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Leading Innovation & Change in through conversations with coaches, athletes and leaders in rowing.
I'm Alex Del Sur. I'm Alex Del Suro. I'm Alex Del Suro, and we have we have just Eddie. It's Eddie Sour. Lead it to France.
Speaker 1:Eric Nunez. It's Mahe Drysdale. It is sir Matthew Henson. Thank you. I'm Alex DelSor with Rowers Choice, and this is, 2026.
Speaker 1:And I I you know, you you you maybe you listened to the last one I did. I don't know. I mean, but it was with, Matt Russell. And we're going up the river or down the river. I don't know which way the Potomac moves, but we're not going very far to talk to the guy that I'm talking to now.
Speaker 1:And here's the thing. We get to speed through this because I'm gonna give you a link to listen to my original interview with him in September 2022. He was one of our first guys that we we interviewed in the podcast, and we got to learn about Julian. We got to learn about how he started rowing because his dad needed a coxswain. I'm trying to remember the story here because it's, like, awesome.
Speaker 1:He was he he's from New Jersey. His dad needed a coxswain. He jumps in the boat. He starts rowing, and, and and he moves, like I don't know. Like, he goes from a coxswain to a rower, and now he's a coach.
Speaker 1:He's been he's he's he's sat in the launch. He sat in the coxswain seat. He sat in the seat and rode it. And now he's running or has been running a team, that continues continues to get faster and stronger and better. And one thing I like about this guy love about this guy is his consistency, his love and passion for the sport, and we're gonna get all into that.
Speaker 1:But, you know, as you remember, what I did in the first episode with Matt Russell of the year is that we talk about, like, sort of the branding and the growth of junior rowing, club level rowing, the erosion of Scholastic because, you know, we we I just see it going away because, like, the bigger clubs are just taking over people. But we're gonna we're gonna see what's happened or what's changed in Julian's life since 2022. Let's get into it. Julian, thank you for coming back on. I think you're the first guy we've interviewed twice.
Speaker 1:Think that that you might have the crown for this one.
Speaker 2:What an honor, Alex. No. Thanks for having me on. It's great to be here, talk to you, and, yeah, catch you up with what's been going on with me. And, yeah, happy to share my point of view on the goings on in junior rowing, and, hopefully, people find it interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, some some people I don't know. Some people will. I don't know. But we're we're but look. So you in September '22, when you and I first had our talk, you were only a couple years in, I believe, to DC National.
Speaker 1:So, like, what so remind me when you started with them. What year?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I started in the 2018. And so I was in my fourth year, I think, when we talked or going to the fifth year. Now I think it's year eight. So, yeah, I think there've been some changes, some things not too different.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, it's been it's been keep enjoying it. So you know?
Speaker 1:Well, you say you know you know you know what's what happens in rowing, right, is you you don't see a lot of coaches that stick to one program for a long period of time. There's there's a lot of floaters. People jump from one club to another. They're constantly looking for the next thing. What has grounded you at DC National?
Speaker 1:You know, going in eight, nine years, like, what has kept you consistently getting after it being with the program? Obviously, you're growing the team. Right? Like, numbers consistently are always improving. What's what's grounded you?
Speaker 1:What's kept you there?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that a lot of it has to do I think people like having control over their work, being able to set things up the way they want, and that's something that I have a lot of at DC National. Because when I came in, unfortunately, it was on the verge of folding. And so I had to rebuild it, and it's given me a lot of leeway to set things up the way I want and experiment with different things. So it's been just interesting an interesting project and continues to hold my interest.
Speaker 1:Well, so eight years. So it's a I know. It's a board. There's a board. You have a board.
Speaker 1:You have a president. You have all these things. And what probably 99% of them are parents of the you know, of kids. Right? When I talked to Matt Russell, it's a it's a it's a true nonprofit.
Speaker 1:He's the president. He runs it. He he he you your dynamic is a little bit different, which and you're only, like, 25 miles away from each other. How how how do you structure your relationships with your board and your and your board members? Because, like, they're constantly changing.
Speaker 1:You probably had, what, three club presidents in the eight years you've been there?
Speaker 2:More. But More. Okay.
Speaker 1:So, like, what what's been how has that worked out for you? Positives, negatives? Like, how have you managed those relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah. To be honest, Alex, it was a lot harder in the beginning, which might speak to why I'm happy to stay I've been happy to stay here. Yeah. I think that when you come in as a new coach with new expectations and, you know, a new program, really, that there's gonna be a lot of questions, concerns from the parents, just a lot of on the people unsettled. And I think once you work through that and I I honestly I mean, I have a supportive board.
Speaker 2:I don't talk to people from the board every day or close to it. You know, it's my my interactions with parents are, you know, generally on my terms. So it's it's not been something that has been distracting for me in the last few years in terms of in terms of dealing with parents. I I think that coaching one thing that's important for maintaining productive relationship is knowing what your role is and what the board's role is. And coaching decisions, when it comes to look.
Speaker 2:Let's be honest. Ninety, ninety 5% of the complaints you get are about selection, or they originally go back to selection. And, you know, if you're clear and consistent with the fact that those decisions are squarely in your purview, that's that goes a long way to diffusing any sort of tension or conflict.
Speaker 1:Alright. So, I mean, that's yeah. That that's I'm glad you said that. You know, you you you said they have their role. I have my role.
Speaker 1:It's a supportive board. There was a period of time where you were kinda, like, learning each other, not so much in '22. Like, you you really had your thing put together then. It was really the earlier years. But talk to me about the size of the team and what, if anything, has changed, good or bad, since 2022 to 2026 where you are today?
Speaker 1:Like, team numbers, team focus, coaches. Like, walk me through the the growth or the changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So since 2022, I think the biggest change is we started our middle school program, which now has 35 kids or so in the spring, which has added a lot to our numbers. Our high school numbers have actually been relatively flat. You know, you mentioned you talked to Matt. And so for them them starting a spring program puts, you know, a competitor we didn't have before on their doors, and they're right.
Speaker 2:They're right
Speaker 1:in the heart
Speaker 2:of DC. So for us, you know, keeping our numb our high school numbers consistent over that period was a victory in my opinion. And, yeah, we've the boys numbers have gone down a little bit. Now they're they seem to be trending back up. The girls teams continue to grow.
Speaker 2:The middle school didn't exist before, and, yeah, now now seems to be thriving.
Speaker 1:With the with the with the middle school. So I got a 12 year old daughter, gonna be 13. You know, Lee Rumpf is chomping at the bit to get me to, you know, send her over there. I think he just wants a free boat. That's what I I'm gonna know, shout out to Lee.
Speaker 1:I think he's just trying to get me to donate a boat or something else for that. But middle school is challenging, man. I don't know. What does 35 kids look like compared to maybe other programs that you know that launch middle schools? Is that a lot of kids?
Speaker 1:Is that not a lot of kids? Do you have a dedicated coach to to the middle school?
Speaker 2:Yes. We have a couple of dedicated coaches who do a great job with with the middle schoolers. It's recreational. So it's not if there are eighth graders who are, you know, athletic enough and willing enough to and wanna come row with high schoolers, they can do that. But for most middle school kids, it's really just trying to expose them to the sport, have them get a sense of what it's all about.
Speaker 2:I think that, you know, middle the big challenge with middle schoolers is their attention span and trying to get them to work in bigger groups. It's hard rowing in eight with with middle schoolers. I think my experience, they really enjoy getting out in singles and small boats, having some control over their vehicle, and just having having the response the the feedback that you get from the boat every stroke. I think when oftentimes, they're in an eight and what they do has so little they get so little feedback on what they're doing since they're, you know, one eighth of the boat, and they have to do everything in time. And there's just so much going on.
Speaker 2:I think it's harder. So, yeah, we've been incorporating small boats and just trying to have fun with them.
Speaker 1:How many how many so is it sixth, seventh, and eighth? Is it is it through middle school, like, three years? How are you getting kids and parents to sign up? Like, what how are you promoting the sport to those local middle school places?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of it is word-of-mouth. And because it's two days a week for the middle schoolers, it's really easy for kids to bring their friends, generally speaking. Middle schoolers aren't engaged in some sport that they do six days a week. So it's something that kids can try, and it's not too big of a commitment. They They can see if they like it.
Speaker 2:It's it's been, honestly, fairly easy to get the numbers that we've had. I think having a good website, having, you know, good media pictures of your kids rowing. I think social media does some some good too.
Speaker 1:Sure. I mean, you guys, yeah, you guys you guys are pretty you're pretty active on there. I'm just like you know, I I just don't know if that's a lot if that's a lot of kids or not. You know, I I I don't know, like, in in how much dedication does it take to actually run that. Said you have two coaches that are that are that are focused on it.
Speaker 1:I I argue that, like, I love the idea of growing the sport. That's gotta be a pain in the butt, dude, dealing with sixth, seventh, and eighth graders with all the high school kids. Because how many high school kids do have? Like, a 100? Little over a 100 kids on the team?
Speaker 2:It's closer to 80.
Speaker 1:Yeah. 80. So you have so you have, like, a 115 kids two days a week in that little it's not even a boathouse, but, like, you know what I'm saying? That's gotta be chaotic, man.
Speaker 2:Well, we stagger them so they don't they're not there at the same time.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So they're not all on land at the same time or it would be too much. So, yeah, you do have to think about things like that, keeping the space, you know, productive and peaceful.
Speaker 1:Well, for those that don't understand, you know, your your boathouse situation, like, I yeah. Like, Matt Russell has, like, this big boathouse, and he has all this access. And you guys have a yard and shallow water and all these, like, challenging things. Like, like, you you must be at capacity, right, with what with how much space you have and how you have access to. Right?
Speaker 2:Not not really. No. I I think that you have if you're creative we're we're at capacity in terms of how many kids we can get out if everybody shows up at one time. But if you stagger when people show up, we have enough boats. We could get we could grow.
Speaker 2:We'd like to grow. And, yeah, it's something we're focused on right now.
Speaker 1:Well, so when I when I talking to, talk I mean, I'm just using Matt Russell as an example. I asked him what his focus is as a coach and as a as a the president of that club, and he says, we wanna be everything to everybody. You know, we wanna be the club that everyone loves to enjoy rowing. If you wanna be there two days a week, you can. What has been your focus these last four years?
Speaker 1:Are you are you seeking a national championship? Does that matter? Are you seeking being one of the best women's eights or women's fours in the country? What what has been the team's goal and focus?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that what you're trying to do or what you should be trying to do as a coach is help your rowers achieve their goals and keep your rowers at the center of what you're trying to help them ultimately as a coach. And so understanding what's important to them is really key to that. So, you know, we had a we had a discussion with our our boys and our girls groups this year. What kind of team do you wanna be? What do you want your opponents to say about you after they race after they race you?
Speaker 2:What do you want someone who's new to the team to think? What do you want their impressions to be of the team? What are the things that because, you know, for high schoolers, it's a time where they're figuring out their identity, and identity is really important to them. And so who do we wanna be, basically? And, you know, the boys, we kind of narrowed it down.
Speaker 2:They wanna their team, they want brotherhood. They wanna be disciplined, and they wanna be competitive. Right? So then when it comes to our coaching, it's like, okay. Well, what does a disciplined team look like?
Speaker 2:Right? What's what's inbounds? What's out of bounds? When our members of our team are competitive, what does that look like? What's inbounds?
Speaker 2:What's out of bounds? What's a connected team look like where guys treat each other like brothers? And so by kind of, like, listening to them and hearing what's important to them, you can kinda bring your coaching back to to those points to what they will ultimately want. And, you know, when they do things that aren't in line with their goals for themself, you know, you can just have a conversation with them about how, you know, what they're doing doesn't actually align with what what's good for them, what they want for themselves. So, yeah, just been trying to meet meet the rowers where they're at, trying to help them become the people they wanna be, trying to make practices as engaging as possible and as meaningful as possible to them.
Speaker 1:Okay. I've never so I I I remember talking about this before you you did this too. And when I stopped by your boathouse, we we've talked about this too. What an incredible exercise you do with your team. I don't I don't know how many coaches, and I'm gonna be interested when I do more of these interviews.
Speaker 1:Like, how many people do that? So you're choosing three, maybe more I love it. Brotherhood, discipline, competitive. Like, this is what we want for our program. That makes your job and your coaching job, like, so much easier.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. Like, you're letting then I love what you just said. You're like, well, I then figure out how far I can go with my program. I know let's define what, you know, competitiveness means. So at the end of the year, you might, you know, get eighteenth or twentieth or make the d final or c final at the national championship.
Speaker 1:It's not gonna matter as long as you hit these three markers. Right? Like, they walk away with these things. It was a discipline connected program. Now what about on the women's side?
Speaker 1:Did you do you do the same thing with the women. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the it was funny because they really chose very similar. They I didn't tell them what the other group said. But Really? The girls the girls picked connected, passionate, and disciplined.
Speaker 2:So you can see connected it's like brotherhood, and passionate, like competitive, slightly different, and they both had discipline. So I think what kids want is pretty it's somewhat universal. Right? And they wanna be fast. They wanna be they want to grow with people who take it seriously, who are into it like they are and who care about them and support them, have their backs.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's I mean, that's beautiful. Now how competitive are they? Like, how how where do you see your team being right now?
Speaker 1:Like, what what are what are your personal expectations on the competitive side?
Speaker 2:I think the girls group right now is is quite strong. It's about as strong as a group as we've had. So, yeah, we're hoping to be competitive in the eights. For us, that means being in the a b semifinal. But and and on the boys' side, it's a bit of a younger group.
Speaker 2:Might be a four. It might be an eight. We'll see. But, ultimately, we're we don't talk that much about our goals in terms of, like, okay. You wanna be we wanna be in the a b semifinal.
Speaker 2:Like, ultimately, if you come sixteenth in the country or you come seventeenth, no one's gonna remember, and no one's gonna care. Right? What what what really matters to these kids is who they are and and what their what their identity is and what goes into the end product, what the process is, who they are on a day to day level. And, you know, that's, I think, a way of keeping it more fun, keeping the pressure unnecessary pressure off. And, ultimately, you know, the product, the result is going to be determined by, you know, what we do every day, who we are every day.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm I'm I'm loving I'm loving this. You're also you know, I'm I'm thinking to myself, what have you changed in your life in the last four or five years since you and I had our first podcast interview? What what have you learned as a coach? Now, you I mean, you already said it.
Speaker 1:I mean, you you but you did you did a similar exercise, you know, four, five years ago with your team. You you've always been this kind of leader. But as a as a coach, what have you learned? What has changed in your life?
Speaker 2:I think that well, we have a a second person now who's full time, which we didn't have before, which has been a big change. And I think just learning more about not just doing my co thinking about myself and the coaching I'm doing, but thinking about her and her development and all the coaches on our staff and how we can get the most out of everyone. And, yeah, just how's how is everyone spending our their time where we can, you know, maximize our impact?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's more of like a I say fatherly, but, you know, that's probably the wrong word. But you really you're really approaching this more of a CEO level. Right? You're you're you've taken step back is the wrong word.
Speaker 1:Like, you're seeing things on a on a more global scale than probably you were four or five years ago when we were talking. Is that a fair is that a fair statement to to make?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know. I think CEO might be stretching it a little bit, but, you know, I'm I'm yeah. I'm I think I'm seeing things from a higher I have more perspective. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, we talked I think we talked about this back then too. It's like, do you wanna go coach at college? Do you wanna expand your you know, where where you take your rowing coaching? Eight, nine years with the program, it's an incredibly long time. I'm sure you've you've had the itch to move somewhere else, maybe try something else.
Speaker 1:I mean, has that crossed your mind at all in the last four years?
Speaker 2:I think so. You know, it's I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. So that's that's one thing. Once when you've been doing something for a while, I think it's natural for you to think about what life could be like in other circumstances. And but I'm really enjoying what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2:And, you know, as long as that's the case and the other part of it is that, you know, it's become a home for me. Yeah. I I'd like to make sure if, you know, if I were to leave that it's set up to do well and that it's mature mature enough to do that.
Speaker 1:I think you know me pretty well. Most people that listen to this kind of stuff, like, dude, I I can never sit still. Right? So for me, I'm like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing?
Speaker 1:So I'm what's the word I'm looking for? I I'm very I'm envious I'm envious that you are, like, so structured and happy and and stabilized that you don't need to go looking for the next big thing. It's something that I struggle with on a daily basis, and you know that about me. There's always something new. Right?
Speaker 1:And I wish I wish that wasn't the case sometimes. But let me get back to it. So in '22, when you when you and I talked, that's when TBC racing started really growing. You say you talked about competition. Know, I wanna I wanna talk about how you grow a club rowing program.
Speaker 1:Like, what what are the steps that you take reaching out? I know it's word-of-mouth, but, like, there's also there's other things that you do. There's a brand to it. There's a a language to it. There's where you focus.
Speaker 1:Like, your women's are focusing on eights. Right? Like, are you always focused on the eights? So, I love for people that are in club rowing right now, I wanna talk about how you grow and develop your team and also handle competition, not not competing on the water, but competing four bodies to row for your program.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think no. It's a good question. I think that who you are on it I think having your marketing be consistent with who you are on a day to day basis, something that I mean, for us, it it is. It's brotherhood.
Speaker 2:It's competitiveness. It's it's discipline. If you want your kid to be become one of us, join us. It's so having a clear identity is is really important. Having really engaging practices for the kids is important.
Speaker 2:You know, I think the marketing that happens with Instagram, Facebook ads, you know, pamphlets, it can it definitely helps, and it's good. And you want your stuff to be sharp. You want it to give people the right impression about you. You want you want to sell sell yourself, sell the sport. But, I mean, there's so many kids in the DC area.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a ton of high school rowing in the DC area as well. But there's so many kids at high schools who that don't have rowing. So as far as I'm concerned I mean, just look at, you know, Greenwich, Rye, Saugatuck that are all right next to each other, who have massive programs, incredibly competitive and successful. I don't think of it in terms of competing over bodies. There's plenty of kids to go around.
Speaker 2:What what we need to be trying to do is grow the sport, present something really compelling that people are drawn to, and we won't need to worry about, you know, thinking about things in a zero sum way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've you know, back when we started Rowers Choice, we were like, let's let's promote the hell out of rowing. Let's make this as big as possible. And then, you know, I get discouraged sometimes, like, hearing the numbers, you know, of the smaller programs. Like, you haven't grown beyond the eighty, ninety high school kids.
Speaker 1:Yes. You've got into, you know, the the the middle school level. But I'm seeing so many programs, especially where where we're from, the South Jersey region, the Jersey, they're they're a fraction of what they once were. Scholastic is going down. So I I don't think that as Rowers, we're doing a great job promoting the sport.
Speaker 1:Because I've talked to dozens of programs, and they're just not growing. They're just they're flat. And and I'm not I'm not I'm seeing in fact, I'm seeing more masters rowers grow. Masters rowing is growing exponentially faster than junior rowing. Part of the reason I wanna bring this podcast back is to to get on my soapbox and be like, what can we get back into this again, please?
Speaker 1:Can we start from going to high schools and getting kids engaged, not just word-of-mouth, but, like, getting out there? I'm we're I'm concerned. I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I think that the the teams that are struggling right now, I would say that the big limiting factor in terms of getting people hooked and safely on the water, having a great time is coaching, having competent having competent coaches. And, you know, I see a lot of teams that put their resources into they always have a new boat, but every spring, they're advertising for a new coach. Well, you know, that's that's not that's not a wise way to be spending your resources. And, you know, I'm glad you brought up Masters Rowing.
Speaker 2:I think the the health of junior rowing is tied to the health of the health of the sport overall. And three of our coaches on our staff, I met because I was coaching the Baltimore adult women in the morning, and they were rowing there. And so I I think that, yeah, as as as much as possible, investing in coaches. And, you know, there's so many people, Row, in college and and and in high school, and then what do they do as adults? Most of them, you know, leave the sport behind.
Speaker 2:I worked with Jeff Ditter at ball who coaches Baltimore. Rowing does an amazing job heading up their adult programs. And look. We just got three coaches from from because these people who wrote in college had an adult program that they could go to that was competitive, that was interesting. I would never would have known about these people if they hadn't stayed involved with the sport.
Speaker 1:Man, resource spending. Like, can we just talk on that really quick? Can we, like, talk about resource spending? Because it got you're, like, the poster child for this, dude. I you're like alright.
Speaker 1:Julian, I I you buy a lot of boats from me. We work on your on your boats, you know, at finish line. You have it, in my opinion, figured out. I get so angry when I see programs buying brand new boats every year, every other year. You do not need brand new boats to be competitive.
Speaker 1:Now I'm not I'm not going down hard on manufacturers. Without manufacturers, this sport would not exist. K? But, yes, you find a way to buy relatively inexpensive equipment. You maintain them right because you then put that money into the coaching, into other things and other activities like travel and whatnot.
Speaker 1:I you're right. Coaches get blinded by a brand new beautiful m poker when they should be spending that kind of money on a better coach. And you're right. Coaching is the limiting factor. I think I've been saying that for how many years now?
Speaker 1:Six years? Ever since I started the podcast, I've been saying this nonstop. Like, this is our limiting factor. What do you say you, Julian, what do you say to coaches that are on that fence of buying a brand new boat versus investing in their coach? Like, what advice would you have for them?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that, ultimately, what's what has a bigger impact on the experience of the kids in the program is not it it doesn't make a huge difference if they're rowing a four year old boat or a five year old boat or a brand new boat, but it does make a difference if you have coaches that you can count on who are committed, who are engaging, and deeply invested in in the success of the team. So, you know, some some places for us, you know, we're as you mentioned, like, we're not in the heart. We're not in DC proper. We're out where not as many people live. It's harder to get it to get people out to I mean, for us, it's harder to get people to come coach just because of where it is.
Speaker 2:And so you have to pay them. You know? If you if you want people to take it seriously and and and not get other ideas about what they wanna do. Obviously, people are always gonna have their ideas. But if you want people to be committed to it, pay them so that they don't they're not they're not thinking about how they need to go get a big boy job or do something else.
Speaker 2:You know? That's
Speaker 1:No. It's just the truth. Mike Wallin, a dear friend of mine, that he he figured that out at Chicago years ago is that I mean, that he does he can afford new boats pretty consistently just because of the size of his program. I mean, he's got a couple 100 kids in the program, but, he said to me, he's like, yeah. I just want my best friends coaching with me every day, and I'm gonna do whatever it to keep them here.
Speaker 1:And they have a livable wage. They have a livable, you know, lifestyle, and it's expensive to live in Chicago. It's expensive to live in DC. But, you know, long are the days of the nineties and early two thousands when coaches like us or coaches like Matt Russell were obsessed with the sport. They didn't care how much money they were making.
Speaker 1:They were little living know, they were working multiple jobs, and they just they wanted to talk about rowing all day, all day every day. Like, we don't have that anymore in in, like, our coaching world. I don't see that. I don't see obsessive coaches being okay making three or four thousand dollars or $10,000 in a season, because they know they gotta work their way up. Right?
Speaker 1:I don't see that anymore. Maybe maybe maybe you see. You're you're smiling, but I don't think I see it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, Alex. I wonder, you know, if we're just getting old.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm 40, bro. Alright. Like, I'm you're younger than me.
Speaker 2:So got not by much. But, you know, the people who are who are like that, I think, are in their twenties, and, you know, we're not hanging out with them like that anymore.
Speaker 1:So Maybe you're right. God. You know what? I was hoping you say I was right because, like but you're true. You're right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I am old now. I I I got I got kids my kids are closer to age to those young coaches than I am to them. Right? Like, that's a hard pill to swallow.
Speaker 1:But that's that's life. Right? So Scholastic Rowing. I wanna, like, I wanna move into this. It's I think it's eroding.
Speaker 1:I think it's going away because of these bigger programs. You know, these bigger programs have a lot more to offer. They're faster. Their friends are ship jumping ship. I look at the numbers at TBC, and I'm seeing more kids rowing for TBC racing than I see in other Scholastic programs.
Speaker 1:If Scholastic programs go away, we have a problem. Baldwin School is a is a good example up, on Boathouse Row. Meredith is a wonderful woman, I was up there with her recently. And I said, how's things going? She says, I'm you know, the program's fine.
Speaker 1:We're we're we're surviving, but we're losing it to all the local competitive teams. And the health of the sport is masters, is Scholastic. Stokes Barre numbers are down. There's fewer teams competing. There's fewer entries in the eights than ever before.
Speaker 1:Do you see this as a problem for our sport? Do you think it really doesn't matter? Because if you look at youth rowing championships are how much larger? I mean, twenty, thirty, 40% larger than four, five, or six years ago. So many more entries, and then Scholastic is is going away.
Speaker 1:And as a and you are a Scholastic grower, former. What's your what's your take on it? What do you where where do you see it going?
Speaker 2:There's definitely a trend from Scholastic programs to club programs. That's something that I think is is hard to deny. I think that the bigger let's put it this way. I think that is that a bad thing? Maybe it is.
Speaker 2:Maybe it isn't. But what can we really do? Right? Like, you're no one's gonna outlaw clubs. Clubs can clubs can just pop up.
Speaker 2:You can put up, you know, your shingle in on your boathouse door and open up a club anywhere you like as long as there's water and all that. I think the thing that's we should be trying to figure out is basically how to get more kids involved in the sport. You know, our own team, about 15% of kids have rowing at their high school. So most of our kids, the vast majority of our kids would not be rowing if there wasn't a club team. I don't see us as, you know, kind of being vultures off of of of other programs.
Speaker 2:I also think that to an extent well, from from the kids' perspective, from the Rowers' perspective, having a choice is good. You know? It's not if you're if you're stuck somewhere that you can only row one place, I don't see how that how that serves the Rowers. I think competition kind of forces everybody to do a better better job if they want to but if they wanna survive. But, you know, I I generally I generally reject the idea that it's zero sum, that clubs are gonna feed off of Scholastic teams and and kill them.
Speaker 2:There's plenty of kids to go around. If you focus on, as a coach, on doing a really good job, making sure kids are engaged, that, you know, practices are really meaningful to them, that we can get more kids interested in the sport. That's that's yeah. Those are
Speaker 1:Well, the zero sum. Alright. I I I I get it. You you reject it. I get it.
Speaker 1:I I I get it. You know, Scholastic Rowing is partially funded by the school, by taxpayers. It makes it it's a less expensive option for the club rower. Like, I I'm looking at it at that level. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, when you have a dedicated high school program that's subsidized partially by taxpayer money, k, it's the school. It's a public school. It's easier for kids to compete. And I'm watching. And and and as a father, I I don't even know how much Emily and I pay to send our kids to all these, you know, activities.
Speaker 1:And, like, now travel is more expensive than ever. You know? It I don't even know how much you spend personally for your program to go to the Charles. It must be insane. Right?
Speaker 1:And then you have all these other regattas that you have to go to. My worry and I'm trying to figure out a way to, like, solve this because I don't have a solution yet. But Scholastic Rowing is a less expensive option for people who can't afford it. And it that is the that is a that is a baseline truth. Right?
Speaker 1:And I don't know. Like, for our programs to compete, I don't know how much your dues are now, but, you know, 1,800, 2,000, $2,500 for a season, two seasons, it becomes a problem, and it's not subsidized, by Scholastic. So I don't know, man. I'm I'm I'm I'm looking like at 40 years old, I'm looking at what does life look like ten years from now, five years from now. And I predicted five years ago, right after COVID, that we were gonna have a problem, that that the sport was gonna erode, and it is eroding.
Speaker 1:It's shifting to masters racing. There's not enough junior rowing, and I think a lot of it has to to deal with cost. I think a lot of it has to do with junior programs, just clubs getting bigger and it's classy going away. That's my position. That's where I sit.
Speaker 2:I should say too, you know, schools can still be competitive. And what you're talking about with, you know, smaller programs losing out, I mean, I I see that. I also see, you know, Saint Joe's prep. You know, I see Bell and Jesuit. I see New Trier.
Speaker 2:I see Montclair. I see Winter Park, you know Mhmm. Up competitive with inmates and the biggest cat
Speaker 1:Mount Mount Saint Joe. I mean, Mount Mount Saint
Speaker 2:Joe. Every year. You're right. Yeah. So I think that the the it can be done.
Speaker 2:I think that you need you need great coaches. You need people who are really invested, and you need stability because it doesn't get turned around in in a year or two. And and and people need to invest in their coaches. People need to you know, clubs that are in danger, put your money into your into hiring great coaches and, you know, maybe don't buy that brand new boat. That's not gonna change the trajectory of your program, but a new coach might.
Speaker 2:So that's that's what I see. I I hear you on the on the affordability. I think it's important that for clubs to have funds available for people who the fees are too expensive for. And, yeah, that's and look. I mean, people talk about the advantages of club rowing all the time.
Speaker 2:But having coached at a Scholastic program, I can tell you that building a sense of team when all the kids go to class together every day and have known each other since they were kids, that has its own advantage. And I think Scholastic programs have can have a really bright future, but people need to invest in the right things. And I think that's I think that's in coaches.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Sorry for the sometimes there's, like, not I could there's never awkward silence with you and me. I'm just trying to figure out, like I'm trying to I'm reengaging in the sport. I was away for a little bit, and I'm reengaging. And I'm back talking to a lot of coaches, and I'm back talking to the programs and traveling.
Speaker 1:And the the disheartening thing to me is nothing's changed in two years. So, like, to where what I'm seeing, nothing's really changed, and that that that that bothers me. And we're not trying to solve it right now, but I'm just telling you, like, what I've seen. I had you you remember in 2121, I started doing these competitions and, I don't know, interviewed thousands of people. I was, like, all energized that we're gonna change the sport.
Speaker 2:So and what do you see as the big problems?
Speaker 1:The big problems right now? Well, you hit the nail on the head. It's the coaching. CJ I, and I, go through a list of of each territory in the country. Right?
Speaker 1:And we we focus on a territory over a two or three week period. And we look at coaching, and we look at, like, who the contacts are, and I'm seeing it I'm seeing rotation faster than I've ever seen it before. 60 it was like no. It was like 70% of contacts in the Southeast Region, were all brand new contacts, like new coaches. And most of them, I never even heard of.
Speaker 1:So that, I'm seeing a huge thing. And then the drastic rise in dues, like, for kids, parents, it's way more expensive than it was two or three years ago, and the money is becoming a problem. So I'm seeing I'm seeing more expensive competition, more expensive travel, making it a strain where these coaches and these teams are now picking and choosing which regattas they wanna go to. And, like, Dadvale is all but gone. Dadvale, you know, I could say this I could say this, but there was talks about Merd Dadvale trying to merge with other other regattas to keep them alive.
Speaker 1:So that that that is those are the two biggest things that I'm seeing. And I don't know. I mean, again, I don't know how much your dues are, but if you're if a parent has to spend $2,500 a season, $5,000 a year, and they make just over 120 a year, a $130,000 a year, that becomes a really hard decision to make, you know, for the kids, plus the travel dues and everything else. You know? This is a very expensive this this sport has become too expensive.
Speaker 1:Oh, and the rise in cost of new boats has gone up dramatically. So those three things I've noticed in the last two years. And I just don't see I don't see us, like, a quick solution.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that, you know, the issue with the expense is a problem across youth sports in America right now.
Speaker 1:In general. You're right. In general. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're right. And I don't know exactly why that is. I should probably read about it. But I I think we are experiencing some of that. I know, you know, cost with US Rowing entering US Rowing regardless, that cost has gone way up.
Speaker 2:Cost of insurance has gone up. A lot of expenses have gone up. And, yes, on an environment like that to keep paying coaches and, you know, doing the things you need to do, it it gets harder. I do think that there's I think that there are a lot of people involved in the sport, whether through their kids or themselves who have money, and keeping the the sport affordable through scholarships and things like that, something that I think is really important if we want the sport to grow, if we want to be competitive on the world stage. And, yeah, I mean, as far as as far as your first point about coaches, all the turnover with coaches, anyone who decides they wanna coach knows it's a leap of faith.
Speaker 2:You're putting it so much time into my dad actually started coaching a program in New Jersey, Carney High School.
Speaker 1:Really?
Speaker 2:Yeah. A few years ago. He he did it for, like, two, three years. But the amount of time involved, Alex, when you're in regard to season, you know, you can't put in even forty hours a week, I think. It's more than that.
Speaker 2:And to take that on for a whole season, it's a huge leap of faith. And if you don't find it rewarding enough, whether it's because, you know, you're getting a lot of blowback from parents or because, you know, monetarily, it's not doesn't seem like the juice is worth the squeeze. It's you know, those things those things lead people who love the sport and wanna contribute to Leaf, unfortunately. And, yeah, we've we've gotta make the sport a better place for coaches, I think, is one way one way to help ourselves out of this place.
Speaker 1:That that well, that that, yeah, that that is yeah. That is the it's also a young man. I mean, coaching is a young man's game. Like, that's what it is, dude. Like, I know you don't have children Or a woman.
Speaker 1:Have any children. Or
Speaker 2:a woman. Or a
Speaker 1:you're a young man. Well, you're right. Thank you for saving me on that. I there is no way that Emily would let me coach crew right now. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, if I went back into it and started coaching Annapolis or I called you up and like, Julian, you got me, brother. I'm in. Like, I'm a good coach, bro. But I could not commit my weekends and my activities and all. I could not commit that much time.
Speaker 1:So it's a young man or woman's game. And the 20 year olds and the 25 year olds, huge turnover, not great pay. You're right. They get frustrated. If the board is not committed, then it it it it goes away.
Speaker 1:And they're like, why am I dealing with this? I don't wanna deal with this anymore. And they just give up and move on. But that that that anyway, those are the things that I'm seeing. So alright.
Speaker 1:Last thing. You know, you got you got the season now starting up in, what, two months or something. Right? You got winter season. Where do you, as a coach, focus your energy right now?
Speaker 1:So this this is the this is the winner. Right? You got you got erging whatever. People listening to this, like, I want them to think about, like, what does Julian do now leading up to the spring? Like, what are what are your things that you focus on?
Speaker 1:Because because by March 1, dude, the season ends it's so fast. Right? Everything moves so fast. You got so much going on. What are you doing right now in the dark, cold winter to prepare yourself for the season?
Speaker 2:Getting our our spring and summer information out to people and trying to trying to get more people involved in the sport, I think, is one thing that's really important. It's plenty of time to do right now. But, yeah, I mean, other than that, trying to help our there there's some fleet things that we're doing. But, yeah, just trying to help our our rowers live up to the version of themselves that they're that they their vision their vision for themselves, what they'd like the person they'd like to be. So, you know, just calling out a lot of things that aren't behaviors that aren't serving serving kids.
Speaker 2:It's not a it it is a quiet time of year, a quieter time of year than in the spring or fall for sure.
Speaker 1:You're not, like, you're not setting I mean, have you already figured out your schedule of races? Like, all that stuff's behind you, or do you wait for do that? Like, I
Speaker 2:I'd say 98%. Maybe a few details we're sorting out still. But, yeah, schedule's set schedule's set for the summer. I mean, everything is kind of in motion already. So, you know, it's just about getting the word out now and promoting it.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, if you have your dates up earlier, it helps.
Speaker 1:And then how many so how many practices do you attend with with them right now? Like, how is this a six day a week thing, or what's your training like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we're not training on Saturdays right now. Our space isn't available. In years past, we try to get on the water, but it's cold. We're only able able to get out in the water twice last year, so we we did away with that.
Speaker 2:So we're training Monday through Friday. I'm coaching the boys sessions and the girls sessions, so, you know, two two practices a day, five days a week.
Speaker 1:I was hoping you're gonna give me more. Like, you're like, oh, yeah. These are all the things that we're doing. But, yeah, this is, like, this is, like, the boring time. Right?
Speaker 1:This is the boring time of of of of of rowing. Right? When do you expect to go on the water?
Speaker 2:It's gonna get crazy, though. It's not it's just less than a month away. So you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you're gonna be, what, February, you're back on the water?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So I've got about three weeks, and then and then things will ramp up. So I'm kind of enjoying the, the quiet right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was gonna ask you, just because I I remember, like, when when do you take a break, like, as a coach, as a guy that's, like, running this program? Like, when when are your breaks? When are your, you know, big deep breath moments?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Something that we've been, you know, kind of figuring out with also I mean, I I basically had only been taking breaks ever when we have breaks from rowing
Speaker 1:Yep. Right.
Speaker 2:Between seasons. But that's something that, you know, I've learned kinda need to have a bit more flexibility on, especially in the fall I mean, sorry, in the winter and the summer. You know, if people if people need to go away or wanna go away, you know, within reason, you know, we allow for that. But, you know, I I also love it. You know?
Speaker 2:I love I love being at practice when I am away from it for too long. I don't feel good. I don't feel as good about myself. I think there's a social aspect to it, you know, interacting with people and, you know, having an effect on people, all the energy the kids bring, you know, keeps you young, keeps you on your toes a bit more. So, you know, I love it.
Speaker 1:Well, you're gonna have you're gonna have a great season, and I'm excited to watch you, like, compete again. Like, I'm I'm gonna be going a lot of regattas this year. I'm I'm I'm really looking forward to it. But, Julian, this has been this has been lovely. I always like talking to you.
Speaker 1:I always feel better when I talk to you. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's your calming nature, dude. Don't know. You're laughing, but no.
Speaker 1:It's I'm serious. Like, I I I love I love catching up with you.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm glad you're I'm glad you're back in the rowing world, Alex, and, you know, it's good to have you back. We need people like you. We need we need the energy from wherever you know?
Speaker 1:Wherever we can get it. Right? Dude, can I tell you what I'm doing right now? Like, can I tell you what my plans are? Do you mind?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, little selfish right now? So I'm I'm racing again. So I did a lot of racing in '21 through '23. And I think I'm going to Amsterdam for this Heineken race or whatever.
Speaker 1:No. But I'm doing I'm doing Masters Worlds at Lake Bled. So Oh, okay. So Emily is back in the boat. She's training with Annapolis.
Speaker 1:And now that my kids are old enough, we're all gonna fly over. And Grace is gonna watch Graham and Oliver while Indy and Emily race in a double together. So I'm I'm like, I'm the Del Sodas are back, baby.
Speaker 2:Oh, man. It sounds like a that's a dream. You know?
Speaker 1:It's a dream, man. Family. And, like, having having my kids cheer for us and, you know, you don't know him, but Tim Spell, he's back in racing again. He's a guy that I went to GW with. So and Pete Seymour.
Speaker 1:So I got this group of of guys who are all, like, gonna be racing and competing with each other again, and I'm on the ERG. I'm lifting. It just it feels like I really missed the sport these last two years, and I I'm I'm, like, giddy. I'm excited, and I'm excited to talk to coaches again. Just like you said, how you you hate being away, right, from your program too long, you you feel like you're missing something.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like I've been missing something, and it's been two years. So I'm I'm, like, back in the saddle.
Speaker 2:Good time to pick up the handle again, Alex, and you know? Weight?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Put some weight behind that thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can't wait to crank it. Anyway, this is episode, two of 2026 with, with Julian from DC National, and we got a lot more of these. So tune in for next episode. I'm excited for this one.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna tell you who it is, but there's he coaches a fast program. I'll just put it that way. Anyway and I hope you enjoy. We're gonna put a link here for for Julian's team. If you wanna learn more about DC National, you know where to find it.
Speaker 1:Julian, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Alright. Thanks, Alex.