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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
Today learn how purpose, intention and connection can help you empower your team. Are you a leader trying to get more from your business and life? Me too. So join me as I document conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unbound with me, Chris DuBois. Writes Babkin is the executive director of BNI Melbourne Central, where he's helped over 2200 business owners find success. Ruth is well versed in leadership, marketing and storytelling, having spent decades honing the craft. Through his experience as a leader, he's developed several models to help others replicate the successes. He's observed and embodied. And today, we're going to learn more about them. Great. Welcome, Ron. Man. Thank you very much, Chris. I've been very much looking forward to our recording today. Me too. This has been one on my list that I've just been anxiously awaiting. And so let's let's jump right in. Let's, let's tell her tell the audience kind of your backstory. Ah, well, how far back do you want to go? Actually? That's what everyone asked me that. And I'm like, I don't know. We can we can go back as far as you think is interesting. Well, actually, everyone is interesting. That's why it's something I'm gonna say out of the gate. One of the things that I've learned with working with people is a lot of people think that their life isn't interesting. But every single one of us has a fascinating life, that when you share that knowledge and that story with people, there is always something to learn from everyone that you meet, which is why you should be more interested than interesting with every person they meet. So that's just that's tip one out of the guy. Right? Yeah. Right. Great advice. All right. That's the show everybody. Thank you. Yeah, so look, I think back to my very first serious job, I was driving along the Harbour Bridge with the boss, the one that started that company, I was brand new in this business, it was a commercial textile business. And we were selling to architects and interior designers, and it was the 80s. Or you wouldn't even know now the 80s, the 80s were a good time, particularly in Australia, we were coming of age, then we had a big bicentennial celebration at the end of the 80s. So there's a lot of stuff going on in particularly in Sydney. And she says, we drive across the harbour bridge braith. If you want to succeed in this business, you need to learn how to network. And I sat there and I was 20 something and I had no idea what that word meant. And, you know, I sat through the meetings during the day. And as we were coming back across the bridge to the office in the afternoon, I said, due to what did you mean by networking? And she said, I'm really glad you asked. And then she spent the next couple of years, mentoring me on the true and fine art of networking. And I am forever grateful for that. Because some of the stories that you know, I learned from her work was that it's really important to care about other people before you care about yourself first, and help other people before you want something from them. Because if you do that stuff will come to you no matter why. And so all through my business life, my business journey I have always tried to add value to people tried to help people before I asked for staff. And so I worked for years and that textile industry that I moved, there's only so many minutes of fabric you can sell so I moved into telco industry and I was there when Nokia released those really small phone. You probably don't remember them but little tiny series are indestructible. Yeah, yeah, that's still I mean, if you have them now the collector's items, kids love them. But I don't know if you know this little game called snake. There's a little game called snake when we had a three hour training session on how the I mean, it's the most basic thing. And then what we were asked to do was go out into cafes and like loudly play that game so that people could come over and look at it was a marketing tool. So people would come over and Wow, what's this? This is not Yes, three series now we're like blown away. It was amazing. So it's a really, really cool thing to be part of. And we laugh now. Back in the day, it was great. To have that on the telephone. It's it's quite funny now to think about it. And then I worked in telco for a while, took a redundancy and did the big overseas trip came back, got involved in a mattress business and through that mattress business. I was a national sales and marketing manager. I bought one of their franchises as well and I said to the other franchisees at one of our sales trainings, guys, if you want to do well in this business, you need to learn how to network and one of the franchisees He's turned around to me and said, Bryce, where are you networking? Yeah, kind of dropped that skill set a bit. So the very next week, I went along to a BNI meeting that somebody had been hounding me to go to for ages. And I'd be like, No, too busy, too busy. And, you know, as we're in busy like a badge, and I went to it, and the rest is history, I ended up loving it becoming a fantastic member, ended up buying the business because it was so good. And that has really led me and opened so many doors. And now people get me to come in and kit as a keynote speaker at conferences, where I talk about leadership connection. And I'm writing a really cool book, I haven't told you about this, Chris. It's a really good book called myth busting, the busy myth busted. It's all about why really successful people never use the word busy. And you heard me say that I used to wear it as a badge. And there's a whole I've learned over the years that busy is something that people use as an excuse for a whole lot of stuff. So I'm on a mission to stop people using the word busy. Because I've observed that the most successful people, the most successful leaders that are, are in my orbit, never use that term, because they're always available. And they're always present for you, even if they have a lot of stuff on Right. Right. So there was your origin story, right? Your luck there? No, and that's, and now I'm excited for the book too. Well, the busyness be slow, just, I mean, just going off that it the amount of times in my life, I've realized, like, I've wanted to say I'm busy. And I'm like, Well, I just spent 20 minutes doing that, and I didn't need to. So am I really busy? Or am I just making bad choices? Yeah, well, look, he knows the term, the word busy up until industrial era really was about survival. Like, you know, if you weren't busy tilling the fields, and you're creating your food and your shelter, you just didn't survive, right. So that was a reasonable thing to say. But, you know, as we've moved through society, and we are now in the post, though, in the digital age, you know, we use it kind of like a shield. And somehow, in our society, we have come to believe that somehow being busy elevates our importance, or our relevance and society. And somehow, the notion that we're not busy somehow means that we're lesser than, whereas, you know, the really successful people that I get to hang with, they are, they seem to have a lot of time, they seem to have the ability to do a lot of stuff. And, you know, if you want to get stuff done, you know, that's a go and busy person, but they will never say they're busy, they will either make it a priority, or they won't, you know, but they will give me the time of day. And I've observed over the years, the language that people use, and, you know, I see people come up to them and say, I've got this great idea. And instead of saying, I'm really busy, come back later, let's go, you know, I've got five minutes before my next meeting, give me a snapshot, so that they will give you that time, and they're fully present. They will look you in the eyes, they will listen to you and you are the the only person that is important. And you're they'll listen to your idea. And if it's great, they'll say, Okay, well, I've got another thing to get to, let's carry this on, let's make an appointment. Or they'll say, this really fantastic idea. I don't think it's the right thing for us now. But maybe if he came back with massage that so they never shut those, they never shut people down. They always encouraged them. And they're always appreciative that they've come to them with an idea. And if I think back to that original boss of mine, I went to her with an idea once I look back at it now. And I think, oh my gosh, it was so crazy. And I'd spent all these, you know, a whole weekend preparing this presentation for and it was just not right for that business. But I was young I was I was having a great. And she never, she never belittled me, she never made me feel like it was a waste of time. She was so appreciative that I had brought that to her. And years later, I looked back at that. And I realized that I put my heart and soul into this. And she never shut me down. She never made me feel like I've done something wrong. And I was able to come to her with other ideas in the future, because I knew that she would be open to listening, right? So if she was just said, right, that's crap, I'm never gonna do that or, like for our business or, you know, two minutes shut me down. That behavioral pattern would have started to set in with me. You know, it's very Pavlovian, but you shut somebody down, and they're not going to want to pretend again. So, you know, I'm really excited about this book. I've been writing it for about a month and it's really the combination of spending time with really cool people. And, you know, I really hope that But I can get rid of that busy words where language? Yeah, I wonder, just on the use of busy and, and, and the, like negative associations around being not busy I wonder how much that's just spawned through like hustle culture. Yeah. Like were being not busy means you're lazy. Totally, it's like you're not achieving your potential. That's, that's what I think we've come to associate not busy with. And somehow you're lesser if you are fully engaged in everything all the time, but some of the most successful people that I know and I get to hang with some pretty cool people, I think they make a point of carving time out to just be. And you know, I think unless you actually get to take time out of doing and just being you know, your time doing is less impactful, because we've all got to do stuff, right. So we already get stuff done. But if we're in that space all the time, and we were just talking about this, before we got on the on the recording, the body can't tell real from fake. So if you're creating this frenzy of frenetic frenzy, your body is going to think that, you know, things are high stress. So you're telling your body by this act of busy, that you're stressed, it's like, the body's going to take that away, and it's gonna bank that it's gonna, this guy is stressed, I'm stressed, I'm going to pull the stuff out that stress looks like and it's telling your body to slow down. But we as Westerners don't do that. Right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, you have worked with a lot of business owners, I have over your your tenure, I want to talk about some of the patterns that you consistently see businesses struggle with? Well, the one of the things that I know is a killer for businesses, because I've seen it over and over again, is when they're not clear about the purpose of their business, and who they are serving, and why. And that comes back to a really extension of your target market. But I aligned purpose with the word vision, you know, years ago, everyone said, You got to have vision, mission and values. So I use that triad as purpose, intention, and connection. So I think purpose is really what are you that what's your business there to do? Or what are you as an individual there to do? That everything I talked about, you know, it can be a business or a person, you know, what's the intention? So what are you going to do to get you to your purpose, so that's your mission, and then how are you going to connect, so they're the values that you have in your self, or in your business. And so if you're really clear about that, then people are going to come with you for your journey. And, you know, I'm sure you and all of your listeners, and we were talking off air about some authors that we really like and that and you know, when you find somebody who really resonates with you and your journey, it's because they're very clear about who they're serving, and they're serving me because if I'm connected, if I'm like, I'm on your journey with you, then I feel that we're aligned. So they are speaking to me, when it comes back to in marketing target market. If you don't know your avatar, it's very hard to connect your audience because unless you have the marketing budget of Coca Cola, you can't advertise to everyone. You can't communicate everyone, right? You got to got to be really clear. And so many business people want to be everything to everyone, and end up being nothing to no one. Or if they are it's a lot of hard work. And they're always spinning to get new business. And you know, clients don't stay so your attentions lower, or customers don't return. So you're not getting repeat sales. You know, in my mattress store, I knew that I was very aligned to Cairo's and physios at work with people who had significant injury. And so they're the people I spoke to, and so they would come back time and time again, with their clients. So I had this endless stream of referrals coming into my business, right? Because I knew who I was talking to and everything we did, we spoke to those people. And of course, I got people who just randomly came in one of the bed or people who heard we help people with bad people can work out what you do if they want your product or service, clarity, clarity. That's, I mean, that's one of the big things that I work with clients on where if we can just build our awareness, build our ability to communicate, right, a lot of clarity just happens naturally. Yeah. Do you find when you're working with clients that don't have clarity, they're in a state of anxiety because they don't know what they're doing? and that kind of like with spinning their wheels, right, and it turns into just stagnation. And then they have this inability to make decisions, analysis paralysis, because they're there. Which actually leads us into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, which was just how intentionality can improve the decision making process. Yeah. Because when you are intentional about who you're connecting with, and the pathway that you're going through your mission, when you're very intentional about that people that you're trying to connect with, will resonate with with the message, and they will understand that you're the real deal. You know, you see people out there, you see businesses out there, and particularly today in the digital world, and something about them, you know, it does if they feel icky, or you feel that they're not genuine, that's a word that people use a lot today disingenuous, but you just know that that person isn't right for you. And that's because their intentionality isn't there. So they haven't either got a real clarity on who they're serving and why. Or it's just not you, like, you know, I'm I'm not going to buy stuff from my 22 year old influence on Instagram, who's selling, you know, some health thing, because I'm just not going to resonate with that person, right. So their intention is not to talk to me to their language isn't going to resonate with me, the way they present in the world isn't going to fit for me. But you get somebody who uses the language that I would use uses, the imagery that I would use, has the look and feel that I feel comfortable with, I'm going to follow you until you know that journey comes to a natural conclusion because we're on the same pathway. And so, I mean, I've noticed, personally, even even when I was being mostly intention, or felt like I was being intentional, right, I was still at times losing focus, to maintain that intentionality. And so I had to, like incorporate things into my, my setup where if someone came into my office, I would get out from behind my desk, move around and sit next to them. So that everything at the computer, everything on my desk will kind of went away. And now my my intention is whatever we need to work through in this conversation. Do you find a lot of leaders just struggle with being able to, in the moment even just maintain that intentionality on what do I need to do in order to get the job done right now, I think when you are really clear about what your purpose is, you can make decisions much more easily than if you don't know. So you can make a decision as to whether this distraction or this thing that's coming into your space is appropriate. Do you have you ever read the book The one thing? Yes. Yeah. killer? Killer? Yeah. And Dr. Epstein? Yeah. So I mean, I love that book, I really enjoy the theory behind that, you know, what's your one big thing that's going to get you to where you want to go. And so you always, I always try and focus on my one big thing. And if something comes into my orbit, that isn't my one big thing, it doesn't help me to get my purpose. It's not part of my intention to get to my one big thing. I can very easily say no to that. If it's a person that can do it politely, or if it's a distraction, I can go, you know, am I going to do this or go down this pathway? Well, if I know that, that's not going to get me to my one big thing, because that's not intentional for me. It's not going to get me to my purpose. I just say no to it. And I never feel bad about that. And I see the most successful leaders that I get to hang with that they don't have a problem, say no. And they do it in a way that somehow you feel like, it was a nice note, you know, there's a good note and a bad night, right? So people who are really clear about their direction and why they want to get there. And they're myopic in their journey. And they say, No, this isn't right for me that right now, or I can't accommodate this right now. You just never feel like you've been slapped and moved away. You kind of go okay, yeah. Because I see where you're going. And I respect where you're going. And that's the beauty of strategy, right? Is that you're, you're saying yes to some things and saying no to others and being able to say direct in that. I think it was a essentialism. But Greg Gowen. He has a series of ways you can say no, and I've used them where it's like when someone tries putting something on my plate, say, okay, I can do this, but what do you want me to sit down so I can focus on this? And that immediately get someone to shift their thinking and say, Okay, how important is this compared to whatever I just gave them? And yeah, I love that using that one. Yeah, well, Dr. Ivan Meisner, the founder of BNI has a really great way of dealing with this because sometimes in BNI I chapters you might have some internal conflict because you get 40 or 50 entrepreneurs together. And there's a lot of AI in a room with 40 entrepreneurs. And that's okay. But sometimes I get sidetracked by stuff that doesn't really matter. In Melbourne, we're very coffee focus, and the number of people that complain about the bad coffee, because that's our culture in Melbourne. But Ivan says is a really great way you respond to that you say is that on mission? And of course, if you know what the the organization's mission is, or the intention of the organization, you can quickly say, is this on mission? Is this intentional for us? Clearly not let it go, we can let it go. And then people either make a choice to let it go and move on, or to grab hold of it and make it an issue. And then they basically isolate themselves from the group or they disengage themselves from that the credibility goes out the door. And but yeah, so I love that. Is this on mission? Yeah, that is a great way to frame it. Okay, I want to go back to kind of the three pillars, would you call of purpose, intention, connection? How, how do you kind of link these so that you're, you're able to better care for the people on your teams? Yeah. So I have a model with intention at the top purpose on the left and connection on the right. And in the middle, I have a heart with people in the middle. So I believe that the most successful people that I've seen really see that people are the driver for everything they do. So it's either people in their business or people in their lives. And when the focus is not on themselves, because it when people are focused on themselves as the end game. They're the people that you feel that a key factor with, because you know, they're the people that are just, you know, there's something not quite right here. Or I would say they're not the real deal. So you know, when I met you, I could tell you're the real deal, because you care about other things, I can tell you, I can tell you the way that you navigate the world that you are really looking at the way you can impact people in your world. So the work that you do your your previous life, in the day talked about being in the services on your podcast, or just drop something that all right. Am I going down a path that shouldn't go down. But you know that that's somebody who has a focus in their life of serving other people and the work that you do, where you serve other people to get them through their leadership journey, I mean, that that's a really amazing way of navigating the world to help other people first. So when you have people in the center of of those three pillars, and everything you do you come back to that, how is this going to work to to support the people in my world, either my team, my customers, or my family? Because they're the three things right? So everything comes back to people. Right? And so I guess, now let's just get into the actual leadership of the team. You're right, you're already focusing on those pillars, bringing it back to actually work with them to give them everything they need. And you've also told stories about how your leaders were empowering you? What how, how do you help other leaders just empower their teams? Through this? They can you can get the most from them? Yeah, well, the first thing I always say is, you know, what, what is what it Where are you going? What's the journey that you're on, because if you don't know that journey, then you can't bring people with you. Because if you cannot communicate the purpose of your your, your team or your business, people just simply will not come for the journey with you. And once you are clear about that, and you clear about the mission in your business, that's the intention. People make choices, they either want to come for the journey, or they don't. And if they want to come for the journey, they will be all in. If they are aware that you are you really clear about where you are in your journey and what the business is doing. What you're doing is a person that will jump on board and people will go to the ends of the earth to support somebody that they see is very focused and very intentional, and has a very clear purpose and everything they do lines up with their values. Because if you know what my values are, and you respect they have to be the same values as yours. But you can respect that and you know that when I make decisions, everything is aligned to my values, then you can be respected and people will come with you on that journey. So I remember when I was in telco, I learned from one of my managers there that the most important meeting of the week was your One to one catch up with your individual team members. And I had six individual team members. And he said to me, whatever you do bright, never canceled those minutes. Because, you know, it's very easy to cancel those sorts of meetings because stuff comes up. But he said, never cancel those meetings. Because without those people, you will and never achieve what you have set out to achieve in your team. And that really stuck with me. And it stuck with me through my my journey in BNI. Because I've watched people in BNI, always, the super successful people in BNI always have time to invest in their fellow chapter mates, or so in a BNI context, within their business, their own their own people. And it's that investment in people and listening to what they need and how you can help them. And the best thing I learned was a one question that I always my, my boss had three told me, always ask this question, how can I help you this week? is such an easy question. I love it. How can I help you? It's just the best question. Yeah, and sometimes people will say, you know, they just want to be heard, or, you know, everything's good. But if you genuinely ask that question, and you look somebody in the eyes when you do it, because you've got to be the real deal. And they know that you will be there to listen and help them with the answer. You can get people to do anything for you, because they will see you as a true leader. I'm sure you saw that, in your own journey and the services that you know, if you're not there for your people, they're not going to come with you. Yeah, there are two questions I like to ask in any given situation with the person. And it's because they're asking this in their own heads, even if they don't know what am I say? Do I matter? And if you can address those two questions for them, right? You're, you're giving them everything they need to start showing up for you. And so like what you're saying, what do you what can I do for you to help this week? Yeah, now they're, they're gonna feel safe, because they know they have you that they can count on. And they're gonna feel like what they're doing matters because you, as the leader are willing to come down and actually help them with doing it goes a long way. Yeah, and I think at the moment, with the culture of busy, people just don't carve out the time to sit down one on one, look people in the eye, and give them the time that they deserve. Because if people are working for you in a team, and they're reporting to you, you know, that is a that is a privilege, you should never take for granted. Right? On, it's like you hire them to be experts, right to do a specific job so that you don't have to. Yeah, and so I think giving them a little bit of time to make sure they have what they need to keep everything running is. The other thing I see really cool leaders do is they celebrate success. They really celebrate success. And it's not always, you know, the big office party, or you know, taking people out for lunch, it can be as simple as just, you know, you did a good job. But how often do people say that? It's so easy to get caught up in doing that you forget to take time out to say, Chris, you did a great job. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And, you know, I know myself when somebody says that, to me, it's like, wow, I got noticed. I mean, I was with two of my team members yesterday, and we were getting ready for our big awards event next week. And you know, at the end of it, I just said, you know, guys, I just really appreciate everything you've done, you are awesome. And what you've done is an amazing job. And you could see them just really, you know, feel proud and their chest sort of swelled up and they were really appreciate them both. Thank you so much. Thanks for that. It's done a lot of work. And I really appreciate it, you know, I get to rock up and just be a rock star on the day, they will done the way that rocky up on a stage like a rock star does not happen without a lot of people doing a lot of stuff to get you there. So never, never forget to thank the people that get you there on the way. Actually one thing that I want to share with you that I got taught when I was learning to be a keynote speaker was always go up to the tech people before and after your presentation to thank them say Hey, my name is Brian Introduce yourself. I'm speaking and at the end of that, always thank them so I use that wherever I go. Even if I'm not keynote speaking. I think you always thank the waitstaff or the service staff and an event or you know, if you're if you're in a space where you're in a cafe always saying people but it's it's an easy thing to do, but the impact is beyond imaginable hazing, right. No one has ever been hurt from a pat on the back. All right. And we even Yeah, there A personal story the other day, it was a long day at work. Couple things went wrong. We're working on it. And my youngest daughter walked in and just gave me a hug and said, Thank you for working for us. And it was just like, that little thing was like, boom, I got this and right on, I'm like, Reese entered. I'm good. Like, it was just like this small amount of appreciation. I don't think she knew what she was doing. Like she was just wanted to come in and say something nice to me. When she said the right thing. She probably didn't know what she was doing. You know, kids are really intuitive. They pick up on what's going on. And, you know, good on, that's beautiful. You're gonna tell that story of her 21st birthday. Yeah. Remember that one time? You appreciate? I remember it. So. Yeah. So appreciation does go a long way. Right. So Brett, one of the things that you turned me on to, and I now pass off to a bunch of other people to take this assessment is the sparkler type. Yep. And I wanted to talk to you about really what's drawn you to this assessment over things like Myers Briggs, and the DISC assessment in order to kind of see the motivations of people and how you can better work with them. Yep, I love. I love that we're talking about this, because it's one of the most impactful things I've ever done in my, my business life. Spark was created by a guy called Jonathan fields, and he has an amazing book called How to live a good life. And I really recommend everybody reads that book, it's a really great way of looking at how to have the best life that you possibly can. So business or non business people really great book. But he also has a great podcast called The Good Life podcast, and, and he works with amazing human beings. And when you get to be in the orbit of amazing human beings, you get to pick up on stuff. And he came up with this idea that a lot of personality tests don't really give you an idea of what lights you up in your life. So he spent a lot of time researching how to create this program called the spa archetype. So when you do the assessment, you can do it for free spa archetype.com. You can pay 20 bucks and get the extended assessment, but you can get the free one and I you know, the three ones is good enough. You you'll, you'll love what you get out of that. But what you get is three things, you get the anti spy archetype, and the secondary spy archetype and your primary archetype. So the anti spy archetype is stuff that drags you down. It's the stuff that you know, you know, in your life, you just, it just doesn't make you happy, doesn't light you up. It's like you're in, in in. Well, Ivan miser talks about being in your wax not in your flames. When you're, when you're in your wax, it's your toddler, when you're in your flame you light up. So the secondary spy archetype is the stuff that you do to support your primary sparked up. And your primary spa archetype is a stuff that absolutely lights you up. Now, what it doesn't do is go inside break become a doctor or a lawyer, or an electrician, it tells you the sort of stuff that lights you up. So my anti spy archetype is stuff that I absolutely hate to eat. So that is the essential is like that is distilling information and making sense out of it. Process stuff. I hate it, it drags me down. So I hire really cool people to do that sort of stuff. For me. I have an amazing Operations Manager. And she loves process. She loves putting a system to things. I'm like, wow, this is a match made in heaven. My secondary spark type is a sage. So it's to share knowledge. I love sharing knowledge. I think that I'm very lucky that I've been put in some amazing situations in my life. And I think it's incumbent upon me to share that knowledge with as many people as I can to make their lives easier. And my primary spa archetype, which should come as no surprise to you, or the listeners, is a performer. And so I love speaking on stage. I know a lot of people find that scary, but I love keynote presenting, I love sharing that knowledge. And you know, my ego gets loved by that, you know, we all have an ego, let's be real about it. And so it's good that that's a resourceful way that my ego can can get met. So there's 10 Spa archetypes. So it's not going to tell you specifically what jobs do but when you know what lights you up, you can find that in any work that you do. And a great example is a barista. If you're a barista, and you're making coffee, you could just it could be a drudge job. It could be awful. I would I'd actually quite like it I think but, you know, I think that it could for some people be just a job job if you're in a busy cafe, but if you're sparker type is like me to be a performer you could be behind that. Coffee machine, you could be chatting with the customers, you could be making the coffee, you could be making those beautiful shapes on the top of the coffee, you can be chatting away about your day and their day, and you can be really performing really well. But if you are the person that loves to teach, maybe what you are is a person that shows people in a cafe, how to make the really great coffee, because you know how to make the best coffee. But maybe you're the systems person. So instead of being the performer, you're actually teaching people how the system of coffee getting made really, really well can really elevate that cafe. So you create a system where the coffee can get made faster, better, and can more consistently so no matter what sparks you or what lights you up, you can find something in your job that lights you up. But what you'll also realize is sometimes your job just isn't the place that can light you up. And maybe you need to find that in your personal life. And so sometimes a job is just a means to an end. And in your personal life, you can find stuff that really lights you up so that your job achieves what it needs to achieve pays the bills, then you can go home and paint, create your art or do yoga or sing or whatever it is that you know makes your heart joyous. I'm very passionate. I was actually. Yeah, no. And that's and that's why I was excited to just share my results with you. When I when I took it. Like right after we first talked. And it actually surprised me that I was a sage and then warrior. I know I've always liked teaching evil and stuff, but I never thought that would be my primary. And it was just really interesting to kind of look at what I'm doing now and how I'm feeling charged, like podcast episodes and like just talking to people and how that's it feels right I kind of I kind of sense that you might be a sage when we first met because you clearly like to share your knowledge and you're a very accomplished individual. So that kind of thought it might might be there somewhere. The Warrior I kind of guessed would kind of be there. But you know, sometimes you guess what you think somebody is, but when they do the spa archetype, and it's really accurate, nobody that I put through it says that it's not absolutely nailing them, you know, you sometimes you don't get it right. And then when you really understand what makes people tick, particularly if you've got a team of people around you, you can really talk to them in a way that's appropriate. There is no point in me talking to my operations manager in flowery language, and lots of love and hugs and all that she doesn't respond to that she's like, I want to process you know, just breathe, give me the information that I need. And I'll get the job done that makes her happy. You know, I have another person that's in my team, who is very people focused, and you know, she likes to hug she likes to, you know, you've done a great job and all of that. And so they're very different people. And I know, from having seen their sparker type what lights them up, so I know what to give them more of, and I know what to not to dump on them as well. Right? Awesome. This has been an awesome conversation. I am super excited. I'm gonna have to have you back so that we can go deeper on a lot of this. Yeah, but let's do the three little lightning round questions here about your book, would you recommend that everyone reads? Yeah, I've got it here. This is by a woman here in Australia called Lynn because I love her. It's a book called ish. It's the problem with our pursuit of perfection. I don't know about you, but I spend a lot of time procrastinating about stuff that I that I want to be perfect or before I release it into the world. But when I learn that, like you can actually like most people wouldn't even know that it's not perfect. In your mind. Like you just sometimes you just got to get stuff done and just be good enough. And good enough in most of our world is exceptional. But you know, it's great. I used to run a lot of blogs and people used to tell me about spelling mistakes. I'm like, you know, how did you write this week? Okay. All right. So it was good nap and the content. Did you like the content? Yeah, the content was great, but you had you misspelled one word I'm like, but I did it right, move on. So good enough is like one spelling mistake in the blog that my pedantic English friend calls me up and says I spelt wrong. I'm not going to lose it over that. So I really love that book. It gives you permission to like, live good enough and, you know, with with stuff that's going on these days, sometimes good enough is as is as good as you ever need to be. Right? Awesome. A lot of what is next for you professionally. Right? Well, so the book I'm really I'm really right into the book in the moment of the be the busy mythbuster I'm hoping to have that out this year. So I'm also creating a keynote around that, because I'm really passionate about people being released from the busy myth because I think it drags a lot of people down and I think I want to release people from that that need to be busy. Okay, awesome. And then last question, Where can people find you? Yes, so I have a website braith Bam can.com So it's BITHBAMK I en.com you will find me there you'll find you can book me for speaking getting some dubious virtual speaking these days seems to be a thing in America people are getting me into virtual conferences which is pretty cool. Or from across the world a whole pile of free stuff on there I love I love giving away free stuff so there's a really cool little free course people can do on how to become referral already today so yeah, lots of free stuff on there. So yeah, awesome. Okay, well again, thank you for joining me Bray. We will have to do this again soon. Legendary Thanks, my if you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership, visit leading four.com And as always deserve it