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#99: Do you know who you’re selling to? Sure, you have a name on a list, but who are they really? What keeps them up at night? What opening line will make them stay on the phone a beat longer to help you close a deal?
On the latest episode of Outbound Sales Lift, Kellen Casebeer shares the ins and outs of building and using an Ideal Customer Profile to help you sell. He explains how deep to go when developing a customer profile, who should be creating an ICP (hint: it’s probably you, at least in part), and how to use your profile to have a memorable conversation with a prospect.
Tyler and Kellen also dive in to attention-grabbing cold call introductions and how to use the concept of dilemmas to engage prospects.
If you want more than just a name on a list for your prospecting, this episode will help you understand the true value of developing an Ideal Customer Profile.
Explore the human side of sales and business with host Tyler Lindley. Leaders in their field share a dose of inspiration through stories about life and business. Sales professionals provide tactical tips you can put into practice today. It all comes together to help you chart your path forward.
Achieve your goals on your terms — get inspired by stories from extraordinary people, elevate your performance with the latest outbound tactics, and find the lift you need to take your career to the next level.
Outbound Sales Lift
Episode #99
Understanding Your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) with Kellen Casebeer
Hosted by: Tyler Lindley
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[00:00:00] Tyler Lindley: Hey y'all.
I'm Tyler and this is Outbound Sales Lift where you can elevate your SDR team and transform your sales development efforts. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy this show, please consider dropping us a rating to help others find us, and you can also subscribe to get each episode delivered straight to you on Tuesdays, right when they're released.
On today's episode, we're gonna be covering ICP, which means ideal customer profile, and I've got the pleasure of being joined by Kellen Casebeer. Hey, Kellen, how's it going? Doing well, Tyler. Good morning. Good morning. All right, awesome. Kellen is a senior sales advisor at sales driven agency and he's also the founder of a sales community called the Speakeasy. And Kellen, when we think about ICP, what is an ICP and why should an SDR care about it?
[00:00:53] Kellen Casebeer: I think simply put, ICP is like who we sell to, right? And that's super simplified and I think it gets glossed over how important that is. To go a little deeper is like, ICP, to me, is specifically who do you sell to? Or rather, who loves to buy your products out of a broad market.
And the more specific we can get of who are the people that love us versus kind of like the broad demand in that market, the more easily we can like find them, write messaging specifically to those people. They'll respond to them better. Higher conversion rates just overall wins. And so to me, there's a lot of refinement on like copy and messaging and channels and all.
I believe that's all downstream though, of who are the people we're actually trying to sell to. And if we just say like, I sell the VPs of sales, it's like, no, you don't .
[00:01:41] Tyler Lindley: So when you say, I sell the VPs of sales, that's not enough it sounds like, is what you're saying? Yeah. More do you need, like how deep should you go down this ICP rabbit hole?
[00:01:50] Kellen Casebeer: I think the deeper you go, the better you are, but you have to balance that with, you have to hit your numbers and metrics. You have to be doing activity every single day with the potential to get like your metrics, but. Every bit unit of energy into like understand your ICP better, like is a multiplier, like a small multiplier on those efforts, right?
Yep. So you couldn't spend, you know, a whole month learning my ICP and then go do my outbound. It's like, no, that's not gonna fly your manager, you know, you'll get fired. And so , I look at it more as like, what is the system I use so that as I'm always doing my outbound, I'm recirculating what I learned back into my knowledge of like who is my I.
And the example of like the VP of sales? It depends. It depends what you sell, right? Right. Because you know there's that company Pavilion. They sell coaching cohorts to sales leaders. And generally it means tech sales leaders. So like if I'm selling for pavilion, I might say I sell to VPs of sales. And if I go on LinkedIn, probably most VPs of sales might be the right people.
But like let's say I sell outreach.io, right? Sales engagement platform. And let's say I sell to VPs of sales because. I know that, so to speak. Well, I'm going to presume that that's because they're the strategic decision maker of the sales department. Outreach is for people who have teams of people running outbound who need sequences, things like that.
And so to say, I sell to a VP of sales, it's like there's plenty of companies with just one person in sales and they're called the vp, right? Yep. That's not a person probably for outreach, right? And so I think it's like, while the assumption of like VP of sales, it's mostly true. Mm-hmm. . A hundred thousand SDRs reaching out to the VP of sales.
And if you're the one person who goes so far as to be like, I reach out to VP of sales of tech companies doing 10 million plus in revenue with at least eight SDRs. Yep. Now you just made it so every other person reaching out, being like, I still the VPs of sales, that guy's like your girl is like, no. Like they're gonna ignore them and you're the one that sounds like you know what you're doing.
Yeah. Because you're willing to like divide it down to a much smaller market or like a smaller.
[00:03:52] Tyler Lindley: You know, it's interesting. Do you think it's the SD R'S responsibility to kind of figure that out and narrow that scope? Or should this really be like the SDR leader or other executives in the company who maybe figure this out and kind of can just communicate that VP of sales, 10 million, eight SDRs?
Like should that be others in the organization figuring it out, or should that be on that SDR doing the outreach?
[00:04:12] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah, I think it's both. So your company, I believe, definitely has the duty to give you this right? But there's limitations, right? So one is, if you think of the feedback loop within a company, if you're in SD today with the product you have today, the messaging you're told to give is what the marketing team decided four quarters ago, , and they're producing the documents for, yeah.
Right? And so it's just a slower feedback loop, like they're telling you this. And also there's a limitation of training, which is like I have to generalize to train to something. And then like the anomaly, like hyper specific. I can't train that up front. It's nuanced. It's in the weeds, it's not the right stuff.
So as an SDR coming in day one, like turn your brain off, learn the icp, your company's training you stuff that's built to be successful. So I do believe start there, but I think if you're an SDR who wants to be a great salesperson or you wanna start a business one day, or you just, you know, wanna do your job really well, you should see it as if I can understand my market better than anyone.
I'll be better. And I would never tell you to just rely on your company to be the person to like get you there because you're on a team of however many other people with the exact same training. How do you stand out just on the same
[00:05:24] Tyler Lindley: stuff? If you're an SDR out there then and you want to be better, you wanna go deeper and you wanna understand your ICP better than anybody else on your team or on your competitor's company's teams, right?
Cuz you're all competing for that mind share of your prospects of attention. How do you get better at understanding that icp if you want to go that extra step?
[00:05:44] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah, I can think in a bunch of ways. Um, okay, so one of the ones that's like kinda a classic is just like if you've booked meetings that went well, asking if you can get more time on their calendar to just talk to 'em and straight up ask.
I reached out to you because I saw this, you took the meeting. It sounds like things went well. Do you mind sharing what specifically made this really attractive to you? I think that's once like customer interviews. I think another one is just like market research in general. Go, you know, people write reviews, like all this information's out there, so go find out.
The way I train it oftentimes is understand like, what do people hate about what you're selling? And then just be like the person who can bring that to light right away. Yep. Right. So if I was calling selling like marketing services, right? Like I advise a bunch of companies to do digital marketing. A lot of 'em are calling and going like, Hey Tyler, like we help business owners drive leads to their website.
Like, would that be worth sending the call? Right? And I tell 'em like, Hey, every business owner wants 20% more qualified leads, yet thousands of millions of those calls happen a day. And people say, no, why? And the answer is not that they don't want the thing you said, it's that they don't believe you
Right? Because it's just like you're just promising something outta context. And so what I train is like, why not call that same person and be like, Tyler, I know you get 500 calls a week from people telling you they can put 20% more leads coming through your pipeline. And you tell them no or hang up or eight seconds in.
Do you mind me letting you know why I think you might be willing to let me be one of the only. To have the conversation with you. You know, things like that. That wasn't actually good.
[00:07:10] Tyler Lindley: Well, but I get it. You're almost like bringing up that objection on the front end of like, Hey, I know you get a lot of these and they all sound and look the same, but let me tell you why we're a little bit different.
Right. And then it sounds like right on the back end of that, you've gotta have that key differentiator, that value prop, whatever makes you stand out from the other 500. My
[00:07:28] Kellen Casebeer: methodology is question asking. I believe in like asking questions to show compet. And so when I do that, if they say, Hey, I don't normally take these, but go ahead,
Yeah, go ahead. I'd just be like, awesome. Look, if I were to tell you right now what I do, you'd hang up then because it would be completely outta context. Can I ask you three questions, including this one in order to put a little bit more behind it? Yep. Yes. And then be like, okay, awesome. First underhand softball question.
All those calls you get that you hang up on, what is the number one thing that you don't believe about what they say? Right? Something like that. Whatever that thing is. I think a good question is what do you not believe? Well, they don't know my business, blah, blah. Right. And so then I would go, okay, great.
So if you don't mind me being really direct, are you of the belief that digital marketing agencies could not help your business? Is our industry more or less a scam? Right. And if they go like, no, no, no, it's not that. And I go,
[00:08:19] Tyler Lindley: we're not a scam. I've been, I've got a million dollar business. It's not a scam.
What are you
[00:08:22] Kellen Casebeer: talking about? And so then if you go, okay, great. So if you believe that this thing can work, but most of 'em you believe wouldn't work for you, what are they not seeing that you think is really important? Hmm. It's kind of like Alex Hormo does, like, you know, I think it's like on a scale of one to 10, how close to 10 are you and ready to buy right now?
Yeah. Right. And whatever they say, what would you have to get to a 10? Yep. Same idea. The whole thing is SDS oftentimes are like arguing into objections, and I just believe of like, Understanding people better, like don't argue. It's like, okay, yeah, you are there. Like, help me understand why. Like where's that coming from?
Right.
[00:08:55] Tyler Lindley: And it sounds like these questions too ke, are almost like giving you that data to better understand this icp, to understand this person. Yeah. What their problems they're going through, what their business looks like, what keeps 'em up at night. Like all these things, if you ask the right questions, you're almost doing that market research just by having conversations.
Right? A hundred percent. And then you can leverage those answers. To make your next call a little bit better. Cuz now you can say, well, hey, I was just talking to so and so and they said that they were, as an agency, they were facing blank. Right. And you can, you're speaking now from a place of understanding and perspective versus just like, well, yeah, here's what they told me to say.
[00:09:30] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah. And also I think it's about, you're asking these questions like you're saying, it's like it gives you this experimentation. Like opportunity and, and one of the other things too is like, there's what you say, there's how you say things. I'm a big believer in professionalism spectrum. A lot of people, SDRs tend to be like, all right, I'm in this, I'm in this new company.
It's this big company, you know, it's this thing. I like, I have this role. I have a boss. They get robotic. A lot of times I think salespeople are like too dry, too direct, not too direct, but like dry, direct. Like this just sounds like a.
[00:10:00] Tyler Lindley: Thing. It sounds super canned almost, I think.
[00:10:03] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just like a blank promise.
[00:10:05] Tyler Lindley: Yeah, it feels empty probably too, because the SDR probably doesn't really believe it anyways. It's just like, well, that's just what I was told to say, so. Exactly.
[00:10:13] Kellen Casebeer: I have a friend who has a professional opera singer, actually, and he's a cold caller. He sells cyber singer , but like,
[00:10:19] Tyler Lindley: That's such an interesting dynamic.
Copper singer and cold caller. Yeah.
[00:10:22] Kellen Casebeer: He was also on that show, the Granite Games that like the Rock host did. He's like a freak out. He's just like a freak jack of
[00:10:28] Tyler Lindley: all trades. So like, yeah.
[00:10:30] Kellen Casebeer: But like he ran a cold workshop one time for my Slack group and the thing he was talking about was like matching frequency or energy.
And he was like, you know, you call the guy and they're like, is this a cold call? He's like, what do you wanna say? Like what's the honest thing? Right? And people are like, it is a cold call. He's like, no, go further. Right. And like, I dunno if I can swear, but he is like, this is an F cold call. Right. . And like basically the idea was a lot of times sales dev reps try to like, be professional, try to kind of like, Have their pattern they wanna follow.
That's not human interaction. That's not a fun human interaction, right? And so my buddy Michael, like he's all about meet their energy, like call 'em on it, right? Like, oh, is this a cold call? Like, yeah, this is a fun cold call, . Like, that's exactly what's going on here, right? And. Being willing to be like the one person who's bold enough to like call it like it is, bring it, you know, be really direct.
Like you said, it's just you. You learn your market. Like you might find out that like really direct doesn't work. You might find out that like making jokes doesn't work. But honestly I think that if you think of like the personas we sell into, a lot of times they're very direct executive, like to the point.
That's all true. And so it's like you need to be direct. But a lot of times when you're like, people who deal with direct people are a little bit like fearful of them. Yes. Right. Or they place themselves under them and that's not a good place to come from. So really I'm like, I want to take it to 'em and I wanna be like, look, I know what you're gonna be feeling.
Like I know your attitude towards this, but here I am anyways. And like if you think I'm just an idiot calling you for no reason, great. But I have a reason. Yeah. Are you willing to.
[00:11:57] Tyler Lindley: Hang up on me, which they would, right. If they, if they truly think that. But I agree. It's a little bit of that challenger mentality too, of being able to, to think like, I, I am a peer and not just a little sdr, you know, the little engine that could, like, you've gotta come in from a place of confidence and strength and I think to what we've been talking about, Understanding who's on the other end of the phone or who's likely to be on the other end of the phone, and really getting into that icp.
Not just defining like their job, but also maybe defining who are they, right? Who are, what are their values? What do they care about? What do they read? What podcasts do they listen to, like go and do and interact with those things so you can try to walk a day in their shoes. Now you're never gonna be like able to like be a VP of sales for a.
But you can under certainly understand, like what do they think about, what do they talk about? Who do they talk to? What do they read? What do they engage with? And you go and try to engage with those things and understand those things so that then you're speaking from that place of it's more peer to peer, even though you don't have the same job level.
That doesn't matter. You are still a human being. They're a human being, and if you speak like that, you'll have better conversations. Yeah,
[00:13:00] Kellen Casebeer: a hundred percent. I use the term dilemmas for what I wanna understand about people, which comes from Jiujitsu. Actually, as you know, I still love Netflix. The term of dilemma in Jiujitsu is I can put you in positions and be doing things where you have to react.
But I know that you only have two reactions you can give. And I have an answer to each of them, and that's a dilemma. So it's like a great jiu-jitsu practitioner might win, like they'll know they won, not just when they get like the submission, but Oh, I got you in this dilemma. Like, oh, I have you here.
What are you gonna choose? Right. You know, so it's like almost like a game
[00:13:31] Tyler Lindley: of chess it sounds like. Like you kinda put people, you put people into a circumstance and you wanting an ab reaction and you kind of know where you're going either way. Exactly.
[00:13:39] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah. And work, we're all in dilemmas, right?
[00:13:42] Tyler Lindley: Every day.
We're a dilemma in this interview right now. Cause it's like, well, ke could say something and I've gotta go one of two directions. Right? Or
[00:13:49] Kellen Casebeer: vice versa. Well, it, not even just that, but like, think of a business owner, right? The business owner who I'm calling about 20% more leads. The dilemma they're in is, I am certain they wanna grow their business and make more money.
Yep. And I'm calling them about that, right? So that's one sided dilemmas, like one path is like, do it, but why are they not doing that? Because they're in the dilemma. They don't trust me and they get a lot of spam calls like this. Yep. Right? And so sometimes people call and they're just talking about the upside.
Some people, sometimes people call and talk about the downside. Hey, you know, you probably don't trust these. I want to call it like it is, Hey Tyler, I know that you need to grow your business. You're not a marketing expert. And if you're gonna do. You need to lean into some marketing expertise. Yeah. But you get like 500 calls a day and like 498 of them sound like an absolute joke to you.
Yep. Right. We're eight seconds into this one, so maybe I'm not one of the jokes to you. Do you mind me asking you a couple of questions to see if we can help you with that dilemma or would that be a complete waste of your time?
[00:14:41] Tyler Lindley: Yeah, which I love the permission coming off of that, like you're calling it, like you see it, you're asking for permission and now, I mean, I would say a lot of folks just given how different that, that's a huge pattern interrupt from what they nor normally.
Just given how different it is, I guarantee you get a lot. 80% of folks would say, okay, like, go ahead. Yeah. What do you have? And then you better be ready with those questions now to like really nail those. Cuz you've got the stage, the audience, the time, the permission. Now it's time to, it's time to execute.
[00:15:07] Kellen Casebeer: Yeah. And which by the way goes back to understanding your ICP because if you don't understand your ICP well if I'm like. Hey, I know you wanna grow sales, right? They're like, dude, what the hell? Like what? Like ? Yeah. Like that's
[00:15:18] Tyler Lindley: so generic, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, well, that's what everybody else would say, right?
But, but I guess what you're saying is you want to define the problem or the outcome way more specifically than anyone else, it sounds like. Like you want to get as narrow as you can and then hopefully that hits a nerve and then they're all of a sudden, hey, think that curiosity, which like we were talking about before, that's all we're trying to do is SDRs.
Pick the curiosity, understand if we're in the ballpark here, and then let's let the AE do their job from there. Yeah, and
[00:15:47] Kellen Casebeer: what's great is I actually think it tees up AEs better too because it's not being like, Hey, because it's like I'm not going like, Hey, here's this valuable thing. Like if I just go like, Hey, business owners often don't know how to run sales.
Like, would you be interested in learning a little bit about how we could build sales for you? They're saying yes, but I only share the top end and when my AE goes in there, starts asking questions, I know what is going to. The prospect is gonna bring up the objections, they're gonna bring up the bottom end.
They're gonna go, oh yeah, yeah, this is great. But right. And so if I go in from the get go and go, Tyler, I know that you are stuck between this and this, you know, you gotta reconcile that. And if you wanna grow the business, you gotta go here. But if you go here, you're really worried you're gonna get screwed over.
And I think that your ability to judge, you know, who's a good player. Is majorly impactful over how much revenue you can make next year, right? And by teeing it up through that dilemma, when the AE steps in, they're not going like, so what do you wanna do? Oh, we could help you do that. Oh wait, we can overcome this objection.
They're going like, so, man, look like. I get it. You're in a tough spot. You aren't an expert at this thing. You need this thing to grow. But you're also not an expert, so it's hard for you to choose it. Now, I'm not here to try to tell you what you need to do. I'm here to be a resource and go into your discovery, like whatever questions you have, but it's much more consultative.
It's cutting through all of the bsy because prospects are like scared to admit pains because they think we're gonna pounce on them. Yep. So if we say, I know the pain, but I also know the other side of why you don't do something about it now, it doesn't feel like I'm su like trying to just drive them forward.
It's like, no, no, I get it. Like you're in this thing and we're gonna like reconcile that together. I'm glad you
[00:17:26] Tyler Lindley: brought up pain. Like when we think about defining an ICP in sales development, is understanding the prospects pain or potential pain, is that a big part of it, you think? Yeah. To
[00:17:36] Kellen Casebeer: me the dilemma thing is that, cause I, I just say it as like, I think you need to know their pains, but you need to understand why they have those pains and they're not solved.
And you need to realize like, you know, no offense to like, let's say you a hundred kcr great sd, it's like we're talking a million dollar earn. We need to assume that the obvious thing that we see they saw as well. And I think that this is where a lot of SDRs lose kudos and why, again, knowing the ICP is so important is like if you bring like obvious shit to people, they don't like it, they're not going to feel good.
So it's like you can be like, oh, I know what you deal with. Like you have to hire a bunch. But it's hard to find good people. They're like, Yeah. Like there are a million of us without like, yes. But if you can come to 'em and be like, you need to hire a bunch. It's really hard. And most people solve that by this, this, or this.
But when I see a company who's not doing either three, I make the assumption that this other thing, mm-hmm. , is that approximately what you're dealing with? Right. And all of a sudden it's like, wow, that's very astute. Right. I'm not just saying like, why aren't you doing these things? Like that's, it's like it's showing that I'm trying to put this together myself.
It's almost like I'm asking them for help. Like, I'm not trying to ask you, is this your pain? And you to like lay your so, you know, shield down and be like, yes. You know, how can you save me? As I'm looking at what you're doing, I'm seeing these things like, what's the missing piece here? Mm-hmm. . Right? And by making it so that they are incentivized to answer, because it's almost like, again, going back to the dilemma, if I can phrase this in a way where the dilemma is like, there's this obvious thing you could be doing to help this, but you're not, help me understand why you're gonna get the objection, but you don't sound like you're trying to sell them and that you're gonna overcome it.
You sound like you're aligning on their positioning. Yep. Right. Alex Hormo has this quote that. Prospects buy from a person that they believe understands 'em the best. Yep. Right. And I think that that's what this is. It's like, I'll use the analogy of cats, right? So cats are wired to like pounce, right?
They're predators. And when a cat has like a mouse walking by it, it will shake, right? Because what's going on is it's physiology is telling it to pounce, attack, kill, right? But it is consciously trying to withhold itself because every bit it waits, it's like percentage likelihood of success increase. And so it cats will physically shake from this because they have like competing, like nerves firing, like attack weight, attack weight, and so they'll shake.
I think sales dev is like the same stuff. If you think that you have enough to book a meeting, great. If you go one question deeper, you're only gonna probably get better. And so to me it's like, how can you be the person who's patient enough? Yep. Will the conversation to talk about real pains and not just jump on them so that you sound like you're outta context.
Like, all right, Tyler. Hey, look, I know every company needs to grow and it's great that like we're having a conversation about how we can bring in more opportunities, but it sounds like there's some issues with the sales team as is. Do we believe that like even if you had all of these, would you be closing 'em at a clip that even makes sense to do this?
Where is it that like I could crush what we're talking about, but the rest of the business isn't suited to like handle that. Yeah. Right. Being able to think forward and like think in context of like what actually is going on. Not just like my little silo makes me a business partner to 'em. Right. They're happy to have the conversation because I don't come off like, you know, it comes off like I am actually being empathetic.
You know, people use these words, empathy, provide value, like all these things, but they're almost never. Genuinely
[00:20:56] Tyler Lindley: that, well, they never actually happen. I mean it's, and I like, I like what you said about the her mossy quote, and I always say, you wanna seek to understand before we seek to prescribe. I think a lot of SCRs come in leading with like, well, we do this and we do this and we can help you with this and this is how we do it and this is how we're better.
Like, don't you wanna chat about that? Is it crazy to grab 20 minutes now? Versus like, there's no understanding, you know? And usually when I hear calls that go that way, I usually go back and I. So before you asked for that meeting, what did you understand about their business that you thought they would be a good fit to have a 30 minute meeting with our, like, what did you understand?
And you, uh, well, uh, I mean, I don't, you know, I just knew they picked up and it sounded like they were interested. So, bro. Yeah, exactly. Because I need, I was the cat and I needed to pounce, you know? Yeah. And I get like, there's that competing priority for SDRs too, of like, I need to book meetings. I have a quota over my.
And if I don't get enough AE time, I'm like on their calendar from me. I don't get paid. So I get that competing priority. But you can, I think, rush that process and and miss the whole seeking to understand. And then you have no show rates through the roof, right? People don't show up. People don't, people don't understand what you do.
People don't care because you actually just like shoved a meeting down their throat. And some people just say yes to get you off
[00:22:14] Kellen Casebeer: the. Yeah. Well, and also, I mean it's just, that's the dilemma of the sales sdr. Yes. Like that is the dilemma. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Where it's like understanding an sd, cuz it's like, imagine going to SD and just telling 'em like, Hey guys, you can't just pitch to everyone.
We gotta make sure they're qualified. Yeah. Right. Like that is lacking empathy because it's way better if I go look, I. You make a hundred calls a day, you maybe get five conversations, and if you're not booking one of those, you're, you're really stressed because you might be missing your number. And so I understand that.
Every person you talk to, you need to maximize the opportunity for it. Yes. Right? That's meeting them with the dilemma and then going, look, I need you to understand. That if you're talking to the person you could help and you don't ask the right questions, you, they will say no to you even if you're the perfect product.
And so while you're coming at this trying to get everything you can from it, you'll actually get more by spending more time being willing to go into like their current situation, what they're dealing with, where they want to go, then you're gonna really be able to crush it. Yep. Right. And when you can teach that to an scr, it's actually really easy to teach to help them understand like your prospect is doing the same thing, just like you need to convert something.
They're also so it. And it's funny because that's what drives buying the known brands. Yeah. It's what drives low deal prices. Right. Because a lot of times it's like if, if we have an established great fit, it's like, oh, like yeah, I need more sales. I'll buy, you know, sales advisor, right? Like if that's all you've established, they're gonna go with the budget thing.
Because there's no scope, there's no success metrics, there's no specificity, there's no risk in that. There's nothing. Right. And so if someone comes to me and they're like, oh, we need a sales coach. You know, our budget's $2,000. It's like, yeah, I could probably go like, yeah, sure I do that, but like, really?
You wanna be like $2,000? How'd you come up with that number? Right. And they'll tell you where'd you pull that from? Right. And then like you expect $2,000 to be able to produce a million dollars more and close one revenue this next year. Yeah. No. Okay. So what do you think it would fairly cost if your expectation is that a great coach could come in and help you close a million more dollars in revenue, how much do you think that person would deserve of giving that result?
Is it two grand a month? Or whatever number we had said. Right? And so it's like, be it. It helps you sell bigger deals by understanding what are these people actually dealing with, what are the actual constraints? Also, because a lot of times we assume that like the constraints they tell us are real. So it might be being like, you know, Hey, I understand you only have $2,000 allocated for digital marketing.
I also know that historically your digital marketing spend has been similar to lighting money on fire, right? If you were seeing a return of like 10 x on your ad spend, would you really only be willing to spend two grand or right? Like would we be able to have a 10 K discussion if you believe that that's what you were gonna be getting?
Yep. A hundred percent. And that's the conversation you want because now you're in a 10 k monthly deal instead of a two K monthly deal because you're challenging this assumption, right? And like a week SDR might be like, oh, okay, $2,000 a month. Yeah, I think we can do that. Like, let's get time on the calendar, right?
But. You know, is it ? Well, even it's like, I don't know. I'm a believer, like I don't want the prospects that appreciate me for giving 'em a good deal. I want the prospects that appreciate me for like really challenging them. Pushing 'em
[00:25:19] Tyler Lindley: in a way. Exactly, exactly. For pushing 'em. Yeah. Awesome. Kellen, I know we could go on all day, but I, I really appreciate the conversation.
You can find Kellen on LinkedIn, so look up Kellen Casebeer on LinkedIn and check out everything he's doing. Hope you enjoyed this episode of Outbound Sales Lift. If you need help elevating your SDR team, please visit our website at thesaleslift.com to learn more, and also make sure you hit subscribe wherever you get podcasts.
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