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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm your host, Derek Hudson. Today on the Essential Dynamics podcast, I'm really excited to welcome back Christian Hansen. Christian, welcome.
Christian:Thank you so much, Derek. It's an honor to be here.
Derek:As we like to say on the podcast, we learn about the way things work through deep conversations with interesting people. So thanks for the last conversation. I want to pick it up and there's a bunch of questions I have, but first of all, maybe I'll just ask if you could recap what the influence mindset means to someone who's, I guess, trying to get noticed.
Derek:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We we need to understand that success is not based on showing how well you can perform because everybody else can do that. Success is really based on do you influence somebody to choose you or your idea over others? And in order to do that, we need to understand that there are certain things working against us and we have been trained in environments that have nudged us towards showing how smart, capable, qualified and passionate we are.
Christian:But when we do that, we're not speaking to the brain needs of the person that we're truly trying to influence. So how can we step out of our own frame of mind and focus on how do I truly serve and speak to what this other person deeply wants and the ability to shape your words and behaviors in such a way is what ultimately is the influence mindset because people build their perceptions of you based off of your words and behaviors and we need to be able to shift and adjust them. But if you keep doing what you've been trained to do and what you've always done, then you can expect for the same results. To change that, that's what I call the influence mindset.
Derek:Okay, that's a great summary. Now, when I think of what you've just said, one approach would be okay to not take it to the end of the line in terms of all the stuff you put together and to say, okay, I'm not here to sell myself, I'm here to connect with this other person. And so you immediately go into like the emotional intelligence kinds of things and now I need to understand this person's backstory and I need to put myself into the challenges that they've had, which is not that easy to do in many business situations. You don't have the time or the information to do that. So maybe you could just reiterate, what are you talking about when you say you're trying to make it easy for the person that you're working with to, accept you and your ideas?
Derek:So empathy may be part of it, but there's there's that's not it. Not all of it.
Christian:I found that there are seven levers of perception that I think you can pull and nudge in your favor to adjust your language. And one of the most important and I think powerful ones is having to do with the of trying to intentionally make the other person become the hero of their own story, right? So if I'm talking with somebody and you know, and I'm trying to connect with them and share kind of why my ideas are important. How can I take a moment to help them feel like they're the hero of their own story? So I could pause in the middle of something that they say and just be like, wow, hang on.
Christian:Do you do you realize how powerful what that is you just said? Right? Most people in your situation would kind of overlook that but I'm so impressed that you would see that and I think your instincts are right about that or I think you're a lot closer than you think or boy, here's what I really admire about what you just said. Those subtle things is the intention behind them is to help the other person feel closer to the destination that they're trying to get to. And if I can help them associate me as someone who is helping them feel closer, feel like they're climbing the mountain and it's not as high as it used to be, then I'm on my way.
Christian:There's a study by the University of Virginia where they had a student by themselves stand and look at the mountain at a mountain in front of them, And they said how tall do you think that mountain is? And so the students would, you know, give elevation estimates. However, they then did a study where they had a student and one of their friends standing next to each other and they said how tall do you think that mountain is? And when students had someone that was standing next to them, they trusted and they felt like they were friends, consistently the estimation of how tall those mountains were decreased significantly. So as someone is if you're trying to get to where you're wanting to go, if I paint myself as the hero and I'm just saying, yeah, I can totally charge up the mountain, you're gonna be like, well that that's not really helping me get up the mountain.
Christian:But if I can position myself as someone who's standing right next to you and is trying to help you truly get there, all of a sudden, not only does that obstacle that you're trying to overcome seem a lot smaller, but I'm the person that's helped facilitate that. How can we do that more consistently in their language? And that's something that I work with teams and organizations on.
Derek:So I read The Influence Mindset, not the recent book which is directed at sales. I read the initial one. Yeah. And I really liked the example of the college admissions because it's just so like defined.
Christian:Yes. It's a really interesting microcosm of this dance of influence.
Derek:And I love the example in the book and I've been there when I've been interviewing candidates. It's you come from a small town and you're at the top of the heap of the small town and now you're in the big city and you're stacked up against people who have at least the paper qualifications that you have and they might actually be worth more. And so how you stand out? So think that's a fantastic sort of reduced experiment. You reduce the number of variables and it's there's a there's a application, you know, a test score and then maybe an interview.
Derek:And that's the whole that's the whole cycle and you and you're trying to stand out. I'm really interested though in taking these ideas into a much more complex world, the world that I'm trying to simplify with essential dynamics. And so maybe look at it a couple different directions. But what I'm thinking of is my job since I was a young consultant at a big accounting firm has been to get people to accept new ideas. So as a young consultant, the client would pose a problem, I'd go do some research, do a bunch of interviews, come back with some insight.
Derek:They usually thanked us for the report, didn't do anything different. Yeah. Then I progressed and I was an executive, so I reported to a CEO and then to a board. And we're trying to make some changes in the organization that we believe are necessary and we're presenting these ideas. And there's lots of reasons not to accept a new idea and so we deal with that.
Derek:And now as a guide in Unconstrained, I'm both trying to help leaders in organizations see how I could help them in terms of engaging us. And then once we start working with them, again, it's trying to accept new ideas. And so how can we use the influence mindset, complex organizations with maybe multiple decision makers to let the right ideas prevail, put it that way?
Christian:Absolutely. And that's a big challenge. So there's there's kind of two stages I think that are really important to take into consideration. First is trying to agree on the the new normal, right? What is the core issue that we're really trying to solve? Number one. But then also number two, how do you create buy in or at least remove the obstacles that are in the way from creating buy in? And one of the strategies that I find to be most effective when it comes to communicating and trying to establish a new normal is using what I call negativity bias to our advantage, okay? When you drive by on the freeway and you see an accident on the opposite side, right, it's not gonna impact you but what happens as you drive by? What do you do? Right?
Derek:Everybody slows down, takes a look.
Christian:They slow down and take a look. Okay? Because again, our brains are wired to help us survive. Right? And we pay attention to when bad things happen to other people.
Christian:And so when we illustrate again things that people may be overlooking or hidden threats that people may not have considered, I think that's a two for one punch of helping reset the new normal, introduce a new different facet of risk that may be you know potentially there and then also it's helping position you as a guide and someone who can see and facilitate people through this, right? And so some phrases that I consistently use again is instead of saying well look you know, I've helped this many teams go through this problem and you have this problem but rather if I shift it to you know, when you've helped this many people, you know, as long as I have, one of the consistent things that people tend to overlook is and here's what happens when people overlook this or here's one of the things that most teams fail to recognize or here are things that one of the hidden pitfalls that most people don't realize is there until it's too late, right? So if I'm able to position this in terms of, look, this isn't your fault, you know, most people overlook this and it's totally not their fault, right?
Christian:I mean, how could they notice? They've never, you know, seen this before and and most of the things that people are unwillingly carrying that's making things a lot more difficult than they have to be in this process tends to be, right? Each of these phrases that I'm using are intention to trigger the negativity bias that another person has, right, and make them pay more attention to potential threats that their brain is wired to always be on the lookout for, right? And it positions me as someone who is trying to in a very neutral way guide them through the process so that they can trust me. So first I'm alerting them to looking at the world in a new way.
Christian:They're having a potential paradigm shift which has neuro rewards, right? It makes them pay more attention to me. But then number three, they feel more confident that I'm helping them see things that they hadn't seen before. That's that's stage one. Then stage two though is creating buy in and one of the ways I think it's really important to do this is noticing what is the story the team or the person in front of you likes to tell about themselves.
Christian:I, my grandmother was one of the most remarkable communicators I've ever been blessed to know and she had a really weird way of saying things. Rarely did she ever say nice job or that looks great or thanks for bringing that. She would consistently say things like, well, how thoughtful of you? How considerate of you? Well, how diligent of you?
Christian:She did not compliment the behaviors of things that we did. Rather she intentionally complimented the attributes from which behaviors came. So if you're in a situation and someone were to consistently tell you, boy, how thoughtful of you to say that? I really admire how considerate you are. You know, I'm really impressed you noticed that and that just tells me, you know, how, you know, insightful you are at perceiving these things.
Christian:Can you sense a noticeable difference that would have on you and kind of remove some barriers? Because essentially people rise or fall to the level of story you give them to tell about themselves. And if you can consistently give people the story or in a compliment to live up to, that's one of the ways that you can increase buy in and also reduce, you know, the the the friction that people may have as they're trying as you're trying to present ideas. So first, how do I use negativity bias in communicating potential pitfalls and things that they they might consistently overlook or people in their similar position have overlooked, right? That helps them agree to the premise of the idea that I'm establishing and then to create buy in.
Christian:I intentionally - one of the brain hacks I use is how can I validate the story this person or this team likes to tell about themselves?
Derek:Do you have a way to challenge the story in, for example, in the context of the pitfalls that they're not seeing?
Christian:You know, the narrative that a lot of times they have has a lot of social capital built in to preserving that narrative and I find that the one of the most effective ways is first of all to not be judgmental as we're in these situations, but to ask questions with genuine curiosity, right? Look, there's something that I call an asymmetry of information. As I'm walking into a situation, you know way more about your lived experience than I do and I know way more about the potential solutions than you do. Now the thing is though is that for us to both feel good about moving forward, we must overcome this asymmetry of information and reach to a symmetry of understanding. And the only way that I know how to do that is by a delicate, you know, dance of questions that help, you know, raise your level of understanding of what I offer and helps raise my level of understanding of what you've been experiencing.
Christian:Now a lot of times we ask questions to help make me feel great, right? And I call them fastball questions. Why did you do that? How come you're taking that approach? You know, and that gives me a lot of the power.
Christian:But what if I intentionally ask you what I call T-ball questions which are designed to give you the the generosity of the moment and to create a runway for you to talk, then that and I'm gonna do this in a spirit of genuine curiosity, then that is gonna allow you to comfortably without any friction, without any judgment, without any charge, share the information so that I can get up to speed. Now if I walk in though and I'm asking fastball questions, right, and I'm you know taking charge and I'm making you feel less than, then I'm in no position to challenge or insert a different narrative that's gonna help you do that. But I mean have you ever encountered someone who with genuine, without guile, right, and with genuine curiosity said, so help me understand how that works a little bit better, right? That just reduces the the walls you may naturally have built up around preserving that story. So that's one of the ways you can navigate that.
Derek:I really like that. I tend to be very rational. I try hard not to be judgmental, but, you know, it creeps in when stuff doesn't add up. Yeah. And so I've, I mean, I think I've trained myself.
Derek:I don't understand. What I see doesn't add up. I don't understand. Tell me more and help me understand why, you know, this was set up the way it was. Yeah.
Derek:And typically what I will get is at some point people open up and they tell me what is and then what the barrier is to what they really want.
Christian:Hmm
Derek:so I'll just put this back. I have no idea where this will go but I've had those conversations to the point where the question that I need to ask after all of that is something like, well then why do you put up with it? That's where we get to kind of the crux which is I put up with it because the hard thing that I would have to do to get through that, in my mind, is too hard, but it's hard not to do it as well. So now I'm stuck. And that but that's a that's if you're if you're in the right mindset and context, that's a position where things open up.
Christian:Absolutely. I think why questions are really interesting because they age better with time. What I mean by that is at the beginning of an interaction, I think a why based question is extremely intrusive and power grabbing. You know, why do you do that, right? At the beginning of an interaction, that's very inappropriate.
Christian:But it ages better with time because as you build better trust then there are moments when it's I think appropriate to ask why questions. So why are you willing to put up with that or why do you still put up with that? One of the most effective questions that I have found in these situations is asking, so what's the biggest obstacle you're facing right now? And there's several points to that question that's very intentionally crafted. What, That's a very objective thing.
Christian:What is the biggest? Right? I'm inviting them to summarize what's the biggest thing, right? Obstacle, not challenge, not hill, not thing, know, it's just obstacle, it's a pretty neutral word in English. What's the biggest obstacle you're facing right now?
Christian:Not struggling with, not overcoming, not overlooking, but that you're facing. I guess it's a pretty neutral way and then right now is inviting them just to consider this moment. And so if I'm in the moment where I'm trying to win someone over and and just help feel like so that they know I'm on their side of the table. When I ask them, so what's the biggest obstacle you're facing right now? That is a neutral invitation for them to truly open up from their perspective and then my job is to try and then validate them so that they can say I agree, yeah, that is a big problem that you're facing.
Christian:Know, would you be open to kind of exploring a little bit more about that so I can better understand? Or would you be open to letting me try and raise your game a little bit here? Things like that. So I'm trying to be very delicate as I navigate this exchange of information to go from the asymmetry of information to a symmetry of understanding.
Derek:Thanks very much. So Christian, in Essential Dynamics, as it's developed, I've come up with the idea that in an organization's purpose is to produce the result that's intended, achieve the purpose, but not just once, to be able to do that continuously. So I talk about trying to achieve system flow. And so then we talk about systems and flow a lot and I've determined that I think there are four different flows in an organization. I have an accounting background and the first flow is value flow.
Derek:That's the rate at which you're accomplishing your purpose. And for most organizations, an income statement shows that the income statements are done by period and it's like how much value did we add per period. So that's a value flow perspective. Second one that accountants should look at more than they do is resource flow or cash flow. So what did it take?
Derek:How long did it take for us to get paid so that we can invest in this cycle again and carry on and you can very much have positive value flow and negative cash flow.
Christian:Yeah. It's true.
Derek:You can pitch investors really well and get lots of cash flow and never produce value flow.
Christian:This is yep. You're so right.
Derek:Also true. But next two are information flow and energy flow. And when I think about information flow, first think of the idea of you have a value process that starts from inputs and goes to outputs, And then you have information flow that typically kind of goes the other direction and gives every station feedback on how they did in their steps to produce the value. And there's a lot of stuff in Lean about that kind of flow. And then the last flow is energy flow, which is what the people are able to get from and bring to the various operations in a company and what you know, how they're motivated.
Derek:So I think our conversation over these past two episodes has really been about information flow, but it's in a different way. Like when we talk about information flow, companies, you know, they'll say, well, I have my KPIs, I have a dashboard, I'm getting this sterilized information, probably not in context, probably not fast enough to make a difference anyway. And what you're telling me is, well, let's think about the objective that we're trying to accomplish. Who's there controlling the gates about how those things are going to happen? And then how do we give them information that's useful to them in making what we believe is a good decision, whether that's based on selecting a candidate or a product or on understanding an idea?
Derek:And we have all kinds of what we call drivers and constraints in the information flow. And a huge constraint in the information flow is what we're as individuals prepared to pay attention to or accept. Yeah. And we have these blocks around the things that are in our own interest compared to what's in someone else's interest. So what I think you've done is given us a very, very human, very empathetic way of understanding some of the ways that we can make information flow work so that we can get to better decisions.
Derek:Is that a fair way to put what you're doing?
Christian:I would I would say so and, you know, we what's interesting is that we clothe ourselves in the story of the organization that we're part of. Right? If I if I join, you know, working with a company, I'm clothing myself in the narrative of that and that's going to influence how I interact in that culture. Right? If I choose a product, I'm clothing myself a little bit in the story of that product.
Christian:And so I think one of the most important things is being very clear, what is the story that you are telling? And more importantly, you know, I tell people I think the value of your personal brand is the ability of other people to tell it when you're not in the room. And I know for me that if so much of my business has come through referrals and people sharing that and so if I know that that is the most likely point in time where someone's gonna be interested in reaching out to me is when someone has just told my story. How can I be clear now and consistent in telling my story upfront so that someone can go and you know deliver that value when I'm not in the room? One of the ways I think leaders can do this or any salesperson can do this is by asking the question, again, I close every one of my coaching sessions or when I'm speaking with someone with this question that is, so what's been most helpful today?
Christian:What's been most helpful in our conversation today? And I'm inviting them to relive and recount the things that have provided the most value for them so that when they walk out, they've already practiced telling what was most valuable and now they can go and share it with others. So as leaders are and people are trying to talk about this information flow and get out of their own way and everything, we the the larger thing is yes, we have in the value flow and the cash flow and the inflow, right, the information flow and the energy flow, but you know, one of the larger ecosystems of when humans work together is that it is extremely narrative driven and what do you want that narrative to be? And what do you want that narrative to be about you? Because those things, the the story that people tell about you is gonna be the thing that is going to impact, you know, again, the value flow, the cash flow in all these different ways.
Christian:So which is again one of the things I work a lot with companies on is case what you know, what's your core story? Leaders. What is the core story that you're telling that you want your employees to to also share and close themselves in? Because we are a storytelling group of people. We're storytelling species, right?
Christian:And the ability to have a clear story, I think that speaks to the larger issue of not just people but the purpose of what they're trying of what we're trying to do. And when you have a good clear story that's well communicated and there's not a lot of stuff getting in the way, then I think that's one of those ties that raises all the boats of the four different flows that you've just mentioned.
Derek:Well, Christian, thanks for that summary and analysis. And if I pull that together, genesis, which is a story, the genesis of Essential Dynamics was if we thought about challenges that we face as we work together as people in the context of the epic quest, how could we then understand what we're doing? And quest I know there's the hero's journey with lots of steps but ultimately the quest is all about a band of misfits going on a journey to right some wrong in the world. Absolutely. And that is people, path and purpose.
Derek:And sometimes, I mean, I've worked with clients, you've seen it, where in 25 pages, they can't tell you those things. Yeah. And so if we can get clear on that, and we have ways of then sharing those stories and making them better and relating to them, we're all gonna be better off.
Christian:Yeah. A mentor of mine who I really look up to is a very gifted speaker. He challenged me, he said in one word, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? And in one word, what is the solution that you provide? And for me, it's people are indistinguishable from each other in in the way we present and the way that the thing that I help people do is become unforgettable.
Christian:And you become unforgettable not by proving how remarkable you are, but first by establishing and creating relatability. And then relatability is how you can achieve remarkability and ultimately that's how you become unforgettable.
Derek:We have to end there. Thank you so much Christian for taking the time with us today. That was was great. Christian, just remind us where people can find you.
Christian:Absolutely. My website is the christianhansen.com. I'm on LinkedIn if you look for Christian Hansen and then influence, that's usually the easiest way to find me on LinkedIn and also my books are available on Amazon. I just came out with the Audible version of my second book a couple weeks ago for the Influence Mindset for Sales Acceleration. I narrated it myself so you get all the benefits or challenges of an author narrating his own stuff.
Christian:But yeah, absolute pleasure to be here and so grateful for the opportunity to speak with you and your audience.
Derek:Well, thanks so much, Christian. We'll make sure that our show notes have those links and I'm grateful that we were able to end our conversation about stories. So because that's what that's what we love talking about here on Essential Dynamics. And You can find me at getunconstrained.com. But let's never forget, consider your quest.