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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
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For me to not be two different people, because number one, that's exhausting. Because I've definitely done it. Yes, it is exhausting. I've been there. it is exhausting, but I'm just at a point in my life where it's not worth it to live separate lives. Welcome to season four of Reinventing Church. I'm Danielle Hartland and I'm here with Pastor Derek Sanford. Right. Hello. Hi Danielle. Hello, everybody.
this season we're exploring the practical hows of moving from a purely attractional to a missional multiplication model of church. what it looks like everyday, real people, not just us only talking about it, but we found some people who can help us along. every other week we'll talk from either talk with either Dave or Shane from Clarity House, for about practical ministry. And this week is one of our everyday influencer episodes and we're gonna be talking to Brittany Bilowus, who's one of our members of Grace. Yeah.
and so this will be a real interview. Yeah, it's I'm excited for everyone to hear it. Yeah. so she's gonna talk a little bit about work and sharing her faith and things like that. So I thought for us, and maybe I don't know if I can even answer this, so I don't know if it's a good question, but what you might be able to what is something about our working relationship that people might misunderstand like from the outside? Wow. Or have you heard of anything where people are like, hey, what the Well
What's with her? Why? I mean I heard lots of those things. How much do you want me to reveal? please. I've thought of it all about myself, so please please go. I promise you. No one can say anything worse. Yeah, I think so you know, people if they've heard this podcast will know we can get a little sarcastic. Yeah, of course. And so, you know, I think sarcasm and fun and poking and probably even a little more than
normal people in normal working relationships are comfortable with. We just cause we know each other so well. We've done this a long time. So it's like we can really dig at each other because we know too much. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So that that's probably one thing that I think, you know, people I so here's here's like people who come onto our staff who've never been on a church staff before. Like I think one of the things that shocks them is just like the level of of of funny. Yeah. Like that we're we're we joke a lot. Like they thought we were gonna be walking around in robes, you know Yes.
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chanting and and singing hymns or whatever and it's like there there's a lot of funny and there's a lot of poking fun and sarcasm and j like that that I feel like that's our outlet. I think anybody who does very serious work with like very serious problems and are dealing at, you know, the intersections of life that are difficult usually has some sort of a funny outlet or some that you have to you have to be able to laugh.
About the things that you should laugh about. So I I pr I think probably that's one of them. Yeah, that's a good one. A little bit more fun and sarcastic than they expected. Yeah. I've had a couple of people be surprised
okay. It's gonna come out bad. No. be surprised at the way I talk to you. yeah, I've heard that too. I and like that can be good and bad. Right. And I've adjusted accordingly sometimes. But I'm not like you know, like I'm not dis I'm not I'm never trying to disrespect you. Like that would never even cross my mind. But like I think it comes across as like very like familial and direct. Direct. Right. And a lot of times, and this is my personality coming through.
I get more and more it's just very I make it way too obvious. I get way more comfortable with people who know me really well. Right. And I can slow that process for other people. I guess is a nice one to say. I can be guarded. You can. Yeah. I am the guard. but so I think people will sometimes get shocked because I might turn to you in a meeting and go ba ba ba ba ba. Right. Yeah.
Not in a rude way, but just like this is the thing that I think. And with other people, I'm like, well, have you ever thought about you because you know that I'm for you. I know that you're for me. Right. And I want that for everyone. But that that for me, that's probably been the most consistent. No, that's a really good one. And I and I'm actually glad it's one of the things I'm glad about this podcast for for that people can see that because I but because I do think it breaks down this, you know, as as our
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platform has gotten bigger at grace and and that sort of thing is more people are kinda training their eyes to us. I think one of the most dangerous things that can happen is there can be this platforming of, you know, thinking of me on a certain pedestal. And you're never gonna get that with us. Sorry. Exactly. No, but I but I do think there's just like a hey, this is normal. We're normal people. People
Be honest with me. Yeah. my gosh, we have to honor you way up here and never actually talk straight with you. Right. I think that's actually dangerous when it's I agree. So well, I think that's how we've had conversations in groups before where you have said like you know, I think these are the pitfalls for like isolation and like loneliness and all those things that for people like you. And so Yeah, that's good. Yeah, but between you and my wife and kids, I will never have
I will never be lacking in humility. Yeah. Good. Yay. You guys you keep me humble. And when I die, God will be like All right. You thank you. You did this one. Well done. He was gonna go way off the rails. But you also are open to it. Which is key. Well On the outside. huh. What I mean is you're also you're also very good at being open. We recently had someone come back who was on staff and like
chose a different not in a bad way, but like chose a different calling. And I remember he came back to town and he sat around a table. it was a preaching team table, I think, and he was just like, This does not happen. This is not like everywhere. We're like the person who's the best at it, who does it, which would be you, is sitting around a table taking feedback from people. So it's also a culture you've always been like that. Like even from the beginning. So I think that and we can re we let's rec let's rename the podcast.
Danielle say as many nice things about Derek as possible. Cast, I'd be all for that. Yeah. I'm I'm here for We'll think about it. All right. No we don't. no, we won't. all right. So we're talking so we tr we're gonna do that. We're talking today about like the work stuff and like being really an everyday influence. An everyday influential. And just how do we engage culture? Yeah, right. Especially a culture these days that's against us.
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against Christians by and large. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's a real that's a real line to walk. Yeah. So in your opinion, what's worse? Is it the guy who like leaves a gospel tract with no tip? Or is it the guy nobody at the office even knows goes to church? Right. And that's the That's a good yeah. That's the that's the line. Yeah. That I think we have to wrestle with. I think the church has been wrestling with it for a long time. Yeah.
It's interesting I heard so yeah, you've got the gospel tract guy. This is like you you don't need money, you just need Jesus. And then you don't need money like me at this restaurant. But then I heard I heard a very, very prominent CEO of a company who's a Christian t talk recently in a closed room about having to she she literally gave this example. She said, I I found myself going into certain rooms. She said, I wear a cross around my neck.
Going into certain rooms and tucking my cross into my sweater. Yeah. Because I didn't think it would go well in that room. And so there is this like I have to hide. So some people who are just like so Jesus y that I'm not even a normal person. Right. And some people who are just like, I am Jesus y, but I gotta hide it. Well, and I remember before I worked here, working in an office environment and like that whole water cooler thing. Yeah. I don't know if you're experiencing it, but it's not fake. That happens. Like people whatever you're gathering around in the morning in the break room or whatever. Yeah. And it's like
Blah blah blah blah blah. Football, blah, blah, blah, blah, foot, blah, blah, blah, blah. And whatever. And then there's like, and my kids' soccer game and my ki Well, those sports don't go together, but you know what I mean. Right. This and that and the other thing. But da da da da. And like I remember being there and being like, Okay, I was at the lock in for the youth thing and then I had church and then I It's like cool, cool. Like and you know, I was younger, so it was different, but like there it it there is some like check that's like, is it okay here? You know. Yeah.
So here's what I want to do a quick a quick monologue, little history lesson here about h how do we engage culture. And you know, some people go culture, we don't need to worry about culture. Well tell saying that we don't have to worry about culture is like a fish saying that they don't have to worry about water. You know, because it's like we live in it, we're swimming in it and all the time. We have no choice but to deal with this culture that we're in. And there there was a time when the church
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was the center of society. So when the church and it wasn't long ago, the church building was the biggest one in the center square of town and the pastor was a prominent person and invited to all the important tables and you know when people had questions they would turn to to the pastor and the church calendar ran the community and the bells would ring and for the you know to keep time. I mean it was all the artists wanted to work on all the stuff that the church was doing. Like all the yeah yeah and none of that is true anymore.
In fact, just the opposite. Right. And so every Christian walking into their workplace or wherever they're walking into on a Monday morning, like you said, around the water cooler, is on mission. Yeah. And, you know, I heard a great definition from Andrew Walls. He said the fundamental missionary experience is to live on terms set by others. So you think about it, a missionary goes into a country, it's like the reason they're a missionary
is because this culture is setting different terms than they're comfortable with. And so you have to go, Now, how do I make Jesus relevant in this culture under these parameters on this in these terms who are set by somebody else and how do I bring Jesus into that? And that's really, you know, w most of those terms are set by a manager. Yeah. You know, we'll find out from Britney, a call queue, a neighborhood association, an HR board, you know, whatever.
But I wanna there's a couple of examples here that I think are are relevant. So this coach Joe Kennedy was a coach in Washington and some people will remember this news story, the the fifty yard line prayer after the game. So after the games he he got together with anybody who wanted to and they prayed at midfield and the the school district put him on leave and he lost his job. And twenty twenty two the Supreme Court ruled for him
And so he went back I people probably don't know the ending of this story. Yeah, this is he went back in September of twenty twenty three, coached one game, prayed alone at midfield for ten seconds, and resigned. my gosh. J just he cited, I need to spend more time with my family where but he made his point. Wow. So so that's one side. Alistair Begg, some people know the pastor Alistair Begg, who's a pastor not far from us here in Ohio.
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You know, h it was a call in radio show and somebody gr some grandmother called in in twenty twenty three and asked him if she should go to her grandchild's wedding to a transgender person and he told her to go and bring a gift as long as her grandchild already knew where she stood on her faith, there's n he said basically there's no sense in kind of doubling down on this thing that they already know. And they invited you anyway. And they invited you, right? And so, and his aim was to say, Don't lose your grandchild.
Don't lose some influence that you might still have in your grandchild's life. And in January 2024, American Family Radio dropped his radio national radio program over this. he stood by his advice in a sermon. and so, you know, I think those are just a couple of model modern, fairly known examples of like, so how do we do it? How do Christians and
You know, I'll I'll I'll say, do you blend in right and just kind of pretend you're not a Christian? Do you hide away from culture and be like, we're gonna just make our own stuff. So, you know, and I again a couple of modern examples of this, I don't know they're fully about this, but the you remember the He Gets Us Super Bowl. yeah, yeah. And and so one of the big ones, you know, they spent more than seven hundred million dollars on these ads, but you know, one of them was a a guy in a John three sixteen hat.
Hugging another person at a Pride March with the tagline, Jesus showed us what greatness was and a lot of conservatives came out and said, you know, this is woke and this is all these things. so that would be an example of maybe b blending in a little bit, going, We we want to reach into this culture. another example is just this what what I would call the Christian parallel economy that says there's all these companies doing this, let's make Christian companies that do the same thing. Do it.
So twenty twenty one, this company called PublicSquare started and it calls itself the leading conservative Christian alternative to Amazon dot com and Yelp dot com, right? So 'cause those don't even it grew go together. It grew very fast during the remember all of the Bud Light, the Bud Light boycotts and all that kind of stuff. And so again, that's another thing is to go, we're gonna create our own little enclave over here and never deal with the world.
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Here's the here's the thing I want to say before I give a couple of historical examples of this. The church has always had two ways to lose its witness become just like culture or wall itself off from culture. Yeah. And historically, I think there's a third way. I think Brittany's going to show us a third way in her interview today. give us some great principles to live into. So you know, I think there's a misunderstood passage. Jesus is praying his prayer in John seventeen for his disciples. Remember the night before the cross.
And he says this famous phrase that we've sloganed, but I think we've sloganed it wrong. So he says, I do not ask that you take them out of the world. So he's praying to God about us. I don't ask that you take them out of the world. As you sent me into the world, so I've sent them into the world. And so the slogan that we created from this verse is, We are in the world, but not of the world. You've heard this before. but it gets two things wrong. It gets the wrong word. So Jesus did not say in the world, we're in the world. He said in the
Into the world, which are different things. Totally. And so being in is a is an issue of location. Being sent into is an assignment. Yeah. And so that's the wrong word. And we used the wrong order. So we said in the world, but not of the world. and that makes it sound like the goal of the Christian life is mostly just staying clean. Yeah. Right. Keep it yep. Keep it clean. Yep. For Jesus, the not of the world was the starting place.
So he said they they're not of the world, but I have sent them into the world. Yeah. And so the send into now becomes where they're going. It becomes the point. Right. Not the point is not not to be not of the world. Right. The point is to be sent into the world. And so, you know, I think we start there as a as kind of a a Jesus place. I think Daniel also gives us a very interesting model for this. If you look at Daniel when he went into, you know, the foreign land.
And he compromises in our th on the name that he's given. He's given Belteshazzar , which is the name of like a foreign idol. his education. He goes through a, you know, multi year program in witchcraft in the ways of Babylon, doesn't throw a fuss. Yeah. he gives up his future family, he joins this kind of thing he becomes the chief of the eunuchs. And so, you know, so he co he compromises in our fra on all of these things, and then he draws the line at the foot. Yeah.
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the food. He's No, I'm not gonna eat your food. And so it's this interesting study of like, what do we give on? Yeah. Where do we draw the line? Where do we take our stand? It's not on everything. Right. We see those people who take their stand on everything and they're just annoying. Yeah. They're not they're the needle anyway. They're the track instead of the tip guy at the restaurant. Right. the keyboard warriors. Right, exactly. So Daniel I think becomes this kind of great, great model. That's good. and he, you know
We find out later in Daniel six that he he he he's been praying three times a day through this whole thing. you know, 'cause it says he's prayed three times a day as he had done previously. So we find out that this whole time he's been praying, he draws the line at the food. And I love, you know, again, Rhodes we quote him all the time, but you know, he talks about Daniel going, he he said he didn't say trust me, he said test me when it came to the food. So don't just trust, trust, trust my God. This is what we do today. Yeah. Just trust me. I'm a Christian. I know what I'm talking about. I'm there
And Daniel was like, no, test me. I'm gonna obey God and you test and see if his way isn't better than than your way. And so I think we could gain a lot more of that. So but anyway, I think through s through history we see these three different postures. one is I would call the chameleon, okay, where we just kind of blend into culture. And one really vivid example of this is a is a missionary story way, way back in the in literally the first century.
the Church of East India. And so there were some missionaries that went out from Persia and Syria and they went into China, East China. And we found these things later that showed how they shared the gospel in East China. And it was a total chameleon thing. So it Jesus was almost unrecognizable. They had tried so hard to
communicate Jesus to this culture that they used all of the cultural things to describe him to the point where Jesus got lost. Yeah. And so, you know, they called the Bible sutras, you know, which is the big the the vocabulary that they use to describe Jesus is Buddhist and Taoist in the in its vocabulary. It tells of the Messiah's birth but says nothing about his crucifixion, nothing about his resurrection. And so they're they're trying to tell them about Jesus, but they translated it so far
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that Jesus actually got lost. And I think it it's a good picture of going, are there ways that we try to be Jesus in our culture that we try so hard to culturalize him that that Jesus gets lost? and when we try to make sure there's nothing that offends everybody anybody and nothing to we go so far that we're just chameleons. Yeah. The other extreme is the fortress. Okay. So where you go, okay, culture
You know, the world go this way, we're gonna build this over here. And so, you know, I think American fundamentalism is a good interesting I example of this. So you have the Scopes trial that happens in nineteen twenty five, and these American fundamentalists who got kind of got humiliated in the press during that whole thing pulled back, they started to build
Parallel Christian everything. So par Christian universities, Bible called Christian radio, Christian schools, Christian music, Christian no Christian t shirts, Christian sweatshirt. Like you just go down the line and go, We've just Christianized everything and built our own stuff. and I think an extreme example of this is a modern example is the Amish. Yeah. You know, it's like they they you go so far to go, we're just gonna wall ourselves off. We're gonna pretend none of you even exist because we've got our own little world.
Unless we have to go to TJ Maxx. Yeah. Right. And we'll get in the van real quick and we'll see you there. It's all good. We're not driving it. I love it. Yeah. My favorite was we the Global Leadership Summit a few years ago, we had some Amish groups that come and they were like, We can't register on we had a all online registration. We c we don't have computers, we can't register online. And so they s look over and see somebody, you can do it on a phone? Yeah, I got my phone. Sorry for anyone's ears. Right. I forgot about that. huh.
So you have the chameleon on one side, blend in totally. You've got the fortress on the other side, which is hide, store store yourself away. And then I think this middle space is the restoration, the restorer. And one of my favorite figures over the last two years, sorry everybody, it's nerdy, but Abraham Kuyper from the late eighteen hundreds in the Netherland and in the Netherlands. He he's just this incre I'm not gonna go into it, but he's this incredible figure who became this restorer of a whole culture.
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And his story, he he just faced both of these ditches of chameleon or, you know, fortress, and he just he chose this middle space. And I think when we drift he went on to become prime minister, by the way, but he w he had this like it started out with this like very, very liberal theology, got called out in a in a small village he was living with his family and one of the millers in the in the
village, his daughter in his church congregation, wouldn't shake Kuiper's hand because of some crazy stuff that he had been preaching. And his interactions with the he started a relationship with his girl and visiting her and listening to her what she had to say, she changed him and helped him to kind of become this restorative voice in the Netherlands in the late eighteen hundreds. So but he he his quote and actually I use it in my newsletter, Ordinary Altar newsletter
One of the quotes I love is he says, There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry mine. And so I have a place in my newsletter called Every Square Inch. And that it's from this Kuyper quote where he just says, He has domain over every square. It's not just the church, it's in your business spaces, in the nonprofit space, in your neighborhood. He has domain over every square inch. So I think the drift
that we find ourselves in is when we can kind of toggle between these two ditches. Yeah. You know, when we build a fortress when we feel threatened, and and we become a chameleon when we want to be liked. And both those ditches are about comfort. Yeah. And and so, you know, I think we need to find what does it look like in the modern times to be a restorer? And I think Jeremiah twenty nine gives us this great model. You know, the exiles are in Babylon,
This is the city they're living in that burned the temple, you know, so this is the enemy. This is the enemy culture. and the the Jews in exile are wondering, should we hunker down? Should we blend in? What do we do? God says, in Jeremiah twenty-nine, build houses and live in them, plant gardens and eat their produce. So settle in, seek its good. So then he says, Seek the welfare of the city where I've sent you. The word is shalom. Seek the shalom, the the blessing of the city.
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Where I have sent you. And that's important too. Because note who did the sending. Right. It wasn't the Babylonians. It was God Himself that put them there. And then pray for it. Pray to the Lord on its behalf. For in its welfare you will find your your welfare. So pray for culture. Pray for Babylon, which is the hardest line in the whole thing. So again, I'll just state my point here and then we'll get to Brittany. The church has always had these two ways to lose its witness become just like the culture or wall itself off from the culture.
We must find the redemptive, restorative, missional third way. That's good. Cool. we're gonna Britney's one of ours. George sat down with her a few weeks ago and we pulled a few pieces of that conversation to talk through today. the whole thing, if you want to see the whole thing uncut, Derek is uploading that on his YouTube channel, so you can find that in the show notes. Here is Brittany. Yeah, so I currently work at Erie Insurance.
I've been there for about two and a half years and I do processing and I am on phones, I speak to agents and met like knowledge park area, but it is a cubicle setting, so it's definitely a little bit different than what I've you been used to in the past. And what was that? Yeah. And I have been some like medical offices admin front office. So I had a lot of
face to face interaction with my prior jobs. And there was a time, like a season in my life where I was like ready to get away from that and kind of explore the corporate worlds essentially in a way of being able to grow and develop myself personally. And I knew that Erie Insurance would be able to give me the opportunity. What I'm hearing is that you you felt equipped then to go into your workplace and bring your faith with you. Let's start with the first place you worked. How did you go about doing that there?
Yeah, so I worked in a dental office in North East, which is where I l reside, and I was
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It I was just so excited and I've always been like this. Once I realized that faith and going to church and having a community, I wanted other people to experience that. I didn't want to just keep it to myself. So Brittany is this awesome member of our worship team at Grace Harborcreek, one of our locations and
she is just like her spirit, I mean it's coming through, I'm sure, but like her spirit is so genuine and sweet and kind. And I remember one time I had like an opportunity to pray for her and pray with her and her husband and and just just learning about her heart, like this is this is who she is. This is not some sort of just like f fake put on thing. Like this is genuinely who she is as a person and she's just beautiful soul.
Yeah, Brittany was in one of our training labs with me as she was going through one of her real difficult things that she's going to talk about. And just to watch her process through that was just really, really incredible. And you know, she one of one of the things I wanna say is she's an extrovert. Yeah. So you can tell this like she's very bubbly and very what I want people to know is that we're we're gonna get at some principles that don't require you to be an extrovert. Yeah. Okay. So the the the
I think the principles still hold. I I don't want people to listen and go, Well, yeah, if you were that kind of a bubbly person, this would come easy to you. Right. I think there's some s things we need to learn from her. Right. So she talks about two really different desks. She she came from a dental office, and and now she's in a cubicle at a very big Fortune five hundred company kind of thing. And so she's had two different experiences that she's gonna kinda go back and forth through, but it's the same person. And I want people to see what she does as she arrives at her job each day.
It's normally after my quiet time, which is typically either in the morning or the evening, just depending on the day. I have my favorite moments talking to God and allowing him to put people on my heart is in my car. So I typically when I was driving to work, I would just ask God, okay, like who am I supposed to talk to today? Who am I to encourage? And like what what is this gonna look like today? And just kind of
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basically put the armor of God on me to protect me from the things that I can't control, the stressors, the rude people, the hard conversations with phone calls, the moments I had to explain someone that they owed sixteen hundred dollars for a crown. So here I want to name something that we just heard from Britney. influence starts before the interactions begin. Right. So she's asking God before she's even face to face with anybody, God, who who do you want me to see? How do you want me to interact?
a lot of people pray on the way to work for all kind of different reasons. Some of them are pretty like, God get me through this. but Brittany's praying about who the work is for that day. God, who do you have for me? And so th in her prayer she said she has rude callers, hard phone calls, a sixteen hundred dollar crown that she has to talk somebody through. And so she's bringing God into this into billing conversations. You know, which again, back to Abraham Kuyper, every square inch is God's domain. And so
again, introvert check here, Danielle for the likes of us. Mm-hmm. Nothing in this clip requires a personality type. She's praying in her car on the way to work, God, what do you have for me to do? Absolutely. You know. I love that. And just yeah, what are what what's my assignment? Yeah. What are you having me And you know, we've we've prayed this this tool recently to to our congregation called borrowed eyes. So we're just saying, God help give I think it's a simple way to frame it. God, give me your eyes. What's your heart for people? What's your what's your assignment for me? Yeah.
And those two questions, well each each, you know, lens of the glasses. What's your heart for them? What's your assignment for me? And just kind of praying, you know, seeding the soil with that prayer every room you walk into. And guess what? he knows you. So your assignment isn't gonna be if you're an introvert, stand up on the stage and take the mic from the person and tell the five thousand people the thing. It's gonna be the thing for you. It's really good. Yeah. That's a good point. So asking who is the first step, she does that on her way to work.
Brittany's gonna tell us about one specific who and really how long this story actually took. And so she's talking here about one of the assistants in her office. Listen to what she says. There was moments when she was going through hard times and I would literally just stop my day with the permission of my office manager to go and pray with her. wow. And to just know that I'm here to listen, whether that was for her to just cry on my shoulder. and she
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received that really well. And she was also that for me when I needed times when I was just like, I can't do this or I'm stressed. and I was slowly able to tell her about God and just praying over her opened that door initially. And then she would see how I acted different. I would talk differently. I would handle situations differently than others. And she would it kind of allowed her to ask questions. And so
That was where I was able to explain, like God does this. Like I can't do all the things that I do. And it allowed me to just be that person that people are looking for. It's either listen to or just confide in. And I built that trust with her. Have there been any stories where you've seen a long story play out? Yes. actually, so though.
Girl that I referenced in the past job, she was actually a name that I wrote on the floor of Grace Harbor Creek when we were building that building. So we had a moment where we could write three names and we would pray for them at three o'clock, three names. So it was like three at three for three. Three names, three o'clock, three times was it three times a day? I know it was three, three days.
But she was one of my three. and I just know that someday God would just kind of do what he does. And you say you knew you had like an assurance in your spirit? Yeah. I I just knew that someday not that I would want something crazy in a bad way to happen. Of course. But something did happen to her personally. she did lose her husband. She's
in her thirties. She lost her husband and that like she came to me and told me if I didn't have the seed planted by you, like for you to inspire me that God is real and I can have faith in him and hope in him, I wouldn't been I would not have been able to get through this grief portion. And she's still going through it. He passed away, I think, last year and
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She had come to me and just told me I've just totally given my life to Christ and she's listening to worship music. And she does sometimes watch Grace online. but she was like, she made me tear up because she literally was just like, if it wasn't for you, and then there's another girl that I'm friends with that also impacted her. and so I was just like literally, I was like, that's not me. Like God knew from the beginning that you would need.
friends that would be able to cheer you on and encourage you and point you to Christ. And that was a huge moment for me that realized, I mean it took years. I haven't worked there in four years. So and I worked at that dental office for four years. So here's the thing I want I wanna to notice about what she just said. It's the our job is to plant and pray and then the harvest is God's job. Right. So she planted seeds
she she even lost proximity with this person. Yeah. But because she had planted seeds and because she was praying, her influence didn't end you know, when the proximity did. And so this the gospel conversation came long after trust was established. And so any kind of spiritual fruit, if you will, from that came years after her last day. And I you know, I think it's an important principle for people to think about because if we measure our influence by
What we see right now in this moment, you know, she she would have called it a failure. We often call it a failure because we're thinking about spiritual influence as this transactional moment. Yes. I do these things, you do that thing, you fall on your knees and pray to accept Jesus or whatever. And it's like that it just doesn't happen that way. And one thing and I know this is not super personal, but one thing that re reminds me about this and trains me about it every year is our big like Christmas thing we do downtown. Because we'll
We'll hear three years later when someone's getting baptized, we'll realize, that was the first time they ever was exposed we were exposed to the gospel or whatever. Yeah. It is a long game. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. I also like that sh and she said here with the permission of my office manager. So she she's not sneaking she's not sneaking around doing things that are not they're not supp supposed to do. she's honoring the structure that exists and she's kind of working inside it. That's good.
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I also love that she said about this that that she was also there for me. You know, she I was there for her, but she was there for me. And so this is a this is a friendship that's running both directions. This person's not a project for Britney. This is a a a a trust relationship that's established over time. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah. All right. So wait. yeah, go ahead. She talked about writing names on the floor of Grace Harbor Creek. Yeah. Remember this moment? absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So it's something that we've done before, but when we build a new building we we
before the carpet goes down, we'll often r just pray and write names. And so th just this idea that she's she wrote that person's name. She declared crazy her her freedom, you know, before way, way before. And, you know, I think in all of our buildings that we have, some of the most important things that happen there are stuff that that nobody can see. Yeah. It's good. So so here, as with many stories, is where it gets difficult. a few years ago something happened to her that she didn't choose and the people that she
had talked to about God years before, came back to see how, you know, how she handled it. And she had to go through a really hard thing as a musician and a worship leader. she lost her hearing, which is insane. So let's hear about that. Yep. It lost my hearing like a few years ago. And that was an opening door for other people to see how God moved in me. And those people that I talked to were curious and were like, you're getting through this hard time. How?
And I was like, Well, like I have faith and God's gonna like work in this moment that I'm mad at him for. So it was definitely one of that moment in my life allowed the people that I talked to a while ago about God at work to then reapproach me and say, How are you getting through this? Like this is a big problem. Like this is something hard that you have to go through. Your story reminds me of
Some stuff I've I've I've learned about Job, about the story of Job. That Job the the point of Job isn't to rejoice when you suffer. you know, it it it Job was legitimately upset. Mm-hmm. He he was angry, he was hurt, and he the the point was he kept going back to God. He brought his his sorrow, his anger, his frustration to God. It sounds like that's what you did. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah, fullheartedly. It was definitely
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God got to see all the emotions. I was mad. I would like ignore him. I literally was just like, I'm not dealing with you right now. So I want to talk about one real takeaway here is that your struggle is part of your witness. So I think we we like to we like to think that we have to tell people how great everything is and that's the way they're gonna come to Jesus or their heart's gonna be softened or whatever. Like they respect you for your accomplishments, they relate to you through your struggles.
Absolutely. And so the more vulnerable we can be about the stuff that we struggle with, you know, peop people are watching and they're w watching, you know, the the co workers that had watched her for years are now all of a sudden coming back when she was hurting. Yeah. and they they won't wanted to see where what would happen when her life started to fall apart. Right. And, you know, they were there for her too. And you know, I think just kind of this she's mad at God and she's so we see this thing that we all know happens.
Where you can be angry at God and trust in God at the same time. That just because you're one doesn't mean you're not the you know, that you're not the other. And it it's lament. Yeah. It's the Psalms of Lament. That's what they do. You know, they start they start how long, Lord, will you forget me forever? You know, so you've there's this. Also you're the best and I love you and things. And that's how it ends. I trust in your steadfast love. Yep. And those t we can hold both of those things in our hands and and when we do
Our witness, our influence over other people skyrockets. it's this treasure in jars of clay thing. Yeah. The jars of clay just means it's an ordinary piece of pottery. It's not the real nice stuff that sits on the store shelf. Yeah. It's an ordinary everyday piece of pottery which had cracks and all kinds of stuff through it, is imperfect, blah blah. Why did God put the treasure in in jars of clay? So that people would know it's him and not us. And so when we go through our weakness, we can be honest about our weakness, but when God's there for us, He gets the glory. Yeah.
And so I think her coworkers got to see a Christian who keeps coming back to God even when it hurts, even when the you know, the the pain is there. Yeah. And we just talked yesterday about this w one of our introductory calling classes helps people inventory their life through three things. W what were you born with, what were you built with, what were you broken with? And all three of those goes into a calling.
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This is a broken with story. Here's what here's what I've been broken with. This thing I did not see coming, I did not expect. But man, it became an important part of her of her influence on people. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So for those who are listening to this and going, well, I'm not Britney. I don't have four years and a dramatic story. Well, George asked her that then. Yep. what would you what would you tell someone like that? Or and so here's here's her response. I would say build the trust.
And don't jump right in. and people will see a difference in you. And I think curiosity is what really brings out faith sometimes because of how you react and how you respond to things. but I definitely think instilling that trust is important. And when they do have a moment where they come to you and they feel like they can come to you. For me, I have scriptures and encouraging words in my cubicle.
So when they come to visit me, they get to look at it and I'm not taking it down. So I think for someone that wants to incorporate their faith into their workplace, it takes time and don't like think that it needs to happen the first week that you start. Or even if you've been at your workplace for years and you're like, I'm either new to the faith and I don't know how to incorporate that. For me
I mean, just putting things in my cubicle, that's a start too. Like if you have a cubicle setting or a desk, you can have like a little like scripture verse, something little and discreet, if your workplace allows it. And just start small and see what God does and just kind of put that in God's hands. I love this part, Danielle, because it she starts with trust and she starts very small. And so, you know, a verse on your desk, a little patience to go further.
Yeah. is way more important than some sort of like information dump. Yeah. And so you know, the the I'm not taking it down is c is courage. Yeah. It it's a little bit of courage. Yeah. And and that kind of small courage that doesn't mean hidden. It just means it's this kind of building block. I still want to come back again to if your workplace allows it. So there's this like still honoring the structure.
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This isn't a fight with HR or something like that. She's honoring the structure. And so, you know, I think, you know, even just thinking about what's one small visible thing that a person could put in their workspace this year or this week and leave it there. Just like this is a small act of courage. It's a small act of obedience to pulling the the cross necklace out of the sweater. Yeah. You know? And I I think that's really really good. let's have let's let Brittany have a last word. Yep. I couldn't do this without
God and without my community at ch of ch of my church. They just the people that surround me, my friends, my worship team, the pastoral staff, anybody that I really come in contact with at church, whether they're in my tight circle or not, I feel seen and supported. And I know that other people have a lot of other things going on, but God is still good. And
Life is still worth living. I just have to live life a little differently. Okay. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good another good one. Here's an experiment I'd love people to do this week. Just every workday. we'll start where Brittany started. Every workday before you get out of your car, walk through the door, whatever. ask God Britney's question. Who is today for? Yeah. And then listen. Listen. Maybe write it down. Maybe do one small thing for the person that God
shows you or brings to your mind, send them a text or ask him a question, listen to them for five minutes longer than you normally do. Whatever. But Yeah. Yeah, I think just that qu Who's today's for is a really good. And again, I'll remind all the introverts. Yep. this one's for you too. Right. I mean everything everything she did we can do. It might take an extra lap around a parking lot. Right. In the car. you walk out You know, if it is a little bit of a little bit of a stretch, you know, just drive a little bit longer. Yep.
Just praying. Yeah. If anybody's interested, we said earlier the full interview's over on my YouTube channel. That's Pastor Derek Sanford. And so they can go watch the whole thing if they're interested. And while they're there, subscribe. That'd be nice if they want to follow me. Wow. Why don't you just do the whole outro? I love it. No, go. Okay. Thanks for joining us. I hope you found today inspiring and helpful. like Derek said, you can get that you know what, you already did it, so I'm not gonna repeat it. Okay, go. Just go to reinventing church. No
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DerekSanford.com. Goodbye. Bye. Next week Shane's here to talk about outreach. Peace.