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In-depth discussions and explorations into the whole new world of web3 and the metaverse with leading thinkers and industry experts. Presented by the NYU Metaverse Collaborative.
The Whole Metaverse - #9: Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity in the Metaverse | with Karen Baker
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Pierre: Welcome to the Home Metaverse podcast, the NYU podcast about Metaverse blockchain and NFT Hosted by Dr. Elizabeth Haas and myself, Pierre Gervois. Today we had a pleasure to have Karen Baker. Uh, She's an expert in diversity and inclusion in in business, and she's now doing research.
About diversity and inclusion in the Metaverse and Karen Baker is bringing us a topic that is quite. Frankly, taboo right now in the ecosystem, the, the glaring lack of diversity, inclusion, and equity in the metaverse. We have all been listening to this conversation on Twitter, on social media, but how the metaverse is going to be a completely open and inclusive space.
But the reality when we look at it that. Category of people are just not represented for a variety of reason, for economic reason, for social and political discriminations. And we were just not seeing it. And Karen is making, is putting this issue in front of us and she's starting this very important conversation.
And I think it's, it's a major issue to make sure that every. Can have access to the metaverse, and we have everybody's voice, everybody's opinion to build a completely inclusive metaverse. So let listens to Karen Baker's interview.
Pierre: Hello, Karen. So we are here with Dr. Elizabeth Haas and myself. We're the, the co-host of the whole Metaverse podcast, which is the NYU podcast about metaverse. And we're very happy to have you as a guest today.
I would like to start, by saying that what you're talking about diversity and inclusion in the metaverse feels really to me as a complete taboo topic in the crypto ecosystem.
I have been working for two years in the crypto ecosystem, and I can see and witness that there is an extreme lack of diversity.
My belief, it's because it's by design, but it's not politically correct to say that. So I might not say it, but I see very little efforts or even interest to talk about that.
And I think it's just not wrong. I think it's shameful, and I think we should forcefully put this topic at the forefront and. Keep it at the back burner, like a minor topic because it's not because we need all voices and all experiences to build the metaverse together. So I'm particularly happy to have you to talk about these issues.
So can you please introduce yourself? Karen.
Karen: Sure. Absolutely. So I'm Karen Baker, and I am the founder and president of Boathouse Group, Inc. I found at the DC office. It's a 22 year old marketing and communications firm birthed out of Boston. Massachusetts and came here to just widen the scope, you know, widen the service and, and really letting people know about the work that we're doing.
And I think through my design practice, you know, I've seen exactly. The conversation not being had about diversity and inclusion and technology and really wanted to start to be a voice, you know, to have people start, bring attention to it. And, I find, like you said, Pierre is that it is really not happening.
And, and taboo is a really great word to say because the conversations that I've had in other interviews, people are, honest about the fact that this is either the first time they've had a conversation, about diversity and inclusion in the technology industry, or they turn around and say, oh no, we, we, we understand and we are doing something and nothing is actually happening.
So it's the polar opposites, you know, of what actually is occurring in the but, but at the end of the day, nothing is, is not in the forefront, definitely in technology.
Elizabeth: have a question. I mean, part of my sense on all of this is that, the snow crash definition of the metaverse was a totally exclusive, you know, bad place, right? And so in some. It was sort of a warning about what we would be building if we didn't think about it.
and in, in some people's mind, that is what we are building. and I may be, I may be off, but it's, it's part of my fear here.
Karen: Yeah, that, that's, that's a great point. Liz, I think that when things have occurred, where there are problems, I think that people have tried to isolate them as if this was just one developer's, one creator, one company's mistake, and not wanting to have the conversation. The problem has been happening and the, to create the Web 3.0 or to create the metaverse, we're going to correct it, yet, we're still not gonna have the conversation about it.
We're just gonna erase that part and we're gonna continue to move forward and have this level of innovation and not have the conversation. We'll just be able to correct it, I think is what people think.
Pierre: I see a deliberate, erasor of this conversation. I have. nearly every day on Twitter where most of the conversation happens about NFT and the Metaverse following conversations and I barely see any mention of diversity and inclusion. I see always the same category of people. Building the metaverse, having conversation about the metaverse, and nobody seems shocked, nobody.
Look at who this person are coming from and I, I am really shocked and I am, shall I say something? I am the best positioned person to say something as a white privileged person, but I feel that nobody's talking. I start to feel really uncomfortable to see this happening around me and really nobody getting interested with very, very few exceptions.
What would you suggest for the crypto community to start having this conversation? And I know it's like, tiring again, again, over and over. We're going to talk about that, but I think it, it, it's, it's our duty. What would you re.
Karen: I recommend exactly what you said. speak up I had an interview recently where this was the first time we've had the conversation in four years, and he was like, oh, so basically all white men sitting at the table, we can't keep doing. I. was like Exactly. you're going to have to talk up and say that this is a problem.
You're gonna have to bring it to the fore-front I Like you have Pierre have sat in on different conversations about the Metaverse, even platforms like Clubhouse. it was a three hour long conversation that I sat on and not once did someone bring up the conversation about diversity and inclusion and equity particular in this conversation, and it was a very.
diverse Group of people there, but I think it was like, okay, because we're a diverse group, we don't have to have that conversation. I'm like, no, you still have to have that conversation because what you're talking about is funding too. You're talking about we're not getting funded, we're not being given the same opportunities.
But that's why, because no one is having the conversation about, it so it has to be the, awareness being raised within these platforms, within these social media spaces. Whether it is the articles that are being written, people have to talk up. Otherwise, you're gonna go into the metaverse and you're gonna say, okay, so I'm not here.
I don't see myself. This doesn't talk about my lived experience. This doesn't even make sense to me, you know, when I'm in this space. And then you probably may never even step into the space at all. So again, it will be isolated. And I use the word elitist. In how it's formed, and then we'll be sitting here looking and something else will have passed by when we talk about marginalized communities or creators of color who have development and, technology ideas that get completely passed by.
Elizabeth: I have a couple questions cause I sort of think there's some nuance that's important here. I do think there's a fair amount being written about women not being included, but there's zero being written about blacks not being included. So I, I think there's some nuance
here. The second thing is a fair amount is being written about the accessibility the metaverse creates.
But you know, accessibility is sort of a fact. Whereas diversity is a decision
and people aren't making those decisions. It may be accessible, but if we don't have that diversity, we haven't made some of the important decisions that have to be.
Karen: absolutely. And then let's talk about a accessibility, right? So people will make that argument. You're absolutely right that it's accessible, right? But we know that there's a certain. Level of internet that you need to be in these spaces, right? So when we have this digital divide going on where people do not have high speed internet in order to get take part in these spaces, there is an accessibility is still an issue.
It's still an issue can't afford. And you're talking about in the millions of people that cannot afford internet within their home. But then you say that it's accessible for them to take part in the metaverse, Not possible not. possible. And I completely agree with you because when you talk about diversity, people go, oh, but women, we gotta push women.
We gotta get women in tech. Absolutely. But then at the end of the day, then let's break down what you're talking about. Let's break down the amount of African Americans, Hispanic speaking, or Hispanic community, indigenous. Not having a conversation at all about that is what completely left out of the conversation as well.
So you are right. I think that people use diversity. It's become a marketing term, like it's getting passed over and not broken down into exactly what that means. I think people just don't understand and some are choosing not to understand it.
Elizabeth: I mean, I actually think the question, you know, can they see themselves here is really the right question to be asking all the time.
Karen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and know, as a designer or developer, you have to step back and be able to say, does Liz see herself in that space? Does Karen see herself in that space? And now they're, they're what they're going to experience in that space.
Cause we know Metaverse is about experiences. It's not going to be the same. So at the end of the day, I can't create this in a silos, which I keep saying designers and Korea can't be in a silos. You're going to have to go out and talk to people in the community. So something called ethnography you're gonna have to do, you know, you're not gonna be able to just turn around and create it, throw it out there.
Now they're excited, they love it. It's, it's for them, and they're like, no, it's not. If they have a voice to be able to say.
Elizabeth: I had a couple other kind of nuance maybe questions here. One is that, There's a sense that web three will be a more democratized base. It won't have the monopoly power of a few big players making all the money.
but there's something of a battle with that. and I don't know how that plays into this or if it even plays into it, but my.
Gut says if there's a monopoly, it will feed the discrimination, even if they don't intentionally want that, that that is a result. But I may be wrong.
Karen: no, you're not wrong. So I'll tell you a particular conversation I had back in the fall with someone who was in the Metaverse is an African American male, who was getting funded. He was looking at funding and he was referred by a friend of his who is, a white male, a Caucasian male, and was clear with him what he was funded.
he gave him the numbers, you know, that he was funded and turned him into these funders in order to say, okay, here's someone with even a amazing idea and you should fund it. When he was given the offer, it was a third of. his friend had been offered, right? So he then brought up the conversation of, I know that you offered him more than what you're offering me.
They began to then decrease the value of what his, his, his innovation was. They were bringing it down. It's not this anymore, it's not that, and so he left the deal. You know, he left a half a million dollar deal, which was, some people be like, oh my God, why would you do that? But when the other person got $3 million out, he left the half a million dollar deal.
So you're absolutely right that it's happening. And when I asked him that, he's like, I'm not the only one. This is still the problem. We're still getting offered significantly less than our counterparts are getting offered. And fortunately, he had the insight to know what that person was offered.
Otherwise he would've known and he would've taken the.
Elizabeth: Is anybody doing something right here? Are there any benchmarks that you see any place?
Karen: what I am seeing is, is, is the training I haven't necessarily heard. funding. I have a few people in my circle who are being funded. their deals are not necessarily of great value as far as financially. They, they're creeping along with it. but there are some venture capitalists who, as I say, are wanting funders of disruption who are actually funding a few people that are, that are in my circle.
but other than that, I, I'm not seeing anything beyond maybe the training. Like Meta has this immersive training that they're supposed to launch. I haven't seen it launched yet. grants for the web, they're funding artists. Who want to do, have a level of web monetization, they have a funding opportunity for that as well too.
And they put ambassadors in different places in order to make sure they're reaching, communities of color. Those are the ones that I do do know about, but it hasn't been, not a large pool. Not a large pool, not that I'm hearing.
Elizabeth: And is the venture capitalist that's funding people, you know, is it one in the same venture capitalist? Like is it Sequoia? Is there somebody that's doing a good job of it?
Karen: you know, this one in particular, they have been funding. This person was the first person they funded that was considered an artist. and they've given, they're on us like a second round with her right now, and I know for a fact that she went through at least six. Different venture capitalists trying to prove to them that this worked, that how she was using the metaverse, you know, from an experiential standpoint, using galleries in order to push artists was going to work.
You know? And they were the first ones to believe in her, and this was the first artist that they had for funded in that particular way. and she's, I mean, traveling, trying to push her idea in that particular way. That's about it. I mean, from the information I've gotten from her, and even the story that I told before, that was just one that I've heard,
Pierre: continuing on the economic discrimination aspect. For a person to try to enter the metaverse and use N F T first, you need to have a minimal amount of cryptocurrency in your wallet. To achieve that, you need to go through Coinbase or Gemini, and you need to give your bank account references. So first, people who do not have access to banking services or defecto excluded. Part of the population who definitely are having ideas, but we will never hear about their ideas. Second, you need to have a minimal amount of money to pay for the gas fees. So whatever you're doing, you have to pay to pay for play system. Fundamentally, you want to do something, you pay for gas fees and Ethereum, it can.
Quite significant, and that's really a problem to me because economic economically disadvantage. People. For them, the priorities to buy groceries is not to pay 10 or $20 in gas fees to buy or sell an N F T. So I think at the core of the blockchain, there is this issue of economic selection that if you don't have access to minimal amount of money, you just can't be a player.
I mean, what, what would you re. We can do collectively to address this fundamental issue.
Karen: You know, Pierre, I think you're the first person that I've talked to to actually address the fundamental issue that economics is a problem. Even if you talk about the, the Oculus glasses for vr, that price alone. Will keep people from participating. You know, so people have to go deeper in understanding what is going on.
And I think, again, that is that call to action of understanding who you are building for and who you're excluding when you're building, when you're designing, when you're developing. And if you are going to say that the metaverse is going to be. This type of person, which someone would be too scared to say but that's what you're doing then that's what you would have to do.
But to turn around and say it's inclusive, it's for everybody. We're gonna make sure that it's a lived experience for anyone to walk in. When you talk about mega real estate, Type of metaverses as well too. Who's gonna do that? You know, at the end of the day, that is the conversation. that needs to be had.
You have to have the conversation about the digital divide. You have to have conversation about the lack of access. You have to have the conversation about pricing and what is happening in, in, in pricing. You know, like the world economic form has formed this whole committee on governance over the metaverse, you know, and they met initially in 2022 to.
The things that we're talking about right now. So I've been really watching and monitoring like, how are you all going to, put into place the governance of these very large brands and how will these very large brands ensure that people who continue to support them who are buying from them are able to actually be, have accessibility into the metaverse.
So it's a conversation about economics. It plays in. completely
Elizabeth: And what are you seeing from the World Economic Forum? Do they. I mean, they get the issue. Do they get what? How to do it?
Karen: You know, that's a good question cuz they, they seem to, the research that they're doing, the information that they're putting out now, the governance and accountability is what I'm not sure of yet. That's what I'm, I'm watching to see how are you going to. Be able to ensure that certain things don't happen that we see in social media, which is what they said was the reason they pulled it together because they wanted to ensure that the things that were happening through social media that we, they did not see within the metaverse occurring.
So what I haven't seen, I've seen a lot of research, a lot of information being put out, a lot of panels and webinars, but I haven't seen the accountability show up yet and I don't, not sure how they're planning to do that. So,
Pierre: Did you have conversation with marketplaces like Open Sea to have their opinion about what they could do to make sure we have a better inclusion?
Karen: No, I haven't. But that's a good one though. We really need to have a conversation with them as well too. I feel like there needs to be some call. To some summit or something that happens because even the meeting that the World Economic Forum had from what you read and when you look at and who was in the room, it seemed a closed door situation.
So how do we have an open conversation where people in the public who are looking at this part of this can actually have this conversation of. If it's called out, you're called out. You know, if it's educated, we need to educate you. Whatever needs to happen, we need to do it. So, yeah.
Pierre: and also the more I, I think about it and, and talk with you, I see that economic discrimination is really a major issue. When you look at the price for a ticket to access all these N F T conventions, it is just outrageous. I mean, most of this convention to have a regular admission ticket is like $500.
Seriously, and nobody's saying anything. I'm like, what? To attend a business event that is supposed to be for young creative people, artists, $500. I mean, if it's not a deliberate. Discrimination system. I, I don't know what it is because I mean, I guess sponsors could help to cover the price and in these events were very well made and I don't criticize them.
They're wonderful and I love attending, but also the, the diversity is obviously extremely minimal
to be polite.
Karen: Correct. Exactly. And I always say to people, the way to exclude people is the price of the ticket to get in. You know? So if you look at it and you see that you automatically, people won't be able to get in. I was having a conversation yesterday with Howard University and we were talking about trying to get a trip.
For some of the students and she was like, Karen, literally, if you say to me that the students have to pay $800, that's their contribution to this trip. I need about 18 months for them to be able to get that those funds together. And I was like writing this down and I'm going, wow. So if you're talking about what event costing $500, particularly for a student to get in, if they need a year and a.
For 800, just do the math. It's not happening, then they're not going. And so if you wanna bring young innovators up in this conversation, then you are already excluding them from being part of the education and the networking necessary to get their stuff in front of people.
Elizabeth: Networking is such a key component of this world too. So if you're excluding them from the networking, you're excluding them,
Karen: Absolutely. And it's just a, a spiral down of everything else that they don't have access to For sure.
Elizabeth: is maybe, you know, the first step, trying to find some conferences that. Don't have a fee.
Karen: Yeah, that would be great. You know, that was a great thing about the pandemic is that, you know, certain companies, and I'll just say one for sure, like Adobe had a summit. That was an amazing. Summit, you know, it started at like $1,900, right? So during the pandemic it was zero. And I'm like, now this has gotta be historical.
This is happening, that they actually are doing something and it's zero, you know? So at the end of the day, it's going to have to be, and I'm like, so I'm trying to see, are you, will you all continue this? Will you actually think about the fact that pricing is actually excluding people? You know, I was sitting on, webinar panels, it was 30,000 people in a webinar.
You're not gonna get that in person. Correct. So at the end of the day, you're gonna have to rethink how, you bring people into, the space. Otherwise, they come in, they see no one that looks like them. Then there's an uncomfortableness with. that How they network could shift because they don't see anyone that looks like them in the room.
So at the end of the day, absolutely it wouldn't hurt certain brands to be really financially, it wouldn't hurt them to make it zero really.
Elizabeth: What else could, could be done to get this, get it moving Is, or is that the right first step is, is there something else that you're thinking?
Karen: You know, I think the biggest thing is it's a leadership situation. I think that leaders have to understand that there's a problem. And then they have to start to trickle it down. You know, if you're in a management level, let's just say at a technology firm right now, you may not feel empowered to raise the voice and make the change.
Not that you couldn't, but where you sit within the hierarchy or the org chart may not allow you that. So when we have leaders that actually step up and say, how bold are we going to be when we talk about d e? And we gonna reflect on this internally, so we can push this out externally, then it will create a shift.
I mean, we'll, we'll see, as you say, a ripple. We'll see a ripple. So I think really leadership has to be the first. When someone sits in the position of a ceo, you know, or they sit in this position of an owner, you know, they are the ones that's gonna have to make the step forward and the rest will follow or they'll get off, you know, but it'll be very clear that this is the direction that we're planning.
And this is how we're gonna deliver that. You know, so, and I could say this, I'm happy to be at a company that we're doing that and, and making serious strides and putting a lot of financial behind ensuring that we do that because otherwise it wouldn't be a place I would be if we weren't taking bold steps and bold moves to do that and see that we can be an example for, for marketing and te.
Elizabeth: Just one more, and it's sort of kind of a catch-all. You've given us illustrations that are clear, clear kind of discrimination illustrations for venture capital. For, you know, your N F T artist friends. is there anything else that kind of sticks in your mind that you saw that really was disturbing?
Karen: Let me see if I, I could tell this story without mentioning the name of the company. Y you know, I think I could do that. So I have a, a friend, she's a c e o, a founder of color and she had come up with a concept 10 years ago and another VC. Found out that a brand was using the complete name of her company, right?
They were putting it on a product, launching it in a major, major brand in retail and everything else, and told her, you should look into this. So she sent an email to the person who was the C chief marketing officer, responded to her automatically, and began conversation and negotiation with her to ensure that she became not even the representative.
Person for that particular product they were launching, but at least to acknowledge the fact that she was the originator of the idea what she came to the table with financially was not met. However, what they agreed to was this grant to give to artists women, artists of color, particularly African American women, in order for her to be able to support them, them.
But they negotiated so much financially. Knowing that they were wrong because they were stealing her name, to at least not get into that situation as much. So she got into the deal with them. She's in the deal now. It's in phases of what she's trying to do as well, but the representation of the brand to her name became like, which value do you want when.
People who told her that she needed to technically soup, you know, and actually be compensated for the fact that she had this name for 10 years and they just chose it and decided to launch a major campaign around it as well. So if she had not been told by someone that this was coming down the pike, she wouldn't have known, even if she did use the product or not, she may have not known that they were actually doing it.
The campaign would've come and it would've gone, and she would've had no involvement nor for financial.
Pierre: thank you very much. Karen. I think we had a, a very important conversation with you today, and I hope we continue this conversation. Because we cannot just let it, let it down. So thank you for having help us to start the, the, this very important aspect about the Metaverse. So thank you very much for having being with us today on the whole Metaverse podcast.
And we wish you a wonderful day and great research on this.
Karen: No, I appreciate it. This has been great. Y'all have amazing question. I appreciate the passion too. Definitely. We need it.