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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky: Hi, Taina. I’m really excited to do this with you.
Taina: I am too I'm a little nervous but it's going to be good yeah.
Becky: What are the nerves about?
Taina: I haven't recorded something that's public-facing in a while so…
Becky: This is a lovely example for everyone of just putting yourself out there right; embracing the fear.
Taina: Absolutely.
Becky: I'm excited to share with you and, hopefully, a regular once-a-month thing that we're going to do called Ask a Feminist Coach. We're both feminist coaches. Maybe you can quickly say how your work shows up. I'm an accountability coach and I work with founders who are somewhere in that transition point of going from small business owner to CEO, or solopreneur with a team of consultants to maybe their first hire and taking that next big jump up. And your work is…?
Taina: I am a life and career coach for busy and burned out millennials who exist at multiple intersections—think of women of color, Black women, folks in the LGBTQ+ community—and I'm also a DEI educator and facilitator.
Becky: Perfect! My audience or clients tend to be slightly older. Some millennials, what do we call them, elder millennials?
Taina: Or Geriatric millennials! (Taina laughs out loud)
Becky: Hey, I don’t think so! Let’s go elder. Elder sounds wise. Geriatric sounds like you’re at the end. We're going to answer questions and decide if you'd like to send a question for us for a coming month, please do that. We have a place to do that in this email.
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We're going to start with an anonymous question: When moving from a contract to a permanent position is it okay to negotiate salary? I was just saying to Taina it's one that I could go two ways with. One is the short answer, which is yeah!
Taina: Yes, right? Like, hell yes,
Becky: Hell yes! So that's more of the advisor in me. Putting on my coach hat, what makes you feel like you can't negotiate a salary? Because inside of that there's probably some very interesting conditioning to explore.
Taina: I agree 100% I think we are used to just accepting what comes our way without questioning it and you should really question everything including yourself including, the thoughts and ideas that you have about how you operate in the workplace and out in the world. So, 100%m ask yourself why you feel like you can't, and then go from there. Even if you still feel like you can't negotiate, do it anyway. Let it be a way to practice questioning yourself and challenging yourself to ask for and receive more out of life.
Becky: Going back to what you just shared is the same as you doing this? (Becky laughs)
Taina: Yes! (Taina laughs)
Becky: You’re embracing fear. You reached out to me and asked, “Hey do you want to do this thing?” and I was like, ‘this is a great idea, yes!’ I would bet there was some fear inside of asking. Am I allowed to ask for this? What might this person think if I ask? You faced that fear and did it. So, by the way, if you ask for a salary change and you get it, the next fear comes along. Can I perform? Will I live up to the standard? Can I do it? And you have to face that fear. That's what life is: facing the next fear. I love that you're modeling what you just said.
Taina: That’s what we do as coaches, right?
Becky: Well, we try! (Becky laughs) We are not infallible by any measure. Many times, I let the fear win for the day because that's also sometimes what we do and that's okay. But I'm sure that will come up elsewhere. Okay, question 2: What are strategies you have for navigating multiple changes happening all at once? Taina, you wanted to make sure we get to this question, so I'd love to start with you.
Taina: This question resonated with me because Q1 (quarter one) of this year, for me personally, was so much change happening all at once so it feels fresh. Practically, something that helped me in the past is prioritizing which changes to focus on. Which changes are going to have the most impact or are going to need the most work? All the other changes that fall lower on that list, see if there's a way that you can delegate some of that to people in your community. When you're navigating a lot of changes at once it's important to remember that nobody goes through life alone and this is why we exist in community. People can help us navigate changes, like someone dropping off a meal because you’re too busy packing and moving to worry about what to eat. One of the changes that we were going through was moving. I was hospitalized during the move, so my wife was managing the move alone. We had community, both in and out of state, who were helping. Friends out of state who were calling movers to get estimates, calling electricians to come give us a quote in our new place. There are ways that you can activate your community to help you navigate changes so you don't feel like it's all on your own shoulders. That’s when it gets overwhelming. What do you think, Becky?
Becky: I love that. I wanna point out the asking piece of it because I think for so many folks, especially I think for folks who have more intersecting, marginalized identities and I think particularly women are often condition this way (at least white women; I'll speak to my own experience) are very much conditioned to think that we are supposed to do it all and that asking for help is weakness. That if we can't do it there's something wrong with us and I think this is also really interesting it'll be interesting to talk about the Gen X and Millennial I don't know because for Gen X our parents were baby boomers and I think Elder Millennials maybe it is as well so we’ll see how much difference there is. But our moms were like the First Mom's to be of that “you can have it all” generation, right? They were the ones that went back to work, and were burning their bras, and all of this stuff like that first wave of feminism and that sort of has showed up for them I think often in trying to do too much trying to be “like the men” right saying I can do all the things that the masculine energy has been about and the feminine energy and I can do everything and of course that's just not true. No one can do it all. But I think many of us watching our moms do all of this sacrificing in the name of like independence and progress… we sort of internalize that message of like if if they did it all and sacrifice and and you know were tough and got it done, if we don't then we have failed them. Like what is wrong with us? But it’s like very often they weren’t honest with us. They didn't share…you know, they weren’t honest; I mean we were their kids and they were trying to protect us. Either way they weren’t telling us “I can't actually do it all; this is debilitating; this is slowly killing me; this is so hard.” We didn't know that and so we saw it as my mom's my hero; she's getting it all done and if I can't do the same thing then like I have failed because if she could I certainly can. And so I think that has left a lot of us to think like, in the name of that Independence and empowerment, we're supposed to be able to do everything and asking for help then like we really were conditioned to believe that was a failure it was bad. So having community is great but that community can only help when they know you need help. I am sure that when you wre in the hospital you guys were like, “Hey Taina’s now in the hospital we really could use some help” right? You have to ask for it.
Taina: Yeah, that's such a good point. I think about growing up and my mom working three jobs as a single mom but then also (Taina thinking aloud) we we tend to idolize or like fixate in our culture and I say we in general we fixate on like the “heroes journey” and so we only think of people as individuals; we don't see them in the context of their community and that is a function of capitalism. Capitalism has this web of intricacies and one of those strings is toxic individualism and so we buy into this idea that there's this hero's journey that there's this lone savior who does everything, right? When we think about MLK Junior we only think about MLK Junior, we don’t think about Coretta; we don't think about Bayard Rustin and we don't think about the students. We think about Rosa Parks but we don’t think abou the community that she was a part of; she was a part of the NAACP for years before the incident that made her famous. We are so socialized to think in terms of individuals and so as you were talking I was thinking “yeah I definitely might.. I mean I have a complicated relationship with my mom, but I definitely saw her as like this really hard working independent women working three jobs… but when I think about the context of that, my grandmother, my uncle's, my aunts, were there to care for us. So there is this like part of the community that we missed when we think only about the individual and what they're capable of doing. And when we think about movements like feminism right, yeah we think about individuals in that movement but everybody had a role. And so we think about Gloria Steinem, but we don't think about all the other woman; the organizers, the ones who were, you know, planning the logistics for the marches; the one who said hey we should burn our bras and got the word out to everyone else, you know? So there's so much more to the picture that we miss because we're so socialized to think in individual terms.
Becky: Yeah it makes me think of all of the Tony Robbins and Russell Brunson and whoever else of the world that are out there talking about their morning schedules without ever mentioning the fact that somebody's watching their kids while they do that morning schedule, right?
Taina: And cleaning their houses, and making their meals…
Becky: Yeah! The other side of that the other piece of that that makes me think of though because it makes me go back to my mom and we also have a complicated relationship; well it's a great relationship now. Mom, if you're listening, I love you and you did your best and you were great. What I did notice was my mom was not so much relying on community or asking for help but really cuz she was maybe didn't have that support or wasn't able to ask for that support. So I saw a lot of suffering and that makes me think of the other piece I want to talk about which is I think part of this. What I hear is what are the strategies you have for navigating multiple changes happening at all once? I hear a belief, whether it's a truth or just a belief, that these things are all happening at once and I can't prioritize; I can't set some things aside; I can't delegate. Like, they all are on me and I have to do it and if that is true like I think part of that is examining how much of that is true versus a belief that you're holding that you have to do them all and they all have to happen at once. Let's say there is truth to that: for some reason they are all things that fall on you, they are all happening simultaneously, and there's nobody to prioritize it. The piece of my mom's story that this makes me think of is self care and how are you going to care for yourself, then, if that's true? Like I think everything else we shared before– go there first please. Can you prioritize? Can you delegate? Can you get help? Because trying to do multiple big changes happening at one time taking it all on yourself is a recipe for disaster and for Burnout. And if you're going to then you have to figure out how do you care for yourself in that time if you're going through any peak change or multiple changes where there's a lot of stress and pressure on you the answer is not push through and rest when i’m dead. No, because this is this is going to get you there a lot sooner! We have to think about how you going to care for yourself. How can you find time for that? What can that look like; how can you integrate it throughout your day in small doses? If you don't care for yourself you will really be in trouble.
Taina: Yeah. One hundred percent.
Becky: Okay good all right I love that because again I think what we're going to discover as we go through this process of doing these over the months everything is so layered. Like some questions seem so simple and also underneath them there's usually so much more. That's what coaching, by the way, for those listening or watching or reading, that's what coaching can help you do: is get past that thing that your brain is tricking you into believe to help you start to explore what are the layers of this onion? What's below there? What this really what's this about?
Taina: Yeah, because you get to the root of what the issue is and what you thought was the issue now, all of a sudden, it's it's not existent. It doesn't even matter because you're dealing with the actual problem; with the actual like question that's lingering inside of you that you haven't grappled with.
Becky: Our last question is actually someone who said we can use their name which is awesome. Which is Krishna Kayastha (I hope that's how you say your last name, Krishna; I've never actually asked you so I apologize if that's not the case). She's with Serenade My Soul which is serenade my soul.com and she's amazing; I love Krishna and she has a really great question! Taina, do you wanna take it?
Taina: How do you balance the inner work of dismantling all the garbage (racism, body image, patriarchy, capitalism, etc) and talk or share about that in your work? I see many who talk about feminism, but it’s a lot of first wave stuff. I’d love to learn more about the intersectionality of it and how coaches can effectively fold it into their business messaging without taking away time or resources from their main thing.
Becky: I mean, again, so here we go into layers but the first thing that comes to me is a couple of questions; that's the coaching hat, right? One is what's making you feel like you need to share about it in your work and or that you can't share about it in your work? Because part of it is, I mean, you know the way I show up in the world, my immediate instinct, if I'm in my advice giving role is of course, hell ya! Of course you should talk all about it and everyone should hear it but I do think there's also a place to ask yourself is this my lane? Is it my place to share about this? Is it important? Do I feel that it's important for me to share about it? Because that's where coaching and coaches have to be very careful when we are not watching are we coaching here or are we advising because again my immediate reaction would be fuck yeah everybody should be talking about this stuff, right? But also the coaching hat in me says, what makes you feel like you want to? Because maybe there isn't a reason, right? Maybe you aren't yet feeling truly compelled to do it; maybe you feel like you're supposed to and if we're operating out of a “should” that's something to investigate, right? Because that doesn't feel like it's seated in your own soul; it's like someone has told you you're supposed to be but maybe you're not yet comfortable because you haven't done enough of the work yet. You're not really sure that it's even something that your audience cares about; maybe your work isn't the place to talk about it but it's more inside of your friendships; that’s also okay, right? I think sometimes when we're really passionate about something we can start to think like well if I'm not talking about this I'm failing the movement or something.
Taina: Yeah, yeah.
Becky: That's not true; it's not for everyone, right? So you know my immediate reaction is “how do I balance it?” I I talk about it nonstop (Becky laughs).
Taina: (Taina laughs).
Becky: It's like my everything, right? But also I have to recognize that’s not for everyone so I think asking yourself what what's making me feel like this is something I want to share about? Cuz what I think I’m hearing with that balances I'm still actively in the work process…
Taina: Yeah!
Becky: So how do I balance continuing to do the work while talking about it and that will depend on you. Like for me, I have always shared what I've already kind of resolved but I try not to get too into the weeds of talking about the things that I'm still actively learning. So for me my growth edge right now… a big growth edge for me is around ability or on disability around neurodivergence. These kinds of issues I just have not done a great depth of work. I want to, right, but that's an area where I know I still have a lot of learning to do so it's not an area I tend to talk a lot about because I don't want to share in an area where I don't really know enough yet and I could be causing harm where I haven't yet done the work. So I think that's a piece of it but I'm talking a lot and I want to hear what you have to say. (Becky laughs)
Taina: (Taina laughs) Well I agree with everything you said, you know. I think you have to consider… when you're talking about content, or you know, your audience, or, you know, potential clients, etc, who are you trying to reac, right? And if you're still on your own learning journey… like if you have a growth edge… you said your growth edge is ability, my growth edge is trans issues. I have not educated myself well enough on trans issues yet - yet - to confidently speak about that in a public way. But those are private conversations that I can have with people in my community, with friends, with people that I know who are trans who don't have to, but because of the relationship that we have, might be willing to to educate me on some things. The other thing that I will say is, I kind of see this as like a values thing, right? Like the more you do educate yourself on things and the more that you do your own inner work of dismantling that may or may not shift your values and that's going to come across privately and publicly whether you are like specifically making content to talk about these things. And so, you know, my values some of my values are equity and liberation and justice and emergence… you know things like that. So both in private and public ways that shows up in how I show up in the world and it's not something that I can turn off; it's not something that I can turn on it just it's a part of who I am. As you continue to do your own inner work it's not a matter of “how do you [balance]” it's a matter of when does that show up, right? Like when and where does that show up and so I think focus on just doing your own inner work and getting super clear on your value system. And don't worry about what other people are doing and don't worry about how to talk about it because it'll just… it'll eventually just make its way into both your private and public life.
Becky: I love that because I see this you know that second part of that question about how can you effectively fold it into your business message without taking away from the main thing and I think if it still feels like an either or then it isn't yet so fully integrated in you that it just shows up in how you talk about things, right? Like you're still sort of figuring out like how do I balance these things. I agree: for me, it doesn't I don't even think about it because… liberation is one of my core values so everything I talk about is always going to be through that lens and there's no way… I can’t parse those things out, right? I can’t separate them so like I’m never sort of figuring out how to do this dance between the two things, it is just the lens I see the world through and whatever I talk about will be tinted by that lens. And if you’re not there, that’s okay. I think a big piece of this too is to do some of that inner work to say I may be passionate about something and it’s not a part of my lens. Now, I am passionate about animals. I would adopt all the animals if I could; “adopt don’t shop” is what I care deeply about. But those things are not necessarily part of my core values. Like they matter a lot to me and I'm passionate about that and it comes up in conversation sometimes and, you know, I will talk about it from every once in awhile, but it is definitely not to the degree of a core value for me. There are other people for who it is, but, because of that, like, I'm not thinking about that as I'm writing my business messaging. It's not being woven into my messaging;
Taina: Yes.
Becky: it's not showing up. Like, I'm not choosing a lot of animals for motifs for my brand messaging; I'm not like integrating adop, don't stop language into my website stuff. Not because I don't care, but because it's just not a core value and so it just doesn't show up that way. So you can care deeply about these things and it's also okay if it's not a core value for your work and I think we have to give ourselves permission to say that's okay. And I know it can be hard when you start to surround or be inside of a space (and I know Krishna is because we're in community together). So when you are in community with other business owners who care deeply about equity and social justice in these things you can start to feel a bit of that like guilt around am I not doing it as well? And do I not care as much about whatever it is if I'm not like out front with it in my business? And I just want to give you that piece to know like that does not mean you're not doing the work and that you don't care; just might mean it's not a core value or it's not a core value for your business and those are okay and you can have separate values for yourself and your business episode and that’s also okay. Catherine Montgomery in her Better Together podcast episode of Feminist Founders which just came out, talked about how you don’t have to speak to everything. When we are people who are passionate about things and empaths and care [a lot], we start to feel like “I have to speak out on everything” and that can take over your life. Like, think about your social media: every day there's some incident happening in the world that can pull at some string of something we care about and then you can start to find like people saying why didn't you talk about that? You must not care; you don't talk about that. And that can be weird doing some of that work to identify what are your core values what does that look like for the sorts of things you talk about and maybe the things that you don't. Doesn't mean you don't care about them, maybe they just aren't part of your business core values. So like maybe you do speak to liberation in palestine but you don't speak to, you know, reproductive rights access; and not because you don't care about reproductive rights, yeah? But maybe it just doesn't fit with the core values for your business, right? Sometimes we have to make some of those difficult choices because, otherwise, it will consume you.
Taina: Yeah, yeah. One thing I want to add to that - or two things really - you know, going back to that idea that everyone has their own role, right? And maybe your role is not to just be so out there with everything, right? Like, understand again what your values are and how you show up in the world and then lean into that. And then the other thing, you know, when we're talking about intersectionality - which intersectionality… like I have a degree in women's gender and sexuality studies and so I see people misuse this word a lot and so it's one of my pet peeves when people use this in the wrong context or in the wrong way. And so I just want to encourage those who are listening, watching, reading… Krishna… you know for your question… First of all thank you for asking this question because I think it's it's an important question that a lot of us usually grapple with in our own journeys to understanding feminism and how that can play a role in our lives, but we tend to think of issue as siloed, right? So it becomes this binary or this like either or have to pick and choose and the whole concept of intersectionality is that there are no silos; everything is interconnected! So if you're speaking up about justice for palestine but you are a little bit more quiet about reproductive justice, right, it's not that you're picking one over the other because those things are interconnected, right? If you are speaking up about, you know, the economy but maybe you don't speak up too much about climate change– hello– those things are interconnected as well. Audre Lorde said we do not live single issue lives; there are no single issue oppressions because we do not live single issue lives. I just wanna encourage you that this isn’t a pick and choose thing; it's what is your role how does that align with your values and how you want to show up in the world and then lean into that and that is your responsibility. Anything beyond that is not your responsibility to do because there are other people doing plenty of work out there.
Becky: Yeah I love that. None of us can do it all; we just can't. Jordan Maney is amazing cuz she works with bleeding heart liberals (I think it’s what she calls them) or bleeding heart entrepreneur or something like that around rest. Because what’s happening for so many people who care deeply is when you care deeply you care about a lot of things and you care about them all a lot. And it can start to feel overwhelming because it starts to feel like this is all I want to talk about or it's all I have capacity to talk about if I talk about all of these things. And that is where I see that part about the main thing - the business - that can suffer because you're so… I don't want to say distracted because these aren't distractions but you’re so pulled in to all these things because you care about them but when we do that there’s no room tot alk about, “hey, here the magic I’m making in the world. And so I think when you think about where do these things overlap directly with the magic you’re making in the world, bring them in and talk about them. And when they're not that doesn't mean you don't talk about them or care about them, but maybe they aren't part of your business messaging, right, because they can begin to dilute in some ways. If you're like over here talking about like Palestine but you're making like I don't know t-shirts about like reproductive rights, like, again, I see the intersection so I'm trying to I'm trying to think of some examples that are a little more clear-cut but where you are starting to like talk about everything and then people lose sight of the thing that you're actually selling right and so if you're selling only things about reproductive rights while you may care deeply about all of the other things people may start to get confused [and think] “wait, what is it you sell again?” if you're talking about all the other stuff. You're talking about the economy, you're talking about you know wars, you're talking about… well all of those things may actually overlap and be important it could begin to dilute from what you're actually doing so I think what's the magic you're making in the world how these issues relate to that and that's a place to think about it. But this is a complicated one!
Taina: It was; it was. It's good and, you know, it's important to remember the learning journey is not something you arrive at. You're not like “oh, I learned everything I need to know so I'm good.” Like it's a constant evolution and so this is the work; this is the work of those of us who believe and aspire to live by, you know, intersectional feminist principles. It's a constant self-reflection and evaluation and and just… yeah. It's constant.
Becky: And we don't have all the answers!
Taina: Yes!
Becky: I mean that's yes we're coaches and I think too often what you see in the world are coaches who are trying to actually just be gurus and consultants and advice givers and while we're giving some advice here that's why I think it's also nice where we can integrate like truly inside of a coaching container most of what I think you and I just said to this wouldn't have even been something we said.
Taina: Yeah.
Becky: We would be asking you questions! I would be asking you what really matters most to you. What do you feel like you want to talk about in your work? With hese issues where is that overlap for you of what matters to you and your work? what kinds of questions do you think you would ask? This would be a nice place to finish.
Taina: I would when was the last time you clarified your values, right? How do you see feminism aligning with your values? How do you see it not aligning with your values why do you think that is? How does your work embody feminism? How does it not embody feminism? Why? It’s really about getting very introspective about where those gaps are and whether or not you feel you need to fill them.
Becky: Yeah. When have you talked about these sorts of things and it felt good? When have you talked about these sorts of things and it didn’t feel good? I just wanna throw in a few questions for you, Krishna, or for anyone listening, because that's what self coaching is; it looks like that. It looks like trying to step outside of whatever your brain is trying to convince you of in that moment; the story it’s telling you and to really try to examine that story from all the angles. Like how can I take this out of my head, hold the idea, and look at it all the way around, right? And that happens through asking yourself just as many what - I love “what” questions most importantly; like “what” kinds of questions or “how.” Just don't ask “why” questions if you can avoid it because it makes you feel defensive. (Becky laughs)
Taina: (Taina laughs)
Becky: That was probably the biggest lesson I learned in coaching. Anyway, this was great! I love this idea; thank you for coming up with the idea.
Taina: Yeah! I’m excited. This was great, I agree. And I’m excited to get into some more of the questions next time.