Midwifery Wisdom Podcast | Maternal-Assisted Cesarean with Ashley Lawlor

Join Augustine on the Midwifery Wisdom Podcast as she welcomes Ashley from Michigan, who shares her transformative journey from birth trauma to healing and empowerment. Ashley, a former ICU nurse, candidly discusses the importance of recognizing and honoring birth trauma, advocating for co-care and collaborative care, and the revolutionary experience of having a maternal assisted C-section. Together, they delve into the significance of patient rights, the balance between medical intervention and natural processes, and the profound impact compassionate, dignified care can have on the birthing experience. This episode is a powerful testament to the possibility of change and hope within the birthing community.

Links:
For more information about the Turnkey Birth Centre for Sale in Abilene, Texas, write to [e-mail]
Follow Ashley's Instagram @birthonherterms

00:00 Introduction and Special Announcement
01:26 Meet Ashley: A Journey of Change
03:32 Balancing Art and Science in Birth
04:08 Challenges in Community-Based Midwifery
08:48 Ashley’s Personal Birth Experiences
21:40 The Maternal Assisted C-Section
37:41 Standing Firm on Informed Decisions
38:21 The Importance of Family Inclusion
39:52 Advocating for Support During Birth
41:16 The Impact of Birth Experiences on Mental Health
42:28 The Need for Patient Rights and Advocacy
44:14 The Role of Communication in Healing
48:36 Transforming Pain into Power
49:11 Balancing Passion and Parenthood
54:12 The Value of Midwives and Postpartum Support
01:04:20 The Importance of Trauma-Informed Care
01:12:58 Advocating for Change in Healthcare
01:16:54 Sharing the Journey and Future Plans

Creators and Guests

Host

Augustine Colebrook

What is Midwifery Wisdom Podcast ?

Welcome to the Midwifery Wisdom Podcast

This podcast is your go-to resource for practical education, thoughtful insights, and relevant conversations tailored to modern midwives.

Each week, we bring fresh content and engaging guest speakers to explore key themes in midwifery, including:

Advocacy, business, and clinical skills
Self-care and professional growth
Current issues shaping midwifery today
Listen to meaningful stories and essential advice from leading midwives working to elevate care for families across the globe. Gain clarity, encouragement, and actionable guidance to support your business, practice, and personal life.

Wherever you are in your journey, the Midwifery Wisdom Podcast is here to empower you. Together, we strive to make midwifery the gold standard of care worldwide.

Ashley Lawlor Maternal-Assisted Cesarean
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[00:00:00] Hi, friends and birth peeps

Augustine here.

Before we begin today's episode,

I want to share a rare opportunity

with our midwifery community.

Midwifery Wisdom Collective is currently

acting as a connector for a

fully operational purpose built

birth center for sale in Abilene, Texas.

This opportunity is available due to the

owner's planned relocation,

not because the center is struggling.

It actually has been very successful,

sustainable, and it is deeply

needed in this community.

This is the only birth center

serving a two hour radius located just

minutes from a level two NICU hospital

in a region experiencing a real shortage

in maternity care providers.

The center has been profitable

as a solo practice and it has

clear potential for growth,

particularly for a CNM or

group practice because

of the high military population billing tricare.

If owning, expanding, or stewarding

a birth center has been on your [00:01:00] mind,

or if you know someone who's been

waiting for the right opportunity,

we invite you to get in touch.

To request more information,

including a slide deck and sales presentation,

please email [e-mail].

That's a m [e-mail].

You'll also find details in our show notes, and now on to today's very special episode.

welcome to the Midwifery Wisdom

podcast, Ashley, tell us who you are,

where you are, and what you're

all about my name's Ashley. I reside in Michigan in the US and

I am adventuring on this journey

of hopefully becoming one of the

upcoming major change agents about

realizing and honoring, birth trauma,

but also just change that can happen

and in my opinion, needs to happen

within the birth world and just how

we treat [00:02:00] people, quite honestly. Gosh. Yeah.

Let's put a big exclamation point on that. when you say the birthing world, I'm

assuming you're not just talking about

obstetric violence, but you're also talking about the world

of community-based midwifery.

Yes. In my own opinion, co-care,

collaborative care, all combinations

of care, are the best way to treat women

and to minimize birth trauma and to

create good equality care throughout

the broad span of birthing people

and I think that really needs

to be brought more attention.

I think we've gotten so focused

on medical advancements

to treat and help those that have

major complications or challenges

within pregnancies in birth, which

does need to be worked on. But I think within that, we've lost the

aspect that [00:03:00] not all the time is that the

case and birth can also just be left to unfold.

And if there are some not as advanced

challenges within the pregnancy, birth

postpartum, there can be a lot less a

major hands-on approach and little things

can happen first before all the big things.

And that can make a big impact on the

psychological aspect of the woman

and the family and whole process.

Yeah. I talk about this a lot, the balance

between art and science, between medicine

and midwifery, between head and

heart,

right? Like we're finding that balance and it seems

historically the obstetrical

world has been over interventive and the

midwifery world has actually been under interventive.

A lot of the cases that I see are really a lot

of needless suffering and lack of action and

then of course, everything we hear coming

out of the hospital [00:04:00] is that they're jumping

to cesarean or they're recommending

induction or what have you, right? Yes, absolutely.

Let's talk a little bit,

let's narrow in on the

community-based space,

because obviously

this is who most of

our listeners are, and

obstetric violence is really a problem.

And I know we're gonna touch

on that in a bit. but let's focus on the

community-based,

space and

can you tell me what resources

you feel like you have seen or

advocate for or are concerned about?

Yeah, so something that's really big to

me is, especially here in Michigan, so

there's primarily a major focus for,

in terms of community-based birth.

it's mostly CPMs. Um, in this area, we actually had, as of almost two years ago now, we have

our first CNM in the area, which was

amazing to me and I absolutely love her.

She [00:05:00] is been fantastic. and that's comforting,

was more comforting in a way

for me, for my second birth. I had a lot of challenges with my first

birth, and so to have someone

with a little bit more

knowledge, so to say, and a little bit

more experience,

she really matched my

background in terms of

experience before

going into her master's for, midwifery.

we were both former ICU nurses had

a lot of similar backgrounds that made me

very comfortable and going on a new journey. but. She's done a lot of work also

with the CPMs in this area. And even in talking to her,

for me, a big thing is talking about, home

birth transfers,

community birth transfers,

things like that.

And the respect that sometimes is

lacked severely, for her

colleagues from

the CPM standpoint, that she doesn't

experience all the time

as a CNM. that was very interesting for

me to hear about how they are

treated so differently [00:06:00] sometimes.

Can you gimme an example? I guess for me, something she relayed was

that her thought process

behind it is sometimes CPMs

that might not have access

to or as much of a background

or training in the community birth setting,

when things go wrong sometimes.

There is a delay or not caught off,

caught, you know, some inklings to

a situation going on. so in her thoughts,

she was thinking it might

be more related to,

they sometimes drop

off more so complicated, more urgent, patients

in a delay of transfer,

whereas her transfers,

she thinks typically are

usually more ahead of that time frame.

so that was something she kind of thought

about as to one of the

reasons maybe why, is

that, not that she hasn't had to bring in,

super urgent medical transfers, but most

of the time there before that happens.

[00:07:00] And then also just her background

and being able to have a lot of that.

Yeah, that's just medical experience.

Yeah. This is a common, juxtaposition

between CPM and CNM world.

And it's also, one of those really. Scary

and kind of swept under the rug realities.

And the fact of the matter is, one of the

reasons that mainstream obstetrical world

is so afraid of community-based birth

and community midwives is

because of these quote

unquote train wrecks

that keep popping up

in the hospitals, that the

receiving physicians

and oftentimes receiving CMS are receiving clients who they,

in their opinion, is a delay in transfer.

I just did a really extensive, charting updates

course and talked about midwives who are being

arrested, jailed, sued for very poor outcomes. I think this is a, is kind of a, a systemic issue. Certainly parts of the country have it worse

than other parts, but I think it's [00:08:00] a real, theme

where the attempt to try to have that

normal birth to meet the client's needs.

To have, the experience that everyone

wants to have, that potential is held in

higher regard than the realities of the vitals

that they're taking or of, you know, how this situation is unfolding. And, and it ends up being a real crisis. And then that client, aside from

the crisis of their actual medical health,

they go, they do experience quite a

lot of trauma because of that transfer.

And that brings us back to this

concept of having collaborative care. So tell me more about your ideas or your

experience, what you're hoping happens. Yeah, so my, first birth, I actually requested the transfer. and I'm very glad I did because if I didn't get to that point beforehand, we would've

ended up in a not as great [00:09:00] of a situation.

So unfortunately, regardless of the

situation, my trauma honestly resulted

more so from just the treatments of

the receiving hospital that I went to

and unfortunately the biggest thing for

me was always like, it didn't have to be this bad,

like the situation was unfolding, but it was going slow enough that with proper communication

care, compassion, empathy, it did not

need to have the impact that it did

with

my second baby, I developed my care

team probably about. Just about a year, honestly, before

even conceiving my second child. Wow. I was very compassionate about having

a plan and having a very experienced,

thorough team who was going to do as

much as I could to get me my experience

that I wanted as a home birth, but also

be very realistic and honest and be able

to give me comfort of if something does

happen, I'm gonna, it's gonna be okay.

so I spent about a [00:10:00] year, developing that team. I found an amazing doula who's

got years and years, hundreds of

births, of experience previously. Had a background as a licensed

therapist doing like marriage

counseling and things like that

before going into her doula work.

Beautiful. and then I found an amazing

hospital system on u University of

Michigan who has a very extensive. Nurse midwifery team that's very well

respected by the OBS in their department. Even their high risk service has nurse

midwives as part of their team. To be able to provide that midwifery care and

approach, which to me was huge.

so, and even when I brought up the idea

that I was gonna attempt to have another

home birth, the midwife there at University

of Michigan, she was like, that's fantastic. That's great. And I was honestly very

shocked to hear that reaction. Love that. but she was like, you know, we're,

if something happens, we're here.

I found the nurse midwife who had moved,

this is [00:11:00] actually her home state, but had moved here back with her family, and I was actually looking for

doulas the night that I came across her site. And I was like, this was meant to be,

this is who I am going to have so

we went through all the things,

when I originally talked to her.

I quite honestly wasn't even determined on if I was going to go the home birth

route because of my future experience. but to me, I approached with her of, would

you be open to going down this future

journey with the possibility of doing a

home birth, but also the possibility of me

deciding that I just wanna have this child

in the hospital and I want you there as a

support person and my personal advocate, free of bias

of the system to go over all the things.

And also that has, you know, a continuity of care. That, for me, was huge. I was never anyone who wanted to

be able to go into a hospital and

not know who my provider was [00:12:00] beautiful. So we ventured down that

journey with that being. All the options. And to me it was huge. There's not many midwives really, that I've known of, or even my

doula knows of, that would be willing to kind of start

a journey with the possibility of

not even actually having a home birth.

So that was huge for me. So I had kind of the unicorn

of a team that I found. Amazing and will you tell us,

How that unfolded? What it, what happened for you? Yeah, so my 20 week ultrasounds for

my anatomy scan, it was done

at, like a not hospital related place.

so they, radiologist ended up reading the

ultrasound read as like a complete previa.. Also there was some echogenic, hyper echoic

spots on the intestine and bowel of baby. So they referred us to the, maternal fetal medicine, which

was at University of [00:13:00] Michigan. so we went there, thankfully, there wasn't

actually any previa, so we don't really

know where that came from, but there was

still the hyper coic and echogenic spots.

So within that and researching all that, preparing for that scan and realizing

that I potentially, if there was previa,

thankfully there wasn't, but that would

basically more so potentially very

likely mean another C-section at first that to me was very triggering,

but then it was almost this

weird sense of solace in a way.

and very early in some ways of this journey. I was like, I don't know what that tells me. Feeling wise, I had been doing a lot of

EMDR lot of work to like figure all

these feelings out throughout the process. That was something we did talk about. but thankfully that wasn't an issue, thankfully.

So, but we did continue to follow

up with maternal fetal medicine

throughout the course of the pregnancy. follow up scan for that showed that

those spots did actually resolve and

there was [00:14:00] not a concern at all from

maternal fetal medicine about those. Repeat scan though did show that one of

the baby's brain ventricles was borderline of

being too lar of, you know, being too big.

they

recommended we follow up on that, which

we did after everything with my

daughter, I was like, you know what? I don't want to have to transfer. And then anyone have any sort of stand

to be like, well you didn't follow up on this. Because that was one thing that was

brought up with my daughter was something that was pretty minimal.

In relation. They were like, well, you

didn't follow up on this and I was like, that has

not really anything to do with this situation. But that was my thing. I was like, I don't want anyone to be

able to tell me I didn't do something. So we went back. The ventricles balanced out. That was not an issue at all, but

it did then show polyhydramnios.

and baby had been having an unstable

lie throughout this whole time as well. So towards the end, [00:15:00] it was

probably around 34 weeks or so I started

talking to my home care midwife, my,

co-care U of M midwife and kind of figuring

out a situation because while they were

like, you know, a lot of times people can

still have VBACs and stuff with the Polyhydramnios.

My biggest thing was

protecting a good experience. I really, really wanted my home birth

Throughout the kind of back and forth of things, resolving

things popping up, it was always do I qualify? I, throughout the journey did end up

feeling like I really did want my home birth. I felt very comfortable in my team and our plan.

so that ended up did coming very

important to me and was almost a

process that I had to grieve in a way

of realizing that it was starting to slip

away again, of not having my home birth. but. [00:16:00] With everything. I was like, my biggest fear is going into

labor, and something happening and

there being another bad outcome

or a bad result, or a bad experience.

so my whole time I had been telling my birth team, I really

want this vbac but my biggest, most

important thing is a good experience

regardless of how this baby's born. so we started really talking about what

that through University of Michigan. Every appointment I advocated

to my, co-care midwife.

I was like, you know. My biggest thing is I want my baby. I need my baby. There is not really any sort of a

reason why this baby needs to go

to a warmer as long as they have

good agar scores when they're born. I was like, I need my baby. That was the biggest, most important

thing to me of healing was my messy

vernix covered baby straight on my chest.

she was like, we can most definitely [00:17:00] push for that. She's like, I can't always guarantee that, depending on

situation, circumstance, that we can make it happen. But it was flagged all over my chart. I saw big capital letters, baby needs to go to mom. that was huge to me. I made it very clear that I need to know what is happening

and why it is happening.

And if I'm being told no, why, whether it's just as simple as, because that's our policy. Or another reason I need to know why. Because last

time I felt like I was just being told any

sort of a reason that would hopefully

just make me content and happy. And I was not standing for that. I was like, I need to know

why and so she

really made sure that happened for me. and that was huge because I felt like with my daughter,

I tried very hard to advocate for myself, ask

questions, things to me did not [00:18:00] feel right. and I just kind of felt like I was being

annoying and overstepping my boundaries

of what I knew and didn't know.

she made sure everyone knew that if

we transferred whatever the situation

may be, that like, I need a good team. I don't, I was like, I am not working

with little baby residents. I don't care how nice or good they are I was

like, I want the fellows, I want the attendings. I don't want brand new baby nurses.

for me that was a little hard because I have a background. I

worked in ICUs for just about five years. I know what it's like to be new person, and to

learn and to have that experience. but to me, someone who's experienced

trauma, that's not the right person. And to me that needs to be respected and appreciated.

And that's so clear. It's so important. Gosh. Yeah. Well, so you get to [00:19:00] do something kind of revolutionary. Do you wanna tell us the story? Yes, I was in a really, really tough spot. Really just about all the way up until the last two or three

weeks of my pregnancy. I ended up deciding that I don't

wanna try the home birth thing.

I don't wanna wait for spontaneous labor. Realizing what that meant

in a way for VBAC success. I was like, I want a 39 week induction. I want things planned. I had a step by step plan of how I wanted my induction to go. That would give me, I came up with it, with

my doula, my midwife, everyone. I was like, I realize this doesn't

necessarily give me the most success

for a vbac, but it gives me the most

control, and that's what I need.

to me, I felt like my U of N midwife really,

really was, you know, understood everything I was feeling

about not being able to get my [00:20:00] home

birth, and also the lack of trust in just the system and the process. And I have heard many amazing

stories from so many women that

have had births here at U of M.

And to me that still didn't matter,

because of my own previous

experience at another institution. So my midwife was great. I actually honestly asked her. I was like, listen, my community

care midwife's gonna be there. I was like, can she be my

conduit during this induction? that was something new to her.

she was open to it and I greatly appreciated that because I was like, I

don't want this. You come in, you talk to us, we talk, then you, then, you know, you

come back, we talk to you. I was like, it just messes with everything. And I was like, she knows me. We spent nine months plus talking about everything.

Um, and I trust her. I was like, nothing against you guys. You can be the greatest. I don't trust you. I was like, unless you give me a reason to and obviously with the way things work

I can't guarantee that my lovely midwife

[00:21:00] from U of M was gonna be the one there

during the day of my induction or potentially

still on shift by the time baby was born.

she was like, I hear that. She's like, I think we can make that work. So I was like, great. And then I went in for my next visit not

the most comfortable but I was

there and she was like, listen, before

we even start this visit, she was

like, I have something to offer you. And I was like, okay. And she was like, so we've

only done this now twice.

so we were the third. but she was like, would you be open

to a maternal assisted C-section? And I got tears in my eyes and I kind of

froze because before I ventured on this whole journey, I had seen posts from

the first one they had done, which was just about six

months after my daughter was born.

that was actually a big trauma hit for me because I was [00:22:00] like, I advocated for not this full experience, but I

advocated for some of the components of it. And got told no so many times. So it was a big hit to the gut, the what I

saw there first, but to be offered it, I felt so surprised and in awe

because it meant the world.

And I was like, you know what? She's like, you, you did this. And I was like, I, I advocated, believe me, I did every single visit. I said how uncomfortable

I was and everything. But

I was like, you brought this to their attention. I was like, I did not go

seeking out this position. I was like, I, you know, you advocated for me.

And to me that meant the world of you not

only

listened to me and

empathized you went the

extra step to advocate on my behalf, realizing

everything that I had gone through in the [00:23:00] past. And I remember Find your solution. Yeah. Yeah. I remember

her saying like, okay, so do you feel like you're in

the right mindset to sign consents right now?

Or, you know, or we can wait, but, you know, we like

to have them beforehand. It just helps, you know, speed things along. Understandably I was like, I will gladly

sign that C-section consent, and that

is nothing I ever thought I would ever say. And a million years. Wow. And I was just shocked. I was like, I can't believe this.

I called my doula, I called my midwife. I was like, for the first time in months, I

have a plan that I am comfortable with

and there was a little bit of me at the time, all the way up until

my son was born, that was like, is this

gonna give me that same redemptive

feeling of my VBAC or of the home birth?

Honestly, I think it gave me more

[00:24:00] because when my son was born

and he was right on my chest and

everything, I was like, you know what? This shows me that, well,

unfortunately it is not the norm. And unfortunately so

many people don't get this. It does show me though, that there

is a better way this can happen.

And it does not always have to be that way. And that, you know, c-sections can be healing, they can be

redemptive, they can be everything. Especially with someone who's had trauma. and everyone from the surgeon

who I honestly didn't even meet her. and so day Well, can we go back

and can you, for people that

really don't understand, tell us.

Really explain what is mother assisted? What is a map? Yeah, so a mother assisted C-section [00:25:00] is

where,

I think the best way is honestly

just explain how it went for me. So I was in the pre-op area after I got

there, for the birth of my baby. listened to baby all the things. Got ready, got back to the or

the

surgeon met me in the pre-op area. She did not leave my side from the

second she showed up right before the case started, until after my

baby was born and we were in recovery. She came up, she held my arm during, while the spinal

was being placed in the or I

sat there, they did my spinal. I did need to be grounded a little bit

because I was like, I wanna feel all the things.

The anesthesiology team was amazing. They, it was almost like a paternal effect. Like it, to me, I felt like I was everyone's either daughter, spouse,

sibling, family, like that's how well I was treated. So while they placed the spinal, I was able

to have a support [00:26:00] person with me from my own side.

But my, the ob

Dr. Kathleen Mahari, she did not leave me. She was rubbing my arm the whole time. They did the spinal. After the spinal was placed,

they laid me down on the table. They started doing all the surgical

prep on the abdomen for that. And while they were doing that, they had me

put the, like the hand cleaning gel on my hands.

And then they placed surgical

gloves on my hands and surgical sterile sleeves on my hands. They put a sterile, like. I basically baby

towel on

top of my chest, and that's where I rested my hands. There was no drape at all, in

the beginning of the case. so I could see the surgeon, I could

reach out and touch her if I wanted to.

I could see everything to an extent. Had a big belly, so I couldn't actually see. I asked though, I was like, is there a mirror or

something where I can actually see? and they were like, no, [00:27:00] sorry. But, so I laid there with my hands

across my chest on the sterile towel. so excited. That's a good idea though.

They should add mirrors. I love your idea. we have mirrors for vaginal birth. We're not Yeah, I know. They're like, I don't know if anyone has

ever even like, thought about wanting

to see their, like open belly basically. And I was like, I could appreciate that. so I just laid there.

So excited. thankfully my baby flipped to head down. He, even in pre-op, he was transversed,

so they were like, we don't know

if you're actually gonna be able

to fully pull him out because we

would have to do a breach delivery. But they're like, I, she was like, I can definitely

a hundred percent guarantee you that

once he's out, you'll like, still reach down to

pick him up and bring him to your chest.

and was that because of the polyhis? He was just so fluid. Yes. He was so floaty. Yeah. Yeah. He would never settle into a spot. He would be oblique, he'd be

transverse, he'd be head down. He was breached for a while. He did flip, never [00:28:00] fully

went back to breach, but yeah, if he's

had sta oblique or transverse, they

were gonna have to do the c-section

basically from, a breach approach.

So then I wouldn't be able to like actually pull him out. But they were like, once he would

be out, you can still reach down and

pull him all the way up to your chest. Thankfully, baby cooperated, he, after

the spinal and everything, she checked

again and he decided to be head down. So that was amazing. so she kept me up to date

where they were throughout the procedure.

the anesthesia team was great. They kept checking in on

me, asking me how I was feeling, um, which was fantastic. And then, she got the head out and she

got his shoulders out and she was like, all

right, reach down and pull out your baby. And I was like, oh my goodness. So, anesthesia, team helped support

my back while I, I reached down,

I got to pull him under his arms.

Honestly, the first thing I remember [00:29:00] thinking

was, oh my goodness, he's so slippery. so I like kind of readjusted my grip

on him and I got to pull basically

from his shoulders all the way out. I pulled him out and I placed

him right on my chest. And I remember initially kind of being like,

oh my goodness, like, can I touch him?

Like, I don't wanna ruin,

like any like sterile thing. And the surgeon was like, he's your baby. You can move him around. Like, look at him. And I just remember, like, I was like, this is the best feeling in the

world I got to cut his cord. They honored my wishes. I asked them if they could milk the cord.

Which they were willing to do, they

were willing to delay the cord clamping

for the minute, which, was the most

that they did just because of the

placental placenta starting to detach. But, we did that. they even honored to me, which was huge. I had talked to them about like the antibiotics

just from the standpoint of the [00:30:00] C-section.

although I couldn't tell, there

wasn't always the most comfort

amongst the combined teams. Some providers were completely okay with it. Anesthesia didn't have an issue with it. Surgical standpoint, a little concern

just 'cause of infection risk. But she was like, you know, well if you

understand the risks and the benefits you

make, you can make that informed decision.

And to me, that meant the world. 'cause to me, I was like, that is

one battle I'm not gonna fight. I was like, I understand and I don't wanna

potentially cause a situation of I refused

them and then had some sort of an infection

and then they don't allow this anymore. So I had no issue with that,

but thankfully she did.

She was like, if that's a risk that you

acknowledge, then that's your decision. And so that's the way we went. Thankfully, everything healed perfectly fine. There was no infection or anything. But, that even that meant

so much to me of, you know, that's

your, as long as you're making that

informed decision, that is your [00:31:00] decision.

and well, like you said, like it is so

important to escalate only as needed

and not just throw everything at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got to keep so beautiful. Once I cut the cord, um, and everything, then they pulled the drape up. So. Which, whatever, I don't care. I don't have to be a component

of getting all stitched back up.

But, even that was huge. I had a lot of nausea and I unfortunately still did after my son, but with

my daughter, I had a lot of nausea and stuff,

so I even asked if they were willing to do

like an external repair of everything or like

a repair everything the way I wanted it so

that I could hopefully decrease the nausea.

And they were willing to, they did a full internal repair on there. Like it takes

a little longer and there's not a whole bunch of,

so to say, fully solidified evidence

that it works, but there is some evidence that

sometimes it can decrease nausea. So [00:32:00] I asked and they said yes. and my whole team was all either like fourth year senior

residents or full attendings, which was great.

I was like, I don't want students. They respected that. And I even asked, I was like, honestly. I was like, I know this isn't

something that you guys do a lot. I'm like, so does that mean that there's

gonna be

people that might like just be there to

observe or, like what's, I was like,

because I'm not interested in that.

And they're like, Nope. They're like, we fully respect your wishes. Plus since there is a slightly higher

risk of infection, given just the extra

involvement, they're like, they're gonna

want as little people there as possible. So, it was just amazing. I got to have my husband there. I got to have our doula there, and it

was like the best thing in the world.

And then, they finished the repair. Entire time baby stayed on my chest. The only time he, left me was when

they were done doing the [00:33:00] repair on the

nurse took him over to the warmer

just to get his height and weight and all that while they put me back onto the

stretcher to go back to the, recovery area.

And even that, all the way down to the smallest details, I was like, I don't want you to wipe him down. I don't want you to put his diaper on. I don't want anything to happen because I didn't get to do any of

that with my daughter. some of the things might be so small of like,

you wanna put the first diaper on your baby,

but they, I was like, that to me was something

I didn't get to do with my daughter.

and so they let me, so they were like, he

might pee on you, but you can have him. So I was like, that's fine. I don't care if he pees on me. So, we went back to recovery. I got to put his diaper and everything on. I did choose to do vitamin K. That

was the only thing I chose to do. and even that, they were like, do you

want us to do it in, you know, when

we do his height and weight or wait?

I was like, no, I'd like to wait. So [00:34:00] we did that. It was probably almost an hour and a half after he was born. I got to hold him and

nurse him

while they did

that, which was great. it was the most amazing

experience everyone was like, you

have that newborn baby high.

And I was like, I, it changed my life. I am a whole new person. I had done months and months of like EMDR and postpartum

courses, for trauma healing and all of the things. And the sad

part

is as amazing as it was, and as much as I remember it. Unfortunately, trauma is a very greedy thing and it sticks

in your mind more than the beautiful.

But I can remember exactly how I

felt when my daughter was born. and as much joy in everything

that I know I felt with my son. I can't bring that moment

back as with my daughter. that's why it's, [00:35:00] important to minimize

that initial trauma because as much

and everything that my son heals

there, it doesn't go, it doesn't

make the other stuff go away.

And that's so sad. Just 'cause you don't have a

bleeding wound anymore doesn't

mean you don't have the scar. Yes, exactly. And yeah, for me it's, I am so thankful to have

that standpoint of c-sections can be terrible. And your worst, literally with her

experience, every fear I had in

a hospital transfer came true.

Every single one. it wasn't just the doctors, it was

the doctors, the nurses, everyone. I had this beautiful experience

where every person respected me. Treated me with the utmost care

and everything in postpartum. I even had told them. I was like, even in postpartum, I

was like, I don't wanna be bothered.

I was like, just leave me alone. I have my [00:36:00] people. I was like, if I need you, I will call you,

but otherwise leave me alone please

and just bother me as little as possible. Do that cluster care, that everything. And they did. And it was great. I was discharged the next

night,

which was my request because I was

like, I need to be with my daughter.

I can't be here two nights. I was like, there was no issues. We're both doing great. so I was, they were willing to

discharge me the next day. Plus I was able to say, you know, I

have my home care midwife as well. She is going to see me the next

morning after I'm discharged, so I'm

not going a single day without care.

they respected my midwife, which was great. after my daughter was born and I, and

they came in doing our discharge for my

daughter, and they were like, yeah, so we,

we wouldn't recommend doing another home

birth as a VBAC and everything else. And basically, I, I spent honestly an hour.

I was like, I don't care. I spent an [00:37:00] hour and I educated them

on how there are policies and there are

things and qualifications that you need to

meet to be able to have a home birth and

different things like that and how there's

different types of providers and how just

because you're doing a home birth doesn't

mean you don't get labs and you don't get imaging.

And I did not care. I had one provider tell me with my daughter that there's no

evidence that supports that position,

changes in movement, can reposition a baby. And I just looked at her and I was like well, I

appreciate your input, but I am not going to

take that as advice because it is not true. and as someone who has a

background, I research everything.

I am a very good understanding of the

decisions I'm making with my daughter. I brought [00:38:00] UpToDate articles, with risks and

statistics and everything, and I was like, I

make this decision with all this research

honoring the fact of the potential outcomes. and they respected that with my

son, and that meant the world.

Well, I mean, what you're describing

is just like, it, it's at the, it's just like core common decency, right? Like you were at the center, you

made your own sovereign decisions people

supported

you and treated you with dignity and respect. that is just like basic healthcare,

but it's missing, it's completely missing.

And that's why this

experience was revolutionary. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's, to me it is. You know, there's um, just different things I was passionate

about beforehand, and again, it's one of those things I go back to when I was like, the care I [00:39:00] provided

when I was at the bedside with my

daughter was not the care I received.

it made me thankful because

when I had

my daughter, I was working in a outpatient

clinic, so I wasn't as present, but it made

me thankful for the bedside nurse I was

open to if we were doing minor bedside procedures, things like that. I very rarely asked family to step out.

As long as they were comfortable,

patient was comfortable, it

wasn't anything emergent. I was always very family inclusive

because it, to me, that means something. The family means something. They're the person's support system. They're there comfortably. The family. The family is there, is their root, right?

Yeah. When you amputate them from your root,

like you can watch the plant wither, right? Like they need that. Yes. With my daughter, I

advocated, I already had an epidural. That was one of the main reasons why I

transferred

with my [00:40:00] daughter. Um, she was posterior and ASIN

clinic and she just, wasn't losing.

Oh, yeah. I already had my epidural

and my nurse was okay. She wasn't great. There was only one nurse. and that was on the outgoing shift. Wasn't even our nurse just was there

helping us get originally settled into

our room that had looked at me and

said, I know this isn't what you wanted

and it wasn't your plan, but we're gonna make the best of it.

that was the first and last time I felt

anything like that with my daughter because. It wasn't my nurse, it

wasn't her shift, um, first and last time. And I remember asking, I was like, can my

husband come back to the OR with me? which again, realizing isn't necessarily

policy or protocol anywhere.

they wait until right before they start the

case to get your spouse or support person. I was like, I need someone to come with me. I was told no and the second that

I got brought outta my [00:41:00] room to go

have the c-section for my daughter

was the moment I disassociated. And to an extent, honestly, until my son was born, I

don't think that I fully came back.

I did a lot of work. a lot of reprocessing. but I did not fully feel

that me right in the heart. Until my son, because my

daughter was born, I didn't care. the anesthesia provider, this, she was actually a student, was

working with the attending, she actually asked

my husband do you have your phone?

I'll take a picture of you guys. I was smiling in the picture,

but I didn't wanna smile. I remember telling myself like, oh,

I have to smile, for this picture. I feel so bad, like it makes me feel, well, I know it's not

my fault and I know all those things now, and there's a lot less guilt behind it.

I wasn't the same person. even with my son, in the [00:42:00] postpartum

period, my husband, he's like, you're

such a better mom than you know. He's like, not that you were a bad mom, and I don't want that to come across as like, you know, he thought I was a bad mom,

but you're so much more patient

present and relaxed

I don't think

that's just because it's my second kid. I think it's because of the way

which he was brought into this world. Yeah. well, and and the effect

that had on you, right? Yes. I mean, and this is the thing

I always try to tell people. I try to say, cesarean is not the worst thing that can

happen, I promise you.

Yes. Cesarean is not the worst thing. Correct. Losing dignity, respect, losing control of

your own sovereign identity, losing the

ability to make decisions for yourself is

the worst thing that can happen because

it's a form of erasing your humanity. Yes. It makes, makes total sense to me that you disassociated,

because of course you were literally in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

You were [00:43:00] in like a functional freeze for several years

because that was the only way your

body knew how to keep you safe. Yeah, I remember, and this was even

before actually transferring, but I

remember with my daughter that I was

in my bedroom on the bedroom, my

bedroom floor and my hands and knees. And I remember making that decision

to transfer, knowing that's what I

needed to and trusting my body.

But I also remember that I was like,

that means from now on I am going

to have to fight for the birth I want. Partially hoping that wasn't the case. 'cause I'm like just, you know, thinking

of all my fears of the transferring

life and, but at the same time I

was like, I now have to prepare.

For all the things that I'm very

likely gonna have to fight for now and that is

what it was I from the second I

transferred and obviously that's

not a good spot for your body

when trying to have a child. [00:44:00] A child you know, is not going to want to be

born physiologically normal pathways.

So that's horrible. You're stressed out. Yeah. And everything. So from the second that I transferred

with my daughter, I remember

I was like, you know what? I'm like, I am no longer a mom. I'm no longer, you know, someone who's in

a calm state trying to have this child. It was like I, I felt like I was back at work.

I was the person that was advocating for

myself that was having to think of all the

medical things and question everything,

and I remember my daughter just 'cause

of her positioning and everything. I kept having these satanic contractions

and I remember sh, the first one was

before they had any medications,

I had my epidural and that was it and had

satanic contraction, her heart rate dropped. It came back up. And then I remember it [00:45:00] wasn't an hour later

that they were like, well, you're not really

having any sort of like cervical change

or progress, so we need to do Pitocin. I was the only one in that room that was

like, this does not make sense to me.

my midwife at the time, she was

a CPM, so obviously not as much

of the medical pharmacological

background, but I was the only one

that was like, this does not make sense. And I got the typical, well, we need

to do something for there to be

labor and for this baby to be born

And I was like, this does

not make sense to me. but there was no other option. No one gave me any other choice. I did not feel supported in the fact that there was another option other than just a gut feeling. But, so I agreed. long story short, obviously Pitocin did not work

because that was not the main issue.

that was a big thing for me I will

never let myself feel that way again. I will never just say yes. [00:46:00] Um, and that was huge. And from then on related to babies or not in my

health life, I'm like, if I do not get a good feeling, if I do not feel supported and heard. I will find another provider who will listen

to me regardless of how many people I

have to talk to or see or share my story with, because I will never feel that again.

And it's hard because so many

people will unfortunately sustain that and either

don't know how to advocate for

themselves or don't feel it's worth it. Because every time they do, they get

shot down or don't get heard. Yeah. Or don't have to support them in

advocating for themselves or the

knowledge of what they need to be

advocating for or even just their basic rights

What they can say no to or

can't It's

unfortunate and

it hurts me ever since

then, aside from [00:47:00] advocating for, you know, just obstetrical

violence and home birth communication and all the things, I

have become very passionate about

patient rights because yeah, it's gotten

that almost like provider feeling of just

implied consent or more so just telling you

what we're gonna do, that it's still a choice.

You can, regardless of if it's phrased to

you as a question or as what's going

to happen, you have the right to ask

question to, you have the right to say no. And that to me is something that really

needs to be brought to pe like patient's,

attentions, mom's attentions, anyone of,

I had a nursing instructor and this has

stuck with me for years in nursing school.

She always said, what are you doing and

why are you doing it? And to me that has stuck true professionally,

but also as a patient of what are you doing and why? And if you can't give

[00:48:00] me a reason why that to me, resonates, feels true. And isn't just giving me random

information so that I will agree that is not enough.

it's so essential people, have that

support, that education, that clarity, that request. Right. It's so, so important. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's something. Can you hear me okay? Yes, I can. Yes. Now I can.

Just one second.

Ashley, your story is incredible

and reminds me of this crisis. And I, I mean, I know that that's not, none of these, scenarios is necessarily

what you wanted to go through, but I'm

just so excited that you've been able to

turn your pain into power, that you've been

able to transform this [00:49:00] into this gift for the

patients that you will serve and providers

that you will influence.

It's just so exciting. Yeah, it definitely has me very excited for the future. it's hard, honestly. I mean, I'm trying to slow down a little bit in my

excitement because I have my two and a

half year old and my five month old who

I still wanna be honestly, you know, very

present with and enjoy these super young years.

But it also has me excited and kind of hard, honestly, to reign

in on where I wanna start because I have

such a vision of where I wanna go with this. Yeah. To figure out where I wanna

start and which area I wanna impact first. But to me, you know, originally I felt so sad, so disappointed,

like, why did this have to happen to me?

Like, I don't understand. Yeah. And then with my son all the challenges

of trying to figure out things during the

[00:50:00] pregnancy every time I would get excited

and an optimistic for this beautiful

successful home birth, something else

would come up in imaging or whatever

that posed the challenge of, well,

maybe it might not be the best spot.

And that's what I loved about my home birth

midwife, was that she was like, you know. I think sometimes home birth is

over-glorified and people think that it's

the only way to have a beautiful birth. And she's like, there is a time for the

hospital sometimes being the better

option or better place and home and

hospital births, can be beautiful with the

right people, the right team, the right plan.

and that to me really stuck with me

because I feel like a lot of times home

birth transfers aren't talked about a lot. They're viewed as failures. They are always presented a lot of times

to me in a way of a transfer equals

a negative experience or outcome. And that's [00:51:00] not how it has to be and I know

she's had a handful of transfers primarily,

That were not emergent, that were a lot

of times just from moms that were tired

and drained and just needed some pain

relief or just something extra to be able to

relax a little bit, to then have very beautiful

vaginal hospital bursts after transferring. and that to me, her sharing all those

stories, without being biased really stuck

with me and was comforting as a client

of hers, of, you know, she's had this

experience, she's had good, she's had

bad, you know, things sometimes happen.

I remember telling her before we decided

to transfer care, I remember her saying to her, I was like, you know, one of the biggest things is

that if something were to happen

emergently or anything at home, I was like. I know it's not the [00:52:00] definitive location. I was like, it gives me a lot

more comfort, honestly, because I know you will

handle that situation with calm poise

and information, and I'm not gonna be

left in silence freaking out because

no one's telling me what's going on.

Yeah, and that to me is another thing. Communication is so much, and I

understand that sometimes there's not

time in that exact moment to talk about

every single thing that's happening, but

that debriefing phase is very important. And that's something that honestly, if I

had after my daughter, there still would've

been a lot going on, but it would've

helped to have a provider come up to me and even just acknowledge

the fact of, I know that the outcome wasn't what she wanted

how are you feeling about that? Or, you know, these are the cascades of things that happened as to why it was the best [00:53:00] option. But, you know, are there any questions you have? Because that, that was my biggest thing from someone that has medical experience and everything, is I needed to physiologically, medically understand

what happened the labor pattern

and positioning and everything.

I had to, and I thankfully eventually was

able to like, piece it all together and

consult with, you know, other nurse

midwives and stuff to understand it

better and also diff what could have

been done to give me a better outcome. but that to me is how I needed to heal. I had to understand what happened.

I remember listening to a podcast, I don't remember who it was by, but that made a whole podcast about

the importance of debriefing after

traumatic

events

or even just potentially traumatic events

because what someone perceives as

traumatic, someone else might not and so

to even just acknowledge the fact that this

might not have been a good [00:54:00] experience,

how do you feel about that means so much?

Yeah. And that type of education is where I would

really like to go in the future educating

hospital systems or even just community birth wise. 'cause a lot of times, honestly, to me, I was like, you know, I both times I paid out of pocket

for my midwives and for hospital

births through insurance.

I was like, you know, but, and

I'm fortunate enough and in a place that

I was able to do that and it meant the

world to me, both times, my midwives and

extra support, they were worth every single penny. they were the ones who really were there. That listened to me, that was able to,

especially in that postpartum period,

do a lot of healing and just support

and sharing and processing that.

Unfortunately, either people that just

aren't open to the idea of home birth or

just don't really understand it or any, or,

you know, something along those lines. You [00:55:00] don't get that support postpartum. And I, yeah, to me, that post, that

postpartum period, that mental health

period, it can mean so much, especially for

people who have traumatic experiences.

It can be the difference between being

able to heal right away and be able to. Have that time, even if you're not fully

present, it can mean the difference between that. Yeah. Being comfortable versus

having severe depression, or even needing to be

admitted for thoughts of self harm. So that importance to me is another

focus that I would really like to work on

because it gets lost so much

not only

are you healing from major surgery, but

especially if you labored for hours, then your body

went through surgery, now you have this

brand new newborn that you have and

you take care of and it's, you are

like, I can't even focus on what

happened 'cause I just need to survive.

And yeah, it's [00:56:00] sad, exhausting,

and I feel like I missed so much. I look back on pictures and my

husband's like, what do you

mean you don't remember it? And I'm like, I don't remember it. Like there's the picture and there's a

little bit of me that remembers certain

moments, but I was just kind of there.

Whereas with my son, I feel

present, and it's an amazing, beautiful gift. there's just no words. You had a cute experience. You got to be present, wait for the birth

of your baby by cesarean and participate. That's just, it's awesome. It's absolutely life changing. I get it.

It's amazing. I had, one of the Facebook pages

I'm in, a c-section page for moms. There was a mom actually who posted, she's

like, listen, like I wanna have another baby. But my first two were c-sections. I don't think a provider will do a vaginal birth. Plus, for her own comfort reasons with risks and [00:57:00] stuff.

She's like, I think I'd rather

have another C-section. But she asked, has anyone had. A maternal assisted C-section. so I was like, I did and shared my pictures

and she, one, that was one of the things she said to me she didn't necessarily have any

traumatic experience, but she's like,

I just wanna feel like I was able to be

involved in the birth of one of my kids.

that resonates with me because, you know,

we have, you have your vaginal births and

majority of the time, as long as there's no

issues and you have a great, hospital birth

team, you can have a beautiful vaginal

birth where the providers just lets you kind of do your thing and are just there to support you.

they let you have your moment with

your baby and everything and it's great and beautiful. And even if that was one of my things, even before I

was offered my maternal assisted

C-section, I remember saying listen. I advocated, I had asked probably three

times about it, and most [00:58:00] both the times I had

gotten told it, it was mostly just that the first

one was an old, provider at the institution.

So like it did happen. It was more of a professional

courtesy type situation. not a lot of provider support to

support the desire, like the demand. I don't think a lot of providers are willing

to do these other than the one that did. So obviously she can't do however many,

and still do all her other work.

my biggest thing I advocate for was Alyssa. even if I can't participate by

doing the full blown maternal C-section. There is no reason why that baby can't

be handed to an OR nurse and then handed straight to

me as long as right, God willing, there are no complications.

that was the biggest thing I pushed for, and

that that is what I was never gonna let go was that moment. I was like, anything else I love? That was icing on the cake and extra. And [00:59:00] thankfully they

were willing to accommodate that and

honor everything that I had gone through. I love that, but I love that the part I was

not gonna let go was I need my baby.

I made that very clear every single visit and

every interaction the baby needs to be

mine because my daughter sat on my lap. they honored the delayed cord clamping. They honored that. Um, but she sat on my lap for the full

minute, I could hear her crying. I knew she was okay. She had great agar scores.

and I just remember I was like feeling

in that moment, like there is no

reason why she can't just come to me. There is no reason why I was like, they can do

their full quick assessment while she's sitting

there on my lap for a full minute because, I can't see her. I remember even after her, I was

like, they didn't even gimme why

my doula called it a Simba moment.

I was like, they didn't hold her up [01:00:00] during that minute so I could see her. I didn't see her until after they had, you know, let her sit for

a minute, clamped the cord and everything,

and then we're bringing her to the warmer. so I'm so sorry that was what I was

not letting go was I need my baby.

I was like, and if not, I need to know why. Yeah, and they gave you, and they, they gave you this option

of something even more incredible. Incredible. I'm so glad you claimed it. I'm so glad you did that because

I think you're gonna be able to

advocate for so many other women. It was, I think coming from a nursing

background, you're gonna be able to

advocate for so many providers as well.

It's so exciting. It was one of those things where every time

I've spoken with my U of N midwife since

I thank her every time and every time she

was like, it was all you advocated. Like this was all you. and every single time I turn it back on

her and I'm like, I did, I advocated, don't get me [01:01:00] wrong, but you are the

one who advocated for me because me

advocating for myself, can unfortunately only get so far.

Yeah. I was like, so the fact that she really took everything upon herself. I had asked a couple times, I'd asked her about. The first one they had done. And each time she was like, I don't

think we're really doing them. But, so, I mean, I didn't even, but come

the end of the pregnancy, I had even

stopped asking about them because

I was like, all right, they're not doing it.

I accepted that and was okay with that. but so I was like, you know, I didn't get put in this corner where like, I

made a last minute begging plea of like,

can I please have this, this type of C-section? she took it upon herself to reach out to the

surgeon and see if, you know, and explain the situation and how

we didn't qualify for our home birth anymore.

my, so to say, desperate, desperate way in which I

wanted my induction to go [01:02:00] and

all of the things. And yeah, her taking that on gave me hope. That's so beautiful. Hope that. You know, there are still people, there are still providers

open-minded enough willing

to be transformative and listen.

Because I mean, I, I also understand, I'm like, you know, burnout demand moral

distress and everything that's going on in the world of healthcare right now, it is, it can drain you quickly

of that human approach and empathy and everything. It can drain you so quickly, in the world of healthcare.

And that is definitely something I always acknowledge

to my providers, especially my home birth

midwife I appreciate and realize the care

you provide and the strain sometimes that it might. I might have on your family

I greatly appreciate, all the things that you do sometimes it's not the client's [01:03:00] job or anything to recognize that, I

think sometimes that gets lost and I think sometimes times acknowledging that

to a provider, can mean a lot to them.

sometimes when you acknowledge

that and are grateful for what they

have given you, that can go a long way. and there's been in various aspects of

my health, sometimes that I speak with

different providers and explain to them

different anxiety I have or why I might. I need or special accommodations or just

more time, like a slow moving pace, or let

me listen to my guided meditation tape

while certain things happen and explain

to them the situation and everything.

they have more appreciation for it, I

explain to them I'm, I say, listen, like I,

understand all of the things that go into this. I was like, and I don't wanna come

off as I had this one terrible, bad

[01:04:00] experience at this other institution, so I

deserve and demand this type of care. 'cause that it's, that's not the

approach to me that is right either.

I do believe that people that have traumatic

experiences in birth or any aspect of

healthcare deserve special accommodations. I also respect and appreciate. You can't always have every single thing

that you want for one reason or another. Well, whether it's just that we're not there

yet, in terms of evolving and transforming

care or whether it just legitimately

cannot be accommodated for sterility

reasons or whatever the reason may be.

I believe there's a better way and

that people with trauma and poor

experiences need extra accommodation. I was talking to my midwife

about this not too long ago. I was like, you know, when it, I was talking to

my sister about something and I remember

saying, I was like, you know, especially in

bigger pediatric hospitals and other [01:05:00] areas,

regardless if they're major into peds or not.

I was like, they have child life specialists. They make a lot of exceptions most of the

time in terms of allowing parents back with

their kids before surgeries parents can

stay until their child is anesthetized there's

no reason why if pediatrics can figure it

out that the world of adult medicine Yeah.

Can't, and she brought up a good point. She was like, I think it's because, the world

views adults as not being as susceptible

to trauma or better to cope with trauma

because they're adults and they can handle it. And it that it's just not true. And I was like, you know, but that resonated with me like a lot of times

it's like, oh, they're just being immature

or babies about certain

situations

we're equally

susceptible to trauma. there's, sometimes a bigger

component of minimizing trauma

in children, which don't get me wrong, is very [01:06:00] needed. but it's equally important to prevent that

initial trauma regardless of how old a

person is, because it impacts their life.

Absolutely. It impacts everything. And Absolutely. The fact that, you know, multiple people close to me are

like, you're a whole new person. it's not like it just ended after the first

couple weeks of having a newborn of that

little like newborn honeymoon period. Like my life has changed.

And while I still work through different

things and different trauma triggers

do come up or I think about different

things and I'm like, you know why? Like, I think I sometimes,

was it my husband was like. Sometimes you can be like

a pessimist or whatever. And I'm like, you know, I was like, when I

was younger, don't get me wrong, I kind

of always was like a negative Nancy.

I'm like, you know what? It's just gonna always be the bad outcome. But I've lost that. But in some ways kept it. And I just had an epiphany not too

long ago and I [01:07:00] was like, you know what? I think even during the pregnancy with

my son, when different things were

found, I always prepared for the worst.

I was like, that's just what's gonna

happen because that's just

what, that's what it's gonna be. And I was like, you know why I think I've had that thought process and it took me until now to

figure it out wasn't like, because that's what happened with my daughter. I prepared for the worst, had all these worst

fears and those are exactly what happened.

So no matter how much U of M and

their amazing team did for

me, Anytime something comes up, I

still am like, you know, it's just gonna

be the poor outcome because on and

off since then, have even just recently

spoken with a doctor's office and was

very easily and quickly dismissed

and treated improperly in my opinion.

very quickly transferred offices and

teams and have a brand new, wonderful

team of people that I'm working with. [01:08:00] And it's, you know, I had this great exp, I

had this horrible experience, then I had

this beautiful experience and then I went

right back to having a bad experience with

a different department and institution.

that forced me to advocate again for myself

and find this again beautiful team of people. And I remembered, I told my husband,

I was like, it should not be this hard. People should not have to fight this hard. And not everyone's going

to because it's hard. It is. It takes time to, you know, I spent an entire

day calling offices speaking to four different

institutions of options, things like that.

And it should, I'm like, it should not be this hard because

people need care and people deserve to be

treated with respect and compassion. And I was like, I guarantee you I won the most

annoying patient of the day award

in that office, but I [01:09:00] don't care. Absolutely. But to me, my terrible experience gave me that.

And for that, I'm, I am appreciative because it really made me

aware to sit there and say, I am not settle for anything

less than what makes me feel

comfortable and confident in my team. And. That's it. Even just that, that's it right there. That's it. such an impact on healing and Yeah, the feel like emotionally and

physiologically, you know, it's, yeah, my daughter, the smallest thing made

me feel like a terrible mom, a terrible wife.

That's made me so depressed. with my son it's like, all right, I take a deep breath, like

it's gonna be okay, we'll get through it. a whole new approach. And it's just jaw droppingly amazing. when he was born on my chest I sat

there, this was the right decision I [01:10:00] felt

all the feelings absolutely amazing.

I was nursing him during the

closure of my C-section, Amazing. It was just the most beautiful thing in the world. The anesthesia team was there,

but they didn't really bother me. They, anything I needed, they, I wanted

to be able to see my monitors. They made sure they were angled

so I can see them from the table.

they did not give

me medications unless they told me, until they

told me what they were. And again, it's coming from a little bit different of a standpoint. I had some experience with some of

the different medications and things

like that, but I was like, I want you to

tell me what you're giving me, what it

does, give me options with my daughter.

I remember them handing me

pills and they're like, here you go. I'm like, well, what is it? I was like, I'm not like, things like that. I didn't have a whole bunch of bleeding, but

they, initially, they were, it was more of a

precautionary, borderline bleeding [01:11:00] thing with

my daughter, I remember them asking for.

TXA and Pitocin and all the things and again, with my background, knowing what

they're for, I remember kind of freaking out. I was like, why? What is going on? no one said anything to me. by that

point I was so just kind of paralyzed I didn't even say

anything other than look at the

monitor and was like, am I okay?

whereas with my son, every

single thing was told to me and

it made me more comfortable. I felt I could trust them. And I was like, you know what? Even if whatever happens, it's going

to be okay 'cause it's going to be handled

better

while there will still be some

trauma that I would have to work through, it's not gonna

be anything like my last experience.

to me that was huge because again, I keep

going back to the fact of my daughter's

[01:12:00] birth was not physiologically, not clinically

super traumatic from my own interpretation. It was the treatment and Right. I think a lot of people that's

psychological abuse really. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think a lot of people are

like, think that people can only

suffer trauma if there's a negative

outcome physiologically or clinically.

And that's just not true. And, I have a lot of

things and a lot of ideas

that, Will they change my lifetime? Who knows? 'cause the world of medicine, I'm 30, but

the world of medicine is so hard to change. But I think more and more people are

starting to become more open-minded

and more in tune to change hopefully.

So we'll see where it goes. But to me right [01:13:00] now I wanna do a lot of work,

but it's just as important to share my story. 'cause I feel like it is happening in the US.. I feel like there have been like onesie, twosies, kind of like my situation where they're

being done but not really.

Yeah. and I don't know specifically what

the reasoning for that is. I don't know if it's just because there's

not a lot of providers willing to do

it, and there's not a, I know Dr. Cohen in the

Netherlands, like that's all he does primarily, right? I don't wanna say all right, because he does other work as well, but that's kinda what he is known for,

are these maternal assisted C-sections.

I don't know if it's just that the providers that are doing them here in the US have

the empathy and the compassion and

everything that they're willing to do them,

but they don't necessarily want it to be their life's work. I don't know what the

gap or the blockade is but, my point is they're being done.

They're just not being heard about. And I think, yeah, they're heard about [01:14:00] more that they are being done, unfortunately, after lots of

advocacy fighting searching for, and trauma for provider. And trauma and trauma. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of the people. It's, you know, unless you have trauma, you

don't get the special care.

Yeah. And a lot of times the special care can

prevent the trauma and that's it. Something I think I'm like, why did I have to have

this terrible experience to be able to now have for

various different things, biggest one, the birth of my

son, but why do I have to have this trauma to be able to

be then viewed from other aspects of care

as this person has trauma, they need this

care, this treatment, these exceptions.

because if they can be made,

because I have my trauma, then

they can be made for anyone. It's just that there's [01:15:00] less of a desire, in

my opinion, for them to be made. So it's like, you know, if we can do this and it's safe enough for

someone to have a support person during

ultrasounds, or a support person during

a procedure that's minor and you know,

whatnot, we just have to make sure that

the support person understands where

they can be and what they can do.

Or in this case, a giant amazing C-section. Yeah, it's if we can make exceptions and we can make things happen for those

with trauma, while they're greatly appreciated,

Then we can make it happen and it can be a normal, it's just that I feel like it makes people uncomfortable,

especially in the healthcare world.

It makes them uncomfortable of being more exposed more people kind of being

there of not have, you know, not having that, control. And I [01:16:00] think it's a big control that's what it was. I mean, for my pregnancy, that was the thing was like I needed

to feel like I had control. And I think a lot of times providers and healthcare systems and policies and

procedures, that's where the control lies.

there needs to be a big readjustment

and rebalancing of how

that all works because well Ashley thank God that you're coming onto

the scene because people, they need you. you're gonna be one of those

patient and nurse advocates

that changes it for the better. It's yeah. I So exciting.

I hope so. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for taking the time. To tell us your story in all of

its detail is so fascinating. Yes. We would love to, put some links up

so people can, connect with you. Are you open to that? most certainly. So how will people find you online?

Yeah, so kind of a side [01:17:00] note as not part of this, but, so I actually was honestly just about to

make a first post for my Instagram

page my plan is to call it

Birth On Her Terms. Beautiful, beautiful.

And my plan is to start sharing post by post here and there

when I can with the kids of my.

Starting with my birth story of my

son, then hopefully going back

and talking a little bit then about the balance of

care and basically everything we talked

about over the course of a few posts.

I plan to start sharing a lot of

Cohen stuff from the Netherlands. He's doing a lot of amazing research.

It's so cool. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people in the US

don't really know much about him unless

you go searching on a journey like

I have about knowing this is

being done in other places. I am very, very excited and

hoping to get a lot of followers

and support on that.

Thank you so much and

thank you so much for sharing.

it's been a pleasure. Share my story. [01:18:00] I'm so glad you did.

It's gonna be well received. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a fantastic day. Thank you. You too. bye. Bye.