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What if you’re not lost, just living in a part of the story no one talks about? Holding Patterns is a podcast about the in-between. The messy, undefined seasons of life where nothing quite makes sense. Hosted by Ashton Arnold, a deeply curious traveler who is carving out a life beyond the conventional path. Ashton leads guests through the kind of conversations that get honest, intimate, and are rooted in what it actually means to be human. This show is for people who’ve felt unsure, off-course, or like they’re making it up as they go. Each episode features a conversation with someone who has built a life outside the typical script, unpacking the moments where success felt out of reach. From travel and relationships to money and mental health, nothing’s off-limits. Holding Patterns is here to remind you that you’re not behind, you’re not alone, and you’re allowed to figure it out your own way.
Kate x Ashton FINAL
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Welcome to Holding Patterns
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[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Ashton, and this is Holding Patterns. This is a podcast about the in-between moments of life, the ones full of uncertainty. I've spent the last couple years living abroad, starting over, and living in the in between longer than I care to admit. These moments I've found, though, aren't something to rush through.
They actually shape the majority of our lives. So this is a place to talk about them and to hear people's stories from the in between.
Meet Kate
---
Like today, we are going to talk to my friend Kate. Kate is an Outward Bound instructor and a middle school English teacher. But outside of the career labels, she is also an enthusiast of escaping into the wilderness, one of our [00:01:00] many bonding points.
Also an enthusiast of karaoke, dissecting song lyrics and Mary Oliver poems, burritos with extra cilantro, and one of my favorite things about her, she is the biggest advocate of earnestness, which of course we dive into a lot more throughout the episode. In addition to that, we talk a lot about perfectionism and mistaking achievement as worth.
Yeah, something I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, especially as I've mentioned in a lot of other episodes, eldest daughters, this one's for you. We also talk about how the impact of our environment and the people we surround ourselves by can really consciously or subconsciously affect our decision-making.
we talk about the duality of our wants and desires and how we determine what voice should have more power in our lives, in our decision-makings, all of it. think this is a great episode for everyone, and I hope [00:02:00] you all can take something away from it. You hopefully learn a thing or two about living more earnestly.
So here is the episode with Kate
Ashton:
First Year Teaching Lessons
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Ashton: How have you been?
Kate: I've been good, dude.
I'm almost done with my first year of teaching
Ashton: even believe that. How has it been? 'Cause I saw you right the, like, literally the week you were gonna start
Kate: oh my gosh, you're right.
it has been so many things.
Like like the whole range, every human emotion I have experienced now. I've been tested but I feel like I can't even, I don't even know if I'd like recognize myself before this job. Like I feel like I've had to fast track unlearn people pleasing and fast track boundaries, protect my peace,
in a good way.
Like I had to [00:03:00] do it to
survive, but now I'm like, whoa, I feel like I can handle a lot more.
Ashton: Do you have kind of an overall consensus of like, it, it's been great and you love it and you wanna do it again? Or you're like, "I'm so grateful for the lessons, but I'm done"?
Kate: No, I'm so in. especially because, everyone says, like, your first year of teaching is hell,
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: no one remembers it. You're just, in survival mode. And,
like, yes, it's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but, I'm still here, like, with my sanity.
if I can make it through this, I'm like, ", if I can handle middle school and, like, I think, I don't know, it's building my
confidence.
Ashton: you started at, like, the hardest I feel like you could possibly start at
Kate: like with no, like formal
teaching besides Outdoor Ed, but that's like the difference between managing people whose like life is on the line 'cause you're like guiding the boat that they're relying on versus in a classroom, which is not [00:04:00] their favorite space, is crazy.
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: they are so funny. Are you.
Ashton’s Winter Holding Pattern
---
Kate: back at your guiding
Ashton: I s- that's why I'm back in, I'm in Colorado right now.
Kate: Okay. I was curious 'cause of your, the end of your podcast, you were like, "I'm in a holding pattern." I'm like, "Does that mean you don't know what's next?"
Ashton: Well, I was, yeah, so I was unemployed all winter, so I didn't work for the last five months, which is crazy. but yeah, so I start this week. I literally start driving to Vegas on Thursday
Kate: Is it the
Ashton: for
Kate: Are you try- are you going anywhere new you haven't
Ashton: Yeah, it's the same, it's the same trips as last year. There's a couple new ones, but it's the same stuff as last year, which thank God, honestly, because
Kate: like know what's up
Ashton: the amount of stress I was under last year,
Kate: Learning, I'm, I'm sure learning curve was crazy
Ashton: Like, I think I was operating on a state of,
I don't think I calmed down for ever, and I was just in it, so I like [00:05:00] was getting through it. But then coming out the other side of it, I was like, "Oh my God. that was really intense."
Yeah
life in the winter, it was so peaceful and chill.
Kate: You were in Fernie again?
Ashton: No, I was in Nelson.
Kate: You were Nelson.
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: Nelson
Ashton: loved it. It was like the best place to be unemployed
Kate: Oh
Ashton: It was amazing. Yeah, I just snowboarded and I did, I f- the best yoga studio I've ever been to in my life.
Yeah, and then I did this podcast. Like I,
Kate: Dude, this is a cool, this is a good way to spend
Ashton: I,
Kate: time.
Ashton: yeah, It's been fun.
Kate: your end products, it, it sounds awesome.
Ashton: Thank you.
Kate: like, enjoying
it. I, I, like, sometimes forgot I was, like, listening to my friend.
Ashton: Thank you
We'll see what happens. It's, it's fun right now.
And it's just fun to talk to friends,
Kate: I know.
And it's just like you've collected all these friends who like have this common thread, I feel like,
you're not gonna run out of people to talk
to.
Ashton: I every time I think of somebody, I have a whole [00:06:00] notes app on my phone, and I think I have, like, 25 people right now. You were one of them.
Kate: I'm honored you reached out
to
Ashton: checking you off the list today. But yeah,
Well, okay.
How We Met in New Zealand
---
Ashton: how I've been kind of starting these is how we know each other and how we met. So we met in New Zealand.
Kate is one of my many New Zealand people I picked up, but we're actually both from Colorado. we grew up, what, like an hour, two hours from each other, I guess, so in different parts of Colorado. But, happened to meet in New Zealand because of friends of friends, random connections. and I didn't know anybody when I moved to New Zealand, so I cold called Nelly, who was Kate's, one of Kate's best friends, and I sent a text and was like, "Hey, I'm moving here and I don't know a single person.
Will you be friends with me?" Basically. And, um, and then Nelly and I ended up being roommates because a room opened up where she was.
Kate: you actually live
Ashton: Yeah, for a month. For a month shout out to Joe and Donna, I [00:07:00] think.
Kate: and
Ashton: Joe and Donna. Um, they, Nelly and I lived with these 50-year-old women there.
Kate: In this very eclectic
Ashton: Oh, that is one way to put it.
But anyway, so I met Kate and a whole friend group there, and then we quickly went on a backpacking trip, uh, maybe like a week after I met you guys,
Kate: Was it only... Yeah,
Ashton: Week or two week. It was really, really fast.
Kate: Yeah,
Ashton: It was the first time I ever saw the mountains in New Zealand, like the full scope of them, and I just, that will forever be ingrained in me, that trip, And you guys had already been there for, I think, two months,
Kate: Yeah
Ashton: by the time I got there.
So they kinda were like my Sherpas for a little bit
our whole New Zealand, journey was together until you left.
When did you leave? In June?
Kate: we did the Kiwi
track. That was like my last trek
Ashton: Yes,
Kate: the whole time, and then
I then I went to the small town of Nelson to get my yoga
training, and then I flew back to the States [00:08:00] and like went to Moab right away and started
Outward Bound. Like it was just like, all right,
boom, boom, boom, boom,
Ashton: Yeah, the plan kind of fell into place for you there. Yeah, I remember that.
anyways, yeah, that's g- that's the context to our relationship and how we met. Um, but I would love for you to introduce yourself to anyone who has no idea who you are, just a little bit,
Kate: Boy, big one. Who are you? Um, so I feel like that you and I live very parallel lives in that, like, when you were describing, like, your synopsis, I was like, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm."
Ashton: Relatable
Kate: same thing, like, grew up in Colorado, traditional family model, fell into the eldest daughter archetype very strongly.
Middle kid, sweet
older brother, best friend ever little sister, really great parents. grew up in Fort Collins.
and yeah, just really with, this amazing childhood and surrounded by the very traditional molds.
Gonzaga Outdoors and Mentors
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Kate: then [00:09:00] went to Gonzaga for college.
Ashton: Gonzaga's in Washington State.
Kate: in Spokane.
and the funny thing is, like, I also studied business, but, like, I like to joke that, I rushed my outdoor program because, like, that was kind of all I was obsessed with when I was out
there
Ashton: 'Cause when I met you guys, so this whole group that I met in New Zealand, all of them, ba- basically all of you went to Gonzaga pretty much.
Kate: Yeah
Ashton: I remember you guys telling me about the outdoor program when I first met you, and I was like, "I can't even believe something like this exists.
I didn't even know it." So maybe briefly describe what the outdoor program was like there.
Kate: Yeah. The outdoor program is absolutely insane and it like, I was so obsessed with it that I turned it into my career unknowingly as I got into it. But it's basically this program where, I guess this happens in a lot of colleges, but for some reason there was like some magic sauce in it where you get trained how to be a backpacking guide and how to be a raft guide, and then [00:10:00] you, um, lead trips for other college students. and so that's where I met like all of my closest friendships.
Ashton: Did you start that freshman year?
Kate: yeah,
there's this orientation program, it's like 70 freshmen sleep on a tarp under the stars in Montana, and you go bike
Ashton: So sick
Kate: you go hiking to this beautiful lake, and then one of the days you go rafting on the Alberton Gorge, which is near Missoula, Montana.
And like that day I was like, "Ooh, how do I,
how Do I make myself a part of this?" So then like that freshman year, spent almost every weekend I could signing up for trips and then became a trip leader and training to do all the things I became like the events coordinator
Ashton: have you met anybody who went to a different college that did anything like this? 'Cause I have never heard of it
Kate: maybe it isn't as common. Like I've heard of like there's like hiking clubs and
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: stuff like that?
but I
guess you're right, like the mentorship.
Ashton: Yeah, the leading trips and I think it's very unique to Gonzaga
Kate: [00:11:00] must be right. And like the uniqueness of Spokane is like Spokane itself isn't like this like premier destination, but it's like hour south of Canada and an
It's an hour about west of Idaho, like the Panhandle and Montana, and that's where I was spending a lot of time.
Ashton: think it's very unique
Kate: Yeah. And like I think what made it unique was the mentors within it. So like the
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: mentor at the time who worked there, he, um, had a lot of experience with Outward Bound, and so that's kind of what led me
Ashton: Full circle.
Kate: me what Outward Bound was.
Basically, he was such a great mentor that I eventually went into like commercial, rafting,
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but eventually pivoted into outdoor education because my mentor was so awesome. I'm like: How can I be around people like this with
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: about the outdoors that isn't bro-y, elitist, gotta have the best gear, gotta do-- have the, have the biggest summit?
Ashton: Absolutely
Kate: nerds who are just like, "Look [00:12:00] at the, look
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: I don't know.
Ashton:
Barriers to Entry in the Outdoors
---
Ashton: I think that's a characteristic of all of you guys who I met in music. 'Cause you, I mean, I am an outdoorsy person. Again, I'm saying with quotes. But it's funny 'cause when you go to more outdoorsy places, I don't know if you've had this experience, but then you just feel like less and less because there's so many, people always know so much more than you.
And I remember I had backpacked before, but not to the extent that you guys had. And so meeting you guys, I j- I learned so much from you, Caroline, Nelly, like so much from you guys. it's so special because in the outdoors industry, it can be so elitist and competitive and it's like, I think we talked about this so much, like the barrier to entry into the outdoors and sports can be so high.
And to meet people that just want to like bring other people into that is so special. And you guys were absolutely that for me. So it's, you, you passed that along from the [00:13:00] mentor. You totally did
Kate: thing is like access of cost, access of like just the intimidating, there's all these like random words and acronyms and like
gear and it's like,
why? Like cut through that
Ashton: It's, and safety.
Kate: Yeah, that, see that one's big.
I know that
Ashton: I remember saying that to Caroline, I think, you can't necessarily go try this on your own
Kate: Yeah
Ashton: you could easily die one night in the backcountry by yourself.
you don't think about it that way, but some, just one little thing goes wrong and you're not prepared. Even when you are prepared, sometimes it's life or death. In, in a lot of outdoor sports, you need somebody to show you, which can be hard.
Kate: And it's such a gift. I'm so grateful that I was introduced to all these things and, like, building these technical skills, it was in a non-toxic environment by people who are just, like, loving and, like, doing it out of genuine love.
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: I got mentorship from my program, but also, when the pandemic hit, we both were in Fort [00:14:00] Collins and had nothing to do, and she taught me, like, a lot about backpacking.
We would-- That's, like, all we would do. We'd go backpacking and, like, Caroline is, and
she's just like
Ashton: Caroline we're referencing is the one who is a couple episodes back that but yes, as we talk about in the episode with her, she's so, she's so humble. She so underplays herself. so
if we put outdoorsy in a dictionary, like Caroline's picture
Kate: She's
Ashton: is under that.
Yeah, she is
Kate: even knowledgeable about like technical outdoor skills, but like about environment
Ashton: But to have friends like that and people like that to, to introduce you into those spaces is special
Kate: Yeah, and then going back to raft guiding, so I like learned how to raft guide through my program, but it was through this like really sweet mom-and-pop company, in Missoula or outside of Missoula.
And the, all of the like instructors when I was there was a bunch of yoked women who were just like yanking boats
Ashton: Nice
Kate: strong and not in like this bro-y assertive way, [00:15:00] but just in this like confident way. And I feel like having those as role models, I was still like a shyer person, and that like made me feel so confident
Ashton: Absolutely
Kate: really empowering thing to have like those kind of role models, and
yeah, I'm just so lucky
Ashton: I hope that starts to ch- change a little bit in the industry. But I mean, I s- you know, the good thing about social media is that the... I feel like it does help the barrier to entry a little bit, um, just from knowledge perspective
Kate: Yeah,
Ashton: do, if there's any positives on it.
Letting Go of Business Path
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Ashton: But okay, So you went to Gonzaga for business school. We didn't even
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: get into the switch that happened while you were there
Kate: Yeah. So yeah, I studied human resources and law through a business program. and kind of similar to Ashton's, I chose that because it seemed like the right thing to do. like, yeah, kind of the, "I should do this. This will lead to, like, a stable life, so therefore I'll do [00:16:00] it." When I was studying business, I was like, "This just doesn't feel authentic in any way," and so I was like, "Let me look into, like, nonprofits."
I did, nonprofit internships and was still just, like, couldn't find the enthusiasm for it compared to, I was pouring all of my energy effortlessly into my outdoor program
Ashton:
Perfectionism and Worth
---
Ashton: we've had so many conversations about this, but I know that both of us, like, we hold ourselves to a pretty high standard, and the perfectionism and the wanting to achieve and all of that. But when you were going through this period of, realizing that business might not be the thing you wanted to do,
do you feel like you were lying to yourself for a little bit because you just wanted to, like, stay on this path? Or was it an easy thing for you to let go of?
Kate: Oh, 100%, I was in denial for so long. I'm like, all of this outdoorsy or whatever stuff, like, this is just, pure joy, and it's not, feasible to, like, make a sustainable life out. I was telling myself, like, all the things that, someone who wanna dissuade you from living a [00:17:00] non-traditional life would say.
Like, I was that voice for myself.
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: my parents were... Like, anyone influence in my life was, being down on me for making choices.
Ashton: have you been like that your whole life?
Kate: Growing up, I feel like it was, I just had this, internal compass of, wanting to do right to, I would say, to a fault, and, like, perfectionism to a fault, and I think I've definitely, like, grown out of that in a really amazing way.
But it's still just, in my bones,
Ashton: where do you think that stems from? is it because of the family structure, Is it because you were, like, deemed, your worthiness was just always on, achievement?
Kate: Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like I, fall into the eldest daughter trope of feel a lot of responsibility, and like want to take on a lot of responsibility, and definitely fell into the other trope of like got a lot of academic validation, and sports validation, and was equating that to worth.
And so I was like, "Oh, I'm being told I'm doing a good job. Gotta keep [00:18:00] doing it,"
Ashton: Yeah.
absolutely
Kate: the good side was like, I just have a really hardworking dad, who was always a big role model for me of like, this guy works so hard, I, I want to do that too. Like, I admire that so much, I wanna embody that.
And my mom is such a caretaker, effortlessly, that I was like, "Okay, well, I'm definitely like care hard, love on everyone super hard." So it's just like
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: those role models is such a good thing, but I think I took things to a level of like, you have to do all these things perfectly,
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: even though no one was I don't know, expecting that of me.
Just high expectations, I guess
Ashton: you kind of referenced that you feel like that's changed a little bit now?
Kate: Hmm. Well, maybe not entirely. I think generally I've grown to like give myself more grace, especially like the season of life I'm in right now. I like have to give myself grace or I would catch on fire.
Ashton: Yep. We'll get, we'll get into that [00:19:00] season one,
Kate: yeah.
but that's a good-- that's a confronting question, Ashton.
Ashton: We can move on. We can move on.
Kate: I'm trying.
Ashton: It's okay. I understand. So you're in safe company 'cause I'm the same
Kate: I think part of growing up, and I guess I keep explaining things I'm realizing without context, but the reason I'm doing what I do now is was definitely being way too hard on myself growing up, and it made life harder.
And then as I got older, I unlearned a lot of those harsh
Ashton: things
Kate: I was telling myself, and it just made life better. And I think that's naturally part of being a teenager and being messy when you're in that age. But one of my secret missions is to teach that imperfection is okay, and like you can be a messy, silly human, and that's actually better. when things go wrong, that's actually great because you learn. all those
like cheesy, corny cliches, I've finally figured them out, and I'm like,
people, spread the news, people, you
know?
Ashton: that's this, podcast, literally. Like, the, the messiness of being a human[00:20:00]
pretty much.
Kate: But yeah,
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: I'm still ingrained deep in my bones, like I was saying, like a perfectionist, but in a more forgiving way and like,
Ashton: Like a self-acceptance type of way.
Kate: know,
Ashton: we go through the waves of it, of course. thank you for sharing all of that. I appreciate it. And again, like I said, in very safe company 'cause I f- I feel the exact same way. Exact same. so you kind of switched gears from business and let go of it, where did that lead you?
How'd you finish college, and then where'd you go after that?
Seasonal Life and New Zealand Move
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Kate: So I went through a few years of the seasonal cycle. post-college I was a raft guide, along, Glacier National Park, um, on the Middle Fork of the Flathead, and that was like a big, big rafting company. it was really fun, just like fun summer, rah-rah, whitewater.
and then when I moved to New Zealand with some of my best friends from college, met Ashton, whole thing, and that [00:21:00] was the time of like working in hospitality. I've been working in restaurants my whole life, so it's just like easy to fall back into that.
Ashton: it kind of was a group decision to go to New Zealand
Kate: yeah, it was this really connection of like how we came together as a group and then the decision-making. So when I was in college, I lived, also another parallel, I lived in Madrid also for a
Ashton: Oh, yes. Yes,
Kate: Yeah, which I forgot to mention,
also I say that the bug,
Ashton: The bug, for sure.
Kate: got me for sure.
and I made a really dear friend there, and when we came back, those-- that friend connected with, Nelly,
Basically, we like formed a friend group from like that abroad connection, and then one person was like, "Let's do this," and they were like, "Kate, let's go," and I was just like, "All right. Like, when am I gonna get the chance? Like, when is a friend gonna ask you to move to New Zealand with you and like have no other obligations?"
Ashton: Yeah. It's very rare to be on the same path as friends to be like, [00:22:00] "Let's go do this crazy thing."
Kate: And my brain was just like, all I wanna do is And so I was like, this is perfect.
Ashton: That's the place to do it
Kate: yeah, so I feel like every decision ever since I like learned what backcountry wilderness was, it's-- there's just been a part of me that's like, I'm gonna do anything I possibly can to like put myself in a situation where I'm out here
'cause it's just pure bliss.
Ashton: my God, it's addicting.
Kate: it's just where I'm like, feel like the most I guess,
Ashton: Oh, same.
Kate: perfect. It's just perfect.
Ashton: I'm still, uh, trying to get back to, like, that perfection of New Zealand with the amount of time just spent out in the wilderness, 'cause God, I haven't had it that much since, but,
Kate: So yeah, New Zealand.
Finding Outward Bound
---
Kate: Um, and then that's when, knew I was gonna head back for the summer, and there was like this shift of like I did commercial raft guiding for a couple years 'cause I did a couple like half seasons in this when I was in college. It was really fun, but also there was still that element of like the bro-y, rah-rah [00:23:00] outdoor, competitive elitism. there was, there was just tinges of that in the commercial world. just in general, the culture of
like wasn't... I was like, "I don't wanna do this forever." And so I remembered my old mentor from my outdoor program who worked for Outward Bound, I applied to the backpacking base
Ashton: Do you wanna talk about what Outward Bound is a little bit?
Kate: I, I would say a more like, name brand familiar version of it is called NOLS, if that's more familiar to people. But Outward Bound is basically outdoor education school that takes students on, um, backcountry wilderness expeditions, and part of it is technical skills, like you're teaching them, um, say you're going backpacking, teaching them backpacking skills.
I mostly do rafting skills, so you're teaching them not only camp craft, but like how to be a raft guide. So you like have them get to the point where they like are guiding the boat themselves. so there's a technical element, but it's mostly like social emotional learning and like leadership and courage and like the natural [00:24:00] metaphors of living out there and like going through that tough experience, going through that challenge, like a curated challenge what that does to your character.
Ashton: Yeah, it's really special
Kate: yeah, something special. Not to be confused with wilderness therapy. so it's not like anything connected to that. It's more about
Ashton: It's kind of like team building a little bit.
Kate: Yeah. Very wholesome. We're sitting in circles a lot talking about our feelings, which is just my shit.
That's all I wanna do. Um, like I
don't wanna get paid to do
Ashton: Me and you both.
Kate: yeah, so I knew like I was saying, like my mentor was just so incredible that I was like, "I wanna be around that." And then when I showed up there, I got hired on the Moab base, which mostly is rafting expeditions because they're like, "You have river miles, come over here."
And I was like, "Okay, I guess I'm back on the river."
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: And when I showed up, it was just like a bunch of, his name-- my mentor's name is Matt. There's a bunch of Matts. just like, "Hi, how are you? how are you feeling?" Like, and I'm like, "I'm home.
This is amazing."
Ashton: Yeah
[00:25:00]
Kate: so that was my first season
Ashton: that was 2024? 2025
Kate: Yes. Yes.
'Cause this summer I'm about to go into my third season at Outward Bound.
Ashton: Yep
Kate: it's definitely a bit of a suffer fest out there, like Moab in the desert, like heat of June and July is
Ashton: It's tough. Oh my God, it's tough
Kate: Yeah, but it was just like, that was my like first taste of like overnight rafting where you're like sleeping on the sand under the stars every night. the magic that can happen out there when like kids are like realizing they're, you know, more capable. Like all the cheesy things that are so cheesy but so good were
happening.
Ashton: What about that job what is the most fulfilling about it?
Kate: Oh gosh, what do I even... What is the most fulfilling?
when I think, about myself, it's empowering, and I feel like I'm just, like, learning so much.
Modeling Joy in Teaching
---
Kate: just technical, but, like, to facilitate and how to, like, I don't know, wrangle [00:26:00] people, like a
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: and, facilitate, meaningful...
Like, how do I-- Like, how can I get, pull out the messaging that I want of, you are capable, and, we can do these hard things, and this amazing? Like, look around you.
Like that, but without saying it explicitly. how can I, just model the joy that I get at this place and hope it, hope that people can
grasp onto that?
Ashton: that's a great answer. I love it
From Teaching Outdoors to the Classroom
---
Kate: yeah, this is like, I guess, how I got into where I am now as a teacher is I was working with, like, high school age, and they're just so funny. people, all these students I had were just hilarious and just had, the most, fresh-eyed, interesting takes on the world that I was just like, "I wanna be around people like this."
And, like, they're teaching me. I feel like was learning so much from my students and was so inspired and proud of them, and I'd only spent, like, a week or two with them that I was like, "How do I..." Like, this is devastating. Every time a course ends, I, don't wanna say goodbye to [00:27:00] these people. And so that was, when it was, like, start kind of stirring in the back of my mind of like, "How can I do this in a more long-term way?" yeah, so that's, what kind of led me to thinking about teaching, especially, like, my very last course of my first season. with, this very small high school, it's, like, their senior class, and, like, there was a high school history teacher who was a chaperone. And I don't know how we came to the conversation, but he's like, "Have you ever thought about teaching?
Like, you could still do this, but then you get the students, all year round And I was like, "Oh, wait a second." But, like, I'd never thought about educating, but I was, doing it.
Ashton: I mean, it takes one person, like literally one interaction for somebody to just make the light bulb go off in your brain. It takes one interaction for you to be like, "Oh my God, you just opened a part of my brain that wasn't even there."
Kate: Totally. I was like, "Duh, hello?"
Ashton: exactly.
Kate: This [00:28:00] is like within my s- my wheelhouse of like what naturally to me.
Ashton: Yeah. Yeah. So then, I guess that's caught up to present, this is your first year of teaching
you're t- been teaching seventh and eighth graders in Colorado. She's back in Colorado in Denver and also doing Outward Bound still in the summers.
And this past year was a bit crazy just in terms of learning. Yeah
Kate: was just like diving headfirst 'cause I was doing alternative programs, so I'm like taking night classes as I go, as I'm like learning how to teach for the first time, like in a classroom setting.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and yeah, just figuring it out as I go
Ashton: Mm-hmm
it's exciting though, I mean, when we were both in New Zealand, I don't know if we could have even imagined both kind of being where
Kate: No
Ashton: Like, we were so, I mean, I'm speaking for myself, but I think all of us there, like so lost in what,
Kate: 100%.
Ashton: what to do and [00:29:00] where life was gonna go.
So
Kate: Yeah.
I didn't realize that, my, like, little passion project things were turning in... it was all culminating into something, like, where I need to be. I just didn't... Obviously, hindsight, I wish, and I remember you saying this to you, like, I wish I could have just, pat her on the back and been like, "Girl, you're fine.
you're literally, it's happening,
Ashton: I know
Kate: literally on the way to, a product of all of this chaos. this is all meant for something."
Ashton: And it's so
sweet to be sitting here and be like, "Oh my God, look, look what's happened for both of us. It's so sweet." And maybe we'll listen back to this podcast episode two years from now and even be like, "Oh my God."
Kate: Girl, you did a
Ashton: Yeah, you don't even know what's gonna come, but okay, yeah.
Defining the Holding Pattern
---
Ashton: We can get more into that specific holding pattern before we dive into it, I would love for you to answer, in your own words, what does a holding pattern mean to you?
Or how is a holding pattern defined in your life?[00:30:00]
Kate: Ooh, I like that. when I-- like, when you explained this concept to me before, and then what I've gotten from listening to you, I understand a holding pattern as sort of like this transitional phase, with uncertainty looming, where, yeah, you're just not quite certain of what's gonna happen, and, like, the anxiety of that is overwhelming,
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: especially for s- I mean, as someone who likes life control and strives for the impossible perfection.
Ashton: And you, and you usually succeed with that. Like, I've watched you succeed with all of that, so yes.
Kate: that's... sweet. I like that.
Ashton: I think it's also interesting to hear we all... I mean, it's our own lived experience. Like, I, I can't define that for anybody else.
It's just kind of to see, like, how it's interpreted through different people's lenses and their own lives, I think, I find really interesting. and I think it also gives context to what you're about to talk about. so if you would set the [00:31:00] scene
before, let's say, you're, like, sitting in a shit ton of uncertainty, where are you in life? Like, what's going on?
Kate: Yeah.
Back in Colorado and Self Doubt
---
Kate: So this is kind of coming off this racetrack of seasonal life where it's like, go, go, go, no time to stop and like reflect on what's going on. So I w- it was like post, I had gone from like college, Glacier, New Zealand, Moab, and I almost, I was just like on a seasonal track having fun, but also like, "Wow, this is crazy.
What's happening? I don't know what's going on." and I almost moved to Asheville, to work, as like an outdoor educator for a school there. and I ended up being like, I need to slow down. I'm running out of money, first of all. And second of all, my soul is trailing behind my body and I need to catch up.
And so after my first Moab season at Outward Bound, I moved home for a bit to just serve and like save up and like settle and like try to figure out, [00:32:00] try to find some certainty. and so that was like the beginning of the holding, holding pattern in terms of like, I had decided I was kind of like going back to my perfectionist self of like, I need to correct myself and go on the traditional path.
And I was thinking about like trying to find a way to use my business degree and trying to pursue endeavors related to that and just like failing and failing
Ashton: it's so funny because we like have the same, we, I
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: the same brain because of you saying that. I think back to the, my like own holding pattern that was the coming off of Spain and going back to my par- going back to my parents. It's humbling that I also... The same thing was happening in my brain.
It was like, it felt like the only right thing to do was like to go back to that business degree or like cave into the nine to five I have to, this is the only, only right path. And then when I was on the untraditional path, I didn't think for a second, like I didn't [00:33:00] second-guess it, but then the second you're back in the environment where all that programming was put in the first place, it's like your brain goes right back there.
Kate: it was crazy 'cause yeah, like when I was in Glacier, I was surrounded by people living these, like, interesting lives. I wasn't judging myself for, like, not going directly into that kind of workforce after college. I was like,
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: this." And then even though we were feeling, like, confused and lost in some ways in New Zealand, we were still, like, in it together, and there
Ashton: Yep
Kate: the camaraderie of that.
Ashton: And we were having, if we like go back to that heartbeat analogy, like we were having a lot of tens too so it was like ride the tens and it keeps you going, right?
Kate: And yeah, dipping into the low numbers as well. I, like, I
really like that analogy,
Ashton: Right. I know, it's so good.
prior to this period, had you dealt with a lot of uncertainty in your life?
Kate: That is a good question. I feel like back to how my brain works in that perfectionist way, I have tried to manufacture certainty [00:34:00] as much as I possibly can, which has gotten me into some inner tur-turmoil, you could say, of just like being too hard on myself.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
So you feel like you kind of un- avoided uncertainty
Kate: avoidant because I would create control and structure by just, achieving as much as I could, caring on others as much as I could, and, that gave me control, thus,
Ashton: how do you feel like you created certainty? Was it, you were, like, foregoing your own needs and desires and just, fitting and shaping into, like, other people's lives what did that look like?
Kate: I think it's in terms of like working hard at whatever I was doing. So like whatever I would do, I would just go balls to the wall with it and like try to do the best version of it and get the accolades, not even necessarily like, more for sense of achievement versus doing things for the actual benefit of them, and that's vague.
But now that I'm in teacher brain mode, I like think back to The way I did [00:35:00] school is I memorize things and get good grades versus something to learn it and
stopping and like, "Am I actually digesting this
Ashton: Right
Kate: getting something out of this and reflecting on it?"
Versus like, "I'm doing it just to get it done." And so
Ashton: Interesting
Kate: college, like I'm like, "Oh, I can like get good grades and like do all the things I need to like be a high-functioning college student. I can have three other jobs going on and like a social life and go adventure," and like kinda just filling up my time. Anyone close to my life will always be like, "You can just chill out, you don't need to do..." But it's just like I'm hardwired to like overexert myself,
Ashton: Yeah.
Which is funny that you, I think, were able to even go off onto the untraditional path and like go into the outdoors. When you are wired that way, it's, it's interesting that you've have been able to kind of take that path. Do you know why?
Kate: point.
Ashton: allowed you to do that?
Kate: Yeah, 'cause it does feel like counterintuitive to that type of [00:36:00] personality to have this a nomadic lifestyle and I feel like there's just like a lot of duality and I am-- can be this high-strung perfectionist person, but I can also at the same time be like a laid back, I just wanna be outside and adventure and be here.
Like,
Ashton: Totally.
Kate: at the same time,
and I still don't really know how it works, but it's true.
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: and so like my want to, have these authentic, meaningful experiences outside was overriding my voice that was like, "Do the what you should do."
And I'm so glad
Ashton: Do you argue that that is more of your authentic self rather than like these pressures that society and other people make you feel like that inner voice?
Kate: is so true and
Ashton: that's what it sounds like.
Kate: It is,
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: like what's cool I'm so proud of myself that I have let that authentic self reign over my [00:37:00] like high-strung self because I wasn't like leaning into that version of myself much enough to like stop myself from doing all these things that I wanted to do, and then it's led me to where I wanna be.
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: zoom out and articulate it like this zoomed out, but it's kinda
Ashton: No, you, uh, you are doing a great job.
Kate: in your
Ashton: Ab- absolutely. Yeah. We can go back to, so you're back at your parents' house after having this, um, outward bound, amazing, fulfilling job experience,
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: and you're serving. And so is this where we kind of really enter the holding pattern?
Kate: I would say that's where we are because like we were mentioning, like now that I'm back where I grew up and had that mindset and hadn't had all these cool experiences yet that opened me up to what I want to do with my life, I was like, okay, so use my business degree. and I kind of had just like shut out all the, like the little whispers of education and [00:38:00] like how to make that happen. it just wasn't working out, and I was just being so hard on myself and just because I, like wasn't actively like exploring, like adventuring or had already set up a nine-to-five job, cause I hadn't done either of those two alternatives, I was just being so hard on myself
Ashton: when you say hard on yourself, like, what does that look like for you? what is happening in your brain?
Kate: I would say it's mostly internal, self-talk,
because so grateful to have, like, such close friends and family that, I'm not afraid to, like, tell them my inner world. And so it's just, the close people, close people in my life, lucky for them, they just get to hear that I'm not doing And, like, that greater need for affirmation of like, "Girl, stop equating your worth to what you're doing." the constant reminder I'll, think forever need. but yeah, just being hard on myself and, what really was happening is, I was resisting so [00:39:00] hard against, what I wanted to actually do, and it was-- I was, like, covering it up again of, wanting to find a way to make this seasonal life, sustainable in a way that worked for me.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the answer was there, but I was just like, " Let me just make sure that I can
Ashton: what do you think scared you the most about allowing yourself to maybe go the education route? what was stopping you necessarily? was it fear of not being successful?
Kate: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it was a combination of a part of it felt like too good to be true. Like, what do you mean you can have this amount of time with students and get to know them, and I get to talk about books all day, especially if I'm an English teacher. are
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: and like be earnest and model ear- being earnest,
Ashton: Aw.
Kate: big, big, big
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: like time of you're so vulnerable and self-conscious, and you used to be this expressive kid and now you're coming to your shell, and I'm like, no. Like, you
Ashton: [00:40:00] I love
Kate: weird self.
that was that character or that person was happening on my outbound courses and now, You know, you can do that full-time. And When I met my friend, like my first out of college seasonal job, she was a teacher raft guide. And I remember her saying that and thinking to myself, that is like too good to be true.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: can still be a raft guide, which is blissful,
and still have this sense of stability
Ashton: It's so funny as humans that sometimes the answer is literally right in front of you, and we just want to make it so hard.
Kate: I know. Love doing that
to myself.
Ashton: mean, it's a common thing, I think, for a lot of people of you can make one change or one decision or one step or let go of one thing, but we just wanna like hang on to comfort or we wanna hang on- onto like the known things instead of taking that one simple change You know, it's just funny. But it's cool to, it's cool to be able to look back and be like, [00:41:00] "Okay,
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: here we go. This is where it changed."
Kate: And I think another element was like the classic imposter syndrome
Definitely like 'cause I was still new to outdoor ed, each year I felt more competent. But
there was that negative talk of like, "Are you equipped for this? Like, you haven't had enough experience with behavior management." All these like little things. And then when I was like, "Wait, I could be an English teacher," then came in the imposter syndrome of like, "You didn't even study English.
You haven't taken an English class since high school.
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: teach people?" Or like, "You got, you gotta read more books, girl."
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: And this is all self-constructed. again, I'm lucky that no one in my life is saying these things.
it's
just me being
Ashton: it sounds like this holding pattern is really characterized by like self-sabotage a little bit. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: I mean, it makes sense from the high achieving perfectionism.
Kate: so ironic too, 'cause you're that high-achieving person, you're technically like setting yourself up 'cause you're working really hard and doing all the things, but [00:42:00] then you're tearing yourself right back down with the top.
Ashton: Absolutely.
Kate: where everyone else is
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: just chill out.
Ashton: Yes, absolutely.
Kate: like, so I could have just been chill this whole time and it would've been the same? All right.
Ashton: I relate so, so much to that.
Support Systems and Coping Tools
---
Ashton: I feel like for me, the biggest help has just been being in therapy. I would be such a different human if I hadn't gone into therapy, truly, 'cause the self, the mean, mean self-talk and self-doubt can be debilitating. And for me,having therapy and having somebody who's there of like, " your inner world does not have to be this way.
you do not have to live this way, and you can be nice to yourself, and actually you'll still be successful and achieve, and you'll still get all these things with being nice to yourself. You don't have to be mean." So
Kate: crazy
Ashton: well go, okay, so while you're in this holding pattern, you're being really hard on yourself, kind of self-sabotaging, uh, not giving yourself a break.
When you're in a mindset like that, what are the things that [00:43:00] you're doing at this time period that might not be like moving you forward or progressing your life, but just helping you like get through the day
Kate: That's a good question too. I keep saying that to all your questions 'cause
Ashton: Thank you. Thank you.
Kate: questions.
Ashton: The characteristic of our backpacking trips, right?
Kate: I think again, a common thread of my life which is so beautiful is that my support systems are so strong.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I can't comprehend how lucky I am at times, but like people in my life who know me really well are really good at giving me reality checks and reminding me I am.
'Cause when I get into that, those pits of negativity where I'm just being so unnecessarily unkind to myself, there's the close people in my life who are like, "No, actually, that's not true and this is who you are."
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: probably the best example of that is my little sister
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: the best person in the world, and she has always been my hype girl.
And it's crazy 'cause I'm an older [00:44:00] sister, but I look up to her. she's always just framed me in a way where I just seem awesome.
just always proud of me and always validating my life,
Ashton: I wish everybody could have a little sister.
Kate: I don't even wanna a life without it, and this is just like mean to even say, like, if you don't have a little sister 'cause I'm like this is the solution to life is
Ashton: I know.
Kate: sis. But yeah,
Ashton: Go find a suit, little sister.
Kate: but you can have this in a friend.
So it's
Ashton: Totally, you can
Kate: reminding me who I am and like literally sometimes just being like, "You are so wrong in this negative self-talk. this is who you are, and like you are not defined by like this stage. you are the culmination of your whole life and self." that time specifically was a life raft
And for my parents too, and
Ashton: something to call out and highlight about that is maybe not everybody has a little sister as we both are very lucky to have, but or, or even a good friend. But I think [00:45:00] just when you are in these really low periods or of depression, of anxiety, of self-sabotage, of whatever it is, when you're in a place in life that you don't wanna be in, it can be so hard to like reach out to people and show that side of yourself and show the vulnerability that comes with being in a place that you don't want to be in.
But
Kate: Yeah
Ashton: I wanna point out how beneficial it is to reach out to other people and to lean on other people. it's not somebody in your life, maybe it is a therapist, but, maybe if you don't have friendships like that, maybe you can be the first person to take the step of Hey, I'm not doing well right now," and just like showing a more vulnerable side and then that can also influence the people around you to kind of do the same for you and deepen connections.
'Cause at the end of the day, like you don't have to go through any of this alone and honestly shouldn't, because it's harder. It's harder to go through it alone. But I, think that we for some reason think it's easier [00:46:00] in our little small human brains sometimes. So
Kate: silly
Ashton: I know, yeah. So I, I love that you mentioned that.
Kate: Yeah. I wouldn't have received this validation without like being super candid about how I was doing. So I like,
Ashton: Right
Kate: "I'm not my best self. I'm not proud of where I am right now." I wouldn't have been able to get that support if I hadn't have been like just super frank
when you put yourself back in, when you're in this time period that like nothing's feeling good. Is there anything else that was feeling good?
running has been, this nice routine. anywhere I've been in a s- like all my seasonal phases, I've been, like, training for a race and, had the control of, that routine so that no matter where I am, I, like, have, like, this mini goal
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Kate: towards, and then that kind of fulfills, again, my perfectionist self.
Like, there's my little controlling thing, and then I can relax in other
Ashton: Yeah, that's a good, that's a good one
Kate: If I look at it in a healthy way and have a [00:47:00] good mindset about it, it's, something empowering and something of, I am putting in the work, and there will be the results of my hard work,
Ashton: Yes.
Kate: tangibly, like,
Ashton: Yep.
Kate: time.
Ashton: I love that. That's a great one
Kate: And I think another thing is having those self-talks, about mindset and gratitude. something I, always try and remind myself when I'm in my imposter syndrome or I'm being hard on myself is, like, how stoked little kid Kate would be about myself.
Ashton: Yeah, I love that
Kate: anything that I've done or, like, where I am now, think of like, could she have even have fathomed places I've gone or the people I've met? And like Little Kid Kate in her core was just like this fearless, shameless kid who wasn't afraid to be a weirdo wasn't shamed for that. And I'm like constantly like, how can I make her proud?
Ashton: I love that
Kate: and then when I'm being hard on myself, I'm like, "She's stoked about [00:48:00] you. Like, why are you being hard on yourself? you've already, like, it further, in your mindset than you ever thought you could." And so
Ashton: Well, something about, you know, the inner child, as cliche as I, I feel like that is getting thrown around a lot in the zeitgeist. But, honoring that part of you, the younger part of you, and then I also have been thinking a lot about, like, honoring the older version of you as well.
And,
Kate: like
Ashton: if you have both of those, instead of the angel and the devil, have your younger, have your five-year-old self and then have your 80-year-old self on both shoulders. don't reference yourself to anybody else. Reference yourself to the past and the future version of you, and I think that can be pretty grounding what is 80-year-old Ashton and Kate gonna be stoked about that we, that we did?
And then also, what is, like, eight-year-old Kate gonna be s- also stoked about? So 80-year-old Kate and 80-year-old Ashton are probably gonna still be happy even though we've gone through these ups and downs.
[00:49:00] You know? They make you who you are.
Kate: I love the other side of it, of thinking of your older self too.
Ashton: yeah, both. It gives, it's good perspective, right?
Kate: We need it.
Ashton: We do.
Breaking Through and Looking Ahead
---
Ashton: Well, you ma- obviously made it out of that holding period. How long did that last for, for you?
Kate: I think
I started substitute teaching, and I was like build-- I started building towards education track like a couple months in.
Ashton: Okay
Kate: So I would say it lasted probably a couple months until I finally like resisted the like, I need to do the business thing, and like leaned into, you know what?
I'm gonna be a teacher, and I'm gonna go for it. And then I had that goal of all the steps to get there, and that was more grounding. And then same thing with like time with running. Like when I have something to work towards,
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: feel that sense of control and purpose, and that really was grounding.
And that January, I got, to go rafting on the Grand Canyon for the first time. And so I have-- I was [00:50:00] anticipating that, always having an adventure to anticipate just, obviously it gets you so excited. and then having that experience just filled my cup overflow.
It was overflowing. I
was like,
Ashton: it's true. It is true. Having an adventure or trip or something, oh my God, good for the mental health.
Kate: planning.
Ashton: Yes.
Kate: advocate for
Ashton: I love that.
Kate: in the world.
Ashton: I haven't heard it phrased that way. Positive planning.
Kate: I love it.
Ashton: Oh, yeah
Kate: having that adventure to look forward to and, like, knowing your cup is gonna be filled in that way,
Oh, I love that. Positive planning.
Ashton: now that we've kind of talked about, like, when you were in it, what about this specific holding pattern, what about it, changed or impacted your, thought processes or how you view these times now going forward?
Kate: Yeah, I think just I'm continuing to build experiences and continuing to through transitions and get through [00:51:00] things that are hard and come out the other side of it, I'm like myself just through experience of that you think you will always be struggling with or you will always feel imposter syndrome about, that will pass. now I've like, I have evidence of it, and before I think I didn't have enough evidence to believe it
Ashton: mm-mm.
Kate: know, like I had all these transitional phases and like don't know what's gonna happen, freaking out, and now I have enough evidence of things working out
Ashton: Yeah.
Kate: more trust,
Ashton: Yep.
I love that.
Kate: and I still have the like apprehension, and worry of things going wrong and like There's still plenty of that.
Ashton: Do you feel like you avoid it as much as you used to?
Kate: avoid change and transition
Ashton: The uncertainty
Kate: I think, no, I think now that like my like day-to-day, there's so much more like natural chaos and overstimulation, and I've adapted to handling that.
I think I'm kind of have this like bring it on mentality
Ashton: Yeah, it's exposure therapy.
Kate: and I really [00:52:00] hope I hold on to this mindset as I continue as a teacher of like, I want to be amused.
Like I want to find things funny annoying.
Ashton: Oh, I love that
Kate: things are like a lot, I wanna be able to be like, "This is crazy how
Ashton: Yeah
Kate: going on," versus like I'm bogged down by this amount of things.
Ashton: that little shift can like I don't know, it can change your whole world, and it's
Kate: Yeah.
Ashton: all within your brain. It's like switch from annoying to amused and then you'll have a completely different day.
Kate: Yeah
And of course, it's not always like that. Like, today was not a good example of me being amused. Today was, my first three blocks of literacy, they were just... They were... No one was on today, and I was just... And I came to my last class of my seventh graders, and I was like, "Y'all, am not gonna have my normal patience.
Like, I am just gonna be real. I didn't, I never like yelling, but, like, I've... My patience is run thinner. So can you please my faith in [00:53:00] humanity? And y'all have done it for me before. You know I
Ashton: I love that
Kate: that you bring it together for me." And they were like, "All right. We are gonna make Kate's day better."
And then at the end, I was like, like, I'm so proud of you. Thank you so much for doing a good job today.
Like, I really needed that." And one of them was like, "Are you happy again?" I was like, "Yeah."
Ashton: Oh my God. But look, this is kind of tying back into what we were just talking about of like saying, just being so honest about like where you are
Kate: candid.
Ashton: look how receptive people are to that, to honesty. Like that's such a good example of it.
Kate: Yeah, that's true.
Ashton: last kind of question to wrap all of this up is what would you like to celebrate about these periods?
I would like to celebrate, my growth and my self-assurance in general, which is something that there's been just this huge amount of growth in since I was my, confused, anxious teenager to now. I'm, like, astounded by her [00:54:00] self-worth view and just because I'm not good at something yet or don't know doesn't mean-- doesn't equate to my worth. Like, I think I used to equate all that to my worth, and now I'm more like, "Yeah, I don't know 'cause I haven't done it yet or I don't have experience," instead of like, "I don't know, so I
Kate: am therefore less than.
And again, this is something that is an ongoing thing. This is-- of this is like I am at the finish line of any of th-this,
Ashton: Of course.
and hopefully that will
stick the next one you go through, 'cause again, they're inevitable. There will be more. is there any advice you would wanna give to that, you know, younger Kate that we were referencing, after going through kind of these ups and downs you've been through the last couple years?
Kate: I would just say, like, there's so much to see and You, you're going to meet some just amazing people who you're going to be inspired by,
Ashton:
Kate: I think I would say something with the sentiment of hope of, and then, like, [00:55:00] the classic of like, "Girl, lighten up, nicer to yourself,"
Ashton: Well, I appreciate you so much for coming and doing this, and I love, love every conversation we have. We can kind of go into the depths of it, which I appreciate so much.
Kate: for your editing
Ashton: Oh my gosh,
Kate: our
Ashton: no.
Kate: tangential conversations we
always have
Ashton: thank you for sharing all of your, personal stories and, thank you for coming on,
Kate: Yay. Thank you for all your good questions.
Ashton: anytime, girl.
Kate: asked, I was like, "That's a good question."
Ashton: My hype woman. You can just sit next to me while I'm doing this all the time and just keep it going.