I'm Brian Bashore, Professional walleye angler and owner of The Walleye Guys Guide service. I am here to reel you in with captivating stories, expert tips, and interviews with some of the biggest names in the fishing community. So, sit back, relax, and let the drag scream!
Brian Bashore (00:00)
Hey, welcome back everybody to another episode of Real Talk Fishing with No Limits, brought to by Seaguar's High Performance Braids. It is 2025. Happy New Year. This is our first podcast for 2025. We did 40 episodes in 2024. So I think that was pretty good, well received. So we're going to keep this going. And I kind of been saving this one, recorded it just for Christmas with a couple of good friends, because this is a great episode. You're going to want to tune in and listen. It's some new.
Twist on things. We're going to talk a little conservation and funding and give everybody a little history and lesson on how all this works for our fisheries and our hunting side of stuff. wrote a couple experts on panel here. We have Chris Horton from congressional sportsman's foundation and Lou carpenter for national wildlife federation. Lou and I go way back. Good friends met Chris quite a while ago. These guys know their stuff and this is, I just feel like most of the world isn't educated in this realm as much as myself and many others that kind of live in that space, which is completely understandable.
So we want to give you some history and just some insight on how a lot of this works. see people talking on forums that are social and they're complaining about funding and their DNRs or GFPs and how things work. We're going to try to break that down a little bit so you can understand it a little better. could go for hours and hours to do this. You may never get the gist of all of it, but it's pretty complex.
But highly recommend you tune in and listen to this. So, so that's enough about me. So after the short message from Seaguar, we're going to hear from the guys who know it best, Lou and Chris. So stay tuned for this episode of Real Talk Fishing.
Brian Bashore (00:00)
folks, thanks for tuning into this episode of real talk fishing with no limits today. We are diving into a subject. Isn't the most sexiest thing. It's ridiculously overlooked and shouldn't be because it's the most important thing and that's conservation. And I got two of the best known conservationist guys I know who live in this space, live it, love it. And they've dedicated their life to it. We've got Lou Carpenter from national wildlife federation and mr. Chris Horton from.
congressional sportsman's foundation. So nobody knows it better than you guys. What's happening down there, up there, over there and down there, I guess we're talking, right?
Chris Horton (00:36)
It's never boring, that's for sure. Always something good.
Lew Carpenter (00:39)
Ha ha
ha!
Brian Bashore (00:40)
What state are you in today, Lou?
Lew Carpenter (00:43)
Today I'm in Colorado, a little southwest of Denver.
Brian Bashore (00:44)
Colorado.
Chris South
Chris Horton (00:49)
I'm in home in Arkansas.
Brian Bashore (00:51)
You're home. So we've been trying to get to schedule for a while, but the guys are busy as hell doing what they do. And they're all over the place. Lou's got a large region and well, hell, just let you two tell that. get our listeners a little, little background. We'll start with you, Lou.
Lew Carpenter (01:04)
Well, I'm happy Chris is here because I'm sure the birds are flying and he'd rather be somewhere else. yeah, I'll start off. Luke Carpenter, I work for the National Wildlife Federation. I'm a director of conservation partnerships. But before I came to National Wildlife Federation, I was a journalist in the hunting and angler space. I was an editor of a fishing magazine called Western Outdoors. The region was Alaska down through Baja. We had a weekly newspaper in California called Western Outdoor News. I worked for that for about a decade as an editor.
Brian Bashore (01:08)
Right.
Lew Carpenter (01:34)
Then produce some hunting and fishing television for a little bit. you know, sitting in a cubicle, it wasn't quite my space. I felt like I needed another job where I could hunt and fish on the job. And I stumbled onto the national wildlife federation and I've been there 17 years now. So, I'm fortunate to work with, the many of our affiliates, have 52 state and territory affiliates. I work with the inner mountain west ones, for the large part. also have a little bit of program work down in the Gulf.
And I work on Louisiana wetlands restoration, which also allows me to tug on some big bull reds and a snapper and Cobia and other things. I get to fish with Chris once in a while. I fish with Brian many, many times. And so I'm, I'm a grateful man in the work that I do and get to work on, some issues that benefit hunters, anglers, wildlife habitat, you know, all the things that are important to us. You know, in the outdoor space. So, and I'm from Colorado originally about an hour north of here at Greeley.
Brian Bashore (02:31)
Thank
It's quite the little resume. I wouldn't, don't know if it's little or not, but you've been around that space for a long time and lifting mountains and yeah, we will touch on some of that golf VP type stuff you've been doing down there. And I know the public land stuff is always a program that you can't seem to get out of no matter, no matter if you wanted to or not. So, all right, Chris from the warm mervenue.
Chris Horton (03:03)
Well, today we are cold. Thank goodness. Finally got some cold weather, some ducks and hopefully some woodcock down. So, but anyway, Brian really appreciate you having me on. I'm Chris Wharton, senior director of fisheries policy for the congressional sports foundation. Started my career as a fisheries biologist for the Arkansas game and fish commission right out of grad school and love doing that. think I'd ever do anything different. And I was a reservoir research biologist.
became the state's first black bass biologist running the black bass program. Obviously bass fishing is big in the state, still the number one salt sport fish in the state. And obviously we're a pretty popular tournament state with a lot of professional anglers that came from there. And I really enjoyed letting those guys grab at me at the boat ramps all the time and enjoyed, you know, working, working to try to make fishing better than lakes. But I learned pretty early on that.
Lew Carpenter (03:33)
you
Brian Bashore (03:48)
You
Chris Horton (04:00)
in my career there that natural resource management is much about people and politics as it is about the actual critter. So five years, just five years into my career, I had an opportunity to go to work for BASS, the Basslinger Sportsman Society, and joined as their conservation manager. I thought, I'm going to try working on behalf of the anglers for a while, helping them try to understand the science, but also helping them engage on the policy side of things. And I had a really good run at that, went from conservation manager up to
Lew Carpenter (04:20)
you
you
Chris Horton (04:28)
was
conservation director for several years. And again, really enjoyed it. Didn't think I would ever have a reason to leave. And then lo and behold, working with the Congressional Sportsman's Caucus and the the state legislative sportsman's caucuses and the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation on fisheries policy in the States and on Capitol Hill. CSF offered me an opportunity to go to work for them and I can move back home to Arkansas and would not have to.
Lew Carpenter (04:34)
Okay.
Chris Horton (04:57)
not have to live in DC. That'd probably been a deal breaker for me, but I'd certainly get to live in Arkansas
and just go where I'm needed. And sometimes that could be in Alaska to Florida, but I still work on fisheries policy, still work with all the angling groups in the community, the angling community. And yeah, we cover everything, federal fisheries management, state fisheries management, and little bit of everything in between.
Lew Carpenter (05:04)
you
Brian Bashore (05:25)
Yeah, I can, you both got great gigs to keep you out there on the water in the fields. And I think we can all say we spent enough time in DC that we're damn glad we don't live there. Well, it's definitely a deal breaker for about anybody.
Lew Carpenter (05:34)
Okay.
Chris Horton (05:39)
Yep.
Lew Carpenter (05:40)
Unless there's, you know, American Shad running or you're shooting Sea Ducks, right? So, you know, I can agree with DC in that space.
Brian Bashore (05:43)
Right, right.
Yeah.
Chris Horton (05:49)
I need Lou to give me some tips on how you can work so much hunting and fishing into your day-to-day job. Because most people think, yeah, well, I guess you get to hunt and fish a lot. It's like, actually, I don't get to do nearly as much as I'd like to.
Brian Bashore (06:02)
fish for living and I don't get a fish enough. I mean, it's just, it's most people don't realize that there's so much business involved with, you know, they only see the, sound bites or the glory moments or the high work and the other highlight reel, right? With our whole social media world we live in now, but they don't know about what happens behind the scenes, which is where exactly what we're talking about is what you guys come into play with that is this so overlooked and I think just in general, the general, you know,
Chris Horton (06:04)
Yeah.
Brian Bashore (06:31)
population isn't aware of what's going on out there. We are, and we're in our circle is, is you and it's, you know, it's these people so we can talk about it. it's just secondhand. It's not, it's normal conversation. But when I talk to other people as a guide or in my boat or clients or sports shows, it's, it's just over their head and they have no idea. And if they do ever hear about an issue, it's too late basically at that point. You are.
Obviously on those issues, but years, years before, you know, the general public hears about stuff you guys are doing, doing the work on the legislative side that, that needs to be done. It's not, I always say it's not sexy. Nobody knows about it. Nobody hears about it. Cause you just don't get any glory or pat on the back near as often as you should for it. No, I think so maybe watching or listening, Chris came to our NPA conference a couple of years ago. I think that was when I was in Florida. we've had.
A couple of National Wildlife Federation people come to the conference over the years, think, Andy or Mark and Drew, I think of all came one time or another and given some updates on stuff. and as well as Chris had also helped kind of give a little guidance to Pat and some of MPA members on our North Dakota issue we had with that permit fee a few years ago, which we just had Zach Axman on who led a lot of that as well, which we got rep...
We won in a sense, got a repass. Not only did they get rid of the conservation limit of the fee that brought the permit down to like 250 bucks versus a five grand. And they still, now they have the conservation fee aspect of it, which is, which is still fine and good.
Chris Horton (08:12)
Yeah.
It was Zach that worked that for you guys. did a phenomenal job. I'll just tell you. I mean, we obviously, we helped to get the bill introduced because it was the last bill in that session that got introduced in the, worked with the state legislative sports and caucuses or state sports and caucuses in all 50 states. And these are bipartisan caucuses because Finfer and Feathers should transcend party lines. but we had a very strong leader.
Brian Bashore (08:15)
Yeah. Yep. Zach Axman.
Chris Horton (08:42)
co-chair there in North Dakota that was willing to take a look at this issue. I connected him with Zach. We had some conversations and lo and behold, he introduced the bill and yeah, we got some positive changes done there.
Brian Bashore (08:54)
Yeah,
we had Zach and the Jeremy Olsen. think Susie with Devil's Lake Chamber was big on it. So once again, it was a bill that was pushed through that nobody, nobody knew about, you know, reworded it, renamed it something that nobody knew. It didn't say nothing about tournament fees. It was conservation, you know, and as obviously a former BSS guy, know, how much those fees can play into where you're going and, know, in far scheduling tournaments and stuff. So.
Chris Horton (09:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned Jeremy too, because he, he was very heavily involved in testifying and, and said all the right things when he needed to say them. Yeah. It's, it's when we come together with a good plan, that's it. You just gotta get involved. And when you do good things can happen. You know, you can change the direction, you know, too, too often, think anglers are just complacent and just want to complain about something and not really getting, getting involved. But, everybody out there does have a voice and, and there's resources there to help you.
Lew Carpenter (09:50)
Well, I don't want to gush too much because Chris will get a big head, but you know, our relationship at the National Wildlife Federation with Congressional Sportsman's Foundation is tremendous. It's incredibly powerful. The states that I work in, the folks that you have on the ground that bring sportsmen groups together and coalition, you know, building political power. It's just not easy. You know, I'm a relationship manager. So are you, you know, and but your direct hyper focused access on
those state legislators and federal legislators is where the decisions get made, right? And, you know, we have a tremendous advocacy machine at the National Wildlife Federation that brings people out to make comments, but you guys are directly with the folks. I mean, testament to that is, is I finally made it to your CSF Summit in Baton Rouge a couple of weeks ago, where you had all the state senators there, really powerful event, right? Really a great opportunity to connect with folks that are making decisions at the state level.
Brian Bashore (10:20)
decisions get made, right? We have a tremendous advocacy machine in that.
because I'm directly with the folks and I'm in a testament to that is I finally made it to your CSF summit, Baton Rouge, where you had all the state senators there. Really powerful event, really great opportunity to connect with folks that are making decisions at the state level
that impact all of us as hunters and anglers. So I'm grateful for the work and the partnerships that we have with you guys. I just thought I'd add that in there because it's not.
Lew Carpenter (10:45)
that impact all of us as hunters and anglers. And so I'm grateful for the work and the partnerships that we have with you guys. And I just thought I'd add that in there because it's not
easily known. You know, when I was an editor of Western Outdoors, I really didn't know much about the conservation community. I'd get the press releases and things like that. I'm like, well, you know, they clearly know what they're talking about. I'll move that information. I feel trusted about it, but I didn't really know, you know, what really is going on behind the curtain in some senses.
Brian Bashore (10:54)
When I was an editor of Western Outdoors, I really didn't know much about the situation in Western.
They clearly know what they're talking about. Also, the information is still trusted about it, but they didn't really know what really swore on the high-perjury. In some senses, and
now I'm aware of it all.
Lew Carpenter (11:13)
And now I'm aware of it all for sure. And how powerful,
how powerful the machine is, you know, and when it all comes together in the right way, right? When we're bringing all the hunters and anglers together, the legislators, the decision makers, and we can get a lot of stuff done. So, appreciate you, Chris, and the work you guys do.
Chris Horton (11:29)
Yeah, we appreciate you all as well. mean, that constituent, being a member of NWF or being a member of BSS or any of the credit group memberships out there, it is powerful for them to be able to say, we have this many members. It's even more powerful though when we bring on the policy issue a solution to a problem for them and they know that they're going to have the backing of those organizations if they're going to try to push this through.
and then you activate the advocacy machine that get the hundreds or not, depending on the issue, thousands of email support. That's what it all comes together and it's all a well-oiled machine. mean, we all have specific roles to play, but it can work. But it's important. mean, just the average angler, just join a group. If you're not willing to advocate, just join some of the groups. It's very helpful to have those membership numbers.
Lew Carpenter (12:11)
Yeah.
I'll take
one particular example, and I know this isn't fishing related, Brian, sorry, you I know you're focused on that, but it's a hunting issue that's really important to us. And all these things have rabbit holes and slide different directions. But in Colorado, we had a ballot initiative that was an anti-hunting ballot. It was anti-trophy hunting. It was anti-mountain lion, bobcat, lynx hunting. you know, I have to give a lot of credit to Howell for Wildlife. They've done a lot of work on that space, but CSF kicked in a lot of money to help us on that campaign. And then NWF.
Brian Bashore (12:25)
It's all right. It's all right.
Lew Carpenter (12:50)
leaned in and sent emails to a hundred thousand plus members in Colorado and said to vote no on that stuff. And we won by 300,000 votes. I mean, and it was something that we did not really expect to win on the front range of Colorado with the way the demographics and dynamics have changed. And it was important. was science-based wildlife management. was principle centered campaign. And once we were able to get to the public and explain that to them and the way that wildlife management works, the things you were mentioning earlier, Brian, about way funding works and Pittman Robertson.
Brian Bashore (13:03)
Mm-hmm.
Lew Carpenter (13:19)
Dingell Johnson and wallet bro, all these things, the public doesn't really know about this stuff. And it's, you know, it's hard for them. get really wonky and they don't understand much of it, but we came together really well on this campaign in Colorado. We beat down something that was really important to the way hunting and fishing is going to work in the future here in the United States. And these ballot measures that try and manage wildlife, are ill informed and they confuse the public and they're really complicated. And so.
Brian Bashore (13:20)
all these things the public doesn't really know about this stuff and it's you know it's hard for them we get really wonky and they
you
Lew Carpenter (13:47)
Once again, know, CSF leaned in in a big way. Money a lot of times does more than anything. And so that was important, you know. But anyway, I just want to point that out as one example of how we had a big win here in November in that space, right? When we had folks that really wanted to take away something that we have. And I'm not a mountain lion hunter, but I understand why we need it there. And the methods that we have are important to wildlife conservation and they've been successful.
and those populations are healthy and robust in Colorado. And there was no need to change the way we do management.
Chris Horton (14:22)
Absolutely. Yeah. Y'all did a great job out there beating that back. You know, we had a session at the NASC summit, which is the National Assembly Sportsman's Caucuses. That's the umbrella group that all these state caucuses are under. But I think this second year in a row, we've had a session on ballot box biology because we're seeing more of that and we really need the public to pay attention and be ready to push back on that. need wildlife, fisheries and wildlife management to remain in the hands of the professional.
scientists and it's based on science and motion science. Yeah. I could care less about, I would never want to mountain lions. I don't even want to bear hunt, but I don't have a problem with people that do. I'll eat them. Yeah,
Lew Carpenter (15:01)
You'll eat him.
Brian Bashore (15:03)
No
It all seems like such common sense, you know, but it's not, because it's like most of the general public doesn't know because we confuse the hell out of the language that's on these ballots and stuff. But I think your, your summit that you've been doing for years, that that's huge. Cause you obviously get new, you know, you're trying to get these new legislators in these States to join and then they get down and then you educate them on how to get, know, that you're the resource we can help draft these bills, get them out there. And then the process to do it. Cause a lot of them.
You know, like a state Senator is, you know, on the local level is that's it. It's a part-time gig doesn't pay or pays, you know, 10, $12,000 a year. And it's their first time. They don't really have any idea how to do it. And you guys can really thread that needle drive, you know, drive it right through there, but you still need those boots on ground, you know, but just like Lou Lou's boots on ground in several States, got, you know, CSF Scott guys all over the place, you know, educating and doing that, but you still can't be every.
everything to everybody and it can't be everywhere at once.
Chris Horton (16:12)
Yeah, yeah. Go ahead Luke.
Lew Carpenter (16:13)
And our task
too, you know, one more point on that is, know, sportsmen in different spaces, know, anglers might be like, well, that's a hunting issue. I don't know that I need to lean in on that. You know, upland hunters, you know, that's not coming to us anytime soon, but I'll tell you, you know, even after November 5th and we had a big victory there, the folks that brought that ballot initiative have gone back to the commission again, where we've already beat them and they're, and they're focusing on methods, you know, they want to ban dogs.
in hunting, you know, and that eventually is going to trickle to Upland, you know, and, and, and when you have folks that also talk about, maybe it starts off as coyote killing contest, but they start to talk about killing contest. Well, I mean, a kid's fishing Derby is a killing contest. mean, we all have a stake in all of these places, you know, and I just, I hope folks are starting to pay attention outside of their realms. don't think it might come to them, but
Brian Bashore (17:00)
LED.
Lew Carpenter (17:07)
It will, and I hope they come to us and they work with us because we've got ways to win. You know, we really do.
Brian Bashore (17:15)
The lead, right? We're going to be dealing with that. That's a hunting issue that's crossing over into the fisheries world and fishing is slowly getting there. Tungsten.
Chris Horton (17:24)
Yeah,
no, we see lead fishing bills pop up all the time. Really our position on that is, look, lead's an element in the earth. I mean, it's there. So if there's a science-based justification for if lead fishing tackle, discarded lead fishing tackles, having population level impacts, then by all means, the state agencies will regulate that.
It shouldn't be a federal thing for one, but the state agencies should regulate that and would. But in reality, there hasn't been any evidence of lead fishing tackle having population level impacts anywhere. So until that occurs, we're going to be opposed to doing away with traditional lead fishing tackle, just because as you know, it's cheaper. And we see it as actually an access issue for some folks.
to have to go to buy all Tungsten or any. Yeah, exactly. You just don't get to perform. I mean, it's kind of hard to put Tungsten split shot on the ring.
Brian Bashore (18:27)
Yeah, tungsten's expensive.
Right. A little bit, a little bit.
Lew Carpenter (18:34)
Yeah. Well,
and I don't know about you guys, but I mean, got lead, I got lead sinkers in my tackle box from 40 years ago. I'm not losing a lot of lead in the water, quite frankly. And, you know, and the National Wildlife Federation takes a voluntary approach, right? We try and educate the public. If they choose to use some other things, then that's up to them. We want to give them a little bit of information about where they can get that stuff, especially in the hunting space. Some states are doing a great job by providing that stuff for free.
Brian Bashore (18:42)
yeah. No, no.
Chris Horton (18:43)
Yeah
Lew Carpenter (19:00)
But we take the voluntary approach as a policy and that's where we sit on that too. But yeah, don't, I mean, I face a lot, but I don't know how much, I'm not leaving a bunch of lead around. I don't even understand. But maybe there are some folks, but I don't think so.
Brian Bashore (19:14)
But
Lou uses one of those long flimsy sticks a lot more than you and I though, Chris. So he doesn't, there's not a lot of lead involved with one of those things. With the little flies on the end of them, you know.
Lew Carpenter (19:26)
Well, you'd be surprised how little I do compared to I used to be all fly fishing when I got to Western outdoors. I got admonished. I got ridiculed. You know, I had to grow my space into and a large mouth bass and a steelhead and a saltwater fishing and everything, you know, I haven't done as much walleye Brian and I haven't been up to see you enough, but I understand they're very tasty. I've eaten one or two, I think in my day, but
Brian Bashore (19:29)
Right.
Yeah.
the very, very tasty, very
missing out. don't know if it's good as a red fish on a half shell type thing, but pretty damn good. I don't know what the number is, maybe crystals, but hunters and anglers. I don't know. It's small. Obviously it's what? 51 million anglers or something like that now and 60 and maybe what? 5 million hunters, but it's gotta be 70 % of those hunters are anglers.
Chris Horton (20:19)
yeah. Yeah. You typically there's a pretty strong crossover there. I don't know where the there's a strong crossover from the hunting to the angling side. It's not the same on the angling side. Not, as many, there's not a great, it's big of a proportion of anglers that hunt, although they're obviously there are, but, fishing, fishing is really, it's kind of a gateway to get policy makers involved with the state as well as the congressional sportsman's caucus is, is through fishing because
Brian Bashore (20:26)
All right.
Chris Horton (20:48)
even though they don't hunt, they might fish and then they therefore understand the value of fisheries management or science-based fisheries management and science-based wildlife management. And we can get them engaged on the policy side, on some of the hunting side, because they understand from the fishery side the importance of management conservation.
Brian Bashore (21:07)
I think one thing to make all of this a lot easier down the road, is it amendment two? Florida just got passed on this last cycle. Right fish nut.
Chris Horton (21:17)
Yeah, I think it was two. It's two or four. I don't know. can't remember with all the...
Brian Bashore (21:21)
I don't know,
there's a lot, but that is like the 25th or 27th state now to make fishing and hunting basically a constitutional right in that state.
Chris Horton (21:28)
Yeah, I it's a 22nd or 23rd, but yeah, mean, honestly, that was a little bit surprising to us because some of the resistance was coming from some folks in the fishing community, some influencers there, and they were making all the same arguments that have been made in other states. traditional methods will open up opportunities for bringing back the gill nets that were banned. Well, no, you've already got that in the constitution where that's already banned. It doesn't supersede that. And it still is based on
Lew Carpenter (21:31)
and
Chris Horton (21:57)
the commission still fish science based management authority still resides with the commission and they can implement restrictions to protect the population. anyway, yeah, that was a little bit worried about that one there, but, it did pass pretty, pretty, pretty handily and 67%. Yep. So it did 60 in, in, Florida, but it passed with 67%. But, yeah, right to hunt and fish is,
Lew Carpenter (22:01)
But.
I thought it was like 60%, right? 67, yeah. Staggering.
Chris Horton (22:27)
is making sure that we use hunting and fishing as the way we've traditionally been able to do it, is as basically conservation tools, you know, to be able to manage populations, is to ensure that that still resides with the commissions and with the anglers, because we never know what the future is going to hold. You know, we've seen where there's a lot of efforts in some states to get non-consumptive users, so non-anglers and hunters on state game commissions that would be
Brian Bashore (22:47)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Horton (22:55)
making decisions relative to the ability for us to hunt and fish. So right to hunt and fish in the state's constitution really, really protects that. And what a lot of people don't realize is that the very first right to hunt and fish in the constitution was in Vermont's original state constitution in 1777. They put a right to hunt and fish in their constitution. So this isn't a new concept. Just Vermont was way ahead of everybody else.
Lew Carpenter (23:18)
You know, I got a question for you, Chris, too. You know, I'm not sure Colorado doesn't have that right to hunt fish. I don't know that that would have helped us on this ballot. You know, this anti hunting ballot initiative, right? And and we've seen states like Utah that were wise years ago that that banned that type of ballot initiative on wildlife management. And I'm wondering what I mean, you know, a state like Colorado has a super majority right now in the Democratic space that's probably not going to be able to change something like that. know,
Brian Bashore (23:18)
Finally.
Lew Carpenter (23:49)
I'm wondering about ways that we can get that changed in other states, where you can't put wildlife management on the ballot. And I don't know what your prognosis on that is or how difficult it is these days to make that type of an amendment.
Chris Horton (24:03)
Yeah, it varies by state. It's different for each state and how ballot measures can make it to the ballot layer. It's an initiative, citizens initiated initiative, or it's an actual measure that comes through the state legislature. We are actually in the process right now of doing a very detailed dive into all of those state laws and statutes regarding ballot initiatives, as well as looking at their commission structures and how they're set up and thinking just like
Brian Bashore (24:03)
We it.
Chris Horton (24:31)
along those lines that you just mentioned to, how do we preemptively make sure that fish and wildlife management continues? Because it's the most successful model of fish and wildlife conservation in the world. And it's due to hunters and anglers. We mentioned Dingle Johnson, Pippen Robertson, Wallet Bro a minute ago. mean, that's the system that funds this whole North American model. And we've to make sure that we protect that and protect the access so that we can continue that conservation.
Brian Bashore (25:00)
I was first involved with Nebraska's initiative, and Scott Smathers led that as the director for the Nebraska sportsman's foundation. Actually, when first met you Chris long before Lou and I, Lou introduced you to me years ago. like, think it was like 80 % that one went through. think we had a little party at a bar, watched the whole ballot thing go on all night long. And that's, you know, it's like, why are we sweating this? But money.
Chris Horton (25:20)
Yeah, it's
Yeah. Yeah. There's always the threat that the, that the antis could come in and spend a lot of money, and, and defeat you. And the only place it's ever been defeated, it was in Arizona. And, and a lot of it was the messaging there. and, that was a really a learning experience for the rest of the States that are trying to do this.
Brian Bashore (25:48)
Yeah, cause I think when Nebraska did, was maybe the 17th state at that time. And then there seemed like there's been a state almost every year, you know, since then kind of jumping on. And I've asked that being a lot in South Dakota. I'm like, why the hell is that not something here? That just, it's a no brainer. And we've some legislators are now gone. and the answers I get are just ridiculous. I'm like, do you not understand what we're trying to, what this really means? They have a completely different perception of it, but.
Chris Horton (25:57)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Brian Bashore (26:17)
We need more of those legislators on your, on the caucus to understand it. So you guys can educate them better before I raise hell.
Lew Carpenter (26:23)
You did have one of those
guys in Nebraska that comes along every once in while and tries to grab those Pittman Robertson funds back into the general fund, which he can't do. And they fail miserably every time, even Governor Schwartz nigger in California tried it, but you know, they grabbed that and they lose tons of money for wildlife management. And once they figure that out, they got to stop. And it's a great method to keep them from doing that.
Brian Bashore (26:30)
yeah, yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, he tried to do that this year. and kind of hand smacking and a quick learning that you don't get a touch those PR funds, buddy. That's not how it works, they are mainly on the Missouri river where I got a lot. They were supposed to be putting in on the Nebraska side, it's a boundary water. It's supposed to be putting in a whole new recreation area, a multimillion, couple year project and nothing's happening.
Lew Carpenter (26:51)
You
Chris Horton (27:09)
Yeah, I've had an opportunity a couple of times for a couple of states that were looking to sweep those funds into the general fund in order to, and not the federal dollars coming back, was the state licensed dollars that they were going to sweep and to take some of the license dollars to balance the budget. And all you got to do is contact the regional office of the US Fish and Wildlife Service, the Wildlife and Sport Restoration Coordinator.
When they say the bill language, they'll write a nice letter to the Senate president or the speaker of the house and the governor's office saying, if you all do this, that constitutes a loss of control or diversion of funds. And, and, you're $19 million you're getting in whisper funds this year goes away. So they usually, every time they pull back like, we didn't realize we can't touch that, that money.
Brian Bashore (27:50)
No, no.
Lew Carpenter (28:01)
This
Brian Bashore (28:03)
Yeah. So you brought it up, Lou. Why don't you touch on the Pittman Robertson fund and then we'll let Chris educate everybody on the Dingell Johnson funds a little bit. Little, little history of conservation and kind of how all this theoretically happens.
Lew Carpenter (28:15)
Sure.
Well, it's interesting too, because the National Wildlife Federation really came together at that point to work on that bill. In a sense, you know, we had all these different gun clubs and things around the country that came together to create the Federation and also the Wildlife Watchers and lot of other folks, but mostly sportsmen organizations because of the the market killings of the early 1900s were devastating wildlife and we needed a way to find out how to fund management and sportsmen
You know, self-imposed excise tax, right? And we've had trouble with other stakeholder groups doing that these days. We can't get the backpack tax or the mountain bike tax or the kayak tax in the same way. I think, you know, not to know the details as well as Chris probably does, but it's in the 30%, 35 % range excise taxes on firearms and ammunition. goes to. well, it feels like 35 to me. Sorry, it's 11.
Chris Horton (29:07)
It's 11%.
Brian Bashore (29:13)
Yeah.
Lew Carpenter (29:14)
Yeah,
I knew that I would be wrong on numbers and I shouldn't be doing numbers. Yeah, that's, that's right. When it all happened. But, but, but anyway, those, those taxes go into a federal fund that match these, state licenses. So the more licenses the state gets, you know, the more their funding goes up. think Chris, if I'm correcting that on the broad strokes, but you know, it's a, it's a self-funded, it's a self-imposed tax by a user group. And it's a really important model that we really can't get to today in other spaces. And it's funded.
Brian Bashore (29:16)
1935 or 37 something like that is what it was.
Lew Carpenter (29:43)
wildlife conservation to the tune of I don't know how many billions at this point, north of 20.
Chris Horton (29:50)
since the beginning of, the program, yeah, that's w it's well north of 20. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now.
Brian Bashore (29:57)
It was like
Lew Carpenter (29:57)
Yeah,
right.
Brian Bashore (29:58)
399 million just in 2022.
Lew Carpenter (30:02)
No, it's a staggering amount. And like you said, when you're talking about 19 million to a state for, for, for funding wildlife conservation, in a lot of cases, it funds the entire state agency. You know, I know there's other components these days, but still the vast majority. then that, you know, it is a complicated issue with the way that we fund. gives sportsmen that seat at the table. That's really important because we're the ones in the field. We're paying attention to what's going on. I know other folks would like to have a little bit more influence, but they're going to have to pay in to do that. And.
Chris Horton (30:02)
Yeah.
Lew Carpenter (30:32)
And then there's, there's a lot that comes with that, but, you know, Dingle Johnson, wallet brew bro, you know, those are in the fishing space. Chris, you could mention those. said wallet bros, the champion these days, but, I know there's a lot of ways, you know, with, manufacturing over in Asia and different things like that. There's a lot of loopholes involved in all of this. And so we're constantly trying to pay attention to that groups like CSF, American sport fishing association, pay real close attention.
to making sure that the funds that should be coming into these spaces are and that we're not, know, manufacturers aren't getting around it by any means. And I think we're doing an all right job, but it's always a risk.
Chris Horton (31:09)
Yeah, I know you brought up a really good point on foreign countries and I'll touch on that in a second. yeah, the Pittman Robertson on the wildlife side, tax along firearms and ammunition was the first one and that worked so well past 1937. That's where you're getting your number. It worked so well for a while that the fishing groups, fishing industry and the anglers said, well, wait a second, tax us too.
Brian Bashore (31:24)
Yep.
Lew Carpenter (31:26)
You're generous.
Chris Horton (31:36)
We want some funds like this coming back for fisheries management and boat ramp building and the things we need on the fishing side. So 1950, the Dingle Johnson Act passed, which replaced the 10 % excise tax on fishing equipment like rods and reels, lures, hooks, sinkers, bobbers, fishing line, and a few other things. And that gave the fishing side and the fisheries management world a little bit of a boost.
In 1984, an amendment came along to that, a substantial amendment that actually Ray Scott, the founder of Bass had a lot to do with that too, making that happen. But 1984 passed the wallet bro amendment, which increased the list of things that were taxable and also included the Marine fuel tax. So basically there's a way that IRS calculates how much fuel and the federal fuel tax spent on motorboat fuels. And that
actually increased the pot by like additional like more than doubled it essentially. it yeah. Yeah. It was.
Brian Bashore (32:37)
60 some percent, believe. And I know I'm a hell
of a contributor to that and it sucks, that, you know, but it's for a good cause. Every day I filled up, say that I'm like, that's a good cause.
Lew Carpenter (32:41)
Thank you.
Chris Horton (32:41)
Yeah.
Yep.
We have to go back and reauthorize that every five years as part of the highway and transportation bill. And actually we're in the process right now of finishing kind of the tweaks that we need to make moving forward in the next five years. And that'll be up for reauthorization next year. So we've got some draft language we're working on, but one of the things that Lou mentioned it, know, that looking at the online marketplaces we have today,
There's a lot of fishing tackle that's being delivered directly to the consumer from foreign manufacturers and they are not paying the exodus tax. And that's called an exodus tax slippage issue. And we've been working with ASA and this is also happening on the archery side for some of the archery equipment that's taxed and primarily arrows being the big one. I believe Easton arrows is the only one made in the U S and they're, and they're, they're 10 or 11 % tax, but the bulk of
arrows people are getting are from overseas and they're not paying the tax. So we're working with Congress on ways to address that and it's been well received. know, anytime you put A, the most successful conservation funding model in the world in jeopardy and B, you've got, you already have a competitive disadvantage for U.S. manufacturers with these foreign products, it's pretty easy to get bipartisan support on this. So I'm confident we'll fix that.
It's not huge number right now. think just real conservative estimates, maybe 17 to $20 million worth of excise taxes we're losing, but it's growing and it's going to continue to grow with the availability of just buying anything online now and getting it shipped directly to you. So we don't want to see this incredibly successful system eroded in any way.
Brian Bashore (34:36)
And it.
Lew Carpenter (34:37)
And, know,
I'll point out the St. Croix hat right there, right? Great rod manufacturer in Wisconsin. Our good friend, Jesse Simpkins is up there.
you know, paying attention to where these things are made is helpful too. I mean, I don't, I don't want to get too heavy on that, but we do need to close that slippage and figure out a way to make that work. Right. But I love seeing the St. Croix there. Thanks, Brian.
Brian Bashore (34:58)
Yeah, I just actually got off a podcast here with Brian Evans with Segar. So I mean, there's one of those companies and there's another one. YLX, right? Your Segar made Z-Man, right? We haven't had touched on it. was like, you know, during COVID, all these products were available. That's because they had complete control because they're all made right here. There just, there isn't very many of them. There's like one product in each little space that's actually made here and the rest of them are all.
all coming overseas. So maybe that'll change.
Chris Horton (35:29)
Well,
just to be clear, know, we have a lot of many families, Shimano and Iowa, but they're all good players. mean, when they import stuff here from, if it's made in the factories overseas, they're paying the excise tax as soon as it lands on US soil. So they're writing big checks. mean, like, like six figure checks, a quarter. And they gladly do it because they know it goes back, goes back to conservation.
Brian Bashore (35:56)
I was
at a pheasants forever, their annual pheasant fest. I think it was the CEO CEO of federal, was a huge sponsor for pheasants forever. and during the banquet thing, he pretty much said, yeah, we just, just wrote our quarterly excise tax check, you know, it is well into the six figures. And that was this, that's this one company, you know, that was this federal, and he was like, and I'm happy to pay it.
Lew Carpenter (36:24)
Well, yeah, one of
their corporate owners at one point, Vista, I know things have been breaking up and shaken up, but yeah, they used to send out that information. We paid 98 million this year in excise taxes and things like that. You know, they got a lot going on, but I'm glad they're highlighting how much they are paying into it. I think that's important, you know, for people to understand that and the way they make their purchasing decisions.
Brian Bashore (36:34)
Yep.
And they know the more they're paying excess tax, the more they're making on the backend. So, right. The more taxes we owe us because we made more money. So, I mean, we all hate paying taxes, but the more money you make, the more typically, the more taxes you pay unless you got a really good accountant. So, and you can find a way around some of that. the, it's such a successful, those are two successful programs because they were basically founded, created by the user. The Hunter, the Angler said.
tax me because I know that without these resources, I don't get, there is no future. I don't get to do this and that. mean, the companies look at a fun fish, you know, kids fishing things are great and easy to get funded because there's not anglers in the future. We don't have anybody to sell a product to. And I can't think of any other too many. I'm sure there's probably something out there, you know, programs that where the guys are like, Hey, we want to pay more taxes. You know, we wish some of that would, would happen. So the bikers, kayakers could do whatever can.
who are non-consumptive users is what we're talking about that are utilizing the resources that the hunters and anglers are paying for. And now the guys aren't paying their fair share.
Chris Horton (37:54)
Yep.
Lew Carpenter (37:54)
non-consumptive dialogue is changing rapidly. We're starting to do studies here in Colorado where they'll create a mountain bike trail through an elk migration corridor. We can tell you between a hiker, a mountain biker, an e-bike, how much disruption and how far that goes out onto those elkers. In a sense, nobody's non-consumptive even the way we do agriculture.
Brian Bashore (37:56)
Yeah.
Lew Carpenter (38:23)
Some worms got to die, right? So it's an interesting conversation. We've used that term for a long time. I'm not really a fan of it because I feel like it's deceptive. It feels like that those folks are out on the landscape and they're not having an impact, but they are. And we're paying for that to make sure that habitat and open spaces and beautiful scenery and everything is still there for them, public lands and all of that.
Brian Bashore (38:25)
Yeah, right.
Little bit.
So how do we get them? Now, can we hook them, Chris? How do we get them to pay their fair share?
Chris Horton (38:57)
Well, actually we serve on the sport fishing, voting partnership council too, which is an advisory council of the secretary of interior and secretary of commerce. And we are actually embarking our last meeting in October and voted to start going down this path of looking at the solvency of the sport fishing and voting safety trust fund that we have now that's on the fishing side and thinking about things like if it's primarily funded by fuel tax, what's the progression towards EVs, electric vehicles gonna mean? They're looking, some states are doing
Brian Bashore (39:23)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Horton (39:26)
think it's Washington that's doing a pilot study on not like a highway fuel tax, but like a miles traveled tax or something like that. So there are some fundamental changes potentially coming that may have substantial impacts on that fund. So we're looking at the solvency of where we are and then what opportunities there are to protect that funding or potentially grow that pot in the future. And what would it...
What are the talking points we need to come to the table for with the potential other, the kind of manufacturers or, know, other, other, potential outdoor recreation equipment type folks to talk about this program. But as Lou mentioned to you earlier, there's, you know, there's a flip side of that, where if you start taxing other products, you bring other user groups to the table, which may not be a bad thing in most cases, but it could cause problems in other places where you have folks that don't like.
fishing or hunting or harvesting animals at the table. So it's a little bit of a conundrum, but we're at least. Yeah, exactly. So at least on the fishing side, we're looking at the tremendous success. And this will be the 75th anniversary coming up in 2025 of the sport fishing restoration fund and the Dingell Johnson Act. So it's appropriate. It's time. We've had a very successful 75 years. What's the next 75 years going to look like and how do we.
Lew Carpenter (40:27)
you
Brian Bashore (40:30)
Right, then where does it end?
Right.
know, Mercury's got the electric motor, know, outside like the big power motor. So yeah, you start losing 67 % of the fun and fuels over the years, which I think we're obviously a long ways from, but like I said, this stuff starts seven to 10 years before any, know, the general public hears about it. ASAC, I believe, right. Restrict that is the reauthorization. just got through the house and is waiting to move on to the Senate. It's kind of what we're currently dealing with.
Chris Horton (40:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. That's one of the priorities before the 118th adjourns, hopefully. Lou, feel free to jump in here, but the America's Conservation Enhancement Act was originally passed in 2020. Basically, contains a number of bills that had already been enacted that needed to be reauthorized. It's basically a package of really important bills like the North American Wentland Conservation Act, which is what brought our duck numbers back.
Lew Carpenter (41:24)
So,
Brian Bashore (41:49)
Which
all this is part of the farm bill too, right? This is separate.
Chris Horton (41:53)
No, this is separate than the farm bill.
Lew Carpenter (41:54)
.
Chris Horton (41:55)
There are wetland programs within the farm bill as well. But NACA is a standalone basically piece of legislation that I believe it's multi, it's not just US, but we look at preserving key wetlands for waterfowl in the US and Canada and Mexico as well. So we got NACA, which is a big one, obviously for the waterfowl hunters and birdwatchers. But it's also important for fish. I wetlands are incredibly important as headwaters for fish.
Brian Bashore (41:57)
Alright.
yeah, knock.
Chris Horton (42:24)
stream fishes for sure. then in 2020, we, it officially authorized, congressionally authorized the National Fish Habitat Partnership, or National Fish Habitat Conservation Through Partnerships Program, which was an act at the time that they just folded it into this. It was an act we were trying to pass at the time, but they folded it into ACE. And the NIFHAP program is tremendously successful because it's a grassroots, more grassroots bottom up type of approach to.
addressing fisheries needs and there are 20 partnerships across the country. Some of them are area based, some of them are species based or groups of species like the Western Native Trout Initiative. And then you got the Eastern Brook Trout Joint Ventures. And then you've got the Reservoir Fish Habitat Partnership, which is kind of a system type based. But we got partnerships that cover the entire country that are looking at where are our biggest needs for fish conservation, enhancing fisheries and
and identifying those and then using these local partnerships with the local communities, the states and the federal agencies through just a little bit of funding. mean, there's only like $7.2 million appropriated to the program every year, but these partnerships are really good at leveraging that little bit of federal funding they get with state dollars, with private funding dollars, and with other sources of revenue for that match. And it's been highly successful.
It took us though, that program has been around since 2006 or seven. It took us until 2020 to finally get it authorized by Congress. And it just took forever. there were a number of challenges there, a number of reasons, won't go into all those, but it was hot. We were so fortunate to finally get it officially recognized by Congress in a permanent program moving forward. Cause it has been, it's another one of those that's been successful, very successful. So that's two of the big ones in ACE. And then there's the Chesapeake Bay programs.
that look at improving Chesapeake Bay water quality, all the challenges that the Bay has had and the declines across the board from oysters to shrub bass. It's all impacted by the water quality coming in. There's another provision in there dealing with lead. It prohibits the EPA from regulating lead fishing tackle for another five years under the Toxic Substance Control Act.
The reason that that one's important is, because of our state position on lead needs to be science-based, but the EPA has denied multiple petitions to ban the use of lead fishing tackle under the Toxic Substance Control Act. And the EPA keeps coming back and saying, Congress did not give us that authority. We did not have the authority to regulate. the problem with that is whenever anybody petitions, it starts a...
a chain reaction that takes months, if not years to resolve. it's taking resources and personnel away from the EPA's normal mission to have a discussion about this, that they continue to say, we don't have the authority. don't have the... Yeah. This is best left to the states kind of thing. it's just, I don't know, it's a way to block some of that inefficiency and some of the wasted resources there.
Brian Bashore (45:29)
We don't do this.
Well, wouldn't that be a first?
Lew Carpenter (45:43)
this is a little bit
different, but it reminds me when, you know, and I'll invoke his name. think it was US Fish and Wildlife Service Director, Dan Ash in the national parks. Somehow they tried to ban lead. Remembering the blowback on that was staggering because the authority wasn't there. It was a mess, right? That guy yanked back pretty fast, probably due to you guys. you know, it's a quick slap.
Chris Horton (45:58)
Yeah.
Little help there, but yeah.
And again, if there's ever a problem, population level impacts of lead fishing tackle, we're all about let's implement whatever we need to do, restrictions, eliminate it for that specific area, but it's not necessary to impact an industry or access for anglers if there's no scientific justification for doing so. Yep.
Brian Bashore (46:31)
Science-based facts is
the key and there just hasn't been. There was plenty on the hunting side with the waterfowl and eagles and what have you, but there isn't on the fishing side.
Lew Carpenter (46:41)
And one of the complications too is these days that we're finding all the time, and this happened in this last election cycle with us is whose science are you using?
Brian Bashore (46:52)
Mm-hmm.
Lew Carpenter (46:53)
And so there's, I know we all talk about peer reviewed science and all these kinds of things, but you know, it's a wild world when someone comes up with some science and, you know, I mean, I like our professionals, right? I like our biologists, our state level, you know, I trust those guys. And we start getting some other stuff from the side, just starts to confuse the issue. But we struggled with that a lot on people coming in and saying, well, we've got science, here's our science. And, you know, it's tricky.
Brian Bashore (47:19)
Yeah, it l-
Lou probably has to deal with a little bit more than that. do Chris. He's got an awful lot of climbing agenda over there and who bought and paid for what science, but that's the world we live in nowadays is what, what science do you choose to believe? Right.
Lew Carpenter (47:31)
That's right.
Chris Horton (47:36)
Yeah. And I was looking for something the other day. I can't remember. I have been some bar rigs to reef work and I was looking up some more studies on the ecological benefits of artificial reefs. And I mean, was coming across so many publications out there that when I was in grad school, man, there was just like a handful and those were your credible sources that were truly peer reviewed. Now, some of these, I've never heard of these journals before. And if you're just the average
Brian Bashore (47:57)
Right.
Chris Horton (48:05)
person in the public out there, may not know anything about them because I don't know about their review process and how legitimate it is. so that's where I now, because I've been out of the, in the weeds of science based management for a long time. I go to the state agencies and say, okay, here's this paper. Is this legit or is this not legit? So I,
Brian Bashore (48:26)
Yeah. Anybody
can throw up a blog and a website, write something, make it looks like it's official and they've absolutely no idea what they're talking about or it was bought and paid for. Yeah. You got to be careful.
Lew Carpenter (48:36)
Hey, and you know what offshore
reefs I saw today, Chris? You got another one, right? The East Cameron off Louisiana. I saw it today in the news. Is that right?
Chris Horton (48:46)
that was reefed.
Lew Carpenter (48:48)
Yeah, well, that's a proposed creation. East Cameron 346, special artificial reef off Louisiana. Just, saw the news story this morning, so.
Chris Horton (48:55)
Yeah. they,
Chris, I mentioned something to that one, to that particular one. Well, CCA Louisiana has all that, has their hands in all that. And they're trying to rebuild reefs that where old platforms have come out. And that's enough. One of our big priorities is we're seeing a rapid loss lately of offshore oil and gas platforms that provide tremendous
Lew Carpenter (49:00)
Good work, man.
Chris Horton (49:22)
ecological benefit. And there's been numerous studies that conclude that these things just have intrinsic environmental value once they go in the water. And so we're trying to make this rigs to reef program. There is a program in place, but as you can manage, might imagine there are five federal agencies that have to permit a rig going into the rigs, the state's rigs reef program. So that takes a while, like two to four years. And it's no big deal if you only have a dozen coming out across the Gulf. I want you to give it a year, but right now we're having hundreds coming out. So we're losing a lot more than we're able to.
Lew Carpenter (49:36)
you
Chris Horton (49:51)
keep in the water. we're, we worked with Congressman Graves. We'll work with, and Congressman Vesey, to introduce legislation this year, make that a little bit easier. Congressman Graves won't be back next year, but we will, I think we'll easily be able to find another champion and, and do that again. And the challenge is that seeing as a regional issue, primarily a Gulf issue. So it's hard to elevate it to priority of the entire Congress. But what we're trying to tell folks and, and Luke and Attest and Ron, maybe you too, that's been down there.
Man, you go to Venice, there's people from all over. I mean...
Brian Bashore (50:23)
Yeah,
I don't think that's a regional issue at all. And I spoke to our legislators on a fly in with, with Lou years ago. mean, obviously it is a geographical thing, but the waterfowl. All right. And we're in the market, Dakota, Nebraska, we're cruising through here and we're going somewhere. And if this shifts or that shifts or that isn't that nesting isn't there, it, I mean, it changes everything. I think it was, I don't even remember what we were there to speak about, but I was with dunes and rounds and they were like, what?
Lew Carpenter (50:37)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Bashore (50:52)
the hell do you care about shrimp or something like that? But I explained it to him. He's like, yeah, totally. I'll vote for that. No coastal restoration act. I think is what it was, you know? So, then men Hayden and I mean, you brought up Louisiana and you, you went that way loose. So then Chris is just touching on it, the reefs and, and that's such a fragile ecosystem down there that it affects everything. Like you said, everybody's coming down there to fish, oil, gas industry, you know,
Lew Carpenter (51:00)
Yeah.
Brian Bashore (51:21)
waterfowl. It's a catalyst or whatever you want to call it for so many species, pretty much all around North America in a sense.
Lew Carpenter (51:33)
Yeah. Well, it's, know, and just like any of these conservation issues, we're constantly fighting them. come up again and again and again. You know, we got that Restore Act passed for 18 billion for coastal restoration. Then we worked on coastal master plans and then we're fighting down there on making sure the money gets used right. And then, you know, during, during your summit there in early November, you know, we had Governor Landry, it was
in saying, you we've got some opposition. need to talk about this a little bit, some of these programs, and they're already permitted. They're already paid for, you know, so we're constantly advocating even once we've won in a big way on conservation, wildlife issues, you know, and the Gulf is no different, right? There's a lot of stakeholders. There's a lot of different interests. It's complicated. There's commercial fishing, there's oysters. There's all kinds of crazy things that have to be taken into account. And, and there's a lot of agencies like Chris mentioned, you know, it gets complicated. And so.
and we have, we have politicians transitioning in and out and they may or may not be as well educated as they could be, but I rely on congressional sports and foundation to make sure they know the right path forward most of the time. And sometimes we'll nudge with a couple hundred thousand comments in their mailbox, but you know, it's something we all are constantly working on. And, I think, you know, that area deserves it. and, and we've got money to make things happen that can improve the habitat, improve the fisheries, improve.
Waterfowl nesting sites and habitat. so I, I'm just glad that we've, you know, you can't really do anything about funding. So I'm glad that we have some that we can continue to work on these things and just continue to advocate for the right way forward. And nobody ever sees eye to eye on everything, but we just keep working on it. And that's the beautiful thing about relationships and you know, just doing our best, right? And so things are still improving down there. Last time I was there with you, Brian, we had stacked up the triple tail and the cobia and it seemed pretty good.
Brian Bashore (53:26)
Yeah.
Lew Carpenter (53:26)
And then Chris, I was with you on snapper and cobia too. mean, the cobia keeps showing up. It seems like lately for me, but they're not easy either. And they need those reefs. They need those, those spots. Yeah. They like the rigs, man. We got to get on them. And that's a great fish. That's for sure. Great sport fish. So we just keep working at it. That's all we can do and try not to piss off too many people along the way and we can get a lot done.
Brian Bashore (53:36)
Those rigs, they like them rigs, man.
Chris Horton (53:49)
Okay.
Brian Bashore (53:50)
The work, the work
never ends. just, it's, it just rolls from one thing to another thing. I mean, and it all ties together and you talk about being funded. It's not often you hear some say we we've been funded and we have the money. Cause you think of like land water conservation fund and stuff. A lot of these things get passed and are authorized, but then they're never funded or fully funded. So everybody's jumping for joy and awesome. We, got this through that took.
Five, six, seven years. You're like, great. Now it's 10 more years or whatever it is until they're actually, there's a dollar behind it. And that process sucks.
Chris Horton (54:24)
Right.
Yeah. Most people don't realize that passing a bill to do something that authorizes a funding level, that's the first step. The second step is now you got to go back to the appropriators and through an appropriations bill, actually get the money for that. And Congress may not, or state legislators, legislatures as well, work similarly, some of them, but you can't, you're not guaranteed that. that project was authorized for 50 million. They may only give you 10 million. So you're going to come back the next year to try to get that other four year.
Brian Bashore (54:33)
Yeah, that's.
Chris Horton (54:54)
Anyway, it's a never ending process, but.
Brian Bashore (54:56)
Well, then what
people don't realize is, so if it is appropriated and let's say a PR fund or something, and now the state's being awarded 19 million or 10 million, and it's based off all sorts of formulas for which state gets what that state needs to match 25 % of it. Well, that's state may not have 25 % of it or whatever else. This is where it gets so far with people's heads that they're like, why, why the hell aren't we doing this? Why don't we have that? I pay all these license fees and you know, and blah, blah, blah. It's like, they manage, you know, we got 5 million acres of public land here.
South Dakota. mean, the black Hills are a big, big part of that, but that takes that's, you know, that stuff's coming off tax rolls. Yeah. We sell a ton of hunting and fishing license and obviously the fish, you know, the pheasant hunt is a big business here, but fishing's damn near as big and depending on the commodity market or outdoor rec can jump ahead of our ag economy. Otherwise it's, you know, it's one in two basically usually is the leaders in it, but that's things get dirty. Things aren't funded fully funded. gets
The language is confusing. People don't understand it. That's why.
Chris Horton (55:59)
Yeah.
It's a, it is complicated. And that's why I think a lot of sometimes sports members very complacent. It's like, I can't do anything about it. I don't even understand it or even how, anything works. But again, that's, that's why it's so important to join these various sports organizations out there. Cause I've got somebody like Lou or like me that work on government affairs and are on their at up there on the Hill or in the state Capitol on their behalf. So just
Lew Carpenter (56:12)
Go.
Chris Horton (56:27)
even joining organizations is helpful.
Brian Bashore (56:30)
Yeah, you can usually get some more layman's terms or a version of it brought down through your club or something that somebody, and it's not hard to understand once you're, when you're talking to a hunter or angler is going to, okay, yeah, I get it. Or I've seen this on the landscape, the meandering waters. mean, that's a Venice, that's a big Louisiana thing. It's a big South Dakota thing, you know, and it's so confusing for people when that came up here. And once again, not an issue until it was too late.
You don't want to brought up from sportsmen, not being good stewards of the land that wasn't theirs. And then not understanding public trust doctrine and how all the mud. We talk about some people that got educated real fast on how everything went, but when things get, and that's our session. So this is getting drug out for three months and that just burned people out to where they just threw their hands.
Lew Carpenter (57:17)
Yeah. Well, you look at something like the Army Corps of Engineers, you know, it's a 20 year project. How many administrations, how many different politicians are rolling through during that time, you know, influencing things and, know, they're doing their job. like Chris said, it's complicated. mean, even a podcast like this is complicated. I probably got Chris in trouble at least two or three times while I was jabbering away. So I, know, and I apologize for that buddy, but, I think you held your stoicism well while I was jabbering and, and, hopefully you're not in too much trouble.
Chris Horton (57:37)
You
no, you did good.
No, we're good. We're good.
Brian Bashore (57:48)
This
is, that's why we're real talk. We got to get to let it all out there. We could call out all sorts of names, but then again, that that's what needs to happen to get change. So, I mean, right. And that's what we're moving forward. What we got a new administration coming in.
Lew Carpenter (57:54)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Bashore (58:04)
Obviously this, the Trump's administration in whatever year that was 2016 to 20, we got quite a few things done, you know, and then obviously reverted, you know, a bunch of things back as well. what can we expect you think going forward here come January 20th?
Lew Carpenter (58:25)
I agree with you, Brian. We had some great successes during that administration. We had a few challenges and I think, you know, our organization looked at all of that. I was on our team looking at the scenario planning for the different, you know, if we had a Republican trifecta, if we had a split Congress, all those things, you know, just look at, look at what our opportunities are, what worked well for us during a particular type of administration. What, what do we think we can advance and just charge forward, right? Get done what we can get done. And so.
You should have us back maybe mid year Chris and I and then we can see where we're at at that stage. I actually have another call that started a minute ago, unfortunately, but I'll let Chris do his thing and I'll be a few minutes late to my call here. But thank you for having us on Brian.
Brian Bashore (58:54)
All right, let's see where we're at.
Yeah, yeah, you bet.
Chris Horton (59:08)
Yeah, no, again, Benford feathers, things that we care about and work on really do transcend party lines. in the previous Trump administration was, was very good on some of our stuff. And, and, you know, we just, we look for opportunities to work with this incoming administration to advance some of the, some of the issues and the causes and, and, and address some of the challenges for sportsmen out there. you know, it'll be, be a little bit before they get all their confirmations in the, in the.
You know, Department of Interior, Department of Commerce are two big ones for us. So whoever they get there and get in place, then we can begin developing those relationships if we didn't have them already with some of those folks and really beginning to work with them. know, they will ask the sports community, what can we do to make hunting, fishing, conservation better? you know, we look for those opportunities and work with them and get there. you know, the Trump administration or the following administration after that, you know, it's the same every time.
We talked about educating. It is education process. It starts all over every two years, state legislatures and the U S house of representatives. And, and, we've already put together a sheet. Are who all are we losing that, you know, have worked with us on either side of the aisle really well and who are coming in that we can, that probably come from the state that has a lot of hunting and fishing background, or they may have a relationship with their state natural resource agency. So they've already got a good start, but it's just a constant education process. And, you know, you.
Brian Bashore (1:00:11)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lew Carpenter (1:00:13)
Yeah.
Chris Horton (1:00:36)
You try to figure out where everybody kind of aligns on things and you know the things that you can work on in that space and you go for it.
Brian Bashore (1:00:46)
Outstanding and, you're right. They just, it, never end. So you heard it here from the couple of guys that know what the best folks and we'll try to wrap this up. Cause if you couldn't tell, we could talk about this stuff for hours. And, there's two guys that are passionate about it and getting it done for you folks on the, on the backside of it. So you can get out there and enjoy your time in the woods and on the water. And, the best thing I'll just throw the nugget out there for them. Join your local sportsman's group, join your local conservation group.
Lew Carpenter (1:00:52)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Brian Bashore (1:01:14)
DU, your PF, your congressional sports, his foundation. And it doesn't matter which one get in there, the numbers, self learn, educate, like Chris just said, cause the learning never ends. And when it does work, we got problems. So it's too late at that point. So, all right guys, well, thank you for your time. I know you're a couple real busy dudes and I know Lou's got calls all day long and webinars and they could be on Lord knows what topics, but I'm sure he'll be well entertained.
Chris Horton (1:01:40)
I've got to jump on a call too about sharks. So going from.
Lew Carpenter (1:01:40)
and Meri-
Brian Bashore (1:01:45)
Jarks.
Lew Carpenter (1:01:46)
Excellent.
Hey, and Merry Christmas, gentlemen, too. You know, happy holidays and all this. We're in the season, so I hope you guys get some time off, too. I know you both work harder than I do, so I hope you get some rest.
Brian Bashore (1:01:47)
Well, I'm Yeah.
I don't know about that, but it's winter time. I'm off to the gym. So, all
right. Thank you gentlemen. And, yeah, it's very Christmas and when, we will hopefully see you soon and some warmer temps. So, all righty. So thank you all for tuning into this episode of real talk fishing with no limits. And thanks to our special guest, Luke Carpenter and Chris Horton, join us for sportsman's group people. That's the answer. So stay safe and we'll see you on the ice.