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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (02:39)
Megan McGuire, how are you?
Megan Maguire (02:41)
It's good to see you again.
Tom Hootman (02:42)
It's good to see you again. I feel like you and I have talked a few times where we're sharing agency stories and you've been a great help to Mixtape Digital. ⁓ But at the same time, we come from a similar background where hair's on fire, agency world, crazy teams, crazy business, crazy clients, crazy hours. You've spent a long time in agency. You've been at SVP senior levels.
We've talked recently about you stepping out on your own. So I'm just going to open with it, right? in a market where people are like agencies are shrinking and people are unfortunately out on the market looking for roles and they're being pushed for lack of better term. You jumped.
Did you like talk to me about that? Did you have trepidation? What made you decide to jump? honestly, like, do you regret it? Are you happier than ever? What's, talk to me. Right out of the gates, my friend.
Megan Maguire (03:26)
⁓ God. I think
I'm probably crazy if we want to start with that, ⁓ because it did feel a little bit like who the hell leaves a steady job in this market. But it was, for me, somewhat of a long time coming. It was something that was just kind of...
kind of niggling at me for a period of time where things just started to feel like, I'm not.
I'm not getting as much out of this role, this universe that I was for such a long period of time. And so I started talking to colleagues and friends and my husband about what would it be like to take a different path and to choose something different? do I regret it? Absolutely not. Do I feel...
anxiety on a very regular basis about what the hell I'm doing. Absolutely. I think that's part of the game. But the payoff of being able to kind of create your own structure and
choose your own adventure and realize that some of the craziness that comes with working at big agencies and some of the craziness that frankly, I'm sure you can relate to this, it kind of fuels you for a period of time. It fuels you until it just doesn't.
doesn't have to be that way. You can kind of create your own crazy and hopefully it's the right type of crazy. It's fun and it's more about the hustle and delivering good work and less about some of the things that big agencies I think have a reputation unfortunately of bringing to the table the politics and the red tape and not being able to get to a solution quick enough and all of that stuff.
Tom Hootman (05:06)
Yeah, I mean, the politics
and the red tape, think that it's and I'll say the same thing, a lot of it was self-imposed, right? Like, and I and it was like I made the jump for me. It wasn't like. This is soul crushing. They're great people I work with and they really do impeccable work. But ultimately, I decided like, hey, like I wanted to write another chapter of my story. And I think you touched on it. You talked about your own crazy because I.
Megan Maguire (05:21)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (05:29)
I've replaced it with my own crazy. Like I'm working more than I've ever worked before. I actually posted on LinkedIn about how my wife, Amy and I were on a walk and she was like, I've never seen you work more since we've met in the nineties. And at the same time, it's kind of obnoxious. You're in such a good mood. you're like weirdly have like a pep in your step. And it's funny because my coach who's amazing, she's wonderful immediately reached out to me and was like,
We got on a call and she was like, hey, I'm worried you should watch out for burnout, mister. And I was like, no, no, no. Trust me, I know. This is different. It's just different. Now granted, are there days where I'm like, oh shit, what the fuck did I do? Yes. But the vast majority, 99 % of the time, I'm like invigorated by it to a certain extent.
Megan Maguire (06:15)
Yeah, because if you've spent this long at big agencies you there's one thing that brings us all together and it's this weird love of putting in really long hours and deliver like it just pushing yourself and being kind of like your backs up against the wall can we figure it out and suddenly being in that same position but doing it for yourself feels a different type of scary but just totally totally invigorating as you said
Tom Hootman (06:38)
Yeah. Were you someone that, and I'm speaking from my heart here, were you someone that enjoyed saving it? Like my whole thing was like, I enjoy being the person who saves it. Like I like a little bit of crisis management, a little bit of, okay, it's broken. Let me dive in and see what I can do to help.
Megan Maguire (06:54)
Yeah, without a doubt. I feel like this is almost a therapy session, though. But it's 100%. And I think that that's something that made me really successful.
Tom Hootman (06:58)
Yeah, no, let's unpack that.
Megan Maguire (07:06)
⁓ in my career in the agency world. And I think particularly I worked at a number of independent agencies, small to mid-size agencies that have a reputation of a particular type of sensibility and work. A lot less red tape, but oftentimes a little bit more intensity from executives and the way things are run and something like that. And I made it my mission in life to protect my team.
from things that I felt like were maybe things that they didn't need to be involved in that were just kind of outside of the normal work environment. And to try to create just this little like pocket of sanity and fun and work ethic and part of my role at my agency when I started, we started to launch a new office for them which is an incredible opportunity. I still so, so grateful that that was entrusted in me to do.
And part of the piece of it that was so fun was to be able to, you you plant your flag and as you're hiring new staff to be able to say, I'm going to create something in the vision that I want it to be. And was able to do that to a point and then, you know, there is a limit to how much you can do because it's not your agency. It's not your name at the door or on the door at the end of the day and then you reach this point.
Tom Hootman (08:22)
Yeah.
Were you ever like having like there's a freedom in that like to be able to establish a new office. Did you ever feel like.
you wouldn't make a decision, like you would make a decision in what you thought that the parent company or that your C-suite wanted versus your own decision. Or did you always feel like you had the freedom to move about as you saw fit?
Megan Maguire (08:41)
I think not necessarily that I wasn't making decisions anticipating how things needed to happen, but there were certainly decisions that I felt needed to be made that weren't being made or things that were being pushed forward that I ended up having to be kind of the mouthpiece for. And I will say I don't fault that agency or any prior agency for that because that's part of the
the role of being in senior leadership and unless it is your company, then at the end of the day, somebody else does get to make the decision for what's best for that particular agency. But I think as we've talked about before, there comes a point.
that if you start to question it more than you're believing in the decisions that you're making, then that's on you at the end of the day. And that's maybe when it's time to take a pause, pivot, think about something different. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (09:37)
Yeah, there's a balance, I think, right? And it sounds like there's
I, I got great advice from someone years ago, way outside of digital marketing, where they had a I took the role of a former supervisor, and I just asked them, like, tell me why it didn't work, you when you're like the third or fourth person to get the job, and everyone else is gone, you're like, what, what was the fault? Like, what, where did they lose you? And one of these sales reps said to me, that the
the biggest mistake a previous supervisor had made was they took every decision from corporate and sold it as their own. Like full bore, I believe in this, let's do it. And what I learned from that was that sometimes context, sometimes you just add context because we're all just people, people making decisions. There's not like, and I'm a big believer in like, there's no nefarious person. There's no like,
forces aligning against us out there. It's just a bunch of people making decisions and everyone's trying to figure it out. No one's out to get you. Everyone, if anything, they're not thinking about you at all. And that's another problem, right? But like, there's an element of like just some context behind the decision that I still believe in this, but here's how this this came to be that I think helps people.
Megan Maguire (10:32)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yep, I think that that's absolutely right. you know, every everybody has their own burdens and the roles that they're in and their own opportunities in them as well. And it's very easy in certain positions to say, you know, if you're a senior leader at a company, it's easy to come in and say, I disagree with, you know, what this company is doing. And yeah, sure, there's going to be certain instances where it's correct. But at the end of the day, like
those decisions don't fall to you. And so I think when you take a step outside of that and suddenly it is your company, your brand, you realize, wait, there is a degree of like, I don't know, there's a degree of responsibility that comes with that, with not being able to be the one that questions it. If that makes sense. There's a balance in both, but I absolutely agree that that rule of being.
honest and as transparent as you possibly can and it's okay to be able to say to a team, this is the way that we are doing things and this is important, but I understand why you might be questioning it in this way and this is why this is, you I'm here to answer questions for you.
Tom Hootman (11:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, I honestly, think there's that's a roadblock or a hurdle that I've seen that I've seen people promoted into senior leadership run into is that when you come up through the ranks, you still have a lot of friends in the the org. And it's really easy to fall into the trappings of this is bullshit. But we got to do it right. And like that, that loses that not only does that that doesn't build credibility with you.
that actually creates like a dissension and a chasm between like what you're trying to do for the org and what needs to be done and pulling the team along because if everyone's like, yeah, you get it. There's an element of like you're still being their friend and it's like we can still be friends, but also like I can give you context and lead you at the same time.
Megan Maguire (12:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. How are you making that balance now that it's your name on the door?
Tom Hootman (12:37)
Whose podcast is this? I'm kidding. You
know, what's hard for me, the biggest thing I've been battling has been I have a tendency to operate on two poles where I tend to gloss things over a bit and you have to be positive, right? It's like you're a steadying force and there's a ton to be positive about. And then I realized that I've done this through my career at every level, at every stop.
I tend to over context and, I don't like deliver like, Hey, this needs to change today. Just so I'm clear, like here's something that needs to change. So I'm either like, I think I'm giving direction and my team feels like it's a conversation.
Megan Maguire (13:14)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (13:20)
Or, and then what happens is I clamp down too hard on the other side and the team's like, Whoa, what's what's up with you? Like, why are you being like, you're in it. Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed, right? There's an element of like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And it's like finding the balance of like providing context, but also being clear about here's how this needs to work. And I mean, to the point, even that I'm, I'm I've hit.
Megan Maguire (13:33)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (13:44)
I've hit some low points where I'm even watching Instagram leadership reels, which is like the worst place in the world to get advice. But it's like, ⁓ like how, like starting sentences, like here's what I know and here's the situation and here's the desired outcome. And desired outcomes have been like a new thread that I've been running toward about like dictating what the desired outcome looks like more efficiently and clearly at the onset. Because what ends up happening is, and I'm guilty of this,
Megan Maguire (13:50)
You
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (14:10)
so many times, I still do it. I'll feel like I like on a deck, we have a pitch deck, I'll push it out and I'll be like, hey, everyone, here's what I need. And then what comes back isn't quite where I need it to be. But I don't give feedback and check in regularly. So when do I look at it? The day before at 8pm. And then I'm like, closing the door at 8pm. And I'm like, Amy, I'm sorry. I'm gonna work on this for four hours.
Megan Maguire (14:23)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (14:32)
And then I get the butcher knife out, right? And then I'm like hammering down this deck the night before, which causes anxiety. So like finding that balance I think is key. And it's like owning context as a founder that's easier to own context when you're a manager or leader within a larger org. Really, really a lot easier because you're at the end of the day, you're like someone else's decision. But like when someone's like, what do you want to do?
Like I can't go like I can't go to someone else. It's I've got to make a decision which is hard Yeah Let's talk about something positive You have a ton of experience you have a ton of success What's your what's your greatest hit that you're most proud of that no one ever asks you about I and I'll give context I always had one of my favorite interview questions if you're an NBA basketball fan is like what is your Jordan flu game? Right like Michael Jordan
Megan Maguire (14:57)
Yeah, it's you at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. Totally different.
You
Tom Hootman (15:19)
had the flu in the NBA finals and some people argue it's a hangover, whatever. He was dehydrated, he could barely walk and he goes out and he drops like 40 on the jazz and just buries them. And he had no business having a night of his life and he did. What's that moment where you had no business winning but you pulled it out?
Megan Maguire (15:29)
Mm-hmm.
So I have two that I can share. One is going to be marketing related and one is not. The marketing related one is ⁓ going kind of in the way back machine in my career. worked out one of the.
nation's first influencer agencies. We didn't call it influencer at the time we were working with mommy bloggers. We were a startup in the social media space and really at the forefront unexpectedly of what has become this huge industry. And so because of that, I was probably 24 or 25 running solo a bunch of campaigns for, you know, Fortune 500 companies, Kimberly Clark, CPG, all of these brands.
My partners on the brand side were also probably 24 or 25 because it was, you know, the 2008 and they were like, ⁓ let's let the post college kids handle social media. They know what they're doing. We did not. And we ran what I think is the first influencer campaign for Ralph Lauren, which at the time felt
just really special and unique and different. were partnering with just a really brilliant brand manager that saw potential and...
saw what the industry could be. And so she was pulling all the right strings on her side to make a program that was creatively driven, that went beyond just having influencers get a product and write a review. There was this whole integrated advertising campaign baked into it. And for
my piece outside of just the exposure of running the day-to-day of that program, we planned an event for them at the time. It was called Blog Her. It was like this huge, huge influencer blogger conference that every big brand was at at the time. And what this became was like the event of the night. And I was working hand-in-hand with this marketing manager, this brand manager to
deliver this event, which events, you've ever run them before, are chaos, even if you know what you're doing and are doing things well. And I will say, there was no shortage of me being well-intentioned, of me working late hours, but there were definitely mistakes that happened throughout that period of time, because that's what happens when you put a 25-year-old...
Tom Hootman (17:37)
You
you
Megan Maguire (17:53)
at the helm. But I think the reason that it felt like such a win was it just it went off without a hitch. It was that buzz-worthy event of the entire conference and feeling like I did something that
I don't know, that paid off in a really big way. I was just really proud of the work that got delivered and it was just so cool to see a brand that was embracing this entire new industry and doing something different. It sparked a lot in me of what could be next.
Tom Hootman (18:21)
Two things I love about that. Number one, you mentioned it early on. You had someone on the client side who believed in it, right? So like, we talked to clients a lot and there's like, there's a lot of great client relations. Like you just kind of know immediately someone who gets it and is like going to partner with you. And the way I like to put it is that if we're presenting internally, they straddle our side of the table as well.
Like they understand their role as the senior client contact to help be the liaison, the host, so to speak. And there are lot of clients that, and again, clients don't have a view through into how other clients act or behave. What makes a great client versus a client that struggles. I think there's a lot of clients who will bring you in and then immediately sit on the other side of the table with their bosses and be like, yeah, why is it like that? And you're like, oh, wait, we were friends, but we were friends before. So like having someone who buys in like that.
is incredible. Number one, it empowers you. And then number two, to me, it's like the, like we just talked about why you jumped out and why I made a change. you kind of, it's an unfortunate side of scale. Like when you work with large, large brands, like self-protection kicks in and like everyone's just trying to work on their remit and like what they need to do today. And I think you find fewer and fewer.
Brands and teams on the agency side when there's so many moving parts everyone's just kind of focused on their little their little niche their little their little pocket and you don't have a it's harder to find those clients who were like hey Let's do something different and you can talk about doing something different But when there's 12 people on both sides, you know, it's going to get diluted to shit and end up being something boring It's the whole joke about the Cracker Barrel rebranding and like how brands are gonna start rolling some brand like some agencies gonna have a POV on it next week and you're like too late
Megan Maguire (19:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so before, before getting into my professional nine to five, I worked in restaurants.
Tom Hootman (20:02)
It's done. It's done today. Bye. It's over. ⁓ What was the other one?
Megan Maguire (20:16)
And I spent the summer working on Martha's Vineyard and for a period of time was dubbed by my colleagues the lobster queen of Martha's Vineyard because I sold the most lobster specials of the entire night within like an hour. And we're talking about like five pound, four pound lobsters. And aside from this just being like a ridiculous, potentially a lot more fun story than I worked on a marketing event for Ralph Lauren, I...
Whenever I'm talking to new hires, potentially more junior new hires, I always want to know a little bit more about the work they did before they sat in front of a computer all day. working in restaurants continues to be something that I look back on as such an important foundational grounding for the type of worker that I am today. So everything from work ethic, like,
Busting your ass dealing with all sorts of different type of people the politics of working internally And just essentially solving people's problems like and it's when you break it down and when you get Good at that. It feels amazing
Tom Hootman (21:19)
I didn't know you worked in restaurants. So like this feels like a plant, right? Because you know, that's like my background. And that's always been something that I've looked for because I'm lobster queen number one lobster queen of what was it lobster? Lobster Queen of Martha's Vineyard is is not a title to sleep on my friend. And that should be on your LinkedIn.
Megan Maguire (21:30)
Martha's Vineyard.
Okay.
Tom Hootman (21:38)
Because number one, it'll be buried so far down in your experience that you should just change it to lobster queen of Martha's Vineyard. Because it'll teach you who reads the actual, like who goes down that far. Like if you've read this far, right? Like you'll find out I was lobster queen of Martha's Vineyard. I love it. But for me, all of my good friends, like the best friends in my adult life that I still have today are from the Chi Chi's Mexican restaurant days. And...
Megan Maguire (21:44)
That's Yep, it's a plant.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (22:01)
It is, was an insanely busy restaurant. to this, like I was being able to like weave into the teams I manage now. And I still have former Brainlabbers who reach out to me and like, Hey, we're just making tacos here because there's a story I actually put on LinkedIn about how everyone like it was so busy. People would just break down crying, like overwhelmed. And we, and I remember pulling people like we would pull them in, come into the break room with me, smoke a cigarette because everyone smoked. And it would be like, Hey, we're just making tacos. It's literally tacos.
Megan Maguire (22:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (22:29)
It's all good. And
Megan Maguire (22:29)
Yep. Yep.
Tom Hootman (22:31)
there's an element of like, once you've lived through that and you have, like it just develops EQ, sense of urgency, teamwork. You got to run someone's food. We got to bail them out. Someone's in the weeds. I got them. Like it just brings people together in a way I think that is different that, and I hate to be like this, like an elitist restaurant employee if there's such a thing, but like until you've been in the shit and you're on a two and a half hour wait and the tickets are stretched to the floor.
Megan Maguire (22:51)
You
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (22:56)
and cook
times are 55 minutes, like you haven't lived through it. Like it just teaches you something different. I love that you shared a restaurant story. You just made my day. Absolutely made my day.
Megan Maguire (22:59)
Yep.
Yeah. ⁓ it's, yeah, it's
a different type of chaos, but it comes up all of the time and I have such respect ⁓ for, and I don't think people talk about it a lot of times in junior interviews, because they're trying to tell you about all the, you know, whatever, the editing that they've done or like those internships and stuff. like, I want to know about the actual hard stuff you've had to do, you know, that made you who you are.
Tom Hootman (23:24)
Yeah,
it's funny because we're right off campus from Indiana University. And so I have a few folks who've come to me like for resume help, right? Because I work with the Kelly School of Business a little bit and they humble brag and they and like all the resume feedback. It's amazing how much they focus on internships, GPA. And it's like, hey, like I've never looked at anyone. The last thing I care about is your GPA.
Megan Maguire (23:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Tom Hootman (23:47)
Tell
me about what you've done. Tell me about something unique about you because you have something unique, right? Whether you were the lobster queen of Martha's Vineyard or you worked in a restaurant and everyone called off sick and it was just you, right? Have that story to tell because that tells me more about you than your GPA.
Megan Maguire (23:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, how did you handle crisis?
Tom Hootman (24:06)
So this could be from the
restaurant probably from your formative years in restaurant all the way through your professional career like
is there a habit, a principle, weird rule that you follow that shapes who you are that like helps you succeed that you feel like is very unique to you or that really comes up?
Megan Maguire (24:21)
Mm-hmm. Well, one of them that I think about is I one of my
uncles who is probably my closest uncle growing up, lived very close to me, spent a ton of time with him as a kid, was a house painter. So like really, really hard manual labor his entire life, an incredibly educated person that that's the path that he found for himself. And also a a very strong moral compass person, great guy to get advice from. He would say at different points, the peak
of his busy seasons, he was working by himself, contracted to paint the outside of a house, 90 degree days. Some people, which you can relate to in our world, some people want a project that they can pay for and some people want a project that they want to pay half the amount that it's actually worth. And he would take as many as he could.
I remember him talking at one time to another adult in the room about like, why are you doing this? Why are you killing yourself over this person who is not paying you enough? And his feedback was there's only one way to paint a house. And it's such a simple thing to say, but it's something that I've carried through to me, which really comes down to you do the best work all of the time. You bring your best foot.
like your best self forward as much as you possibly can. And I do think working independently, running your own agency, that's the type of thing that can really bite you in the butt because there are instances where, you know, 75 % is good enough. But at the end of the day, as a kind of a driving force in my career, the putting in those hours, you sitting down with that deck at eight o'clock at night and saying like,
No, this actually can be better. This actually, I'm gonna make the edits. It's gonna make my team go crazy because that's my job. It's made me the type of worker that I am today. And I think that the big takeaway of it is there's a portion of the work that we're doing at the end of the day that is, it's because a client needs work to be done. But the underlying...
piece of it is we are constantly learning and evolving and if I'm not bringing my best self in every single day and if I'm not pushing myself to say is this the work that I would expect of myself that I wouldn't be half as good at what I do right now as you know I hope that I am.
Tom Hootman (26:45)
You are. It's interesting that you just kind of giving me more advice. You're giving me more like advice and
like a pep talk. Whose therapy session is this now about that? When I talked earlier about the balance between like being clear and giving direction and like mutual understanding and desired outcomes versus feeling like I maybe might have given clear objectives, but then I didn't. And then hopping in the deck at eight, like there's an element of that that like forces you to like
It makes you clear of mind to say like, no, we can do better than this. And there were times I think when you work in a larger org, it's not as high stakes. And I think sometimes the high stakes makes things clearer to you. It makes it easier to say, hey, I don't wanna be a dick. And I think you're amazing, but we need to do better here.
Megan Maguire (27:19)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (27:35)
And it's, it's honest. There are honestly already moments where I've delivered that. And I think to myself, I wouldn't have delivered that before, before I left. I would have been like, all right, like either I'll shore it up and we'll just handle it. Or I would go to some like they're super like I'd have a big enough team. And part of it's like, when you have 110 people, it's easier to find someone else to like clean it up. But like when it's it's a smaller team, you're like, well, I can't afford to do it all. So and you're right, it bites you in the butt because I when you said bite in the back, like you're go a different direction like
Megan Maguire (27:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (28:03)
it's still in the early stages where like I have a connection to all of these clients. And having to like, when I was out for a week, when I tore my retina, it like forced me to like, I couldn't like, I couldn't look at a screen, right? And I came back really four and a half days later and it was great. Everyone did amazing. And it was like, oh.
Megan Maguire (28:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (28:25)
I need to get the hell out of the way more often. Like these are amazing people who I'm like, just like, is there a, the balance between like over coaching and like understanding, setting expectations and then just getting the hell out of the way.
Megan Maguire (28:26)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's so hard because it is it's it's your work products at the end of the day and it's not right because you've got this amazing team behind you. But if it doesn't work, it's your reputation. It's your
know, connection with that client that you sold them on something and, you know, it's not selling, it's this idea of like, made a deal and an agreement with this person on like a personal level really is what it feels like when you're citing those first, you know, partnership agreements. It's like you put your faith in me as somebody who's starting out doing this and I'm gonna promise you that I'm gonna kick ass.
Tom Hootman (29:13)
Yep. Something that's been,
I think that's tough is I've heard founders say like, it's my personal reputation on the line. And I don't agree because like if your personal reputation shouldn't be tied to the work that a team does, and if anyone is really truly your friend and a close associate, they should understand, right? Like anyone who, again, has the EQ and understands what it's like, knows that, hey, you weren't in the room. It's okay. Like you have to give it to your team.
Megan Maguire (29:29)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (29:39)
mistakes happen, it's no big deal. And I think that that's something that I'm like very conscious of where I say like starting this agency is like an A-B test. I'm like, is it going to turn me into a sociopath? We'll find out, right? Of like, can you let go and trust your team and then know that like another great sales thing I heard from one of these like Tom Carnahan, if you're out there, it's not if something's going to go wrong, it's how I react and we react as a company.
Megan Maguire (29:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (30:05)
when it goes wrong, because you just can't avoid that stuff. You just have to be able to react as fast as possible. And in the end, if someone is like, you've personally wronged me, they're kind of an asshole. Like, it's like, come on, really? ⁓ Along those lines, and I have a few of these, but like, what's a belief you held earlier in your career about success or performance that like, as you've...
Megan Maguire (30:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (30:27)
matured and as you've been, you've pulled in so much more experience that you now think is bullshit or realize was bullshit.
Megan Maguire (30:34)
⁓ The idea that success is linear and that careers are linear, and that's been a big come to Jesus for me within the last ⁓ five months of taking this plunge to do something different and to do something for myself. I think the idea that there's so much
Tom Hootman (30:34)
good.
Megan Maguire (30:53)
success online. When you look on LinkedIn, is just you're inundated with people sharing their biggest, like that's what the platform is, their biggest moments, their success stories, promoting themselves. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what we're all going to be doing later this week. But
It can leave you feeling, if you get kind of down in the weeds of it, it can leave you feeling like, what am I doing if everybody else is doing all of these crazy, know, crazy successful things? And I think in America also to like to take a wider standpoint, like we canonize CEOs as like this is the ultimate success you got. You're a celebrity if you're, you know, a successful tech, tech founder. And I think I, you know, I was talking with a very, very good friend who
you know, that one of these people that I go to for career feedback to gut check things. And she was saying, you know, you're looking at it like everything is always this straight path upward, that there's always like the next step is always going to be more successful than the last. going back to where we started in this conversation, usually it is if you're in an agency world, it's a hierarchical ladder-based, you know, organization. And so if you started as a coordinator and you're doing a good job, you'll get promoted to a senior coordinator or a
or whatever it happens to be and onwards and upwards. sometimes the most successful path for yourself or to get to something even bigger, you have to take a step that means that you are.
doing, I don't want to say less, but doing different things, making less money for a period of time or working with smaller clients for a period of time or just doing something that doesn't involve what you originally looked at as success, which for me meant I'm going to be working in front of a computer, checking in with people, reminding them of all the things that I'm doing for the company on a regular basis and really getting a lot of self satisfaction about that and knowing that
If that doesn't exist because you're doing something on your own, that's okay and that's a step towards success as well. But I would not have felt like that 20 years ago.
Tom Hootman (32:47)
that doesn't exist because you're doing something on your own. That's okay and that's a symptom of success as well.
Yeah.
It's funny, yeah, you know I identify with that, right? Like stepping out into this and like working with a different subset of clients, you learn to be part of a bigger machine. And it's really easy to take ownership of that. Like these are my clients and this is who I work with every day. And it becomes kind of like your identity. And in reality, you aren't doing shit to bring those clients in. Like you're taking care of them once they're in, but like they're not here because of you, right? And that's why I...
Megan Maguire (33:03)
You
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (33:25)
always argued, I don't argue, but I disagree with people who like, there's no one person like, you leave, this place is screwed. They're fucked. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Half of us could leave tomorrow, and the lights will still come on. And it's business as usual. And it's honestly, it's over the years, I've been a couple times I've talked to other agencies have been recruited. And I've and once someone said to me like, Hey, like, what logos can you bring over? And I was like, ⁓ we're done. Like,
Megan Maguire (33:36)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Tom Hootman (33:52)
It's not no, that's not how this works. Like if you're thinking I'm going to bring a logo over with me, number one, I'm way too above board to ever do that to my existing agencies. I'm going to damage that in like 15 years of history by stealing or trying to steal a client in the cover of darkness. And also like they are not going to follow me. I they shouldn't follow me. They have a team of 10. Like what? And also I'm the guy who is so far removed from the day to day. I don't have an impact like I have an impact on.
Megan Maguire (33:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (34:21)
overarching strategy and alignment and resourcing. And outside of that, like, I ain't running a campaign. So there's an element of that as well. Like, it's so easy for your belief system to be tied to this thing that's not even your thing.
Megan Maguire (34:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I used to earlier in my career think about success is working on those really flashy clients, having those campaigns that are talked about award-worthy. there is, mean, we've been there. You get some gratification in doing that. It's nice to have that stuff to think about, to reference when you're talking about your history on podcasts and on things like this. But at the end of the day, some of them, the
most successful client relationships that I've had.
are not clients that necessarily are household name brands, and they're not necessarily clients that I would have set on the onset. Like, I'm gonna be so fascinated and interested in this particular topic, but they're clients that were viewed, our relationship as a partnership, that were invested in doing something bigger and pushing forward that like everybody was working in lockstep together, and then you get to this really impactful, very cool,
work and I have a, I have actually a former client that I'm gonna see later today who's at a supply chain organization that if you asked me 10 years ago, is that the type of work that I wanna do? I'd be like, God no, like I don't even know what that is. But it's now one of, it's one of my favorite kind of in my.
Tom Hootman (35:44)
What does that do? Yeah.
Megan Maguire (35:50)
history, one of my favorite client relationships, some of the work that I'm proudest of doing, and it comes down to not just the output, and the output was phenomenal at the end of the day, the story that we went, or this journey that we went on together, but the client partnership was so strong. They believed in us, and they were trying to do the best possible work by us, and likewise, and the momentum you can build from that type of relationship. But it's a hard thing to tell somebody just starting out in their career that wants to go work on
Nike or, you know, one of these, you know, big super shiny brands.
Tom Hootman (36:20)
⁓ Yeah, I mean, you
see it on LinkedIn. I'm not calling anyone out by name, because I don't even remember. I don't even know who by name is done. But you see people who list and I just recommend don't do that. Like they list the clients like if they work on a couple flagship clients at an agency, they'll list those clients on their LinkedIn. Like here are the clients I work on. And I was like, no one gives a shit. like, you got assigned to that. Like you didn't you didn't pitch it. You didn't have to do like there wasn't like a
Megan Maguire (36:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Tom Hootman (36:46)
like a tournament to earn it. Like you got picked to be on it. And I picked teams before. And sometimes when it backs against the wall, you're like, who do we got? And they step in, who's got time? And it's more of a capacity conversation than it is like true acumen or shared experience. Because a lot of times there's like, gosh, that person would be perfect. I cannot give it to them because they're swamped. So like,
Megan Maguire (36:56)
Who's got time?
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (37:12)
It's like that element of ownership that is a bit in my opinion misguided and I'll also say that You talk a lot about client relationships There are some huge brands I've worked with who I I could never kind of pierce the outer shell And it was like they were very formal relationships, which is fine. That's that's healthy in its own way and I still check in though on clients I've had over the years and it's and it's it's honestly like I couldn't work if they wanted to come to me and number one I can't I'm not
going to do that. Number two, I don't think we could because you're huge, but you're a good person. like, I there are a lot of those relationships where I will send them, I'll send an email and be like, Hey, how have you been? I haven't talked to you since this thing was going on. How's it going? And it's and my fear is always that they think I'm trying to sell them something. And it's like, No, no, no, no, no. Like, I just like you as a person. Like, maybe someday you know someone who in your network who is smaller, you can kick our way great, but like
Megan Maguire (38:01)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (38:01)
my one of my my sales trainer is a fantastic company. Shout out Blind Zebra Oh, every podcast, damn it. He's gonna owe me money. Brian and Stephanie, you owe me money is that it's it's like if your intention is pure, you're clean, right? You must go into these conversations with like a clean intention, a pure intention of just wanting to help and just wanting to check in on people and being like not a shithead trying to sell them something.
Megan Maguire (38:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. think people want to work with people that are, that they have that relationship with, that they know that are well intended at the end of the day. And so the work comes later, right?
Tom Hootman (38:35)
Yep. There was, we found out we didn't get a deal
this morning that was a smaller brand based outside the U S very regional. And they ultimately went with someone who not only was closer by who would meet with them on a regular basis, but had been a customer of theirs before. And it was, was a really cathartic conversation. We had a, there's a one-on-one with the founder and I was like, Hey, like you're making the right choice.
That's a good choice. Like there's nothing, that's the right person to work with. Now, and also like seriously, like if you get into an issue where you feel like there's no traction or you don't know what's happening, I will always come in clean and tell you like, you're being crazy, they're fine. Or hey, like maybe you're outgrowing them. But like maybe work together five years from now, I'd rather be your friend for four and a half years than to try to like sell around that now. When in all honesty,
Megan Maguire (39:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (39:24)
that's the right choice, not us. Because it's also easier when it's smaller clients, like mid-market clients, because it's not like, I don't know that I do it with like an enterprise client who's like, make or break me, but it's like, I hope to be able to keep that type of separation. So.
Megan Maguire (39:26)
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's so many things that go into those type of decisions in
the moment. So many things that are committees involved and past relationships and all of this stuff. And then you just don't know how they're going to come back to you at some point. So just treating everyone like humans.
Tom Hootman (39:55)
You never know. Yeah,
people. Two more questions for you. Number one, what makes a great agency in your opinion, and you're not allowed to say the people, because that's what everyone tries to say.
Megan Maguire (40:06)
I don't think that's fair because of course it's about the people. okay. I think that what makes a great agency is the ability for, I'll say, I think if you ask me this again,
earlier on in my career, I would have a very different answer because I've worked at very small agencies and very big agencies. And having that perspective, what I really feel like makes the best type of agency is an agency that is flexible and scrappy and has this drive and this hunger and the ability to get to an answer or a solution quickly without
the red tape And that's not to say this is a big agency versus small agency thing, because I think
there are plenty of mid-size, large agencies that has still kept this ethos. But I think at the end of the day, and I think the agency that I worked with is a very good example of this, that the agency grew but still always felt very entrepreneurial. It always felt like there was this period of like, we gotta get through this month and we gotta make this thing happen. We gotta make this thing happen really, really quickly.
I took that with me as a big learning of staying hungry and constantly wanting to shift and change and be able to evolve with the market as the market evolves. That is, think, at the end of the day, what makes agencies really great.
Tom Hootman (41:38)
love that answer. And also I love that you gave me shit about disagreeing about people, because it's true. The people really, because that's the first piece. If you hire the right people, the rest falls into line. And I'll cement what you said by saying like, for me, like the other way I phrase it is like lack of ego. And I always enjoy pulling in outside resources for different POV to help.
Megan Maguire (41:46)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (42:02)
when things aren't going well or there's a challenge. And I've worked with teams who felt like, and I haven't worked with teams like this in a long time, but it's usually individuals who feel like they have to be perfect. And like you bring someone in, do you not trust me? Or do you bring someone in because I'm not doing a good enough job? like, no, like we need to be a team. If there's 250 of us or 25 of us who are all here for each other and can come in and just help you. Number one, that illustrates to the client.
Megan Maguire (42:05)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (42:28)
that, holy shit, I don't just have a team of two or three, I've got a team of 25 or 250. But also it's true, like that person can come in with a different perspective and help number one, validate like, oh yeah, this is just a situation that is tough right now, or find a way for us to win or get more wins out of it than we had before. That is, I think what sets it apart. So yes, that answer is the people, but it's more about like.
Megan Maguire (42:47)
Okay.
Tom Hootman (42:51)
the scrappiness, the entrepreneurialism, if everyone is running at the same pace, and I say the same pace doesn't mean everyone's running at nine miles an hour in the treadmill, but no one's walking at two and a half. And even like, and it's like the person running at 15 miles an hour isn't looking back on the person running nine like they're lazy. Like you can see it on both sides. It's like having a team who collectively makes each other faster and keeps a better pace together.
Megan Maguire (42:53)
Mm-hmm.
you
Okay.
Yeah, and I when I think back of like some of the most successful, you know,
Campaigns like some of successful client moments in my career They're not always because you have you know, you're a team of 10 out of 10 Experts and everything that you do, you know it a lot of times It's you're figuring things out as you go some of those really successful moments are like, crap We just sold something in that we don't really know how we're gonna make this happen and You just do and if you have the people with the right attitude that are running pace with each other that are bringing different perspectives to
the table. That's kind of where the magic happens, right?
Tom Hootman (43:54)
No,
that's exactly where the magic happens. My favorite thing is selling something in that you don't know how you're gonna execute and then figuring it out. So trade secret. Yeah, we can do that, absolutely. Please don't ask, please don't ask, please don't ask, please don't ask. No, case study, sure. ⁓ Last question, this is an easy one. And I ask every guest this, except for my first two, and I'm gonna ask Steph to go back and ask them, because they had it prepared and I just didn't ask. Give me a three song playlist.
Megan Maguire (43:57)
100 % Do it all the time.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (44:19)
that is the theme for your career.
Megan Maguire (44:21)
Okay, I don't think this is an easy question, but I think this is such a great question. Okay, I have three and then I have an alternate. So number one, I have to do Beatles. I'm a huge, huge Beatles person. And I'm gonna go with Getting Better because not only is there a degree of optimism and like working towards something,
Tom Hootman (44:25)
Thank you.
Perfect, even better.
Megan Maguire (44:46)
for the folks that know the song, there's this of like this famous analysis that talks about the balance between John and Paul and optimism versus pessimism and thinking about the positive but being kind of always pulled back by things that you're nervous about or anxious about, which I just feel like is so true to moving forward in your career and feels very right for me. ⁓ Number two,
Tom Hootman (45:09)
Love it.
Megan Maguire (45:10)
Live Forever Oasis because it feels like it's an anthem and it's a song about a journey. Again, there's a of a mix of optimism and thinking of the world moving forward, but at the same time kind of living in your moment. I'm gonna add in a really happy one because you need one for when you absolutely nail a pitch, when things are going exceptionally well.
or if you just had that conversation where you got unfairly chewed out by a client, a boss, a colleague, and you just gotta get in your car, blast some music, and remind yourself that you're still really good at your job. And so for that one, I'm gonna do Good As Hell by Lizzo.
Tom Hootman (45:47)
That's great.
Megan Maguire (45:48)
And then my final one is Taylor Swift, All Too Well, 10 minute version, Taylor's version. One, because I love it, but two, because it shows that something really bad happening in your life in retrospect maybe isn't that bad, and also in retrospect can turn into something really beautiful.
Tom Hootman (46:07)
Amazing choices.
Also, I'm seeing patterns now. Second Live Forever choice out of like a handful of podcasts, which is fantastic. Yes, yes. Aaron Levy, who used to work with Tinuiti he just got another job I think with Optmyzr He just saw them play I think in like over in the UK somewhere. ⁓ See, it says topical. It's gonna be two weeks ago, yeah. And then,
Megan Maguire (46:14)
Wait, seriously? That's so funny.
I'm going in two days, which on this podcast might be two weeks ago or whatever it happens to be.
Tom Hootman (46:34)
Kayla Kurtz, who was my VP of Sales who I worked with for a decade. I think she picked all Taylor Swift songs because she's a huge Taylor Swift fan, which is perfectly viable. And then the last thing I'll add is that your Beatles choice. Do you remember when that was the song that I think it was Magnavox used that as like their, in their brand campaigns for their TV spots. And they would cut it off right before it can't get much worse.
which I thought was a really, really bold choice that never came up. And I was like, maybe it was because it was like kind of like pre caustic internet days, but it was like someone held their breath after they sold that one and wanted to see what the Magnavox execs would say. But excellent choices. Megan, thank you so much for making time. It was wonderful to catch up. I really appreciate it. Of course I admire your journey because we have very similar journeys.
Megan Maguire (47:02)
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (47:25)
I appreciate you sharing so much about it and I look forward to keeping our conversation going and continuing to work together as we have on a couple little random odds and ends.
Megan Maguire (47:33)
Yeah, likewise. Always great to chat, Tom. And yeah, thanks for having me on.
Tom Hootman (47:37)
Thanks.