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Join Wendy Coulter as they dive deep into the power of branding and its surprising impacts, with special guest Mike Ganey—a marketing veteran with experience at Anheuser-Busch, Balson, and House-Autry Mills. In this episode, Mike shares insights on the importance of developing a strong brand, the value of customer-focused innovations, and how marketing fits into the broader company strategy. From his unique experiences in marketing non-alcoholic products at Anheuser-Busch to pioneering innovations in commodity products, Mike presents invaluable lessons for business leaders looking to make a profound impact. Tune in for real-world examples of successful marketing tactics, the significance of taking a holistic view of marketing, and why marketers should always be in love with their target audience.
00:00 Introduction to the Power of Branding
00:52 Meet the Team: Wendy and Hanna
02:01 Special Guest: Mike Ganey's Journey
02:46 Marketing Insights and Career Highlights
11:41 The Hummingbird Effect in Action
19:14 International Marketing and Consumer Understanding
23:22 Innovative Product Development Strategies
33:11 The Fear of Price Increases
33:39 Unarticulated Consumer Needs
35:46 Innovation in Product Development
37:02 Observational Research at House Autry
40:21 New Product Concepts
46:42 The Role of Marketing Leaders
47:33 Staying Competitive in a Changing Market
53:52 The Value of Market Research
01:01:20 Simplifying Marketing Strategies
01:05:05 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Hummingbird Effect with Wendy Coulter?
Welcome to "The Hummingbird Effect," a podcast dedicated to uncovering the subtle yet powerful ways that small innovations can transform your business. Hosted by Wendy Coulter, CEO of Hummingbird Creative Group, this show delves into the stories and strategies behind successful brand building.
For over 25 years, Wendy has helped CEOs and business leaders redefine their brands through innovation and compelling narratives. In this podcast, she shares the insights and lessons learned from her extensive experience, exploring how a strong brand orientation can significantly increase the value of your business.
Each episode features engaging conversations with industry leaders, business advisors, and innovators who have harnessed the power of branding to make a substantial impact. Discover how focusing on core values, mission, and vision can drive your brand beyond mere marketing tactics, fostering a culture that resonates with your audience and enhances your business's reputation.
Inspired by the concept of the Hummingbird Effect—where small, adaptive changes lead to remarkable outcomes—this podcast aims to help you understand and implement the incremental innovations that can elevate your brand and business.
Join Wendy Coulter on "The Hummingbird Effect" and learn how to evolve your brand, attract more customers, and ultimately enhance the value of your business through strategic branding.
[00:00:00] [00:00:15] Hi, I'm Wendy. Culture and I help CEOs and marketing [00:00:30] leaders unlock the power of their brands. For years, business leaders have focused on marketing tactics, but what truly matters is building a strong brand.
Wendy: Think of it like the Hummingbird Effect. Small innovations in branding can lead [00:00:45] to surprisingly big results, increased valuation, a stronger culture, and a marketing message that resonates. Welcome to the show today, I have Hannah Jernigan with me, as usual. Yes. She's our marketing coordinator from Hummingbird Creative [00:01:00] Group.
Good morning, Hannah. Good morning. How are you? Oh, I'm good. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Um, we were talking before the show about. What kind of sports you do in college? Oh, timber sports. My deepest secret. [00:01:15] Yeah. We're gonna have to unpack that over time. What was your most memorable moment in timber sports in college?
Hanna: First of all, going to the woods. I, that was out of pocket for me but I, [00:01:30] I don't even know what it's called anymore. It was the ax throwing right into the bullseye. Everyone was like, who is this girl? In your heels.
Wendy: In my heels. Look a red. It was embarrassing. Okay. Well, and, and that has [00:01:45] nothing to do with the show, but you dropped that on me.
Mike: Did you have trouble getting a date after that? Oh
Hanna: no. I was dating one of the people there, so I secured him. I think
Wendy: so. Um, we'll, we'll unpack [00:02:00] more about that in the future. Great. Um, but anyway, so today we have Mike Gainey with us and I'm, I'm super excited to have Mike on the show. I actually interviewed Mike, um, quite a few years ago.
It's probably been 10 years ago [00:02:15] for a video block that we were doing at the time. And, um, you had just, I believe, begun. Working at House Autry at the time. Mm-hmm. So that goes back a while and maybe we'll get some [00:02:30] updates on some of your time with, with those brands, um, today. But I'd love for you to just tell our listeners some of your background and, um, what you're doing today as well.
Mike: Thank you. Thank you both. [00:02:45] It's fun to talk. I love talking about marketing 'cause it's still top of mind with me. I, um, I didn't intend to go into marketing. I thought I was gonna go into B2B sales after going to business [00:03:00] school and went to work for Anheuser-Busch in St. Louis. Got the marketing bug, got involved on a skunkworks team of eight people that was tasked with developing [00:03:15] diversification opportunities for the company that were all non-alcoholic.
So we looked at. This is back in 78. Wow. We were looking at bottled water and soft drinks for adults. [00:03:30] Um, we looked at, ended up launching beer on tap shampoo with Bristol Myers.
Joe: Okay.
Mike: We we looked at a variety of categories and, um, number one that turned me on to [00:03:45] marketing because we had to take everything from concept all the way through test markets and recommendations to the board and senior management every step of the way.
And the other thing it taught me [00:04:00] was to think holistically about marketing. And we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. So, my career, real quickly, I worked for Anheuser-Busch for several years in marketing. I headed up marketing for Balson, [00:04:15] um, one of the largest cookie companies in Europe. Where I used my German language skills.
Um, some people wouldn't call them skills if they were Germans, but to me they were skills. Um, and I [00:04:30] developed an appreciation for, especially for understanding the value of understanding the consumer in different countries cross borders. And then if, if you take that learning back to the US it's more about [00:04:45] segmenting your au the value of segmenting your audience and knowing exactly who you need to be talking to.
So after that I went to work for Howard Maryland Partners, which was, um, [00:05:00] we positioned ourselves as strategists who do great creative. And with my background, of course, I worked on the account management side. I also did business development and [00:05:15] managed, um. Most, some of the consumer brands that came in.
So we did work new, develop new product development work for Coors. We did a lot of work with Kimberly Clark, Georgia [00:05:30] Pacific, BB and t. So we had a mix of national, regional and some local brands, and a handful of startups. We didn't make as good a fit with startups as I had hoped we would. But, [00:05:45] after that, I retired for about three months and then went to work for the American Kennel Club.
Yes, I was gonna talk to them. I talked to them about a consulting [00:06:00] assignment, and the next day I got hired. I came in as a director looking at the world of pure bred dogs from the breeders' perspective. Because it was distribution [00:06:15] oriented, which if you understand food distribution, you understand distribution of most anything.
Okay. So dog distribution, imagine that. And after being there two months, the VP of [00:06:30] marketing left. So I took over all the marketing, um, all of consumer research, um, all product development, and I traveled to New [00:06:45] York every month for board presentations. And the dog world is a unique world. We'll just leave it at that.
If you've seen the movie Best in Show mm-hmm. You have a pretty good handle on what the [00:07:00] A KC was like. A lot of really passionate, passionate people. And I.
Wendy: So that's not crazy reality tv. That's real reality tv. It's pretty close. Yeah. Okay.
Mike: It's so close. I mentioned as an [00:07:15] analogy. So then marketing got moved to New York after two years I left and, retired the second time for three months.
And, um, [00:07:30] a recruiter spotted me on LinkedIn about a position with House Autry Mills down in Four Oaks. And the, um, the board had asked the CEO to hire somebody with marketing experience to come in [00:07:45] because they felt that the consumer was being neglected or not getting all the attention they needed in strategic decisions.
So I interviewed with A CEO and got hired the next week. And I worked [00:08:00] there four years as an employee and a, and a year as a consultant. Wrapping up. Pretty major, um, innovation initiative. We're gonna talk about that too.
Wendy: Okay.
Mike: So then I retired the [00:08:15] third time and I've been doing some, some volunteer work.
I, teach or I teach, I moderate a foreign policy eight session course [00:08:30] at osha lifelong learning at NC State. Oh, nice. For adults, 50 plus. And I really, I, I tell everybody up front real quickly, I'm not the subject matter expert, but if you've run focus groups, you can [00:08:45] moderate a group. And the participants in the class just amaze me at their level of engagement in current affairs.
Um. Last thing I did was [00:09:00] co-author a, a strategic plan for our church.
Wendy: Oh, nice.
Mike: And I get involved in Habitat, um, but um, I got as, as my wife described me, I'm the [00:09:15] sheep dog with, with no sheep right now. So, I'm looking at targeting private equity firms, which own small food and beverage companies that could need some help with either due [00:09:30] diligence product innovation or marketing efficiency.
So I'm gonna see where that takes me.
Wendy: That's awesome.
Mike: And I'm living proof that age is no barrier to having fun and doing good work. [00:09:45]
Wendy: Well in your, um, your agency got like through and through too, even though that's only been a part of your, your journey. I think just always from talking to you, I [00:10:00] think the agency world made an impact on your outlook on marketing and what you've been able to do for the brands.
So,
Mike: you know, that's a really good point. I had an appreciation for brands up to that [00:10:15] point, but we, we drilled as deeply as any human being on earth into what brands really mean. Yeah. And the importance of making emotional connections with your audience, [00:10:30] not just filling their heads with features that may or may not be relevant, but connecting on a gut level so that when they hear your message, experience your brand.
They, they immediately get warm all [00:10:45] over and, and feel that it's right for them or conversely it's not for them, which is okay, right? Because that means we did a good job targeting and positioning. So, absolutely. Yeah. That's a really good point. I, um,[00:11:00]
I think that, branding's kind of branding has kind of taken a beating, 'cause it sounds like soft power in the foreign policy space, but it's [00:11:15] really one of the last sources of competitive advantage. Given the open internet driven world we live in. There are almost no secrets, right? So how are you gonna compete?
Brand is still the high ground and [00:11:30] it always will be in my view, right? Absolutely. Unless you sell into robots.
Wendy: Well, we might be, we might not even know it. Um, so I wanna delve on into [00:11:45] Hummingbird effect a little bit. Mm-hmm. And just ask you to take me to an instance that you remember where you saw a very seemingly small change that you made in a marketing [00:12:00] initiative or strategy that really led to a big change in a different area of the business.
Um, my guess is you have a ton of stories to tell, um, but what really stands out in this area? [00:12:15]
Mike: I think I'd have to go back to the last thing I did for House Autry. Um, the, um, the ma the making of the, the milling of corn and wheat and [00:12:30] mixing it with seasonings. For fried foods, that business is on the decline.
Um, in restaurants. It still holds Yeah, pretty steady because they've repositioned it as crispy chicken instead of fried chicken, [00:12:45] which I thought was pretty masterful, but as a short term strategy, but long term, um, consumers are far more aware of health issues and they're staying away from fried food.
And that's what House Autry [00:13:00] built. Its 200 plus year heritage on.
Wendy: That's right.
Mike: So what do you do? So the CEO and I got together on more than one occasion to talk about new products, and, um, two things [00:13:15] happened. I'm gonna share two stories with you, and they're both relevant. I, I believe, or you be the judge of that.
Um, the first one was Walmart was our largest single retail customer. We were in about 1200 [00:13:30] stores out of 4,600. And, um, the sales manager and I were talking one time and we were talking about developing, you know, needing some new items. The buyer was [00:13:45] very hungry to do something innovative in her section, and so he said, well, you know, what new products could we develop?
So we um, had a little, um, conference room meeting one [00:14:00] time, and we came up with 25 new ideas, and I'll share some examples of that in a second. But the next step was I decided to take a. [00:14:15] A decidedly unfinished, unvarnished approach to presenting these concepts to the buyer so that she would have some ownership in this and feel like we co-developed these.
So I asked [00:14:30] our agency to do pencil sketches of the concepts, and we had four or five words describing the concept, and that was it. So we went into the meeting in Bentonville [00:14:45] and um, I'll never forget, she says, so what do you got for me today? Sales manager says, well, Mike has 25 new product ideas we'd like to share with you.
She goes, alright, I'll take a look at them. So she's put [00:15:00] the page in front of her. She starts thumbing through. I'm explaining 1, 2, 4, 5. She says, wait a second, wait a second. So she pulls the staple out and goes, man, I love this. That's a keeper. That one. [00:15:15] Let's put that in the middle. That one I don't have any interest in at all.
And she totally bought into 14 or 15 new items.
Wendy: Awesome.
Mike: And she said, I'd like to see these [00:15:30] when we do our review for the shelf sets in 10 weeks, I'd like to see, I wanna see products, packaging, pricing, the whole nine yards. So we For
Wendy: 15 products? Yeah. [00:15:45] Wow. 15
Mike: products. And we go, okay. So back to the plant.
Fired up, the r and d team. Got with our packaging suppliers, worked with the [00:16:00] agency on designs. Within nine weeks we were back out in Bentonville. Sales manager was out front with her. I was in back frying blueberry hush [00:16:15] puppies with powdered sugar on
Joe: them. Wow.
Mike: And we had a couple people from r and d in the kitchen making up some products, and the result was we got every one of those items [00:16:30] on shelf nationally.
Wendy: Wow.
Mike: So our dis distribution went from 10 to 12 items in 1200 stores to 20 items in 4,600 stores.
Wendy: So what do you [00:16:45] think the key to that was with her having her be a part of the process of choosing the items as opposed to just showing her the top three or four?
Mike: So the key [00:17:00] with a buyer and any situation is to co-develop the product with the people that you're targeting. And this applies to consumer and B2B spaces as well. You know who you want to [00:17:15] target because they have a particular profile that appeals to you and your company.
Um, so why not shortcut the process by getting immediate feedback from them every step of the [00:17:30] way? It has to be iterative here. Try this. Hannah, what do you think of that? What needs to be changed? Take it back. Make some changes. Okay, Hannah, we are back again. The key is to keep going back to the same group of [00:17:45] people and to do that you develop expert panels.
You might do a focus group to test a concept initially, and then the moderator and the observers will [00:18:00] spot two or three people who really have a handle and are articulate on what you're talking about. So invite them to come back almost on a retainer basis to be part of the process. [00:18:15] And they're not gonna lie to you.
That's the best part. Right? Um, so for me, the hummingbird moment was co-developing products with the people you're trying [00:18:30] to influence. In this case, we were pretty comfortable knowing our customer base. That these products we presented had a good chance of appealing to them. [00:18:45] [00:19:00]
Hanna: So earlier [00:19:15] you mentioned, um, from I believe the cookie company, you, um, took away the value of learning about the customers in other countries. Can you kind of talk to how that played into the decision you made here with this [00:19:30] specific buyer and the decision that you made, if it did play into it at all?
Mike: Um, working for an international food company is interesting because in general it's challenging to adapt, [00:19:45] um, cookies in particular to the taste of an individual country. Mm-hmm. So there's some averaging that goes on. You try to find the sweet spot that appeals to the most consumers in the most environments.[00:20:00]
And, um, that involves compromise, negotiation, and collaboration, both at the r and d level and at the country manager level. Each of these country managers are [00:20:15] responsible for sales in their territory, and they pretty much know what they want. And if they're only gonna get 80% of what they want it, it can lead to some conflict.
Um, in our case, we, [00:20:30] there was no substitute for face-to-face meetings mm-hmm. To talk about product development. In the case of Balson, they had a seasonal gift tin business that was big. Mm-hmm. And the lead times on getting the [00:20:45] tins, gearing up production with the trays and the products and. Where it's gonna be produced and how you get all this variety into one location and get it into one box efficiently is quite a challenge.
Right? [00:21:00] So our, our job, really, my job working with country managers and country marketing managers was to come up on a consensus mix and get the right flavor profiles for the cookies [00:21:15] that went in there. to me it was just a good example again, of understanding your audience, right? There's no substitute for understanding your audience, whether it's the person who's going to buy and eat the cookie or the retailer [00:21:30] you have to sell through, or the country manager you have to negotiate with to get it on the shelf
Hanna: with the buyer at Walmart.
What gave you the insight to know that this is how. She would react best or did you not [00:21:45] know? Was it just you needed something to work? So you threw it at the wall and it did stick?
Mike: It, it, I, I think it was more of a gut feeling. Mm-hmm. We had, we had, the sales guy and I had called on her before, and [00:22:00] you could tell that the buyers there tended to stay six months to nine months and then rotate into a different category.
Joe: Okay.
Mike: So we knew we had a short fuse, but she was [00:22:15] different than most any other buyer I had called on at Walmart or Sam's because she was interested in shaking up the category, not rearranging the shelf sets mm-hmm. For optimal profit. She left that to the [00:22:30] merchandising team. So, um, I like get, I, I like getting people excited about ideas.
I. Her pressure point was new products. I felt there was an opportunity to create [00:22:45] excitement and, um, because we had a short time, we couldn't be developing full perfect package concepts and final products. We had to get her involved in the screening if we were gonna do this sprint mm-hmm. [00:23:00] Before she left the job.
So it was a combination of insights about her behavior mm-hmm. And reading her and the time pressure we were under. Right. Given her tenure. So it's a combination of business pressure and, [00:23:15]
Hanna: and
Mike: just observational just tuning into the people you're communicating with. It's what you do every day. Anyhow,
Hanna: you had mentioned that you had two hummingbird effects, a little treat for us. Can you share your other one?
Mike: Um, yeah. This one is, [00:23:30] this one isn't exactly. A brand experience, but when I started at Anheuser-Busch, I had a job description marketing manager. And, um, I read the job description [00:23:45] and my job was to make sure, I thought my job was to complete the checklist on the assigned duties.
So I tried to do the very best I could at each of those things on that review. [00:24:00] Um, after I left Anheuser-Busch and went to work for Balson, um, I was a director for the Austin Quality Foods brand initially, [00:24:15] and then within a year I was pro promoted to VP marketing over the Balson brand and Austin. And I got a seat on the management committee.
The management committee was [00:24:30] 12 people that were. Either senior directors or VPs. And we met monthly to review financials, talk about everything that was going on operationally, stem to stern in the company. [00:24:45] And I had an aha moment in one of those meetings where I realized that to be the most effective in my job, I had to view marketing through a general management consultant lens.[00:25:00]
I had to make sure that marketing was seen as the linchpin in the company's future. And the way to do that was for me to fully understand, how I could, [00:25:15] through marketing, add value to finance purchasing. Operations, distribution, packaging design, packaging structures, r [00:25:30] and d innovation. And that led me to view marketing rather than as a discipline that fits on the org chart, but more as a hub within the [00:25:45] company.
And I, and it became over time, the go-to place for information for people in various areas.
Wendy: I mean, I think that's so important, Mike, for any [00:26:00] marketing leader, especially young marketing leaders to understand today as well, is how much marketing impacts every area of the business. How much it can impact mm-hmm.
Every area of the business. [00:26:15] And I think a lot of leaders who are not in the marketing space don't realize the value that marketing minds can bring. Um, but then I think a lot of marketing leaders don't realize their true [00:26:30] value in the other spaces of the company. Mm-hmm. And how they can bring innovation in a different way to think about finance or a different way to think about the placement of a product and the consumer's [00:26:45] minds that impacts the pride that an employee has and what they're doing every day.
Mm-hmm. Um, and this is truly, to me, connected to Hummingbird Effect. Um, the way I look at it, [00:27:00] because it is this impact that goes into different areas of business that most people just don't think about. So I think that's, that's really neat that you bring that up. [00:27:15] Um, talk to me about kind of the results in each case, but we'll stay on this particular example, the, the results that you saw as the, [00:27:30] um, as you kind of flowed that philosophy out and engaged with the other parts of the company.
Mike: Hmm. Um, well first of all, it gave me an education into [00:27:45] how the other departments function.
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Right down to the nitty gritty daily stuff. And for me, they were my target audience. I needed to understand them, I needed to do my [00:28:00] own research. Right. And then each of these people all have different personalities, so you have to appeal to each of them in different ways.
So like a multi-channel communications plan. Um, [00:28:15] and by getting to know them, appreciate their challenges and try to relieve their pain by giving them information that would make them more effective, they became friends and they would come [00:28:30] and help me out with things like a heads up on, we're changing our shipping cartons structure, or we're having problems with a flower.
It has too much protein. The the crackers are too thick. They won't fit in the shipping [00:28:45] cartons, which actually happened once. Um, by doing that, it helped build a more cohesive management team. It also helped with aligning energy [00:29:00] behind new product initiatives where it had been a hard sell early on because.
The way the bakery was set up, it was built up for long runs of single products. Last thing they want is somebody coming in [00:29:15] with five new products that you're gonna require line changeovers and downtime, right? Because they're measured on efficiency. So we had to negotiate quite a bit of that to get some new products tested in the marketplace.[00:29:30]
Um, the other thing is that I think it helped, I hope that it helped the rest of the management team take a more strategic planning view of where the company could go. [00:29:45] Um, and by that I mean really trying to plot a course forward rather than just seeing where a certain account or some products can take you.
Um, it's all [00:30:00] about, I, I think it has comes down to intentionality. Um. Know exactly why you're making every decision you do and getting people on board to understand why you're making those [00:30:15] calls. Um, the results the company grew from 96 to 300 million in seven years. We did it with, which aren't, now this is gonna [00:30:30] sound dirt simple, but one of the key products that I proposed was a variety pack of cracker sandwiches for moms who are looking for kids want variety, right?
But they want the same thing and then they [00:30:45] want variety at the same time. Go figure that one out. Um, and we used to produce trays with eight or 12 or 24 cracker sandwiches. So I said, how about doing a 12 pack [00:31:00] variety pack? Well. The bakery wasn't set up for it. It was set up for long process, long runs.
Highly automated to do that. Required a pick and place operation at the [00:31:15] end of the line where you run all these products into bulk boxes. Then you have to have human beings pick them up, put them in the tray, run 'em through the over wrap, hand pack them, run 'em through the tape [00:31:30] machine, palletize them, take them to the warehouse.
And there was tremendous resistance and operations and finance were worried about the cost. And that's all I heard about was the cost. So I said, we're gonna [00:31:45] make this the highest margin item in the line. We're gonna price it accordingly. We're given consumers what they want. They should be able to pay more for it, be willing to pay more for it.
So we did. Within a year, [00:32:00] it was one of the highest margin items in the product lineup. And all of a sudden they figured out even more efficient ways to do pick and place. Yeah. At the back end in the warehouse. So,
Wendy: [00:32:15] and that was such a simple idea, right? Such a simple idea using product that already existed.
It wasn't a new, a whole new product line or anything like that.
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Wendy: But you had the foresight to say, people are willing, [00:32:30] will be willing to pay more and it made such an impact on the company.
Mike: Yeah.
Wendy: Yeah,
Mike: it did. And our competitors quickly got into variety packs as well. Um,
Wendy: so how much more margin could you have on a variety pack than on a [00:32:45] regular pack of 12?
Mike: We had, we priced it up 25. I can't recall. It was 25 or 28% higher. Wow. Per cracker sandwich on a regular straight pack.
Wendy: I guess the consumer's not really standing there going, well, if [00:33:00] I buy this, it's this much. If I buy this.
Hanna: Well, you're thinking, do I, if I buy all five of these to make what's in the variety pack.
Exactly.
Mike: And they'll go stale by the time I get through
Hanna: it. Right? Right.
Mike: I think marketers, many marketers have a fear [00:33:15] of price increases. That's absolutely the wrong end of the pipe to be looking through. They need to be looking through the value end of the pipe. If you're adding more value, consumers are willing to pay for it.[00:33:30]
If you're not, you're in deep trouble. It's viewed as a price increase, but if, if you can ab, absolutely scratch an itch. Um, and my last thought is even [00:33:45] better if you can, if you can satisfy an unarticulated consumer need. The kinds of things they can't tell you about that they want because they don't know how to say it.
If you can identify [00:34:00] those and fulfill those unarticulated needs, you've got an insight that your competitors will never have. Absolutely. Because most companies do new product development pretty much along the same lines. [00:34:15] Some like, get in a conference room, let's throw stuff against the wall. Let's have fun.
Everybody gets a squeezy ball and post-it notes and crayons and it's third grade. Yeah, you can get an I [00:34:30] good idea out of that, but it's generally a waste of time in my view. I sound like the critical parent here. It's enough of that kids put those crayolas away. Um, the other way is [00:34:45] many companies are run by left brain marketers who believe process is king.
Oh, Stagegate. It's been around only 30 years, but we found a way to adapt Stagegate for our company. [00:35:00] And all it is, is it's a linear approach to product development that may or may not get you where you want to be, but it, it helps the thumb suckers in marketing by making them feel good when they hit milestone A at the end of stage [00:35:15] one and milestone B at the end of stage three.
You know, they can show a sheet of paper to the boss and say, Ooh, look, the pipeline is really alive, and look at all the products that are in there. That isn't the way to do innovation. [00:35:30] Innovation involves scratching the needs of, of unarticulated needs of consumers, and that was the biggest insight I had right at the very end of my career.
Wendy: So [00:35:45] talk more about that. Let's talk about innovation because. You've alluded a couple of times to having a different perspective on innovation today than what you used to have. Um, and I think innovation is such a hot [00:36:00] button right now. Mm-hmm. Um, you've got innovation in the sense of so many changes in technology in the world, and then you've got innovation of thought and diverse, um, applications of thought.
So talk to [00:36:15] me about that path that you've gone down and how you see innovation playing a role in really impacting a lot of different areas of business.
Mike: Mm-hmm. I think you just highlighted the great [00:36:30] bifurcation One is companies sitting around inventing something and saying, Hey, look what we made. And then somebody says, I wonder who we could sell it to.
That can work. In some [00:36:45] cases it can work. Sometimes you get lucky. Generally, companies spin their wheels doing that. The other approach is to, again, I'm a broken record, go to the people you ultimately want [00:37:00] to sell to. And then, um, what we did at House Autry, and I thought it was really for me, it was innovative,
We embedded focus group moderators, people that were good with [00:37:15] body language and understanding of what was going on. We lined up five or six families in our target demographics. We got them to agree to allow this person to be in their home from six in the morning [00:37:30] until 11 o'clock at night.
And. They watched as everybody got up. The mad scramble for breakfast, the scramble to get lunches together for the kids, [00:37:45] try to get 'em off to school, either for the bus or in the car and in the van. And away we go. Um, wives worried about what their husbands were going to eat for lunch. That was a major concern.
[00:38:00] Um, we had two researchers go with, um, women who were doing the weekly grocery shopping just to observe how they shopped, ask them questions, why they made those decisions, bring [00:38:15] that information back. We watched, they watched from four o'clock till seven o'clock. The craziness of trying to get satisfy the needs of three kids and two adults who [00:38:30] all have different flavor preferences that night.
What do you wanna do? I want pizza. I want chili. I wanna sell it. I'm gluten-free, I'm vegan. So through observational research, [00:38:45] we brought all the findings back and put them into three or four buckets, and one is convenience. There's always a need for [00:39:00] convenience now, more than ever. So how can you make that person's job easier in the kitchen, simple or on shelf?
Is there a packaging configuration that might, [00:39:15] that they're, they're complaining about the packaging, right? There might be something different you could do there. Um, so that led us to five totally different product concepts from anything how Autry had done [00:39:30] before and. Our target was millennials. We wanted to target people that were young enough that, that we could grow the brand with them over time, [00:39:45] whereas targeting the fried food segment is 55 plus light blue collar rural consumers.
And that business was dying, so we knew we [00:40:00] couldn't ride that horse too much longer. So we developed these five new product concepts and developed packaging for I think four of 'em. And then right at, in the middle of all of that was when I, [00:40:15] I walked away and that was the end of my consulting arrangement.
Wendy: So a couple of questions along those lines. First of all, tell us about the products. What were the five new products?
Mike: I'll tell you about a couple of 'em. Okay. [00:40:30] Because they haven't developed,
Wendy: okay.
Mike: They've, none of, first of all, none of them have made it to market.
Wendy: Okay.
Mike: Um, one was, well, what is the core competency?
Core competency of House Autry? They've, [00:40:45] they use literal grinding stones to grind up wheat and corn, add spices, use it for fried food. So grinding stuff up is a core skill. So we developed a line of powdered cocktail mixes. [00:41:00] Hired one of the leading bartenders in Chicago to develop recipes. Took them to the lab, had them emulated through flavor technology, created powders, lined up a co-packer, [00:41:15] developed the packaging, lined up distribution, had sales materials ready, all set to go.
So that was one. The idea was. For people on the go. You go on a, you go on a flight and you want an old fashioned, well, [00:41:30] nobody's going to give you an old fashioned on a flight, but if you've got these mixes, all you gotta do is order your liquor, mix your own drink on the plane, for impromptu parties where [00:41:45] you don't know what everybody wants and you don't have eight blenders or, all, all the ingredients.
You've got 'em all. You got the variety to meet the needs of 80% of the requirements for your party. So [00:42:00] I still think that's a big idea.
Joe: Yeah, others
Mike: have capitalized on it. In some ways. They've dibbled around the edges, but nobody's really taken it full. 10 out of 10 the way we did. [00:42:15] The other area that is still unfulfilled is crockpot seasoning packets.
One of the, and, and I'll take this from insight to product. The [00:42:30] insight was mothers in particular who are working mothers have a tremendous amount of heavy lifting every morning with the kids and everything else that's going on. [00:42:45] And they've gotta be thinking ahead about dinner 'cause they're gonna come home from work exhausted and then have to get a meal on the table.
Crockpots are perfect for that. Get it all set up in the morning, turn [00:43:00] it on, mix up the seasonings in there. Away you go. So, we developed, the concept was around two or three different seasoning packets. I can't exactly recall the flavors right now, [00:43:15] but that's an example of linking the unarticulated insight.
Adding variety to the crockpot flavors to meet the needs of really active moms. [00:43:30] Um, the third idea was a, um, a really almost a prescription energy bar that had it scratched every purity and [00:43:45] health benefit ri itch you could imagine.
And the other, the other products, I, I honestly can't recall what they were. That was a few years ago. But I, I think, I, I think the crockpot is, is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. [00:44:00] If, if you interviewed moms in a focus group and you said, you know, what new products do you need? I. What is it that's missing outta your life?
Nobody's gonna raise their hand and say, Hey, I'd really like five new crockpot [00:44:15] seasoning packets.
Wendy: Right?
Mike: But through observational ethnographic research where you embed your researchers to live a day in the shoes of the people you want to influence, you can't lose. [00:44:30]
Wendy: Well, and I think this is something, um, the market research piece of this and the insights that you get from customers and potential customers is so valuable.
And I think a lot of, um, [00:44:45] brands miss the mark because they skip that piece. That could be a cost thing, a time thing. They think it's going to take too long to get the research done, or they think that that's going to cost a lot. But then at the end of the day, [00:45:00] the solutions are so much more tailored to what the customer needs that it should make up.
The difference, right? Because you're going to market with something that you can have more confidence in, um, you know that it's going to meet the need [00:45:15] of the customer.
Mike: Yeah. It's, it's a risk management strategy,
Wendy: right?
Mike: You can either, you can either guess and get hit by bad financial surprises on the back end when the product dies,
Wendy: right?
Mike: Or you can manage the risk [00:45:30] upfront and, and the other to your spending point where people don't have brands, don't have enough money. Don't have enough money. I always, I always make the case. I try [00:45:45] to make the case that you always spend against the opportunity, get a handle on what the potential is for this product in terms of dollar sales and margin, and then that should drive how much you invest [00:46:00] in the concept.
So it involves that holistic piece. You've gotta be able to run the financials, the proformas, to understand how much margin potential that product has, so that you speak that [00:46:15] language to the finance person and the board when you go in to make your pitch. So again, it argues for the, the holistic view of marketing as a general management strategic function.
Wendy: So [00:46:30] if you are given advice based on what you've learned from this process today, what's your number one piece of advice
Mike: to success? I would say every marketing leader should view [00:46:45] themselves as a consultant, not an employee. Pretend you don't need a job. Pretend you've been hired to go in and offer this company the best advice you can.
If you do that, [00:47:00] you're gonna be successful. Or you're in the wrong company and you're gonna find out pretty quick. But to me, there's if, if you can approach every, in fact, this applies, I guess, to every job. If you [00:47:15] never, if you view yourself as a consultant rather than an employee, imagine how, how many more degrees of freedom you have in offering insight and advice to the people you're trying to influence.[00:47:30]
Wendy: That's great. That's great. Um, so talk to me about, we're in, we're in an environment, you've seen so many changes over the years being in marketing. What do you believe is the [00:47:45] key for companies in terms of like staying nimble and embracing change and, um, being able to stay competitive with the changes that you've seen in the marketplace?[00:48:00]
Mike: Um. As a consultant, first piece of advice is don't fall in love with tools. That is such a marketing weakness. I see. All I see is write-ups about [00:48:15] how I'm using HubSpot and all these other tools. I don't care about the tools. I wanna know how the engine runs when you get done working on it. Yeah, so lose the fascination with tools.
[00:48:30] Never lose sight of who it is you're trying to influence. That's the first task in every piece of communication you write, every plan you put together, every product you recommend, every competitive [00:48:45] situation. Make sure you understand who it is you're trying to influence and try to get insights from them that your competitors don't have.
That's how you get to the competitive high ground. Don't lose sight of your [00:49:00] customers. It's B2B. It's B2B. You're still trying to influence people, right? The buyers, the key decision makers in any company. Whether it's you're making nuclear reactors or gears. Um, somebody's gotta make the call. [00:49:15]
Wendy: Why do we think this gets missed so often in marketing?
'cause if you go to marketing 1 0 1, it's always know the target customer, know the need, [00:49:30] lead with the need, not the idea, right? Understand what they're really looking for and what they need yet, I think, um, so many brands still miss that vote. Why do you think that is?
Mike: I think there's still a [00:49:45] perception among many companies that marketing is a nice to have, not a must have, because the marketers haven't demonstrated their real value.
If that team can show [00:50:00] measurable results from what they're doing and a path forward to enhance that through the proper investments over time, the company's gonna be better off over the long haul. [00:50:15] But when I talk to people who who don't know anything about marketing, they think it's advertising, they think it's Twitter, acts, Facebook, blue Sky, God knows what else.[00:50:30]
And the, the media does a horrible job. Conflating marketing and sales. Um, marketing. I used to tell my marketing staff that [00:50:45] marketing is not sales. Marketing is everything that leads up, excuse me. Marketing is everything that enables the sale to take place,
Wendy: right.
Mike: Right. So if you go to that high ground, you [00:51:00] understand your job.
But marketing has taken a bad name. It's, it's become shorthand for, sleazy, underhanded business practices. Oh, it's marketing. Slight of hand. [00:51:15] Oh, look, the marketers took the weight down, but kept the price the same. They hit a price increase from us. Consumers only notice that during times of inflation, it goes on all the time.
Commodity prices [00:51:30] fluctuate. Companies have to do it because if you try to change a price point with a retailer, you could get thrown out. So companies have to deal with what they have. But marketing, marketing has taken, i, I, [00:51:45] marketing has not gotten the, the center spotlight that I think it does. It, it could have in part because it hasn't earned it.
Anything you want outta life, you've gotta earn. So it's, I'm, I'm looking for [00:52:00] marketers to step it up, be more strategic and demonstrate their value to their management shareholders.
Hanna: Yeah, that was something you said earlier that really stood out. We hear it all the time that you don't get buy-in [00:52:15] from the people that make the financial decisions in a company, from a marketing perspective.
But you, you're so good at knowing your target audience. It's the first thing that I've really pulled out. Um, and you took that into your business [00:52:30] side of it. So do you have any insight as to how to keep all the different target audiences in the day to day from getting your team, the people that have to buy into your decisions, to [00:52:45] then go make the decision for the buyers, how to keep them all separate and intentional as you go?
Mike: I found that, that me taking the voice of the consumer in any [00:53:00] communications that I did with my team mm-hmm. Got them into a consumer mindset. Um, and the other, the other thing is transparency sharing insights company-wide gives [00:53:15] you gotta give people a chance to understand what you're trying to do.
So they're smart enough. They wouldn't have their job as CFO unless they had some brains. Share the information with them, bring it up at meetings, explain it, answer their [00:53:30] questions. This is why we're doing what we're doing. All the barriers disappear then. Um, if you're not as, as marketers, if you're not in love, I.
With your target audience and know everything you can [00:53:45] po it's like dating. You gotta know everything you can about them. You can't know too much. You can't know too much.
Hanna: As you're going into consult in these companies and you are realizing that it's more of a communication between the different departments.[00:54:00]
Do you know why? Like, have you found some sort of consistency as to why marketing hasn't been talking to them in a way that like in the language that they speak, like what, what changes are you making when you go in there? [00:54:15]
Mike: I don't think many marketers understand the value they can provide.
Wendy: Right.
Mike: If they understood it, that'd be the first thing they'd be talking about every conversation.
The other thing [00:54:30] is. One of the most valuable courses I took in business school was called a and c Analysis and communication, and one Monday a month at eight o'clock, [00:54:45] I had to show up and do a 10 minute speech on a topic that was given to me Friday afternoon at four. My first speech was on how a beehive works.
What's that got to do with business school? [00:55:00] What it taught me to do was to quickly research a topic, find something that's interesting, that engaging in there, and then present it in a way that was compelling and kept the audience attention. All that time [00:55:15] presentation, there's no, there's no substitute for presentation skills, whether it's written on a sheet of paper or a standup PowerPoint or just a, or just speaking up.
[00:55:30] In a management meeting. Um, I think we have heads down marketers in many cases right now who are worried about their job, and the first thing they need to do is look in the mirror and [00:55:45] say, how would you explain the value you add to yourself? And then tighten that message up and take it elsewhere.
Wendy: Well, and I think marketers are held to ROI [00:56:00] discussions mm-hmm.
Around the things that are easily measurable, which oftentimes, back to the hummingbird effect, that's not where the value is. It's not necessarily, [00:56:15] the value of marketing is not just the top line revenue. It is efficient, it can be efficiency, it can be tweaking the price points. It can be things that you.
Don't think about being marketing, [00:56:30] that marketing can give insight to, that can improve a business. And so I think sometimes, I know I do it as a agency owner if I'm not hitting the goals that the, the [00:56:45] clients are saying, right. Like the sales team is, has not been able to meet the goals this year. Mm-hmm.
For just an example. Well, to your point is that marketing's fault, it gets pointed back to be [00:57:00] part of marketing. I mean, I've, I've had people on this show who are like, marketing's number one goal is that it creates leads and it grows sales, you know, well, there's a lot of other things that impact sales other than [00:57:15] marketing.
And so you can't say that across the. Across the, um, you can't say that that's the only goal of marketing. So how do we find value points to even express to [00:57:30] ourselves as marketers to help us realize what our impact really is beyond what the financial people say or what is, is being stated in the boardroom when it just comes to [00:57:45] revenue goals?
Mike: Hmm. Every business operates in a competitive environment and market share is the key measure. Are you getting share of mind? Are you [00:58:00] getting share of wallet? Is that translating into shelf space?
Is it translating into increased orders? Are we actually meeting the needs of the people we're trying to influence? [00:58:15] So how does a marketer justify their existence? When you talk to the finance people, sometimes it is an ROI discussion. When you talk to hr, it's about developing the managers [00:58:30] and having a succession plan.
That is not a stage gate process. Thank you very much. When you talk to distribution, it's about packaging graphics. How is it, are, [00:58:45] are, are your marketing people in charge of the packaging designs of the shipping cartons? Really keeping the warehouse people in mind. You got a lowlight environment, black ink on a brown cardboard box [00:59:00] and it's eight feet off the ground.
No wonder orders get mis shipped. Marketing can, marketing can make changes that ripple through the company. That's the other hummingbird effect. Yes. Right. So if you understand the challenges [00:59:15] in every department, you can demonstrate value to each of them before you ever get to the CEO. So it's not hard.
Go back to basics. Who are you trying to [00:59:30] influence, and then how do you reach them the most effective
Wendy: way? Yeah. I love, I love your, your approach to just making sure that marketing leaders remember who they are, touching at all levels. Yeah. [00:59:45] I think that's, mm-hmm. That's a great key from this.
Mike: Don't wait for praise right here.
Every interface you have is a selling situation. Sell it, get credit for it, and [01:00:00] remind them again the next time you see him. You're a storyteller, all marketer, all really good Marketers are storytellers. Tell your story. You've worked awful hard to get it together. Take credit for it. [01:00:15]
Wendy: Awesome.
Hanna: Thank
Wendy: you
Mike: Jeff.
Fun. You have
Hanna: questions? Yeah. Um, no, I don't have any more questions. Just a big takeaway that I wanted to share just 'cause there was a lot of good information, but something you said earlier really [01:00:30] stuck with me of taking it back to what House Autry is, which they grind things. And I mean, you do you think past that?
You think of the the product you make and you wanna evaluate that [01:00:45] product, but you just took the simplest look at what you do and said, okay, we don't have to grind, just. This. Um, and so that really stuck out to me and then it kind of pulled back to the very, one of the very first things you said, which was, [01:01:00] having a competitive marketing in your brand is one of the only ways to stay competitive.
So just a reminder to really step back when you're in it deep and just look at the very beginnings. 'cause you're, if you've set a good foundation, the answers are [01:01:15] there. You just have to know to look for 'em.
Mike: Yeah. Um, I'd like to go back to, yeah. One of your earlier observations and it's this one, one of the things I failed to mention is that I think one of the key, every [01:01:30] marketers, one of their key task is to make the complex simple.
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Mike: What we do is really confusing to people who don't have a marketing background. They don't understand what we're doing. They [01:01:45] don't know why we're doing it. So what we have to do. Is rather than take 'em through every slide from a hundred question quantitative survey and show them the charts, we gotta tell 'em [01:02:00] upfront what we learned from it in very simple, clear, understandable words.
So one of, one of my last mantras I'll leave you with is fewer things to [01:02:15] higher standards. The bright shiny object, the the tendency to go squirrel, new marketing tool. Let's go get it. Avoid that resistance, suppress it, [01:02:30] take it outta your personality. Mm-hmm. Try to focus on doing two or three things really, really well.
The ones that are most important and are gonna drive the needle. Try to [01:02:45] ignore the other stuff. It's so easy to get sucked into the idea that activity is progress. It's not,
Wendy: well, we just had this conversation yesterday with a client around strategy with all [01:03:00] the stuff that, all the tactical stuff that's being done and trying to really streamline, like, what are the top two business goals that we need to have front of mind?
And then if [01:03:15] there's a tactic that you come to us with that is not impacting, what are those high level goals? Do we really need to be doing that activity just for the sake of doing the activity? There's so much of that [01:03:30] in marketing.
Mike: Here's the other thought is country companies that have a clear positioning mm-hmm.
For their brand, have permission to say no to things as much as they have permission to say yes to things. [01:03:45] Mm-hmm. So it's a great stress reliever for the organization to have a clear idea of how you're positioned, what your, your mission is. One of the best I ever heard was Coke's vision [01:04:00] statement or mission statement to have a Coca-Cola with an arm's reach of every human being on earth.
Wendy: Wow.
Mike: Utterly simple.
Wendy: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Incredibly powerful. And it [01:04:15] explains what they've done with the company.
Joe: Yeah.
Mike: That, to me, what permission does that give you, gives you all kinds of permission, gives you permission to go to places you wouldn't wanna go. Right. Like Mongolia. But, [01:04:30] um, so again, simplifying, focusing marketing can help companies do that in ways other functions can't, you know, finance is, is backward looking.
Right? They're trying to hit budgets. [01:04:45] Mm-hmm. Publicly traded companies are even more challenging in that regard. But, but marketers are forward lookers. They need to create excitement around ideas and around simple, relevant [01:05:00] ideas.
Wendy: I think that says it all right there. Thank you so much. I. This has been fun.
This has been enlightening. I love doing this. Good. Good. Um, well we really appreciate your time today and [01:05:15] coming on the show with us. It's great to see you again. Um, and listeners, there was so much to take in from this episode, so take it all in and go find your humping Bird effect.