Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Why good communication requires presence, not performance.

Effective communication isn't about perfecting your performance. According to Dr. Kate Mason, it's about being powerfully present.
Mason is a world champion debater, executive communication coach, and author of the book Powerfully Likeable. In her work coaching senior executives to communicate more effectively, she emphasizes that it’s not about creating a performative persona, it’s about uncovering the authentic communicator you already are. “The coaching is just bringing the real parts of you to the fore,” she says, “uncovering rather than totally building from scratch. A lot of people come to me and say, I need to be more warm or more insert adjective here. And I say, I'm not gonna help you be more warm if that's not what's coming naturally to you. I am gonna help you work out the thing you're already doing, the thing you're already saying, how to make that comfortable for people around you.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Mason and host Matt Abrahams discuss strategies for more present communication. From avoiding "imposing syndrome” to reducing “the delta between your real self and that corporate persona,” Mason's insights explore how we can bring more of our true selves to the table.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:32) - Why Confidence Is the Wrong Goal
  • (03:55) - Bridging Your Real and Work Selves
  • (05:27) - What Is Imposing Syndrome?
  • (07:01) - Catching Yourself Shrinking
  • (08:58) - Rethinking Imposter Syndrome
  • (10:15) - Assertive vs. Agreeable
  • (12:40) - Naming Your Communication Style
  • (15:38) - What You Say vs. How You Show Up
  • (17:43) - Body Language That Signals Openness
  • (19:04) - Executive Messaging Lessons
  • (22:01) - The Final Three Questions
  • (26:51) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Dr. Kate Mason
World Champion Debater | Executive Communication Coach | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Effective communication
is about presence, not performance.

My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I'm really excited to speak
with my friend Dr. Kate Mason.

Kate is a world champion debater,
executive communication coach, and author.

She helps senior executives
navigate critical and challenging

communication situations along with
what she calls the tricky act of

communicating while female at work.

Her new book is called Powerfully Likable.

Well, welcome Kate.

I am excited to have you here in person.

I know the Bay Area used to be your
home, and now you live in Australia,

which is one of my favorite places.

Thanks for being here.

Kate Mason: Oh, I'm so
pleased to be here, Matt.

Thanks for having me.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

Shall we get started?

Kate Mason: Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

Confidence is a big theme
in your book and your work.

In fact, you have a chapter
called Kill Your Confidence.

You argue that confidence is
a supremely unhelpful concept.

As someone who has spent a lot of my life
helping people to feel more confident

in their communication, can you help us
understand your thoughts on confidence?

Kate Mason: I think we're aligned,
Matt, on wanting people to be confident,

but what I find is the interesting
part is when people tell someone else,

you've just gotta be more confident.

And there's a couple of reasons.

One, I think it's supremely
unactionable feedback.

It's the outcome, but not the process.

So it's a little bit like
telling someone just be healthier

or win a gold medal, right?

It sounds good in theory,
but like, how do I get there?

And the process is so different for all
of us, that it's not about following

a listicle or three steps to, it, it's
nuanced and it requires some thought.

So that's one of the reasons.

I think the more important reason is
that when we tell someone to be more

confident, we actually get them out of
their surroundings and into their head.

So we start self surveilling and
being very cognizant of every

movement, like was that confident?

Did I sound confident?

Am I looking confident?

And what I want people to do
is actually get out of their

head and into the meeting.

So am I being of service?

Am I connecting?

Am I listening?

And that actually ultimately looks
confident but we're not thinking

about it as the main driver.

Matt Abrahams: So it's not that we
don't want people confident, it's

we don't want people in their head
worried about being confident.

So can you share with us how you
help people to feel more confident,

and therefore, act more confidently?

Kate Mason: Yeah, so a lot of
it is, I think authenticity is

an overused word these days.

It's lost its meaning a little bit.

But my main philosophy is how do we
reduce the delta between your real

self and that corporate persona?

Because I think the bigger that delta
is, the more performative we are at

work especially, the harder it is to
communicate effectively and comfortably.

Because it's exhausting.

It's draining.

But if we can bring that closer
to actually who we are and work

out what are the things we already
have at our disposal, am I a good

rapport builder or a good listener?

That's where an excellent
communication can come from.

So that's my mission to
make that delta smaller.

Matt Abrahams: Sure, and
that makes a lot of sense.

It sounds to me like people could
take an inventory of what works

for them and then try to bring
that forward into the situation.

And I like what you said earlier, if
we approach it as, I am in service

of these people, or I'm here to add
value, that changes the dynamic.

It's not, I'm here to perform
and they are evaluating me.

So I like this idea of bringing your true
self where you have strengths and seeing

yourself as in service of or part of this,
and that takes that spotlight off of you.

Kate Mason: It really does,
and no one ever says, thanks so

much for that confident meeting.

They say, thanks so much for your ideas,
for the brainstorm, for listening.

So as much as we can invest in
those areas, that's actually where

the generative stuff happens.

Matt Abrahams: It's amazing how much we
can do by how we frame our circumstances,

especially around confidence.

And if we lean into our
strengths, we can go in feeling

more comfortable and confident.

So thank you for that.

In a related way, you spend
time discussing imposing

syndrome, not imposter syndrome.

What is imposing syndrome and how
does it show up in communication

and what can we do about it?

Kate Mason: Yeah, so imposing syndrome is
what I call a series of behaviors where

we are afraid to make an imposition on
someone else, and it usually shows up when

we are asking for time or for resources
or for someone's energy on something.

And we say things like, it'll just
take two seconds, or, I'm probably

not the expert, or I'm sure you've
already thought about this, right?

We are so reluctant to cause a fuss or
to ruffle feathers that before we've even

actually got to the ask, kind of taken
our legs out from under us in doing so.

And what it actually does in practice
is it diminishes the ask itself.

I assume that me taking two
seconds of your time is not to

show you something very important.

And by extension it minimizes
ourselves that maybe we aren't

worthy of taking up your time.

And so one of the things I work
with, particularly folks I coach, is.

Let's think about what is pushing that
resistance when you're making the ask.

And let's think about, again,
reframing that ask in a way

that's just more comfortable.

Like, Matt, I'm gonna put thirty minutes
in with you next week to talk about X,

Y, Z. Let me know if that works for you.

It's the same ask, but it's
a very different mindset

with which we approach it.

Matt Abrahams: So what we do is we hedge
when we're afraid that we are going

to impose, and therefore we come at it
with less strength, less power, and we

devalue, potentially, in the eyes of the
person or people we want to meet with the

value of what it is we're talking about.

Are there ways that you coach people to
become aware of themselves doing this?

This, this to me, strikes me as just very
habitual, especially when you might be

new to an organization or focusing on
something that's a new topic to yourself.

How can we be alert to the
fact that we are actually a

victim of imposing syndrome?

Kate Mason: Yeah.

Part of it is listening.

When I'm with a client, I will notice and
reflect back, but part of it is also, you

spoke earlier about taking an inventory.

I really encourage that.

Where did you feel great today
in your communication, right?

Was there a meeting that you walked
out of and thought that went so well?

You know, it landed exactly as I wanted.

And were there other moments where
you felt reticence or resistance?

Take note of those too because they're
very instructive to tell us, I noticed,

you know, there was a power imbalance
in that room and I felt smaller

or more junior, and I found myself
shrinking or disclaiming or hedging.

That can just be a good first step.

Just mapping the terrain to then decide,
are those things serving me and maybe do

I wanna change them, experiment with them,
or maybe I wanna keep them as is as well.

Matt Abrahams: I am a huge fan and
advocate for reflection like that.

Many of us are just so glad to have
survived or gotten through whatever

that gauntlet of communication was,
that we don't turn around and reflect.

And I love what you said about not
just reflecting on what went well,

but look at what didn't go so well
and are there patterns and behaviors

that you're invoking, or perhaps
not, that you want to work on.

So it's not enough just
to complete the task.

It's valuable to go back.

I like to tell my students there's
that definition of insanity doing

the same thing over and over again,
expecting different results, and

that's how many of us communicate.

So I really like this idea of
reflecting on the activities

and the communication you have.

Thank you for that.

I do wanna know a little bit about
your thoughts on imposter syndrome

because many people I know, myself
included, certainly have moments

where I feel like I am an imposter
in this room or compared to others.

How do you see that play out
and what do you advise people

to do to manage some of that?

Kate Mason: My thoughts on
imposter syndrome are that all

of the wrong people have it.

I would love to have a global
redistribution system whereby everyone

who feels like they have it could just
mentally donate it to somebody else.

To my mind, the word imposter
always invokes some sort of

deception, and I always ask people,
do you feel that you are trying

to intentionally deceive anybody?

The answer is usually no.

Of course not.

I just feel like I'm new
or I'm inexperienced.

And so the answer is you might be new
or inexperienced, and that's okay.

In fact, that's entirely reasonable and
normal, and it's maybe not all on you.

Maybe the institution hasn't been
as welcoming and there's a lot of

great research out there around the
institutions needing to also shift to

accommodate folks to feel more welcome.

So I think when we, again, get into our
head about it, it's easy and seductive to

stay there and self-flagellate about it.

A nicer way to think about it is
if I am self-aware enough that

I am experiencing this feeling,
I'm probably doing a great job.

So maybe just put it down and
get to the work and you'll

start feeling a lot better.

Matt Abrahams: What a really cool tool.

If I am feeling like I don't fit or
I'm feeling like I'm an imposter,

the fact that you are having that
feeling probably signals that you're

not because you're self-aware.

And what I often will coach, and what
I try to remind myself, is that often

in these situations I was invited.

Or there was an expectation that
there was value that I would bring

and reminding myself of that helps
dampen down some of those feelings.

So thank you for that.

I really like this idea of redistributing
those who feel the imposter syndrome.

You write about the tension between
being agreeable and being assertive.

Can you define what those concepts are and
why they're tricky, especially for women.

Kate Mason: So as I came into
leadership myself, I always felt that

there were really only two options.

And I thought of them as, you could
be powerful, you know, high authority,

no friends, and you could be likable,
low authority, and lots of friends.

And I always thought that was
a really unfair binary, right?

It didn't seem accurate and it
also didn't seem particularly fair.

And I think that's exactly that
assertive versus agreeable tension a

lot of us, particularly women, feel
although some men feel too, which

is, how do I strike this balance?

That chasm feels really
difficult to navigate.

I think about those two things
as not ends of a binary, but of

as actual partners or neighbors.

So instead of feeling like there's
this one way choice or only one of

those doors to take, actually, it's
often in the counterintuitive couplings

of words or language that might feel
dissonant, but actually can be very

generative when we bring it together.

So I talk to people about what
interesting, counterintuitive things

might you identify with, and what
leadership style or communication

style can we bring out of that?

So I hear fantastic things like,
I'm competitively calm, right?

Or I'm ambitiously communal,
or I'm powerfully likable.

These interesting neighbors or friends
that actually often, particularly

women, who may not see their
communication style at top levels of

leadership can feel like, no, wait.

That's exactly who I am.

I'm ambitious because I want the
best, but I'm communal because

I want my whole team to succeed.

So I think part of this is about
giving ourselves and others language

to inhabit and be able to summon
that self in our communication.

Matt Abrahams: I like that you are
saying these are not binary, that there,

there's a way to blend them together.

I envisioned, as you were talking
about the yin yang symbol where

they feed into each other.

And I really like that activity
of thinking about different parts

of your personality and put them
together and really think about how

you show up in that duality, right?

In that tension.

And as you were speaking, I'm thinking I
am communally curious, you know, because

curiosity can often be very self-centered
or selfish, but I really believe that I am

communally curious and I love that idea.

So once somebody has identified
that, do you help them see the next

step of how do you embody that?

How do you be that?

Kate Mason: Yeah, so I have an exercise
in the book actually, which goes

through that, but yes, exactly right.

It's about thinking instead of
this performative professional self

that we sort of envisage, right?

High heels, briefcase, suit.

What are those words doing for us?

What do they activate in us?

Is it that I'm really good at relationship
building or very good at detecting how

to manage my team and seeing the feelings
in them, or whatever it might be.

We understand what that is,
and then I work on practices of

essentially working how could I
summon that person, if you like?

Which sounds a little woo woo, but
how do I bring them to the fore

when I'm gonna write an email?

What does an email from a
communally curious person look like?

And oftentimes that's the unlock
people need to be like, oh gosh, I

don't need to be sitting here worrying
about the number of exclamation points

or how many times I've said thank
you, or sorry, or all these things

that I think we get caught up on.

And more quickly go to that self-talking,
which is usually a much easier way to

foreground them or bring them into being.

So I find some of the coaching is
just like, let's work on bringing them

to the fore because if they're real
parts of you, they're there already.

I think of it as like an uncovering rather
than a totally building from scratch.

Matt Abrahams: I hear in that both
a recognition of what's there and

then giving yourself permission
to bring that part of you forward.

If you were to go to an AI tool and
say, write an email in the tone of

this, or with this approach, it would
do that, and what you're actually

saying is just do that with yourself.

Kate Mason: Be a better prompt
engineer of your own self.

Matt Abrahams: And while you know
I say that with tongue in cheek,

I think there's power in that.

It really invites us to pull
forward who we are and to worry

less about who we think others
want us to be, or we should be.

Kate Mason: Yes.

That's really key, especially I think
in corporate or work contexts where

there's enough surveillance and self
surveillance going on without us

always bringing that attention there.

So it counters that quite nicely.

I think you're exactly right.

Matt Abrahams: And what I've found in my
own life is when you do bring out that

true part of your personality and you
communicate in that way, others feel more

comfortable bringing out their own, and
all of a sudden you have this authenticity

party that you might not always get.

And so it can help you, but
it might also help your group,

your team, your organization.

I really like that idea of
combining disparate parts, so

thank you for sharing that.

As you well know, and you and I have
talked about this often in our other types

of communication, that communication isn't
just about what we say, but how we say it.

In fact, sometimes our non-verbal
presence, what you do with your

body and your voice, is more
important than what you say.

What advice and guidance do you
have around how we say what we

say that can help us feel more
confident, more powerful, more

belonging in our environments?

Kate Mason: It's such
a beautiful question.

I have a lot of people who come to me and
say, I need to be more warm, or I need to

be more insert your new adjective here.

And I say, I'm not gonna help
you be more warm if that's not

what's coming naturally to you.

What I am gonna help you is work
out the thing you're already doing,

the thing you're already saying,
so let's work out how to make that

comfortable for people around you.

So a good example maybe to
help illustrate, I work with a

woman who, she would call her
language pretty transactional.

She goes into kind of an
abrupt action mode, right?

She's very incisive.

She goes straight to the point.

And she came to me saying, I really
need to be more warm because I've

had this feedback that I'm not
friendly or I'm not approachable.

I thought the last thing I wanna do is
make this woman step outside and be very

performative when it just wasn't in her
natural vibe from having met with her.

And so I said, a tool here you
could use, which I think a lot

of people could use in different
situations, is to just call it out.

So she could say something like, if she
was here, Matt, I tend to go straight to

action mode and just get into the details.

Forgive me if that feels blunt,
but I really want us to get into

this and get you to a good place.

Suddenly, she's given both self permission
to do what she was going to do to inhabit

that place that feels comfortable, but
she's also opened a doorway for her

interlocutors to feel like, oh, thank
goodness, you know, she doesn't hate me.

Or I understand the scaffolding
around that type of communication.

And you could do that say with
a resting concentrating face,

which some of us have, right?

We have a flat affect and the other
person thinks, oh no, like they

must hate this idea or something.

And you could say, look, I tend to
have a resting concentrating face.

I'm really concentrating hard and I wanna
make sure I'm taking in all the details.

So let me do that, and
then I'm good to go.

Matt Abrahams: I also like that you're
signaling self-awareness, concern for

the other person, which buys you a lot
in terms of credibility and connection.

Thinking about that preamble, it
needs to be short and sweet I think,

'cause you could go on too long.

But I do think that it could
be helpful to prepare people.

I often use the analogy of, as a
communicator, you're like a tour guide.

Part of what a good tour guide
does is always sets expectations

so that the people on the tour
can relax and just enjoy it.

And what you're suggesting
is very similar.

You come in and you preview what's
going to happen in the interaction.

I like that idea.

Have you noticed certain behaviors,
physical behaviors, or way people

use their voice that actually works
against them in terms of demonstrating

warmth, connection, presence, anything
that you've seen that you might call

out and maybe give advice to avoid?

Kate Mason: I think the crossed arms is
always one that I do see a lot, and of

course it looks defensive, right, straight
away, and I have people say to me, it's

just comfortable, but it looks like
you're bracing for impact or pushing away.

That is one I noticed.

Your arms can be, if you just
move them down, it can signal

quite a big optical shift.

That's one of the ones I find is
maybe the most impactful in terms

of demonstrating optically openness.

It is slightly performative 'cause
I am saying do something different

with your body, but the impact of
it is so helpful and so revelatory

that I think it's worth it.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

And I appreciate the desire not to
give direct performative advice because

it's not about the performance, but
anytime you can be open, signals a

connection and a willingness to connect.

Many people gesture right in front of
their chest, which is a closed way.

If you just gesture a little
more broadly you're more open

and being open is helpful.

Now, I know before you got into the
communication coaching that you do,

and you are an expert at that, you
used to do executive communication work

within firms, big impactful firms that
we all know and use their products of.

What insights did you glean that can
help all of us when it comes to defining

a message or cascading a message
internally or keeping it tight and clear?

Give us sort of the lessons Kate
learned when you were doing executive

comms for really important companies.

Kate Mason: Gosh, so many.

I think the most surprising one maybe,
because these are big machines that

have a lot of spokespeople and a lot of
cogs in the machine, I think one of our

VPs at one of those companies used to
say repetition never spoils the prayer.

And I always loved that because it feels
like as smart, interesting people, each

time we need to reinvent the wheel.

Each interview we do, or each time we're
talking in front of an all hands or a

town hall, we must construct this fabulous
new set of metaphors or arguments.

And actually all of the research, as
you will know, points to the opposite.

That people take many times to hear
the same thing to really absorb it,

many times even in different ways,
or different channels, different

metaphors, but really the same message.

That was interesting to me because I came
in thinking I need new talking points, or

a whole new messaging deck, and actually
it was the same deck and the same points.

And really letting down your intellectual
curiosity for a moment and focusing on,

no, this role is actually in the purpose
or in the service of education, and

that comes with a degree of repetition.

But I can't impart that enough with
people because sometimes the chaotic

messaging you see in companies is actually
coming from probably well-intentioned

folks wanting to tell you everything
they know as distinct from deciding

on a couple of key themes or ideas,
and really going hard on those.

Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus,
critical themes and ideas, and then being

consistent and repetitive are critical.

And I love the quote about
repetition doesn't spoil the prayer.

I'm going to leverage that in what I do.

Because not only is it important for the
messaging, but it's important for the

messengers to understand because it can
feel like I'm saying the same thing over

and over again, but in fact, not everybody
is hearing it over and over again.

So that repetition is really important.

Kate Mason: And the real skillset
is to look excited about it and

like it's the first time you've
ever said it, every time you say it.

Matt Abrahams: And there's a
way to do that authentically.

I don't want people to hear that advice
was, it's not being disingenuous,

it's reminding yourself what's
important and what's the value.

You know, as a teacher, I teach a lot
of the same concepts repeatedly, but

I am so passionate about what those
concepts do for people, and it'll be

interesting to see what my students
think, that I bring that intensity.

So you're right.

It is about repetition,
but really owning that.

Before we end, I like to
ask people three questions.

One I make up just for you, and two,
I've been asking everybody for as

long as this show's been on the air.

Are you up for that?

Kate Mason: I'd love to.

Matt Abrahams: Well, you know I love
very practical, tactical tools and

you've been traveling all around in
support of your new book, providing

practical, tactical tools for people.

Can you share one that you found
resonates really well with people?

Kate Mason: I think one that's
really easy to implement now

is many of us over prepare.

Maybe that's got us to
where we are, right?

Maybe that's how we started our career.

But I see a real difference between
adequate preparation and over preparation.

The dangers of that are so many because
we get mired to the thing we've done,

and we are not as creative or agile in
an interaction as we otherwise could be.

So my challenge could be, could you do
five percent less, just five percent

less on a presentation or a meeting
prep for yourself and maybe ratchet down

those expectations and see how you go.

I'd be very surprised if you weren't
gonna keep ratcheting it down.

There's a lot of muscle memory there
that we can rely on, and actually

often we do much better work when we
are slightly even under-prepared, just

slightly than five percent over-prepared.

Matt Abrahams: There's a wonderful saying
in improvisation, good enough is great.

When you give yourself permission to be
more present, not over rehearsed, there's

an aliveness and a focus that comes.

I really appreciate that idea.

Preparation is key, but not
necessarily over preparation.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Kate Mason: I love Michelle Obama.

I think she just, I don't know her
personally, but it feels to me at least,

that she is who she is and she manages
to convey so many different forms

of authority, warmth, intelligence,
community building and rapport.

I think she's an exemplar of someone
who can very easily ratchet up and down

to different audiences, but maintain
a very solid sense of who she is.

I find that very admirable.

Matt Abrahams: There is a connective
feeling that you get when she speaks.

You feel like you know her.

Regardless of if you support her politics
or not, you definitely feel that she's

there in the moment speaking with you.

Final question.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Kate Mason: I think for me, they
are rapport building as number one.

Great listening as number two,
and humility as number three.

And humility, I mean, the ability to
see maybe where you might be wrong and

change and course correct accordingly.

I think those three things when
in place can be a really beautiful

mixture that gives creativity and
agility in the moment, but also some

solidity to yourself and who you are.

Matt Abrahams: And I see how
they feed into each other,

that listening builds rapport.

Humility continues a conversation going.

Do you have one quick
tip for building rapport?

Is there something that you
like to do to help connect?

Kate Mason: When I'm building rapport,
I usually look for, is there a

personal anecdote we can bond over?

Or maybe even make a joke with someone,
something that gets them out of any

performative state they might feel that
they're in and deescalate together.

So we can both be a little bit more
regulated for the conversation ahead.

Matt Abrahams: So it's a way of connecting
and taking some of the pressure off.

Kate, this has been fantastic.

I knew we were gonna have
a great conversation.

We always have a great
time when we get together.

Thank you for sharing ways that we
can get out of that performative

state and be more real and give
ourselves permission to be who we are.

I wish you well with your
new book, Powerfully Likable,

and thank you for joining us.

Kate Mason: Thank you so
much for having me, Matt.

It was a pleasure.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about communication,
status and power, listen to

episode 176 with Alison Fragale.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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