK or the US, what's a one last thing that you, you're, you're seeing that companies are doing really well that's making a difference in driving results in their business? Anything that stands out to you of, of what you're seeing in today's marketplace
[00:20:40] Lee Brumbaugh: I think I can talk about this the... I mean, both ways. What's not working,
[00:20:44] Jason Green: Sowhat I'm seeing, like, this is all around AI. So I mean, everybody's talking about AI. AI- AI is, the new piece of technology, isn't it? You know, automation, AI. And throughout my life being, you know, an entrepreneur and now working with about 50 company...
[00:21:01] Jason Green: I've, you know, helped about 50 companies, and I've done about 400-odd EOS sessions. leaders of businesses, So many times they think that technology is gonna help them solve their issues You know, put in a CRM system, put in a ERP system, or, you know, use AI. And it's never worked.
[00:21:23] Jason Green: It never works. You know, Technology does not solve the problems in your, in your business. What you need to do is you need to,align all the human energy in your business. You've gotta sort out, you know, get the right structure, have the right people in the right seats, have the right processes in place.
[00:21:42] Jason Green: You've got to align all that human energy. And then when you add technology to that, AI, whatever it is, that's the multiplier
[00:21:49] Jason Green: for your business. if you've got chaos in your business, if it's, you know, if you've got all this human energy canceling each other out, people don't have clear rocks, they don't have measurables, they don't have a process, and you add AI or technology to that, it just 10x's the the chaos.
[00:22:05] Lee Brumbaugh: so what I'm seeing is great companies, they're running a great business. They've got, you know, they've got all their human energy aligned, and they're adding AI to it. that is significantly multiplying their business. But you've gotta sort that human energy out
[00:22:18] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah, that's well put. And so many, as we talked about earlier at the, at the start, you know, the onset, issues can be negative or positive, but they're opportunities for growth. And when you understand it and you're, you're looking at it, "Okay, we now understand the business problem, let's use AI to function around that."
[00:22:34] Lee Brumbaugh: So many times I'm seeing companies of like, "Oh, we need to fix sales. We'll buy all these different resources that are AI-driven," but you don't understand what is it. A c- again, is it a coaching problem? Is it the top of the funnel? Like, and how does that solution, you know, be built around the technology, you know, stack itself?
[00:22:49] Lee Brumbaugh: So, yeah, I think that's well put. Well, Jason, this has been great. I think we've gotten into the weeds of a lot of different things. I love your perspective on, people and energizing and the accountability portion. So thank you so much for joining
[00:23:01] Jason Green: You're welcome. I really loved it. Thanks. Thanks very much for having, having me
[00:23:05] Lee Brumbaugh: Thank you everybody for joining another episode of Sales Against the Odds. Tune in, in a couple more weeks, we will have another thought leader, business leader that will challenge how we grow our business in the SMB space. Thanks everyone