Moves Leaders Make - Season 1, Episode 6: Leading Through Relationships and Conversation

In this episode of Moves Leaders Make, hosts Penny Kittle and Elaine Millen talk with Jaren Vetter, a school leader whose work centers on relationships, intentional time, and the power of conversation. From leading a small rural K–8 school to stepping into a larger high school principalship, Jaren shares how conferring with staff became the anchor of his leadership. Together, they explore how prioritizing people over paperwork, making space for vulnerability, and addressing conflict head-on can transform school culture. This conversation is a powerful reminder that leadership is relational work — and small intentional moves create lasting change.

GUEST
Jaren Vetter — High School Principal in Saskatchewan, Canada.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Why learning every student’s name is a foundational leadership move.
• Prioritizing people over paperwork in the daily work of leadership.
• How intentional conferring builds trust and strengthens school culture.
• Structuring time to protect relationship-building in busy leadership roles.
• Leveraging peer support and teacher leadership within a building.
• Addressing conflict through honest, face-to-face conversation.
• Why leaders must model the relational practices they hope to see in classrooms.

BOOKS & REFERENCES
• Revenge of the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell
• When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi
• The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel
• Same As Ever by Morgan Housel
• What Great Principals Do Differently by Todd Whitaker

Moves Leaders Make — A Book Love Foundation Podcast; Hosted by Penny Kittle and Elaine Millen; Produced by Testwood Creative Studio; Music by ryanancona, licensed from Pond5; Learn more at booklovefoundation.org

★ Support this podcast ★

Creators and Guests

Host

Penny Kittle

Penny is Chairman of the Book Love Foundation and is dedicated to helping students and teachers develop a passion for reading and writing. She has taught English and coached literacy in public schools for 34 years.

Guest

Jaren Vetter

A High School Principal in Saskatchewan, Canada.

What is The Book Love Foundation Podcast?

Celebrate the joy of reading with the Book Love Foundation podcast. This is a show filled with information and inspiration from teachers and leaders across grade levels, states, and school systems. We interviewed authors and educators for the first five years and now turn our attention to leaders in public, private, and charter schools. Find out more at booklovefoundation.org or join our book-love-community.mn.co of 2500 educators from 28 countries. We sustain joy together, one kid and one book at a time.

00:00:06:02 - 00:00:26:02
Penny
You are going to love this episode of Moves Leaders Make a Book Love podcast series for educators shaping change. We're grateful to donors like you who have generously contributed to the Book Club Foundation and made this series possible. Visit Book Club foundation.org to learn more.

00:00:26:04 - 00:00:37:23
Penny
When we first conceived of Moves Leaders Make, I thought so much about the big move that a teacher can make from teaching to administration to some kind of leadership role.

00:00:37:23 - 00:01:02:17
Penny
And Jaren was a teacher when I met him and had visited my classroom and sat in my classroom, I got to see his interactions with kids and wow, just absolutely inspired by him. So when I found out he was going into leadership in this little K-8 community of 200 kids, a small staff, I was like, wow, we can learn a lot because Saskatchewan is not New Hampshire.

00:01:02:22 - 00:01:15:21
Penny
So not only are we learning lessons about how leadership in schools work in other places, but now as we bring Jaren on, he's actually changed roles again. So welcome Jaren. Good morning.

00:01:15:21 - 00:01:19:10
Jaren
Thanks for having me. Good morning, Elaine.

00:01:19:12 - 00:01:24:06
Penny
Jaren Vetter, can you give us a little information about what you're doing? Sure.

00:01:24:06 - 00:01:45:23
Jaren
So I'm currently, principal of a school that has about 800 kids in it, from grades 9 to 12. This is kind of a little bit of a change for me. As I was telling you earlier. I've spent all of my career up to this point in rural Saskatchewan, in, in smaller schools, K to 12, 7 to 12 around, you know, 2 to 300 kids.

00:01:45:23 - 00:01:49:15
Jaren
So this is a bit of an adjustment in scale but a great opportunity.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:58:07
Penny
Yeah. So I'm thinking about it end of September here. Have you learned all their names all 800 kids yet?

00:01:58:09 - 00:02:14:23
Jaren
That's funny that you asked this. As as I've gotten good at that, "Hey, buddy. Hey, pal. How are you?", I'm waiting for some of the kids that I've said that too many days in a row to be like, "Do you actually know my name?" And it's, been some of those fun conversations around, like, "I've got 800 of you,

00:02:14:23 - 00:02:17:09
Jaren
please, just just, give me some time, and I'll get there."

00:02:17:13 - 00:02:33:06
Penny
Okay, so just give me one glimpse. I did it with flashcards when I had 175 seventh graders, and I had 11 Heathers. Just saying. Many Tiffanys, right? So I had these. I like practice night after night. How are you learning all those names?

00:02:33:06 - 00:02:54:11
Jaren
Yeah, there is actually, did you ever read. I think it was Todd Whitaker's book about, it was something like 101 Things Good Principals Do Differently. Edit that out and actually what the book actually is. But, he had this cool thing where he said, like, when he became principal, he would take home, like the yearbook from the year before, and he'd actually, like, study the kids' faces names because you need those pictures. So, we don't have to do the yearbook anymore.

00:02:54:11 - 00:03:20:04
Jaren
Everything is on, programs now, obviously, that we'd have our kids, but it is actually like, that is before I started the job. Just. I have, 61 staff underneath me. And so started obviously with the staff looking at their pictures on the website with names to make sure I had them, all sorted. And then since the kids are here, it's a regular occurrence in the evening, and my wife and I will be watching a show or something before bedtime or reading a book, and I'll be actually just like studying faces and names.

00:03:20:04 - 00:03:24:11
Jaren
Kind of grade by grade, class by class. That idea. And so I'm chipping away.

00:03:24:13 - 00:03:37:21
Penny
You know what? There's a reason that I asked you that question, and that's because I know who you are. And a lot of leaders, I could ask that question, and they'd tell me that there's no way you can learn them. But I knew you would.

00:03:37:23 - 00:03:39:11
Jaren
I fully intend to.

00:03:39:13 - 00:04:06:03
Elaine
Yeah. Yeah. Even just staff! Yeah. For sure. The idea of getting connected to your staff. Yeah. Which which leads us into, where we are, where I started with you, and how I connected with your work was the idea of the use of conferring. That was one of the things that you wrote about as an essay. And some of the work that Penny and I did together, and I was really fascinated about that.

00:04:06:03 - 00:04:28:18
Elaine
And now it brings another whole dimension about that was such an important piece of who you were as a leader, conferring and getting to know your your staff as individuals. Because I know you used to say to in one of the pieces in the essay you said I loved, I talked about the well-being, the health of the teacher, not just what they do.

00:04:28:19 - 00:04:41:11
Elaine
So I guess I want you to go back to that and share that that whole process with our listeners. Because for me personally, as a former administrator, it was just so powerful the way you did that.

00:04:41:12 - 00:05:05:05
Jaren
Thanks, I appreciate that. Our work as leaders, Elaine, as you know very well it's so vulnerable and it's so personal and it's so relationship based that I don't actually know how you can be an effective leader and effectuate any meaningful change or rally people around a common goal or create a positive school culture with your staff without those like intimate personal relationships that are rooted in trust.

00:05:05:07 - 00:05:30:11
Jaren
And so, as it pertains to conferring, I again don't know how you achieve that without conversation. We're we're social creatures and we want to talk to each other. We want to be heard, and we want to know that our voices are heard. And we have to make time for that conversation that just is so critical to the forming of relationships that then foster positive school culture and allow you to, you know, create an effective school and an effective learning environment.

00:05:30:11 - 00:05:53:02
Elaine
So you spoke about in your work, that time matters. I remember you writing that about the time matters. And I think that in some of my conversation with my colleagues, they right away go to, oh, it's impossible with a full staff to get that done. And I think you managed, you managed your school and you created a culture of that.

00:05:53:07 - 00:05:58:07
Elaine,
So if you could just talk a little bit about how do you develop that time to meet with the teachers?

00:05:58:10 - 00:05:59:23
Jaren
Yeah, I'm eating my words on that.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:04:18
Elaine
That that time, too. I think it's really important for our for our crew to understand.

00:06:04:18 - 00:06:30:14
Jaren
Yeah. So part of it is honestly being very intentional about how you structure and organize your time during the day, because you can have all of your time as a leader, being eaten up by the managerial tasks of running a building and students and parents and and your staff's needs and trying to attend everybody's needs while your inbox gets flooded with emails and your phone is ringing and it's it's really easy to get overwhelmed and to pour all of your time to that managerial piece.

00:06:30:20 - 00:06:48:01
Jaren
And so I think it's really intentional to structure your time in your, in your day around making opportunities to connect with people. So I will block off parts of my day, no matter how urgent the phone call is, no matter unless the school is literally on fire, you will find me every morning outside greeting our students as they come off the bus.

00:06:48:01 - 00:07:16:19
Jaren
And it starts at that point where you're making face time, you're making connections, you're asking them about how their hockey game was the night before and how they're doing, and you're connecting with your staff when they come in. All of the other business pieces or transactional information can wait because you're making time for people. I'll always try and start my day with a tour of the school, where I get to pop my head into every classroom so that the kids know who I am, so that the teachers know, that I'm supportive of them and making that time to make connections and check in.

00:07:16:19 - 00:07:40:07
Jaren
And then you block away time for the managerial parts of the job that you have to do. But again, in a very intentional way where I'll circulate back out. I had a stand-up when I inherited this, this desk in this office, in this job. There was a stand up desk which I had never had before. And immediately one of my first like, actions was saying, I don't need the stand up desk because I want to be out talking to people.

00:07:40:07 - 00:07:47:04
Jaren
So, like, if I need to get my steps in and I need to get out of my chair, I am going to go out into classrooms, I'm going to talk to staff, I'm going to talk to students.

00:07:47:04 - 00:08:15:06
Penny
So in your essay, in the work, in the smaller school, you talked about having actual conferrals, actual time with every teacher, every staff position. It wasn't just with educators but with custodians. And that that time set aside at least once a year where they could really tell you what was happening. Do you think you can do that in an 800 kid, 60 staff school?

00:08:15:07 - 00:08:37:01
Jaren
Yes, but I have to leverage other people. That's the big lesson I'm learning about trying to do the same things that I feel made me successful at the last place, but trying to do that at-scale is, I have a great staff around me that you have to empower and trust and and so it starts with those people closest to you when you're in those leadership positions, but leveraging those people to have those same conversations.

00:08:37:01 - 00:08:56:16
Jaren
So we are going to have what we call our professional growth plan conversations. But it's a conversation guide, not just a document that gets filed away somewhere in a filing cabinet. So we will actually take our entire staff, like you said, the custodians, the educational associates, our admin assistants, and of course our teachers and everybody in between, and we will divide our staff.

00:08:56:16 - 00:09:20:04
Jaren
I have, two vice principals that work directly with me, and we will divide the staff and we will organize ways to get them out of the class, or to go see them in their class, or to visit them on their prep or to after school, before school, at lunch. I said, I'll meet somebody in the evening and go have a beer and talk about a professional growth, kind of conversation.

00:09:20:04 - 00:09:30:21
Jaren
And it's just so much more real and so much more vulnerable. And then it is a huge investment of time. But the payoff is so substantial long term that it's a great investment of time.

00:09:30:23 - 00:09:34:11
Penny
I would I would opt for the beer. I'm just saying.

00:09:34:13 - 00:09:35:00
Jaren
Me too.

00:09:35:02 - 00:09:54:10
Elaine
one of the things in rereading your essay, you know, I talked about that time matters, space matters. You refer to space, and you just alluded to that about the idea of just meeting people and asking teachers where they wanted to meet. So that openness about that and understanding what people were comfortable with. The piece that I'm interested in

00:09:54:10 - 00:10:22:02
Elaine
and I think that, our colleagues who are listening, is the process of conferring was your anchor and you connected that with professional development plans or professional learning plans, if you could just share how teachers. It just seems to me like such a comfortable opportunity to get to know teachers around their work instead of starting with just, the observation of the work. I'm interested in,

00:10:22:02 - 00:10:29:21
Elaine
and you articulated the connection between conferring and the professional development learning plan. Could you tell us how you did that?

00:10:29:23 - 00:10:50:01
Jaren
Yeah, sure. So can I use the sandwich model in conversation where, like, if you sat in on one of our conferring opportunities or conferring interviews with a teacher. So it's always going to start with like, "how are you doing?" types of questions. Like, "how are you feeling? Do you enjoy coming to work every day?" Very personal and very like vulnerable questions about like, I care about you as a person.

00:10:50:03 - 00:11:07:09
Jaren
This is a high burden job and a, you know, healthy teachers that are happy coming to work every day are going to be good, productive teachers. So like, do you enjoy coming to work every day? Do you feel good? How are you taking care of yourself? How are you balancing, you know, your mental health or your work life balance with all the other things on your plate?

00:11:07:15 - 00:11:31:06
Jaren
So right off the bat, it's kind of disarming where it's not you. What are you doing in your class? What is your professional goal? It's it's how are you as a person and as a human being? And are you thriving? And it and then I book-end that at the very end with what can we do as a, as administrators to support you in your work or support you in your personal life, or support your work life balance or support whatever you're passionate about?

00:11:31:06 - 00:11:56:00
Jaren
And so really bookending it with, like, I care about you as a human being, your happiness and job satisfaction is critically important to me on a very personal level, because I know the happy teachers are great teachers, generally speaking. And so trying to have that. And then of course, sandwiched in the middle, there's some very like business-y type things that we are required to ask, but it's very much framing it as I care about you as a person, how can I support you and how can I help you be the best version of yourself?

00:11:56:00 - 00:12:13:15
Jaren
And I think people, it's disarming and people are so vulnerable because people want to be heard and they want to talk about what they're passionate about. And through that conversation, they'll often tell you what they're struggling with or where their vulnerabilities are or where their areas are improvement, because that trust has been built and they know that I care about them as a human being.

00:12:13:15 - 00:12:21:13
Jaren
And then you can work from those areas where they're struggling to to connect them with what you need to connect them with, to nudge them forward.

00:12:21:15 - 00:12:42:19
Elaine
I was in reading your your essay as well, another piece that I, that I saw that I appreciate, I think others will is the idea of peer support and how you use the information that you got from both your conferral and the discussions about professional development or professional learning, and how you expanded that to get peer support for the teachers.

00:12:43:00 - 00:13:07:11
Elaine
So that too was a purposeful approach rather than just general. These general sessions for professional development. And so I'm I'm fascinated with that. And how that helped and how you saw teachers sort of gravitate to expanding their own professional learning. I mean, are you asking what I'm hearing is the peer support to me sounds like, are you connecting teachers to each other?

00:13:07:11 - 00:13:13:05
Penny
Yeah. Not just to you in that. Right. That's that's something that's part of what you're doing.

00:13:13:05 - 00:13:31:22
Jaren
Very intentionally. Like, obviously we have a certain capacity and a level of expertise in different areas, but we are diluting ourselves no matter who it is and myself included. If you think that you have the answers to everything, or you are the best person to nudge every staff member in all of these different disciplines and areas of passion, that is just a recipe for disaster, and we're deluding ourselves.

00:13:31:22 - 00:14:05:18
Jaren
And so it's really important to figure out our job is to figure out what that person needs to grow and, and then connect them with that person or those resources. And often in a building as big as this, I firmly believe in, and I said it in the essay that, like, the answers are typically in the room when you get a lot of passionate educators together in a room and you actually normalize it to to talk vulnerably about what our challenges are, often you're going to find natural connections within your staff about people who are thriving in that area, or people who who have had that same struggle and how they've come out of that.

00:14:05:18 - 00:14:26:06
Jaren
And so a big part of our job is naturally finding those leaders that are on every staff and connecting them with teachers who might be struggling with certain aspect of their classroom or their professional, their instruction or their assessment and and just allowing those relationships to flourish. There's also a natural, a relationship is different from teacher to teacher,

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:44:02
Jaren
And a teacher and administrator. No matter how much we try to foster that relationship. And I firmly believe that we have great relationships, there's always a little bit of a difference or in perception when a teacher is speaking with their administrator, and when you can connect them with other teachers who are passionate about the same things they were who have had the same struggles in them.

00:14:44:02 - 00:14:56:20
Jaren
So there's such a level of vulnerability and trust that usually comes with that, that they take off and run. So we're very intentional about leveraging the capacity and expertise and passion of the teachers in our building, in connecting them with other teachers.

00:14:56:21 - 00:15:03:02
Penny
I love that. Can I ask you a hard question? Because of course it's a podcast. We can just delete it.

00:15:03:02 - 00:15:06:16
Jaren
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'll try my best.

00:15:06:18 - 00:15:31:09
Penny
So I worked in more than one place where conflicts developed among teachers, and in one department I was in, it was pretty bitter. And I'm curious, like I had a principal who went to a particular department for their PLC meeting every week for eight weeks to help them resolve a conflict. And I was always like, "I don't know how you did that, but it worked."

00:15:31:09 - 00:15:39:15
Penny
And I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about hard conversations. You have to have or hard, you know, multi teacher conversations.

00:15:39:17 - 00:15:58:02
Jaren
Absolutely. And Penny, I actually think that this is why I know I'm biased, but that's why I think English teachers actually make great administrators. Generally speaking is that we we generally like love to talk and we love people. And so one of the, one of the things you have to be prepared for as a leader is you're leading people.

00:15:58:02 - 00:16:28:07
Jaren
It is not about leading policy. It is not a leading, just about learning in a vacuum. It is like actually just empowering and leading people. And so people naturally have conflict that is a part of it. You have to be able to get people to sit in the same room and be able to have a conversation, and I feel that the vast majority of those conflicts that you're describing actually arise out of either a lack of communication or a miscommunication that then just gets embedded, people get rooted in or they're not hearing the other person or they're not open to hearing the other person.

00:16:28:09 - 00:16:43:15
Jaren
And so one of the skill sets that you have to have is as a leader, and it is just leveraging conferring, is being able to like sit down with people and get us all in the same room, set an agenda of like, what do we want to come out of this conversation? What is the future state that we all want?

00:16:43:15 - 00:17:09:00
Jaren
We want everybody to be happy coming to work. Nobody enjoys tension with their colleagues when they're walking down the hallway. Nobody enjoys those feelings of conflict. So it's like, what's our future state that we want to get to? How do we get there? Let's be open and honest about how we got here, and then let's be very like solution oriented instead of dwelling on past hurt and trauma and, and try to hear each other and come to some sort of a reasonable middle ground.

00:17:09:00 - 00:17:41:16
Jaren
And I don't want to sound naive, but usually when you actually get people in a room and they have a chance to be heard, which is again, something that that'll be very positive about, they want their chance to be heard, is that people will then be vulnerable to and being open to what does a future better state look like and how do we get there, and to hearing and listening to each other. So it really is just about making time to actually come together with those people and sit down at that table like your previous administrator did, and getting them to that place by kind of forcing that communication.

00:17:41:16 - 00:17:55:03
Penny
Oh man, it's so powerful, Jaren because we've all worked in places where a simmering thing that no one will deal with continues to erode the joy that is just necessary to do this work.

00:17:55:05 - 00:18:19:23
Jaren
Absolutely. And it's I know we are in such a culture of like, everybody's under a time crunch and we default to emails for paper trails and all of those types of sometimes necessary things. But when we forget about human beings- again, human beings are our conversation, conversational people, they're relationship people. We have to prioritize. And even in the moment when it feels like I've got a million things to do that I need to get done.

00:18:20:01 - 00:18:39:09
Jaren
When you invest that time in people over the long term, it's a long, long game as a leader that your staff is going to be a better staff and your building is going to be a better building, and your school culture is going to be improved by that, that you're actually going to make less work for yourself in the long term by investing that time in people daily.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:04:13
Penny
I think the thing that it is so true, and the thing that we forget, is that everything the leader does is a model for the teachers of what you hope the teachers will do in those conflicts with kids and in conflicts you see happening between kids. And we kind of forget that the leader is that model. I think sometimes teachers think the leader is just the administrator, but that's really not true because the more you confer, the more the teacher will confer with kids.

00:19:04:15 - 00:19:23:07
Jaren
Absolutely. It's even funny just coming to this new it's like a big new fancy school. The way they even design the buildings is like administrators are tucked in the back, like I'm tucked way in the back now, and I could hide in my office and I could busy myself with emails and paperwork and all the other aspects of my job.

00:19:23:07 - 00:20:01:18
Jaren
Whereas when we were when I was in my old school with my two hallways with 200 kids, it was like I had two entrances to my office that were right across the main hallway. Kids would pop in all the time. Teachers would pop in all the time. It's just making it natural and normal to have conversation with each other, to check in with each other, to normalize face to face conversation, as opposed to email conversation that can be so subject to tone and informality and and different ways of interpretation that they're actively trying to foster a culture where it's just like we just talk to each other, you know, it seems very simplistic, but just

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:19:15
Jaren
like we talk to each other in person as much as we possibly can. And if you have- whether it's an issue or a solution or idea or something you're passionate about, it's just like, let's talk to each other when we can. Let's not send emails. Let's go and actually see each other and connect. And it's just like you feed off each other's joy and passion in that regard.

00:20:19:20 - 00:20:38:23
Elaine
One of my favorite, and Penny will remember this, is simplicity is the highest level of sophistication. Many years ago, I listened to Steve Job. I was in Cambridge going to school, and I heard Steve Job and, and that's basically what you're saying. I mean, when you say just talk to people, it's the highest level of sophistication to be at that simplicity is there.

00:20:38:23 - 00:20:46:22
Elaine
And it's remarkable. Another piece that I just have, and I know we're running out of time because we could talk to you for hours and hours and all you could.

00:20:46:22 - 00:20:48:22
Jaren
I could too, but you should, you should.

00:20:49:03 - 00:21:08:20
Elaine
There are a lot of our colleagues who, like you, are starting in a new school. So what advice can you give to them of where they've just listened to you? And they said, I'm going to do that. I want to be like Jaren. So what advice can you give them about where to start going into a new school that's so much bigger than your previous one?

00:21:08:20 - 00:21:27:04
Jaren
Yeah, I think it starts with like prioritizing people over paperwork for a really simple cliche, but is prioritizing people or paperwork and then it's like you have to be able to leverage the people around you. So you have to trust you can't micromanage, you can't try to do everything yourself. That's a recipe for burnout. And it's it's just a failing.

00:21:27:04 - 00:21:48:08
Jaren
It's not going to work. And so you have to leverage the good people around you, empower them, tap into people's different strengths. And that's right from your vice principals and your admin assistants all the way through to your teacher leaders and your leaders on staff and connecting with each other. So literally leverage that relationship, those relationships. Leverage the capacity within your staff and within your people.

00:21:48:13 - 00:22:07:19
Jaren
Make time for people and prioritize that. Be very intentional about your time and don't allow the, the less important and the less essential, the less foundational parts of the job eat up all your time and energy because they can, and they will if you allow them to be that. Don't be afraid of conflict. Conflict and conflict resolution is such a part of

00:22:07:20 - 00:22:26:11
Jaren
A job of leadership, of of just being like, we can solve conflict through conversation if we sit down together at the proverbial table and we just are open to hearing each other and we're being open and honest and we're all focused on a common goal of a better future state, we'll get there. And I just think it's being very intentional with that.

00:22:26:11 - 00:22:39:01
Jaren
And people are going to feel that and they're going to know you care about them in a real and a genuine way, and they will go to bat for you, and they will go to bat for the school, and they'll go to bat for the kids. And the school is just a better place to be.

00:22:39:03 - 00:22:45:19
Penny
That's all you need that little bit. No, no, we have to know. We ask everybody this at the end of the podcast. What are you reading?

00:22:45:19 - 00:23:05:02
Jaren
I am a big Canadian Boy Malcolm Gladwell fan, so I just finished Revenge of the Tipping Point. I love him, I also love listening to his voice. So anytime I have a chance to listen to his audiobook or one of his podcasts, I really love him. I also read like one of the most heartbreaking but powerful books I've ever read is When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi.

00:23:05:03 - 00:23:25:14
Jaren
I don't know if you've heard it. It's amazing and so powerful. And now my wife is reading it. And so she's every night crying when I come to bed. And then I've kind of been all over the place. And, Morgan Hounsel, I got into him, Psychology of Money, and Same as Ever. And so I've kind of been scattering all over the place, but, all very, great authors and great books.

00:23:25:14 - 00:23:30:20
Penny
Love that. When Breath Becomes Air, it absolutely flattened me.

00:23:30:22 - 00:23:31:17
Jaren
Yes.

00:23:31:19 - 00:23:43:19
Penny
Jaren we could talk for hours, but we have to go. We hope that we maybe can come and visit. We have to figure this piece out. But we adore you. Your work is transformational. Thank you.

00:23:43:21 - 00:23:46:05
Jaren
Thank you so much for having me, I sincerely appreciate it.

00:23:46:09 - 00:23:53:22
Penny
Given so much. We appreciate it a lot. Yeah, it's great to see any time, anytime, anywhere, anytime I get that.

00:23:54:00 - 00:23:54:11
Jaren
I mean.

00:23:54:11 - 00:23:57:10
Elaine
It. All right. Nice to see you okay.

00:23:57:12 - 00:23:59:12
Jaren
Nice to see you. Thank you guys. Take care.