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Welcome to your weekly dose of The Psychedelic Psychologist. In this episode we meet Kevin, who shares a unique vantage point as a professional physicist, immediately setting our minds and hearts at ease by sharing how psychedelic physics can be.
He describes the merger of science and spirituality from his perspective. Providing us a colorful story and practical lessons when exploring psychedelics. Specifically, the value of incrementally exploring these medicines and how to balance intentional use.
Kevin talks about the vast spectrum that psychedelics provide him and offers the question "do we know anything?"
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook
Healingsousllc.com
The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
Take a moment and close your
eyes, taking a deeper step
inside your internal process,
finding your breath, finding the
space between moments of doing and
moments of not doing breathing in.
And breathing out, expanding
the opportunity to be at rest,
finding the art of doing, not doing
breathing in and breathing out,
extending the present moment moments.
With each breath in
and with each breath out, exploring
this active process of doing, not doing,
feeling the nuance, the
subtle shifts, the grounding.
And the peace that comes over you
breathing in and breathing out.
And before we go ahead and start our
doing for the day or the not doing for
the evening, I give yourself a moment
to gather your thoughts, scan your body.
And check in with your emotional heart.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today's podcast.
You're going to hear from one of my
guests, David, who has a wonderful
story colored with a historical
and present moment experience.
We're going to talk everything
psychedelics, David.
It's good to see you.
It's good to hear you.
How are you coming in today?
Well, thank you.
And likewise, good to see you, Ryan.
Let's see right here.
It's the, sun's just coming up
where I am., it's a beautiful day.
It's the temperatures are really pleasant.
I'm it's just a great day to be alive.
I love that.
It's a great day to be alive.
Would you say that this beautiful day,
that you're awakening to has anything
to do with the work you're doing with
psychedelics, with the experiences you're
exploring in your own personal healing?
I guess I'm gonna tell, as quickly
as I can on sort of a life story arc.
I love it., so I'm a
professional physicist.
Modern physics is a psychedelic endeavor.
For me, at least the way, the way things
have been, all my life because, quantum
mechanics, general relativity, all
these things really are mind bending
in and it, it kind of echoes in for
me, at least a lot of the ways that
the psychedelic experience is that
suddenly, if you take it seriously,
suddenly there's some different
perspective that kind of drops on my head.
And, , so , first experience.
So I, yeah, I went to college.
I went to a nice college.
I went to graduate school , had a friend
who I know from, freshman chemistry.
And then, in graduate school
we were housemates and , he's a
chemist and he was the one who
said, Hey, there's this new thing.
Have you ever heard of these mushrooms?
and so he had, he had some philosophies,
some dried philosophies, velocities, and.
That was, yeah.
So, you know, he shared them
with me and that was, that was
my first introduction directly.
And it was exciting.
It was different.
It was, I think I was already at
that point pretty open about because
of the, the, the physics study.
I was already very opens idea that,
Hey, what your mind tells you, what
your eyes and, don't believe your
eyes and your ears believe the math.
And, Psychedelics kind of blew
away the eyes in the ears.
So it was like it not, not necessarily
that that experience is truth, but that
it, it, forces a wider perspective on
what could the, I, you know, what could
ordinary consciousness really, you know,
how could you interpret what's really
going on, you know, and very deeply
in, in all the way down to who am I?
Why is it.
It feels like when I'm walking down the
street, I feel like this pair of eyes
with a body kind of tangling below as,
as the body does the walking thing and,
you know, all, all consciousness, all
that stuff that, that just became really
interesting to me., I also remember
another very early influence was, I
like to hang out at use bookstores.
, and I found a copy of Astan gr book.
which one was it?
I think it was called
realms of the unconscious.
So there was a lot of material
there about,, perinatal experience,
past life regression, things that
are hard to explain in what most
people think of as ordinary physics,
but the stuff that I was studying.
I was a, I was a student
of physics at the time.
It didn't seem totally crazy.
It was, , the idea that, that well
time, isn't what you think it is, is
that's okay., we can work with that.
So can you tell me a little bit real quick
and I apologize for stepping on your toes.
Go ahead.
Can you tell me about the confluence and
the merging of your physics background
and this awakening and recognition
and awareness of such as Stan's work
and different realms of consciousness.
How do those merge for you?
It's not so much the emerge for me.
It's that?, the experience
really challenges really pushes.
The envelope of, how are my beliefs and my
expectations, you know, it's just becoming
aware of beliefs and expectations.
And then that in turn, I think opens me
up , I'm sitting on a chair in front of
the table, I'm talking at an image on.
Computer screen, how much of that
is just my brain doing what a human
brain is supposed to, and then,
you know, relaying that that's
really different from some kind of.
,what I think is reality in a
bigger picture, which is kinda
what physics is always looking for.
Physics, you know, physicists wanna
know what is the theory of everything?
What do, what the particles mean?
What do you know?
Are you, are you better off thinking
about, uh, quantum field theory?
Are you better off thinking about
multidimensions what's the strength?
What's you?
Know's the strength theory stuff.
And these are all just ways of
thinking about who I am and.
How, how am I, am I
separate from the universe?
Am I something other than what
the universe is?, who is God?
You know, the, I, I grew up in a very
religious family and there was definitely
in my family and my, my parents.
There's definitely an expectation that,
well, when you die, if you're good,
you get to see this guy named Jesus,
and he's gonna look at you and he is
gonna, you know, if you were good, Jesus
is gonna say, And I know that was a
very real expectation for my parents.
And, it didn't fit for me, I don't, you
know, it's not that I, how to say it.
It's like it didn't
hang together in a way.
That I was willing to bet my life
on it, me, it takes something, it
takes something a little bit more,
something a lot deeper to that.
I feel like I can rely on that.
I'm whatever I am.
I am okay.
Even if I'm deaf, . That's a
wonderfully surrendering conversation.
That's a courageous and
noble vantage point.
When you reconcile the stories that
your mother and father provided you,
how are you making sense of that today
in the comfort of all that you know,
and all that you've been experiencing?
Well,
I think so for me, the main thing is
to reimagine, re understand the words.
So, for my religious tradition,
there is a profession of faith
that begins, I believe in God.
and let's start with that first.
Well, the is pretty E you
know, I, you know, what is I,
what does it mean to believe?
and I used to think
about, and I think most.
People in a Christian tradition, think
about belief as intellectual ascent.
Like yeah, you got that one.
Right?
And I, that, isn't what, at least
in that context, in the context of a
profession of faith, that just is not
what I, the way I understand it, the
way I understand it, I believe is it's
more, I, I put my faith in that there is
something called that is okay to call God.
It's not necessarily.
I mean, and, and I also, we
have , a really big picture
of how big the universe is.
You know, universe is
over 13 billion years old.
It's 44 billion light years, at least
just the part we can see across.
So, , an old man in the sky
floating around with a big white
beard and a, and a flowing robe.
Just isn't gonna cut it for that anymore.
So, Yeah, there there, I believe in God.
I believe that there is
a, there is a creation.
It's just you, you know, the, the
traditions have beautiful pictures.
It's just that don't rely on the pictures.
find a way to find a way to blow up
the pictures so that I can get behind.
And never really expect to
meet a DD face, face to face.
Does a DD really have a face?
I think I'm looking at a
DD right now on my screen.
, your picture, not mine.
maybe both.
Actually both is probably good picture.
Yes.
Well that's Ottman Braman, right?
And the Hindu called?
Yes.
It's.
Yeah.
Yes.
It.
Thank you for sharing that.
It it's also the holy Trinity.
Exactly.
It's this psychedelic work for me.
And I'm hearing it echo from you.
Exploded the doors of everything
merging together, the ancient
religions, the spiritual contexts,
the physics, the physics that
you are so eloquently versed in.
They've now become this caldron, this
rich caldron for psychedelic work.
Are they not?
Yeah.
And here's this human me.
Who's trying to arrange it in a way that.
Feels right.
, and especially when we talk about
integration, for me, I guess because
of the arc of my experience, I don't,
I, I've never done a thing, like take
psychedelics at a party or a rave or
music festival or something like that.
That seems sacrilegious a and
as, as well as dangerous, I don't
like dangerous things that much.
So.
Definitely the intention
there of exploration and
integration is always there.
Even during the experience.
Can you tell me a little bit
about that, I appreciate your
reverence to the medicines.
How do you prepare yourself in
the area and the arena of walking
in and when do you know it's.
To use the medicines for exploration.
That's a great question.
so ever since my housemate, you
know, brought home the, the baggy
with dried mushrooms in it, after
that, I went back to the bookstore
and I got a book about how to grow
mushrooms and, you know, got APO print.
And man, that was hard.
It was, it was really hard
to grow mushrooms rather than
mold and other nasty stuff.
That's one of the reasons.
So one of the things that emerged
from that was I, to me, it
feels like I have a relationship
with the mushrooms themselves.
If I do things right, the MyUM
will grow, it will colonize.
And when it's ready, it will present
some fruits and these fruits pop
up and they say, Hey, let's play.
We wanna tell you something.
And, and I realize, as far as the
experience goes, that's, that's a big
guide, is that, the mushrooms grow,
I think also for me, the experience
of cultivating them, of inviting
them that way and kind of a much more
extended period of time than just,
Hey, the dealer happens to have a
new batch and I can go down and, you
know, plunk down some money for it.
That is really D.
There's a symbiotic relationship that you
are inviting in and they are accepting
an invitation and you are accepting
their wisdom and sacred knowledge.
Absolutely it's not just the
wisdom that's contained within the
fruiting bodies of a particular
mushroom it's, it's a wisdom that.
Infuses and , uh, makes
the universe happen.
It's just getting access to it.
Yeah.
That access is so critical and
trusting and being open to the access
is what I'm also hearing you say.
Yes.
How do you present yourself to be
open to the information and what,
knowing my love affair to integration?
What is the.
Information that you're able to digest.
And how do you integrate?
So I have, a longstanding meditation
practice, so, , studied with
a teacher in, in a lineage.,
That the main thing.
I'm aware of that I learned from that is
the ability to just slow down enough to
listen and not necessarily not necessarily
translate what I'm hearing into language.
So that, that makes it, we're using
language to communicate right now.
And that makes it a little bit difficult.
I, I think the word is ineffable, right?
So you, there's no way that human words
or syntax will express what's going
on, but I can accept that something is
going on, even though I may not be able
to make my mouth say the words for.
The embodied feeling is, yeah.
Exposed.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you trust that emotion body to give
you information from your experience.
I trust that in a way that,
so I'm, I'm the kind of person
you, you probably already know.
I'm the kind of person who
thinks through everything and.
Spreadsheets, calculations, high level
algorithms, all that kind of stuff,
but doesn't get me where the real
wisdom from the psychedelics gets me.
And, the way I understand integration
is, well, they do have to, at some
point line up it's, it's not good.
If the experience says one says, do one
thing and all the cognitive process.
I have in my head says, do something else.
That's, that's a bad situation.
I mean that, that's
basically an indicator.
Hey, maybe do nothing for now.
Just sit on this and see if one or the,
you know, see if either I, I can mentally
think of something a different way to a
different perspective or maybe the message
changes and that's, but yeah, I it's it's
I believe that it served me well., it's
helped me overcome, a lot of challenges.
You know, from, from childhood, from
I hear emotion coming up right now.
What's the emotion you're asking about
the emotion right now is, is, yes, as I
I'm listening to you and hearing it's awe
it's awe, and it's not awe at who I am.
It's awe around who I
can be in the universe.
It, it, it's just astonishing really.
I feel astonished that
so much is possible.
That's really wonderfully said.
Do you find yourself being able to, as
you just were talking about integrating
that into practical reality into this
material world, as you are in awe, what
are ways you see yourself expressing
gratitude to this awe, this universe,
this opportunity to be in this body?
It's a huge help for
practices like compassion.
, recognizing, I mean, there are
a lot of things in this world.
I do not like, I, I am not happy
with a lot of people's behavior.,
especially people's behavior can be
really disappointing in many ways.
And,
Yeah.
What I'm seeing is a little bubble
of, my head is finite, right.
So it can only hold a
little bit of perspective.
And there is a bigger perspective
where all this it really is.
Okay.
Right.
Even though people are being killed.
People are being abused in horrible.
That's exactly right.
And sometimes that's the
devil's advocacy of this work.
It opens up this remarkable compassion
and if we don't filter it or don't
acknowledge the fact that some of the
tragedies and suffering are out of
our control, it can de rehabilitate.
A psychedelic Explorer to the point
where I know I personally have been there
where you have to kind of shut it off.
So you're not overly exposed to
the trauma, the tragedies and the
suffering of the world that is at
the hands of other human beings.
Oh, absolutely.
And, and I'm a total advocate of, I
mean, I've heard among my friends.
, I've heard people say, Hey, if
you're gonna do psychedelics, you
know, do the heroic dose first.
So it has the most impact.
I am not me more about that.
I've I've, I've, I've heard that as well.
What, what have you gleamed
from that information?
Because it might be necessary to
put the public service announcement
in prior to saying any of this.
I think so, at least based on what
I've experienced, I don't think
that's a good idea for most people.
I concur.
. And to get.
To the point of the heroic dose of
mushrooms or even IASA, I, I wouldn't
encourage anyone to dive into the Peruvian
jungle for seven days for the first
experience, either not because I'm a
prudent psychedelic Explorer, but rather
it it's okay to do it incrementally.
There's all the time in the world
to explore these experiences.
I.
the story is that what I found was that
even very low doses, so dosing to the
point of just barely being aware of,
being aware that, that the medicine is
taking effect already, especially if it's
combined with a good music track or with
meditation, or, A, a visual, a Mandela,
uh, it, it really brings up a lot of
emotions that are, that are challenging.
And I think that's something that, it,
it, I, I think of that as kind of like
a, being able to deal with that as like
a muscle that, that needs to grow., if
it hasn't, if my awareness of emotion
hasn't been challenged for a long time,
it's not a good idea to think that, okay,
I can scale the, the mountain, maybe
try hill first and see how that goes.
That feels right to me.
That definitely feels right to me.
Tell me a little bit about what you're
actively integrating right now as you're
walking and as we're connecting today,
what's percolating on your integration
process and your psychedelic exploration.
, two major things, well, major everything's
major, but, So one is, is, is recent
experiences, especially, one very
unexpected experience where I became
my father and, my father's life.
My life has been really cushy
compared to my father's.
His was, he had war experiences
that, literally killed everybody
else in his, in his group.
So he's, he's a sole survivor,
and very traumatized and.
It was really interesting and unexpected
to suddenly be, you know, suddenly become
him , I had his hands, I had his body,
and that was, as I say, it was unexpected.
And it's a challenge to stop
myself from trying to make
some kind of meaning out of it.
Just let be what it is.
That's important too, because.
Had to have been, as you have said earlier
words, don't give it service or justice.
Mm-hmm so towards, and then
looking towards the future.
explore friendships and develop a
circle of friends who are also psychs
and, among that group, everybody else
participates in a, an iowaska church,
and I'm, I've been invited many times.
And I said, I just didn't feel ready.
And, I felt like , I'm the mushroom guy.
I don't do this other stuff.
And,, Something shifted.
And so now I'm ready.
So I, the next week that there
will be a ceremony and I will
participate in the ceremony.
That will be a new, a
new territory for me.
What do you need to acknowledge before
that ceremony in that new territory?
What will be some active exercises
you'll partake in before.
Well, short term is, is the diet.
So don't eat anything.
I don't wanna see again.
and , but that's just, you know,
kinda the physical side of it.
The, the emotional part is, especially
because this will be a, a much larger
group than I've ever experienced
before in a psychedelic event.
So.
I'm preparing myself for a
different kind of experience
where the medicine is active.
The group dynamics are active.,
some people will be thrashing and
crying as they, , as things come
up for them and other people will
be laughing and, , there will be an
actual shaman around to care for us.
And,, I'm expecting that that is gonna
be a really different experience.
So that releasing my, releasing my
sense of safety to the group, to the,
to the shaman, who's the leader there.
And, and I'm actually
looking forward to it.
What you're talking about, releasing your.
Safety to the shaman and to the group.
I don't think a lot of people
acknowledge such as you're doing
with so much integrity, knowing that
there is going to be a lot going on
there's emotional energy, physical
energy, and spiritual energy that, in
and of itself is quite an experience.
And so listening to you, I'm
reassured that you understand the
magnitude of that surrendering aspect.
Yeah.
In fact for me, I, I understand the
whole choice to say yes to that.
Invitation is an active surrender.
I love it.
I love everything about that.
We'll have plenty to talk about
it, I think, in the near future.
Well, I'm sure we will.
bring me up to speed with what do you owe.
The world of psychedelics.
Tell me with all of this amazing
information, these spiritual experiences,
David, what do you owe the medicine
mushrooms, the sacraments that you carry?
It's definitely a lot of
real psychological healing
that I wasn't really.
It wasn't my objective.
, but then once, I realized the
healing, it, it made me look back
and realized just how, , just how
limited my perspective had been.
So let me put flesh
that out a little bit.
, as I said, my father had been a prisoner
of war and, but actually both my parents.
Suffered the effects of, bombing
invasion, combat, captivity,
starvation, all those things.
And, so for me, the, the acting
out of that, that I learned from
my parents just seemed very normal.
, there's nothing to challenge., other
than occasionally, somebody would say,
why are you getting so angry about this?
Why are you yelling?
And,, especially it became really
difficult in my married relationship
that looking back, I can see that, man.
I, I lived on an emotional hair trigger.
I.
If, I felt like my wife insulted
me or belittled me in some way,
I had to fix that right away.
And the way to fix it was to yell
at her , and demand that she APO you
know, that, that kind of behavior.
And, when that went away.
When I was able to see that
what she was doing, that the
behavior that was triggering me,
it wasn't an attempt to hurt me.
It was, it was her own attempt
to deal with her own issues.
And, she was, she was really
trying to protect herself.
She wasn't trying to hurt me when
that really got deep enough, the,
the, the, the fits the raging
fits., I, I mean, it's, it's gone.
I mean, I, I won't say that nobody
can make me yell or, or get
really upset, but the threshold
is orders of magnitude higher now.
And sure.
I, I can't think of any time,
in recent years that I've really
lost it the way I used to lose it.
I used to get a feeling of,
this is when I was triggered.
So this is be, in this long,
this couple decades long of no
psychedelics, no, no psychotropic
materials at all, other than caffeine.
, I used to have this feeling.
I, I could get triggered by something that
felt like a personal insult or a slight.
and this is for several decades.
And it was also, it was, I think it
was also acting out what I learned
from my parents' behavior growing up
that, I would have these, I would have
this fit of anger, this fit of hurt.
And what I felt was in my chest,
this gnawing other worldly presence
that I had no control over.
And it just demanded
that I yell and rage and.
and it, and it really feels
embarrassing to look back at it.
It's like, did I really do that?
And yeah, I really did it.
And worse than that, I had no
idea that that wasn't normal.
I had no idea, no appreciation that
there was a way to not behave that way.
And when I resumed my.
Psycho not.
Uh, so my explorations and it, and
also meditation helped a little bit,
but not didn't, it didn't get anywhere
near as deep as the medicine that.
I can't explain exactly how it was, but
that trigger just didn't happen anymore.
, and I, I had a different perspective.
I, I knew that, the person triggering
me, especially if it was, my spouse was
not trying to hurt me, was not attacking
me, that I didn't need to defend myself,
that it was just behavior that the other
person was doing for whatever their, his,
his, you know, their, their personal.
Was, and, that is, that is something
I am profoundly grateful for, , being,
having that lifted that need to
protect myself by raging, by acting out.
Yeah.
That is, that , that would've been worth
failing a drug test or two getting fired.
Well, and.
Just the acknowledgement of the
behind the scenes work that these
medicines can do for an individual.
I I'm hearing it.
Echo at a decibel level, that is just so
profoundly healing, this idea that it's
so under the surface and just working
its way into your cellular system,
into your nervous system, and then you
responding in accordance to that healing.
It's quite a beautiful expression.
Thank you.
What are you doing to walk gently
with yourself on the Eve of a
beautiful ceremony coming up
and doing this work and walking.
David, how will you
interface with the medicine?
When will, you know, it's appropriate
when do you know to put it down?
So for me right now, a lot of emphasis
on community, I, I, I'm going to
the ceremony, not primarily for
the, the medicine, but primarily for
the community and to learn how, how
larger communities can interact and.
I my, my highest hope for the
medicine and the support each other.
That's my highest hope.
Thank you,
how does David provide
gentleness to themselves?
Well, this interaction with you,
Brian right now is definitely one
piece of that., Exchanging with
someone who understands how big this
process can be, how big the trans
personal transformations can be.
I hate the word validation, cuz it
sounds like a parking ticket, but,
it's it re how about reinforces?
It reinforces my belief that,
yeah, this is the right path.
This is, this is something that I really
need and I don't know what it is that I.
In the end of it.
That's humbling.
Just accept that.
That is so humbling.
I don't know what I need, but I will
accept it when it, when it arrives.
That's a breath of fresh air.
It's a lot, isn't it?
It sure is.