Words of Radiance Part 5 - Brandon Sanderson - Fantasy Book - Progression Fantasy Book

Hey, Adventures, we are still on Roshar, discussing Words of Radiance. In this episode of the Side Quest Podcast, Slava and Jonathan are joined by the one and only Spenser.  This conversation delves into the complexities of trauma, the transition from childhood to adulthood, and the various ways individuals cope with their experiences. The guys explore Kaladin's growth, Shallan's discoveries, and Adolin's dueling strategies, all while highlighting the tension and conflicts that arise among the characters. The discussion emphasizes the themes of honor, duty, and the complexities of relationships as the characters navigate their challenges.

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(00:00) Cold Open & Intro
(03:04) Character Dynamics and Relationships
(05:54) Training and Combat Skills
(09:05) High School Drama in Adult Relationships
(11:51) The Nature of Weapons and Morality
(15:00) Personal Beliefs and Cultural Practices
(18:00) Prejudice and Perception of Others
(21:09) Family Dynamics and Personal Struggles
(23:53) The Complexity of Choices and Consequences
(38:42) Trauma Responses and Psychological Depth
(42:48) The Role of Dark Humor in Coping
(46:49) The Nature of Choice in Trauma Responses
(48:21) Kaladin's Leadership and Motivational Challenges
(51:57) The Ethics of Assassination and Political Intrigue
(57:20) Exploring the Nature of Just Wars
(01:01:36) Shallan’s Family and Emotional Conflict
(01:04:38) Shallan’s Strength and Inner Resilience
(01:07:34) The Impact of Highstorms on Character Growth
(01:09:52) Nature as Symbol and Setting
(01:11:26) Humor in Battle: The Shard Plate Dilemma
(01:18:07) Uncut Gems?
(01:32:11) Dalinar’s Visions and Prophetic Weight
(01:40:52) The Parshendi and Their Cultural Forms
(01:46:41) Kaladin’s Growth: Mastery and Burden
(01:49:25) Shallan’s Discoveries and Rising Tension
(01:50:52) Adolin’s Duels and Strategic Play
(01:54:34) Vale’s Lesson and the Ghostblood Web
(01:59:11) The Rules of the Game: Power and Boundaries
(02:04:10) Kaladin’s Honor and Last-Minute Rescue
(02:12:26) Arena Showdown: To Kill the Wind

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

Jonathan (00:00.174)
I'm asking and the only reason I'm asking is because I'm going somewhere. Shocker. Because Kaladin's not even, I think, 19 at this point. He was a child when he went to war, basically. And so like there's compassion here for Shalan killing her mother, but like Kaladin was also a child when he was killing people. So I'm just going leave that there.

I gotta know. No, you're not. No, you're not. Because you betray your ignorance of psychology and psychiatry. There are people who experience a trauma. Each person will deal with it differently, and there's different types of trauma, and people have different responses. Different types of trauma also attach themselves to people in different ways.

So people will have sometimes decades before they can realize what their body and their mind and their psyche is doing before they can move forward from the trauma. And Jonathan deals with it in a particular way and he can probably get over things quicker than most people. That doesn't mean that the people who've taken longer than Jonathan are somehow weaker or aren't doing the right things.

Wait, do you feel like Kaladin got over his trauma?

No, but what is behind your statement? Well, Calvin's also killing people and he's not, know, he doesn't go into a fugue state when he's thinking about the people he's killed, but Shalane killed her mom. That's some nameless whatever the guys they were killing.

Jonathan (01:40.11)
Can you give us just like a quick explanation of just like what a fugue state is for the listeners? I know what it is, I just like level set, like what is a fugue state real quick.

A fugue state is when the mind and the body just shuts down and you are probably aware that you are in a state, but you can't do anything about it. And sometimes you're not aware, but you just shut down and you can't do anything. It's like computer, you know, shutting down or going to sleep mode.

Cool, thanks.

So are you calling me a two year old?

Are you in a few steps?

Jonathan (02:11.726)
That's how I got him here. I shoved a couple zins in his mouth and said, jump on this podcast. But back to your thing, Slava, real quick, and then Spencer, bring us to the next chapter or whatnot. I'm not talking about Kaladin getting over it. I'm saying that he hasn't gotten over it and it hasn't even been processed yet, which is why he's denying that he wants to use. I'm saying that Shalana and Kaladin are in the same place. It just looks different. Your point, I think, emphasizes that, that people deal with it differently.

He's a soldier, he doesn't have an option not to try to protect his friends. So he doesn't have time to deal with the trauma of like the things that happen.

think your setup was confusing because your question, well, when does a child stop being a child sets up like what I perceived as a rebuttal to my statement or a challenge to my statement. I'm like, well, it doesn't matter when a child is okay. So she's not a child anymore. Trauma is still there.

no, yeah, was trying to equate the- both of them went through trauma as children.

Carry on then.

Jonathan (03:20.558)
Good good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuests, because frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.

Good morning, Jonathan.

Good morning, Flava!

Spencer is here with us today.

Heard he's visiting from Shinobar.

Spenser (04:02.712)
Good morning, yes, I have traveled on the winds from Shinovarr to join you guys today.

Very nice. Yes. What's going on in Chinavar these days? Actually, can't talk about that.

Yeah, we can't talk about that. Top secret. Top secret info.

Two more books before we can talk about that or two and a half I guess because we're only halfway through this thing

I was just, yeah, yeah, two and a half. But, yeah, don't worry. There's plenty to be updated on once, once we learn more about Shin of R.

Jonathan (04:26.679)
nice

Slava (04:33.76)
Any words for me Asna who's totally alive?

dead.

She's she's chillin' right now. Cool.

in the intermediate state.

It's

Spenser (04:42.926)
In the beyond right now. She's in the beyond. So I decided to hop in here in the middle of our hero's journey and as they work towards their destination, will they make it? I don't know, but I'll see what I can do.

Blast.

Excellent, so I say we dive right into it gentlemen We are on chapter 44 one form of justice and here we have Kaladin Arriving at the light eyes training grounds and he has the heel to train him and moash boo Teft and Yaki Yaki. Yeah, yake yake and yake zahil plays a game

where he throws rocks into a circle and tells Kel'din to do laps around the grounds, but then tells him to stay as it was only a test. Zahil gives instructions to R'narin and brings one of the king's sharp blades for the bridgemen to practice with. Zahil tells them he got permission from Dalinar and Elikar for the men to learn sword stances to better counter Zeth's attacks. Zahil says there's nothing holy about the sword.

that he is not a very good ardent. Moash, Teft, and Yake practice with the sharp blade, but Kal'din declines since he has bad memories of friends being killed by them. Kal'din tells Zahil to swing the blade at him without a guard so they can have practice facing one. Sil thanks Kal'din for not using the blade. As Kal'din is dodging Zahil's swings, he meets Adolin who gives him a nod of respect.

Slava (06:25.45)
Ivis takes Zahil's place and trains the bridgemen on the ten sharp blade stances. After the practice, Kaladin gets some water and glasses around the training grounds and spots Shalon. Yeke says she is good looking, but Kaladin retorts that she is probably there to ogle him and that she can't stay as it would set a bad precedent. Shalon goes to speak to Nal.

and doesn't even notice Adolin. Shalan asks permission to sketch the shard plate and shard blades for the Royal Record and receives it from Null. Adolin says he thinks Shalan is there to watch him, but Shalan says that Adolin is egotistic for thinking that. And she tells Kaladin she returns his booth slightly modified and that she still wants to take a walk with Adolin. Shalan abruptly leaves them to watch R'Naren and

Zaheel and Adalin grins and says that Shalan is insufferable for ignoring him, then walks away. Kalin rejoins Moash and the others but watches Adalin, Renarin and Shalan. Moash says that Elkar had his family executed and explains how it happened and that another Light Eyes was involved. Kalin asks if Moash cut the balcony and Moash says that they can't speak there since it's too open. Moash doesn't deny it.

and Kaladin grows agitated and threatens to turn Moesh but is convinced not to as long as Moesh stops trying to kill the king. Moesh says others are involved and asks Kaladin to meet them and he agrees. Syl says that they should go to Dalinar and she senses danger but Kaladin says that he wants to find out more first. Kaladin continues to practice with the sharp blade and ignores laughter and frowns from the light eyes.

thinking he was actually worthy for defeating the Shardbearer and on how Alethi society is supercritical on its treatment of the Dark Eyes. Kaladin asks Zil for advice on who is right to kill and who isn't and Zil says it depends if the killing is to protect or not. Kaladin asks to learn the last clap maneuver which Dallinor used to catch Zeth's Shardblade.

Slava (08:51.864)
from Zahil but he says it won't be useful to learn and the Swordmaster is happy that Kaladin accepts this explanation. Some intrigue, some high school BS here, Kaladin continues on.

I'm I guess Slava or Jonathan, what you would consider the high school BS and maybe elaborate on that a little.

for sure.

I would love to talk about

I have some notes. Shalon, Adeline and Kaladin. Their little interaction here feels like, like you, I don't like you. Yeah. she's ignoring me. she likes me. she's here. No, you you're egotistical. You're insufferable. It's usual even for adults, but it reeks of high school drama to me.

Spenser (09:42.653)
Mm-hmm. Gotcha.

Have you, I'm sure that you've seen them, Spencer. I don't know what memes Slava's seen. Have you seen the memes about the Thrupple, Kaladin, Adolin, and Shalan?

I don't think so. I've seen like reels about it on Instagram, but

memes, reels, all the same thing to me.

I guess I've never heard the term throuple thrown around with them.

Jonathan (10:06.776)
I think it was, it got some more play before Wind and Truth came out. I'm just like, man, let's, hopefully we get a throuple. And I'm just like, what are you people smoking? This is nonsense. Like, Kalanun would never go for that. Adolin would never go for that. Like, just let people be friends and let them also be in relationships. And people can call me old fashioned and that's fine, but that would not create really great book reading. That would be a romantic book.

That'd be a romance fantasy. That's what that would be.

Yeah, I think it would turn it into more of a YA thing too. And that's not what he's going for, Samuelson here. And so I agree with you. think I've seen a lot of comments online where people, yeah, same, where they're just trying to, you know, ship Aladin, Kaladin, Adolin, Shalan together, trying to make this into some weird drama. Yeah, I think it would take away from the overall.

to the Cosmere is what they're trying to do. Yes, thank you Slava for sending us the meme.

Exactly.

Spenser (11:14.935)
I love that one.

Adeline looking at Kaladin as the girl in the red dress. Very nice. And Shalon next to her like, what are you doing?

Perfect. Yep.

Anyway, the high school tea, that's basically what this is in terms of like also the audience being like, my gosh, it's like just chill, night's ready and don't need to hook up. It's cool, man, just chill.

It actually, and I think we'll get more of this later, but it also makes for a good storyline where Adolin is not a radiant and he feels inferior because of it. And he is dating, well, at this point in the story, he's dating Shalon. But I guess that's probably more future stuff that I keep wanting to bring into the story here.

Jonathan (11:51.181)
Yes.

Spenser (12:09.112)
makes a great storyline.

He doesn't even get to take any oaths. You could call him un-oathed.

You could call him that. Slava, this chapter we see Sil thank Kaladin for not using the sword that Zahel gives them to practice with. Why do you think Sil thanks him for that?

She seems to have the same aversion to shard blades as he does, probably for different reasons, but she thinks they're evil and so she is happy that he doesn't want to use one.

think that she thinks they're evil.

Slava (12:48.494)
I had a theory about this when I originally read the book. made a note of it and now of course I'm going to have to scrape the bottom of my brain to find it. I think because of the place she came from, from the dimension that she came from, she has access to information about their origin or how they've been used after they were abandoned. And in her little spren brain, the association she makes with them is with the evil that they've been used for.

So she has that point of reference and it's a narrow point of reference as she grows kind of her cognitive abilities. That's why I think Syl doesn't like them and Kalden just because he's a morose character. He associates it with his friends dying so he has this troddered. Would you say that? No, I would not say that.

That was not at all. Elaborate please.

Well, let's use any other weapon. Swords are a tool, right? The, a weapon, a weapon is a tool. If you want to break it down to bare bones. let's say, Caledon is a Marine and somebody used an AK-47 to kill his friends. And then he refuses to pick up AK-47s. One could understand the trauma response, but then the day that's really not a rational response. It's a very emotional response.

One could show empathy towards a person like that, then the day doesn't make the response correct.

Jonathan (14:23.758)
But here's the thing, he's just refusing AK-47s. He'll still pick up an M4. Still weird. He's using a spear. He's choosing not to use a sword. It's not all weapons, it's just that weapon.

It's still weird.

Slava (14:35.768)
Sure, still weird, in my opinion.

Pop another's in. Let's keep going.

Let's do it.

you

Let's see how tweaked we can make him.

Spenser (14:44.718)
So that's interesting because in this recap Zahel says that there is nothing holy about the sword. So Zahel has no aversion to using it and he's an ardent.

Yeah, well Sahe also used Nightblood, so...

That was okay.

There's nothing holy about that sword either. You sounded like Nightblood earlier when you said, evil.

Yeah, exactly.

Slava (15:07.565)
I have my moments.

which you'll

like to destroy some evil?

I wish I had some way to just like prop this up in the episode.

Just hold it the whole time.

Jonathan (15:18.555)
okay, I'd love to hold it the whole time.

That will get you like your arms will get a nice workout actually.

And you gotta balance it because it doesn't stay.

as a

You

Jonathan (15:34.804)
I will be mur- I've- Shut up, Lorca.

Laughter

For those on the audio, I'm holding the Kickstarter campaign Nightblood Sword and it just it's slippery for no other reason than how is

And those of you who are wondering what Lorca means, it's the name that Jonathan gave his sharp blade.

No, that's not true. It's the brain rot that's...

Slava (15:59.948)
Link in the description.

Link is in the description, but it is the brain rot that Slava sent me. So please enjoy the brain rot.

It is worth it. The Brain Ride is worth it.

Be sure to drop us a rating and help us spread the word if you're enjoying today's sidequest.

So Zahel says that there's nothing holy about the sword. I'm curious, Jonathan, if you ever had anything in your life where you deem something as quote unquote holy, but maybe someone else or maybe everybody else views that thing as not holy. And have you had your opinion changed about said thing? Yeah, what would that be?

Jonathan (16:35.96)
Good question. You know, life is a journey, not a destination. There are some things that have changed and then I think they've reverted where it's an example, you know, Jewish grew up not eating pork for the most part and then was kind of like, well, it's whatever new, we are in a new covenant. And now I'm kind of going back to like, but it doesn't really do anything for me. Right. So although it's not holy for everyone, that's like a thing similar to Sabbath.

I've been contemplating more on, we used to take like a more rigid Sabbath, like 24 hours, three stars in the sky to start it, three stars in the sky to end it. And then college years, whatever, became more lax on it and kind of going back to a more reverent view of like, hey, the Lord gave us these things for a reason. And even if it doesn't feel like society needs to value them as holy.

what I'm called to do and what society's called to do don't have to be the same thing. So I think those are the first two examples that come to mind. I don't necessarily have an AK-47 to quote Slava. All of my weapons are martial. So, and for those who don't know, martial just means like hand weapons, martial arts weapons. So that'd be my, the first two things that come to mind.

Awesome, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Slava, I'm curious if there's anything, just kind of throw that question at you as well, if there's anything in your life similar.

He's a degenerate. Nothing's holy to him.

Spenser (18:03.982)
You

Thanks Lorca.

Peace.

Yeah, mine is similar to Jonathan, because I'm also Jewish.

Stop copying me, Lorca.

Spenser (18:18.222)
Getting out of hand.

I grew up with the identity very historical and cultural. And even those aspects of the identity were very much secondary or tertiary to everything else in my life. Cause my father, you know, was a Christian. He had some Jewish ancestry in his side of the family. My mom definitely has Jewish ancestry on her side of the family. She was already a Christian when she met my father and the whole

Jewish identity thing was there. And I even experienced anti-Semitism and racism without even living a Jewish life at all. And in my twenties, I decided to take that a little bit more seriously. I had a Jewish wedding. I lived very Jewishly, like observing the Sabbath, having a kosher home. Although when outside the home, I would eat pork like a...

Like it was going out of style. So I had, I kind of separated it. Like I wanted to experience this lifestyle. And when living in New York, lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, both secular and religious. were kind of where I lived, the melding of both of those neighborhoods after leaving New York and after leaving the Jewish community. I didn't want to do this on an island by myself. So a lot of this has went by the wayside and now I live in the boonies.

And I go to a PC USA church and any Presbyterian church of any stripe, is liturgy and a church calendar, a liturgical calendar and Sabbath, which right now it's, you know, Sunday. My wife and I pretty much take the all of Sunday off as a Sabbath. And when living the life I lived in New York and in Chicago, I got a lot of pushback even from other Jews who were like, well, why are you doing that?

Slava (20:11.662)
to Jonathan's point, we're in a new covenant. I'm like, well, I think this is appropriate. Like theologically and otherwise culturally, it's appropriate when you're in a community to live out these things in a communal way. And then fast forward to me living here, we had like a six person zoom call to catch up all the guys that we were friends with from that life. And they asked me because they knew my approach to it. They asked me like, are you still doing this and that?

I was like, well, no, because there's nobody to do it with. still celebrate some of the holidays, but there's nothing, not nothing, but there's nobody to do it with here. So kind of similar, kind of not to Jonathan, but the whole Sabbath thing I still take seriously. And now because, because of the place I live in, there's no Jews around us. There's very few. I don't know any of them if there are in my city. The thing that remains still holy is that Sabbath where my wife and I Sunday is.

easing into the morning, the church service, lunch. And then if we do anything, it's usually religion adjacent. course, that's kind of a silly term, but the only way I can explain it, we don't do any work work on Sunday. That's the closest to holy versus secular or whatever, not holy that I've experienced where I took something seriously and others thought, why are we doing this?

definitely resonate with living in a space where there's no other people of that culture around. It makes it difficult to commit to it where you're like, well, I'm going to do this thing. And then everyone's like, that's weird, but OK. So my little commentary.

Yeah, I grew up in a similar situation, think, where I'm not Jewish, but I also grew up in a very segregated culture. Like we segregated ourselves, very legalistic, super conservative. There are actually probably a lot of things that I would have deemed, you know, holy that now I do on a regular basis that in the past I would have thought I was going to go to hell for. But yeah, so I think it's just interesting how

Spenser (22:22.572)
Life is a journey and perspectives can change over time.

Yeah, for sure. And sometimes in those situations and those types of cultures, Spencer, what you came out of, I've experienced that too. Cause after my dad passed away, my mom went on this journey, whatever you want to call it. And we visited a lot of churches that did exactly what your faith community did. They do self segregate. They kind of like they live in their own little ghetto and everything outside is evil.

and ungodly and only the people inside are what is holy. And they don't even place holiness on like what would be the tenants of the Christian faith, right? They're, you know, the things that are undeniably Christian that these things you must believe to be a Christian or otherwise logically, you just can't be if you don't believe this, but they would assign holiness to a certain practice that is very cultural and very American and very much conservative American.

and either objects or practices that are foreign to any of the biblical writers or people who would have been around during the compilation of the canon, those people would never have thought these things, these things would be foreign to them. So it's funny how we can assign holiness or unholiness to a practice or an object blindly, where we don't think through it at all.

Thanks.

Spenser (23:51.822)
I also think we do that to people. instance, Shalon shows up here on the training grounds and Yeag points out to Kaladin that she's very good looking and Kaladin retorts that she is a light eyes and Teff says that they should keep an eye on Shalon as a possible assassin and Kaladin agrees. So I think we see a little bit of prejudice from Kaladin to a light eyes. And obviously in this world, light eyes look down on dark eyes.

So I think we can do that with people. And obviously there's been plenty of that in our own culture where unfortunately we look down on people because of either the color of their skin or you name it, their culture.

other eyes

Or their eyes. Yep, we specifically in America looked down on people because of their eye color

Yeah, well, a prime example, it's not even a prime example. It's a, it's maybe a stark hyper example, if you will, is my wife is doing her master's thesis in religion and sociology. So religion as the, the top kind of governing aspect of this master's and then sociology is part of her thesis. So the theme of her thesis is how are seminary women treated?

Slava (25:12.25)
in conservative, authoritative, authoritarian, excuse me, context in America. And so she is partnered with a state university. That's not the university she's attending, but another state university where they put out surveys. They have a department and an internal review board and every university does this. But this one has a person who is very interested in the same things that my wife is, and they connect it through.

whatever network and channels they did. And so my wife put out a survey, peer reviewed, internal review board reviewed and approved. And the survey is what's called a dichotomous scale survey. And it's not like on a scale of one to 10 or strongly agree, strongly disagree. All you are presented with is two very opposing viewpoints. And you might be somewhere in the middle. You might reject both, but you have to choose one, the lesser of two evils.

for lack of a better term, and that provides a scale for the survey reviewer. And then you can say, well, 40 % of people view X like this, whatever X is. And X in this case is women who have finished seminary training and how they either have opportunities or don't have opportunities, how they're treated in conservative authoritarian contexts. And we put it out on all channels and we promoted it in left leaning, you know, channels on social media and

very right leaning channels on social media and we put it out in other places too. lot of hate from the right wingers, naturally because they felt it was us poking them in the eye with a stick, but it wasn't. Everything was there on the consent form, explaining what this is, how the survey works, why the questions are worded the way they are. And so by the right wingers, my wife was accused of being a liberal, feminine Nazi. Okay. All right, fine.

And then all the left-wingers are like, this is Christian nationalism. So that is how easily both sides of the aisle view each other as the enemy without any thought. Well, without thinking through what this might be for the right-wingers, the title of the survey, you know, has the word right-wing Protestant authoritarianism. And they're like, see, they all think we're this and that. No.

Slava (27:33.824)
Not every right-winger is authoritarian. Not every conservative is a Nazi or a nut bag. But for them, that's already an attack. And for every left-winger, because it didn't align with their view of right-wingers, obviously we're Christian nationalists because we're not as left as them. Both of us are fairly left of center on a lot of things. So we could never associate with Christian nationalism. So that's an abomination in my opinion, but how the French and

Granted, the people that responded negatively to the survey, most of them were just screeching a-holes from both sides of the aisle. But that just shows you how easily we can make the other into an enemy without even giving any thought to nuances, to context, to categories. That's out the window.

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point. And I even think we see that being carried out right here in this chapter. And up to this point, Moash is currently involved in this plot to kill Elokar and Kaladin knows about it, but is also not really doing anything to stop Moash. Moash has this prejudice against Elokar and Light Eyes and honestly, can't, it's hard to blame him because

From Moash's perspective, Elokar killed his family, but Moash becomes so singularly focused on trying to kill Elokar. There's more to the story that he doesn't know, but he's allowing this anger and this bitterness towards Elokar to infect his view of all light eyes. Kaladin's struggling with that a little bit as well. So, Jonathan, I'm curious if you've ever been in a situation where you see a friend

who is heading in a certain direction that is destructive or that you think is destructive to their life. And you've had an opportunity to maybe try to correct them and show them like, I think you're going on a wrong path here. Yeah.

Jonathan (29:31.978)
Yes, actually a fair number of people. If I may, I'll use you as an example. Sure. When we first became friends and started talking Cosmere and fantasy novel stuff, and you know, that was probably what, three, four years ago now?

Okay, all right.

Spenser (29:47.398)
at least three.

Leaves three, yeah. think it's going on four, whatever. Didn't think much of it at the time because getting to know folks, you you reserve your judgments, just kind of like, hey, what do people do? What are they up to? Whatever. But two and a half years goes by and I see you, you know, still the same job, but talking about getting a new job, having big desires and dreams for your life of wife, family, kids, house, et cetera. My understanding of the economy and where we're going. And I was like, man, you got to do something. You got to change something. And like destruction.

might feel like too strong of a word. The way that I phrase it in terms of people in our age range is that people are squandering their lives. And I say that because they speak about big things that they want. And the thing is like, it used to be table stakes. Like you get a job, you get a house, you get a kid, you get married, whatever. In like the fifties per se. But today you gotta have two incomes to buy a house. To get two incomes, you either have to have a really great friend who's gonna go in on a house with you.

Or you got to get married. Right. And so, you know, I would, I would talk to you regularly of just like, man, you got to plan for the future. You got to think five, 10 years, 25 years down the line. Like if nothing changes, is this the life you want? It took some cajoling and some, some, forced friending, friend forcing. I don't know how you want to call it, but, forcing you to make different decisions by forcing is like, I can't force you to do anything, but like strongly encouraging to the point of berating you.

where it's like, man, you got to do something different because it's just like the path you were going on is not actually what you want. It's comfortable today, but at the cost of long-term benefit that you want, that you say you want. And the thing is you're not the only person. Like we've got friends in our community. I've got strangers that I've met that I've done the same thing to. I've got, you know, Roxy there. I've done it to her too, Slava's dog.

Slava (31:41.09)
She's grateful.

Yeah, I'm trying to get around the straight and narrow. But when I see stuff like that, I've, the thing is the reason I've got a heart for it, you know, similar to Kaladin is I've been that person. People tried to help me and they, and like, they didn't try, in my opinion, they didn't try hard enough because although I am super stubborn, so maybe they didn't know.

Shut up Lorca. When you guys click the link, it will make so much more sense. In fact, maybe click the link before you listen to this episode.

Maybe just pause right now if you're listening and just go watch it.

But I'll just, I'll stop my diatribe there. So yes, you're my example. And I also give other people this because like, nobody purposely runs towards destruction. That's not true. I have met a couple of those people, but that's actually quite rare. It's usually simply a slow fade and a like, well, I know I should work out to lose weight, but I'd rather have a stuffed churro. I'm just outing myself here, but I know what's good for me.

Jonathan (32:48.322)
But I'd rather do the comfortable thing because it's short-term labor, but long-term has a cost. So anyway, that's my long story long.

for you. Perfect.

Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.

I did like that thing that Spencer sent us yesterday of, this is how you read fantasy. You should put that in the link too.

yeah, that's-

Spenser (33:20.984)
Just reminded me of Slava talking about Mistborn. Well Jonathan, thanks for that. Yeah, I appreciate you as a friend kicking me in the butt and trying to get me moving in life. Speaking of keeping moving, why don't we hop into chapter 45? Jonathan, do you want to maybe give us the recap on this one?

Yeah, Middlefest. Shalan and her family are attending the Middlefest on her father's estates, which draws people from hamlets and villages all around. A thaling merchant has a colorful show chicken. Jexsufnufonone. That's not how you say his name, but that's how we're saying it today. On display, and Shalan thinks it's bizarre. She follows her father to their box at the dueling arena, where they are soon approached by Bright Lord Revalar.

Revalar tries to force her father into an unfavorable business deal, noting his popularity with High Prince Valum and House Devar's declining status. Eventually, her father bows his head and they send Shalana away. She is excited to see the fairer, unchaperoned, but forces herself to do work first. After finding Illite, who gives her a note, she sets off to find her brother, Balat. While searching, she thinks of her mother.

and her mind goes blank. Jix, one of her house guards, eventually finds her and agrees to accompany her. Balot is in the axe hound fights in the gambling pavilion, watching intensely, fixated on the animals killing each other. Shalon gives him the note, and he's surprised and excited by the meeting she's arranged. After he leaves her, Shalon sits on a rock, relieved to be out of the pavilion and happy she was able to help Balot, even in the small way.

When she returns to her father's box, he's in a meeting with a man she doesn't recognize. The man, dressed in black, seems startled when he sees Shalan and almost drops his glass. Melisse tells her that the man claims to have a brought word from her brother, Heliran. When asked what news the man brought, her father commands her not to speak Heliran's name and declares him disinherited. Shalan leaves and seeks out their carriage. Wickham is within depressed and despondent.

Jonathan (35:35.138)
He asks whether their father sent her or whether she came on one of her new little missions of mercy. He tells her that she can't fix their family and that he won't be around to see their collapse because he's dead by then. He'll be dead by then. Feeling like a fool, she gives him the gift she had prepared, a set of math problems, then hastens away from the carriage, fighting back tears. Sitting on a rock and trying to compose herself, the messenger in black starts talking with her. The man, unbeknownst to her,

is Wit. He tells her that the messages sent by Heloran to her father is that he has eyes nearby and is watching. Wit then asks her if Spren talked to her, which causes her to think about twisted symbols the eyes should not see and her mother's soul in a box. She tells him that of course they don't and that she should be returning to her father. Wit tells Shalon that Heloran was right. Her father is destroying their family.

but wrong about everything else. He points out that Wickham is engrossed in the math problems that she had given him. He asks her to tell him the most beautiful things she can imagine, and she describes a scene with her family happily living together. As she talks, Whit pulls out some spheres and wisps a stormlight hanging in the air between them. When she notices, she draws back and the light fades. Whit tells her that she will need to understand the nature of lies and see truth before she can expand upon it. Quite a bit happens in that chapter.

Yes, sir.

for your favorite shalana, lana, ding-dong. That's what I call her on the weekends.

Slava (37:12.47)
as you traverse the chasms.

Yeah, help me out Spencer. I'm losing it.

how do I recover from that?

I don't know, that's why I brought you on the episode.

Great. So we have a flashback chapter here. Shalon interacting with someone for family members. We see Witt show up. Lots of, yeah, lots of interesting stuff here. So one thing that I noticed in this chapter is that when her mother is mentioned, Shalon's mind goes blank. So Slava, what do you think is going on there?

Slava (37:44.076)
think she's trying to block out the memory of her killing her mom. So that's another trauma response for our main characters here. So she doesn't remember what happened at this point. She still doesn't remember what happened that day. She still believes that her dad killed her mom and her lover. And she uses that as a way to not think about what she did, which is mattress side. So she lot in the best way possible. Well.

It's not the best way possible. The best way known to her is trying to block that out of her head, which is fair. This is where I would say this is fair. Not liking a thing because a thing was used to do something that you didn't like might be not fair or rational. But here, rationality doesn't even factor into it. This is something a child experienced that was so traumatic that her body and her mind just blocks.

this is fair. okay.

Slava (38:42.284)
that event from happening for, from thinking about that from happening from, reliving that event, her buying the body blocks it.

Absolutely. Yeah, I don't have any extra thoughts on that.

I've got a lot of thoughts, but I don't want to derail this. Let's keep going.

Let's do it derail us. Okay. Come on Lorca do your thing

So when does someone stop being a child?

Spenser (39:03.79)
That's a great question.

And I got a rebuttal for you right there. But continue.

No, no, that's my first question. That's my first question. In terms of Roshar, like I will try to keep this grounded in the book.

I don't know, 15? 17? You tell me. You're the Cosmerean.

I'm asking and the only reason I'm asking is because I'm going somewhere. Shocker. Because Kaladin's not even, I think, 19 at this point. He was a child when he went to war, basically. And so like there's compassion here for Shalan killing her mother, but like Kaladin was also a child when he was killing people. So I'm just going leave that there.

Slava (39:46.318)
I gotta know, no you're not. No you're not. Because you betray your ignorance of psychology and psychiatry. There are people who experience a trauma, each person will deal with it differently and there's different types of trauma and people have different responses. Different types of trauma also attach themselves to people in different ways.

So people will have sometimes decades before they can realize what their body and their mind and their psyche is doing before they can move forward from the trauma. And Jonathan deals with it in a particular way and he can probably get over things quicker than most people. That doesn't mean that the people who've taken longer than Jonathan are somehow weaker or aren't doing the right things.

Wait, do you feel like Kaladin got over his trauma?

No, but what is behind your statement? Well, Calvin's also killing people and he's not, know, he doesn't go into a fugue state when he's thinking about the people he's killed, but Shalane killed her mom. That's some nameless whatever the guys they were killing.

Can you give us just like a quick explanation of just like what a fugue state is for the listeners? I know what it is, I just like level set, like what is a fugue state real quick.

Slava (41:10.688)
A fugue state is when the mind and the body just shuts down and you are probably aware that you are in a state but you can't do anything about it and sometimes you're not aware but you just shut down and you can't do anything. It's like computer shutting down or going to sleep mode.

Cool, thanks.

Are you calling me a two-year-old?

Are you in a few state?

That's how I got him here. I shoved a couple zins in his mouth and said, jump on this podcast. But back to your thing, Slava, real quick, and then Spencer, bring us to the next chapter or whatnot. I'm not talking about Kaladin getting over it. I'm saying that he hasn't gotten over it and it hasn't even been processed yet, which is why he's denying that he wants to use. I'm saying that Shalana and Kaladin are in the same place. It just looks different. Your point, I think, emphasizes that, that people deal with it differently. He's a soldier. He doesn't have an option not to try to protect his friends.

Jonathan (42:02.636)
So he doesn't have time to deal with the trauma of like the things that happen.

think your setup was confusing because your question, well, when does a child stop being a child sets up like what I perceived as a rebuttal to my statement or a challenge to my statement. I'm like, well, it doesn't matter when a child is okay. So she's not a child anymore. Trauma is still there.

no. Yeah. I was trying to equate the both of them went through trauma as children. any, anyhow, this is why to the audience, this is why we, it's always good to try to create definitions, agree upon the terms before you start talking about things, because otherwise you reach miscommunications and Slava has to buy four new tires now because I overreacted.

Carry on then.

Slava (42:48.084)
I'll show you trauma.

I don't know.

Because as everybody knows, I really like my sedan. When everything happens to it, I'll be distraught forever.

blink twice if you want your car to disappear for insurance money. And it was at that point that he realized he F'd up.

What about you, Spence? Because everybody on this podcast, most of everybody listening has gone through some sort of traumatic event. It could be small compared to kids who are digging for blood diamonds in Africa. It could be small compared to something like a murder of a family member. But everybody has gone through something difficult, at least, based on what Jonathan and I talked about. Apparently, we're in agreement. But what would be your response?

Jonathan (43:30.542)
It's rare.

And I suppose view it in context of the book, not just a general recap of what you think trauma is. think we're all on the same page, but in this situation, like, what is your assessment of like specifically Shalana? Cause this is a Shalane chapter.

He's in a fugue state. Just give him a minute.

My brain runs on Internet Explorer while everybody else runs on Chrome, so I'm going to need a second here. Yes, think Shalan is having a trauma response here to what she did to her mother. And yeah, for her, is whether she's intentionally doing that or whether it's almost like a subconscious thing where her mind just shuts down. It was obviously

too much for her and she created a situation, and the situation being where she just goes into a fugue state, it's fascinating to me, like if she is actually choosing to do that, like how she can just shut off her mind and just not think about it, or if like it is just sort of this subconscious reaction to trauma. Yeah, I guess I'm fascinated if

Spenser (44:49.846)
Like which one is actually happening here?

That's actually a really good question because the choice part of it, how much choice does she have? Right? Cause it could be on a scale where she understands what's happening and instead of going, okay, no, this time will be different or however you want to word it, she lets the response happen. I read a book called The Body Keeps the Score and it's about people who have experienced horrible trauma, molestation, rape, beatings, abuse.

And years later, smells will put people not in a fugue state in this particular situation, but there was a story of a woman in this book where she was abused by her stepfather and he would normally abuse her, frequently abuse her when he was drunk. so alcohol for her was very much like an unholy thing for to use our context. And when her boyfriend would kiss her and if he had a little bit of scruff,

on his face, like from the, unshaven beard that would trigger a response too, because all she remembered was her trigger warning for people, for the next 30 seconds. She would remember her stepfather's beard rubbing up against her cheek as he assaulted her. So for her in her forties, that was an issue. So to your question, she wasn't choosing to have that response. She realized she had that response, you know, the help of therapy.

But where the choice comes in, I think people are aware that, okay, a response is coming and that's, know, when they get on the path to maybe recovery. But I don't know if there is like, like a 50 50 choice, meaning, oh, okay, I'll either choose a or B and now I'm choosing B and this time I won't have the trigger response or the trauma response. So it's very muddy. It all depends on the actual event that triggers it, the person, how they've dealt with it or.

Slava (46:49.848)
chose not to deal with it at all or where they are on their journey.

But one thing's for sure, at the end of all of your trauma, it usually produces dark humor.

This is so true. This is so true.

Because the mind needs a way to make sense of things. I think dark humor is a way of doing that.

absolutely. Absolutely. I known many soldiers, a few cops in my life, a few people who have also gone through regular citizens who've gone through some severe stuff. The dark humor is not just a, you know, a bandaid. It's not even always a response. It's a way to process it and to make light of it and to actually move on and to make, to take ownership of it. You make fun of it.

Slava (47:43.82)
You say off the wall, dark stuff, not because you are in like a pit of depression or you're making light of these things. It's you're making light of them, not for the sake of just making light of them. Let me say it that way. You're making light of them and you can find these things to almost conquer them, at least for me. And that's why to bring it back to Shallan, that's why I do like Shallan so much. Cause the wit and Siri from Warbreaker, just the way they dealt with all their stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Why don't we keep moving forward here? Chapter 46. Who wants to read the summary for that one?

take that one. have chapter 46 named Patriots. Kalden reviews bridge 17 and tells Pitt how impressed he is, which is a lie, but spoken to motivate like a true SEO. He then checks on bridge 18 where there are problems with cohesion. Kalden gives them a motivational speech and decides to split them up if their morale doesn't improve. As Kalden goes to check on bridge 19, Sylphrena

shites him on working instead of eating dinner. She tells Kaladin that she sees red sprints sometimes and Kaladin thinks there's a connection to the countdown, which points to the weeping. Kaladin relents and goes to his barracks for dinner stew. Kaladin scoffs at disbelief that more of Lopen's cousins joined Bridge 4. Very funny. I really love this point. Damn it to hell.

Ha ha ha ha!

Slava (49:20.311)
Lopen. I love the love-hate relationship Kellan has with Lopen. And I love how Lopen gets his goat all the time. You're such a weird man, Lopen. And Lopen loves it.

The lopen to you.

All right. Kalden find Shen and gives him a spear and tells him that he will be permitted to train and Shen praises Kalden and starts to tell him something else, but is interrupted by Moash, who tells Kalden to join them going out. As they walk through the war camp, they hear rumors of war in Yakavid and a new emperor in Azir and Sigzal pays the crier for more information.

Moash picks a tavern called Ornery Chull for them to visit. And just love that. that's a name. The Bridgeman ordered drinks and Rock speaks of his homeland and how the horn eaters ended up living in the mountains with the help of the gods. Rock says the hot springs are not just regular water, but rather a connection to the gods and a place to view the place of the gods. Rock tells the Bridgeman.

There are certain details that he cannot divulge since they are complicated, such as the reason why he can see spread and also tells them to stop making incorrect assumptions about the story. Kind of a fun little a. Psych was they have their, well, all the, all those talks. Rock says he met a God named Loon, Lunar Anarchy from the hot springs who cannot hurt people. And Sigzal is startled by his physical description.

Slava (50:59.342)
The conversation turns to how Sadius has not been obeying the hunt rotation, causing people to talk in the war camps. Kaladin fantasizes about bringing Sadius down using his abilities. Who hasn't? Moash tells Kaladin that the people he wants, Kal, to meet have arrived. The two leave to see them in private with four people inside a room and a couple of guards. A man named Graves

greets Kaladin heartily and Kaladin recognizes Danlin also. Kaladin calls the so-called Patriots out on their plans to kill Elokar and Graves defends their goal as protecting the kingdom from a terrible ruler and getting a replacement in Dalinar. Kaladin argues against their plans but eventually says he will consider helping them and leaves with Moash. Kaladin tells Moash he wants nothing to do with the plot

and Moish is just pursuing his grudge and not acting out of patriotism, and that Moish is not to meet with them anymore.

think it's when talking about Moash you have to say something after his name like, or, ew, because of what happens.

Well, going back to Jonathan's and my heritage, when celebrating Purim, there's the telling of the story of Heyman and Esther. And whenever Heyman's name is read in the story, everybody goes, boo. New rule, every time Moish is mentioned by anybody, the other two has to say boo.

Jonathan (52:38.518)
I love it. It's like Purim all over again, which happened recently. So Slava dressed up like Shalan. Weirdest thing. His wife didn't dressed up. She was standing there to walk the dogs and she was like, what are you doing? He covered his left safe hand though.

to

Slava (52:45.632)
I I'm really working into my own.

Spenser (52:57.444)
the most important part.

and my right save hand. I covered both hands.

It was actually just called the Eora Mittens.

Jonathan (53:10.708)
my gosh. Okay, Spencer bring us-

I don't know, gloves and mittens are pushing the boundary of that. think you gotta have, you can't have the form of the hand showing either. That's, yeah, it's a little taboo. One thing in this chapter that is interesting is Rock tells a story about his people and how they came to live in the mountains and all that. The springs of water he mentions are, he says that they're not just regular water.

too provocative.

Spenser (53:39.586)
but rather a connection to the gods and a place to view the place of the gods. Slava, have you read Elantris?

No, I don't think so. No. No, I do know that I haven't, no.

Okay, well my question is, do you think there's anything special then about these springs of water and what actually are they and what might be going on there?

Good question. I think there's something special about the springs of water for the horn eaters. I don't know if they're necessarily special in reality of the world. I think Rock sees the sprint because he's special. He's making the connection to the water, but I the water is just water.

Read Elantris.

Slava (54:22.742)
The water special, okay.

I didn't say that without saying that.

And then you need to read book two of Mistborn.

I'm still trudging through book one. Although I will say that after chapter 17, they got a lot better. There's two events that I was like, okay, okay, I'm in. Now I want to know more. And it was Kelsier's wife, possibly being a betrayer, spoiler alert, and something with Vin. I forgot, I texted it to you guys and now I forgot, of course. But there's two events separately.

After chapter 17, I think around 17, we get a little bit of Kelsier's wife, which is very tangential, I guess, know, character, not she for Kelsier is not tangential to anything. She's very much important to him. But as a character, she's somewhere on the side. She's dead at this point. So wanting to know more about her realizing that Kelsier has this is doing what he's doing for more than just.

Slava (55:28.354)
being a good thief who wants to get revenge after being sent to the pits, there is a secondary motive there which is very interesting to me. And then something happened with Vin. But anyway, we're detracting from the actual conversations, but I'm now more invested in Miss Born.

the difference between what Kelsey is trying to do and what Moash is trying to do.

That's a great question.

Hmm, that is a good question. Kelsier is not a douchebag. Well, maybe he is. All right. Okay. Okay. Goodness. No, but the looks you guys both gave me, Jonathan rolled his eyes so far into his head, all I could see is white.

didn't say anything.

Jonathan (56:06.776)
He's pretty sure I was having a seizure.

I don't know, I don't know, Jonathan. That's a good question. Aha!

Oh, I was supposed to say that earlier.

If we're gonna step out of the world of the Cosmere, there might be no difference, right? Just from a top kind of like a satellite view, there's no difference. They're both seeking out revenge against a ruler. There's probably nuances and details of each story that set them apart. But I haven't read far enough in either book to tell you what those are. Fair.

I'll leave you with this. This is an unanswerable question. Well, not unanswerable depending on who you ask. Anyway, what is a just war? And we'll just leave it at that. It's a question we can all mull over.

Spenser (56:49.71)
That's going to require a whole other episode on its own.

Well, if you invade a sovereign country, no connection to current events, that probably is an unjust war. If you're defending your country from maybe an axis of evil, I don't know where that term came from. Maybe that is a just war. I don't know. I'll shut up.

Okay, I don't want to get arrested. Next chapter or something.

Some of lopen's cousins will show up in Mistborn or something who knows? I got cousins everywhere at this point

I wish that happened. That'd be great. True.

Slava (57:20.526)
Are they all one armed or is it just. I love loping. Loping is hilarious.

Alright, Guncho.

Spenser (57:28.206)
So good. All right. Why don't we move into Chapter 47? How about I read this one? Is it appropriate? Since, because of course you. I'm in and Wiles that describes me to a T.

Feminine Wife

Jonathan (57:44.248)
Jesus.

Well, you have wiles. I don't know if they're feminine, but...

look, there's like a half a paragraph here. How cool. The plot summary for this chapter is Shalan and Pattern discuss several maps of Roshar that seem to contradict other maps over the actual historical location of Yirithiru. Pattern reads the maps and partially decipher the Dawnchant language that had mystified scholars for a long time. Shalan and Pattern take a carriage to meet Adolin and Shalan practices light weaving.

while traveling. Not a whole lot of feminine wiles going on there, at least in the plot summary for this chapter.

while that

Jonathan (58:27.15)
in the perception of normal feminine wiles. In terms of Shalan wiles and she's feminine, stories.

yes.

Slava (58:37.28)
Yeah, maybe some verve, but no wiles.

Verve, can you define that for us? Verve pipe.

I can. The ver-

I don't like the sound of that.

That's an old band. No. 90s, early 2000s.

Slava (58:51.916)
Yeah. So Verve is a, when you have a, how do I say this? When you have, you, you put your mind to something and do it with vigor, you have a strong spirit. That's Verve. And Wiles is when you use your, the same brain, I suppose, to trick somebody or to steer them your own way. Shalon is now getting back to her scholarship, right? She's enthusiastic. She is very much keen on stopping the void bringers.

continuing Jasna's scholarship and her research.

Someone's gotta take over for her. She's dead. Someone's gotta take over for Jasna since she's dead.

Was that Jonathan?

well she's away, yes somebody has to continue the work.

Jonathan (59:33.73)
Chapter 48, no more weakness after death. Shalon, Belat, and Wickham are all relaxing in the garden when they hear a carriage arriving at their house. Belat goes to see who it is, and Wickham tells Shalon that what she's been doing has been helping their family. He gives her a bag of dried blackbane that he's been carrying around for over a year, indicating that he no longer wants to kill himself, then jogs off to the house.

Though unsettled by the black pain, she returns to her drawing. A short time later, she's interrupted by shouting. When she reaches the house, she finds three men standing before her father and Jushu kneeling on the floor with his hands tied behind his back. Lin says that he won't pay Jushu's gambling debts, despite his son's pleas, and tells the men that they can have him. Shilan begs Balot to do something as Jushu is dragged away, but he doesn't know what he can do. Shilan follows her father into his study.

The house ledgers are open and she can see that they are staggeringly in debt. Her father tells her that he doesn't have the spheres to pay the men and commands her confined to her rooms. Crying, she runs back to the feast hall, asks Balot and Wickham for their daggers their father had given them, then chases after Jushu and the men. She manages to convince the men to take the daggers and her necklace, which they decided not to keep in payment for Jushu's debts. Though they are only worth about half of it. She tells Jushu,

who's been beaten and can't hear well, that Balot and Wickham saved him. She returns to her rooms and waits, hearing the inevitable shouts. Eventually, her father opens the door to her room. She can see the crumpled form of Minara, the serving maid, in the hall. Her arm is broken and she leaves a streak of blood on the wall as she tries to crawl away. Her father tells Shalan that he's found a way to control himself. He just needs to let his anger out and that his anger is created when people disobey him.

He tells her that he would never hurt her and so he wouldn't have to punish others because she defied him again.

Spenser (01:01:36.312)
Wow, there's some heavy stuff in that one. It's interesting that Shalan saves Jushu, but then tells him that his brothers saved him instead of her. Why do you think Shalan did that?

She's trying to save her family. She's trying to keep them all together. They're clearly fractured.

Well, they didn't want to do anything, right? SU was being dragged away. So she wants to redeem them maybe in Jushu's eyes in some way to prevent the fracture that Jonathan just mentioned.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. She's just trying to basically try to repair the damage in her own way. She sees her family falling apart and is afraid and doesn't want that to happen. Yeah, I mean, we see her father trying to gaslight her right here too. Well, is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right, Jonathan. is. He is gaslighting her.

Poor girl.

Jonathan (01:02:26.648)
There's stuff trying.

Jonathan (01:02:35.598)
would be terrible if I had to hurt someone else because of your disobedience. Woman in the background whimpering with her arm cracked and bleeding on the wall. The thing is she has to save her family. That's what she wants. Even in going to find Jasna, who's dead, and steal her soul caster. Don't shake your head at me.

Here's a real life example of gaslighting trying to convince me that Jasne is dead.

no.

Well, how do you know that she's alive?

Are you gonna take it out on your dogs?

Slava (01:03:07.74)
Already did and that's the way I needed them

Bye, cheese.

Well, because we meet Jasna later on in this book and she's really not dead. No matter where she is, maybe she's not in the realm that we currently inhabit with our characters here on Roshar. She's definitely talking.

cognitive realm or the physical realm.

Yeah, she's not in a physical realm. So yeah, by that definition, she's currently at this stage of the bug dead to all people in the real realm.

Jonathan (01:03:37.87)
Thank you. Thank you for finally admitting my correctness.

she's not dead. I refuse to believe that Jasna is dead.

Well, there's going to be times where you think someone else is not dead. And they are 100 % dead.

DED dead. DEE-

D. Dead.

Slava (01:03:55.416)
That's deed.

I said D E D

Yeah, he had an extra E though here.

Yeah, I just wanted to participate in the meme.

Fair enough. This chapter, think, shows Shalan's strength, strength of will, maybe, because she has a really terrible situation dealt to her, and yet she continues to pursue her family. even where, is three years ago as a POV, but even where she's at, you know, in the current stage of things, to me, it's amazing that she's actually not more...

Slava (01:04:14.19)
Yeah.

Spenser (01:04:34.616)
broken than she already is.

Be sure to drop us a rating and help us spread the word if you're enjoying today's sidequest.

I mentioned it a few times where Shalan is a lot stronger than she thinks. The way she reacts to events in her life that forced her to make adjustments or make a difficult decision, even to kill somebody and defending herself and her team as she views them now. She does what she has to do. With Juxu here and other places, even though she might be a little bit more timid around her father.

She is playing a longer game for lack of a term. She's trying to save her family or find more information about the void bringers or get into the shattered planes, whatever is in front of her. Despite being scared, she moves forward with what she has to do.

Do you think that that's just strength inside of her or do think that she gets this strength to endure absolute horrors from her parents or one of them?

Slava (01:05:42.072)
Probably both. don't see it explored in this book, but if I'm to guess, I think it's her. What she's experienced from her parents crafted this person, made her who she is. So if that's the way you want to say it, she got it from her parents because they were complete assholes to her and abusive and one of them tried to kill her and all the subsequent events, specific event, then citing incident, if you will.

made her who she is. If you're asking if she more like her mom or her dad, whose characteristics did she get more of? I don't think that's answered. I haven't seen it yet.

Yeah, fair. Will, one of the things that I enjoy about this specific series in the Cosmere is as we like unravel people's pasts we get snippets of their parents, Kaladin too, we get to go, actually you're kind of like your parents, which is fun in the book and not fun when you look in the mirror. Hashtag all of our parents. Cause I'm sure that I'm not the only one that goes.

Uh, I think I want to change that about myself because of blah blah blah blah whatever your reasons are, you know?

I see why I do the things that I do.

Jonathan (01:06:58.616)
How dare I do the things that I was shown and taught. Anyway.

Chapter 49 Watching the World Transform We have a Shalon POV here. I'll go ahead and read this one. Shalon arrives at an open-air wine house to meet Adolin for lunch. Shalon tries to focus on her purpose of allying with House Kolin, but is distracted by romantic considerations. Shalon and Adolin make small talk, until Shalon is alarmed when Adolin says that a high storm is expected soon, and she considers how exposed their lunch table is.

Adolin explains that there is a new trend to stay outside during the approach of high storms and wait until the last minute to seek shelter. Shalan asks Adolin to talk about his experiences with plateau runs to show interest in him, but ends up derailing the conversation by asking an inappropriate question, which ends up impressing Adolin and making him more open.

Shalan then asks about the Chasmfiends and draws some sketches of chrysalises from memory as Adolin answers and points to one of the drawings to indicate what Chasmfiends look like. Shalan theorizes that the hunts are culling the Chasmfiend population and that a study should be made to verify this and that she would like to be involved in that and that she wants to go on a hunt to gather first-hand information. Adolin tells Shalan about the upcoming summit with the Parshendi

and the political situation in the war camps and Dalinar's visions and plans. In turn, Shalan confides in Adolin about Jasna's research because she's dead and about how the Parshmen are related to the Voidbringers and asks if the Parshmen could be removed from the war camps, but Adolin doesn't think that is possible. As the high storm arrives, the Winehouse area is vacated for the shelters

Spenser (01:08:53.752)
But Shalon stays transfixed as she watches the storm approach despite Adolin's attempts to get her to go indoors. She has a sudden desire to sketch, but Adolin drags her inside before the doors are closed. Adolin says that he will try to get her permission to go on a hunt before they split up into separate rooms divided by gender. Shalon feels satisfied at her progress despite her unorthodox methods and ignores jealous looks from women as she plans how to sneak into Amoram's house.

All right, lots of interesting stuff going on there.

You guys ever watch a storm come in?

Yes.

I have. It's very cool.

Jonathan (01:09:33.143)
It's mesmerizing.

especially being able to look at it come in over Lake Michigan. yeah. That's so, I've watched that one time. It was really cool.

Yeah, it's very cool to nature bluster around.

I can't imagine though watching a high storm roll in. That would be, I think that would be terrifying.

So I think, Spence, you probably know this. I don't know if Slava knows this, but Sanderson grew up in Nebraska, was it? The storms that come in in Nebraska, and this is kind of where he gets some of his inspiration. They're just truly wild.

Spenser (01:10:06.092)
Yeah, I believe so. Yep.

Slava (01:10:15.822)
Yeah, I've seen some. I've been to Nebraska.

Have you? Yeah.

I drove through it for a previous job. had to stay there for like a couple of days and I saw a storm or two. Mesmerizing is the correct word.

Was it, is it what you picture when you read about high storms?

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that it's coming over a field and it's this all encompassing thing and you're made to feel small in comparison to this. It's just a wall. Front coming at you. Yeah. But the way they're described in the book and the way the storms happen in Nebraska, which I drove through actually, they're not the same thing, but the sheer magnitude of it, yes. The actual resulting storm is a little less than the high storm I would say.

Jonathan (01:11:02.616)
Well, we can hang out in one and we'll see. All right. You get to hold onto one sphere. Sorry, wrong book.

I actually picture a high storm more kin to a hurricane coming in. I feel like it would be similar. Yeah. Although the high storm even surprisingly seems even more intense than a hurricane. Be like a category seven hurricane if those existed. Well, as far as I know, it only goes up to five or at least that they have categorized. So what is this inappropriate question that Shalon asks Adolin?

I have no idea.

Spenser (01:11:37.506)
that derails the conversation.

This is a funny, funny part. She asked him, how does he go to the bathroom in shard plate? Because it takes so long to put it on and they're in battle and they're doing battle stuff. And he outright tells her that he just poops in his shard plate, as I called it.

Yeah. That was a fantastic joke. I think, doesn't, isn't Shalan the one who makes that joke in the, in the, in the book?

Slava (01:12:09.098)
I will stick it up. I'll here. Let me bring up the actual chapter.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, she was really proud of herself for making that joke and Adolin got super embarrassed by it.

So where does it go? Yep.

Out your butt.

That is where poop goes.

Jonathan (01:12:32.59)
Well, it's actually where comes from. Anyway.

Hold on. Hold on. So they're talking about shard blades and shard bearers. And this is Adolin talking. Yes, but we are shard bearers. have strength and power granted by the Almighty. It is a great responsibility and it is our duty to use it for the protection of our men. We save hundreds of lives by going across first. Let us lead the army firsthand. Then he paused. So brave, Shalon said.

in what she hoped was a breathy adoring voice. Well, it's the right thing to do, but it is dangerous. That day I leaped across, but my father and I got pushed too far back by the prescendi. He was forced to jump back across and a blow to his leg meant that when he landed, his greave, that's a piece of the armor in the leg, cracked. That made it dangerous for him to jump back again. I was left alone.

while he waited for the bridge to lock down. He paused again. She was probably supposed to ask what happened next. What if you need to poop? She asked instead. Well, I put my back to the chasm and laid about with my sword intending to wait, wait, what did you say? Poop, Shalon said. You're out there in the battlefield encased in metal like a crab in its shell. What do you do if nature calls?

I, Adolin frowned at her. That is not something any woman has ever asked of me before. Yay for originality, Shalan said. Though she blushed as she said it, Jasna would have been displeased. Couldn't Shalan mind her tongue for a single conversation. She's gotten him talking about something he liked. Everything had been going so well. Now this. Well, Adolin said slowly, every battle breaks in the flow.

Slava (01:14:34.166)
and men rotate in and out and out of the front lines. For every five minutes you're fighting, you often have almost as many resting. When a sharbearer pulls back, men inspect his armor for cracks, give him something to drink, and help him with what you just mentioned. It's not something that makes a good topic of conversation brightness. We really don't want to talk about it. That's precisely what makes it a good topic of conversation, she said.

I can find out about wars and shardbearers and the glorious killing in the official accounts, the grimy details, though nobody wants to write those down. Well, it does get grimy, Adolin said with a grimace, taking a drink. You can't, I can't believe I'm saying this to you. You can't really wipe yourself in Shardblade, so someone has to do it for you. Makes me feel like an infant. Then sometimes, and you just don't have time.

And he inspected her, narrowing his eyes. What she said, just trying to determine if you're a wit wearing a wig. That is something he would say to me. So I'm not going to continue, but essentially he poops in his sharp blade. I immensely enjoyed this section of the book. There's these moments in every Sanderson book where, and King does this too, where you have these moments and it's either describing something horrible or.

Hahaha

Slava (01:15:58.958)
destructive, with King sometimes because he writes horror. Or you have these moments in Sanderson, these chunks of exposition or flashbacks and it's all heavy stuff. And then you have this situation where it's kind of, you know, important, right? Cause Shallan and Adolin have to get to know each other and there's this back and forth, it's politics, it's the high court. And all of a sudden there's a poop joke. So I love these moments with any author.

And any author where it has a sense of levity, but it doesn't feel out of place. Cause this is something that Shalon would say. This is some dumb crap that Shalon would say. This is great.

Maybe that's really what was missing from City in the City. Any jokes. It gives a different meaning to breach.

Hoop Chucks.

Slava (01:16:52.046)
And I thought that you thought the whole book was a poop joke.

Not as funny as my comment.

No.

It landed for at least one person in the audience. That's all I care about.

That one person being you

Slava (01:17:08.192)
when I edit this episode. Yeah. Ha! I'm a funny guy.

Chapter 50, Uncut Jums. You guys know that meme?

I had it already in...

I don't think so, you should send it.

Julia Fox, when she's being interviewed, she's like, I was Josh Softee's muse for Uncut Jums. Uncut Jums.

Spenser (01:17:30.84)
Would you, because everyone's like, would you consider yourself Ye's muse? yeah, a little, maybe. What does that even mean? To no one that's ever been, because I remember you were like, this is not the first time that I have. What is a muse? I mean, I was Josh Safdie's muse when he wrote Uncatcha. Right. You know what I mean? Like things like that.

Uncut jams. Uncut jams.

You'll have to fill me in later on that whole thing because I am lost.

It died now, but for like about four months. my goodness. It wasn't, yeah.

years ago.

Jonathan (01:18:07.456)
Have you seen the movie Uncut Gems? It's Adam Sandlage. I think it's his best movie that he's ever done. It's serious. There's no humor. It's about a Jewish guy in New York who runs a gambling ring-ish.

I have not.

Spenser (01:18:23.47)
Okay. I think I remember.

That runs a gambling ring. He's a heavy gambler.

I remember seeing an advertisement for it and being like, wow, an Adam Sandler film, that's serious, that's very interesting, and then I never went and checked it out.

Yeah, that doesn't have Chris Rock or Rob Schneider in it doing something dumb. Right.

It's really good, ends on a powerful moment or two. So she's just saying that she was the muse for the writer or director, I can't remember, of the movie. I was Josh Softy's muse for Uncaught Animals. Uncaught Animals. Uncaught Animals.

Slava (01:19:00.91)
All right. Well, moving on chapter 50 on cod gems, Adam Sandler and Julie Fox are sitting in the shelter listening to the high storm. Adalyn chats with Elliot who vows to win their upcoming shard duel. It was apparently a pooping contest. Sadius sits next to Adalyn and makes him uncomfortable. Sadius, always, sorry to you and the audience. Whenever I say Sadius and then I say Sadius, I'm

mispronounce his name.

Consider him like Heyman, you want to purposefully mispronounce his name. Just, you're doing it on purpose. I always knew you were in it.

So sad ass.

Fantastic.

Slava (01:19:42.136)
Flaunt some emeralds, uncaught jams, that he obtained from an unauthorized hunt.

Slava (01:19:51.658)
and taunts Adolin about the Bridgemen and his renouncing of his title of High Prince of Information. Saddias says he is trying to save their kingdom from Elokar and Dalinar and that Adolin will make a good High Prince and Adolin replies in anger, threatening Saddias who walks away. After the high storm ends, Adolin, along with two Bridgemen guards, leaves the market.

putting Thaddeus out of his mind to think about how much he likes Shalan. Adolin spends some time shopping for jewelry for Shalan before returning to his complex. Adolin finds some bridgemen outside of Dalinor's sitting room and glyphs on the wall that say 32 days. Adolin calls for the area to be restricted and for the Navani to be summoned.

Dalinar determines the glyphs were inscribed with his knife and Navani says they were probably etched by Dalinar himself. Adolin says he is worried because Dalinar is foretelling which is something of the void-bringers, supposedly. They discuss the meaning and decide that they will follow the advice to seek the center of the shattered plains in 32 days during the weeping.

which they think will be easier if their peace summit with the Prescendi is successful. They cover up the glyphs and swear the guards to secrecy. Adolin asks about the Parchman, Bridgman being armed and Delanor said he is allotted out of curiosity.

Spencer, what's that line from later in things, never trust anyone who claims they can tell the future? Is that the line?

Spenser (01:21:43.018)
Yeah, think, yeah, that is the line. I can't remember who said it.

I know who said it, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, never trust anyone who claims to see the future. Yeah, I think is what he

see the

Big shoes to fill.

Spenser (01:22:16.046)
That's don't know. Horn eater speak is very challenging.

I don't think we mentioned that to Slava earlier. Luna Anarchy is wit. Partly why Sigzal has a visceral reaction when Rock is describing the features of Luna Anarchy, one of his gods.

Okay.

Slava (01:22:40.742)
that's something that either I forgot or didn't pick up.

It's not something you'd pick up until like a lot later. So we're giving you a little sprinkle dust.

There's a lot that I, even as we're kind of going through some of this that I see foreshadowing.

yeah, it's so heavy. can slap you in the face like, respect, Sanders.

Yep, yep. So which makes me even more excited and sad that I have to wait for for the next series or next part half of the series Six or seven. I hope he just gets too anxious and just starts writing it anyway

Jonathan (01:23:15.991)
Six years is it?

Jonathan (01:23:22.88)
I think that he's probably already got an outline. But I think that he probably like scraps his outline and then rewrites it and compares them. That'd be like my assessment.

yeah, for sure.

Spenser (01:23:31.758)
That'll be interesting to see the foreshadowing take place in that or wealthy the foreshadowing that happens in the first half. See how some of that comes to light in the rest of the series once he writes it or like what will pick up on you know like oh my goodness that was mentioned in book one and something happens in book 10 that. I think. Lace directly.

What he said, the series that both arcs, the answer is written in In Words of Radiance, I think is what he said. Have you heard that? No?

interesting.

I've heard you say that before.

Yeah, I feel like I've heard that before, but can't say where I've heard that. But I know, well, I can't say anything because, Slaava, you need to hurry up and read these books.

Jonathan (01:24:12.812)
Yeah, I know.

Slava (01:24:16.888)
Well, I'm stuck in this Mistborn book for now.

Awesome, say neater.

You're in the Mistborn series. Era 1 and then you need Era 2.

So I need to the whole era before I go onto Oathbringer. Don't The Aston might be dead by then.

Arrow one, yeah.

Spenser (01:24:33.966)
Uh, I mean, you probably don't have to, but it would be helpful.

He won't know what's going on in terms of the ghost floods. Yes, the title, The End of Stormlight is hidden within words of radiance.

You mentioned this before, Jonathan. I seem to remember.

Hmm, interesting.

The word end is the last word of the first title and the word Radiant is the last word of the second title with Stormlight being the middle word of the first two titles of the first title and the words being the first word of the second title. What is this nonsense? Stupid thing.

Spenser (01:25:15.448)
That's not something he said, is it?

No, no, that's an AI nonsense thing that I'm looking for the actual words of Brandon. I'll find it. You guys keep chirping, keep yapping, as the kids say. But he's like, I'll get the actual reference.

Words of Brandon.

Spenser (01:25:30.67)
So I got a question for you. This isn't directly related necessarily, but Navani is talked about a little bit here. A friend of mine has a theory that she is, what's the word? She's got hidden motives. Curious what your thoughts are on Navani at this point in the series.

She might, I don't know enough to defend her with confidence. Maybe things in Oldbringer and subsequent books are revealed, not in the sense that they reveal her motives per se, but give your friend insight from his perspective that she might not be who she says she is, or she might be doing something on the down lows, they say. But she might, I think she truly loves Dalinar from...

What I can read in the last two books that I read this one in the way of Kings. So I don't see it now, but who knows? You guys tell me, do you agree with him without spoiling it? Can you give me any insight into why he might think that?

Um, he thought that because in the way of King, she just seems to kind of show up out of nowhere. And then all of a sudden, like as soon as, um, I don't know if it was as soon as Dallin our previous wife died. No, cause it would have been a lot later, but basically it just, the timing seemed a little suspicious to him. So when she showed up and how all of a sudden all these offends are starting to take place. And he was thinking that she was just trying to sort of, she noticed that the seat of power was moving from.

colon are to the shattered planes since they've been out there for five years. And that's where all of the know high ranking people and all of that are at. So he just thought it was a little suspicious that she is just trying to somehow maneuver her way into things and maybe seize power or something along those lines. Just a thought.

Slava (01:27:20.193)
Okay.

Slava (01:27:25.036)
But no, can't blame him for thinking that. I just don't see the evidence for it now at this current juncture. mean, but yeah, sure. Maybe. Or maybe she knew he liked her. Maybe she knew this is a way for her not to die. You know, a widow or an old lonely hag. There's a way for her to be still part of the family, be part of close to her son, be with the guy that likes her and she seems to like him back just fine. So.

Who knows?

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, I like that, thanks. Another question. Do you think Dalinar is seeing the future with the visions?

think he's seen a possible future. If he's not seen a future at all, he is provided with a warning about the future. His visions might not necessarily be something that happened in the future. His vision might be a dreamscape of some sort where he's put into events that I think one of them happened in the past. And I think the Storm Father is giving him messages in these visions.

which I just said some of them are from the past. don't right now as it stands where I am in the book series. I don't think necessarily it's a prophecy he's given. He's given a warning, which you could say a prophecy is a warning. I'm thinking this is a warning of impending doom and what he must do to not necessarily escape the doom, but to do in order to face the doom better. I know those

Slava (01:29:06.008)
That was a little clunky, that's how I see what's happening.

interesting.

Speaking of interesting, Jonathan, have you found anything on those words of Brandon?

I did. So this is from back in, where's the date? 2014 at the Words of Radiance Omaha signing. One of the questions that was directed at Sanderson was from the questioner, so do you know quite a bit about what will, what the end of the Stormlight series is going to be? Sanderson responds, I do, I do indeed. I've actually written the epilogue for book five. Book five came out in December of 2025 and

This was written 11 years before that. Maybe you could call it 12 even. Questioner, oh yeah? Just to get into my head, I wrote it out, Peter, my assistant, sent an exclamation point after he saw it appear in the Wiki and stuff. So yes, and actually the ending of the entire series of the 10 books is somewhere in those two books. Just like with Mistborn, it was in the first page. Do you want me say that again, Slava?

Jonathan (01:30:09.912)
Just like with Mistborn, it was in the first page. It's not on the first page, but it is in those two books.

Hmm, interesting. Drop me a link, I'll put that in the description notes too.

Fascinating.

Yeah, I'll drop you a link to the Reddit thing. And then we've got the responses from when someone posted about this. It's probably in the incomprehensible death rattles, most likely. Someone else responded with a few death rattles from Way of Kings in Words of Radiance. This one sounds like Taravangian.

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its own blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw from." And then there's another one that says, Kaladin dreaming when he was the storm in chapter 46, child of Tanavast. There's also words of Brandon stating it's significant that the storm father calls Kaladin that instead of son of honor. There's a theory, this is another Redditor.

Jonathan (01:31:19.906)
that one of the Cosmere subreddits that Hoyd's conversation with Dalinar where he talks about ripping a man apart bloody chunk by bloody chunk and then putting him back together, that would be the end of book 10 with a reunification of Adonelsium. This is my favorite one though. With no parents left to kill, Shalan progresses to her new in-laws, first murdering Navani Dalinar and then settling her sights on the ultimate parent, the father.

Slava (01:31:51.278)
That's f***ing great.

Yeah. That was great.

This is just one last Hoyt quote. If I have to watch the world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen. So who's to say?

interesting.

Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.

Spenser (01:32:23.138)
Well, speaking of parents and their heirs, that leaves us at chapter 51. Adolin joins a planning meeting with Dalinar, Navani, Kahl, Tishav, and Kaladin to discuss tactics for the upcoming summit with the Parshendi. Adolin decides to attend the summit in Dalinar's place to keep his father out of harm's way. Adolin rides Dalinar's Rashadium gallant to keep up pretenses as he travels to the meeting with Parshendi.

After Adolin arrives at the designated plateau, the Parshendi arrive as well. Adolin and his scribe Brightness and Adara meet alone with Eshenai. Adolin says they are there to discuss terms of Parshendi surrender, but Eshenai laughs and says things changed since she spoke with Adolin previously. Adolin senses a different demeanor to Eshenai who says there will be peace only when one the sides is wiped out and that she only appeared to see Dalinar in person.

Adolin asks why they killed Gavilar and she replies because he revealed his plans to return the Parshendi gods and then she leaves. Adolin returns to the war camps with his entourage. Adolin broods that he should have allowed Dalinar to go instead. The Dalinar replies that Adolin did well and that now they can battle the Parshendi with a clear conscience. Dalinar reveals a battle plan to take as many soldiers and high princes as possible to the center of the Shattered Plains during the weeping to bring an end to the war.

Dalinar implores Adolin to fight more duels and says he will try to convince neutral high princes to join the expedition.

Gal and R are changing their ways. Sticking with the duels. It's good decision. Good decision indeed.

Slava (01:33:58.082)
Something that keeps rotating in my head, and I think this was last episode, Jonathan, or the one before, but I'm pretty sure it was the last episode, where the Preshendi killed the king because, killed Gavilar, because he wanted to bring back the gods, which is this horrible, horrible thing in their mind. And here, in this book, in the Eshenai chapters and flashbacks and interludes, well, not flashbacks, interludes and chapters of Eshenai, she is,

bringing back the gods. She is taking on war form, which will bring back the gods in order to defeat the Alethic Kingdom. So it seems she's talking on both sides of her mouth or something has changed where now the gods are a necessary evil or am I misreading this thing completely?

No, I mean people flip-flop, right? People and Parshendi flip-flop.

Of course.

Especially the Prescendi. You know them.

Jonathan (01:34:59.97)
Tell me you're racist without telling me you're racist.

Only against the percent.

Kidding

you

Don't

Jonathan (01:35:09.39)
I want to make more jokes, but I also don't want this flagged for NFSW NSFW, yeah. Not safe for work.

Well now I'm curious.

I'll tell you when you're older.

So there's literally a sex joke that you're making or going to make, was about to make about the preshendi and their forms and their songs. Yeah, that was, yeah. Their forms, now get, okay, back to serious. Their forms and their speech, I find fascinating. And we briefly touched on this also last episode. So Spence, since you're here, wax philosophical or wax something else about.

Mateform.

Slava (01:35:51.736)
the forms, what was your response when you first read these chapters that they have different forms for mating, for working, et cetera, et cetera. And then they speak essentially in like a sing song. They speak in notes and musical notes.

Well now I'm distracted because Jonathan's just throwing a bat around his house so I'm not sure what that's

all about. He was first rubbing his face with it.

It's also black, just like my blood.

If you guys keep talking like that, I'm gonna have to hurt someone else.

Spenser (01:36:25.512)
so sorry.

He's throwing it at his tenants like a good light, like, like a, wow. Like a good bright Lord.

There we go.

Perfect. So Slava, to answer your question, I was intrigued by the forms that the Parsendi have. I've never seen another author write something like that, so it was very unique character or people group to write about. I think even after book five, there's still not a whole lot we know about the forms and we get to see them like change forms, but

We still don't know the process and how all of that works. So it's very, yeah, very intriguing to me. I think as far as the abilities or the different types of forms that allow you to do different things is interesting. It's almost like they say in the books that you don't become a different person, but that your mind or that their mind works differently.

Spenser (01:37:34.867)
I don't know, to me it's almost hard to even imagine because of our own context and there's nothing like it in the real world to kind of relate it to.

It's like a click track that never stops. Because they're always like, hear the songs, even if they're far away from each other. It's just like they're all tied to one big click track.

Yeah, guess I was, I mean, yeah, that too. I think I was going off like the form changing as far as like, you know, when they're in work form, are, their mind is only geared toward whatever their job is. Or when they're in war form, you know, they're only thinking about war and fighting and their bodies adapt to that as well and change. Yeah, it's a very, very unique people group.

I was-

Spenser (01:38:23.304)
I really hope we get to know more about them in the next series of books that he writes. Yeah, what do you think about it?

thought like you, I've never seen this in literature. I've never really seen this in the real world. Although there are tribes, and this is somewhere from the recluses of my brain. There are tribes out there that do incorporate song a lot into their storytelling or their narratives, right? It's not analogous. It's very adjacent maybe to this.

But this is completely unique to me. First of all, because I haven't read a lot of fantasy as the audience and you guys know, I've never seen this in any other books that could have been about a fantastical world or outside of general fantasy. I have never seen this in other worlds and other genres where people group were presented. So to me, it was very interesting more so in this book because we get a lot more of it with the Eshenai chapters and interludes and then

Kaladin hanging out with some of the work for him, Prashendi, as they are broken from their daily rituals and they're escaping. Maybe that's in the next book. All the books are blending together because I did read a good portion of next book. But when Kaladin is hanging out with the Prashendi, we get the sense that they're slowly shedding work for him. They start to think more and understand more, but you get a sense that their brains.

or their minds are muted a little bit.

Spenser (01:40:01.622)
Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan, you wanna hop in on this little, thread here?

think you guys covered it for the most part. I like the uniqueness. I did think about some of the tribes like Slava mentioned. There's one story I read about previously where when people cause ruckus or make a mistake in their tribal society, they would bring that person back to the center and instead of like reprimanding them or scolding them, they would sing the song that was sung at their birth to help remind them of their identity. So love the uniqueness, love the parshendi.

Love the forms. I'm waiting though for two things. I'm waiting for a world hopper from the Parshani to emerge. And I'm also waiting for a scholar from the Parshani to emerge who catalogs their information because they're an oral people group. So as a Cosmerian, those are the things that I'm waiting for.

So are you waiting for a parshendi to become a worldhopper? that what you're saying? Okay.

Yeah, I think so. And then maybe one to become like Chris.

Spenser (01:41:00.92)
Sure, yeah.

Let's move on because we've got a few more chapters to cover. We are now at 52 into the sky and we see a lot of back and forth POVs in this chapter. So Caledon walk into the Shattered Plains at night to the plateau. He encounters Wit and Caledon verifies that no one can see him and steps off the plateau into the chasm. Shalon disguised as a messenger boy enters Amorim's manor after passing a checkpoint.

guarded by Hav, Shana waits for a maid and a man to leave the manor grounds, then changes her clothing again to disguise herself as the maid and enters the manor. You go back to Kaladin, after landing in the bottom, he runs through the chasm with Sil alongside him. He tries to jump on the wall, but fails and lands in the ground. Sil offers some advice and Kaladin agrees that he has to practice to be able to fight

and Lash as well as Zeth. Back to Shalon. Shalon enters the kitchen trying to imitate the maid's mannerisms. The cook addresses her and gives her tasks to do and Shalon just nods without speaking so as to not blow her cover. Shalon almost runs into Amram who she thought wasn't going to be home and panics. She follows Amram towards the room she wants to enter and confronts him saying that a messenger

is waiting outside to give him a message, and he leaves to investigate. Shalan asks Pattern to pick the lock, and she enters the shuttered room which turns out to be filled with maps. Back to Kaladin, Kaladin realizes that he has to get over his fear of injury and is able to jump on the wall without stumbling or falling. Back with Shalan, she asks Pattern to act as a lookout while she peruses the maps

Slava (01:42:58.902)
and predictions for high storms. She takes memories of the maps which focus on the shattered plains and are more detailed than any she seen before. She also decipher the handwritten stormwarden glyphs though she is puzzled by them as they aren't meant to form sentences. And she realizes that Amoram intends to find out from the proscenity how to return the Voidbringers

and to reach the center of the Shattered Plains before Dalinar's army. She theorizes that Jasna, the Ghost Bloods, and Amoram are all interested in the same things. She also realizes that she has to avoid alerting Amoram that his private room was infiltrated. Kaladin becomes more comfortable in jumping between the ground and the walls and tells Sil that everything about himself changed to allow this.

We're back with Shalan who returns to the kitchen disguised as Amram using pattern to imitate the Bright Lord's voice. She tells the cook that Telesh was on a secret mission for Amram and that the cook is to pretend she knows nothing of where Telesh was that evening and not to mention this conversation to Amram at any point. Shalan leaves the manor and changes her guise back to that of the messenger boy and returns to the front of the building as Hav

and Amram walk up. She says she has a message from Shalan D'var to request a time to sketch his sharp blade to which Amram acquiesces. Amram summons the sharp blade and Shalan realizes that it used to belong to her brother Haloran. Kaladin runs along the walls and leaps chasms and plateaus, draining all his gems glowing with Stormlight. Sil follows him along with dozens of Windspren.

Back to Shalan, she requests the background of the Sharblade and Amram lies and says he got it from a young Vaiden man who tried to assassinate him and she thinks that Amram killed Halloran. She then takes her leave realizing that Halloran was caught up in the conspiracy. She cries not knowing for sure her brother is dead. We are left with Kaladin who lashes himself over the plateaus and hovers in place.

Slava (01:45:25.142)
noticing a pattern in the plains beneath him. As he stays in the same place, the windspren leave him. Kalden asks if Syl was with him as a child and she says yes and no. Kalden says that all his skill was due to her, but she says that it was due to both of them, which Kalden accepts. Syl says that Seth's weapon is special and was made to give abilities to men in the same way their bond does.

Kaladin asks if a new unstained blade can be forged and Syl says yes, but she doesn't know how. Syl confronts Kaladin on informing Dalinar about Moash's patriot friend and Kal replies that he wants to consider it more. He walks towards Sadies's camp and contemplates killing Amoram for his role in Tien's death, but Syl gets him to reconsider in light of his accomplishments that evening.

Boo.

Slava (01:46:24.194)
Returning to his barracks, finds Shen there, who says that he has to leave immediately and Calden permits it, saying he is a free man. Shen says his real name is Rollin and that he thinks Calden is a good man. A lot happening here.

Yes.

very much. Slava, what was your reaction to Kaladin learning how to walk on walls essentially?

I saw it as the natural progression of him coming to terms with who he is. And despite his reluctance, he seems to, in small strides, seems to be accepting that he needs to excel in his new abilities as a Radiant in order to fulfill his mission to Dalinar. He needs to defend Dalinar, he needs to defend the King, his family. The way to do that.

in light of Zeth and his abilities, which were revealed to Calvin for the first time. He needs to do these things. And I think, and I don't want to say this, no, and then at the book. I think he also sees this as a way to maybe turn Moash's desires to, you know, in a different way. I think he wants to do the best he can, although he's kind of failing.

Slava (01:47:49.23)
We're not turning in Moash and we see that what happens later on in these chapters. So I think he's growing into himself for like better term here. He makes a couple of mistakes in attempting to do so. That's what I think has happened with Kaladin. Gassil here seems to be reacting well to him, but she also is like, Hey, remember your duty is to protect. What are you going to do about Moash?

caught between a rock and a hard place, or a high storm and a rock.

All right, chasm in a chill.

You mean a chasm and a chasm fiend? Sure. I wouldn't... I don't think we ever see a chull and a chasm fiend. Sorry. Yeah. Anyway.

We never see a troll in the chasm.

Jonathan (01:48:38.094)
Thank you, thank you. That's what I've been trying to say.

So caught in between a rock and a fiend.

Yes.

Slavs over there just bumping chulls. I can't wait to see where this goes next.

Speaking of bumping shells.

Spenser (01:48:53.324)
I know I was like I'm so curious

That's not a segue actually, but what's more interesting for me is Shallan here finding out that possibly her brother is dead and he is. So her assumptions are correct. the fact that, fact that, the fact that she thinks now Amoram and not Kaladin, who's the true murderer of her brother. I thought that was, I mean, we've said it before. We all like Sanderson.

But this is just prime example of how well he sets up conflict and tension. This is great. Cause at some point, Kaladin is going to have to tell her and she's going to have to deal with it. And she kind of sort of has some feelings for Kaladin. I wouldn't call them romantic at this point, but she has some sort of affections for him, given the fact that they're stuck together later on in the chasm and

given the fact that they're both radiant, which is explored and exposed slowly, but all those things. here, whenever here happens, she actually finds out that Kelden is the one who killed her brother. It's great set up for tension. I love it.

Well, and the thing is, he doesn't know that he killed her brother.

Slava (01:50:16.694)
And that too. Exactly.

So he just knows that he killed someone, doesn't know who that someone is necessarily.

Yeah.

and he was just some random Bright Lord.

Well, who wants to stay in the next chapter?

Spenser (01:50:33.144)
Jonathan, you haven't read in a little bit. You want to take this one?

Let's go. It's my perfect chapter. For me, perfection.

Perfection.

Spenser (01:50:42.348)
Okay, nevermind, I'll take this one.

Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Spencer. He'll read the next one. Vail's lesson.

Adolin duels, I want to say a lot. Elit, thank you. Adolin duels Elit with precision, realizing that his previous tactics don't persuade anyone into accepting his challenges. Adolin wears down Elit with small strikes to his armor, causing many small cracks until Elit's armor eventually is drained of Stormlight and he is unable to move. Adolin shoves Elit, who falls to the ground and is awarded judgment.

Adolin retires to his staging room where Rinaaren and Navani wait. Shalan shows up to congratulate him. Navani compliments Shalan and leaves before Shalan can say anything. And Adolin says to give her time to grieve because Jasna's dead. Shalan says that she wants to have dinner and a walk with Adolin the next day and says that her research says that if Adolin wins his next bout in a spectacular fashion, it could help him with his duels. Rellis Ruthar

storms into the room, demanding the bout be nullified, but High Judge Isto refuses. Aveline offers to wager six shards and fight Rellis alongside whoever Rellis chooses, and Rellis accepts to the duel in two days. Shalan explains her plan to Aveline.

Slava (01:52:10.604)
Now, it's Gaston, the one who expires from the beginning of this book.

Yeah, yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And this is where tension increases yet again. No sharding in this shard plate.

I love the way these duels are set up by Sanderson. What do you love about them? Well, one could write them in, here's a duel and here's a duel. He loses, he wins. Here's another duel. But there is so much more going on that changes some of the Bright Lord's views of Adolin and reinforces some of the negative views and others. Shalon's involved and we all know Shalon is kind of doing three things at once here.

about them.

Slava (01:52:53.71)
Um, she's trying to fulfill Jasna's desire to find out who the void bringers are or kind of know that, but when they're coming, how to stop it. Her other scholarship, Adeline is her betrothed and then the ghost bloods. So there's these storylines within storylines that are all merging together and yet they're not cliche. It's not over the top. It just creates a good consistent, you know, tension.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what I love about.

Bingo Bango.

I like how Adolin fights differently in each duel. In one, strikes the shard plate that the other guy's wearing only to a point where it finally doesn't crack until the end. And then in other fights, he just completely badgers the guy and wins the fight in like 30 seconds. And he's doing all of this to goad.

Spenser (01:53:56.052)
Yeah, to goad Sadius hopefully into a fight. I just like to see Adolin in his element, I guess. And it actually does showcase how good of a swordsman he is too. And he's also trying to prove that to everybody else, I think, because everyone still sees him, I think, as the son of the Blackthorn. And I think he wants to prove himself that he is more than that.

Perhaps even more honor-able. Because he's living in his shadow. No, that didn't. All right, cool. Awesome, guys. Yep, cool. Great, great, great.

yes.

Slava (01:54:30.616)
Well, you want to take the next one for us Spencer? Bill's lesson.

Yeah, Chapter 54, Vale's Lesson. Shalon travels in her guise as Vale to a meeting with the Ghost Bloods in the Unclaimed Hills, following a map sent via Span Read. Meraise quizzes Shalon on the uses of a Parshendi blowgun, and her answers make Meraise realize she is a scholar. Meraise asks Shalon why Tin failed at her mission, and is surprised to learn that she succeeded instead as Shalon provides him with reproductions of the locked room and maps.

Shalon accidentally reveals her sketching ability, then is forced to demonstrate it. Meraise offers Shalon a job and realizes that she killed Tin. Meraise cautions Shalon that the Ghost Bloods are protective of each other and have a greater purpose, and that she would be assigned another mission, and Shalon leaves. When she is out of sight of the Ghost Bloods, she hides inside an illusionary rock. She tells Pattern to imitate her to tell the carriage to return to the war camps.

As she hides, she hears Marey's give instructions to someone to bring Shalon's sketches to Thidakar. Her illusion wears off after several hours, and she walks back to the war camps, on the way encountering her burned out carriage wrecked with all the Parshmen and the driver killed, which upsets Shalon greatly. Shalon and Pattern discuss uses of her light-weaving ability.

this thidacarc fellow.

Spenser (01:55:54.454)
Yeah, so was gonna ask you, have we encountered him before?

Yeah, we kind of did because when Gavilar was killed, told Seth, tell Thedekar he was too late. he's, yeah, so he's somehow involved.

That was going to be the point that I was going to reference in the prologue.

Yeah, I believe that's the only spot that he's mentioned in the Way of Kings. So a very mysterious character at this point who appears to be some sort of leader or boss maybe to Meraise at this point.

Let's talk about Mare's for a second. What's your take? What's your Mare's take? Why don't you Mare's your hand and tell me? Thanks Spencer.

Spenser (01:56:38.594)
You're welcome. got one there. You got one to land.

Well, he's a member of the Ghost Bloods.

He raised his hand.

I that.

You Slava. Anyway, be subconscious. I control you. He's a member of the Ghost Bloods. That's correct. Mareys is a member of the Ghost Bloods.

Slava (01:56:56.984)
He is scarred. He has a lot of scars. He's calm in his speech. It's very determined, I would say. He has a particular way of doing things. He figures out who Shalon is. Well, he of doesn't figure out who Shalon is right away, but he figures out that she killed Tin. He figures out that she's playing another game.

Fair enough. you think that Marais wants Shalon dead?

it kind of seems that way with the burning of her carriage. Is he somebody else? Is Marais just a cover?

I mean, I'm pretty sure that's his fault. That's real name. As far as I can recall. Maybe he has a different name and I just forgot.

Raffo.

Slava (01:57:36.886)
Maybe he uses more than one name.

Clearly I've forgotten, so I'm not the person to it.

I think I Don't remember at this point in the story Where we find out but I think you know, I don't remember now shoot I Don't I think that's a title but I'm not positive or like a name that he chooses for himself Maybe not necessarily a title, but maybe not his original name either. Mmm,

Going back to Thedekar, I'm on Coppermind and it says when Kaladin killed Helleran D'var in Amram's army, Amaran thought that Thedekar and the Ghost Bloods were behind the attack. He said that the Ghost Bloods were growing more bold. Amaran said that back in the Way of Kings.

Okay.

Jonathan (01:58:28.649)
alright, I missed that.

That's all this says here on Thetakar's wiki page. There's nothing other than connections to Way of Kings and one connection to Rhythm of War, which I'm not even reading. I'm ignoring them. I'm not scrolling that far on purpose, but

Yeah. Okay, so there is another mention of Thidakar in the Way of Kings that I, yeah, apparently forgot about as well.

Two, two according to this Wiki page here, well, Coppermind Wiki page here, there's two mentions of him in Way of Kings and one in Rhythm of War, which as I said, I'm not even looking at that portion.

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (01:59:07.118)
That's right, better not. The rules continue of the game. The rules of the game continue.

So I'll take this one. Chapter 55, the rules of the game. Kaladin guards Adolin as they get a carriage to bring them to Sabriel's war camp to meet Shalon. Kaladin recognizes Wit as the carriage driver and is surprised. I love this part. Wit berates Kaladin for abandoning his flute and mocks his lack of eloquent retorts to Wit's insults.

Wit implies that he knows of Kaladin's abilities and asks Kaladin to tell him a story as they ride. When they stop to pick up Shalan, Adolin realizes Wit is the driver and exclaims as much. Shalan also exclaims upon seeing Wit and hugs him, which surprises Adolin. Kaladin joins the two in the carriage to better watch Shalan and Adolin and Shalan flirt. They decide to go to see a menagerie. Shalan

reads an account of a high prince named Yennev who was killed in a duel by Sadeus by the right of challenge and King's boon because Yennev opposed Gavilar's unification campaign. Chalon says that Adalin can try to invoke this boon to challenge Sadeus if he wins his upcoming duel spectacularly. Chalon surmises that his boon could help him deal with Amoram.

Kaladin decides that Shalan is not a danger to Adolin and that Adolin is fallen for her. They arrive at the menagerie and discover Wit has already departed. admonishes Kaladin for his sour mood as they walk through the menagerie. Shalan draws sketches of the various animals and chats with Adolin. Sil asks Kaladin if he is almost ready and he replies yes. Amram and Dalinar appear at the menagerie. Amram

Slava (02:01:05.642)
is wearing a distinctive cloak and Dallinor announces that he is refounding the Night's Radiant and that Amoram is their leader. Dun dun dun.

Dun dun dun. All right, so this King's boon, what do we think of that? On the way to the duel. When you read this, right, I know you finished the book. Did you think that Aelin was gonna get to use a boon to get Saddias nailed down?

No, I don't think so. I don't remember thinking that. I remember thinking that Saddius is a snake and he's going to try to prolong his duel with Adolin or attempt to use others to get Adolin killed. He was going to play his politic in games. That's what I thought was going to happen.

Mmm.

Kind of did. Mm-hmm. Bollock ticking.

Slava (02:01:49.538)
Yeah, right up until he gets stabbed in the face.

Hey, spoilers.

Don't spoil her, she's Shalon.

Alright.

Not as

Jonathan (02:02:01.416)
No mating.

That was a white spine uncaged commenter.

Yeah, that's lofty. Goodness. A white spine? You don't know what a white spine is?

Whatever that.

Slava (02:02:13.538)
It's an animal.

Yes, Slava. Yes. That's correct.

and it's uncaged.

Wow. What other, just keep it coming, man. This is the best.

on fire right now.

Slava (02:02:31.758)
Well, they are at a menagerie, so... Spines abound.

True.

It would be so difficult to watch the guy who killed your men wearing the cloak of the thing that you are getting powers in and knowing that that guy's going to be your boss again. That would suck. That would suck so much.

Yeah, honestly, surprising that Kaladin didn't... Yeah, it just didn't all of a sudden just go up to him and try to kill him. Yeah, honestly, think though too it shows his... words. It shows, yes, words of radiance. It shows his growing trust, I think, in Dalinar though too. To know like, yeah, Dalinar still doesn't know about Amoram, still thinks that he's a good guy. Obviously, Kaladin sees that and...

Kill Amoram

Jonathan (02:03:05.655)
of radiance.

Spenser (02:03:21.302)
is very upset about it, but he also shows restraint in knowing, hopefully, that Dalinar will, has at least taken Kaladin's thoughts under advisement and is going to look into it. So yeah, kudos to Kaladin at this point for not just outright trying to kill a guy.

Show some restraint. Yes. But I think Kalan is also smart enough that to kill him right here in front of everybody, although he missteps. If have to use a mild term where he challenges Amoram to a duel in later chapters, but at least here he has restraint for what it's worth.

Yeah, for what it's worth.

it's worth.

Well, shall we? Yes. To this last chapter. All right, here we go. 56, White Spine Uncaged. Kaladin and Sigzal discuss Amoram's lack of surge binding ability as they arrive at the dueling arena. With the entire Kolen household in attendance, Kaladin brings every guard that he could. Kaladin feels anger that Amoram is honored by his appointment by Dalinar.

Jonathan (02:04:13.614)
100%. I'm so excited for this.

Spenser (02:04:35.968)
after what Kaladin told Dalinar about Amoram and decides that he has to do something about it if Dalinar won't. Sig-Zil suggests that Kaladin reveal his powers and join Dalinar's knights, but Kaladin ignores this and sends Sig-Zil to pass his orders to the guards. Kaladin orders Moash to lead a patrol duty the next day so that he is away when Graves is dealt with. Adolin speaks with his shardblade

to prepare for his duel. He burns a glyph ward painted by Shalon and tells Navani to give her a chance. They discuss the plan regarding the boon and some changes to the terms of the duel. They review Adolin's preparations and Adolin gets anxious when he realizes he doesn't have his mother's bracelet as a good luck charm. Adolin enters the dueling arena and waves to Shalon and checks to see if Sadius is there. His opponents enter the arena and he is shocked that there are four instead of two like he expected.

Dalinar questions Sadius about what is happening and Sadius proclaims ignorance until Elokar questions him. Sadius replies that since Adolin wasn't specific enough when naming the terms of the duel that he would be subject to a full disadvantaged duel. Dalinar tells Elokar that Adolin would have to forfeit but Elokar dissuades him and the duel begins. Adolin curses himself as he realizes his mistake in the way he eschewed and accepted the duel challenge.

He realizes the four opponents include Rellis, Elit, Abra Badar, and Yakimov. Adolin puts his back to a wall so he doesn't get surrounded, and Zahel shouts advice to him to try to fight them one at a time. Adolin takes an offensive approach and does well until Yakimov is able to surprise him with a hammer blow. Adolin tries to yield, but in the chaos of the duel is ignored, and he realizes that he might be severely injured.

Dalinar realizes that Adolin can have two fellow duelists under the terms of the challenge and asks for Elikar's shardblade, but the king refuses since that would endanger Dalinar. Sadius taunts Dalinar for not going into the arena to help Adolin. Dalinar watches, alarmed, as Renarin, without shardplate, goes to help his brother. Adolin battles on and tries to get some breathing room so that he can signal to the judge to yield, but Rellis threatens to have Renarin severely injured or killed.

Spenser (02:07:01.536)
if Adolin doesn't keep fighting and accept punishment for what he did to Eelit. Adolin reluctantly agrees but berates his supposed friend Yakimov. Dalinar implores Isto to end the fight, then says he will end it since she ignores him, but she replies that her authority supersedes him in the arena. Renarin fights Abrabadar, but he is hopelessly outclassed. Abraadar seems content to only stop Renarin reaching Adolin and does not fight to Mame as the other three gang up on Adolin.

and one of Adolin's shoulder segment breaks. Dalinar addresses the crowd, asking for someone to aid his sons. He looks at Amoram, who averts his eyes. Kaladin then volunteers to aid them, telling Dalinar to take care of his men if it goes poorly. And then he jumps into the arena with his spear, as he says, honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do.

Hot damn, Hot damn.

chills when reading that scene.

It's every time and it like ends the chapter there and you're just like, wait, but wait, what's going to happen? What's going to happen?

Spenser (02:08:12.752)
Exactly. I need to know more.

Yeah. Oh, all right, Slava, give us a low down. was your, walk us through the emotional journey that the Slava went through.

Yeah, for sure. Attention continues. You get glimpses into the sliminess that is Sadius. You see the cowardice of Amram and Dalinar. You see how he's distraught because his son might be killed. You see his other son who is not as skilled as Adolin go in there. Nobody seems to be realizing this is a setup and whether they're following the rules or not.

there seems to be apathy towards what really is going on. And the only guy that has the balls to do what is right in this situation is Caledon.

What was your response when he said that first time reading it? Like, chapter ends, he walks up, is dead, but I'll see what I can do.

Slava (02:09:16.322)
That's typical Kaladin-ism because he believes that. But he also believes strongly that he must fulfill his oath despite the misstep that was mentioned earlier and what we'll see here in the next few episodes. He believes that he must do what is right. This is him being honorable. Even though he believes because of folks like Amoram that honor is dead. True.

True, true. man. So good. So good.

Well, I have something, I think it's just too far a little further ahead in the book or books about honor being dead. So I don't think I really want to mention that, but, although I kind of did. Yeah. I don't know what else I have to say other than this was such a great scene. Yeah. I really feel for Dalinar here as he is basically tied. His hands are tied, you know, metaphorically, he can't really do anything about.

the fight he doesn't have his own blade and Elokar won't give him his, you know, the king's blade. And then he looks over at Amoram to see Amoram help me out here. And Amoram just looks away. yeah. I don't think it's Amoram being a coward. It's Amoram. Well, I mean, I guess maybe that's part of it.

I he's being a coward. I feel like he's being a coward. He's siding with Sadius.

Spenser (02:10:40.814)
Well, that's what I'm saying. He's more siding with Sadius, I think, than being a coward because, I don't know, maybe he feels like Sadius has more influence in the war camps or something. But I think that is Dalinar's first taste of who Amoram really is. Reading that, I knew Amoram wasn't going to hop in and help, but just seeing it crush Dalinar, man, that was...

And at the same time, see Kaladin step up. Yeah. Kaladin Goggins.

Yeah.

I think it's Amram Goggins.

MRM wishes he was like David Goggins.

Jonathan (02:11:16.556)
No, no.

Jonathan (02:11:22.443)
He pretends.

Yeah, have you seen the meme, or it's more of a gif, think, where, I can't remember, it's from a TV show, one of the characters, maybe it's from Parks and Rec, I take the low road. Oh shoot, I'll have to find that meme, it's so funny. It's like basically Amoram saying he tells everyone to take the high road so there's more room for him on the low road or something like that.

No, I haven't seen that.

That sounds great though. I love that.

to see if I can find it. Okay.

Jonathan (02:11:57.07)
You look that up real quick and then I know I said we'd end on 56. I thought 56 was 57. So we're just going to do it real quick. To kill the wind. Shalon wonders why Adolin doesn't surrender since he is outmatched and berates herself for not seeing the loophole and failing her betrothed. She briefly considers jumping into the arena, but discards that idea. She tells Pattern to try and distract Abra Badar to help Renarin. She watches as Kaladin joins the fight. Kaladin tells Silfrenna that this

better and differently than when he saved Amoram. And Silfrenas says that it will. Reassuring, I think. Rellus ignores Kaladin and pays the price as he gets stabbed in a crack in his army. Reading is hard right now. Rellus ignores Kaladin and pays the price as he gets stabbed in a crack in his armor. Kaladin guards Adolin's back and says that

Adolin will need to break their foes shardplate for him. Adolin says for Kaladin to distract one foe and to watch out for R'Nar while he fights the other two and Kaladin agrees. Kaladin draws Rellis attention. Well, Adolin fights Elit and Yakumov. Rellis fights Kaladin for a short time, but then goes back to fight Adolin who skillfully dueling his two foes. So Kaladin uses a lashing enhanced kick to knock Rellis down.

breaking his own legs in the process. Though he is able to heal them, Kaladin sees that he cracked some of Rela's shards. Adolin's own armor is mostly cracked, but he gets a strong blow on Elit and cracks his chest plate, slowing Elit greatly. Kaladin sees Abberbadar waving his blade at the ground, and Silphrena exclaims about something mysterious and flies over to Rhaenarion. Kaladin uses his broken spear to strike Elit

in his exposed armor and forces him to yield. The remaining three opponents gather to battle Adolin. Woof, things are heating up here guys. Leaving Renarin alone to sit in the sand, Kaladin demands Elit's helmet and is given it. He puts it on his hand as an armored glove and arms himself with a knife to help Adolin. Kaladin tricks Rellis into backing away and then goes to help Adolin. Rellis and Yakumov both try to attack Kaladin

Jonathan (02:14:23.682)
but with Silfrenna circling around him and he dodges their shard blades or blocks them with the helm until it runs out of Stormlight. Realizing the helm drained it from him, Kaladin is backed against the wall, but Aedolin appears and grapples Yakimov to the ground and Kaladin sees Abrabadar was just defeated. Rellis, the last man standing, rushes toward Rhaenarun and Kaladin follows, yelling at Rhaenarun to yield, but he only dismisses his blade and does nothing.

Renarin, come on, man. Rellis raises his blade toward Renarin, but is reluctant to kill him. When Kaladin draws close, Rellis turns to swing at Kaladin. In desperation, Kaladin successfully performs the last clap, catching the blade. He hears a scream that sounds like Silphrena. Rellis, too, hears the screams and drops the blade, fleeing the arena, forfeiting the duel. Sorry, I just can't.

Probably Yakimov yells at Adolin to fight him as he is held down and Kaladin walks up to him with a knife and places it in the crack in his armor and tells him to yield or else Yakimov yields and Adolin is declared victor Adolin laughs joyously at the spoils he won Sorry and Adolin and and asks Kaladin to help him remove his drained armor

his sharp blade.

Jonathan (02:15:51.106)
Finally, Elikar announces how impressed he is by Adolin and offers him a boon. Kaladin notices Saddias trying to leave the arena, but before he does, Adolin demands the right to duel Saddias. Kaladin immediately demands a challenge for Amram for his crimes of murder and obstruction of justice, causing Amram to cower. Adolin groans and the crowd goes silent. Elikar orders Kaladin be arrested.

great scene.

Even just rereading the summary, I've had to pause a few times because I'm like, it's just so good.

I might just have to like after this episode go and reread that scene or that chapter just how good it was. my goodness. The last clap though that Kaladin does with the shard blade. So cool.

just the best. So I have a theory, why I pushed us to get to this point in this episode. I theorize that, and I'd have to reread the whole thing, but that I would imagine that the last clap performed by Dalinar with Zeth was all skill. But I think that with Kaladin, it was kind of what we see in the end of Way of Kings where he can attach.

Jonathan (02:17:11.202)
you know, or can lash things. Now I know that it said that the, the, the stormlight was used up, but I'm going to reference, I can't cause he hasn't read Mistborn. I just, I think that the last clap may have had influences from investiture. That's my theory. Can't prove it. Just a theory. It's impressive either way.

Yeah, either way it's super impressive, but I think it's harder to use Stormlight on Shardblades because it is... Well, can't really say anything. Basically because of what it is, he can't use Stormlight as much on it. Like it's harder to affect it than, say...

that's fair.

Bye!

Jonathan (02:17:56.694)
Sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's fair. All right. Theory dismissed. Good job. Slava, again, walk us through the emotional journey here for you.

Same thing as the previous chapter because I read him in chunks, right? So it's not like I stopped at 56. Sure. think anybody did, but I'm just saying. I don't think you can. Right. So from 56 right into 57, this fight ensues. All this stuff is going on. I'm not thinking for one second that Adolin's going to get hurt or is going to lose. I kind of feel that, know, Kaladin is going to be a huge help.

I don't think Kaladin is going to get hurt. Nevertheless, the tension, the way it's written, it's a great action scene and it ends with another great setup for the next thing that's going to happen with Kaladin going, Hey, Amram, come here. We got some unfinished business. Yeah. He does it in a moment of exultation and he sees that Adolin.

Yeah, the shock.

Slava (02:19:06.066)
is calling out Saddius because this is my chance. I just helped this guy. We're both going to kill some, you know, some douchebags. Doesn't really work out that way. That's all I got, man. I was on the edge of my seat, literally in a bus, sitting up straight, waiting for the end of this fight because I knew, I knew, well, I felt, I believed that they were going to win, but in the midst of it, I was, I was hooked. I was on edge of my seat watching this unfold. It was a great, great scene.

You didn't even notice the homeless person drooling on your shoulder. That's how good-

I don't take that bus.

Jonathan (02:19:42.711)
That's not what some of the last episodes, not even like 20 episodes ago when you were talking about the very specific homeless woman that you'd see regularly. Anyway.

Yeah. And I've since come to believe she's not homeless. She just has some sort of mental disorder. She's very particular in how she stands, how she sits. She has these ticks and manner and like funny mannerisms, but she's never disheveled or like dirty or smelly. Like you would think maybe a homeless person would be right. But she always has like two or three bags of her and just acts strangely on the bus.

Fair enough.

I love the title of this chapter too because it's called To Kill the Wind and Kaladin will claim that the wind and the skies are his and he fights as if he is the wind in this chapter and so I don't know it's just like a super cool foreshadow as well as what's currently happening.

Yeah, so good. If you haven't read it, go back and read this chapter, these two chapters back to back. It's solid. But anyway, a little bit of a longer episode today. Thank you for doing a host takeover, Spencer. You're welcome. Always a pleasure to have you on.

Slava (02:20:50.414)
Woo.

Spenser (02:20:57.848)
You are welcome.

It's good to be back. I feel like it's been a while since I've been on.

and has been too long even.

Well, I will join you for the end of Words of Radiance as well.

Recap. Love it. Until next time, whatever the outro says.

Slava (02:21:19.092)
Share this episode with fellow book adventurers. helps more listeners discover side quests and join us next time on Roshar. Until then, happy questing.

Thanks, Slava.