Move a Muscle, Change a Thought

Show Notes

In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the powerful connection between movement and mental health. What begins as a conversation about running quickly expands into a deeper look at how physical activity, sleep, hydration, and nutrition shape emotional well-being. Drawing from both clinical experience and insights from Harvard metabolic health advocate Dr. Chris Palmer, they challenge the idea that mental health exists only in the mind—introducing a more integrated view of brain and body. From winter stagnation and “freeze mode” to the cultural pressure to overwork and under-rest, Christopher and Kenyon unpack how disconnection from the body can quietly fuel anxiety, depression, and a loss of motivation. The conversation also explores how neglecting our basic needs can erode confidence, strain relationships, and limit our ability to feel present in our own lives. Rather than offering extreme solutions, Christopher and Kenyon return to something more fundamental: the small, consistent choices that help regulate the nervous system and restore a sense of balance. At its core, this episode is a reminder that we are not machines built for constant output. We are human beings who require movement, rest, and connection to function. Because sometimes the path out of a mental spiral isn’t more thinking. Sometimes it’s as simple, and as difficult, as getting up and moving.

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_01: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_00: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

SPEAKER_01: Something you keep
sticking with me.

You said that you texted me.

You said you went for a 6.5 mile
run the other day.

SPEAKER_00: I did.

Sunday.

SPEAKER_01: You felt a lot
better.

SPEAKER_00: I felt a lot better.

Uh physically, about halfway
through, I started to hit that

that wall.

I was like, oh, it's been a
while.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: But mentally, it was
it just felt so good to get back

out.

I was never a runner.

I played soccer my whole life,
still play.

And so I guess running just like
secondary to that.

But you know, I started running
a few years ago after we moved

up to Connecticut from New York.

And I can't tell you how like
mentally clarifying it is.

Yeah.

And and you, I mean, you have
this experience.

You you run and exercise and are
really active as well, but it's

really important to be
physically active.

I think it helps our mental
health so much and stabilizes

us.

I took up trail running because
it was just so much more like

out in the environment and and
just kind of raw.

And I like that.

So it was just easier on my old
knees, which helps and old shins

and ankles and everything else.

SPEAKER_01: It makes the
movement fun.

It makes it into like an
exhilarating experience.

Yeah.

Just like being on a treadmill.

SPEAKER_00: No, no.

Which is good if it's like went.

So this winter was awful.

And I think this is like what
you were what I was telling you

the other day was that I went
for the last two, two and a half

months without being able to run
outside, really, because it's

been in the single digits, if
not below zero, right?

Windy.

And we've had two feet of snow
here in Connecticut and northern

Connecticut for like since
November.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Like we've not seen
grass until yesterday.

No.

And it was amazing.

And I'm just like, what is that?

Under there.

So it's been really hard to get
out and do things because it's

been so cold.

Even in the snow, you can't go
out and play because it was like

miserable and cold.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

The lesson I learned a long time
ago, decades ago, was if I'm not

moving, if I'm not exercising,
even in the dead of winter, if I

have to just go into the
basement and run on a treadmill,

if I'm not moving, my mental
health just takes a giant shit

on my life.

SPEAKER_00: It does.

SPEAKER_01: It just it kind of
stagnates.

I get anxiety, I get anxious,
even more anxious than I already

am.

I get depressed.

Right.

And then I notice that when I'm
not moving, my eating goes to

goes down the toilet.

I start stop caring about what
I'm eating.

SPEAKER_00: Okay.

SPEAKER_01: I need to have like
pretty regulated eating, and I'm

also a vegetarian.

So but I've found that if I'm
not exercising, I just stop kind

of caring.

And then if I'm not it, I don't
know, it's it like my my

confidence goes down.

It really kind of leads to a
sort of paralysis.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

I'm thinking all of a sudden
about, you know, when we go over

the when we talked to Kat last
time, she mentioned she referred

to the fight, flight, freezer,
fawn as the four Fs.

Right.

And I I caught it when I was
listening to her speak.

But I'm just thinking about this
this concept now.

If we're not moving, we're kind
of we're already putting

ourselves into, you know, freeze
and and just kind of like not

being able to move, not being
able to like get out anywhere.

And I think when we sit
stagnant, it gives our our brain

time to kind of spiral and
fixate on things.

And we start to just kind of
like fall into a little bit of a

hole.

Or or this kind of like frozen
state.

We're not being, we're not
living life, we're not engaged,

we're not grounding ourselves in
when we're when we're doing

that.

SPEAKER_01: We're not
connecting.

And you know, things go by the
wayside, I think.

Things are sacrificed, there are
casualties when we aren't in

motion, when we aren't fit.

I know a lot of clients tell me,
you know, well, I don't, you

know, they they don't want to
have intimacy with their

partner, they don't want to have
sex because they don't feel good

about you know the fact that
they haven't exercised and

they're not eating well.

That's you know, one example
that's actually pretty

meaningful because it's a it's a
block, it's an obstacle um when

in terms of connection with
other people, the relationship

we have with ourselves,
self-image.

How can I feel great about for
me?

How can I feel great about
myself if I'm not eating well,

if I'm not going out?

I love running, especially as we
age.

I think we do get a message from
society that, like, as you age,

well, just kind of let yourself
go.

Yeah, it's such a fallacy.

As we age, as I age, I need to
do more.

SPEAKER_00: So you mean to keep
to keep up?

I need to feel better.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

Well, you and I were talking
about that earlier, like the

need to keep up as we get older
and the fire hose thing.

But also just to like ensure
that ensure a senior product,

and ensure that I am continuing
to to stay in the game, so to

speak.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: To remain active, to
remain engaged.

I have two small children.

I have a seven-year-old and a
four-year-old.

I need to I need to be able to
move.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: I need to be able to
run after them.

I need to be able to let them
climb all the way.

SPEAKER_00: Or in just to play
and interact.

Yeah.

I had a colleague a long time
ago.

He was he was much older when he
had his child, and he had told

me, he goes, It's so much harder
being older and having having

kids.

And and we see parents now are
older and older as they they

have or people are older at
before they have children.

But it is, I think about that,
like trying to keep up and do

like now that my kids are nine,
almost ten, and and twelve,

trying to keep up with those
levels of activities and like

the intensity being in my
mid-40s, like it's it's hard.

Like it's it's it's draining.

I'm sore.

I get up the next day.

I like it's hard to walk down
the stairs.

Right.

And I'm feeling like, why, why
is this?

And then they jump up and
they're like, Yeah, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00: No, I am not fine.

But but the more I'm active, the
more I run, the more I take care

of myself, the more I hydrate,
just simply drinking water,

which I forget to do.

SPEAKER_01: Let's can we can we
shout out water for a second?

Absolutely.

Well, I never want to drink
water because it's so in my

mind, it's so boring.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I'm
never thirsty.

When I have my big old water
bottle, it's like the last thing

I want to do is drink from it.

And yet I tried that experiment,
the challenge where you try to

drink the actual amount that
we're supposed to drink today,

which is what eight.

SPEAKER_00: Eight cups.

Yeah, it's eight cups of water a
day, right?

32 ounces.

SPEAKER_01: And I tried it the
better.

After I kind of got used to
peeing all the time.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Which should level out.

That led out.

If you hydrate properly, your
body will start to level out and

you won't have to pee all the
time.

Yeah, it kind of but also if
you're peeing all the time, it's

good.

You're getting rid of all the
other crap that's good.

SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of a
purge, right?

A cleanse.

But what I found was way less of
those aches and pains that you

just described.

It's fascinating, isn't it?

Yeah.

I can get up easier.

Yeah.

Like on the ground.

SPEAKER_00: Just from water.

SPEAKER_01: Just from water.

SPEAKER_00: Just from drinking
water.

SPEAKER_01: Which makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: Our bodies are it's
almost like medical

professionals have been telling
us this forever.

Like just hydrate, stay
hydrated.

SPEAKER_01: But speaking of
medical professionals, I love

you know what Chris Palmer at
Harvard has done, has sort of

like put out there into the
world of hey, mental health is

metabolic health.

Why are we only treating mental
disorders with meds instead of

looking at the bigger picture
and saying, like, hey, how much

you exercise, how you eat, is
going to affect our mental

health.

It's going to affect our brains.

But I mean, our brains take up
20% of our energy reserves.

I mean, that's a really high
high-powered organ.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't I treat
my brain health the way I would

treat my heart health or my
liver health?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

You wouldn't be, you wouldn't be
running your your computer off

of like a couple double-A
batteries.

No.

And that's, you know, I just,
I'm thinking of that, like just

severely underpowered.

I really want to use car
analogies, but I don't, it just

falls flat sometimes.

So I'll just go for the car net.

You know, it well, it's just the
the underpowered thing.

You'd put a tiny little like
four-cylinder motor in a or

really bad gas into a Ferrari.

And you wouldn't do that.

You wouldn't put crappy, like
watered-down gas in a Ferrari.

Right.

You want to make sure it's it's
premium everything.

Premium gas.

You want to make sure
everything's clean and running.

You're not dumping a ton of
alcohol or drugs into it.

Right.

Or not eating.

Or or just eating a bunch of
like chips and bad food.

So you you're the fuel.

We our brain needs the fuel.

Right.

And that's going to help
regulate mentality.

So tell me more about like this
idea of metabolic metabolic

health and mental health, the
connection between.

SPEAKER_01: I discovered Dr.

Palmer, Chris Palmer, on I think
the Mel Robbins podcast.

He was talking about this
breakthrough he'd had years ago

where he had a client with
schizoaffective disorder, a lot

of the same symptoms that we see
with schizophrenia.

He was paranoid.

He was delusional.

He was hallucinating.

He was just in a in a state of
high anxiety and paranoia.

Most of the time was really
cramping his style.

He felt like he couldn't even
leave the house.

Plus, these medications, he'd
been on 17 different

medications.

They had caused him to gain over
100 pounds.

Yeah.

And finally, he just got to a
point where after eight years of

treatment with Dr.

Palmer, he said, You know what?

Forget, forget the
schizoaffective disorder.

I just want to lose weight and
try to find a girlfriend.

And so he said, Okay.

So we put him on a keto diet.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And what he found
was remarkable as this client,

this patient lost weight and was
eating better, his uh symptoms,

his mental health symptoms
associated with his mental

health diagnosis vanished.

SPEAKER_00: Wow.

SPEAKER_01: And he thought, oh,
well, maybe this is an anomaly.

So then he started treating
other people who had similar

diagnoses and were living with,
most importantly, extremely

diminished lives.

Right.

You know, like living with
anxiety and depression.

SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the
quality of life was just so

awful.

SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them
were overweight.

Yeah.

Or just not eating well or never
moved.

There's there are a lot of
people who look great on the

outside, but they just don't
have any sort of exercise

regimen.

And on the inside, their bodies
and emotionally, their emotional

lives can just be in tatters.

So what he realized was wow,
this is not an anomaly.

There is absolutely a connection
here between overall health and

you know, exercise is a big part
of it.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Eating well is a big
part of it.

Getting enough sleep is a big
part of it.

But how healthy are our brains?

And a healthy brain is less
likely to have the mental health

diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00: Of course.

Well, you think about resilience
in that way.

And what do we need?

When we've talked about
resilience, it's been this

force, I always think of it as
this force field around us.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Kind of in this
nerdy Star Trek kind of way.

You know, we have we're getting
kind of all this stuff blasted

at us all day.

Right.

We were talking like we you
mentioned the fire hose before,

and I was talking with a friend
yesterday about this idea of

like how much is just like just
blasted at us.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: We're trying to
block all of that.

And if we're typically in and I
think we've talked about this

before on other other podcasts,
how if we're picking away at the

inside of that force field, it's
not just what we deal with

coming from the outside, it's
what we deal with with what we

project out and how we feel.

Totally.

And if the insides don't match
the outsides, that starts to

wear down that resilience force
field from the inside too.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of
like the ozone layer.

Right.

So you have all this radiation
from the outside affecting it,

and then you have all this like
pollution from the inside.

And the more toxic stuff we have
on the inside now, that can be

shame and depression and anxiety
and poor eating habits, poor

sleep.

I love seeing how much focus
being put on sleep lately, you

know, and it's always been
important.

Same with hydration.

Everybody's like, drink water
and go to sleep.

Drink water, don't look at your
screens at least half an hour

before bed.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's
all of these things.

So sleep is critical for brain
health.

And I think that this is spot
on.

And we in over 25 years, I I can
just say anecdotally, like this

is what I've seen too.

The more balanced our lives are
in every domain, the just the

better we feel.

The less time we spend, maybe.

It's not that it's going to
totally resolve depression or

anxiety or schizoaffective
disorder or some organic thing

that might be going on, but we
can certainly tip the scale in

our favor.

So maybe we're not anxious as
long, or maybe it's not intense,

or maybe the depressive states
aren't as deep or as long.

If we could lessen the impact
that those things have on us

over time, that's kind of a win.

I feel that's kind of what we're
looking for.

Because there we're going to
feel bad about things, we're

going to feel anxious about
things.

So let's look at how we can
actually just lessen that

impact.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

And the trouble, because when
you when I hear you say it, it

makes so much sense.

It sounds so obvious almost.

It's like, duh.

And the trouble I grapple with,
and a lot of people I know

grapple with, is we get this
message from society that we

shouldn't.

Like, oh, you know, if you're
really reading responsible,

you're not going to sleep a full
eight hours.

You should be up, you know, you
should be the fire hose analogy.

Burn the candle at both ends.

Responsibilities, things to
juggle.

Right.

You don't have time to cook a
really nutritious meal because,

you know, for yourself, you
don't have time to sleep.

You don't have time to exercise.

SPEAKER_00: But you should.

It's the bad word again.

You should you should be
thriving, right?

Remember in COVID, everybody was
like, dude, if you're not

thriving, you're just you're
wasting away.

You're you're it's like
everybody's just trying to

survive, dude.

SPEAKER_01: The toxic thrive
terrorist.

SPEAKER_00: But but I think
about that, it's like here's

where we're we're shown the
ideal, yeah, but then it's well,

you need to, you know, stay up,
crush all this stuff, work, take

care of the kids, cook the
dinner, do everything you're

supposed to do, exercise, fit it
all in.

Yeah, make sure you show up 100%
for everything, and then by the

way, get up at 4 30 every
morning or 5 a.m.

every morning and start the
whole thing again.

You should only get three to
five hours of sleep.

Like these people, I'm like, who
are you?

SPEAKER_01: I remember when I
was in many lives ago, I was

working at Forbes magazine
producing videos and things like

that, media.

And we interviewed, he was then
the CEO of Samsung.

His name was Peter Weedfald.

And his whole he was a trip.

I really liked him.

His whole thing was I only need
four hours of sleep a night.

And he had this sort of like
hyper efficiency that was his

thing.

But he also made time to like
play piano and things like that,

which ingratiated him to me.

But I remember thinking, like,
wow, yeah, that's the message,

right?

Yeah, sleep four hours a night,
be hyper, hyper efficient and

effective and productive.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, think about
how much you can produce in 20

other hours of the day.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and guess
what?

If I have four hours of sleep, I
ain't producing shit.

Yeah.

Or whatever I am producing looks
like shit.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

That's the thing.

You might be able to do it for a
little while, and then you're

just burning through cortisol
and adrenaline.

But tell me about cortisol.

Cortisol, again, is the stress
hormone that we that we have.

And that's the one that causes
heart disease, it causes hair

loss, it causes weight gain, all
that like around the middle only

weight, that's cortisol.

SPEAKER_01: And cortisol levels
kick up when we don't get enough

sleep.

SPEAKER_00: We don't get enough
sleep, we're stressed out, when

we don't have enough connection
with other human beings.

So remember, when we connect
with other human beings, we have

oxytocin.

Just sitting in a room, it can
be a stranger.

SPEAKER_01: Oxytocin's a love
hormone.

SPEAKER_00: Oxytocin's a love
hormone.

It's that connection hormone.

Just sitting, say you go to a
coffee shop and you just sit

near another human being, just
interacting with somebody at the

counter, you get oxytocin.

So, and then there's levels of
it, right?

Like you think about, and we've
talked about this before

pregnant mothers, the baby's
getting oxytocin and like

flooded with it.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: But that cuts down,
that's the counter to cortisol.

And so we want more connection,
we want more, more of that to

counter the cortisol.

But cortisol, the less sleep we
get, yeah, the more crappy food

we eat.

Right.

Of course, now on social media
we see everybody like, oh,

here's the cortisol diet.

Here's the this is how you get
like how about just eating a

balanced diet, yeah, not eating
a bunch of garbage, right,

hydrating, and getting tons of
sleep.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: No screens half an
hour before bed.

Right.

I'm I'm just gonna double down
on it today.

It's good.

No, because I I tried this the
other day.

I went to go get in bed, and
we've talked about I I've I've

like I beat this drum all the
time, which is like no screens,

no screens.

And then I get in bed and I was
like, gonna I was gonna put my

headphones on and just listen to
music.

It's like, no, I'm going to put
my headphones away.

I'm just gonna get into bed.

I passed out in probably 30
seconds, yeah, and I slept so

well.

And I woke up like a full like
seven and a half hours later.

Yeah, I felt amazing.

A bet.

I didn't wake up, I didn't like
roll, I didn't toss and turn.

I was like, wow.

And I had taken like a break
from my screens even before I

got into bed.

I was like, this is I should
really practice what I preach

all the time.

Totally.

It might help.

SPEAKER_01: And yet we get this
message like we need our screens

at all times.

Check your phone, check your
email before you can go to

sleep.

That's in at least that's the
the voice in my head.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Am I being productive enough?

Do we have any emails, text
messages, all this stuff?

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: But you're right.

There's there's no reason I have
to do that at 11:30 at night.

SPEAKER_01: No, but the message
that I grown up with and that

I've internalized is that I need
to be this machine, always

working.

And it's and it's just not
healthy.

When I'm in machine mode, I'm
irritable.

I'm unreasonable with people I
love.

I miss out on the joys that that
you know that every day brings.

It's not like we talked about
this before.

It's not like I'm gonna have a
good day or a bad day.

I think all my days have good
and bad in them, but I really

want to be present for the good
parts.

And I'm not if I'm in like
machine mode.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

So let's look at how to remove
ourselves from machine mode, as

you're saying.

And I think as we kind of get
older and as we progress, I

think it starts to feel like
that.

It feels there's just more to
do, there's more

responsibilities, there's more
on us, there's more, there's

less time we have because
there's a crunch, right?

There's the crunch of, hey,
life's going to end at some

point, you know, if we were
gonna get really existential

about it.

But kids are getting older,
family and friends are

everybody's aging, moving on.

So we start to feel the crunch
that and time time speeds up as

we get older.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.

Every year that passes, it's
faster.

It goes by faster than the year
before it for me.

SPEAKER_00: I remember as a
little kid just thinking like a

summer was a lifetime.

Yeah, and it was great.

Right.

I just I everything just took
forever.

Totally.

And and even being young and and
being able to feel that and

acknowledge it, it was a good
feeling.

Yes.

Now I'm like, man, summer's done
in like a couple weeks.

That's what it feels like, a
couple days.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And oh my God, it's
the holidays again.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: I used to, as a kid,
I used to be like, oh, when is

it gonna be Christmas?

SPEAKER_00: Oh God, Christmas
break was like forever.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: But so if we think
about like, so so if we're

dealing with this issue that
that time is speeding up and

there's just tons more to do.

We're more responsible.

We have to be more on point,
we're getting all this

messaging.

How are we stepping back?

And what do we need to do?

How do we how do we kind of
resolve this?

How do we step back and say, can
I slow this down?

Can I slow the process down?

Can I look at things from a
different perspective, maybe, to

help?

Are there things that can make
me feel better as I go through

it?

And now you're talking about
move a muscle, change a thought.

If you don't like how you feel
right now, or you don't like the

thoughts that are going through
your head right now, get up and

move.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: I I think about this
all the time.

Yeah, I'm sitting here, I don't
feel just get up and move.

This was the why I run.

Yeah, I get so caught up sitting
in a chair, talking, listening

all day.

And I'm like, oh man, I just
gotta get up and move.

Right.

Stuff's still going through my
head when I'm out there.

SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be
that therapist who says, you

know, you can solve all your
problems with exercise, you

know.

SPEAKER_00: It's just omega-3s.

SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly,
exactly.

But I have seen this again and
again.

I've lived it myself.

I was an overweight kid.

I was Grand Kenyan.

I I never played sports.

You played soccer your whole
life?

I never played sports.

I tried playing soccer when I
was six years old.

I sucked so hard at it that I
was like, forget this.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: I didn't say I was
any good at it.

SPEAKER_01: I just played it my
whole life.

That was enough to like I did
not do it.

The first sport that I really
discovered was cross-country

running in high school, yeah, in
boarding school.

It was trail running as a sport.

And you were a team, but you
weren't really, you know, it was

more of an individual thing.

SPEAKER_00: So yeah, like your
time contributes to the overall,

right?

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And I experienced
the runner's high for the first

time, you know, the flooding of
the endorphins and everything

you described earlier, you know,
like being outside in really

beautiful environs, the feeling
of just being in motion, that

was transformative for me.

And I lost weight and I was more
engaged in life as a result.

I had my confidence gone up.

I felt more comfortable.

I was an actor, I felt more
comfortable on stage or in front

of a camera, I felt more excited
about me.

Meeting people.

And definitely my mood elevated.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And the depression
kind of like went into the

background.

And that stuck with me.

I know that if I am feeling
anxious, if I am feeling

depressed, as you said, I need
to get up and I need to do

something.

Even in in even if I don't have
time because I'm 50 and I have

two kids.

Right.

We have a therapy practice and
books that we're writing and all

this other stuff.

What's good enough?

I don't have to do a hard hour
of what did you say?

Zone five, zone six?

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh zone four.

Zone four.

Zone five.

Yeah.

Is there a zone six?

I think it's zone six is pretty
much cardiac arrest.

SPEAKER_01: Cardiac arrest.

SPEAKER_00: I would think so,
yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So but but you I
think about you a lot, because

you you remind me of that a lot.

Like, hey, if you can't do an
hour workout, maybe you do 20

minutes.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: The same with
meditation.

I get so stuck on, well, I'm a
transcendental meditation

practitioner.

I need to be doing two sessions
of 20 minutes a day, 40 minutes

a day total.

And it's the reality is, I had a
great friend who's a meditation

instructor.

She just, Jessica, she just
said, you know what, if you can

get a minute in some days,
that's better than nothing.

SPEAKER_00: Well, you go back to
the diaphragmatic breathing.

It goes from fight or flight to
rest and digest.

That's the easy way to remember.

By the quality of breath, just
by breathing deep into your

belly instead of into your
chest.

Even if you just do that for a
minute, you're already switching

off all that that kind of like
that intensity and the anxiety

and everything else.

That's a meditation.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You do that walking
down the street.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You do like what you
can do it sitting on the subway

in the middle of it.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

Kegels for your anxiety.

SPEAKER_01: Excellent.

I like that.

Do them everywhere.

And anywhere.

SPEAKER_00: Anywhere.

SPEAKER_01: It's so funny.

I just did it.

I just did not keggles, but uh
diaphragmatic breathing.

I just took it, and you know
what immediately I was I was

ready to yawn.

So I thought, oh wow, I didn't
relax.

SPEAKER_00: Rest and digest.

SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing: I
need this reminder, not only

daily, but multiple times a day
because I forget.

I hear it, I practice it when
we're having this conversation.

I appreciate it deeply.

I see, I feel the benefits of
slowing down and not being so

hard on myself and just being
good enough, whether it's food

or water or exercise or
meditation or sleep.

And yet I forget and I go into
this overachiever mode where I

need to prove to the world and
myself that I can somehow be a

superhero and that I don't need
the basics.

SPEAKER_00: No, we all because
they're so basic.

It's because it's rote, because
it's just something simple, we

we start to disregard it.

I think we just we just don't
pay enough attention to those

things.

And when we're looking at
stepping back from that kind of

like high-functioning machine,
kind of like, you know, being

that you were talking about,
when we're in that state, when

we're in that kind of like, oh
my god, I gotta get all this

stuff done, we're missing very
small things in life.

I was really reflecting on this
a lot last night.

I was reading the news and I was
just like, this is awful.

I had this conversation with a
friend who was kind of like

talking a lot about this same
stuff, and I didn't have an

answer.

I didn't have any suggestion,
and not that I need to give it,

I know I don't need to give
anybody an answer.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: But man, do I feel
all the time that I need to give

somebody an answer or have a
suggestion?

But you know, I was sitting
there going like, what do I do?

I just stood out on the it was
starting to warm up.

I stood out on the the back
porch and I was like, I don't

think I need to do anything, I
think I just need to just to

take it in for a second and and
just pause, just stop, pause,

take in the air, and remind
myself that my feet were on the

cold stone outside, just a
little damp from all the snow

melt.

It's like, you know what?

Yeah, there's a lot of chaos
going on.

I can't really affect any of it.

Right.

I need to just take care of
myself right now.

What do I need to do?

I can go upstairs, my kids are
already asleep, I can go just

kiss them on their forehead, and
I did, and it was such a it was

such a simple task and such a
simple kind of thing that

brought me back to like, oh,
this is okay.

There's a ton of chaos around,
but it's okay if I just do the

smallest thing.

Yeah, I can run, I can exercise,
I can not drink, I can eat well,

and spend time with family,
spend time with connect with

people who are important.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

It's so important.

And that's another reminder
that's useful.

My worst nightmare was having
children.

I couldn't imagine it.

I was just like, oh my god, when
we found out about our first

one, I was absolutely terrified.

I was like, please somebody wake
me up.

And and now, fast forward to
today, he's seven, my daughter's

four.

They bring me so much joy.

And when I remember, you know,
they remind me constantly

because they're so loud and
running around and like, but

like uh I was driving up here to
to record today.

I was stressed out.

There was an accident on the
highway.

The ETA just kept getting
further and further away.

I was panicking.

And then my kids called me on my
wife's phone to report that they

had found a sizable clump of
deer poop now that the snow has

melting.

And they purposefully didn't
clean it up because they wanted

to show it to me.

Instantly, I was transported to
just like laughter and joy.

And thank God for that.

Thank, thankfully, I was I was
able to like key in.

SPEAKER_00: And step back for a
right, you got to step back, and

that's just and and there's so
much there that you can look at,

you know, but but really just to
just to recognize how you were

able to step back.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, suddenly it
didn't matter that I was in this

car, trapped in this car on a
highway in gridlock traffic,

late to record, screwing up the
whole day, wasting your time.

It was just like, oh my god, my
kids are so funny.

And we have deer poop in the
yard.

SPEAKER_00: And they're excited
about it.

Yeah.

So excited that they want to
save it to show you.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: Lucky you.

SPEAKER_01: Amazing.

SPEAKER_00: But very lucky you.

SPEAKER_01: Amazing.

SPEAKER_00: So stepping back and
recognizing the small little

moments, it sounds like it's
it's one of the ways to kind of

help reduce some of this stress
or focus on that fire hose of

information and just
overwhelming things we have to

deal with every day.

And then picking one or two
things, small things in your

life that are really important.

I just keep going back to like
the time with people.

Yeah.

Because we talk about connection
being so important.

And what is the quality of the
time that you do spend?

And that's with any human being.

What kind of time are you
spending with somebody?

Is it complaining about things?

Is it focusing on negativity?

Is it really is it arguing?

Is it confrontation?

Or do you have connection with
other people or time that you

spend with other people that
supports you know feeling good,

feeling seen, feeling heard,
feeling maybe it's it's

stimulating your brain.

Right.

We talk about brain health going
back to that.

You want to have stimulating
conversation with people.

You want to talk about things,
you want to create.

We've talked so much about music
and and cre in in that process.

Think about artwork, anything
where you get to create with

something, create an idea,
create just a moment.

SPEAKER_01: You can't do it
without time.

SPEAKER_00: No, so taking that
moment to pause, really looking

at setting an intention of what
is important to us.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Small things.

And we have in and there's a
spectrum for that.

There's big things that are
important to us that we need to

work towards every day or over
time, but set small goals, set

if things are feeling awful.

It's not that they're always,
but if things are feeling

overwhelming or that it's just
too much, look at who's around

you.

What are you going to spend your
time doing today to make those

connections?

And then how are you taking care
of yourself?

You know, going back to what you
were talking about at the

beginning, how are you taking
care of your body?

How are you showing up?

Because you can't show up if
you're not taking care of

yourself.

SPEAKER_01: No, you got to put
the oxygen mask on yourself

before you put it on somebody
else, especially as a mental

health practitioner.

And you're reminding me, yeah.

Time.

You know what?

I make this green smoothie every
day.

It's got kale, it's got spinach,
it's got protein powder, it's

got bee pollen.

SPEAKER_00: It was the best
green smoothie I've ever had, I

have to tell you.

Seriously, and I've had a lot of
green smoothies.

That was the best one I've ever
had.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.

Erin, my wife thinks it's the
most disgusting thing she's ever

had in her life.

But I just love it and I love
that you love it.

That takes to do that properly,
takes, with cleanup and

everything, a half hour.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And there's so many
days where I think, like, oh

God, I just, I just need to grab
something quickly.

I need to eat.

But the truth is, that's time
well spent.

That time that I take to make
that green smoothie every day is

a good investment.

The time that I take to, in my
case, go down to the basement to

exercise.

I don't go to a gym anymore,
whether it's 20 minutes or the

full hour that I like to get,
that's time well spent.

Yes.

And I it does require
intentionality.

SPEAKER_00: It does.

And acceptance.

And acceptance.

Like what I mean, what I'm what
I mean by that is you're not

looking at that and saying, if I
don't put in a full hour, I'm

less than or I failed.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

Which is hard for me.

SPEAKER_00: It's hard for me
too.

If I don't run six and a half
miles, then did I really

actually run?

Yeah.

And then when I think about it,
like I love Strava and like I

use a Garmin watch.

So, you know, I I can see other
people and the percentages of

who runs like for my age group,
how far did people typically

run?

I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: I'm putting in
miles, like more than most.

But I have to remember that.

So setting that in and setting
that intention, knowing that if

you put in 20 minutes making a
smoothie and not the half hour,

or you don't get to do it that
day, it's okay.

You didn't fail.

SPEAKER_01: That's important.

That's important.

And that goes back to the good
enough, whether it's good enough

parenting or good enough
smoothie making.

SPEAKER_00: Good enough
exercise.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

It's it's so important because,
gosh, if I'm looking through

social media, comparing and
despairing, I'm thinking like, I

just don't do enough.

SPEAKER_00: I saw this whole
post this morning.

It was this whole thing about
what Henry Cavill had to do for

his role in Superman.

Yeah.

He had two scenes where he had a
shirt off, and it took him six

weeks to prepare for those
scenes of only 1,500 calories a

day and dehydrating himself to
the point of like being ill

before he did the shoot.

But when you think about the
people watch that movie, they're

like, God, I wish I could look
like that.

Right.

I wish I could look like that.

I wish I could like or even get
close to that.

SPEAKER_01: Every day I work on
getting a little bit more

accepting of my 50-year-old body
having grown up with an eating

disorder and dysmorphia.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: It's harder to do
that than it than it may sound.

And the reality is when I'm not
thinking about my body, when I'm

just in the moment, enjoying my
life, or just even if it's

something that's challenging and
not particularly enjoyable, if

I'm just in it and I'm not
distracted with these awful

thoughts that just, you know,
cycle the loop, doom loop.

I'm I'm so much better off.

And definitely activity gets me
there.

SPEAKER_00: Activity, solid
diet, like really just eating

well, paying attention, being
mindful.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.

Thanks for listening to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

Local Emergency Services or a
trusted mental health

professional.