Chris Voss's definitive playbook for any negotiation situation, by the FBI's former lead hostage negotiator. After a stint policing the rough streets of Kansas City, Missouri, Chris Voss joined the FBI, where his career as a kidnapping negotiator brought him face-to-face with bank robbers, gang leaders, and terrorists. Never Split the Difference takes you inside his world of high-stakes negotiations, revealing the nine key principles that helped Voss and his colleagues succeed when it mattered the most - when people's lives were at stake.
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Mike Parsons: [00:00:00] And welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 169. I'm your co-host Mike Parsons. And as always. I'm joined by man who never splits the difference. It's Mr. Mark Pearson. Freeland. Good morning, mark.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Hey, good morning, Mike is another exciting episode number 169 that you and I are digging into with our listeners.
And as a reminder, we're in the third episode of our most recent mindsets series.
Mike Parsons: Mate, we are deep into the mindset reconfiguration mode, and I think we're about to unleash a, some serious mindset voodoo today.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, it, Buddha is certainly one way of putting it today. Listeners, we are digging in number 169 into Chris Voss.
Voss is never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended on it. Mike, this is a book. I've been aware of prior to digging into for the moonshot show, as I [00:01:00] even utilized some of the tactics and lessons for projects that we had, I think maybe a year and a half ago, a couple of years ago.
Some things it did. It totally worked. And yeah,
Mike Parsons: I think we do want to say one thing though, just quickly before all of our moonshot is, think, what are we doing? A show on negotiation for that sounds a bit cheap and nasty. I think we got a, we've got to say, Hey, before you press star. Give this a go try it out because never split the difference may be about negotiation, but I think it's about a much more than negotiation.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Isn't a map. Yeah, I totally agree. I think where we've seen already within our mindset series, starting with mark, Manson's the subtle art of not giving them. If you want to find out what that whistle is, just go and listen to the show. We learned about the idea of values and meaning didn't we. And last week show with Robert Green, the 48 laws of power.
[00:02:00] It was about the idea of ownership control and the reality that you might have with the world. So already we're starting to build these essential building blocks. Of mindset with Chris Voss never split the difference like you say. Yeah, it is on paper, a book about negotiating and understanding from a genuine FBI hostage, negotiator, new ways to approach, maybe difficult conversations.
I think where you and I are seeing the value in Chris Voss in never split. The difference is actually the elemental values that exist with. Honing and cultivating a good skill in communication, talking to one another, in order to understand the core principle or the core vision of the other person in order to both come out with a fair results.
Wouldn't you
Mike Parsons: say? Yeah. And we have learned. It's very important. When you're trying to agree something with a counter party, [00:03:00] that there is a true fairness and equity in the agreement, because if it is unfair, then you know, down the track, the counterparty who didn't get a fair deal is not going to live up to the deal.
Anyway, they're going to try and pull out of the deal. If you push beyond what might be considered negotiation tactics, and they're pretty good tactics. And he was an FBI hostage negotiator. We're getting good quality tactics here. I think beyond the idea of negotiation, what it really is it's about alignment and connection with the people around you.
It's about agreeing fair terms to work together to a mutual outcome so we can have. Success for each other, for ourselves and for the mission as a whole. In fact, what Chris Voss makes the case for is life is just one entire negotiation. And today on our show, we're going to get [00:04:00] right into it. And mark, there's so many tactics that we're going to go through on the show.
So you'll be able to get better agreements better. Negotiations with your peers, your colleagues, perhaps even your better half. So mark, where do we want to start this adventure with?
Mark Pearson Freeland: One of the main ways that some of our listeners could be have awareness or knowledge of Chris Voss is actually through one of the platforms that he's on.
So obviously he's got his book, never split the difference that's already out there, but he also has, what's called a master. That's available online and most last for those listeners who aren't aware, it's a great online platform with many different, a huge catalog, huge library of well-known individuals breaking down their skills into easy to digest and bite sized pieces of information.
So there's a great platform called masterclass. We'll put a link into the show notes in case you want to go and check it out. Chris Voss has created a class all about negotiation [00:05:00] based on his book. Never split the difference. So what I thought Mike would be a quite nice introduction to Chris Voss as well as his way of thinking is actually to hear from the trailer of masterclass.
So this is the trailer for masterclass and Chris Voss is class on negotiator.
Mike Parsons: Everything in life is a negotiation. When you cross the street is a negotiation. Getting your coffee at Starbucks is in negotiation. You probably is free to seven negotiations every single day. Do a life could be in a completely different place just by improving how you negotiate.
Here's our working around the time. The deadline for execution has passed us now to help break down the investigation, FBI special agent hostage negotiators. My role is. Negotiator was to connect authentically with the victim's family, and with the hostage taker, everybody really deserves to have somebody hear what they have to say in my masterclass.
I'm going to give you all the strategies and tactics that I. [00:06:00] It was one of the top hostage negotiators in the war. You're going to learn everything from bargaining to reading body language, to the neuroscience that you can use to literally bend people's reality. Negotiation is letting the other side have your way.
So mirroring creates the opportunity for them actually to present you with your deal only they thought it was their idea. It's just a simple repetition of the. One to three words of what somebody said, we've got the actual recording, going to chase Manhattan, bank robbery, hostage, taking we've got a van out here, know anything about it.
We chased your driver away. My training was Amir and the bank robber started blurting out stuff. He had no intention of saying people love to be married. They love to be encouraged to go on
these skills, help you improve. Your life. Sometimes people say to me, these tools are just manipulation. It's about win, lose. That is not the case. Great negotiation is about great collaboration. Why [00:07:00] does it matter to you? You should get better negotiation because however you life is that you can do better.
I'm Chris Voss, and this is my
Mark Pearson Freeland: masterclass.
Mike Parsons: That was a bit of a pump up I'd might passes. And this is moonshots. That's how we should
Mark Pearson Freeland: introduce the show from now on oh
Mike Parsons: yeah, let's do a re-edit. So mark here, what? I'm hearing like a key thing that jumped out to me, great, a great collaboration, big theme of what he's talking about.
And I love how he specifically goes after. This is not about win, lose. This is about win-win. This is about great collaboration. I think, looking at this a bit differently, he's giving us just the means to articulate ourselves and understand the person that we are working with coming out to a mutually beneficial agreement.
All of the tactics that we're going to break down in this show are just a means of doing that. So I think if we get over [00:08:00] how we might. Presumed negotiation. And these sort of, maybe people think of them a bit as like sales tactics. Actually this is about very universal themes of of the moonshots model.
It's about empathy, collaboration understanding the people around you. And these are just means to do let me make the argument for you, Matt. You don't turn up to business just where. A pair of shorts, no shoes, and no top, you put on nice clothes that reflect the person you want to be. So surely that's not seen as some sort of cheap sales trick.
No, you just want to look good and look professional. So why wouldn't you in your conversation, techniques use professional techniques that help you to understand the person that you're talking with to collaborate with them and to get a great outcome. To me, it's just the same thing. What.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think it's reflecting the theme that we found within this mast within this mindset series, Mike, [00:09:00] which is we are learning these let's call them tactics or at least ways of thinking that we don't spend enough time really learning or digging into before going out and giving it a go.
As you were just saying, You don't end up in a boardroom without shorts or without a shirt or sandals on, maybe just
Mike Parsons: close the deal. I don't know, but you know what I
Mark Pearson Freeland: do because you go in a little bit more prepared and where I think Chris Voss, his book never split. The difference comes in is it is preparing us to have better conversations in order to reach that fair or mutual outcome where the procession from both sides is positive and therefore there's no animosity or frustration going forward.
I would argue. None of us really have the opportunity to spend a lot of time on improving our let's call it communication strategy. Prior to actually picking up a book or picking up a masterclass and diving in deep, these aren't skills that are [00:10:00] necessarily taught to us early in our careers or our lives.
And I think that's a missed opportunity. Isn't it much like with Mark Manson? And the idea of understanding our values. That's not something that we spend a lot of time on, and I think the same is true here. Whether you call it negotiation or let's just call it communication. Exactly. It's not something that we really spend time on.
And I think that's where Chris Voss, his book really fits into the moonshots.
Mike Parsons: I think, yes, I'm visualizing that library right now. It's going to get quite big just by the way. There's 170 books in there so far. So I think that sounds like a pretty good library. I think. So now that we've set that bigger frame.
I think we've got four different techniques coming up in the show, whether it's tactical empathy, value proposition, holding attention, mirroring, we're going to explain how you can use the. To understand, to connect and to collaborate with the people that are around you in your professional or your purpose, personal life.
It's all in front of [00:11:00] you here on the moonshot show, but I'll tell you who else is getting in the conversation and that's our members. Mark. I think we are just so grateful for their continued support. It's becoming quite a long list and that's a good thing because if we have 50,000 lists, We still got about another 49,900 to go to become.
But Matt let's tip the hat. Let's let's do the roll call for our Patreon members.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Absolutely. I'm starting to see new faces every single week. So patrial members. Thank you for joining us as part of the moonshots family, and please everybody give a standup elevation to Bob Niles, John Terry Brighty and Nile module in Ken Dietmar, Tom Byron, mark and margin, Conner, Rodrigo, Yasmeen, and spaceman.
Daniella LEAs are said, Maria, Paul Berg and Kalman. Mike, when we get closer to that 50,000, I think we're going to have to dedicate an entire show, just to read out the members' names [00:12:00] already. We take care of a good proportion of each show calling on our favorite individuals. So everybody thank you.
Here's your lunar power dose of thanks and good karma. Thank you for helping us keep the moonshots lights.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. And just to explain why we really need your membership. Just so you all understand, we pay 24 us dollars a month for our transcription software. So over the course of a year, It's over $250 just for our transcription software.
And then we have all our podcast hosting software, which is not cheap either, which is actually more than this because we have so many listeners and all of these costs are what your membership goes to support and help us to provide this show to you. So if you're enjoying the show, as you're listening, just jump over to patriarchy, become a member.
It's literally it's one question. For a [00:13:00] whole month of membership in the moonshots podcast. And when you become a member of moonshots, you also get access to the moonshots master series and we just published one of
Mark Pearson Freeland: those. Then we mark, we did, we were in fact, we about to just publish a brand new show. Oh no, it is live in fact today on all about finding your purpose.
Mike. Is the perfect connection. I think, to the series that we're currently looking into, isn't it on mindset, finding a purpose. We got lessons around eco guy. We've got clips from Kyle Maynard, OD Elizabeth Gilbert, Simon Sineck that show. And master series was pretty enormous.
Mike Parsons: It was pretty enormous.
I would agree. And don't forget, it's not just a finding your purpose. We've done communication circle of influence habits, 90 minute master classes, where we bring together the world's best thinkers. We decode them. You get lots of show notes and frameworks and templates, and all of that is [00:14:00] available to you.
If you become. Member. So head over to moonshots.io, click on the big member button, jump on and be part of it. Join the conversation. We would love you to be there to now. Ma are you ready? Are you ready to explore what tactical empathy looks like and feels like, are you ready?
Mark Pearson Freeland: This is the broad appeal of the book, isn't it?
As Chris Voss would break down, this is one of the core columns or DNA essentials of his book. Never split the difference. Mike, without any further ado, let's hear from Chris Voss, introduce us to what he calls tactical.
Mike Parsons: So what do you do if you're armed with this tactical empathy from hostage negotiation, after you leave the FBI and you're looking for gainful employment, how do you find a real job?
Hey, write a book.
I wrote the book, never split the difference with Chris Voss and Brandon Voss about applying the tactical empathy from hostage negotiation to the bullies and the liars that we encounter every day to the bad, the [00:15:00] mad and the sad we run into in our jobs and our social interactions at a family gathering.
At the breakfast table, I saw a meme recently. I thought it was really fun. It said, this parenting is really wearing me out. I think I'll try something less stressful, like being a hostage, negotiator,
tactical, empathy, weapons, grade empathy. Did you ever imagine hearing those two words combined in the same sentence? In never split the difference. We define tactical empathy is simply taking an inventory of the perspective of the person you're talking to the address of the adversary of the counterpart, especially the parts that we don't like, and then telling them what it is.
Describe it back to them. Calmly, no denials,
Mark Pearson Freeland: no disagreements,
Mike Parsons: calmly tactical emphasis. Works, because we all possess this human nature. Wire works on a human nature level. We've got something in our [00:16:00] brains called the limbic system. Everybody has had its components of the brain. It doesn't matter what your gender, your ethnicity, or where you grew up.
You have Olympic system and you, everyone has that. That's the reason every hostage negotiation team in the world from Baghdad to Bogota to Boston uses the same skills. Because it's human nature wiring that we all possess. Now that's at short time. It only works with people only works with people yet.
Empathy is, has just been such a big part of our discovery doing the show together, right?
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. It is arguably one of the biggest ideas or the kind of beating heart, so to speak of Chris's book. And in fact, I'll just read out Mike, the way that he describes it is it brings your attention. To both the emotional obstacles and the potential pathways to getting an agreement done.
And as Chris was, Chris Voss was calling out in that clip. We've just heard that [00:17:00] getting an agreement done can be anywhere between a boardroom, a hostage negotiation, or even the dinner table with your family. It is something it's something that exists everywhere. Doesn't it?
Mike Parsons: Yeah. And let's see how we can process this and put it into place.
Some classic things that come to my mind is if you want to deploy some empathy in let's say a professional discussion where there's some sort of negotiation of terms happening it's just to shut up. I think that's a really good starting point. And then something else that we've learned a lot in the moonshots podcast is really actively listen.
So put your phone away, really focus on the person that's speaking and really try and understand the context where they coming from. And, I often find. When people take an unusual point of view in a discussion, someone explained it to me like this. I thought it was really good that people are often fighting today.
A battle they had yesterday.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I liked that. [00:18:00]
Mike Parsons: Yeah. And I'm like what do you mean? And what they mean is they are having a negotiation with you today based on some. Mistake or pain or problem they had in the past with someone else. So it's actually not about you. It's not even about today. It was about somebody else yesterday, but it's manifesting in the conversation today.
Having those sorts of insights can really help you go, oh, I see. They've had a really bad experience doing a project like this. So that's why they're just completely not open to it, but it is actually a very good path for it for us right now. But you have to go deal with that concern before you can actually agree to anything going forward.
So I think Listening is active listing looking for the context of the person. What a strong point to remind us of if we want a great outcome to a negotiation. How about starting with listening rather [00:19:00] than hammering home your points? Yeah,
Mark Pearson Freeland: abs absolutely. How many times have we ourselves been influenced by something that's happened in the past?
Like you say, a bad project can then create associations in your memory system and your mind when you go into a brand new relationship. So if you had a really bad bit of production work or whatever it might be, and then you're going into a new partnership, your assumption could be. That you will experience the same problems and that's unfair on the new party, isn't it?
Because they don't know. I don't know that the struggles that you might've had, like you say, the active listening allows the new party to understand, or maybe try to try to understand those frustrations or pains that the new party has had.
Mike Parsons: You're right. I think it's just a great reminder to take.
The time to listen, to [00:20:00] understand. And, I think the more that you do that act of listening, understanding, and not trying to think about your points, but trying to think about where they are coming from. I think the path in any negotiation or agreement starts to reveal itself, doesn't it.
Once you how I get it now, I see now I understand where they're coming from. Don't you think that the solution tends to make itself obvious?
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, I think to build on the listening piece, once you start to listen and understand or hear what that party is saying, I think you can almost try to replicate or put yourself in their shoes and understand, or imagine that you are that person.
So you can start thinking, okay. I understand why they're frustrated about this situation. What happens if I was in that situation where I might take it out? Then I might be a little bit guarded about my true intentions, because I want to see if they figure it [00:21:00] out on themselves.
Mike Parsons: Let's go a bit further.
Maybe they don't realize they're fighting a previous battle and you can help them say, Hey, I understand that's what happened in the past, but it doesn't have to happen to.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Exactly you can help them. See if you understand the benefits of labeling pain or frustrations to listening, active listening, as you call out, then you can have.
At that party transcend over that border or boundary that current exists and their minds go on you, you can help them by knowing the communication skills that we're learning from Chris Voss in never split the difference we can assist those other partners or other relationships in order to push things forward proactively.
Mike Parsons: Totally. Now another part of his framework. And we're going to have links to all of these. So head over to moonshots.io. If you're really interested in any of this, just jump into the show notes. We'll have complete links listings, you name it, all the good stuff. Plus the transcript of the entire show.[00:22:00]
But this next one we're going to get into is about your value proposition and the role that, that plays in a conversation. And so this is a really interesting technique in really the early stages of a conversation when you're trying to work out how you can help each other. So let's listen now to Mr.
Chris Voss talking about how to, and when to reveal. Your value proposition before the book came out, we'd be standing up in front of a group. And I'd say, guys, why listened to a hostage negotiator? And what happens? What do you think happens? Why would you listen to a hostage and go shit? Why would you, your skills have to work as what he said, here's what happens on the people that haven't made up their mind.
They tell you which part of your value proposition appeals to them? I could say you should listen to a hostage negotiator because my skills have to work, [00:23:00] or I can look at you and say, why would you do this? And you say the same thing. Now, when does it matter more to you? When you say.
And I begin to understand what aspect now if he's a potential client, I say, why would you ever listen to a hostage negotiator? And he says to me, cause your skills have to work. Now I use that to continually frame my value proposition because I know that's an element of my value proposition. And those are the words that speak to him.
And if their mind is 80% made up ahead of time, you have to diagnose what aspects of what you bring to the table. Matter to them. Because more than likely every single one of you have anywhere from 10 to 20 reasons why people should do business with you. And if you start out on stuff that doesn't matter to me.
How long before I tune you up? Five seconds is a pretty accurate game. It's roughly three to 10 seconds. [00:24:00] Some data says seven seconds, but you're going to blow 5, 7, 10 seconds on the wrong issue. And I'm going to tune you out. And there's no shortage in, I dunno. How many of you been in pitch presentations and have pitch presentations or half had product presentations?
People hate having a CEO in the room cause they're like damn CEOs getting interrupt, start asking questions where I can get all the way through my presentation. Actually, what does that tell you? What tells you number one, that he didn't care about everything you said up to that point in time and what he interrupted John was what he really cares.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think that is a great example or situation that Chris has just said at the very end of that mic, which brings light to light this lesson or this technique isn't it. When you are in a situation, it could be a boardroom with a CEO, or in fact, let's bring it back to the dining room table. And you're trying to put across the point of view and your kid or your child [00:25:00] is.
Orientating or continually bring it back to one thing that's in their mind. That's the thing that, that really matters to the other party. Isn't it. And I think I love the idea of. Sitting down and giving another party in the conversation, the opportunity to tell you what it is that they really care about.
What is the problem that they're trying to solve? Because then as Chris Voss says, it points you or me in this situation towards the right solution. That's within my arsenal, rather than me pitching to you, Mike, my greatest value. Instead, if you tell me the value that you're looking for, and I know that it's within my arsenal, suddenly we can start coming together because the value proposition fit really exists.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. It could be like, let's say you're a restaurant owner and you sit with some of your customers and say, Hey, what do you really appreciate about the restaurant? You come here regularly. And you're thinking as the chef, I [00:26:00] put so much effort into sourcing the food from locally local provenance and all this sort of stuff.
And they might say, oh, we just think this place is so charming. The atmosphere in here is so nice. And as the chef you'll be like, But it's so good because you're like, I didn't think I thought it was, it was the food, but they might say it's the ambience. The point here is having a conversation where you invite your counterparty to actually express to you the value that you create.
Invariably. We'll give you some new insight in how they perceive what you do. And it's almost guaranteed isn't it might not to be exactly the same as you think it is from your.
Mark Pearson Freeland: But, yeah it's funny, isn't it? You and I have used this technique somewhat with clients and partners in the past, you go out and talk to the end user or the other party in order to determine whether [00:27:00] your theory or your hypothesis is in fact, correct.
So talking to another party in this case, maybe we talk about a consumer, like you say, maybe a restaurant, a attendee, talking to them and understanding what stands out and is relevant to them. Reveals perhaps something surprising, saves you a lot of time, effort or money because you're going after you're chasing the wrong lead.
Instead of investing more money into the source. You're in. Considering how you continue ramping up the ambiance, the apps, fear of that.
Mike Parsons: And remember just because you think your value is going to the markets and sourcing the food to use this example. The way your customers at your restaurant perceive it might be the ambience.
It might be the location who knows. The point is like getting that feedback really helps you because you're like, oh my gosh, they love the ambiance of the restaurant. [00:28:00] Now I know what I need to focus on. And I've got this huge insight do we market the ambiance enough? Maybe we're sitting on.
Something that is like an amazing ambulance. And we just didn't realize that was what people actually love. I think being self-aware and checking your assumptions and not just being a victim of wishful thinking is really important because we're all humans. We all see things slightly differently.
And what Chris Voss in his book never split the differences pointing out. Is that having the counterparty reveal to you, what your value proposition. It could be full of insights for you. Powerful stuff.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Powerful stuff. And as Chris goes on to say, if you do start saying the wrong thing, you're going to be tuned out within a matter of seconds.
Oh yes.
Mike Parsons: Oh
Mark Pearson Freeland: yeah. So simply asking the question. What matters to you? Why does it matter to you and using active listening or using a technique just to hear and understand what that [00:29:00] party is saying. It's going to save you so much time
Mike Parsons: and Mark, I'll tell you what matters for us as we are looking to get.
The word out to really share this idea of learning out loud together here on the moonshots podcast. We love it. What matters to us is when you, our listeners, get in there and give us a good review because reviews help us be discovered by new listeners who want to come and learn out loud together.
And we got a cracking review this week.
Mark Pearson Freeland: This is definitely a legendary review. Mike one that will sit in my mind as one of our top. Sorry. If it goes vegan from Germany. Thank you so much for leaving us review in the last week. Just a quick call out to some of the stuff that sorry. I left us, Mike. I am.
Binge listened to 20 episodes over the past week. And even though I've heard and read a few things before, it's amazing to have the major key takeaways. I'm absolutely game-changing individual innovators and leaders of our times recapped unrelated to our everyday lives. Mike, that really sums up what we try and [00:30:00] do on a moonshot shows.
Mike Parsons: It's sorry, that sort of entered our minds and worked out what we're trying to do here at the moonshots podcast. And we're really thankful for that review Sarah, because that really helps us be connected to be displayed in people's search results and to populate throughout the podcast universe.
And as we explore the universe of negotiations and never splitting the difference already, we've seen that you have the life really is. A bit of a negotiation or whether we're crossing the road, living our personal or professional lives, there is negotiations to be had every single day and it all starts with tactical empathy and it gets really good when the other counterparty can reveal to you your own value proposition.
But mark, we've got some more to go don't we?
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yes. This next tactic, this next piece of advice from Chris Voss in never split. The difference is a. Very proactive, almost easy to replicate. Mike, I would [00:31:00] say with a little bit of practice and again, say it can be used in boardrooms. It can be used when you're in the shop with your loved ones.
And I think it's a really interesting example of how tonality as well as just perspective can be utilized in order to. Understand and communicate a key point. And this is the idea of utilizing I versus you versus it within communication. So let's hear from Chris Voss, really breaking this down for us and explaining to us as well as our listeners, how to hold attention.
Mike Parsons: There is a, the specific design with this label. It's not an accident that it starts with award. It is the most neutral way you can make an observation if you drop in the word, you or the eye in any point in time, and here it creates a different emotional response. I'll prove it to you. When I was an FBI agent, I wanted to become a hostage.
When I finally qualified to get the opportunity to go [00:32:00] down to Quantico. I wasn't really enthusiastic about going to Quantico because I knew that I was going to be there for two weeks. It was going to be there over weekend. And Quantico is a boring place to be over the weekend. I ain't nowhere to go.
Ain't nothing to do. And I wasn't that enthusiastic about it, but I got down there and I didn't know, but it was the only in service-y FBI. Whether hostage negotiators from across the country and from all over the world. And I was immediately introduced and became a member of this international negotiation community that I didn't even know existed.
And then while I was there, I started hearing about these guys and gals from the FBI that flew all over the world and working kidnappings. And I heard whispers of these guys and rumors of these guys. And then I find out that these guys would want to send them. And after you became a negotiator, I might get a chance to be on the same team.
And by the time that negotiation courses over, I knew I want to be on the same thing. Now, let me tell you the same story. When you're an FBI agent, you become want to become a hostage negotiator. You find out that you finally get lined up to go down to Quantico, and you're not too [00:33:00] enthusiastic about going to Quantico.
Quantico is a boring places, not much for you to do. But you get down there and you find out that they're negotiators from across the country, from around the world. And suddenly you are a member of the international negotiation community. You didn't even know existed. And NYU, they start hearing about these guys and gals that are hostage negotiators with the FBI, and they fly all over the world, working kidnappings in, you want to be a member of the team.
Now, the second story felt different and I changed from an I story to a year. And every time I used, I, it was a distraction. It was a thought interrupted, brought the attention back to me, which under the right context is effective, but this ain't yet. But I tell the story again differently. You and I bypass that part of your brain that I was hitting with.
I, and I get into your. Limbic system a little more directly, and I started triggering thoughts and I start triggering your thinking in a completely different way by using you. So you, as an [00:34:00] engaging war that reaches out and touches you ever so gently each and every time I use it. So was I, it pulls a different sort of distraction.
That's why we very specifically begin to design this from a very neutral point of view, because when I say it, I hit your brain in a different way and a trigger different kind of thought pattern. And you're immediately reacting to the same sounds. Followed by the label. If I hit you, the intention is to hit you in a different way.
I can say, I know you're angry and you feel that I get it. Or I can say what I'm hearing is you're angry. And right, then you think you're an idiot. So completely different design and why we do not teach people to say what I'm hearing is to feed it back. And that is one of the biggest, most frequent. That a lot of people that have been trained in therapy and psychology and psychiatry there.
When I'm hearing use this has been bothering you for very long time and you were just turned off by that right away, because that statement is I'm a lot more [00:35:00] interested in how I see this and how you're reacting. So there's a very intentional design. There's a lot of word choice here do not be fooled by the simplicity of this is designed to hit your brain in very specific ways.
Th this for me, man, this is really big because I think we unconsciously just use IQ and in our vocabulary without actually focusing on or being aware of this idea of how it triggers the brain. And that, that exercise, he did it really worked. Didn't it? It
Mark Pearson Freeland: is. So there's two bits that stand out to me within the.
Let's call it a tactic or less, or a clip from Chris VOSS. It is the idea of communicating virus, slightly different. Almost third person. I versus you. And in turn that then builds into this idea of communicating a story or a different demonstration, let's say to the other [00:36:00] person in order to reflect, or I think as Chris calls it, label something that the other person's feeling.
So by understanding the difference, the different tone that comes with using you. I, you can then unlock the build that comes with then repeating it back to the other person in a manner that is empathetic to you. As the other party, it does feel like a huge shift once you understand it. And again, it's not something that we're ever really taught, is
Mike Parsons: it?
No. And I think subconsciously we sometimes feel, things are a bit off when someone says I did this and then I did that. And then you're like, okay, I guess you're pretty important in the world then. Yeah. But I tell you another time is when something has gone wrong. And then you did this the use of you did this has had this such implication in the.
Because it's [00:37:00] almost the proportioning of blame, isn't it? You
Mark Pearson Freeland: do this. Yeah, this is an interesting build. And as Chris says, it obviously depends on the situation. You're right. If you're in a conflict resolution states, let's say communication where you are providing feedback. It is probably going to be more efficient if you say I have done this because then it does it create.
Empathy that understanding from the other party, doesn't it? You can
Mike Parsons: go even further than that, rather than saying if you and I had a problem, don't talk about it. Is when you place it in perspective, don't say you did that. Or I did that. This occurred is happened. That's what he's really going for because it becomes totally neutral.
And I think the build that we need to do here is why is he pushing for this? Because as soon as he was like, oh, I did this. And then I went here in Quantico and it's you [00:38:00] lose the attention because he's just talking about himself. You can't relate in the same way. If people are really using, you did this and you do that.
You're like, whoa, Hey, this ain't my fault. I'm just doing what I was told. That's exactly how you would respond to it. So by referring to it, the situation, rather than you did this, or I did this, keeps it objective and prevents emotions, blocking people's access to truth to facts. So what he's really doing is to keep things on a balanced perspective, to keep a neutral atmosphere and a conversation to keep it objective and just let's get through the facts and make a logical conclusion and agree a way forward.
If you referred to let's say it was. It is a problem. Not what you did is the problem, the situation it, rather than you or I, by [00:39:00] keeping it neutral, we are able to get to a better outcome because otherwise, if I say, Hey, mark, you didn't turn up for the podcast, you did this and you put in the wrong link or whatever.
As soon as I do that, you can feel the attack and then you're going to start defending. I just want to get a good show together. So it was a problem that we didn't have the right link.
Mark Pearson Freeland: That's just objective. Yeah. If it feels more, if it feels like a result can come a lot easier, actually, doesn't it?
Because you remove the reliance or the blame on the other person or on either persons, as you say, if you remove the. The individual focus of IOU and relate to more situationally, then it does. It feels more accomplishable that you can get past it. You can
Mike Parsons: replace it. And I would say that it doesn't matter what you or I [00:40:00] did that.
What we're getting from Chris here is a really big tip. If you keep it in those situations as. What you do is you enable both parties to get to a clear, simple, practical negotiation. If you introduce the you're making it emotional. And in those awkward situations, it becomes a blocker. Now what's really fascinating about what he was saying though, is when you do want to use this.
Is when you want to really connect with someone and say, I understand you are feeling frustrated. I understand you feel angry because you're acknowledging the negative. You are actually tipping the hat and connecting with them because that's what they are feeling. And then you can move on to wouldn't it be good if we could get a solution to the problem?
It is a challenge. I [00:41:00] know. I understand. You feel frustrated. Now that's knowledge, let's move on and let's talk about how we fix it.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Isn't it interesting when you start breaking down these type of structures and approaches, how much sense they make, but. Hard or maybe how much we've almost disregarded it in the past, just from lack of awareness. There's certainly been times for me throughout my career, or even to family and friends where I've probably used tones perhaps accidentally, and that are incendiary that are frustrating for the other person to hear that I just didn't really think about because I had an subconscious.
Blame,
Mike Parsons: frustration and frustration. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like the impact of those three really small words. You that's three letters. [00:42:00] It that's two and I that's one. Depending on when we use them can really affect the engagement. Now, when Chris FOSS was saying, I went to Quantico, you really did tune out, but just telling the same thing.
When you go to Quantico, this is what you experience. You're like, oh, okay. I can see myself doing that when he's saying, I like, oh, that's just him doing it. And when you want to keep it objective, it is. We need a solution to it rather than you did this. Or I did this because in the end, if you want the solution at a certain point, you have to stop worrying about who did what and whose fault it is, because if you stay stuck in the fault and the blame is you were just pointing out.
It's very hard to get through because people are too emotional.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. And then it impacts negatively perhaps in the long run as well.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. Maybe you want to make them suffer for what you perceive as their [00:43:00] mistake. You want extract some payback when that might block you from coming up with like actually the best solution to go
Mark Pearson Freeland: forward.
Like you said earlier, today's issues are caused by yesterday's problems, right? So again, what I'm hearing and learning from Chris Voss in today's show on never split. The difference is, again, like you say, consistent to Mark Manson, as well as Robert Green, which is having an awareness and appreciation.
Let's say empathy for those other individuals around you. Once you've got. An awareness or a consideration of those people and know what really matters to you. You can then utilize some of the lessons within the powers of Robert Green to then go out and live quite a productive or positive or effective life.
It seems to me, Mike, throughout this master, without this mindset series, we are starting to create those [00:44:00] building blocks of having a really. Coordinated, structured towards
Mike Parsons: mindsets. Aren't we, our enemy, th we've deliberately gone after some pretty interesting angles here. We wanted to go for some of the things that are less spoken about.
I would have to say never giving up and resilience, which are the classic David Goggins themes. Universally. Everyone loves it. What I think we've done here is put together a little package of. Ways to think about the world that are a little bit. Unusual, they force a reconsideration.
Mark Manson has really come back with a very powerful look at values. Robert Green is we are, here's the animal spirits of the world in which we work. And here's the best way to make them work for you. Chris Voss is everything's in negotiation. These are like these fundamental things that can affect how you perceive the world around you.
And that's the most powerful thing mindset. It's totally. Within your control. There are not [00:45:00] many things in life that you control, but your thoughts, and as a proxy of that, your mindset is totally within your control and the discipline to explore ideas. This is what makes us stronger. What makes us better and gives us the very best chance of being the best version of ourself.
And with that being said, Matt, we still have one more. And this could be one more tactic from Chris Voss and his book never split the difference. And this one could. The Jedi mind trick. What do you think?
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, this could be the biggest piece of advice, tactic, or reveal that Chris Wells has in his book.
And it might be something that some of us have heard before. I think it's a fantastic little technique exercise. It can even be a little bit of. To really dive into understanding value propositions, the pains of another person, as well as understanding where the other individual's coming from. So without further ado, let's hear [00:46:00] one more time in today's show with Chris Voss about the stealth power of mirroring, and how it's a Jedi mind trick,
Mike Parsons: the quickest, easiest, simple, bailout skill that will never fair.
You never faced. Especially when you're thrown off, when you're off track, when you've lost your emotional bank mirrors are there for you. They work with the least amount of brain power. That's why they will, they're always there for you. So we're preparing for one of these trainings in a very early date.
No, it wasn't one of these trainings, but it was a training in a very early days. Yeah. Corporate training. And we're supposed to put together notebooks, actually, we're supposed to put together three ring binders, but in my head, those terms are synonymous and he's putting this stuff together. And I asked him if he's got the notebooks ready and he knows we're supposed to be put in three ring binders, and I'm saying no books.
He doesn't know what's in my head actually. Are you thinking something like this? When I say no books? No. Who knows? This could be, this is not a three ring binder, is it? It's not a three ring binder? I don't know. I don't know. What's the matter with him. I don't know why he can't read my mind, but anyway, so I say, are the [00:47:00] notebooks ready?
And he goes, what do you mean by notebooks? So what does. Yeah, exactly. Goddamn notebooks.
Mark Pearson Freeland: You see it's much
Mike Parsons: clearer then, right? Because the word notebook is so self-explanatory that if you don't understand exactly what I mean, because I choose my words then you are an Andy act. It's the same way I asked for directions when I'm in Paris, what do you mean?
You don't know where the Eiffel tower where's the Eiffel tower? No, I only say it again louder. So we mirrors me. He goes notebooks. I go, yeah, three ring binders.
And that's why the mirrors are the great value out of the corner tool. Somebody's not on the right on the same sheet of music. It's either you or it's them a quick mirror always causes always causes people to restate it another way it's especially effective with assertives because we figured if you're unclear, we just need to talk about.
I love this idea of mirroring and how, when you mirror back to people, it forces them to restate the idea, but in [00:48:00] a different way, totally unaware of this, but that was neat. Wasn't it?
Mark Pearson Freeland: A lot of techniques that I'd encountered before, or at least here, go, let me say it again. It's not something that.
Consciously encountered before, but it does make so much sense. Doesn't it? Mike, just enabling you
Mike Parsons: mark. Mark. Does that make sense?
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think it does make sense. And let me tell you why Mike, because,
But it doesn't it, because it feels very open in it encourages the other party, the one doing the speak. To expand or build upon their points that they've just
Mike Parsons: noticed that when I did it too, then you felt compelled to explain.
Mark Pearson Freeland: Exactly. I felt compelled to explain. I felt compelled to build, because you had asked me quite an open question, mark, where is this?
Is this? What is it? So your natural instinct I think, is to continue. Conversing and explaining it. So the other party [00:49:00] knows exactly what it is you're saying, but I'd say that's an unconscious behavior, isn't it
Mike Parsons: very unconscious, which is what the big subtext to a lot of what Christopher's talks about is these are things that you do subconsciously.
Why not use them consciously to get a great outcome for both?
Mark Pearson Freeland: W do you think you can get a good outcome from both parties?
Mike Parsons: Mark? I do think you can get a good, and here's why really neat thinking. Isn't it?
Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, it is. And it's, it reminds me of one of the biggest challenges that exists within business, but I would assume also around the family dinner table, not all being on the same.
As Chris Voss says on the same sheet of music, when everybody's going in a slightly different direction, even if it's just very minor, very subtle at this point, maybe somebody thinks the meetings on a Tuesday at 11, as opposed to Tuesday at 12, something quite [00:50:00] small then becomes a huge deal.
The closer and closer you get to the deadline. And I think the same is true within a family ecosystem as well without all being on the same page. You breed insecurities, anxieties, frustrations, eventually arguments, maybe even worse, maybe lose the business. Maybe you fall out all these small little things from not being aligned.
And I think I would argue that sometimes in our lives. Tread the path of least resistance don't we Mike? So rather than seek out confirmation, we're quite happy just to say, oh, you know what? I think they've got it. I think they know what I mean.
Mike Parsons: Oh my gosh. What am? And what a mistake, because you think about this I'll give you like a really like a social example.
Think about all the relationships that you've had. All the, of all the friends you've had. Who've been in relationships that haven't worked out. When I look back at a lifetime of friends and [00:51:00] family that have been in relationships that haven't worked. Do you know when people talk about couples that have been together for a couple of years, and then they just.
Fall apart. I think so much of that is they're not recalibrating, they're not checking in with each other on how you're doing. Where do you want to go? And so what happens is, when people say, oh, they just drifted apart, I think that's because they don't recalibrate. They don't mirror.
They don't double check in, where are you going? How are we doing it? Why are we doing it? All of those important questions. And then you only need to be off by a couple of degrees. But over time, you end up a world apart, don't you?
Mark Pearson Freeland: I totally agree. I totally agree. It can feel really small at the beginning, but unless you do those check-ins unless you have that conversation, even though it might not feel like a big.
If you just start cultivating a bit of a habit or behavior to do that check-in yeah, you're right. You will then avoid those feelings of [00:52:00] uncertainty, these feelings of potential frustration, and therefore it'll lead to a much better, a period of collaboration relationship, whatever it might be. I think it is just, again, all comes down to the power of good communication.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. What a crazy way in which these small things tend to have such big impact. That's another theme of his book is
Mark Pearson Freeland: yeah. This idea of never splitting the difference. It really truly understanding the other person's point of view or at least taking the time to try and understand and try to have empathy.
I think that's where one of the biggest lessons from Chris Foster's book comes through, isn't it rather than disregard the. Just pause and maybe work hard at understanding where it is that they're
Mike Parsons: coming from. Yeah. And I think that it's amazing that you can do better if you take the time to listen to others first.
Isn't that interesting? So it's [00:53:00] really in your own self-interest to be empathetic. I think that's like such a great twist.
Mark Pearson Freeland: It's such a twist is such truth. And again, as consistent with the mindset series so far, probably something that a lot of us don't spend enough time really digging into. Yeah.
Mike Parsons: So which of these themes as graduates which one has piqued your interest, these little tactics, but with bigger.
Mark Pearson Freeland: I think the mirror mirroring, if I can say it correctly, is the, is this stealth powers in it? I think that, because that calls out a behavior of reinforced. The other person's point of view, gives you with very little effort, very little brain power. You don't even have to think of a clever question.
You just repeat those last three words perhaps of what somebody said. It enables you to get on to that same page and by not being on the same page, boy, have I seen a lot of face-time?
Mike Parsons: Oh [00:54:00] yeah, you wanted
Mark Pearson Freeland: what about you, Mike? What's the key. Less than that, you're finding from CRISPR versus book.
Mike Parsons: Listen, I just think the use of IQ and it really, that really got me is like these small, like three letters, two letters, one letter. But can change the perception, the emotion of a discussion so dramatically. Really great. It's like when you put it all together, it's all these little things like that.
Really a big deal.
Mark Pearson Freeland: They totally have that compound interest, small little things we can all do pretty, actively, pretty easily. It just takes that little bit of preparation can have such a huge.
Mike Parsons: They haven't. Mark, thank you so much for joining me on this little adventure. Shall we say that had a big effect and thank you to you.
Our listeners, our moonshot is all of you who are working hard to be the best version of yourself. And the way we're doing that is we're learning that. Together. And today in show 169, we did that with Chris FOSS and his [00:55:00] book never split. The difference is started by this first principle, if you will, that life truly is one big negotiation.
And the starting point is tactical empathy, a big moonshots thing. And if you can go out in these discussions and invite. Your counterparty to reveal the reason why you create value, then you really are on the right track and make sure you hold the right attention. Use these three, two or one character words to great effect.
I, you N it, they have the power to hold attention with your audience. And if you want to step it up for your Jedi mind trick, it is mirroring to make sure that you have that true connection, that true empathy, and to push. And use it to push your conversational partner to go in and to explain why you guys can reach a great outcome and great outcomes is what we're all about here on the moonshots [00:56:00] podcast.
That's a wrap.