Autism and Theology Podcast

This week, Zoe is joined by Christopher Barber. Chris shares some of his experiences as an autistic person and his experience of spirituality, and what it means to be on the margins. 

The transcript for this episode is available here:
https://share.transistor.fm/s/d9fc31eb/transcript.txt

Read Chris' article on Autism and Spirituality here:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1558/prth.v4i2.201

Listen to Gaudete by Steeleye Span here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDc2FD-vy8M

If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.  

This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology. 

Website: www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/centre-for-the-study-of-autism-and-christian-community-1725.php

The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russel.

Creators & Guests

Host
Zoe Strong
PhD candidate at Aberdeen Uni studying dyslexia and engaging with the Bible. @SGSAH funded. @CumberlandLodge fellow. Autism and Theology Podcast host.

What is Autism and Theology Podcast?

The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.

Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!

We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.

Zoe: welcome to our December episodes of the Autism and Theology podcast.
The Autism and Theology podcast is a space where we engage with conversations in the field of autism and theology, share resources and promote ways in which faith and non faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish. I'm Zoe and I'm your host from this episode and I'm joined by Chris Barber.

Chris is a registered learning disability nurse in Birmingham and a PhD candidate at the University of Aberdeen. He's published various articles and books on autism. We've invited Chris on the podcast to speak about autism and connectedness and faith. Chris, can you tell us about yourself, where you're based, what you're researching and anything else that you would like to share?

Chris: Thank you Zoe. It's real, it's a real pleasure to be invited to this podcast. Who am I? Good question. I was born at a very young age, um, in a sleepy little town called Southend on Sea in Essex. A good place to appear in the world. And home to the rock band Prokoharum, as in Wider Shade of Pale. I left school at the age of 17, went to work in factories, used to make Vox amplifiers as made famous by Brian May of Queen, made loads of amplifiers for Brian May.

Um, I became a Franciscan novice. In the middle of 1980s, 1985. Um, got kicked out of that
because I was told that I would, I always kept myself to myself and my novice master didn't want, um, a hermet within the order. Looking back on it, I probably, um, was presenting signs and symptoms of, um, autism. And my novice master would not have picked up on those or understood what autism was. Today, if I was a Franciscan novice, yes, I would expect my novice master.

To at least be aware of autism and neurodiversity. But I left the Franciscans. I Signed up and became a student nurse. Did my three years, qualified. I'm still on the nurse's register. 33 years later. I worked in mental health and learning disability, forensics. Loved it. Um, was diagnosed as autistic 15 years ago.

Almost to the day. Um, became a National Autistic Society council member for a few years. I've written three books, one on autism, two on learning disability. Ended up being a visiting lecturer at Birmingham City University in nursing studies. Um, specialising in politics, policy and nursing. Um, currently doing my PhD at Aberdeen, where I am exploring issues around rejection and inclusion, um, as experienced by Church of England and Roman Catholic clergy who have autism.

Zoe: Thanks so much, Chris. It's so interesting to hear all the different things that you've been involved in and throughout your life and yeah, really great to see how you've ended up here. Um, I'm wondering what led you to research autism and theology?
Chris: Well it was a toss up between exploring Um, the experiences of autistic student nurses, um, or exploring the experiences of Church of England and Catholic Autistic Clergy.
Both would explore similar issues of inclusion, belonging.
Um, reasonable adjustments, that sort of stuff. The sample group will be different, obviously, but dealing with broadly similar issues.
So, I decided to go with theology rather than the nursing. And my Aberdeen, because they were silly enough to give me a place.

Um, I've known John Swinton for a few years with John's a mental health nurse by background. And I've known John because of, of nursing. And I applied to Aberdeen because John works there.

Zoe: it's really interesting to see so many people with nursing backgrounds end up in theology. It's, yeah, really cool. Um, so What we've invited you here to talk about today is autism and connectedness. Now you've written an article on autism and connectedness which we'll cite in our description so our listeners, if you're interested, you can find that in the description of this podcast.

But in your article on connectedness, you emphasise that autistic people do connect with spirituality. It can just look a bit different. Could you share a little bit with us about your experience of spiritual connection?

Chris: Yes, because of sensory profile. By sensory profile, I mean, um, being able to process sensory information through Hearing, uh, vision, and touch.

Um, I have always been drawn to, um, a more contemplative, contemplative. I'll put my teeth in. Um, a more contemplative spirituality. So the Benedictines, Cistercians. I've got a Cistercian monastery about 30, 35 miles down the road and I go down there once or twice a year. And spend a few hours with the monks. And I just feel a natural affinity to quiet spaces, solitude.

And, in a way, it's a good thing that I'm no stranger to solitude. Um, because from 2010 to 2021, I was my wife's full time carer because she had multiple disabilities and health issues. And she died in January 2021. So it's just me and my son now. My son is more often out than he is in. So I spend quite a lot of my days on my own.

And sometimes I don't even go out shopping or don't go out to church. I'm literally on my own. So, solitude is something that is both important to me and something I've had to get used to, if that makes sense.

Zoe: Yeah, that makes so much sense, Chris. I'm wondering, you talk about solitude and that quiet spaces, um, and you also talk about going to visit the monks and spending time with them. I wonder if you could share a little bit more about that, being quiet and having space but also being with other people?

Chris: Yes. John Donne wrote No Man Is An Island. I think it was John Donne. Um, that's true, no man is an island. We all live interdependently on each other. Um, we're all dependent upon one another in one way or another. For example, getting into work in the morning. We're depending upon either the bus or the car. And we're depending upon the car working or the bus being driven. It's as simple and basic as that. We are dependent upon, um, shop staff working so we can go out and buy food each day.
So we are all dependent on each other. But within that, there is a growing hunger for solitude. An ability just to be still, be quiet and to listen.

And one of the reasons why I go to St. Bernard's Abbey, which is the, uh, Cistercian Monastery, is because it offers me the opportunity to be still and to be quiet.

Zoe: Thanks for sharing that Chris with such vulnerability and I'm sure a lot of people will be able to relate to that idea of stillness and quiet and solitude but depending on other people as well it's such a beautiful way that you present that and I think especially just with obviously this episode is being released in December and December can be such a busy time for people and just that's such a helpful reminder you give of silence and stillness, um, yeah, really powerful what you've shared.

I'd like to spend a little bit of time talking about autism and connectedness with God at Christmas time. Um, as we’ve discussed, Chris, a few years ago, I read your article on connectedness and I think of it so often, um, because you write about how you feel connected to the vulnerability of the infant Christ at Christmas time.

I'd love if you could share a little bit about this with us and what you meant by this in your article.

Chris: Yes. Uh, thank you for reading my article. It's really nice to know that people actually read the stuff I write. Um, it gives me a sense of fulfilment, that I'm not actually just wasting my time.

The vulnerable Christ? Good question. And I've been thinking about that over the past couple of days. I'd like to think there are two birth narratives here. One six months earlier than Christ, John the Baptist. If you read Luke's account of the birth of John, particularly what is known as the Benedictus, which forms part of the morning prayer of the Catholic Church. And the first part of the Benedictus is Zechariah, John the Baptist's father giving praise to God for the birth of his son. And then halfway through the benedictus, there's a pause.

And I can imagine the father, um, Zechariah, picking up his son, John, and looking at him, and then addressing the following words to him. As for you, my little child, you shall be called the prophet of God the Most High. And you shall go ahead of the Lord to prepare his ways before him.

Fast forward six months, and we've got the birth of Christ, uh, which we are now coming up to.

And Jesus is lying there in the manger, a vulnerable little baby, totally dependent upon his parents, Mary and Joseph.

On him should be laid all the sins of the world. But at that moment, Jesus is a vulnerable little baby.

And I hope this makes sense but we all need to share that vulnerability. Because if we don't, then we are saying that we cannot be part of the vulnerable Christ.
Being autistic makes us vulnerable, makes us vulnerable to rejection, hurt and pain, as well as vulnerable to joy.

Zoe: Chris, I'd love to hear, um, yeah, a little bit more about what, like, I guess I'd like to unpack a little bit your comment on being autistic makes autistic people vulnerable, and yeah, just that idea of it, and what you said about vulnerable to joy, um, could you expand on that a little bit?

Chris: Yes. We are, as autistic, or as neurodiverse adults, we live on the margins of society. We may appear to be successful. I'm reasonably successful, I'm a qualified nurse, university lecturer, writer, PhD candidate.

I've done things in life that I would never have thought possible, considering I was a factory worker when I started. I'm still a factory worker at heart.

But God has placed us on the margins. He's placed us on the margins for a reason, and that is to face both ways. To be good to walk with God in the margins, and to represent those in the margins to God.

And part of that must be a vulnerability of joy to walk on the margins entails a certain amount of joy because we are doing what God wants us to do.

Zoe: It's a really wonderful way of framing joy and just joy in doing God's work. Um, and yeah, where autistic people fit in and that is such an amazing conversation especially when autistic people are often marginalized and seen as different or not capable a lot of the time and it's such a wonderful way that you frame it to say actually autistic people are doing God's work because because they are artistic and because God has placed them where they're at.

Chris: Yes, there's a particular song I like, and it's called Gaudete. There are many versions around at the moment, but one of the versions that most people would have heard of is the single that came out 50 odd years ago, I think by a folk rock band called Steeleye Span. Medi Pryor on the vocals. Steeleye Span are still around. They're still touring. And they're playing in Birmingham on the 14th of December. I might go and see them again. I've already seen them twice.

Um, but Gaudete, the Steeleye Span version, comes from the album Below the Salt. Now where Below the Salt comes from is in medieval times. Um, the master and the servants would sit down and eat together. The masters would sit at a table above the salt. And the servants and the slaves would sit at the same table, but below the salt.
If that makes sense. So hence the album's title, Below the Salt. Gaudete is Latin and it simply means rejoice. Rejoice in God.

Zoe: Yeah, I'll share a link to that song in the description. So again, if people want to go away and listen to it or take a pause and listen to it and then come back, you're welcome to do that. Um, yeah, thanks so much, Chris.

I'm wondering what advice you would give to autistic people who are maybe on the margins and maybe don't connect with spirituality in the same way that others around them do?

Chris: Take pride in who and what they are. Everyone is different, every neurotypical is different, every neurodivergent person is different.

Just because I'm Roman Catholic doesn't mean to say that how I express my Catholicism is going to be the same as that of a neurotypical nun, or priest, or deacon for example. And how they express theirs will be different from mine. We're all different.

For those of us who don't follow a particular faith community, just take a few minutes and accept yourself for whom you are.

You are wonderfully made, in God's image.

metaphorically speaking. Although, the older one gets, the more the leaky bits play up.

Zoe: Thanks for that image, Chris.

Chris: Well, I'm 64 going on 21. And fortunately I haven't had any attacks of gout, but I have had, and it's really painful.

And the older one gets, the more likely it is that one will develop arthritis, sensory impairment, dementia. When the body and the brain just slowly packs up. It's not inevitable but statistically, the older one gets, um, the more likely one, one's body will just simply slow down.

Zoe: I think that's one thing that's so interesting about what you're saying, about accepting yourself as autistic, and as you are, and who God's made you to be, because that doesn't just apply to the autistic person, it applies to every single person on this earth, we all have areas where we struggle, or areas where people don't accept us, and where our bodies and our minds fail, and that's what I think is so exciting about what you're saying, is it's for everyone, even though it's for the autistic person, if that makes sense.

Chris: But the other side of the solitude and contemplative coin is social activism. There is an awful lot of pain and injustice within the world. And just because we are called to prayer doesn't mean to say that we can't raise our heads above the parapet and become socially active, get our hands dirty. For example, I serve As governor of two NHS trusts, one community and one mental health. And I use my role as an NHS trust governor to ensure that vulnerable patients, vulnerable service users, have their needs met.

I write for a living. And I use writing as a tool of social engagement in changing structures. Most of what I write is for nursing journals. And I write for specific nursing journals because I know that they are read by staff nurses and child nurses and healthcare assistants. People who actually work with patients rather than work in management or, or academia.

Zoe: Yeah, it's, again, that comes back to what you said before about being on the margins and that means that we look out for other marginalized people and, um, from that position, we can do that. Um, I'm wondering about the other side of this conversation and what advice you would give to practitioners or other people in faith communities to enable autistic people to thrive in their way of being and their way of connecting with God.

Chris: Accept that everybody's different and look beyond just inclusion. And foster a sense of belonging and welcome. People can be included within church prayer life, church liturgy, spirituality. But there's a difference between inclusion and belonging. And church leaders, Catholic priests, deacons, bishops, aggregate clergy and so on, Baptist ministers and so on, must put out the idea that it is okay to be who you are.

And if that means that the religious minister, whoever he or she is, shares their own vulnerability, because we're all vulnerable in one way or another, then that can only be a positive thing.

Zoe: Yeah, that's a really helpful point, and I think it just encompasses all about what autism and theology is it's more than inclusion, it's calling people to see the value of autistic and other neurodivergent or different people. Make people or welcome people into communities as essential parts, not just some who's allowed to come in and yeah, it's yeah, that's really helpful advice. And yeah, really great.

Zoe: Yeah, I'd really recommend to our listeners, um, again I'll put a link to your article in the description, but I'd really recommend that people read your article, um, and just experience. more of what you've said, because it really helped me to reframe the way that I view Christ, and I view my own vulnerability.

And yeah, it's a really, yeah, a really beautiful way that you put it.

Well, Chris, it's been so great to have you on the podcast. Um, and it's been so interesting to hear your thoughts and perspectives, and I really appreciated your vulnerability and the way that you've shared your own experience and the way that you've encouraged other people.

Um, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this podcast episode. If you have any questions for Chris, you can send us an email at cat@abdn. ac. uk and we'll forward any emails on to him. Our next CATChat will be released on the 20th of December and we will be sharing about autism and Christmas.

We'll be sharing stories and offering suggestions about things that can be helpful and things that can exclude autistic people at this time of year.

If you're listening soon after this episode has been released, we would like to invite you to a webinar on Thursday the 7th of December from 10am to 11:30am run by the Centre for Autism and Theology. The topic is the spiritual experiences and expressions of non or minimally speaking autistic people. Thank you so much for listening and thank you Chris for being a guest on this episode.

Chris: Thank you for inviting me, it's been a pleasure.