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Tomorrow can be different from today.
Our lives often leave us feeling hopeless—like nothing will ever change. But perspective is everything. When you know where to look, hope can be found in the spaces and places you least expect.
Join Jason Gore (Lead Pastor of Hope Community Church) for a fresh perspective, practical steps, and weekly encouragement that hope really is possible… even in real life.
You might wonder sometimes maybe you're secure
and you're dating someone who you're like,
why doesn't they ever call?
Or Why does she like really seem to need me all the time?
Right. You know, like, it's maybe
because their attachment style's not so great.
Um, or not so secure. And so yeah.
Dating and then it can go into marriage,
it can go into relationships at work, you know,
and really needing that validation from your boss that like,
Hey, you're doing, you're doing well.
I don't know if I am. And just
feeling like I really need that.
Welcome to The Hope and Real Life podcast with Jason Gore.
Our team is passionate
and committed to bringing you more hope in the everyday
real areas of your life.
If this conversation and content is valuable for you,
please do us a favor, like, subscribe, and even share.
You never know how valuable it could be
to share a little bit of hope with someone else.
Let's get the conversation started.
Well, hello, hope and real life family.
So excited to be here for this episode
that I know is gonna be beneficial for so many.
If they will just stay tuned in.
I'm here with, uh,
sincerely a dear friend, and Lauren McCue.
And Laura, welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you. Yes, ma'am.
Uh, this week we are talking about, uh, this,
the working title here says, friends,
the real reason you struggle to make new ones.
Uh, but the idea is men as an adult,
making real friendships
and holding real relationships is a difficult thing.
Yeah. For a lot of different reasons.
And so we wanted to take some time to talk about it
and, uh, Lord, you are, um, well equipped to,
to lead us in that conversation.
But before we do that, I'd love, just for our guests,
for our listeners, why don't you just say hello
and let 'em know a little bit about yourself.
Well, hello, uh, I am Laura McKeen
and, uh, what do you wanna know about me?
I am married. I have two kids.
I am a mental health counselor.
I have known Jason, a little known fact for 22 years.
22 years. Yeah.
The longest of anyone else that's been on, uh,
a podcast episode for sure.
So you probably have a lot of stories,
so we'll be careful there.
But I, I was thinking about, I mean, we've, we've traveled
around the world, uh, doing ministry together.
Uh, I mean in Trinidad, like into Right Outta the Gate.
Yeah. Uh, we've seen a lot of things in,
uh, to say the least Yeah.
Over the last 20 years in the world of ministry for sure.
Um, okay. So let's, uh, let's do this, uh,
tell just a little bit about your, your career.
'cause now you as a mental health Mm-Hmm. Counselor. Mm-Hmm.
Right. Mm-Hmm. But let's back that up, you know,
even 15 years.
Like what, what has your professional career looked like
and what's led you to where you are now? Sure.
Um, well, I'll hope actually has been most of my career.
So I, uh, went to NC State. We both did right.
And then I graduated.
I graduated and, um, I was a psychology undergrad
and, um, got, didn't wanna go to grad school,
didn't wanna do the whole counseling, um,
thing at that point.
Um, but loved working at Hope, volunteering at Hope.
And so I got into children's ministry.
Then I did like six years there a year in Global Hope.
And then I went to Care Ministry.
And so Hope has a care ministry that allows you just
to really enter in when people are hurting
and just figuring out what support was.
And a lot of times that was leading people to counseling
and just kind of the partnerships that we have.
Um, so I always loved that,
but never really felt equipped to do the counseling part.
So I actually went back and got my master's and, um, then
after 17 years of being at Hope,
felt like the Lord was transitioning me into
full-time counseling.
And I've done that for Lana.
Yeah. A few things I wanna say.
Uh, one, uh, if it, when I know when you look at this title,
difficult to make friends, if you're a guy who's listening
to this podcast Mm-Hmm.
I know you because I am one. Alright.
You could be tempted to say, okay, that's probably enough.
And I wish I'd have said this in the first 30 seconds.
I'm telling you, even in this conversation
with Laura kinda leading up to this in pre-production,
like this is a topic that we desperately need to engage.
And, and I would venture as to say like,
until you really understand your relationships
or lack thereof, you're going
to have a difficult time experiencing
everything that you could in life.
And so, out of all the episodes, stay tuned into this.
Your friends, your family,
your coworkers will appreciate it, um, afterwards.
And then secondly, um, I just want to be able
to say it on the air for everyone to hear.
Um, I've known a lot of people, you were one
of the strongest, and I'm not gonna
say like one of the strongest women.
You are one of the strongest individuals
that I've ever had the privilege
to work and serve alongside of.
And so I'm grateful for you to be on here with us.
Thank Jason. Yeah, absolutely.
All right, well, let's jump in. Mm-Hmm.
Uh, and let's hear why, why is making friends
so difficult once we get outta college?
Yeah. Right. As if, as if I have all the answers.
That would be nice if I did.
If I don't, um, I think it's a lot of layers, right?
We're definitely living in a difficult time.
Um, I guess we, we consider to be
that individualistic culture, right?
We don't have, just by nature, we're just pretty isolated.
But then the pandemic really did us no favors in that. Yeah.
And so, um, I think it's hard social media.
We feel like we're connected,
but we're not really connected.
And so I would say that there's a lot of factors
that probably make us have challenges in,
in developing relationships.
Um, and I kind of see it as like if we picked up a bunch
of different, um, glasses
and you can say, okay, like if I look through these glasses
and that makes sense why it's hard.
And then if I look through these glasses,
this might be why it's hard.
Um, I think from a mental health side
that there's some different glasses we could put on
that aren't necessarily talked about a lot.
And so that's kind of my passion of just talking about
different things that might add to the difficulty in,
in really having relationships.
Yeah. Right on. Well, I mean, I think, uh,
since you are here, we should definitely talk about the
things that you're the most passionate about talking about.
So, um, uh, uh, without further ado, I mean let mm-Hmm.
Let's jump in. Yeah. What, what, what are some things
that you think, man, we can have our eyes open to
that might not be on the radar as it relates
to relationships and friendships?
Right. So there's something called attachment
styles that everybody has.
Um, and you fall into one of four categories.
Um, so you either have a secure attachment style
where you feel like you kind of know how to give
and receive love.
Um, you feel pretty stable in your relationships.
Doesn't mean relationships are perfect, just means
that you feel fairly secure in them.
And then there's the other part
that's falls in the insecure,
and that can kind of be divided into three categories.
One is anxious. And so those people
who have an anxious attachment style might feel, um,
a little bit more nervous in relationships.
Are they gonna leave me? Do they really love me?
Um, I really need them in my life in order
to feel okay in my life.
Um, and then there's avoidant.
Those people are more on the end, the end of the spectrum
where I really don't need people.
I'm pretty good on my own.
I've, I don't need to be vulnerable with you.
I can meet my own needs.
Um, and then there's disorganized,
which is actually a fairly, uh, less common one,
which is a little bit of a mix of both, where it's like,
I feel like I need you, but then I can't trust
you, so I kind of pull back.
Um, so statistics will tell you that probably, I mean, you,
you can find statistics to tell you whatever you want
to see sometimes, but it seems like in general they'll say
about 50% of the population will fall in the insecure.
So it's a pretty common thing.
Um, and it's hard
to have relationships if you don't feel
secure in relationships. Yeah.
Yeah. So, and I'm hearing that when you first said secure,
and then you kinda mentioned that I'm thinking there's
probably a good number of people that
automatically just thought, oh yeah, I'm secure.
I don't really need the other ones. I don't. Right.
But the, the reality is,
and you were saying this in the pre-production, um,
if you're prone to one of the other attachment styles,
that's, that's your reality.
So you don't know any different,
you just assume it's normal. Right.
And, and I also don't love the the title of Insecure
'cause who wants to be like signing up for that.
Um, and so I really kind of use the word like safe.
Like, I don't necessarily feel safe in relationships. Hmm.
Um, I don't, I don't feel like I can rely on them. Right?
Yeah. They're not secure in the fa fact
that I can rely on them.
Um, and so yeah, it's, it's hard
for people to kind of look at that.
But like I also said in the pre-production is
that you can't heal what you don't name.
And so if you're really, really regularly seeing
that maybe there are difficulties in relationships, you're
how I experience relationships,
it might be worth considering.
Like, is this a thing for me? Yeah.
Hey, if you currently are not connected to a church, or,
or maybe you're not sure about the whole faith thing,
or you, you gave up on church a long time ago, I want you
to understand like, church hurt is a real thing.
And so that's understandable, but you don't need
to miss out on the encouragement
and on the hope that that, that knowing Jesus
and being part of a community of believers has to offer.
So I wanna tell you about something here. Get Hope tv.
It's an online church experience
where you'll find engaging music, uh, a message
that's relevant to the everyday moments of your life.
Uh, and, and it's that that service is put on
by Hope Community Church.
And I hope our greatest desires that people would come
to know who God really is, would be able to walk in his ways
and, and find the ways to experience hope in the everyday
moments of our lives.
Listen, you don't have to have everything all figured out
to to tune in with us.
Uh, you can, even if you're meant you're at home.
So feel free, stay in your pajamas,
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but get Hope TV online Sunday mornings 9:30 AM 11:15 AM
There's even an option to join us on Saturdays at 4:15 PM
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Wherever you are, you're welcome.
We'd love to have you tune in with us at Get Hope tv.
Um, so I'm sure that we have some listeners right now
that kind of had the same sensation
that I had when I first kinda read your, your pre-show notes
and some of the things we're gonna talk about.
I was like, how, how does she know my life story
and what it that I'm struggling with?
And so, you know, I'm sure, so when you went through those,
I'm sure you kind of raised some long, some,
at least some eyebrows for some folks.
But what are some, uh, is, are there any tools or,
or any, um, I don't know, any exercises
that an individual could do
or some, uh, self-realization to actually determine, like,
are there one of these styles
that we might be more prone to? Yeah,
I mean, it's helpful to kind of look at your life
and like, what's, what's been taught to you in life?
'cause attachment cells are basically like your unwritten
rules for relationships, and you kind of learn those
as you go through relationships.
So most people don't like to look back at, you know,
childhood and like say, oh, it was all
because of, you know, the way that I grew up.
Um, and especially if you're a parent like we are now,
it's like you really hope that you're
not screwing up your kids.
Right? That's right. Um,
but contrary to many beliefs, counselors actually don't want
to make parents the bad guys.
Like, they just want to be informed on like,
Hey, what was this like for you?
And so, um, attachment really is primarily founded in the
way that you have relationships with your primary caregiver.
So if you had a mom or a dad or grandparent
or whatever, whoever was taking care of you,
and you kinda learn, not like just were my physical needs
met, you know, sometimes they were,
and they're like, okay, well then I'm secure.
Well, let's look at that. Right.
You know, like emotionally, what did,
what was taught to you?
Did, did your parents say like, oh, Hmm,
you're having a lot of emotions here.
You just go over there and you figure
that out and then you come back.
Um, or they just felt like you just felt like
you were too much in emotions.
Yeah. And so then you kinda have to figure out like, Hey,
I need to figure out that on my own.
Or sometimes there's some stuff that's just going on
with parents and they just don't have the bandwidth.
And it's not really because they don't want to,
it's just they don't either have the skillset
'cause they weren't ever taught, or
They got two jobs, they're both
working, they're trying to figure it out.
Right. And maybe there's multiple kids,
Another sick kid, like I've had, I've had clients who,
you know, a parent just had a really,
really terminally ill other child,
and their focus was all on that. Right? So
Yeah. Crisis will
throw us all for
Loop, right? And so
it's like, how do, what do you learn about that?
What do I, how do I need to emotionally process?
Who can I rely on and what am I learning about?
That's, that's kind of how you can start
to look at things like just being aware of
what did I learn when I was growing up?
And then throughout life, it's not just
that you can have some significant relationships
that can impact you.
Yeah. One thing I've learned that, um, not about myself,
of course, through counseling,
but through other people, uh, is that, um, your tendencies
or your proneness, while it is your reality Mm-Hmm.
That doesn't necessarily mean
that it's the best or the only way.
Mm-Hmm. And like you said, learning
where it came from Mm-Hmm.
And how it started and how you got there like that,
that's not to label you, but it's to help you.
Then now you can start kind of take some steps back
and realize, okay, now maybe I can build a new path forward
that's not built on the things
that I just assumed must be true.
Right. And it's also encouraging to know that, like,
just if as you look into attachment styles,
it's not the death sentence.
It's not like, oh, this is your permanent fate
and you're never going to be able to
break through from that.
It actually is really encouraging that, like,
they call 'em earn secure attachments.
And so like you can actually work towards feeling
really great in a relationship.
And so sometimes, um, if you're in a relationship
with a really secure person, they make you feel really safe.
And so you don't have some of those like triggers of like,
oh, I need to pull back, or I can't, I can't rely on them.
Um, or they're gonna leave me.
That stuff isn't really known as much
because they just like emulate like, I have this
or emit this, like, security that they really, really love.
So those are really great relationships,
but sometimes you just have to work on them.
So we're talking about making friends Mm-Hmm. Right.
And having community. But let's ask, can, can,
can attachment styles,
can they affect other relationships
in our life that we do have?
Like our marriages, for example?
Uh, does it play out in the dating life,
in the professional world, corporate world?
Maybe talk about some of that impact. Yeah.
Yeah. For dating. I mean,
I think it's really common, you know?
Yeah. Dating's hard. I'm glad I'm not, I'm passion
Done with that phase in my life.
Yeah. Um, so I think, yeah,
you might wonder sometimes maybe you're secure
and you're dating someone who you're like,
why doesn't they ever call?
Or Why does she like really seem to need me all the time?
You know? Like, it's maybe
because their attachment cell's not so great,
um, are not so secure.
And so yeah. Dating
and then it can go into marriage,
it can go into relationships at work, you know,
and really needing that validation from your boss that like,
Hey, you're doing, you're doing well.
I don't know if I am. And
just feeling like I really need that.
Um, or just being kind of loner at work
and just independent.
Nobody really knows you.
You show up, you do the job, and that's all you know. Yeah.
So you can see in that. And then also I think even in the
spiritual sense, like a relationship with God,
I think you can definitely see some impact. We're
Gonna take a brief break from our show
to let you know about a new resource
that we have just for you.
If you're looking for a resource on personal development
and spiritual enrichment, then we have something for you.
It's called the Hope in Real Life mobile app.
Uh, this app is made specifically for our listeners
to anyone who's looking
for a bit more hope in everyday life.
The Hope in Real Life app offers multiple features like
daily devotions, parenting tips, financial resources,
marriage insights, and a community
where you can share prayer requests
and know that others are praying for you.
You can download it now in the Google Play
or Apple App store, wherever it is that you would go
to download applications.
This is a resource that we've created for you.
Can't wait for you to jump on it.
Tomorrow can be better than today
and hope is possible even in real life.
Let's get back to the show about that for a moment,
because that was something I know that all
of our listeners aren't, um Mm-Hmm.
Um, necessarily at church every weekend
or all sharing the same faith beliefs.
But that was something that came out
of you when we were talking in pre-production.
So talk about that a little bit.
Like how do these attachment styles impact our ability
to really pursue a relationship with God
or feel, um, comfortable with insider relationship with God?
Talk about that for a minute.
Yeah. Well, I think with Christianity,
Christianity specifically,
like Jesus is a personal God, right?
So it's not just like, okay,
there's this far off dissent God.
It's like, Hey, he actually wants to be part of my life
and it's this intimate relationship.
And so that can be really intimidating for some people.
It's like, you know, I don't really need that.
I don't want that. Like, you know, people
who have more avoidant style, if they're in a relationship
with God, they sometimes have troubles expressing needs
to God or relying on God,
or trusting that he's gonna show up for
how he says he's going to.
Right. Um, and then those with anxious,
sometimes they just don't really
trust that God does love him.
Did I do something that's like, taken me too far?
Can I be forgiven of this? It's, it's too much.
Um, so it definitely has a play in how
you see Jesus at least. Yeah.
Um, and, and I,
and I'll just tack onto that, you know, and, and we'll move on.
But I would say to our listeners, if you're out there
and you're like, I, yeah, that's me.
Mm. Like, I just, I think I have done too much.
I think I have gone too far.
Um, or, you know, I, I can, you know, I can give praise
to a God who's great, but I, I don't really believe he wants
to meet me in my mess.
And, and by the way, if that's you, I get it.
Um, but I want you to know that that's,
that's not the God who created us.
And there is a God that loves you
and that wants to step with you into
where you are in your life.
And you're not going to fully know
and experience that until you're
willing to go down that journey.
And so if we can help you in any way, you know, in any way
that is, contact us on whatever social media platform,
you know, obviously would love to follow
up with you and help you out.
So, um, let's see, where do we want to go with this, man?
How about, how about, um, resources, just engaging this,
if somebody wants to say, Hey,
let me take this a little bit further.
You know what? Hold the phone on that one.
Let's, let's not go to resources yet. Sure.
Talk about, 'cause one that we kinda hit,
and we'll pretend like I'm not pulling the
curtain back on myself here.
All right. And so hypothetically,
let's say there was somebody
that couldn't really put the pen to paper on which one
of these were, but say they had, um, an attachment style,
or maybe it's not an
attachment style, but it's like, you know what?
Relationships are hard for me
because I just don't want to be let down.
Mm-Hmm. Like, I've seen, maybe somebody's seen
some things from some people growing up,
and then maybe say hypothetically then some other things
happened in college, and then let's say hypothetically they
ended up getting, and they were
professionals and they were adults.
Yeah. And then there's people that they looked up to
and then they let 'em down.
Mm-Hmm. And then, so maybe let's just say hypothetically,
you know what, it's just a lot easier
to not depend on anybody or to not trust on anybody.
And sometimes it's easier to labor alone in the cold
and in the dark than it is
to really make yourself vulnerable
to trusting even one more time.
Yeah. Any thoughts on that, hypothetically? Of course.
I, you know, I'm not obviously.
Yes. Um, there was a, a great quote,
I wish I had my phone, but, uh, it was just talking about
how relationships are not meant to be easy.
They're meant to be fulfilling.
So you could totally go, not you the, the hypothetical.
Right, right. Yeah. And I'll let 'em know. I'll let 'em
Know. Just pass it on. Yeah.
Um,
you could totally just allow that to be the case.
I'm just not gonna rely on people.
People stink sometimes and they let me down.
And so you could go to that end of the spectrum,
but that wouldn't really be super fulfilling.
Um, and so that quote was just saying like,
they're not meant to be easy.
Uh, they're meant to be fulfilling.
Um, but sometimes you don't know how to have that
and it's gonna take work and your kitchen's gonna get dirty.
Like, you know, like, it's gonna be challenging,
but I think at the end of the day when you don't
have that, you feel lonely.
Yeah. It's like God created us for relationship. Yeah.
And there's something innate that we just know,
like it's, this isn't right.
I could choose this, this could be,
I could put up all my walls and all my guards,
and I could live nice and safe on this side,
but I'd feel alone and I would miss out on the joys
that I think actually are meant
to be in healthy relationships. Yeah.
Yeah. And so I, I'll just, I'll piggyback on that
and I'll say, you know,
this podcast is about bringing people hope in real life.
Mm-Hmm. We know that there's, um, someone in multiple, many,
many, hundreds and thousands of men and women
and students that are walking around the world right now
that are lacking in hope.
And I do know, we know as a team, you know, a large part of
that is because they are lacking a,
a real healthy community Mm-Hmm.
Around them. Mm-Hmm.
And, and I'm just like, all joking aside, I'm a guy
that man, it's, it's hard.
It's hard for me. Mm-Hmm. And there's reasons why it's hard.
And then some is just probably sheer laziness.
And sometimes it's easier to stand by yourself. Mm-Hmm.
But man, we're not as hope filled of a people.
We're not hitting on all cylinders if we don't have the
relationships in our lives that we need.
Yeah. And so we've gotta be willing to do this work. Mm-Hmm.
Um, let's, let's jump to resources then. Mm-Hmm.
Um, books, podcasts. What do you think?
Somebody says, okay, fine.
Yeah, I'll try to take a step in opening up
and in furthering my relational
connection with others in my life.
What, what do you got resources?
I know I'm biased 'cause I am a counselor,
but I do feel like this is work that's hard
to do independently.
Yeah. It's hard to do where I just read a book and then I,
or I just look at this post on Instagram
because you need someone to reflect back
to you ask you the questions.
Right. Dig out things.
So my main resource would be like, Hey, if you, if you think
that this is hard, and I'm not sure why it's hard, um,
avoidance tend to not want to go
to counseling makes a lot of sense.
Right. It's like, 'cause then I'm gonna have
to be vulnerable, and then I'm gonna have to say
that there I have a need and that something's wrong.
Um, and so they don't like that.
But you can have an earned,
secure relationship with your counselor.
Yeah. And it would be great. Um, so I would think
that this is better done in a relationship environment.
Um, but there are resources, there's a great book.
It's called Attached. It's like a very, um,
user-friendly book to read.
Uh, and it kind of gives you a lot of examples
so you can kind of get to know these
high attachment cells better.
And then if you are on, uh, the social media, Instagram, uh,
Social media, the tiktoks. Right.
Um, I think she's actually on, um, Facebook too,
but it's called The Secure Relationship.
Okay. And, um, I've coworker introduced me to that
and everything that I've seen seems to be pretty spot on.
Um, so it can kind of give you a lot more examples, uh,
so you can learn a little bit about it.
Okay. And we'll make sure that all
of those are listed in the show notes as well.
Sure. And, um, yeah. Okay. Well, let's do this.
What, so you got me knowing that okay, we've listened
to the audience and we just know intellectually,
like we need to have a community around us.
We need to be able to take those steps
to develop the relationships and making friends are hard.
Um, I've taken my best swing at this thing.
What, what question have I not asked that you're like,
Jason, this is the question you should be asking.
This is the topic we should be talking
about. Oh my goodness.
That's a, that's a tough one.
Um, within relationships, um, I think
the goal of you being the healthiest person that you can be
for yourself impacts everything in your life, right?
Mm-Hmm. And it impacts how you navigate the world.
And so, um, we don't live in this kind of world that like
slows down and considers, how am I feeling?
What am I thinking? Like, we are not touchy-feely.
We don't like that kind of stuff.
But it, there's so much value in it.
And I, it's really cool to see, to get to watch what, from
what I did at Hope, where I really did a lot more
of the triage intake.
And then, hey, you go and you go to counseling
or you go to this resource.
And I didn't necessarily always get to see the, the process,
but being in the counseling room, I can see the way
that when people invest in time just to slow down
and to consider how they can become the healthier,
healthiest version of themselves, it actually does matter.
They joy is reignited
and, um, things that were broken get healed.
And that's just something I'm always going to want
to encourage people to do,
even though it's not a really popular message. Yeah.
I know. Okay. Well, let's do this.
I, I'd love to give, uh, our, our audience just a little,
just, and we know we started out talking about your life,
but maybe a little bit more of a snapshot Mm-Hmm.
As to who you are. And so, uh, this season I'm asking all
of our guests the same question.
Um, what are you most hope filled about
in your life right now?
Um, I mean, honestly, Jesus is the, the hope that gives me
the most, um, substantial hope that I can count on.
Because I don't know, you know, I know we've been friends
outside of this, there's some tough things
that go on in life and, you know,
I've had some family members
that are struggling health wise,
and it's hard to put your hope in anything else.
Yeah. Doctors, you know, medication, things like that.
And so I feel very hopeful filled that if I had a tagline,
Jesus doesn't waste pain.
And so I know that it's never for not,
and so I feel very hopeful that he is the same God
that he is always been, and he's gonna be faithful.
So there's your churchy answer,
but that's your, but that's genuine.
Hey, we ask for a reason. Yeah. And, uh, so yeah.
I mean, I can, I can sincerely say and, um,
and through a lot of challenging times that, that I know
that you've walked through, I can say for me personally,
that I've walked through, um, man, I,
I just haven't found anywhere else I can go Yeah.
That I can find the same steadiness and faithfulness
and honestly security Yeah.
That, um, in my brokenness, I just don't know
that I believe I'm gonna get Yeah.
In other relationships. So.
Well, um, we're gonna have stuff in the show notes,
we'll have everything there for, for folks to, to look into.
Anything else that you would encourage our folks towards
as it relates to relationships.
I think we've hit everything. Yeah.
Just put yourself out there a little bit.
You know, you can't expect relationships just to happen.
Like just test the waters to see like,
is this person who's regularly in my life, someone
who maybe I should take a step towards
getting to know a little bit more.
Um, because it's not gonna change
if you don't make any action.
People aren't knocking down doors to be your friend.
And so it does take some personal responsibility.
So, um, figure out what's already going on in your life
and how you can take me just one small step.
I know. Well, Lord, thank you so much for your time.
Mm-Hmm. And thank you for joining in with us to, to do all
that we can do to bring hope into the everyday real
moments of our listeners' lives.
And, uh, I know
that we will have you back on the show very soon,
but, um, can't thank you enough.
So appreciate the work and, uh, thankful that you're chasing
after what it is that God has in front of you.
Thanks to you all.
Thanks for tuning in this week,
and we will see you on our next episode
of Hope in Real Life.
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of The Hope in Real Life podcast.
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