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I Love Your Stories is a soulful conversation series hosted by artist and creative guide Hava Gurevich, where art meets authenticity. Each episode invites you into an intimate dialogue with artists, makers, and visionaries who are courageously crafting lives rooted in creativity, purpose, and self-expression.
From painters and poets to healers and community builders, these are the stories behind the work—the moments of doubt, discovery, grief, joy, and transformation. Through honest, heart-centred conversations, Hava explores how creativity can be both a healing force and a path to personal truth.
If you’re an artist, a dreamer, or someone drawn to a more intuitive and intentional way of living, this podcast will remind you that your story matters—and that the act of creating is a sacred, revolutionary act.
[MUSIC]
As we reflect on our life's journey,
it's often those challenging moments,
those bumps in the road that end up being
our greatest blessings.
Welcome to this episode
of I Love Your Stories.
I'm your host, Hava Gervich,
and honored to welcome
Anthony Motley to the show today.
Anthony's career spans working in radio,
two decades as a TV talk show producer,
along with his work as a filmmaker,
podcaster, and writer.
Join us as we explore how our experiences
mold our perceptions,
shift our priorities,
ignite our creativity,
and reveal the true power of gratitude.
Now, a quick word from our sponsor,
and then we'll get
right back to the show.
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Then I came across art storefronts and
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I've been a customer now for years,
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I have a gorgeous,
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Check them out, artstorefronts.com,
and tell them how I sent you.
Anthony or Tony?
E-Verse fine. Anthony's fine.
If you're comfortable
saying that, so let's say that.
That's how I know you as Anthony.
Yeah, that's fine.
Thank you so much for doing this.
I'm just honored and
surprised that you asked me.
I told you I was going to.
The funny thing about it too,
in my whole career in media,
I've never wanted to be
in front of the camera.
I like to make other people
the subject of my stories,
I've heard stories about them.
What's the goal behind them?
That's a very good question.
Now that you're six episodes in.
Yeah. Also, what I find really
interesting is having
conversations with people who are doing
something very
different than what I'm doing.
The best part is when
you find a commonality.
You find something
that resonates for you,
resonates for them, and therefore,
hopefully resonates for
anyone else who's listening.
It is like a meta subject.
It's not just about art,
it's not just about filmmaking.
It's not about the
situation you're describing
is your perspective
through stories of others.
You end up learning about yourself.
Right.
Maybe we can start by
getting to know you a little bit,
putting you on the spot a little bit.
You produced a talk show for 20 years.
I would love to hear a
little bit about that.
Boy, I had an interesting conversation
with one of my mentees yesterday.
We were talking about much
of what I think you and I
will talk about today.
We were saying the idea that
there's a sense of randomness
to where we are right now.
Yeah.
For me, that's been the
story of my adult life
and probably my younger life.
I haven't examined it.
By that, I mean,
it's not often that I've said
I have this plan to do something
and then it went that way like that.
It just, the things that I've done
have been just kind of
not planned, not expected.
I was working in radio.
This went rewind earlier.
In my early 20s, I was
an electrical apprentice
and I had been involved with technology
and still even now I'm
involved with technology.
But that was a way, it's
hard to get an apprenticeship
and it's tough to get
in a union and all that.
I found a guy that kind of
mentored me and brought me in.
And then later I met someone else
who owned an electric
company and I worked with him
and it was his sons and some other guys,
older guys that he had hired.
I didn't fit.
And I got into a dispute
with one of the guys about,
at lunchtime, I was reading the newspaper
and the guy called me college boy.
And I said, "What do you mean?"
And he said, "Well, you don't talk to us.
They're talking and cursing and talking
about women's breasts
and all kind of crazy stuff
and I'm just off to the side reading."
And I said, "Well,
it's just the free press,
the Detroit free press.
It's not like the Wall Street Journal."
And he said, "You act
like you're too good."
I said, "Well, understand the free press
is written on a fifth grade level."
And he got really mad.
He wanted to hit me, I think.
And I just, at that point after that,
I got the worst
assignments going forward.
Like we rewired a church in January
and I was in the
basement without a heater
and you had to strip
wire with your bare hands
with no gloves on.
And it was so cold, it was brutal.
So I left there and got a job in radio.
And I loved radio and
I'd always loved radio.
And I decided, you know what?
To hell with this electrical stuff,
I'm gonna do what I wanna do.
And I worked in radio for a while
and then I met a guy at a Christmas party
at an ad agency's Christmas party
and he worked in television.
And Haava, he told me
about how great it was
to work in television and
how much I would like it
and it's fun and it was exciting.
And I said, "Not really, not interested."
And he just kept
calling me and bothering me.
So I finally met him at the station
and saw what he was doing and said,
"Hmm, that's interesting."
And what was he doing?
He was a producer.
Okay.
But I realized,
I didn't really know, you know,
when you're a producer in television
and somebody says, "What do you do?"
And you say, "I'm a producer."
Most people, in fact, probably nobody
knows what that means.
So most people say,
"Oh, you get the money."
Yeah, and that's a tippy part of it,
but that's not really it.
And really the producer is what you are
when you're making a painting.
You decide, unless
it's a commission piece,
you decide the canvas size,
you decide acrylic or
watercolor or whatever,
you pick the brushes, you pick the,
it's you and that's what a producer does.
We're gonna put on
this show about something
and you decide who's gonna be on it,
what questions we're gonna ask,
what video we're
gonna roll into it to show
what the conversation's about.
And I said, "Wow, this is
like playing God, I loved it."
And so after that, that's
really where I got involved in it.
And I found that this is where I fit in.
And again, it's a creative atmosphere.
It looks like when
you walk into a newsroom
at a public television station,
it's kind of like a house party.
And people are talking
and people are playing music
and people are throwing
paper airplanes at each other
and screaming at each other and wrestling
and flirting and all kinds of stuff.
And it's like, how does
anything get done here?
But yet at the end of the week,
we've got all this
product we've produced.
And so I love that.
I love the freedom and
the creativity of it.
And I found it very, very challenging.
And then I've learned about myself
in that I like things that are hard.
I'm really never
interested in something that's easy.
And I think I was born
with a high level of curiosity
and like, how do you do that?
Why did you do that?
How does that work?
How does that fit together?
How long does that take?
Does it hurt?
Do your hands hurt?
Does your neck hurt?
Do you get tired of
standing there doing that?
What's that like for you?
And I just, I mean, I
could go all day with it.
And so I think that's
where that comes from.
And then through those
opportunities, again,
the first full-time position I got
about three or four years later,
somebody, a manager had come
and kind of observed all
the people working there
as producers and
handpicked me to produce that shell
that I did for 20 years.
So that's really in a
nutshell where I got started.
So one of the things
that you started with,
this randomness,
and that's always,
it's always so fascinating
when you look back at
something you've done,
especially something that you're proud of
and you start sort of like walking back,
how did you get there
and how did you get there?
And at some point, there's a crossroad
where things feel like really shitty.
And in that moment, you don't know
that that shitty thing is gonna lead
to something really great.
What's the first time
you experienced that?
When I, like in 2001,
I was working in an
art gallery in Chicago,
the director of the gallery.
It was a good position,
but I just wanted something more.
And I got courted by a
gallery in the Hamptons
to come direct their gallery.
And so it seemed like a
fantastic opportunity.
In my head, it seemed
like everything I wanted.
And so I gave my notice
and ended a relationship
and gave away most of
my stuff because it was,
or when you were to put it,
and moved out to the Hamptons.
And two or three days in,
I realized that was a big mistake.
The job was not at all
how it was presented to me.
The living situation was
unusual to say the least.
And I left a really good position behind
and a good relationship and friends.
And it was a very sort
of, at times, lonely summer.
And yeah, there were a lot
of times during that time
when I thought, I really fucked up.
I really fucked up. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I really fucked up.
It ended up bringing me to
the next phase in my life.
That position only lasted three months.
I left, I just left, I couldn't.
And then there was 9-11 and
then there was other things.
And so there was a
series of what seems like,
in retrospect, it looked
like a series of bad decisions.
But they got me working with a
photography collector
who I have collaborated with ever since.
And because of him, there
were a lot of opportunities
in my life that doors opened,
people that I met through him.
And none of it would have
happened if I stayed in Chicago.
It was interesting.
It was an interesting crossroads
because I could look back and say,
I'm glad I am where I
am, but I wouldn't be here
if I didn't make that series of bad
decisions, quote unquote.
It's interesting too.
You said, you talked about taking a
chance and mistakes.
And I understand that.
And now as we've
evolved, I wouldn't say aged,
it's a journey.
Most of the time, even in an
uncomfortable situation,
you end up getting something out of it.
Absolutely.
For me, I believe we
have to be open to that
and look for that.
Yeah, you asked when was the first one.
And that might've not been the first one,
but it's the one that comes to mind
because it was a pretty monumental one.
There's been many, many since.
And each one has led
me to where I'm at now
and sitting for you.
And sometimes you are in
a place where you're like,
wow, this is, I can't
believe I'm doing this.
And this wouldn't have
happened because of ABC.
Other times you're still sort of like
somewhere along the way in the journey
and it's unclear where
it's going to end up.
But it's happened to me enough,
cyclical journeys in life,
to know that when something bad happens,
one of the thoughts that
comes to mind to me now is,
I wonder what thing in the future
that's gonna be really great
that I'm gonna be able
to look back and say like,
oh, this situation, I guess,
as you get older, there's
this thing of faith or faith.
Yeah, we know.
It's funny, someone I was listening to,
it might've been a Joseph Campbell thing.
I've been listening to a
lot of weird stuff lately
and the question of
faith came up and he said,
there's a difference
between faith and knowing.
Yeah.
As we get older, more
experienced, we move into knowing.
So you know how, and you talked about it,
you didn't say it,
but you kind of said it.
When you get into that
situation where you're saying,
oh my God, this is a mistake.
And there's a level of,
in your physical self,
you feel like, oh shit.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And when you first start out,
for me, like late nine eighties,
and I make this short two minute video
and you say, Anthony, show me your story.
I was so self-conscious, however,
I just thought I'll never really be
comfortable doing this
because you feel judged.
You know what I mean?
You ever feel that way
about when you make something?
I still do, it's still there.
Well, I don't anymore.
Yeah, oh, that's something.
But when you've done
hundreds and hundreds of things,
you present them.
I mean, you want to put them like one.
I do know what you mean.
I mean, there's still times,
especially when I take a risk.
And I've learned that as well.
I think the closest analogy for me
is like if I'm working on a painting,
when you don't know where it's going,
I can't tell like one minute I look at it
and it looks like
something really new and exciting.
And the next thing I look,
the next moment I look at it
and it looks like just,
you know, like nothing.
And, you know, so
there's that uncertainty
and sometimes, you
know, you put it out there
and I have to remind myself
that I've been doing this long enough
and I have to trust
that there are some things
that I'm doing intuitively
that maybe don't make
sense for me right now.
But I know from, you
know, past experience
that it will make sense to me later.
So I have to remind myself
that when I allow something new
to come and try not to be
too judgmental of myself.
And even if in the moment I'm
self-conscious about it,
there's something
about, you know, sharing it
and seeing that, you know,
sometimes it'll resonate with people.
I get so like down a rabbit hole
when I'm working on
something and so close to it,
I can't look at it objectively anymore.
Yes.
And I rely on other people to see it
and then what do you think?
Yeah.
Or it takes two, three months
and then I pick it up
and look at it again
and think, man, it's pretty good.
Or I think it's okay.
But I mean, I'm a really
good judge of what for myself
of whatever I've done.
I don't think everything
I've done is phenomenal,
it's great.
Some of them are really good.
Some of them aren't so good.
Well, some of them are a
stones for something else.
Yeah, but it's okay.
Because it leads sometimes.
It leads to some exactly, yeah.
You build up that.
So what are you
passionate about right now?
What are you working on?
I'm really focused more on writing
than filmmaking and podcasting,
even though I love all three.
I couldn't pick one.
I think if you don't write it down,
then it didn't happen.
You know what I mean?
Like, Hava was a great
artist, you should have met her.
Oh, I'd love to hear more about her.
Is there, oh yeah,
there's a book about her.
Yeah, yeah.
Then it's a thing.
Otherwise, you're just this person that,
once I'm gone, who's
gonna talk about you?
I'm sorry, are you
writing an autobiography or?
I'm doing that.
You know what, it's interesting.
It's not as much an autobiography.
It has autobiographical components to it,
but it's really about my
health journey and my life
and how that changed my life.
And I learned--
Can you elaborate or is it?
Pardon me?
Can you elaborate?
Yeah, I would start off by saying
what I wrote really
was that I used to think
that I was driving the car.
And for my whole life, I
really thought I was driving.
And then when I
didn't, when I wasn't well,
when I found out I had cancer,
I realized not only was I not driving,
I wasn't in the passenger
seat, I was in the trunk.
(laughs)
Because we make so many
assumptions about life
and what we're gonna do and our journey
and what our plans are,
and then life happens.
And I mean, honestly,
Hava, I was working in the yard
and I was trying to get the lawn cut
and I needed to use a weed
whacker to clean up some grass
that was just growing uncontrollably.
And it wouldn't start.
And I knew when I started out that day
that the weed whacker
wasn't probably not gonna start.
And so I told myself,
well, I'll cut the grass
and it's okay,
nevermind, I'll get it fixed,
I'll do it another day.
But you know me, I'm stubborn.
I said, I'm gonna try to
start it one more time,
maybe it'll start.
And I go to pole start the thing
and I hear this loud, it
sounded like a tree branch
snapping or falling off a tree.
You know how trees just crack and eat?
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh my God.
And then I felt my shoulder.
And I was like, oh my goodness, what?
It hurt really bad, it hurts so bad.
So I had a 20 pound bag of ice,
like a bag of ice like this big.
And I put it on my
shoulder for 30 minutes.
After 30 minutes, I
took that bag of ice off.
My shoulder hurts so bad.
It was unbelievable.
I didn't know that you have an injury
and put ice on it, like
freeze yourself and still feel it.
But that wasn't the problem.
The problem was when
I went to urgent care,
the doctor said, your
collarbone's broken.
I said, yeah, I figured that.
He said, but that's not the problem.
I said, oh, he said, you
have spots on your bones.
And I said, oh.
And in my mind, in that
moment, I remember that.
Right now, my wife is
waiting in the waiting area.
She didn't hear the doctor.
I was just, he and I talking.
And I was trying to rationalize,
well, okay, spots on
my bone, I'll be okay.
But there was nothing in my mind
that allowed me to
believe I was gonna be okay.
I knew, okay, this is a problem.
How bad of a problem, I don't know.
I had kind of
envisioned just for a moment,
oh, worst case scenario,
this could be really bad.
But I wasn't sure.
And then I found out later
it was former bone cancer.
And it was terrifying.
And you realize
everything you think you know,
you don't know.
You think you do.
You think you feel the way you feel.
You think, you know, I see
like, are you afraid to die?
Get a death sentence from your doctor.
What you have is cure, is
treatable, but not curable.
Most people live 10 years.
And you know, then you'll find out
if you are afraid to die.
Then you'll find out how you really feel.
Up until then, and that, you know,
get back to your question about faith.
It's the difference
between faith and knowing.
Because then I knew I could confront it.
And it's a hell of a thing to find out
what you can confront.
And you know, because you
don't know, I might not.
I don't, I can't imagine
if I felt like I could,
I can't do this.
What I thought was, it's,
I'm glad it's not my wife.
I'm glad it's not one of the kids.
If somebody in our house
had to do this, I volunteered.
That's all I could think.
And so I didn't regret that.
I just needed to figure
out how to get through it.
But I learned so much about myself
and it made me realize that
things aren't always
what we think they are.
We don't know as much
as we think we know.
But it's comfortable feeling that way.
I get why people feel that way.
I got this, I can do this.
A guy told me, he came to fix my furnace.
The guy I went to school with.
And he came to put a
digital thermostat in.
And so I told him I
was having chemotherapy
and I, you know, whatever.
And he said, oh, I wouldn't,
I wouldn't let anybody do that to me.
I said, well, you don't have cancer.
I mean, you know, you can
say that until you get sick.
When you get sick, you tell me
how you're gonna deal with it.
Otherwise, really shut up.
Yeah. That's all right.
I didn't say that to you.
Because I try to be kind.
But you don't know.
And I think it's pretty
profound to find out about yourself.
And so I wanted to
share with other people
about that journey, about that moment.
But we all have moments in our life
where you're like, oh my God.
You really learn about yourself.
You learn about yourself.
And I think that part is invaluable.
Yeah.
Yeah, you learn.
It's very humbling.
It is.
Because like you said,
you can go through life
with these grand ideas about who you are,
how you might act in a certain situation,
what's important to you, all of it.
And if you, you know,
you don't get to find out
who you really are until you're--
And I think what happens, for me,
my values just
shifted all over the place.
And I was liberating to
realize a lot of stuff
that I thought
mattered to me, did me shit.
My feeling was if this, like a bill collector calling me,
or I had old money to the IRS,
and I was losing sleep about it,
when I got really sick, I realized,
I'm not losing sleep about the IRS.
I'll tell you that.
Because if this shit is not
gonna kill me, I don't care.
You know what I mean?
If I'm not gonna die from it, I'm not
gonna worry about it.
And that's a valuable lesson.
Yeah.
We spend so much time on
stuff that doesn't matter.
It's not gonna affect our lives.
And it's so hard to
communicate that to people.
But that's what I want people to realize.
Like you talk about your journey.
Our journeys are our own.
And one of the things
that is kind of really
kind of coming together
for me about our journeys,
our individual journeys that are
punctuated with like,
loss or setback, all of that,
and then triumphs along the way as well.
You don't know how
you're going to respond
to a certain situation
that's a negative situation
or just a powerful
situation until it happens to you.
And it's usually not what
you envision that you would do.
But when you're through that journey, through that process,
those are the things
that really define you,
both in life and with my art.
When I make art, like
within one painting,
within one artwork, it could be a process
that took like 20 years.
Like I started, I
hated it, I put it away,
I pulled it out, tried
something, it didn't work,
I put it back away.
I put layers and layers
of painting,
layers and layers of paint and ideas.
All I could come up with in my head
is something that I already know.
And what I'm hoping for is something new.
The only way to do that is
to just go on that journey.
I have some works that
I just sat down and did
and it came out and it was great.
It was just like,
wow, this just came out.
But those are outliers.
The ones that resonate
with me are ones that,
within the work, I
still see the struggles.
And that at the end of the day,
it's so much about the process.
The thing that's gonna be memorable
is the time when something went south,
like really, and I
was a point where like,
I don't know what's gonna happen next.
If I could just close my eyes
and vision all of it perfect,
snap my fingers and it appears,
I wouldn't wanna make art anymore.
And I wouldn't wanna live this life
if I just, somebody told me the ending
because it's all about the journey.
It's all about the process for me.
I've never felt that.
I've never felt that.
That's interesting that you said that.
I'm concerned sometimes that maybe I
won't have the energy
because it takes a, I
mean, I live this stuff.
And so my, like, what's fun for me,
I'll tell you a real good story.
A friend of mine was
working for Habitat for Humanity.
And this particular
chapter had been helping veterans
get homes as part of their mission.
Yeah, yeah.
And they wanted to do some
storytelling around that.
And they had a fundraiser
coming up of big function.
Can you make a short film for this event?
So they tell me, well, there's this guy,
he's a Navy veteran, he's disabled.
Can you tell the story?
So they gave me his
number and I call him,
I make an
appointment, I tell him who I am.
I'm gonna come and
interview you for this,
this project for Habitat or whatever.
And he gives me his address, I go,
and I'm my boy over there.
Then I realize it's just me.
And I go there and I
thought, wait a minute,
now this guy, I'm so
eager to tell a story
I hadn't really thought logistically
what I was dealing with.
He's disabled, he's a disabled veteran.
I'm like, is he dangerous?
Should I be concerned?
I mean, I don't know
what I'm walking into.
I go there, he's like 35 years old,
which is shocking to me.
He's a young man.
And he's ambulatory.
So he didn't
understand what this was about
and why I was doing it.
And he didn't think
he was that important.
I said, well, everybody's important,
everybody's story's different.
I said, let's just talk.
I said, I'm gonna set up the camera,
but it'd just be you and I just talking.
And I have no idea, I
don't know anything about him.
Ava, he starts telling
me a story, it's terrible.
But he had all these flashbacks,
he had all these flashbacks,
he's some psychological issues.
He had some loss in his life.
His wife was also in the Navy, she died.
And I thought, oh my
goodness, this is really terrible,
but it's an interesting story.
So, I interviewed him maybe twice then.
And then I went to the house
where they were
renovating a house for him,
small like a thousand square foot home.
And I met all the people from Habitat
and all the electrical and
carpentry and all these people
and about what they were doing.
They were really
proud to be doing that job
and doing it for a
military person and all that.
And so it's getting
close, like three months,
four months later, it's
getting close to the time
to wrap this up and the events coming up.
And I needed, the one
last thing was to get him
at the house.
And he had, well, I
wanted to get him at the house.
And then he told me he
would give me pictures
of his wife and his daughter.
He never sent the pictures I call him.
Okay, I'm gonna send
them now, never got them.
So I said, okay, you're not
gonna send them, I get it.
Please meet me at the house.
He promised a few times, didn't do it.
I showed up this one last
time, it was snowing that day.
I get there, I shoot more
footage of the crew working.
He's not there.
I pack my stuff.
I'm almost getting in
the car, here he comes.
Like, oh boy, I was ready to go home.
But anyway, I get back
out of the car, get my gear,
get the camera, follow him around.
He walks through the house.
I got footage of him
going through the house.
He's thanking the
workers for helping him.
And it was really good.
And it's the kind of thing
that I really love to do.
If there's a signature for my work,
is that kind of unexpected impromptu,
real kind of interaction
between me and this person,
whoever the subject is.
And it worked really well.
It really did.
And I had another issue like that,
when I first started
out where I did the story,
it was really good,
but it's not good enough.
And I was in the shower that morning,
and I was thinking, it's not working.
It's just, it's not quite there.
And then I thought, hmm, the guy,
this kid was in a gang,
and he said he wasn't in a gang anymore,
and his brother had been murdered,
and his mother was
really worried about him.
And I realized, I need
to interview the mother.
Okay.
And so we went to the
house to interview the mom.
This is crazy.
It's so, she cooks, right?
They live in this two-story house,
and she lives upstairs,
and it's 97 degrees that day.
She's got the oven on, but it's crazy.
It's so hot in there.
We were all sweating.
And so we said, you know, it's so warm.
We try to be polite.
Can we do this outside?
So we went outside, and
we were talking to her.
And so we asked her, and we used the
question in the video.
We asked her, your one son
passed away through gang violence.
And now Marvin was in a gang,
and now he says he's not in a gang.
What's it like for you having lost a son
to watch him leave every day?
Not knowing if he's gonna come home.
However, that lady started crying.
She said, I just pray.
Her lip was quivering.
I said, wow, that's the clip.
That little 20 seconds is what we need.
It just communicated the humanity
because it's in gangs killing each other.
So what?
Nobody cares.
But the fact that everybody has a mom,
and everybody's
mother, for the most part,
your mother's your protector.
She loves you.
But that element of...
As you're telling me
both of these stories
that you just told me about these films,
what stuck out to me is
the times when you thought
you were gonna do something,
and it didn't go the way
you thought it was gonna go,
and you had to change course.
So the process, you were
telling about the process,
which is exactly what
I was talking about,
that what remains for
you when it's all done,
somebody watching the film is going to
just see the message.
But for you, you are seeing those layers.
You'll always remember how it felt,
how hot it was in that kitchen.
You'll remember sitting
there with smoke going off.
That's the meaning of
being in the mood of the eye.
That's the benefit, the
blessing that we have.
Yeah, so it's the process.
Both of them, other
people, unless they do this work,
do what you do, do what I...
They don't, and they'll never know.
They'll never know.
But I think that
sometimes things do come together
and people show up
right at the right time
and the temperature is great
and the interview is
perfect and all that.
I'm just taking, I'm just
guessing that those films
are not the ones that
you're gonna remember.
And that really...
Because there was no struggle.
No, no.
That's the thing, the
difficulties is what makes it fun
because you can look at,
like you look at a painting
and you know how many layers
there are actually layers on a painting.
And they're all still there for me.
They're all still...
They're there and you know it.
And for me, I make a
film or I write something
and you rewrite it and you
rewrite it and you rewrite it.
And it's like no one will ever know
how much you put into it.
And that did, it doesn't matter.
We don't do it so that other people...
Oh, sure, no, yeah.
I guess that was my
thought is that what makes it
something that you wanna keep doing
is that you keep encountering situations
where you don't know
what you're going to do
until you're faced with that decision.
I love that.
I really love that.
I love the...
And sometimes it's grand things
like when you're told
that you have bone cancer.
And sometimes it's a
little thing of like,
do I wait for this guy to
show up or do I just back up?
But you don't know until it happens.
And then in retrospect,
you say like, aha, this is...
This is a defining moment.
And you realize every
decision that you make, it matters.
It affects what you do.
And I think like being the producer,
what we used to have a saying like,
so if I'm gonna interview Hava
and Hava is 30 minutes late,
then it's my fault.
And we would say to each
other, like if I'd said,
"Anthony, where's Hava?
"You said you're
gonna give this lady Hava.
"She's not here."
And that person would say,
"Well, that's your fault.
"She's stuck in traffic.
"That's your fault."
Like my fault.
Whatever happens as a
producer, it's your fault.
Even though honestly, I have
no control over you driving
and your traffic.
But the idea is that you're in charge,
you're planning this, it's your baby.
You meant you have to own it.
And I think that sense of ownership,
you have to embrace that.
It's not about making excuses.
It's about getting it done.
I like that a lot.
And that process though, to
me is the biggest love story
they're creating.
If you asked me like 15 years ago,
like what's the meaning of life?
What do I feel of life is?
I actually don't know if I even
contemplated that question.
15 years ago, I was like,
more about like, what do I wanna do?
Which is normal.
Yeah, but I think about it
now and it becomes clearer.
The meaning of life is to live it.
Yeah, yeah, and absolutely.
To live it.
Because if you are all knowing and you
know all the answers
to all the questions in advance,
you wouldn't need to live it.
Right, it's not exciting.
And I love that.
I love the process, I
love the uncertainty.
Yeah, yeah.
I love all of that.
In fact, if that's not there,
I'm probably not even interested.
Exactly, and that's what I was saying.
Like if I could close my eyes and imagine
the perfect painting and
snap my fingers and it's there,
I'm not interested in
it because it's not,
I didn't do anything.
Like I didn't create it.
I didn't participate
in the decision making.
I didn't gain any knowledge from it.
How has your process
changed over the years?
Now, what do you do now that
you didn't do 20 years ago?
What things do you know to help yourself?
So I mean, one of it is
just dexterity over time.
I'm much more confident with what I think
or what I know I can do with paint,
with brushes, with the medium that I use.
I also have a lot more
experience of experimenting.
I was just saying, okay, I don't know
where this is going.
It's a lost cause in a sense,
so I might as well experiment.
I might as well just try something new
and have a breakthrough.
And it's something that I
approach with confidence now.
So almost like when I go through phases
when I have like a creative block
and they can last a while and
they can be very frustrating.
But I also know what waits
for me at the other end of that.
Cause sometimes you need
to just walk away from it
for a minute.
Well, yeah, sometimes I
need to walk away for months.
But I know that at some
point, like I just know like,
okay, I'm going through a
period of like incubation.
Speak like something is changing.
Like something that I did
before that was like familiar
isn't working for me anymore.
Something new has to come in.
I don't know what that thing is.
And as frustrating as it
is, it's also really exciting
because I don't know what
the next lesson is going to be.
I don't know what's coming next.
And I know, but I know that it will.
I have faith.
I've seen it happen enough
times that I know that it will.
And when it does, it's going to affect me
as much as it would affect
anyone who's seen the work
and saying, wow, this is amazing.
Cause I look at it as like, oh my God,
I can't believe this just
came together like that.
I could have never imagined it.
I could have never
imagined that I have to go
through that journey.
So I think one of the
things that has changed for me,
my art, you know, like stylistically,
for one thing, I'm more
comfortable doing like
just pretty decorative art.
Cause I've been out of
grad school long enough
to have like dropped that
doctrine of like, you know,
I can't do things that are just
decorative, you know,
it's not art.
So, you know, part of it is that,
is that I allow myself to
indulge in just making things
that feel good, just
pretty flowers or whatever.
But also, you know,
there's that confidence in like,
oh, I think I can make this work.
Like, and then also
just that confidence that
even when things are really not working,
it's all part of the process.
It's just that point
where I'm about to have
the next breakthrough.
Let me ask you, so you
said you're really passionate
about writing.
So, and that you are
currently sort of writing
about your experience, Habib, answer.
Through your writing, you want to,
is it, are you sharing
your story or are you,
is it more of like a teaching kind of?
I'm sharing my, a part of it is my story
and part of it is what
I've uncovered from my story.
Trying to, I'm trying to find
something I'll share with you
while we're talking.
But yeah, I think, for example,
we worry about like uncertainty,
like you and I are talking about.
And that's not something to worry about.
You know what I mean?
We never, I mean,
it's impossible to know.
Exactly.
We can't know.
We don't know.
It's what they say, be
comfortable, being uncomfortable.
And that's really, that for
me, that's really what it is.
I just think that I don't mind that.
I don't mind that
knowing what's gonna happen.
I don't mind being a little bit afraid.
Yeah.
And I understand when
I'm feeling a certain way,
how I feel and what I have to do
and how it impacts my
journey are two different things.
Because just like right now or today,
you could say, I'm too
tired, I'll do it tomorrow,
I'll do it later, I don't feel like it.
You know what I mean?
You've got all these things in your mind,
these voices telling you
all kind of crazy stuff.
And when I was
younger, that disturbed me.
And then I realized, boy, you have to,
those voices just need to
go somewhere and sit down.
(laughing) And you can't, I used to tell my son,
he would say, and I'd
say, why don't you do this,
clean your room or whatever.
And he'd say, well, I
didn't feel like it.
I never feel like it.
It's not about how we feel.
It's really not.
It's about, I have to do this.
You're a painter.
You gotta paint at some point.
There are days where you
don't feel like painting.
There are days, and that's fine.
But you can't not paint for five years.
Yeah.
You know, what are you gonna do?
So yeah, I mean, in
learning how to balance that
and learning yourself.
So I think to me that
the critical part is to
love yourself, understand yourself,
trust yourself, and give yourself grace.
And I can't, through a
book or through some writing,
I can't get someone to,
there are certain things
that people have to go through.
Right.
And it's unavoidable.
Yeah.
But you can help people
overcome some hurdles,
some obstacles, and--
Or at least--
It's really, I don't
know if it's a shortcut,
but if you learn to think differently,
you should behave differently.
Or at the very least,
learn that it is
possible to think differently.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
It's comforting,
because you can find a
little bit of gratitude,
even when things, you
know, in the worst of times,
you learn from it.
Here's what I wrote, and
I'll share this with you.
It's part of it.
It says, "Today, as a
two-time cancer survivor,
I understand the
importance of gratitude and empathy
for a healthy mindset.
Our emotions shape our reality.
If we believe we can't, we likely won't.
Negative self-talk sabotages many people
and keeps them from success.
Fortunately, empathy can
overcome the negative thoughts
and emotions that hold us back."
Okay?
Developing self-empathy is critical
for changing a negative mindset.
Mental fitness begins
with showing ourselves grace.
I tell people, no matter
what happens, it's okay.
Life is not about what happens to us,
but how we respond to it.
Absolutely.
So that's really where I'm going.
So last thing, trouble, pain, heartache,
and disappointments are
inevitable in everyone's life.
A mentally fit person leads with empathy
and turns every experience into a gift.
So that's what I want people to get.
That it can be, every
challenge is an opportunity,
and every opportunity
can be turned into a gift.
You can't control a situation,
but you can control how
you react to that situation.
You know, the thing about it too is
that problem solving,
that takes creativity.
And so the same
creativity, the same muscle
that you use to make the paintings,
you can use to make changes in your life.
I am the most optimistic person
you will ever meet.
But I'm not kind of gaslighting people.
I just think it'll be,
when I say it'll be okay,
well, it'll be okay in
that it might be painful,
it might be
uncomfortable, it might be challenging,
but it'll be okay.
We'll get through it.
So I realize, you know what?
I'm gonna be in the
hospital for six to eight weeks.
But you know what?
It's one day at a time.
In fact, it's not even
really one day at a time.
It's so hard.
It's really, it's so, Hava, it's so hard.
I didn't know you could be
that tired and still be alive.
When I was hospitalized,
one day the nurse came in,
they write their name on the whiteboard.
She saw, "Mr. Molly,
you've been here 38 days."
I was like, "Oh, have I?"
Because I didn't
think about it like that.
I just kept doing one morning at a time,
one lunch time at a
time, one evening at a time,
and we'll begin tomorrow.
And that's all I could do.
And so learn to live in that moment.
We talk about, it's kind of cliche,
meditation to be
present, but yeah, be present.
It matters.
Be present and just don't,
we get all frustrated and
twisted and bent out of shape
because we wanna do six
weeks worth of stuff today
and you can.
We wanna get to the finish line now
and you better just lace up your shoes
and get comfortable on
the run along the way.
And then once you
realize that, you enjoy it more
and you understand more about yourself.
And that's what the journey is.
You really understand.
And that's what it's about.
That's the beauty of it, yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that's a
really good place to stop
and keep going forever.
Oh yeah, we can talk forever.
But yeah, I appreciate what you're doing
and I admire that you're
doing something different
and using your creative muscles
in a new and different way.
And honestly, I have to say this to you.
You're doing a really amazing job.
You're very good.
And you're as comfortable and as relaxed
as I when we first
talked about you doing this,
possibly doing this,
as I hoped you would be.
Oh good.
I'm really, I'm very, very pleased.
I think you're my child
and you're taking your first steps.
But you know, you're
doing a really good job.
Thanks.
(upbeat music)