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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
[Music]
[Music]
hello and welcome to the moonshots
podcast it's episode 125.
i'm your co-host mike parsons and i am
joined by the man
who is our resident thinker yes mr mark
pearson freeland good morning
hey good morning mike the power of
knowing is happening today how's your
morning looking so far
it's a great morning when you get the
chance to try and digest another
great book from uh one of our total
i'm going top five moonshot authors mark
who are we gonna listen to today
he's not only one of our top five
moonshot authors mike he was actually as
you might remember and our listeners
might remember one of my favorite people
that we've done on the show it's mr adam
grant and his new series oh sorry his
new book think again the power of
knowing what you don't know and this is
a it's a pretty popular book actually
mike it is and um kind of what you would
expect from adam grant after he did
originals given take option b
he is quite the powerhouse and he has
brought us another
another big stonking book
but it wasn't us that came up with this
idea was it mark
uh look what's fantastic is we're
starting to definitely get some great
recommendations mike from our listeners
and today's episode is inspired
recommended and actually dedicated to mr
rodrigo who got in touch with us and
requested that we dig into adam grant's
new book so rodrigo thank you very much
for giving us this recommendation we
have thoroughly enjoyed getting into it
and we hope you enjoy listening to us
learning out loud from mr adam grant
yeah where abouts is rodrigo from like
what part of the world is he doing he's
moonshotting in
well my friend rodrigo in fact as we've
we've spoken a couple of times via email
and so on is in uh in munich but
originally from mexico oh wow another
another uh man of the world mike a world
traveler and we have got a huge show in
front of us today we are going to travel
the world
of thinking again and so
you know the funny thing is
thinking and the art of thinking
is
kind of underrated and i think a lot of
people
consider thinking as like a god-given
gift you either can or you can't but i
think what adam grant is going to teach
us today is that is totally not
the case so i think we're about to
rewire some of our mind aren't we
mr mark
yeah i think the concept of think again
is is that rewiring isn't it and what a
perfect i think segway as well as a
connection from that previous series
mike in the timeless classics and that
final episode that we did last week show
one two four with carol dweck and her
book mindset
this first introduction clip that we're
gonna hear from adam grant himself is
actually telling us again building on
that concept of the growth mindset
why he wrote this book think again the
power of knowing what you don't know
and asks us to really look for and take
advantage of opportunities that you and
i can do day to day to learn and
practice
in the winter of 2018 i went to a bunch
of the most powerful ceos in silicon
valley and i said hey i'd love to run a
remote work friday experiment where you
just let people work from anywhere one
day a week and we can test the effects
on productivity and creativity
and they all said
no thank you
we don't want to open pandora's box
we're afraid people are going to
procrastinate all the time that they'll
never come back to the office and that
our culture is going to fall apart
fast forward three years at least three
of those ceos have now announced that
their workforce might be permanently
remote
and to me that was such a missed
opportunity for rethinking right that
they could have had all of 2018 and 2019
to practice working remotely and figure
out how to make it work
and now i wonder actually if they've
overcorrected and that that many of
these firms should actually be looking
at hybrid models as opposed to saying
we're completely remote or we're
completely in the office i was struck by
what a struggle it was for a lot of
these ceos to rethink their basic
assumptions about whether we could get
things done and collaborate effectively
if we weren't in the same room and
i think that it makes sense to to stick
to your convictions if the world holds
still
but in a rapidly changing world we need
to be as good at rethinking our opinions
and our knowledge as we are at thinking
in the first place
well the rethinking assumptions i love
what he did to then is he said look
because the world is constantly changing
you cannot hold assumptions as being
fixed but they must grow they must
change and evolve
and i think that's almost like the very
first thing you need to
wrap your head around as we take in this
book by adam grant think again
is that we it's almost
we have to think again because the world
is constantly changing and i would say
the timeliness of this book given 2020
means that things changed a whole lot
and so we must go back to our first
principles and go what do we believe to
be true foundational thoughts
and to challenge ourselves to get into
some of those assumptions maybe even
wait for it mark our bias right and
really dig into that stuff and i think
that's the invitation not only of this
book but the next hour together we're
going to challenge ourselves we're going
to think about where
we might have
held on to some old thinking
and in the second half of the show we're
going to show you how to embrace new
thinking and what it really takes to
kind of open up the potential that we
all have remember
your
your thinking ability is not fixed it is
not
given to you at birth it is something
you can work on and i think for all of
our listeners i think it's such a great
opportunity if you
really open yourself up to the idea that
you can actually improve your thinking
your decision making your problem
solving by just merely challenging your
assumptions and having the right mental
models i mean wow what a show but mark
what a series right
yeah wow i mean not only are we on the
back of carol dweck's mindset book but
following that timeless classic series
mic where we really got into the
i guess the dna of how
we all think wasn't it it was really
turning the mirror towards ourselves and
talking about how habits are evolved how
we can take pragmatic and practical
steps to be perhaps better or calmer
individuals in our day-to-day lives
this series that we're now going into
our thinking better series beginning
with rodrigo's recommendation of adam
grant think again really gives us this
opportunity to go out and put it into
practice
we want to as you've just said build on
this
ability to not be stuck to our
convictions
it's to put into practice well how might
we
notice those opportunities to go out and
learn how might we challenge the
assumptions that we might have from
school birth and so on now that we know
how to perhaps think better by turning a
look towards ourselves mike now let's go
out and produce
in the real world we've got a pretty
exciting series yeah it really is and
some really challenging
new ground for us we're going to include
matthew mcconaughey
dan millman who wrote the way of the
peaceful warrior as this
really expansive thinking better series
and i think we should all be like
i don't know i've got my lemon and
ginger tea whatever it takes to to
loosen up and become curious and open to
what the world has to offer to
potentially think better because if we
can think better we can be better we can
really
achieve i think the very best version of
ourselves and we are going to launch
into the first big foundational idea of
the book
and that is that we get stuck in an over
confidence
cycle this is all about the idea that
we're holding on
to outdated ideas and and almost
blocking out even the potential to
refine to challenge
to improve those assumptions those
baselines if you will
so what we're going to do is we're going
to go through a roaring set of clips
that really point out how
adam grant frames
what we do wrong right now and this is
the part of the show where you get to
not along and go oh yeah maybe i do that
or maybe
you see your colleagues or your friends
doing it and this will be a great
opportunity for you to better understand
our you know
nature to defend our existing thinking
and to be resistant to change this will
be a great opportunity to see what that
is understand that better and then in
the second half of the show we're going
to be all about how to
right reinvent your thinking how to be
curious and it's going to take a whole
lot of courage too i'm going to show you
how to do that as well but let's kick it
off
by thinking about this whole
idea of let's come into the present
let's acknowledge what we do how we
maybe get our thinking wrong let's start
with a thought from the book think again
by emma grant and it's all about
upgrading your opinion
when was the last time you changed your
mind
many people see virtue and sticking to
their beliefs and holding on to strong
opinions
but the more willing you are to change
your mind after careful reasoning and
not peer pressure the more likely you
are to rise to the top of any field
forecasters who change their mind twice
as much as other forecasters prior to a
final prediction on an election a
sporting event or where the stock market
will be a year from now produce
significantly more accurate forecasts
college students who have more eraser
marks on their exams and reconsider
their answers before handing in an exam
routinely score higher than students who
don't rethink their first answer
and u.s presidents who are ranked
highest among historians are those who
displayed intellectual curiosity and
openness and were most likely to adjust
their policies based on new information
george bernard shaw famously said those
who cannot change their mind cannot
change anything
think of changing your mind like
upgrading your smartphone
you don't want to be the person walking
around with a 10 year old smartphone
it's slow prone to crashing and makes it
difficult to communicate with others
many of us fail to upgrade our opinions
and way of thinking because we get stuck
in an overconfident cycle
we form an opinion that feels right
we like feeling right so we seek
information to support that opinion
while discounting and dismissing
information that doesn't support our
opinion
as a result we feel validated for
holding an opinion which gives way to
more pride and starts the cycle over
again
when you allow an overconfidence cycle
to continue you stop learning and stop
listening to anyone that doesn't support
your opinion
feeling right is more important than
being right
but even brilliant minds get stuck in an
overconfident cycle
einstein refused to support the emerging
field of quantum mechanics despite the
overwhelming evidence that supported it
what trapped einstein and what traps
other great minds in an overconfident
cycle are three modes we all enter from
time to time
preaching prosecuting and politicking
as long as we are stuck in any of these
three modes
feeling right becomes more important
than being right
and we stop learning
what a great little introduction clip
before we dig into mike what preaching
prosecuting and politicking are and how
we can identify them in our behaviors
what a great little introduction clip
there from productivity game breaking
down this over confidence cycle and i
think i'm speaking for um probably a few
of our listeners mike perhaps
certainly for myself i
probably do find that that sense of
relief
when i believe that i might be correct
you know it's a little bit i'll be
honest it's a little bit hard sometimes
to accept that somebody else is correct
isn't it it sometimes takes a little bit
of confidence or maybe even courage to
say you know what i hear you you are
right and i think it is quite natural to
perhaps fall into
a behavior of yep i i know best or i've
i've got the experience i've got the um
the almost the expectation that i'm
going to be correct and mike i'd like to
see what you think of this for me this
reminds me of that big old word that
we've heard a few times
ego it feels like ego comes in here
doesn't it no i know but you know the
the funny thing is like we can't
distinguish the difference between
ourselves and our opinions and ideas so
if someone challenges our idea we
immediately take that on as they're
challenging us
um and i think you know i i think about
great
moments
when i've been part of a team where
we've been when there's been enough
safety that people don't take challenge
to an idea as anything personal that
i i have distinct
memories
of really great breakthroughs happening
about solving problems making decisions
when we've been able to detach a little
bit but i think we all too often become
very stubborn
uh and very protective of our ideas
because we think a challenge to our idea
is a challenge to
ourselves
and it's like the whole thing of don't
take things so personally it's that's
just ideas and the more the merrier the
more that they are challenged and they
go through the washing machine a few
times they'll come out cleaner they'll
come out better ideas but we so often
hang on to them don't we it's just like
when someone takes down your idea you're
like you can physically feel the
crumbling inside like oh my idea's just
being destroyed
yeah i think it's what
is being called out in that kind of
introduction to over confidence clip
is it also this this validation that
comes with holding that opinion or
holding that point of view which i think
is quite interesting once you
you know not only can get past the
validation that comes with hey don't
challenge me this is
my way of thinking but actually remember
oh yeah well maybe i'm just feeling
validated for having a point of view
regardless i think i think that was
quite an interesting little note there
yeah and fascinating too that
forecasters
that changed their um forecast more
frequently ended up being more accurate
because they're continuously refining
and adjusting their point of view how
strong is that well again
i'm sure we'll talk about this a few
times on the show today mike but this is
pretty
essential to
trying to
learn and and build a product
through the use of of testing isn't it
you know this refinement that comes with
uh you and i talking to customers it's
kind of similar to
your mindset here
by working with others
accepting their points of view
as you just said it goes through the
wash and it comes out cleaner and more
stronger or more informed but but mark
you have to be careful because look
you're already naturally solving the
problem first but we've got more problem
to identify because you know we talked
about politicking and prosecuting these
are all the bad habits but i got another
one for you what we're going to listen
to now is another idea from adam grant's
book think again and this is something
that we might all identify in ourselves
or others around us and it's we're not
at the sunday church but it is indeed
called
preaching
overconfidence mode number one preaching
when trying to convince someone to adopt
your belief you'll probably pretend to
be 100 certain in your belief to be more
persuasive
the more you preach that belief the more
certainty you'll develop and think that
your belief is bulletproof
the more that someone preaches about a
single type of investment like bitcoin
the more likely they are to dismiss
concerning data that could jeopardize
bitcoin and lead to a catastrophic loss
the more time someone preaches about a
political candidate the more likely they
are to dismiss actions he or she is
taking that they would probably condemn
if they had not been preaching the
strengths of that candidate to others
so let's break this down a little bit
mike because for me when i
you know read and learn about this
concept of preaching and like say we'll
get into uh proaction later in the show
but a demonstration from my experience
with regards to preaching is probably
when i'm trying to
perhaps sell a solution to a partner or
a teammate maybe you know maybe i've
gone away and done a lot of homework and
i come to you and say hey look mike i
think that this is the answer to our
problem this is the solution and i will
put in a lot of effort to try and
convince you around and in doing so
i'm kind of closing myself off because
no longer will my brain
take on board any of that feedback
because it feels so certain that i'm
correct is that how your
interpreting the preaching concept oh
look mine is is is is
even a bit more nuanced than that i
think what we do is it's like it's like
a chant where like
the solution to the
to the problem is this the solution to
the problem is this the solution and
then before you know like you have you
have
you know you're drunk on your own idea
you've said it so many times there's no
possible way you could entertain there
being any other i think you're like this
so this preaching
um
gets you in this trance where you think
there's only one approach but also it
creates all this social capital that
you've been saying this for so long you
can't afford to change
um
you've been preaching to yourself you've
been such an advocate you've kind of
brainwashed yourself but also in one
moment of clarity
you're like oh maybe it's this but
you're like oh i can't afford to go down
that path
you know
because you've been preaching you've
been out there telling everyone it's
we've got to go left we've got to go
left and you're like left is the only
way left is the only way and then a
little bit of data comes your way which
says oh you know what maybe it's right
you're like
i can't think that we've got to go left
we've got to go left you know
i think this is what happens with
preaching it's like you get in the
trance but also
the social capital of pivoting is so big
like oh guys i know i've been saying
this for like a month but i actually
think we should go right now
and
this is where you know you get into
these really
um you know you think about bad
decisions that get made like you watch
history documentaries
and like what's the theme you know
someone goes in
to another country
in battle
they win and then they don't have any
plan for what happens after they win and
then the whole place falls apart i just
check out the middle east for like 10
hundred examples of that um like people
like just breach we've got to go to war
we've got to go to war they go to one
then they go oh
no one's thought about what happens once
it's over right it's really interesting
how this this trance that we all get
into
uh about solutions new ways of working
so we've got to make the decision we've
all got to go left i just don't think
you you get into a state where you can't
afford to even entertain
going right
but i think the reason
exactly as you say is you don't want to
confess is it you know i think what adam
grant's saying is the overconfidence
that that comes well one of the results
of being overconfident is them being
afraid to say that you're wrong yeah
isn't it yeah how could it be i mean you
reject it so fundamentally don't you
but you know the funny thing is like
we've been talking about preaching but
we're still got more bad habits to
recognize mark so let's let's keep the
bad habits flowing what's the next one
so the next one that was being called
out in adam grant's thing again is the
concept of prosecuting and this idea
let's dig into and hear a little bit
about uh what prosecuting is really
about
overconfidence mode number two
prosecuting
when we think someone's belief is wrong
we get busy building up a case against
them and stop considering any valid
points they have to say
if someone is busy bashing bitcoin and
looking for reasons why bitcoin is a bad
investment just to score points in a
twitter battle they'll ignore or
discount good arguments for why bitcoin
is a good investment and might miss a
great opportunity to diversify their
portfolio and protect their savings
uh you know the thing that this reminds
me of mark is
when
someone disagrees with you
because you've been preaching right
let's follow this in adam grant's order
you've been preaching so much right we
you know let's take the example in the
clips bitcoin bitcoin bitcoin
then when someone says oh no no no
ethereum ethereum ethereum you're like
no
and what we do
and this is a classic defensive
mechanism
instead of just like rejecting the idea
alone
we start to reject the person itself so
if you think in an information war if
somebody is putting out information and
a counterparty doesn't like that
information what do they do it's the
same you shoot the messenger right so
here what we're talking about is
prosecuting is you not only prosecute
the idea in order to like make yourself
feel safe because you're in fight or
flight because you've been preaching so
this new idea that is different to yours
it's it's like a threat so what you do
is you not only reject the idea you
reject the person themselves
um so by being closed-minded not only
are you going to miss out on the
opportunity of perhaps diversifying your
portfolio as that example puts but also
uh learning from that other individual
yeah because you reject both the idea
and the messenger the message and the
messenger essentially because you've
been you know as we said your ego was
running right if you think you've got
the idea
and then you know who's this person
coming over here saying it's it's
bitcoin no no no no no i'm i'm ethereum
man like however you want to play this
the interesting thing that is that it's
all like in this world of guessing and
assumption and bias
and you're spending all of this energy
defending it right that's the craziest
thing like it you know the best
investment opportunity could be staring
you in the face but you're spending so
much energy
rejecting it on surface value isn't that
isn't that fascinating
have you seen that yourself like can you
go back to times in your career
where good ideas have been put on the
table but people haven't had the
capacity
to
embrace him bracelet maybe they've been
preaching or maybe they're just stuck in
prosecuting as adam grant would say in
his book the power of
knowing
what you don't know right
how how do you see this play out in in
in the work space like people just
prosecuting like crazy i i think what
happens uh when teams might have this
particular scenario is it becomes
divided you know you might have let's
let's try and use a another example
from a situation that i've seen in the
past where you have different creative
teams trying to come up with a common
goal
perhaps you're working with a particular
business or brand or partner and you're
all trying to come to the conclusion of
let's create something that's great for
customers let's try and create something
that's great for the world
but what happens is there's almost i
wonder whether this is a connection with
the overconfidence cycle um a
competitiveness
so i might be preaching and saying no
this is my idea this is what i think it
is and prosecuting by being close-minded
to the opinions of others
and what happens is people are then
drawn apart yes they splinter don't they
because there's no common um destination
anymore instead that journey has become
very uh littered with different opinions
and and accusations shooting the
messengers and so on and what happens is
the teams
through over confidence begin to to fall
apart yeah because i think if you're in
prosecutor mode
then uh
you see entertaining the other option
as a defeat
and that's really triggering the ego
right
so you're like heaven forbid i don't
want to have my idea defeated
so i will reject this
the interesting thing that we're going
to get to in the second half the show is
like it's actually the inverse is is
classic caldweck growth mindset versus
fixed mindset instead of being fixed
about it you can be like oh wow
if this idea from somebody else is in
fact right even though it's different to
mine we are a step closer to uh solution
answer success whatever you're on the
path towards
it's just this shift and it is an
amazing mark that we can all be super
smart and and see everything happening
in the world but unless we're capable of
being disciplined
in how we respond to the world
listening
pausing
thinking it's not about ego it should
just be in the obsession towards the
right answer the right solution whatever
it is it's crazy how our egos are just
like running amuck and making such a
mess in our lives aren't they it's funny
how regularly this concept of ego um
comes up in in in the show
on the back of the timeless classic
series ego was one of the main blockers
that you know uh dale covey
um tall as well as carol were all
driving us towards and i think this
concept of uh embracing the ability your
own ability to kind of take ownership
yeah that's kind of interesting but
let's let's talk about one more before
we really get into mike that solution
that we keep on teasing our listeners
with yes there's one more
uh mindset or or behavior that i think
falls into this overconfidence cycle and
this third one that we're going to hear
about from adam grant's book is
politicking
overconfidence mode number three
politicking
politicking is the act of adopting other
people's views because we want to be
liked by them and accepted by them
in my first job at a college i wanted to
be liked and accepted by my boss so i
started talking like my boss and
supported positions that he supported
gradually i found myself taking on
beliefs and opinions that he held
without fully vetting them
adam grant says when we become so
wrapped up in preaching that we're right
prosecuting others who are wrong and
politicking for support we don't bother
to rethink our own views and we get
trapped in an overconfidence cycle
it is such a cycle and you can see
you know you could just imagine if you
look at the bad decisions in business
that have happened in the world you know
blockbuster not buying netflix and so on
and so forth could you imagine
how this overconfidence cycle must have
been running rampant in the company if
they couldn't see the internet coming
they could you know they could have
bought um blockbuster could have bought
netflix for some really tiny amount i
think it was like you know less than 50
million or something at the time
isn't it crazy that when you actually
break down these modes as adam grant has
in his book think again it's
you can really identify these behaviors
you've seen them in in past experience
and i think we should all admit we've
probably been guilty of doing this once
or twice ourselves
oh i mean being
you know drawn into any of those three
behaviors or modes as they're called you
know preaching prosecuting or politician
they are so i think
easy to do
perhaps because we
have kind of grown into the mic so
through the self-preservation piece you
know i'm going to try and be um
very good at the particular job i've got
so how do i do that well i need to ally
myself with the right people or i'm
going to try and protect my creative
integrity or try to protect my own you
know
particular point of view it's very i
think
easy to to fall into that and what i
think is really interesting about
today's show
is trying to rewire it so that we don't
fall into those patterns because as as
adam grant's really stating here they
can be pretty dangerous they can be
pretty close yeah yeah and with the
benefit of hindsight in history how many
times
do you watch documentaries and you see
critical decisions being made that you
know go on to lead to like
absolute pain and destruction you're
like oh my gosh where did you do that
you know
um it's it's so fascinating i mean you
think about again i've been watching
lots of history documentaries so
apologies for all these history
references that you know napoleon
he marched north on russia
failed lost the war and everything kind
of fell apart after that and then hitler
went and did the same thing a couple
hundred years later and it's just like
what was running rampant in their
overconfidence cycle there you know it's
amazing how these behaviors
really lead us so far away from the
right answer from the solution so it's
so great that that adam grant has gone
and said look watch out for preacher
mode prosecutor mode and politician mode
because this is the destruction of clear
thinking it's the path to bad decisions
it's getting to the wrong solutions
isn't it mark
yeah getting to the wrong solutions and
repeating history i like i like these
references mike
because they are they they're they're
building on this idea you know and again
we were talking about this before the
show with einstein insanity's doing the
same thing over and over and expecting a
different result if there is no
opportunity for us to challenge
ourselves to try and think again and
break out of the um the repetition mode
of of rinse and repeat and getting the
same results how are we ever going to to
to grow and learn and do something
different yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean it
was um um
think about blackberry not having the
app store
not having the uh screen uh keyboard um
there's just like
a a litany uh of uh bad decisions we
talked about in the previous episode the
um decca records rejected the beatles
right
like think about all of these i
mentioned block blockbuster think about
kodak management rejecting the digital
camera because they thought they were in
the film business right
that's right that's right they've been
so many as we look back they almost seem
pretty uh fundamental don't they and you
know maybe it's hindsight maybe it's
you know knowledge of of the future now
but it's so interesting to see
that a closed or fixed mindset at one
point
was so pivotal to all of those brands
and if they'd only had that i think
confidence that adam grant's really uh
inspiring us to try and follow
wow where could they be now yeah yeah i
mean
i think what we have uh tried to do for
the first half of the show is make a
case for like
being aware drawing everyone everyone's
attention you know all our listeners i
really want you to understand that
humans
are unique in the fact they have
cognitive function right they can think
right but here's the problem like our
thinking can run us astray we we learned
that in the classic series our thinking
can overwhelm ourselves we are different
from our thoughts you've got to take
control of them and you've got to know
that you know if you're on a mission to
go and do something
special something's going to have some
impact if you're daring to do something
different you're going to have all these
important decisions to make and it is
human nature not to get them right
motorola
chose not to do smartphones thought the
flip phone was it
i mean come on and uh you know obviously
google could have been purchased i think
it was really low by excite i think it
was like a
million dollars or something like this
yahoo turned down a microsoft and yahoo
is like peanuts these days
we have the
nature if not disciplined in how we
think if we're not working on our
thinking muscle on our brain
and sending it to the gym it's going to
get fat and flabby and it's going to
perform poorly we're going to fall into
this over confidence cycle
mark have we made the case for this
terrible you know valley of darkness of
overconfidence thinking of being in this
cycle where you're preaching prosecuting
and politicking
i really hope so and i hope we're not
getting into that preaching side mic i
think maybe hopefully we're not getting
into an overconfident cycle of saying
hey this is correct yes we believe in
this overconfidence cycle that adam
grant's calling out good i really do
believe that that it's uh it's
definitely
it's the fact yeah it is yeah i mean it
happens ever in meeting rooms at the
coffee machine
okay so now we've made the made the case
for the overconfidence cycle in a moment
b you can be relieved of all of your
pain and anguish because we will get
into the rethinking
cycle
which is the real magic of what adam
grant has discovered in his book think
again but before we get to that we've
got all sorts of shout outs for our
listeners mark um
where shall we start in in uh heaping
praise and good will to all of our
moonshotters around the world
i think it's only right that we start
with bettina patina in germany who
actually was our recommender and
requester for the previous show number
124 with carol dweck and mindset who in
turn has inspired and driven a lot of
the conversation that we've had in
today's show mike so bettina thank you
very much for your particular request we
loved it and we hope you did too
and we also got a great recommendation
from
imac in the u.s
they suggested we cover joseph campbell
and that will take us on the hero's
journey oh my gosh mark that is one big
piece of work for those of you not
familiar with his work if you've seen
the star wars trilogy that's basically
the narrative by which uh joseph
campbell discovered in the hero's
journey
it's kind of the path for those who are
trying to be the best version of
themselves
he created this kind of universal uh
storyline of how that plays out in life
and it's very
very interesting stuff so we'll be sure
to cover that in an upcoming show so
thank you to imac over there and a big
thank you to all our listeners in
austria they are turbocharged the
mindset growth is happening for them i
want to thank all of our austrian
listeners because we have rocketed up
the charts
um over there in austria so thank you i
hope you're enjoying the spring i hope
uh lots of good fortune is coming to you
over there in the heart of europe and
mark
now that we've done a big shout out to
our listeners i feel that it is only
appropriate that we get into some of the
goodness
of
adam grant i think we got to get into
how we do think how do we think better
how do we overcome the overconfidence
cycle so mark lead the way where do we
go next well the first thing that we've
got to
understand is where that destination
will take us so first of all we've now
covered and reiterated this concept of
the dangers of falling into an
overconfidence cycle but good news
listeners is that there is a journey and
a destination to get into a better way
of thinking and that's called in adam
grant's world the rethinking cycle so
this next clip we're going to hear about
is how we can start to get out of that
over confidence cycle by thinking like a
scientist
to get ourselves out of an overconfident
cycle we need to think like a scientist
when adam grant asked world-renowned
scientist daniel kahneman how he reacts
when people find flaws in his research
danny's eyes lit up and he said it's
wonderful i get a chance to be less
wrong
great scientists like kahneman see ideas
and beliefs as hunches and hypotheses
that need to be tested
when they encounter data that casts
doubt on their hypothesis they get an
opportunity to discover new ideas and
better understand reality
when you think like a scientist your
opinions and beliefs are starting points
that you expect to revise based on
incoming data
grant says in preacher mode changing
your mind is a mark of moral weakness
but in scientist mode it's a sign of
intellectual integrity
in prosecutor mode allowing ourselves to
be persuaded is admitting defeat
in scientist mode it's a step toward the
truth
in politician mode we flip-flop in
response to carrots and sticks
in scientist mode we shift in the face
of sharper logic and stronger data
scientist mode oh my goodness me
this is being one of the truly biggest
aha
for myself in my work for my practice
is you know i grew up like guessing
solutions and product ideas
i certainly did that in
1997 when i launched an internet radio
station about
15 years too early but
the interesting thing here mark is if we
can just put our ego aside for a moment
every
bit of feedback or challenge that you
get for your idea
only helps it get better it's so zaha
did she's like
challenge is great just makes me better
it's so growth mindset taking on
adversity getting comfortable with
discomfort
it's it's all about it's helping you get
to a better answer and i love i love
what kahneman says who's one of
really a fantastic author
um and he says oh well you know
it's a chance for me to be less wrong
and what i love about that statement is
it's a chance to not only improve but
he's just saying rather than to be more
right and better than everyone he's just
saying uh this is a chance for me to be
less wrong
so i like both this continuous
improvement theme but what's kind of
nice about that quote was it's super
humble and he's he's very detached from
the idea of being a reflection of
himself isn't he
yeah yeah you're right
he's detaching himself from
the
nobel prize winning i remember he he's a
pretty uh substantial in that economics
and and or
authorship space but the fact that he's
able to
in his own words have that open mind and
accept that feedback and the chance to
be proved wrong i think is pretty
inspiring mike isn't it and this concept
of thinking like a scientist
how how do you
um
challenge yourself or ensure that you
are regularly
i suppose accepting
feedback from others and the chance to
to improve your your your thinking as
well as your behaviors i'm fascinated to
hear how you apply it
well i think what i've learned is i used
to guess a lot as i was saying earlier
and now i want to
send up a trial balloon and
i'm very conscious of sharing ideas i
think that would be if you want to think
like a scientist start by like don't
hold on to your ideas you know those
people who say hey i've got a business
idea i want to tell you about it and get
all your feedback
but you have to sign an nda first
and you're like oh my gosh what decade
are we in right now
like
share your ideas the more you share the
more you're gonna get feedback and then
i would always take a breath and not
respond
with your gut reaction because that
might be your
um your flight or fight instincts right
kicking in and try and be like daniel
kahneman hey wow okay this is a chance
for me to be less wrong if what they are
saying is right the idea gets better
win-win if it is not
valid
upon inspection
well that has only given me the chance
to re-evaluate my idea and it passed the
test good right
so i think it's this um thing that
patrick lenzione
points out in his book the five
dysfunctions of a team
and that is this i opportunity
to create trust in a team so really
tough conversations can happen where
ideas can truly be challenged without
judgment without prosecution without
preaching or politicking it's just
good old-fashioned debate of the facts
and the insights and evaluating the
options for action
i think
this is the environment you want to
create and i would always
um when um having your own ideas and and
you're sharing them then the next thing
i would always be doing is asking
yourself where is the proof
and i i've told this story a lot on the
show that so many people come to me and
say i've got an idea for an app whatever
and i'm like okay how many people have
you tested this idea on and it's always
single digits
and that's just simply not enough if you
want to be a scientist go out and
validate with 20 50 100 people
now you're talking about some scientific
proof of uh and at least testing and
validating i mean this is what the lean
startup method is all based on a more
scientific method to validating ideas so
i don't know mark but that's how i try
to do it how about yourself
yeah i mean i
taking inspiration from a lot of the
references you've just said i i totally
agree
and the first step for me was
coming to terms with being able to
accept that that that feedback right and
and not to
respond in a
self-preservation
or
um defensive way you know when you do
um accept and when you're aware of the
the preaching the prosecuting and the
and the politicking behaviors and the
modes that we've just covered
i think you can start and also going
back to last week's episode with carol
and mindset
when you do have the capability to
understand
and be aware of your ego
and the pitfalls of having that fixed
mindset you can accept those pieces of
feedback
those data points those requests from
others and you're right that's only
going to get better based on that proof
that evidence
removing those gut reactions it's i
think you're quite right
yeah for me i mean if i want to be an
advocate of you know thinking like a
scientist as
you know adam grant outlines in his book
think again
for me what's so brilliant is when you
go out and test an idea
with third parties i mean you have to be
a little bit careful that you don't just
test with your inner circle whether it
be family or friends or a couple of very
close colleagues because
their tendency is going to be to say
yeah it's a good idea go out into the
real world intercept people and say hey
here's the thing i want your feedback
what's really fascinating for me is that
if you get feedback that the idea is
terrible then okay great let's make it
better and you know what i would sell
you on wouldn't you rather you know test
your idea early like that rather than
all of those mistakes that i was making
in inventory of
where companies made bad decisions
uh launched bad products and then the
implications the millions of dollars of
consequence that came out of this bad
thinking this overconfidence cycle
wouldn't you rather go out there and
just get a bit of feedback and get on
the right path earlier
in the process
to be building something that is better
that's going to help users more that's
going to be more viable as a business
like wouldn't you rather feedback that
either
says to you hey you've got a good idea
or b makes you a bad idea a good idea
either way it's a win-win but you've
just got to be objective about searching
out validation testing feedback of any
ideas and i think that really starts
with like don't hold on to your ideas
because ain't nobody giving you feedback
if they don't know about your idea right
i don't i like that don't be
closed to those those user feedback
because yeah that's how those ideas
products and so on are going to get
better
absolutely absolutely right so i think
the build on all of this that we can do
together with adam grant is that
once we open ourselves out once we share
our ideas
improve them or you know enjoy that halo
effect of validation
what we can do is we can create a whole
new cycle if we're pushing away from the
overconfidence cycle we can then get
into this whole momentum from the res re
kind of rethinking cycle so we're
thinking like a scientist and now let's
hear about how adam grant's book can
tell us about this rethinking cycle
start thinking like a scientist by
getting curious every time you
experience doubt
the moment doubt turns to curiosity you
have an opportunity to discover new
ideas and experience the joy of learning
by learning and improving upon your
ideas you gain confidence in your
capacity to learn while remaining humble
about what you didn't know and what you
still don't know
this is known as confident humility
doubt leads to curiosity which leads to
discovery which leads to confident
humility
this is known as the rethinking cycle
one way to keep the rethinking cycle
going is to update a note on your phone
that contains two lists
things i don't know and things i've
learned recently
when you review both lists you stay
humble but confident in your ability to
learn
adam grant's things i don't know list
includes art financial markets fashion
chemistry food and why british accents
turn american in songs and why it's
impossible to tickle yourself
another way to stay in the rethinking
cycle is to listen to podcasts with
people who make you think even if you
disagree with what they think
in the end
an overconfident cycle ensures you spend
your life defending outdated ideas and
refusing to learn well a rethinking
cycle increases your mental flexibility
and allows you to experience the joy of
learning
to avoid an overconfidence cycle
recognize when you're in preaching mode
prosecuting mode or politicking mode and
start thinking like a scientist to enter
a rethinking cycle
don't defend but find and cultivate an
experience that celebrates the joy of
learning i mean what a great
um call to action here mike the value of
learning is so significant isn't it oh
my gosh it is like the mega trend of
moonshots podcast mark don't you think
yeah
if if there's anything that we try and
do for our listeners mike it's learn out
loud yeah it's
leave every show having learnt something
new and i love that little tip that gets
called out in that clip keeping a note
on your phone or your computer
that
calls out two things one a list of the
things that i know
and the second the things that i don't
know i love the the idea of having the
mental clarity to accept the things that
you don't know
because then it for me at least it kind
of inspires me to maybe go out and and
research a little bit more you know for
example mike i might not know about
um
nutrition that well i might not know a
great deal about how to um
you know balance the way uh that i
consume food and so on in order to get
the most out of my performance you know
whether it's mental or physical so maybe
that would go on my things that i don't
know list and for me at least that would
inspire me to maybe take some time out
of my day to listen to a podcast or go
and research it online
there was a very good
moment in that clip where they talked
about this key opportunity
when
you don't know how that's an opportunity
and i i want to take us back there just
for a moment because i feel like
if there was one thing you could take
from this show
if we could get really focused on one
moment
it is when we feel like oh my god i
don't know i don't have the answer
and i feel like we have a choice we can
either be open to that feeling when we
have we have the thought and then we
respond emotionally we can
be optimistic
and curious or we can be negative and
shut down
and i feel that that might be the magic
moment mark
if we could take this entire show and
say do one thing as a result of this
show
all you moon shot is out there if you
could do one thing
one thing
i believe it's the choice of catching
yourself
when you're about to launch into
preaching prosecuting or politicking and
rather turning it into more of a growth
mindset and say okay cool
let's see how we can
take this on board learn it understand
it make the idea better find a solution
don't you think if we can catch
ourselves at that moment that's where it
all changes
yeah i think you're right carol
dweck was calling it out in the previous
show if you can
notice the triggers
that
showcase your
behavior falling into that fixed mindset
you can then
know how to react and you can go out and
grow and i think you're you're totally
right here this is one of the
fundamental lessons that that adam
grant's really calling out in the
rethinking cycle isn't it
if you do notice
uh maybe your consistent behavior
uh you can then
choose how to respond again mike it kind
of feels like we're going back to this
this ego isn't it this awareness of
knowing how you respond day to day
historically whether you fall into your
preaching you're prosecuting it's okay
we all do it right we all do it we all
do it yeah we all do it and and once you
kind of notice it i think after today's
show and and digging into think again
i feel a little bit more informed about
those different modes and because they
they feel pretty practical to me
i i feel like it's going to be a little
bit easier much like making that note on
your phone about what you know and what
you don't know it kind of
makes a practical or pragmatic list that
i can refer back to that then helps me
inform or at least direct or take
ownership perhaps
off how i respond and how i react
indeed
some big stuff here now beef we've
actually got one more clip and i know if
you're still listening to the show
you are indeed a true moon shotter
and to tease it out it's two of our most
favorite moonshot inspiring heroes
we're going to wrap the show up on that
but before that we want to invite the
hardcore moonshot is mark
we've got something we need them to test
to give us feedback we don't want to be
preachers and prosecute and politic
about our idea for a mobile app
so what do we want our listeners to do
matt
well listeners as we try and encourage
you to give us your recommendations on
on who to uh
enable us to go and cover and research
in future shows we want to invite you to
pop along to www.moonshots.io
and inform us
by signing up or not signing up in case
if in fact if that's the case
to our beta mobile application this
application will do three things it's
going to enable you to listen as well as
interact with the show you can vote for
future shows as well as get some
training and even coaching on some of
the main lessons and frameworks that we
talk about on the show but
as mike just said
we're not here to direct uh or inform
what we go out and create for you our
listeners we'd love to involve
yourselves we'd love to hear from you
and depending on how many people we get
signed up i think in last week's show
mike we decided on the nice round 100
listeners so everything's signed up
so depending listeners on your interest
and your desire to uh come and learn out
loud with us uh we'll go and create a
moonshot app for your smartphone in your
hop along yeah yeah definitely we'll
have it in your hot little hands
right just imagine you could
learn all the models you could interact
with the show you could vote up and down
for your favorite heroes for us to to
check in
so
whether you want simon sinek adam grant
michelle obama
you can vote them up and we'll do them
on the show because in the end we want
to build a product here that you truly
love and helps you to be the very best
version of yourself but where did they
go mark i jumped in i was so excited i
forgot to that you were about to say
where they go martin give them the
answer
pop along to www.moonshots.io
to find out more
super
well there we go we've got one more clip
don't we mark and uh come on tell them
who who is the batman and robin we shall
show up with the the batman and robin
two of our favorite moon shot is it's mr
adam grant and mr simon sinek the fact
that these two got together to discuss
adam grant's new book think again the
power of knowing what you don't know was
pretty special and i certainly enjoyed
digging into a lot of the things that
they had to say but mike we couldn't end
the show today without hearing a little
bit from the two of them discussing the
ideas of others so this last clip to
play us out on today's show think again
it's adam and simon talking about how we
should all aim for humility
there's a boris grossberg study of star
security analysts on wall street
and a general pattern is when you become
a superstar in the investing world you
immediately assume that the grass has
got to be greener somewhere else and now
you're worth more and so you get poached
by another firm and boris finds that it
takes on average five years to recover
your star status once you leave for a
new firm unless you take your team with
you
in which case there is no drop in your
performance and so part of what i see
there is if we take your surgeon analogy
you've got these surgeons who think
they're individual geniuses they
underestimate how dependent they are on
the people around them to be successful
and then they basically failed to
reconstruct the collaborative
environment the routines the
complementary strengths to offset their
weaknesses that made them great in the
first place
and so i wonder if if there's something
we can do to help people who think that
they're individual geniuses recognize
that they're much more interdependent
than they are independent in fact i
wonder if we could have a declaration of
interdependence not just a declaration
of independence yeah yeah this is
something i've talked about for a while
which is our country has over indexed on
rugged individualism you know that it's
not all about the me and the self and
the self-help and the like how do i get
ahead and you know like we have an
entire section of the bookshop called
self-help we have no section in the
bookshop called help others and you're
right you know no single human being has
ever achieved anything by themselves
even if it was just their mom saying you
can do this
you know there's always someone a
relationship that believes in us and i
completely agree and i think this goes
to humility bob gaylor who's the fifth
chief master sergeant of the air force
has my favorite definition of humility
he said don't confuse humility with
meekness his humility is being open to
the ideas of others which i absolutely
love
i like that a lot and so if i if i
overlay that on the brad owens work we
were talking about he would break
humility down into into three buckets
the first one is learning from others
which is exactly what that quote is
highlighting the second is appreciating
other strengths which you could probably
argue is a precursor to learning from
others and then the the third is
recognizing your own fallibility at some
level and realizing i don't have all the
answers
and i think the meekness part of it is
is the part that so many people get
wrong one day i was curious i looked up
the latin root of the word humility and
it turns out it comes from basically
from the earth is the latin root so it's
about being grounded right it's not
saying i can't do this and lacking
self-esteem it's saying you know what i
may have strengths but i have weaknesses
too i'm imperfect and because i might
make mistakes and i'm human i need to
learn from other people yeah they're not
mutually they're not mutually exclusive
ideas i mean we know people with huge
egos that are very humble and to your
point like they know they're good they
think they're good they're ambitious and
yet to all those definitions from brad
owens they're open to the ideas of
others they respect others and they're
very open about what they know and what
they don't know and where they need help
woof
cynic grant same room talking about how
to be the best version of yourself does
it get any better than that
no i don't think it doesn't learning
from others don't have that fixed
approach or that fixed mindset these two
are bringing it home for us on they
might yeah yeah
now of preaching prosecuting and
politicking which one are you gonna put
a special focus on avoiding
for me i think it's preaching
yeah you know going in with
perhaps a blind um a blind opinion and
putting the blinkers on you know this
this idea of and i like the the
connection and i just want to revisit it
as a final thought from my side mike
which is not only is preaching um an
external thing that you can do
to others but as you called out it can
also be a little bit more macro i can
preach to myself
and in doing so close my mindset to
other ideas that might come in from
other people i thought that was a nice
build yeah me too and it's funny funny
how that preaching relates to that last
clip about cynic and and grant just
riffing on it it's it's better together
right
it's better together because once you do
share ideas it can only it can only get
better one plus one equals three there
you go you got it
well mark thank you ever so much uh
we've kicked off a new series we've
kicked off with the latest adam graham
book i mean and it all comes back to
saying
thank you to rodrigo who recommended it
so thank you very very very much indeed
rodrigo
and
thank you to you all of our listeners
because it has been an absolute
rip-roaring uh kick-off to this new
series where we dug into the book
think again the power of knowing what
you don't know by adam grant he's a true
moonshot's favorite and he invited all
of us to think again to rethink our
underlying assumptions because in a
post-covert world
there's nothing else we can do because
so much has changed the very way that we
work has changed so go and change your
assumptions too
because that's all part if we don't it's
all part of an overconfidence cycle
where we are preaching our ideas we are
prosecuting we are politicking and
having an overconfidence cycle so we
don't want to be there we want our ideas
to be great so how do we do it well adam
grant paved the way first he said think
like a scientist
kick-start a re-thinking cycle where
you're open and curious in the moment
make sure you look for really good ideas
good data good facts and know that one
thing above and beyond all others is you
have to be humble you have to think with
others because if you think with others
not only will the idea be better the
decisions you make will be better and
you will truly be on the path to a
better version of yourself in fact as
all moonshotters are you will be on the
way to being the very best version of
yourself
alright that's a wrap of the moonshots
podcast
we'll catch you next time