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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks.
00:00:04 [Speaker 1]
The show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process.
00:00:13 [Speaker 1]
But not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right place.
00:00:47 [Speaker 1]
Hello.
00:00:48 [Speaker 1]
Hello, everybody, and welcome in to Type Speaks.
00:00:51 [Speaker 1]
This will be the Twisseau.
00:00:53 [Speaker 1]
We're getting close to the teenage years, so this is very exciting.
00:00:57 [Speaker 1]
Maybe, again, we'll have a rebellious phase, but who knows?
00:01:01 [Speaker 1]
I am gonna be joined with designer and educator Mitch Goldstein.
00:01:06 [Speaker 1]
Is that right?
00:01:07 [Speaker 1]
I didn't ask you beforehand.
00:01:08 [Speaker 1]
Goldstein?
00:01:09 [Speaker 2]
Awesome.
00:01:09 [Speaker 2]
That's right.
00:01:10 [Speaker 2]
You got
00:01:11 [Speaker 1]
it.
00:01:11 [Speaker 1]
And a quick bio is you are a designer, artist, educator, and author based in Rochester, New York.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
You are an associate professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology's School of Design.
00:01:21 [Speaker 1]
You've also taught at RSID, FIS, and MICA.
00:01:26 [Speaker 1]
Your creative practice, you spend graphic design, photography, and sculpture, and also furniture design.
00:01:32 [Speaker 1]
It's a new one.
00:01:32 [Speaker 1]
I saw you added.
00:01:35 [Speaker 2]
That's true.
00:01:35 [Speaker 2]
I I do.
00:01:37 [Speaker 1]
You also write and talk widely about design education, the creative process, and you're also the author of How to be a Design Student and How to Teach Them, which I'm currently reading.
00:01:46 [Speaker 1]
I should have probably finished finished that before this.
00:01:49 [Speaker 1]
That's okay.
00:01:50 [Speaker 1]
But
00:01:51 [Speaker 2]
I appreciate you reading
00:01:53 [Speaker 1]
it.
00:01:53 [Speaker 1]
It's hard to find time for books that I'm
00:01:56 [Speaker 2]
Of course.
00:01:57 [Speaker 2]
Of course.
00:01:57 [Speaker 2]
I get it.
00:01:57 [Speaker 1]
I wanted to get a little bit, knowledgeable, obviously.
00:02:01 [Speaker 1]
But that that that all sound good?
00:02:03 [Speaker 1]
Alright?
00:02:04 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:04 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:02:05 [Speaker 2]
That was great.
00:02:06 [Speaker 2]
Accurate.
00:02:07 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:02:07 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:02:08 [Speaker 1]
So first, every every single time, I always ask because I'm I'm always curious is your start in design or just the creative field in general?
00:02:17 [Speaker 1]
Like, were you a kid that drew on the walls and, like, was
00:02:21 [Speaker 2]
how much time we got?
00:02:23 [Speaker 2]
I'll give you, like, an abbreviated version.
00:02:26 [Speaker 2]
I basically when I'm graduate I've always been interested mostly in architecture when I was a little kid, so since I was maybe eight or 10.
00:02:33 [Speaker 2]
And I went to I got into Syracuse University in Upstate New York, their architecture program.
00:02:38 [Speaker 2]
I actually got into what they called pre architecture, which was like a year where you sort of floated and did some stuff, and then they decided to let you in or not.
00:02:46 [Speaker 2]
And I managed to get actually into the program.
00:02:50 [Speaker 2]
And I did that for a couple years and then failed out horribly, which was probably for the best.
00:02:56 [Speaker 2]
And then I pretty much just worked a lot of retail stuff and nothing really interesting for a long time.
00:03:00 [Speaker 2]
I I think for, like, twelve, thirteen years.
00:03:04 [Speaker 2]
But I was always, you know, artistic.
00:03:06 [Speaker 2]
I always made work.
00:03:07 [Speaker 2]
I I had some painting galleries here and there, you know, just kinda on and off, but nothing ever really serious.
00:03:12 [Speaker 2]
And then eventually, a couple of friends opened up a, like, a media studio, like a media design studio doing mostly web stuff.
00:03:20 [Speaker 2]
And I was got to be a part of that.
00:03:22 [Speaker 2]
It was just like four of us in, like, an old dentist office.
00:03:24 [Speaker 2]
You know, we rented space.
00:03:26 [Speaker 2]
And, that was pretty cool for a couple of years, but I was kinda hitting a ceiling of what I could really do with kind of no degree and just, like, taught myself stuff, especially web stuff.
00:03:35 [Speaker 2]
It was obviously very technical.
00:03:37 [Speaker 2]
And so eventually, I kinda hit a point where I was just getting frustrated.
00:03:40 [Speaker 2]
And although the guys I was working with, it just well, I just couldn't go further.
00:03:44 [Speaker 2]
And then I eventually, my dad was like, you should think about going back to school.
00:03:49 [Speaker 2]
And I'm like, Like, don't be an asshole.
00:03:51 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:03:53 [Speaker 2]
I swear a lot, by the way.
00:03:54 [Speaker 2]
I hope is that a is that okay?
00:03:55 [Speaker 1]
It's fine.
00:03:56 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:03:56 [Speaker 2]
Great.
00:03:58 [Speaker 2]
You can sense maybe Sometimes
00:03:59 [Speaker 1]
it's part of the pro is the creative process, I think.
00:04:03 [Speaker 2]
And so basically, I I did he was like, you should really think about going back to school.
00:04:06 [Speaker 2]
And I was like, I that's not gonna happen.
00:04:07 [Speaker 2]
He's like, just try it.
00:04:08 [Speaker 2]
And so I applied to, the local college where I was in in Rhode Island and then RISD Mhmm.
00:04:14 [Speaker 2]
Which is a pretty impressive place.
00:04:17 [Speaker 2]
And I was like, obviously, I'm not gonna get into RISD, but maybe I'll get to go to this other school.
00:04:20 [Speaker 2]
And the other school didn't take me and RISD took me out of scholarship, which was very surprising.
00:04:25 [Speaker 2]
So I instantly was, like, that's it.
00:04:27 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:04:27 [Speaker 2]
And really my life changed.
00:04:28 [Speaker 2]
Like, that really was that was I was 31.
00:04:32 [Speaker 2]
30, 31 when I went back for my BFA.
00:04:34 [Speaker 2]
And that completely altered my entire life.
00:04:36 [Speaker 2]
Like, that was something that I can't stress enough how important that was for me.
00:04:41 [Speaker 2]
And so I I was there.
00:04:43 [Speaker 2]
I now former partner there.
00:04:46 [Speaker 2]
We graduated together.
00:04:47 [Speaker 2]
We opened up a studio together.
00:04:49 [Speaker 2]
And then I eventually got to grad school in Virginia, and then eventually got the job where I'm at now, which is, Rochester Institute of Technology in Upstate New York.
00:05:00 [Speaker 2]
And I've been here for thirteen years, twelve, thirteen years.
00:05:04 [Speaker 2]
I got tenure a few years ago.
00:05:06 [Speaker 2]
And so I've been kind of, you know, teaching and and working creatively.
00:05:10 [Speaker 2]
And then after I got tenure to the furniture design thing, I decided I wanted to get another mask because why not do that?
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
Everybody was looking at me like, are you out of your mind?
00:05:18 [Speaker 2]
And I'm like, this is amazing.
00:05:19 [Speaker 2]
I get to do this.
00:05:20 [Speaker 2]
Like, you know, it was free tuition and the college was excited about it.
00:05:24 [Speaker 2]
So I basically got a master's degree in furniture design.
00:05:26 [Speaker 2]
We have a really excellent furniture program here.
00:05:30 [Speaker 2]
And so now my practice is kind of like all this shit together.
00:05:34 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's it's teaching and it's like writing.
00:05:37 [Speaker 2]
It's this book I wrote.
00:05:38 [Speaker 2]
And then it's also, like, art making.
00:05:40 [Speaker 2]
And a lot of the art has become it was started out very flat.
00:05:44 [Speaker 2]
I did a lot of, like, photo gram, like Darko stuff for a long time, and then that morphed into collage.
00:05:50 [Speaker 2]
And that's now moved into more sculptural objects, which are, again, kind of, like, smashing all the stuff I like kind of together in a way I'm still kind of ultimately figuring out.
00:06:01 [Speaker 2]
So that's kinda like the quick that's the quick version.
00:06:04 [Speaker 1]
That's the quick version?
00:06:05 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:06:05 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:06:07 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:06:08 [Speaker 1]
That all sounds super interesting.
00:06:10 [Speaker 1]
I mean Yeah.
00:06:10 [Speaker 2]
It was it's pretty been pretty pretty interesting ride, which is great.
00:06:13 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:06:14 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:06:16 [Speaker 1]
So one thing I also like to ask, I think it's gonna be interesting hearing your answer because you have, like, a very different a hand a hand in a very a lot of different pots, I like to say.
00:06:25 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:06:26 [Speaker 1]
Does your process change, or do you find that it stays the same in each of those areas?
00:06:31 [Speaker 1]
Like, if you're kind of creating something in in, let's say, graphic design versus if you're doing something I don't know, making a chair, if you do that?
00:06:40 [Speaker 2]
That's a really good question.
00:06:42 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I think inherently it does change, but I think my general attitude doesn't change.
00:06:49 [Speaker 2]
I think the belt obviously shifts depending on what I'm doing.
00:06:52 [Speaker 2]
Like, I no longer do client work.
00:06:53 [Speaker 2]
I don't need to do client work anymore, so that conversation is sort of over for me.
00:06:58 [Speaker 2]
But even when it was doing client stuff, and I would argue even like the book and things like that.
00:07:04 [Speaker 2]
I think my process is my attitude is similar in that I am a horrible, horrible procrastinator, and it's a huge problem.
00:07:12 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:07:13 [Speaker 2]
And we actually think we my therapist thinks I may have ADHD, so that's part of the conversation right now.
00:07:17 [Speaker 2]
We're, like, figuring that out.
00:07:20 [Speaker 2]
She's like, you know, think about this.
00:07:21 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, oh, interesting.
00:07:22 [Speaker 2]
So, like, I'm a horrible procrastinator, but I kind of feel like once I go, I go, and that works for me.
00:07:29 [Speaker 2]
And so my process tends to be what I would consider kinda quick and dirty and what what other artists who are really work in real media consider very anal retentive and uptight.
00:07:41 [Speaker 2]
So I sort of, like, sit in between these spaces.
00:07:45 [Speaker 2]
And so I think that my process is always very I would call it gestural, like, very, I'm I'm not great at planning.
00:07:52 [Speaker 2]
I probably should be.
00:07:53 [Speaker 2]
I think that would maybe help a little bit.
00:07:54 [Speaker 2]
And so I really like kind of playing with materials.
00:07:56 [Speaker 2]
I really like kind of not knowing where stuff is going and having what I would call like an emergent process where stuff kind of bubbles out of what I'm doing versus knowing what I want to do at the end and then just getting to the end, which is kind of not I think that's how a lot of designers tend to think, and I kind of don't think that way, which is great and also super frustrating and and challenging to kinda know where I'm going with stuff.
00:08:18 [Speaker 2]
So I have kinda stops and starts and things kinda crash and burn a lot for me.
00:08:21 [Speaker 2]
But, again, I'm in this place now where I can do that, and it's okay.
00:08:24 [Speaker 2]
I don't have to you know, doing a client project isn't gonna pay my rent anymore.
00:08:27 [Speaker 2]
It's not something to deal with.
00:08:29 [Speaker 2]
So I I'm also very aware of where I'm at.
00:08:31 [Speaker 2]
I'm very lucky and and have a level of privilege a lot of people don't have.
00:08:35 [Speaker 2]
So I'm always kind of very hyper aware of that.
00:08:37 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:08:38 [Speaker 2]
So that's, like, a really difficult question to answer.
00:08:40 [Speaker 2]
Answer.
00:08:40 [Speaker 2]
It's a really good question.
00:08:41 [Speaker 2]
I it it shifts a lot, but I think my general, like, push is
00:08:45 [Speaker 1]
always the same.
00:08:46 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:08:46 [Speaker 2]
Like, my my kind of approach is kinda similar.
00:08:48 [Speaker 2]
But where I go with that approach changes a lot.
00:08:50 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:08:51 [Speaker 1]
I That's a
00:08:52 [Speaker 2]
tough question.
00:08:53 [Speaker 2]
Good question.
00:08:54 [Speaker 1]
I mean, I relate to that a lot.
00:08:55 [Speaker 1]
As someone with a d I couldn't even say the the dang the dang thing.
00:09:01 [Speaker 1]
As someone with ADHD, that is exactly what I my process is go and
00:09:07 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:07 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:07 [Speaker 2]
I'm awesome at ending and horrible at starting.
00:09:10 [Speaker 1]
If I'm starting, it it gets to an end, I couldn't tell you what happens in between.
00:09:14 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:09:15 [Speaker 2]
There you go.
00:09:16 [Speaker 1]
But I also wanted to ask about you talked about crashing and burning, which happens a lot, I think, in everyone's work.
00:09:25 [Speaker 1]
I think I don't think you can get good work without crashing and burning a few times.
00:09:28 [Speaker 2]
Agreed.
00:09:30 [Speaker 1]
How would you say that plays into your process a bit?
00:09:32 [Speaker 1]
Like
00:09:33 [Speaker 2]
cons constantly.
00:09:34 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:09:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:35 [Speaker 2]
I I think I think it's an innate part of of being I think that as an educator, you know, I'm a professional educator.
00:09:41 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:09:42 [Speaker 2]
So I see students, you know, where you were at or whatever trying to do this.
00:09:45 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:09:46 [Speaker 2]
And I think that there is a lot of sort of assumed pressure to do it correctly.
00:09:52 [Speaker 2]
I'm air quoting since you guys can't see what I'm doing.
00:09:54 [Speaker 2]
I'm air quoting.
00:09:56 [Speaker 2]
And I think that's that's kind of a bullshit idea.
00:09:58 [Speaker 2]
I really think that that part of getting past a comfort zone with your work is doing stuff that's going to burn and it's going to fail.
00:10:09 [Speaker 2]
And I really think that a lot of what I'm doing as an educator is in not making students fail.
00:10:15 [Speaker 2]
I don't wanna say this in a way that sounds dumb.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
I'm not hoping they fail, but I'm allowing for failure because failure will result in them learning and moving forward.
00:10:24 [Speaker 2]
So I grade primarily on process and decision making and very little on the thing they make, which sounds kinda kinda backwards.
00:10:33 [Speaker 2]
But I think we in education, the point is to educate.
00:10:36 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:10:36 [Speaker 2]
When they're in commercial practice, then it's a different conversation.
00:10:39 [Speaker 2]
But when they're in school, they're there to learn of learning is going down those roads that don't work and learning what tends to work and what tends not to, and learn from there.
00:10:47 [Speaker 2]
And so I kinda think I keep that in my own practice.
00:10:49 [Speaker 2]
Like, I have a lot of false starts and a lot of stuff that I'm like, oh, that could be interesting.
00:10:54 [Speaker 2]
And I go and, like, five minutes into it, I'm like, well, that was stupid, you know.
00:10:57 [Speaker 2]
Or sometimes it's five days into it or whatever.
00:11:00 [Speaker 2]
And I kinda think that's the game we play.
00:11:02 [Speaker 2]
Like, I think that's what it is.
00:11:04 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:11:05 [Speaker 2]
Like like, I don't I I I don't disavow the idea of expertise, but I sort of feel like I'm becoming an in working the way I work, which is badly.
00:11:15 [Speaker 2]
Like like, in a way you know what I mean?
00:11:16 [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm trying to say that in order.
00:11:19 [Speaker 2]
And I think that's important.
00:11:20 [Speaker 2]
And I think kinda like getting who you are as an artist or designer, as a creative person, again, I I would argue that's a lot of what I'm teaching is just how to be you.
00:11:29 [Speaker 2]
Not how to do it how I do it.
00:11:30 [Speaker 2]
Like, I do it how I do it.
00:11:32 [Speaker 2]
You you don't need to do it the way I do it.
00:11:34 [Speaker 2]
But how do you do it?
00:11:35 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:11:35 [Speaker 2]
And and not how do you do it based on what some, like, you know, dead white guy that you learned about in our history told you how to do it.
00:11:41 [Speaker 2]
But, like, how do you do it?
00:11:43 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:11:43 [Speaker 2]
It's really important and it's also extremely hard to teach.
00:11:46 [Speaker 2]
And and I still don't know how to teach it, but I'm trying all the time.
00:11:49 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:11:50 [Speaker 1]
It it is definitely hard to teach.
00:11:52 [Speaker 1]
I feel like I've only slightly learned how to be my own creative in my senior year.
00:11:58 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:11:59 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:12:00 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of students, I mean, like me in general, early into, like, coming into design and and and learning and finally getting the freedom to, like, make our own projects with our own ideas Mhmm.
00:12:12 [Speaker 1]
Are afraid of kind of going outside that box or even just, like, asking to kind of asking to change it a little bit or asking to, oh, can I do this instead of of this?
00:12:22 [Speaker 1]
That's a it's a fear that is hard to overcome.
00:12:25 [Speaker 1]
Is are there certain things that you can you have seen that work to help push students in that direction?
00:12:32 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:12:33 [Speaker 2]
Do first, apologize later.
00:12:36 [Speaker 2]
Just do it.
00:12:37 [Speaker 2]
And and and I know this sounds really flippant to sit here where I'm standing and say that and kind of, like, like, see you.
00:12:42 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:12:44 [Speaker 2]
But I really do think that I can speak on behalf.
00:12:46 [Speaker 2]
A lot of educators when I say, like, if you wanna go for something and you really are going for it and you're not lazy and it's not about, like, not caring and it's not about, like, less work for yourself, but you got a direction and you wanna go for it, I am almost always gonna be like, go for it.
00:13:01 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:13:01 [Speaker 2]
And and a lot of students say, is it okay if I x y z?
00:13:04 [Speaker 2]
And my answer is always like, I have no idea.
00:13:06 [Speaker 2]
Maybe.
00:13:07 [Speaker 2]
Like like, let's see what happens.
00:13:10 [Speaker 2]
And I think that when you're in and I and I could think about this when I was a student.
00:13:14 [Speaker 2]
Like, the stakes feel so high all the time.
00:13:18 [Speaker 2]
Like, project has to be amazing.
00:13:20 [Speaker 2]
And I know it's again, I recognize where I'm standing, you know, tenured and all this stuff, but, like, it just isn't that important project by project.
00:13:28 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:13:28 [Speaker 2]
Like, you bombing a project, you're not failing at life.
00:13:31 [Speaker 2]
You're not getting kicked out of school.
00:13:33 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:13:33 [Speaker 2]
It's one of a 100 projects you'll do in an edge in an undergrad education.
00:13:38 [Speaker 2]
But I think that the benefits of taking the risk are so much greater than the slight GPA hit, you know, slight bump of GPA you might get from an a versus a b.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
That, like, the benefits of trying something and and going forward even though the the fact that you have may or may not completely buy it.
00:13:58 [Speaker 2]
I have always been if a student sees interested, then I'm interested, basically.
00:14:02 [Speaker 2]
Like, I don't need to actually care about what they're doing, but I care that they care about what they're doing, and I will always support that.
00:14:08 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:14:09 [Speaker 2]
So that's me.
00:14:10 [Speaker 2]
That's one guy's opinion.
00:14:11 [Speaker 2]
Now having said that, certain faculty are like, this is how it's been done.
00:14:14 [Speaker 2]
This is how I learned, and this is how we do it.
00:14:17 [Speaker 2]
And I can understand where that comes from, but I strongly disagree with it.
00:14:21 [Speaker 2]
I I don't think that is a convivial and sort of forward looking way to to teach.
00:14:26 [Speaker 2]
I just I just I understand why people do it.
00:14:29 [Speaker 2]
It's a little easier.
00:14:30 [Speaker 2]
But I would always be excited if we'd say, I'm gonna, whatever, staple a ferret to a board and copy paste, you know, like some crazy shit and just be, like, fucking go for it.
00:14:38 [Speaker 2]
Let's see what happens.
00:14:40 [Speaker 2]
And if it sucks, I don't necessarily grade a bad outcome as as an f.
00:14:44 [Speaker 2]
Like, to me, that's almost an a.
00:14:46 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:14:46 [Speaker 1]
Like like,
00:14:46 [Speaker 2]
it is an a.
00:14:47 [Speaker 2]
Like, if you try something and it's ends up awful, but you went for it and you really tried and you really learned and you really cracked something open that maybe you couldn't execute, to me, that's an a.
00:14:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:14:58 [Speaker 2]
That's not a not a fail.
00:15:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:00 [Speaker 2]
And and I think that teachers believe that.
00:15:03 [Speaker 2]
I think that you guys don't believe that we believe them.
00:15:06 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:15:07 [Speaker 1]
Absolutely not.
00:15:08 [Speaker 2]
Maybe not you personally, but I think students don't believe that we want, you know, like, just see what happens.
00:15:13 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:15:14 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I don't know.
00:15:14 [Speaker 2]
I could be wrong.
00:15:16 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:15:16 [Speaker 1]
I think from from my, my education here, at least, I found that where I would come into classes and almost, like, feel this fear and, like, have be like, I have to do this perfect.
00:15:30 [Speaker 1]
I have to come in every single day with, like, a butt ton of work that I did, this other stuff.
00:15:35 [Speaker 1]
And, like, now that I'm a senior and even, like, in my junior year, I was like, oh, that's that's professor Fingold doesn't.
00:15:42 [Speaker 1]
He cares.
00:15:43 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:15:43 [Speaker 1]
He wants to see that I'm trying really hard, but he's not gonna get that upset at me.
00:15:48 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of students
00:15:49 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:15:49 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:50 [Speaker 1]
Have that innate reprehension.
00:15:53 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:15:54 [Speaker 2]
I think you guys are under I think that what what a lot of people I think you know this, but, like, a lot of faculty, I think, forget how much pressure you are under and how ridiculously come you do day to day is as a student.
00:16:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:08 [Speaker 2]
Like like, you're in whatever five classes, which means you've probably got, like, three studios going on at once, which means you have got three big projects for three different faculty all happening at the same time on top of your liberal arts classes, on top of your humanities classes, on top of, like, feeding yourself, cleaning yourself.
00:16:24 [Speaker 2]
You know, many of many student have a job, especially these days.
00:16:28 [Speaker 2]
So it's like, the pressure is absurd.
00:16:31 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:31 [Speaker 2]
It's it's an insane amount of pressure.
00:16:33 [Speaker 2]
I think it's I think it's more pressure as a student than when you graduate.
00:16:37 [Speaker 2]
I think you have to easier ways.
00:16:38 [Speaker 2]
And so I think that you all feel like, holy shit.
00:16:40 [Speaker 2]
There's better everything I do better be worth it.
00:16:42 [Speaker 2]
Like, I gotta make every moment count.
00:16:45 [Speaker 2]
And I think making it count is different than making it perfect.
00:16:48 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:16:48 [Speaker 2]
Like like, perfect isn't necessarily valuable.
00:16:53 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:53 [Speaker 2]
Again, there's some subtleties here, but I think generally speaking, it's like the learning is what matters.
00:16:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:59 [Speaker 1]
I think that sometimes it gets lost on students, especially when working on big projects that, like, we forget that we're learning.
00:17:07 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:17:08 [Speaker 1]
We've, like when we're in the mess of a project, I just had to do a, like, a vinyl recently.
00:17:14 [Speaker 1]
And I see it.
00:17:15 [Speaker 1]
I'm more like this is a class that have, like, first semester juniors in it.
00:17:19 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:17:20 [Speaker 1]
And I'm seeing my my my last year self in them.
00:17:24 [Speaker 1]
They're panicking because they don't know what to do, and they're not and they can't figure it out.
00:17:27 [Speaker 1]
And it's like, you're you're here as a class.
00:17:30 [Speaker 1]
This is a classroom.
00:17:32 [Speaker 1]
Like, you're supposed to be learning and making mistakes and things like that.
00:17:35 [Speaker 1]
And I think that's that holds a lot of students back because we're so focused on the out being this beautiful, perfect package thing.
00:17:45 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely true.
00:17:46 [Speaker 2]
And I do think, to be fair, that is your teacher's fault to some extent.
00:17:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:17:52 [Speaker 2]
To be fair, because I do think that we just sort of teachers have a tendency to translate commercial practice into education, and they're not the same thing and they're not the same goals.
00:18:03 [Speaker 2]
And so the idea that, like, I'm gonna run this class like a studio is, I think, kinda bullshit.
00:18:08 [Speaker 2]
It's it's unfair.
00:18:10 [Speaker 2]
The expectations are not the same.
00:18:11 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:12 [Speaker 2]
In a perk, you're getting paid.
00:18:13 [Speaker 2]
You have different timelines.
00:18:15 [Speaker 2]
You don't have five other clients necessarily at one time.
00:18:17 [Speaker 2]
You know, it's like the the parameters change a lot.
00:18:20 [Speaker 2]
And so I think that we think, well, yeah, obviously, they gotta make amazing stuff.
00:18:24 [Speaker 2]
And I'm like, maybe they make good stuff, but I more care that they make an amazing process or they make amazing choices.
00:18:32 [Speaker 2]
And if the stuff is good, that's also great.
00:18:34 [Speaker 2]
And there is absolutely value in finishing work and having it be beautiful and and and perfect and all that stuff.
00:18:40 [Speaker 2]
But, again, we're educating.
00:18:41 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:18:42 [Speaker 2]
We we are not perch come.
00:18:44 [Speaker 2]
Like, the like, it's not that relationship.
00:18:46 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:48 [Speaker 2]
So I do agree that that pressure is there, but I do think in some ways, it's kind of on the teachers to to alter that that that that culture a little bit.
00:18:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:58 [Speaker 2]
Again, we do wanna hold you to standards.
00:18:59 [Speaker 2]
We want you to make good work, but I do think that the emphasis on the process is important.
00:19:03 [Speaker 2]
And that's why, generally, I give, like, the final thing, like, 20% of the grade.
00:19:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:19:08 [Speaker 2]
So it's not nothing, but it's also not most of it either.
00:19:12 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:19:12 [Speaker 2]
You know, it's a it's a fifth of it or or a quarter of it or something like that.
00:19:16 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:19:16 [Speaker 2]
Having said that, I might be completely wrong.
00:19:18 [Speaker 2]
Like like, I have certainly screwed up shit up.
00:19:20 [Speaker 2]
So, like, it's possible.
00:19:21 [Speaker 2]
I don't know what I'm talking about.
00:19:23 [Speaker 2]
But but my experience has been when you cultivate a culture of of really experimenting and letting students go down roads that maybe don't work and and giving them not just like mouth service about, you know, try stuff, but, like, actually backing it up with, like, how you're evaluating.
00:19:39 [Speaker 2]
My experience is students get it.
00:19:40 [Speaker 2]
They don't maybe get it on day one, but they get it.
00:19:42 [Speaker 2]
They're like, oh, you know, Mitch isn't kidding.
00:19:44 [Speaker 2]
He really does want me to go for it.
00:19:45 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:19:46 [Speaker 2]
And so the work ends badly, but if the road to get to the bad end was good, I think that's good.
00:19:53 [Speaker 2]
Like, I think that's worth it.
00:19:54 [Speaker 1]
The it's the friends we make along the way kind of thing.
00:19:57 [Speaker 2]
It it really is.
00:19:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:19:58 [Speaker 2]
It's like the stuff you figured out by screwing up, I think is more valuable and more interesting than the stuff you figured out by not screwing up.
00:20:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:06 [Speaker 2]
Doesn't Doesn't mean you don't learn by not screwing up, but I think you learn more and the impact is greater when you thought something would do something and it kinda does it.
00:20:14 [Speaker 1]
I think I have learned more when I have
00:20:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:17 [Speaker 1]
Thoroughly ruined and messed up a project than I have ever Yeah.
00:20:21 [Speaker 1]
Perfectly executing a project.
00:20:23 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:20:23 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:20:24 [Speaker 1]
When it again, when it crashes and burns, you have to figure it out and use your brain more.
00:20:29 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:20:30 [Speaker 2]
And I also think that failure often results in going places you would never get to.
00:20:35 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:20:35 [Speaker 2]
And that's to me my my favorite my quote favorite part of failure is that it leads to other stuff.
00:20:42 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:20:43 [Speaker 2]
And and you would never get there because you would never have gone down this kind of relatively stupid road that got you to this weird place.
00:20:49 [Speaker 2]
And then you're like, oh, actually, yeah, that sucked.
00:20:51 [Speaker 2]
But this thing I figured out was really interesting, and so I think that's really valuable.
00:20:56 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:57 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:20:57 [Speaker 1]
I I definitely agree at least.
00:21:01 [Speaker 1]
I can say as a senior who's never taught Approved.
00:21:04 [Speaker 1]
Never taught adults before, only taught children in in There you go.
00:21:08 [Speaker 1]
Summer camp.
00:21:09 [Speaker 1]
It it yeah.
00:21:09 [Speaker 1]
I do think it is very similar, though, teaching children at summer camp and also teaching adults in college.
00:21:14 [Speaker 1]
I think it's more similar than we always think it is.
00:21:16 [Speaker 1]
Or we
00:21:16 [Speaker 2]
Oh, for sure.
00:21:18 [Speaker 1]
One thing I did wanna ask.
00:21:20 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:21:20 [Speaker 1]
I always ask this with when I get educators on is, like, what do you think, like, one of the most common misconceptions students have when they're entering, like, design school about
00:21:36 [Speaker 2]
I I mean, I've got probably a 100 answers to that.
00:21:38 [Speaker 2]
I think that they think there's a right way to do it.
00:21:40 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:41 [Speaker 2]
I think that they they they are sometimes sold by the school that there's, like, a solution Mhmm.
00:21:47 [Speaker 2]
That you have to learn how to do, and and I just don't buy that anymore.
00:21:53 [Speaker 2]
I think that the idea of, like, if I kinda get in and I, like, do it correctly and I make the teachers happy and I get a's, I'm gonna have a career is is complete, unfortunately.
00:22:05 [Speaker 2]
I think that and, you know, this college marketing doesn't want me to say this, but, like, you're not purchasing a career Mhmm.
00:22:13 [Speaker 2]
When you go to college.
00:22:14 [Speaker 2]
You're not.
00:22:14 [Speaker 2]
You're purchasing an opportunity to be educated.
00:22:17 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:22:17 [Speaker 2]
And within that opportunity often comes careers, but you're purchasing the chance to be educated.
00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
I don't even think you're purchasing the education.
00:22:25 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:22:26 [Speaker 2]
Because if that was true, you could just sign up, write a check, and you're good, and that's not how it works.
00:22:30 [Speaker 2]
You have to take it.
00:22:31 [Speaker 2]
You have to do it.
00:22:32 [Speaker 2]
And so I think you're purchasing the opportunity for the education.
00:22:34 [Speaker 2]
I think your perch work that you get out of a school, like like, all of the people you graduate with at your first professional network, and those people, you will hear their names for the rest of your life whether you want to or not.
00:22:43 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:22:44 [Speaker 2]
You're purchasing, like, facilities and sort of that kind of stuff.
00:22:46 [Speaker 2]
You know, those are things you're buying, but what you're not buying is a guaranteed job.
00:22:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:22:51 [Speaker 2]
And that's a hard sell, especially at private universities.
00:22:54 [Speaker 2]
You know, it's a hard sell.
00:22:56 [Speaker 2]
I think where I teach right now, if you don't get any scholarship, I think it's close to, like, $375 a year for an education.
00:23:02 [Speaker 2]
I mean, that's insane.
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
That's an absurd number.
00:23:06 [Speaker 2]
And so I get why you would think, well, what am I getting from this?
00:23:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:10 [Speaker 2]
And And you want a solid answer you want.
00:23:11 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna get exactly 17 offers when I graduate, and it just doesn't work like that.
00:23:15 [Speaker 2]
So I think that's the biggest myth is that, like, you come in there and you do what you're supposed to and you're good, and that's just not how this works.
00:23:23 [Speaker 2]
And I don't wanna disparage any other disciplines, but I understand in, like, math, there's right and wrong, or physics, you know.
00:23:29 [Speaker 2]
Art and design doesn't work like that.
00:23:30 [Speaker 2]
There's there's virtually zero fact.
00:23:33 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:33 [Speaker 2]
I mean, there's historical stuff, but every single quote rule can be the way that's useful.
00:23:39 [Speaker 2]
So it's almost like, why bother thinking that way?
00:23:42 [Speaker 2]
And so that's what's tough.
00:23:44 [Speaker 2]
And that's why I I get I feel I empathize a lot with the students because they are under a lot of pressure from both themselves and frequently their parents or whoever's cutting a check.
00:23:53 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:54 [Speaker 2]
And that's a hard place to be.
00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
You know, that's a very difficult existence to live, and I understand that very much.
00:23:59 [Speaker 2]
So I I I hope that students eventually understand, oh, that's not actually how this works.
00:24:06 [Speaker 2]
Like, I get it.
00:24:06 [Speaker 2]
It's It's it's a process and this and that.
00:24:08 [Speaker 2]
But I get real especially, I teach a lot of freshmen and they come in and they are so frightened of dropping the ball at anything.
00:24:14 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, you guys gotta understand.
00:24:15 [Speaker 2]
First of all, you have four years.
00:24:16 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:24:17 [Speaker 2]
Like, you got time.
00:24:18 [Speaker 2]
This is one little tiny project.
00:24:20 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's just not that important in the big picture.
00:24:22 [Speaker 2]
But again, it's easy to say that out loud in the hindsight of being in this for a long time.
00:24:27 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:24:27 [Speaker 2]
But when you're 18 and you're just, like, freaking out, you know, you're so frightened of everything.
00:24:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, I totally understand where it comes from.
00:24:33 [Speaker 2]
So I believe I mean, you have to ask my students.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
I believe I get rid of that myth pretty quickly, I I I think.
00:24:41 [Speaker 2]
So that's probably the biggest one.
00:24:42 [Speaker 2]
And and I think everything else is changing so quickly that any other myths are almost like what is what's a myth today can be completely rendered irrelevant next week depending on what happens.
00:24:52 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:24:52 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:24:52 [Speaker 2]
So sort of in this very we as you're well aware, a very strange time right now Mhmm.
00:24:57 [Speaker 2]
To say the least.
00:24:58 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, things are changing
00:25:00 [Speaker 1]
a lot.
00:25:00 [Speaker 1]
Strange strange is a is a kind word to use, I think.
00:25:03 [Speaker 2]
It strange.
00:25:04 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:04 [Speaker 2]
We'll use that word.
00:25:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:06 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:25:08 [Speaker 1]
I don't know if this is a true thing, like, up in the North of design.
00:25:13 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:25:14 [Speaker 1]
But in the South at least, a lot of my fellow peers and other designers I've talked to, a lot of, like, parents and other people see graphic design as an art degree, but you can get a job with it.
00:25:27 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:25:28 [Speaker 1]
Is that a true kind of sentiment?
00:25:31 [Speaker 1]
I think Up up, like, up there.
00:25:34 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:34 [Speaker 2]
I think that's a common sort of way to think about it.
00:25:36 [Speaker 2]
Because because, again, you gotta I always say this, like, most of the people most of your parents are not artists and designers.
00:25:43 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:25:44 [Speaker 2]
And they don't understand what we do.
00:25:45 [Speaker 2]
Like, they really don't.
00:25:46 [Speaker 2]
My dad, very intelligent guy.
00:25:48 [Speaker 2]
He doesn't get what I do for any I'm you know, he's known me for a long time.
00:25:52 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:25:52 [Speaker 2]
Like, he doesn't understand what I do.
00:25:54 [Speaker 2]
And I've tried to explain and and he's just like, oh, okay.
00:25:56 [Speaker 2]
That great.
00:25:57 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:25:58 [Speaker 2]
Like and so I think that there is saying that it's like an art degree you get a job with, it's like we understand what that means.
00:26:06 [Speaker 2]
You know what I'm saying?
00:26:07 [Speaker 2]
It's more it's less about sort of a judgment and more about a way to contextualize something that's ultimately a very complex and very ambiguous field.
00:26:15 [Speaker 2]
And that's part of why I find graphic design so interesting.
00:26:17 [Speaker 2]
Even though I do relatively little graphic design these days, I think it's still a fundamental part of how I look at the world.
00:26:23 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:26:24 [Speaker 2]
And and so I have always thought of design a viewpoint as much as anything else.
00:26:28 [Speaker 2]
It's sort of the way you perceive things because anything is graphic design.
00:26:33 [Speaker 2]
And, like, a five year old playing around in, like, Microsoft Paint or whatever fig you know, whatever a five year old would use to draw or whatever.
00:26:41 [Speaker 2]
And, like, Michael Beirut making $5,000,000 logos, those are both kind of the same discipline as a as as insane as that sounds, you know.
00:26:51 [Speaker 2]
Maybe maybe a little less.
00:26:52 [Speaker 2]
Maybe like a 15 year old doing, like, a flyer for their garage sale and, like, a real high end studio.
00:26:57 [Speaker 2]
It's still those are so how can both of those be true?
00:27:00 [Speaker 2]
And that's because the field is such a open hand you know, an open hug of just sort of taking things in and translating it.
00:27:07 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:08 [Speaker 2]
That I think to say, well, it's like an art to be in a job with.
00:27:10 [Speaker 2]
Like, I get that lot.
00:27:12 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's not entirely inaccurate.
00:27:14 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's not wrong exactly.
00:27:17 [Speaker 2]
I think it it's a bit reductive perhaps, but but that's not an I've heard that a million times, and it's fairly accurate in some ways.
00:27:26 [Speaker 1]
I think half of the students, at least in my cohort, that's how they got
00:27:30 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:31 [Speaker 1]
Was they wanted to get an art degree, but they were, like, pushed into that.
00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
But this is hireable.
00:27:36 [Speaker 2]
And I think what's cool about graphic design is there's infinite versions of it.
00:27:41 [Speaker 2]
Like, there's the version where you basically, like, just put text in InDesign all day.
00:27:45 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:45 [Speaker 1]
And
00:27:45 [Speaker 2]
it's very corporate and very structured, and that's fine.
00:27:47 [Speaker 2]
But then there's the version where you're essentially just freely expressing yourself, you know, with typography or whatever and for yourself.
00:27:53 [Speaker 2]
And those are also graphic design.
00:27:55 [Speaker 2]
So it's kinda does all the things.
00:27:57 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:27:58 [Speaker 2]
And that's why it's such an interesting field.
00:28:00 [Speaker 2]
It it's such a it's a field because it acts like the glue of culture.
00:28:04 [Speaker 2]
And I know that sounds very heady, but it's sort of like graphic design can touch anything.
00:28:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:28:08 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:28:09 [Speaker 2]
Literally anything has graphic design in it for the most part in, like, our built environment, so to speak.
00:28:14 [Speaker 1]
When my friends or family asked me about, like, what I wanna do if I don't wanna go into marketing, it's my personal thing.
00:28:20 [Speaker 1]
I don't wanna go into a corporate job.
00:28:22 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:28:22 [Speaker 2]
I think that's fine.
00:28:23 [Speaker 1]
They're like, what what what do you wanna do?
00:28:25 [Speaker 1]
What can you do?
00:28:26 [Speaker 1]
And it's like, I have to explain that there's, like, a thousand different things because Yeah.
00:28:31 [Speaker 1]
Everywhere you look, I and and has design in it.
00:28:35 [Speaker 1]
And sometimes it's hard to almost wrap your head around.
00:28:38 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:28:39 [Speaker 1]
I think
00:28:40 [Speaker 2]
Possibilities are infinite.
00:28:41 [Speaker 2]
There's infinite versions of this job, and that's awesome and frightening.
00:28:46 [Speaker 1]
I work with, children, a, like Yep.
00:28:48 [Speaker 1]
Elementary school children over the summer, teaching and, like, helping actual teachers teach them.
00:28:54 [Speaker 1]
And I think the one of the funniest things is trying to explain what graphic design is to children who don't even know what, like, art really is.
00:29:03 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:29:04 [Speaker 1]
The like, because it ends up either being I'm like, do you do you go to the grocery store with your mom?
00:29:10 [Speaker 1]
Do you see all those products?
00:29:11 [Speaker 1]
Someone had to do that.
00:29:13 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:29:13 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:29:14 [Speaker 1]
What?
00:29:14 [Speaker 1]
They've never even they've never even thought about that before in their little lives.
00:29:19 [Speaker 2]
I I think when they realize that, like, a tie you know, the choice of font is like a decision.
00:29:24 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:29:24 [Speaker 2]
Like, somebody chose that.
00:29:26 [Speaker 2]
You're like, woah.
00:29:27 [Speaker 2]
Wait a minute.
00:29:28 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:28 [Speaker 1]
Like Yeah.
00:29:29 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:29 [Speaker 2]
I know.
00:29:30 [Speaker 1]
I I showed I showed a a very sweet seven year old, an album cover that I did on Spotify on my phone and, like, show them.
00:29:37 [Speaker 2]
And she
00:29:38 [Speaker 1]
was like, what?
00:29:39 [Speaker 1]
You made that?
00:29:40 [Speaker 1]
It doesn't make any sense how to get on there.
00:29:44 [Speaker 2]
That's awesome.
00:29:44 [Speaker 1]
And I kinda It's
00:29:45 [Speaker 2]
gotta be amazing, though.
00:29:46 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:29:47 [Speaker 1]
Oh, it it feels awesome.
00:29:48 [Speaker 1]
They think I'm the coolest, and then and then it makes me feel good.
00:29:52 [Speaker 1]
And my main thing is when I'm talking to, freshmen or even, like, younger students, like, I know any more than them.
00:29:59 [Speaker 1]
I'm like, have have we forgotten that there's fun to be involved?
00:30:03 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:30:03 [Speaker 1]
And we can You're
00:30:04 [Speaker 2]
allowed to have fun too.
00:30:05 [Speaker 1]
And we can be excited that we're doing something really Yep.
00:30:08 [Speaker 1]
Believe it or not.
00:30:09 [Speaker 2]
I guess true.
00:30:10 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:10 [Speaker 1]
That's my thing for students.
00:30:11 [Speaker 1]
Because I think more students should have more fun when they're designing.
00:30:16 [Speaker 1]
Because I think my work is better when I have fun.
00:30:19 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:30:19 [Speaker 2]
I think it's always obvious to me when I look at portfolios what the person cared about and what the person didn't care about and whether they did because they felt like they were supposed to do this.
00:30:28 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:28 [Speaker 2]
And I think fun really comes through.
00:30:29 [Speaker 2]
I think you can feel it.
00:30:30 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:31 [Speaker 2]
And that doesn't mean the work has to be silly or lighthearted.
00:30:33 [Speaker 2]
It can be serious work, but you can feel the, it's almost like I mean, fun is an easy, we'll say, investment in a way.
00:30:40 [Speaker 2]
Like, you're in it.
00:30:41 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:42 [Speaker 2]
It's not just like this thing you're doing sort of over there because you're supposed
00:30:44 [Speaker 1]
to be a part of it.
00:30:45 [Speaker 1]
Kids say, you're locked in.
00:30:47 [Speaker 2]
You're locked in.
00:30:48 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:48 [Speaker 2]
You're getting after it.
00:30:49 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:50 [Speaker 2]
I was told is the way the kids talk these days.
00:30:52 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:53 [Speaker 1]
I I cannot imagine working in the education field for so long and hearing how many different things we come up with.
00:30:59 [Speaker 2]
I, like, intentionally mess with my students, and I constantly say stuff like that's really brat just to just to screw them, and they get super irritated.
00:31:06 [Speaker 2]
They think I'm serious.
00:31:07 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, dude, I know I'm you may I'm making fun of you right now.
00:31:10 [Speaker 2]
Like, you under you know?
00:31:11 [Speaker 2]
And they I think I've gotten complaints on my evals that they're like, Mitch tries to say all this hip lingo, and it's, like, really awkward.
00:31:17 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, yes.
00:31:18 [Speaker 2]
That's It's
00:31:18 [Speaker 1]
like the point.
00:31:20 [Speaker 1]
Your logo is and so It's super brat.
00:31:22 [Speaker 1]
It serves, guys.
00:31:24 [Speaker 2]
I think I said it was it was full of Riz.
00:31:27 [Speaker 2]
And one of the students was like, dude, stop.
00:31:29 [Speaker 2]
It's just I amuse myself sometimes.
00:31:32 [Speaker 1]
See, that's the exact same as teaching children when you mess with the PSA slang because they think that I'm elderly.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
You're super old.
00:31:40 [Speaker 1]
When I'm when I'm saying, like, words like riz and chopped, they're like, you can't say that.
00:31:49 [Speaker 2]
Oh, that's amazing.
00:31:50 [Speaker 1]
As if I'm not on the same Internet as them.
00:31:53 [Speaker 1]
They don't understand that I was there when those things were performed or found out.
00:31:57 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:31:58 [Speaker 2]
You were there at the start.
00:31:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:59 [Speaker 1]
It is it is a genuine joy working with children.
00:32:02 [Speaker 1]
That's my so I I take away from that.
00:32:04 [Speaker 2]
I I more power to you.
00:32:05 [Speaker 2]
I could not handle it.
00:32:07 [Speaker 2]
Anything below college level, I'm out.
00:32:09 [Speaker 2]
Like, I can't do it.
00:32:10 [Speaker 1]
I can only handle it in the summers and in short bursts.
00:32:13 [Speaker 1]
I do not wanna go into it full time, but I do enjoy it.
00:32:17 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:32:17 [Speaker 1]
And, also, I like it at summer camp because I can mess with them more.
00:32:22 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:32:22 [Speaker 1]
And also do things that I
00:32:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:24 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:32:24 [Speaker 1]
Like this summer, I taught them how to cyanotype.
00:32:27 [Speaker 2]
Oh, that's amazing.
00:32:28 [Speaker 1]
And I got I got them invested because I told them we're using the power of the sun.
00:32:33 [Speaker 2]
That's awesome.
00:32:34 [Speaker 2]
That's a great way to sell it.
00:32:35 [Speaker 2]
I love that.
00:32:36 [Speaker 2]
That's amazing.
00:32:37 [Speaker 1]
I said we're using science, and we're using the power of the sun to make art.
00:32:42 [Speaker 1]
And they thought that was the coolest thing ever.
00:32:43 [Speaker 2]
And they thought that's the coolest thing ever.
00:32:45 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:32:45 [Speaker 1]
You know what?
00:32:46 [Speaker 1]
When I do cyanotypes, because that's one of my favorite things to do, I think about that.
00:32:50 [Speaker 1]
And I'm like, this is cool.
00:32:51 [Speaker 1]
I am using the power of the sun and science to make art.
00:32:55 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:55 [Speaker 2]
And that's the that way of generating form that can feed all sorts of stuff.
00:32:59 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't have to just be a cyanotype.
00:33:01 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:33:01 [Speaker 2]
You you make these things, and they're yours.
00:33:04 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:33:04 [Speaker 2]
So you can do whatever you want with them.
00:33:05 [Speaker 2]
You can turn them into a poster.
00:33:06 [Speaker 2]
You can turn them into a brand.
00:33:07 [Speaker 2]
I mean, anything goes.
00:33:09 [Speaker 1]
The world is your oyster.
00:33:11 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:33:12 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:33:12 [Speaker 2]
It's amazing.
00:33:13 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:33:14 [Speaker 1]
I know we talked about process a lot.
00:33:16 [Speaker 1]
Other the entire thing is about process.
00:33:17 [Speaker 1]
What do you think the most important thing you want students to take away or understand about the process?
00:33:26 [Speaker 2]
I think that it's ever fit you never figure it out that that you you can you can how do I say this intelligently?
00:33:34 [Speaker 2]
You can get to places where you feel like, okay.
00:33:36 [Speaker 2]
I got this dialed in.
00:33:38 [Speaker 2]
Like, I understand if I do this, this, and this, and maybe those this, this, and this are physical things or digital things or whatever that you've got it dialed in.
00:33:44 [Speaker 2]
But I kind of think we call it a creative practice because you keep practicing.
00:33:49 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:33:50 [Speaker 2]
You never finish.
00:33:51 [Speaker 2]
You're never done.
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
And so I I kind of love the idea that, like, you can figure something out and then you can throw the week
00:33:58 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:59 [Speaker 2]
And figure it out another way.
00:34:01 [Speaker 2]
And so it's kind of this infinite kind of, search almost.
00:34:04 [Speaker 2]
It's like a quest.
00:34:06 [Speaker 2]
And that I love that.
00:34:07 [Speaker 2]
Like, I love that idea.
00:34:08 [Speaker 2]
Like, I have things that I know how to do.
00:34:10 [Speaker 2]
I I like I said earlier, I I I did a, a lot of photograms for a long time, which I think you probably know what that is, but a lot of people, you know, they're basically it's camera less stuff in a dark room.
00:34:19 [Speaker 2]
You put things on the paper, you flash a light, it exposes it.
00:34:22 [Speaker 2]
It's just this really cool technique.
00:34:23 [Speaker 1]
I did my first one this semester.
00:34:26 [Speaker 2]
There you go.
00:34:26 [Speaker 2]
It's like an awesome technique, and I did that.
00:34:28 [Speaker 2]
Like, I probably have I'm like, looking around my office.
00:34:31 [Speaker 2]
I probably got, like, 5,000 photographs in this office right now in boxes.
00:34:36 [Speaker 2]
And it's a super cool process.
00:34:37 [Speaker 2]
And it was really fun.
00:34:38 [Speaker 2]
And I have a lot of work I really love.
00:34:39 [Speaker 2]
And then I kinda got over it.
00:34:41 [Speaker 2]
And and doesn't mean it not it's not good or interesting.
00:34:44 [Speaker 2]
Just the process sort of exhausted itself for me.
00:34:46 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:47 [Speaker 2]
But the way the process works where it's very intuitive and it's very quick and fast and it happens in a minute, you know, you can't spend six hours on a photogram.
00:34:56 [Speaker 2]
It happens in three minutes.
00:34:57 [Speaker 2]
You know, I really love that.
00:34:59 [Speaker 2]
And that I keep moving forward with that.
00:35:02 [Speaker 2]
I I hope students take pieces of process and then put that into new processes.
00:35:08 [Speaker 2]
You know, they they can sort of steal from not steal from themselves.
00:35:11 [Speaker 2]
So they can sort of liberate from themselves parts that are interesting and smash stuff together.
00:35:15 [Speaker 2]
And I think those intersections are for me where stuff gets really interesting is when things that don't go together go together.
00:35:21 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:35:21 [Speaker 2]
They're forced together.
00:35:22 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:35:23 [Speaker 2]
So that's kinda my my hope that, like, they don't just go, I got it, and I'm done.
00:35:28 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:35:29 [Speaker 2]
You can do that, and that's okay.
00:35:31 [Speaker 2]
And I think that, you know, artists and designers, like, jobs where you basically work forty hours a week and then spend the rest of time with your family and friends, that's a great job.
00:35:39 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't have to change the world every day.
00:35:40 [Speaker 2]
You don't have to do a hundred hour weeks to feel like this is worth it.
00:35:43 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:35:44 [Speaker 2]
But if that is the way you wanna go and you do wanna keep experimenting and keep changing, then that's part of what it's about.
00:35:50 [Speaker 2]
It's, like, really taking these these things you've figured out and sort of mushing them into other stuff and seeing what that does.
00:35:57 [Speaker 2]
And who knows what it'll do.
00:35:58 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:35:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:59 [Speaker 2]
That's where it gets cool.
00:36:01 [Speaker 1]
We've talked a little bit about, like, the material materials used.
00:36:04 [Speaker 1]
Obviously, photograms are very they're they're physical, you know, physical media.
00:36:09 [Speaker 1]
They're they're in your hand.
00:36:10 [Speaker 1]
They have to be.
00:36:10 [Speaker 1]
You put them through all these chemicals and stuff like that.
00:36:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:36:13 [Speaker 1]
I'm sorry.
00:36:14 [Speaker 1]
I just did that.
00:36:15 [Speaker 1]
I just started doing the dark room this semester, and I'm, like, falling in love with it right now.
00:36:19 [Speaker 1]
So that was I was kind of, like, very excited you mentioned photograms because I was like, oh my god.
00:36:24 [Speaker 1]
I'm doing that right now.
00:36:25 [Speaker 2]
It's so cool.
00:36:26 [Speaker 2]
I I love it.
00:36:27 [Speaker 2]
It's so much fun.
00:36:28 [Speaker 2]
I love how instant it is.
00:36:30 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't take six weeks.
00:36:31 [Speaker 2]
It's like you do it and you go.
00:36:32 [Speaker 1]
Do it and it's done.
00:36:33 [Speaker 1]
And I get to I get to do, like, cool chemical process, and it's awesome.
00:36:36 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:36:37 [Speaker 1]
And if you have a dark room, you should if you have access to a dark room, you should
00:36:40 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:36:40 [Speaker 1]
Do it.
00:36:41 [Speaker 2]
You should try it.
00:36:42 [Speaker 2]
Definitely.
00:36:43 [Speaker 1]
Are there particular materials that you return to often, digital or analog?
00:36:51 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:36:51 [Speaker 2]
I love cardboard, like, corrugated cardboard.
00:36:54 [Speaker 2]
I I use a lot of corrugated cardboard in my work the past, like, two or three years.
00:36:59 [Speaker 2]
I don't know why.
00:37:00 [Speaker 2]
Like, don't ask me to explain it.
00:37:01 [Speaker 2]
I don't something about it.
00:37:03 [Speaker 2]
It's so oh, man.
00:37:06 [Speaker 2]
I don't know what it is.
00:37:06 [Speaker 2]
It's so sort of plentiful and cheap and almost free for a lot of cases.
00:37:10 [Speaker 2]
You know, you can find it all over the place, but it has sort of a structure to it, which is interesting.
00:37:14 [Speaker 2]
It has, like, a form to it that is interesting.
00:37:17 [Speaker 2]
I like that it can it can be stiff.
00:37:19 [Speaker 2]
It can be flexible.
00:37:20 [Speaker 2]
You can do stuff with it.
00:37:21 [Speaker 2]
So I really enjoy cardboard.
00:37:23 [Speaker 2]
I really tend to not be I'm not a Luddite.
00:37:26 [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm not afraid of digital stuff, but but I just find people are gonna be irritated by this.
00:37:32 [Speaker 2]
I just don't find digital space that interesting.
00:37:35 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:37:36 [Speaker 2]
I'm not dissing it.
00:37:37 [Speaker 2]
I'm not saying if you just work digitally, you're an idiot.
00:37:38 [Speaker 2]
I'm not saying that.
00:37:39 [Speaker 2]
I just personally don't care that much.
00:37:42 [Speaker 2]
I having said that I do have a three d printer now, which is a pretty cool tool.
00:37:46 [Speaker 2]
And so I'm learning some modeling and stuff, which is really useful, you know, but it's kinda still analog.
00:37:50 [Speaker 2]
It's kinda like digital analog.
00:37:52 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:37:53 [Speaker 2]
So I really like stuff like that.
00:37:54 [Speaker 2]
And again, with the furniture degree, you know, I'm finding sort of wood and what wood can and can't do.
00:38:01 [Speaker 2]
And and what I like about wood is wood is gonna do what it wants to do.
00:38:05 [Speaker 2]
And and at some time, you're sort of a steward of the material.
00:38:08 [Speaker 2]
Like, material is gonna do what it wants, and you can try to make wood do stuff.
00:38:11 [Speaker 2]
But if it's not gonna do it, it's not gonna do it.
00:38:14 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:38:14 [Speaker 2]
Whereas pixels, you can sort of infinitely push around Mhmm.
00:38:17 [Speaker 2]
And and they're infinitely malleable.
00:38:20 [Speaker 2]
So I find material I really like working with limitations and edges on things.
00:38:25 [Speaker 2]
And so I find materials that make me have limits, you know, that force me to have an edge are really good for me.
00:38:32 [Speaker 2]
I'm really bad with, like, here's the world, anything goes.
00:38:35 [Speaker 2]
I'm horrible with that.
00:38:36 [Speaker 2]
I can't handle that.
00:38:37 [Speaker 2]
But, like, this material is gonna do x and y, but it's not gonna do these other things.
00:38:41 [Speaker 2]
What can you do within those boundaries?
00:38:43 [Speaker 2]
I really like stuff like that.
00:38:45 [Speaker 2]
So any materials like that.
00:38:46 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:38:46 [Speaker 2]
I I find materials like that just generally pretty exciting and pretty interesting.
00:38:50 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:38:50 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned something like liking the best of material.
00:38:53 [Speaker 1]
And I also prefer, like, physical processes.
00:38:56 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:38:56 [Speaker 1]
Processes.
00:38:58 [Speaker 1]
I don't know which ones Yeah.
00:38:58 [Speaker 2]
I don't
00:38:59 [Speaker 1]
know which one's the right word.
00:39:00 [Speaker 1]
Either way.
00:39:00 [Speaker 1]
Either way.
00:39:01 [Speaker 1]
But I think oftentimes and I will I'm kind of going back to, like, students as what I've seen as well with my peers.
00:39:08 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:39:09 [Speaker 1]
Is that when we're working digitally, it's almost like there's because there's so much option and choice, it almost, like, paralyzes you.
00:39:18 [Speaker 1]
You don't know what to do.
00:39:20 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:39:20 [Speaker 1]
It's like the screen screen.
00:39:21 [Speaker 1]
And I can do anything I want, but, like, much to do.
00:39:26 [Speaker 2]
So it's funny.
00:39:27 [Speaker 2]
It's yes.
00:39:28 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:39:28 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:39:29 [Speaker 2]
But, also, at the same time as that, you're also being mediated through the designers of the software Mhmm.
00:39:37 [Speaker 2]
And and through you know, if you think about social, through the algorithms and stuff.
00:39:40 [Speaker 2]
And so it's like, it's sort of unlimitedly anything, but then you're also being sort of shoved into, like, grooves that the sort of people who design the software want you to take.
00:39:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:51 [Speaker 2]
You know, in Photoshop, you can hypothetically do anything, but there's certain things that are just, like, knives easier.
00:39:57 [Speaker 2]
Because Photoshop wants you to sort of behave a certain way.
00:40:00 [Speaker 2]
And so you're absolutely right.
00:40:01 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's both things.
00:40:02 [Speaker 2]
And that's where it irritates me.
00:40:04 [Speaker 2]
It's like, wood is very I mean, wood, cardboard, paint, they're very truthful.
00:40:10 [Speaker 2]
They can't lie to you.
00:40:10 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:11 [Speaker 2]
Whereas I feel like software can lie to you.
00:40:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:13 [Speaker 2]
And it can give you this sort of illusion of control or an illusion of op of options.
00:40:18 [Speaker 2]
But at the end of the day, there are certain clicks it wants you to click into.
00:40:22 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:22 [Speaker 2]
And that tends to limit you.
00:40:24 [Speaker 2]
And that's why I find not always, certainly, and people tend that.
00:40:27 [Speaker 2]
But often, especially with younger designers, their work looks like x software.
00:40:34 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:34 [Speaker 1]
Oh,
00:40:34 [Speaker 2]
that looks like Figma.
00:40:35 [Speaker 2]
You did that in Figma.
00:40:37 [Speaker 2]
And I think that that's that's problematic.
00:40:40 [Speaker 2]
Doesn't mean it's not powerful.
00:40:41 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't mean you can't move forward from that, but it's so easy to kind of click into a groove that people go, oh, well, that's easier.
00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
Like, if I just do it like this, it just kinda has it has a filter, and it's boom done.
00:40:51 [Speaker 2]
And it's just, like, I don't think you're getting as much out of it as you can.
00:40:55 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:40:57 [Speaker 1]
I've I recently dicked based on, like, scanning and doing all that stuff.
00:41:01 [Speaker 1]
I wanted to do it physically, And it made me realize how almost I'm calling my past self stupid as, like, a as a term of endearment.
00:41:09 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:41:10 [Speaker 1]
Sure.
00:41:10 [Speaker 1]
As, like, me googling texture scans, scan textures, and then putting that in Photoshop, and then just realizing I could just do it.
00:41:19 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:41:19 [Speaker 1]
But, like, that wasn't even a thought to me because I was working in Photoshop.
00:41:23 [Speaker 1]
I was working in Photoshop, and what you do in Photoshop is you find textures and you put them on top of your thing.
00:41:27 [Speaker 1]
And
00:41:27 [Speaker 2]
you put them in.
00:41:28 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:28 [Speaker 2]
And and it's sort of about, like, the office of the software.
00:41:31 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:41:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, the software wants you to do that.
00:41:33 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:41:33 [Speaker 2]
It's more friction to go find a piece of burlap and scan it in or blah blah blah blah blah versus search for burlap texture.
00:41:40 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:41:41 [Speaker 2]
And that's what I'm talking about.
00:41:42 [Speaker 2]
It's it's not that you're incapable of moving past that.
00:41:46 [Speaker 2]
It's just a lot more effort.
00:41:47 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:41:48 [Speaker 2]
It's much harder.
00:41:49 [Speaker 2]
And when you have 75,000 other things to worry about, sometimes easier is just easier.
00:41:55 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:41:55 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:41:56 [Speaker 2]
And that's where I get tense.
00:41:57 [Speaker 2]
I remember I was I can't remember.
00:42:00 [Speaker 2]
I don't quite remember the exact context.
00:42:01 [Speaker 2]
I think when I was in school in undergrad, somebody was looking for like a coffee cup ring, you know, like on a Mhmm.
00:42:06 [Speaker 2]
Table cloth like the ring.
00:42:07 [Speaker 2]
And they were looking at Photoshop, looking at like filters and how to like render a certain and I'm like, go get a cup of coffee
00:42:14 [Speaker 1]
and
00:42:15 [Speaker 2]
put it on the tablecloth and scan, you know.
00:42:17 [Speaker 2]
I was like what's wrong with you and not that I was brilliant by any stretch but I just, kind of, saw that other road and they're like oh right.
00:42:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:23 [Speaker 2]
So that's, kind of, where I get like a little, I'm like, just just, you know, be aware of what the tools are limiting you, you know, how they're making you think.
00:42:31 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:42:32 [Speaker 1]
That's a big thing holding back a lot of people.
00:42:34 [Speaker 1]
Like, because we're so digital, we feel like we have to stay in that space.
00:42:39 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:42:40 [Speaker 1]
But a lot of the work we look up to isn't in the digital space.
00:42:46 [Speaker 1]
And it's like I I feel like it's hard for at least probably my generation because we were so raised had Internet basically my entire life.
00:42:54 [Speaker 1]
We're so ingrained in seeing all this digital stuff and all these tools that are new and they're cool and learning how to use Photoshop and all this other stuff that we forget that, like, things their still design can be done in those space that we are in physically.
00:43:08 [Speaker 2]
It still exists.
00:43:09 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:09 [Speaker 2]
It's it's still a it it can be a physical medium
00:43:13 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:43:13 [Speaker 2]
If you if you choose to let it be.
00:43:15 [Speaker 2]
And that's where it's hard.
00:43:16 [Speaker 2]
And I think it also gets hard in terms of expectations of commercial practice too.
00:43:19 [Speaker 2]
Because if you're, you know, at some big studio and they're like, this thing is due, you know, the client wants mock ups in three days, you're not gonna be like, I'm gonna go scan some, you know Mhmm.
00:43:28 [Speaker 2]
That might not necessarily be reality.
00:43:30 [Speaker 2]
So, again, it all depends on where you're at and what you're sort of trying to accomplish and where you're at in your career and what the clients want.
00:43:37 [Speaker 2]
So it it's always easy to generalize.
00:43:39 [Speaker 2]
But but, again, it's, like, so open, and there's so many roads to do this and that it's hard to make blanket statements about really anything.
00:43:48 [Speaker 1]
So I kind of wanna talk about a little bit of the influences that inspired you.
00:43:54 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:43:54 [Speaker 1]
Because I feel like a lot of the times, younger designers forget that older designers get inspired the same way we are inspired.
00:44:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:44:01 [Speaker 1]
I think we think that they're so smart.
00:44:04 [Speaker 1]
They just can come up with things.
00:44:06 [Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.
00:44:06 [Speaker 2]
Definitely not.
00:44:09 [Speaker 1]
Is there, like, a specific moment in your career that you, like, still look back on as, like, a, oh, like, this is a very cool person.
00:44:17 [Speaker 1]
This is a very cool style.
00:44:18 [Speaker 2]
So when I was in undergrad at RISD, I was a let me think here.
00:44:24 [Speaker 2]
I think a sophomore.
00:44:26 [Speaker 2]
It wasn't my freshman year.
00:44:26 [Speaker 2]
I think it was, like, sophomore or junior year.
00:44:29 [Speaker 2]
I took a class, with this guy, Franz Werner, And it was an elective class that I got because I was a little older.
00:44:35 [Speaker 2]
They let me do some more grad classes than most undergrads would get to do because I was, like, in my thirties when I was there.
00:44:41 [Speaker 2]
And this class was called photo graphics, like p h o t o slash graphics.
00:44:46 [Speaker 1]
It
00:44:46 [Speaker 2]
was this elective.
00:44:47 [Speaker 2]
And basically, what the class was about using the camera not to take pictures of stuff, but to take pictures of, like, graphic design elements, like fonts and backgrounds and things, and to sort of generate imagery that way.
00:45:00 [Speaker 2]
So instead of, like, laying out type in InDesign, you would physically cut type out of something and, like, put it on a scene and then, like, take a picture of it and then put that into InDesign.
00:45:11 [Speaker 2]
And that melted my face off when I saw I was like, holy fuck.
00:45:14 [Speaker 2]
What are you talking about?
00:45:15 [Speaker 2]
Like, I took me I was like, you can take pictures of text?
00:45:18 [Speaker 2]
Like, I couldn't even believe it.
00:45:19 [Speaker 2]
So that was a huge minute.
00:45:21 [Speaker 2]
That was a really, really big one.
00:45:24 [Speaker 2]
Another really big one was, I was really lucky to have, Nancy Skolos and Tom Waddell who are long time teachers at RISD as well.
00:45:33 [Speaker 2]
They've become friends and mentors of mine.
00:45:34 [Speaker 2]
I've been very lucky to know them for a long time.
00:45:36 [Speaker 2]
And their process is so interesting.
00:45:38 [Speaker 2]
It's sort of a combination of that kind of photography stuff with really experimental typography and form and just watching them work.
00:45:46 [Speaker 2]
And they would do a lot of stuff where they would just collage.
00:45:48 [Speaker 2]
And I just mean just they would just collage.
00:45:50 [Speaker 2]
It was like Tuesday night or watching the office collaging because it's like, why not?
00:45:55 [Speaker 2]
And these collages, they would just make just to kind of keep like some people knit, they would collage And they would just make these things that would then turn into these incredible posters and these incredible books and things.
00:46:05 [Speaker 2]
And it just was like, holy shit.
00:46:08 [Speaker 2]
And that's really where I learned from them more than anything that you can make and then get an idea Mhmm.
00:46:14 [Speaker 2]
Versus getting an idea and then make.
00:46:16 [Speaker 2]
And so that was a really big deal for me when I understood that you can just do stuff and then see where it takes you versus knowing where you're gonna end driving to the end.
00:46:25 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:46:26 [Speaker 2]
So that was huge for me.
00:46:28 [Speaker 2]
And then the other really big moment for me was also at RISD.
00:46:31 [Speaker 2]
A lot of things happened to me at RISD.
00:46:33 [Speaker 2]
Was my graphic design senior, we called it capstone or we called it degree project, like the capstone, the final site senior project.
00:46:39 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:46:40 [Speaker 2]
My advisor, this guy, Matt Monk, who I still am in touch with, Matt was, like, oh, you should watch this movie.
00:46:47 [Speaker 2]
This is, like, like, a month into it.
00:46:49 [Speaker 2]
He's, like, you should just see this movie.
00:46:50 [Speaker 2]
And this movie was called The Five Obstructions.
00:46:52 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:46:53 [Speaker 2]
Which is a film that is all about working with limitation, how to be creative with it.
00:46:57 [Speaker 2]
And it is, like, the most pretentious ninety minutes of my life.
00:47:01 [Speaker 2]
It's the most absurd, pretentious movie.
00:47:03 [Speaker 2]
But I gotta tell you, it altered my understanding of what making is.
00:47:07 [Speaker 2]
It completely changed how I think about doing stuff.
00:47:10 [Speaker 2]
And and it's something I have frequently make my students watch.
00:47:13 [Speaker 2]
I often do a project based on obstructions where they literally pick stuff out of a hat, and it's these asinine things.
00:47:19 [Speaker 2]
It has to be orange.
00:47:20 [Speaker 2]
Use your feet.
00:47:21 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:47:21 [Speaker 2]
It's like whatever, and they just have to make shit, and it was, like, transcendent moment.
00:47:26 [Speaker 2]
So I think those three people and those three moments really, even today, easily are are the bulk of how I approach making fun.
00:47:35 [Speaker 2]
And so I agree with you.
00:47:36 [Speaker 2]
It's like like, I think we all translate stuff and make new ideas in some ways, but it's not coming from nothing.
00:47:43 [Speaker 2]
It's not out of nowhere.
00:47:44 [Speaker 2]
And so, yeah, my influences are are incredibly important.
00:47:48 [Speaker 2]
I think their influences were incredibly important to them.
00:47:50 [Speaker 2]
And I because I'm so friendly with Nancy and Tom, I sort of know some of their people, and so I can look at what they did.
00:47:55 [Speaker 2]
And it's just it's amazing, you know.
00:47:57 [Speaker 2]
And one of my favorite things students is when they come back to me like three years later and go, yeah, I really didn't like your class but now I get it.
00:48:05 [Speaker 2]
And I'm like, thank you.
00:48:07 [Speaker 2]
Like, I will take that.
00:48:08 [Speaker 2]
That is good news.
00:48:12 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:48:13 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Type Spinks.
00:48:15 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had a good time because I sure did.
00:48:17 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:48:20 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:48:20 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:48:22 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:48:27 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typespeakspod.
00:48:29 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:48:32 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:48:33 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.