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In this episode, our co-hosts Érica, Bertrand, and Bernardo delve into the dynamic world of teamwork and its evolving role in today's professional landscape. We explore the essence of team spirit, the impact of culture on team dynamics, the challenges and rewards of teamwork in a digital age, and much more. Join us as we dissect these fascinating topics, offering insights and ideas for a more connected and collaborative future.
🎙️ In this Episode
🎙️ In this Episode
- (00:00) - Introduction and Welcome
- (00:08) - The Concept of Team Spirit
- (00:43) - The Role of Music in Team Building
- (01:08) - The Evolution of Teamwork in 2024
- (02:04) - The Importance of Teamwork in a Company
- (04:28) - The Challenges of Teamwork
- (08:12) - The Role of a Leader in a Team
- (09:32) - The Impact of Remote Work on Team Dynamics
- (15:49) - The Importance of Respect and Collaboration in a Team
- (22:24) - The Role of Individual Tasks in a Team
- (28:47) - The Importance of Team Growth for Company Success
- (30:47) - Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Creators & Guests
What is Tinkering the Future of Work and Life?
Every week we give a fresh and positive look at the future of work. We dream of a more people-centered digital world. We share little tips and magic tricks for greater daily confidence and serenity.
Once a month, we welcome a guest with a unique story and personality. Certainly not a media star, but a genuine hero of their life!
We inspire people to embrace change and create a better and kinder world.
[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome
Érica: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Blue Waves Podcast. Today I'm here with Bertrand. Hey! And Bernardo. Hello!
[00:00:08] The Concept of Team Spirit
Érica: Today we're talking about "Smells Like Team Spirit." Welcome to Tinkering with the Future of Work and Life, produced by Blue Waves Boutique. We provide you with a fresh and positive look at the future of work by sharing little tips and magical tricks for your daily dose of confidence.
Today, I heard something.
Bernardo: Today, I saw something.
Bertrand: Today, we tried something together, and we have learned...
[00:00:43] The Role of Music in Team Building
Bertrand: Sounds like a song from a nineties grunge band.
Érica: Yeah, Nirvana. Do you know them?
Bertrand: I think I do. I was there, listening to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" when I was younger. But what does it have to do with team spirit? Team spirit is something different, right?
Érica: Yes, but today we focus solely on work.
Bertrand: As a team.
[00:01:08] The Evolution of Teamwork in 2024
Bertrand: Does working as a team still exist in 2024?
I have the feeling it has diminished, sadly.
Érica: Yeah, a little bit sadly, like you said.
Bertrand: But I mean, why do we care? Because we work as a team, right? Yes. So we're fine.
Érica: It wasn't always easy.
Bertrand: And it's not just about us.
Érica: No. First, then, yes. Second, yes. Not easy.
Bertrand: So what do you want to talk about?
About a grunge song by Nirvana?
Érica: Ah, it's not about music.
Bertrand: Oh. We can talk about music if you want. We can even play music for the audience. I just think maybe some people would leave the podcast because they expect us to deliver insights and good tips about work and the current work environment, but we can talk about music if you want.
Érica: Now, maybe we should talk about what we know best. Yes,
Bernardo: we know more about teams than music. At least I understand more about teams than music.
[00:02:04] The Importance of Teamwork in a Company
Érica: Okay, so maybe we can start by discussing why people see teams as a responsibility rather than a support.
Bernardo: In my vision, in 2024, working as a team is seen as mandatory for companies. Working with people you don't like, people you don't know, you have to work together, complement each other, it seems like a hassle.
Bertrand: Yeah, maybe it seems like a hassle, but when companies define teams, they establish teams in different departments, they build an organigram, they create a hierarchical structure. But the first thing they do, which still exists in companies, is set individual objectives for people. It's very rare to see a company with real team objectives that are more important than individual objectives. So in that sense, it's very difficult, in my opinion, for a company to see a team as support, because they don't even view the team as such; they see responsibilities.
We talk a lot about OKRs for teams, indeed, and for individuals as well if you want, but it's for the company, for the team, and to align team objectives with the company's objectives. Sadly, what we observe nowadays is that companies set objectives on a project, on an initiative, and these objectives override. If you ask a company what the objective of your team is, they will describe to you more or less a role, more or less a mission, but not the goal of the team. And in that sense, it may be difficult for a company to see a team as support. Just my opinion, of course.
Érica: I can agree, but...
Bertrand: You don't have to agree if you don't want to.
Érica: No, but I do agree. But I think people should not just see a team in the company, but the team for your own sake, you know? There are people there to support you. They have the same mission, like you said, as you, so it's like friends, but at work, more or less, you know?
Bertrand: Oh, you mean colleagues? Yes. So they have coffee together, they share a cigarette break if they smoke, which they shouldn't do because it's not healthy, but anyway, if they smoke
, they share the lunch, they share some jokes. But when it comes to being a team, accomplishing something together as a team, and putting collaborative effort into doing something, that is missing. Whose fault is it?
[00:04:28] The Challenges of Teamwork
Bertrand: In my opinion, to be very honest, it's the structure of the company and the company culture that motivates people to act as individuals and forgets about the team.
Because when a company is creating objectives for initiatives, is creating a vision, they're doing it from the HR objective for individuals. When a manager sets individual objectives in a team before setting objectives for the team, how can you expect people, by themselves, alone, to have team spirit and think as a team?
It's very challenging and very difficult for them because everything around them is designed to foster behavior as an individual and not as a team. I...
Érica: don't agree with that. Well, if you really think about that, you've always been a part of a team, okay? You had to do work together in high school, in college, everything. The moment you enter a company, Made, see, whatever, whether you are the designer or you are...
post?
Bertrand: Yeah, you...
Bernardo: are supposed to know how to work as a team, even with people you don't know or you've never met. We are built from a young age to know how to work with others. So when you go to a company, there's a high expectation for you to know how to work with others together. Even when you don't have the right support or the guidance that you want.
Bertrand: Then you have to teach me. Because I remember being naturally a part of a team in primary school. In the recreation, playing with friends and teammates, we were playing together, playing the game together. This is the only part of my school years where I see something as a team.
Érica: Well, you were unlucky then. Sorry to tell you. But it's supposed when people have their first job or enter a company or anything, you're supposed to already know how to work in a team. It's true the job is different, you don't have the same responsibilities as in high school or college, that's true. But you have the main point of working as a team, like with others, for example.
Okay, maybe there's a difference between countries in education. Maybe in Germany, I know, for example, they do a lot of team activities, and team activities are encouraged at school. But most traditional education, if we take Europe, It's not focused on teamwork and if you take, for example, scientific studies anywhere in the world, teamwork is a very small part of your studies. Most of the work is solo.
Érica: It's true. Most of the work you do, it's alone, yes. But that's why I'm reinforcing the idea of a team, because you have the same mission as your colleagues or coworkers as you want them to call, so you have the same objective in the end.
Bertrand: So I think finally we all agree, because you say you have the same mission as your colleague and as your teammates, but the problem is in the company you don't. Because let's say you have a product manager, the product manager doesn't share the product with the team, he shares a backlog, and the backlog is owned by the backlog.
For example, a team is building a digital product, there are only developers, not a tester. And companies fail for over 20 years to create this kind of team, which is supposed to be done, if you look at modern methods of organization in a company. It fosters a shared goal around the product and to do something together, but still, the company is structured in silos.
Marketing is marketing, they don't care about what you do for a project and how you conceive your product. Technique is technique and they don't care how you build your product and what your client thinks. And that's why, maybe, we still don't have solid teams in companies.
Bernardo: I...
think based on what you said, I don't think that's the fault of the team.
[00:08:12] The Role of a Leader in a Team
Bernardo: It's the company that doesn't provide them with a leader.
Bertrand: Exactly. That's what I was trying to say. Maybe people would work as a team if you would help them to do so, or even just allow them to do so. But when you have a meeting, for example, and you are the guy who is testing the product you are building, you're not allowed to give your point of view on what's the product you do or how it should work. How do you expect to foster a team spirit?
Érica: that's when they take breaks, have
coffee, smoke, everything. But smoking is not good. That's why that exists for any reason. And you can take advantage of that time to talk to your colleagues or coworkers because it's different. And you can say, you can talk to them and you can try to build a team spirit. If the company doesn't give you the support you need for creating a team. Think about it, you already have a team, so you should work with them.
Bertrand: I agree.
Érica: Thank you. That's good.
Bertrand: Wait, wait, wait. It's not that easy. Yeah. You won't escape. I totally agree with you. In a company, you have social moments that can compensate for the poor way of working of the company or the weak support of the company.
[00:09:32] The Impact of Remote Work on Team Dynamics
Bertrand: What do you do now when most of the team are working remotely or are in a hybrid model, call it whatever you want? What's missing is this natural, spontaneous, occasional, unplanned social moments where you can meet the colleagues that you don't know to share a coffee, see someone in the corridor, or meet someone in the office and have this kind of small talk conversation that totally disappears when you work remotely if you don't put extra effort into rebuilding it.
Érica: Not really. Okay, if you are already in the company for years, you've managed to create a bit of a relationship. If you enter now into the company and you have only remote work, I doubt it. But if you only had remote work, you can create that moment as well because you always have to talk with someone because you need help or this or that. And for sure, like humans, we are, we will talk about something else because we always...
Uh, in...
Bernardo: some...
companies, you also have digital break rooms where people get together for their breaks. You also have WhatsApp, emails, messages. There are always ways to go around this situation. People don't use it. It's...
Bertrand: maybe they need someone to show them that they should use it. They need a super nice guy who is a super communicator who will facilitate and promote this kind of behavior.
Bernardo: And most of them have it. The problem is that the company doesn't support it. Because in every team you have a good leader, which can also be a good communicator, but the lead manager doesn't support it.
They just want...
the job done.
Érica: You're being too negative on me. Okay. The company doesn't support it, yes, but you are an individual. You can talk. So why don't...
you do it?
Bernardo: Why don't I do it? Fear of repercussions?
Érica: In the example of Bertrand, in digital, if you have to call someone because you need help because no one answered to your question or something like that, you can start a conversation from there. Of course, I'm not talking, you only talk about small things, not that. Of course. Well, you get to the point of what you need, of course, but you have to create a relationship with that person as well. In the digital world, it's easier, like you said, to not have repercussions from the manager. In the office, you can also have that, the break.
Bernardo: In the smoke breaks, don't smoke.
Bertrand: Yeah, for sure. Actually, I didn't want to be negative. I just wanted to point out that everything we need to create social interaction, whether it's physical space or digital space, everything exists. Just in the physical space, we had hundreds of years to get used to the behavior and to perfectly know what the behavior is.
You know that when you enter a company, even if you are a junior, even if it's your first job, you know that the coffee machine exists. You know that if you smoke, but don't smoke, that some people smoke outside and you spot the ashtray at the entrance, so it exists. You know that there is a place to eat, and usually people go eat together.
Just maybe in the digital world, even if it exists as well, as you said, Bernardo, it exists. You have break rooms, you have chats, you have events, you have whatever you want. It didn't exist before, so it's something new. For some people who are maybe super digital-savvy or with high autonomy, they will discover it by themselves.
But some others don't really know how to use it. It exists, it's there, but it's new. And when it's new, usually you're a little bit scared of the stuff. You don't know what you can put inside or not put inside. Maybe what you said about repercussions or something. Or even you don't know what to do,
how to introduce yourself, how to talk to each other.
And that's where I was saying there is one more role for the leader in a team to embrace if you want to keep it as a team. So pay attention that your team is tied together and being a team is not only performing the work together. It's also being a real team, having connection, interaction, knowing each other, knowing how other people think, how other people feel.
And for that, maybe you need this kind of leader who creates glue. Yes, for sure.
Érica: And like you said, Bernardo, about the company, we have to remind ourselves that teams help the company to grow, like you said. Mm-hmm. So it's one point that you cannot have repercussions about that.
Bernardo: Yeah, of course as individuals we can also work towards the growth of the company, but alone, we cannot accomplish at least half of the work that we do as a team, you need the support of others, you need feedback. You need everyone else.
Érica: Yes, and we are not saying that you need to be friends with everyone, because some people are just coworkers, and the others, they are more close relationships you can have at work.
Bernardo: So there is a difference.
Érica: Yes.
Bertrand: Yeah, friends, colleagues, coworkers, it's all different. What they have in common is some sense of collaboration at a time. And what you said, Bernardo, is very true. But, what do you want to do with a company? You mentioned your company has 100,000 people inside. Usually, they don't have small projects in this company.
Everything is huge, everything requires, or most of the things require, more than one person to perform the job. Working as a team, if you want the company to grow, you should work as a team. Finally, we are talking about engagement. If the company doesn't pay enough attention to team engagement, and not only reaching the goal while performing the task. Is the team engaged? Do they like what they do? Do they enjoy working together? Do they like the challenges they have? Do they strive to reach their goal? If you don't pay attention to that and put specific effort, then you're screwed as a company. Because engaging an individual is definitely not enough.
And not engaging your teams would be a major mistake.
Bernardo: It's a disaster.
Bertrand: It is.
Érica: Why do people need to join a team? Join, not to have a team.
Bertrand: Yes, that's another problem. As an individual, why would you work as a team and not alone?
[00:15:49] The Importance of Respect and Collaboration in a Team
Bertrand: Because sure, we know for the company, we know the company benefits, but what's in it for the people who just arrive in the company, are knowledgeable, have skills, why should they join a team?
Bernardo: I believe that when you work alone, as an individual, when you reach a certain point and you have a challenge, you will have a bit more difficulty overcoming that challenge alone. As when you work as a team, a tight-knit team with the right support and the right leader, you all can overcome the challenge in a faster and simpler way, because if you don't have the knowledge to overcome that, somebody else in the team has it, or has the experience that already overcame that challenge.
Érica: We can even step back,
Bertrand: Step back is a word of today, but it's an internal joke, so they won't understand. Yes, let's step back.
Érica: You can even, when you enter a company, have you imagined yourself working all by yourself in a company? It's way less motivating.
Bertrand: Something was motivating.
Érica: Yes.
Bernardo: It's demotivating, yeah.
Érica: Thank you, Bernardo. Then working with someone, because as a human being, you need to interact with others in a positive way, of course. So a team helps you as an individual to grow and do your work better. And then yes, if you have a challenge, like you said.
Bertrand: I would even put a little icing on the cake. Even if you have so many skills that you don't need anyone to perform your job perfectly in the company, it doesn't make sense not to work as a team because you can have super skills. But if you work alone, you will make mistakes, even with super skills, and you will not learn anything. Even if you have all the skills to perform the job perfectly, it's always super interesting and enriching for people. It makes you a more interesting person, it makes your job more interesting to have different points of view. People will disagree, people will give you feedback, even if you don't agree with
how to do the job, because how do you want to discover new ways of doing the job? Sure, you will succeed, which we all will do the same. And it's gonna be very boring.
Bernardo: Yes. I just want to put a disclaimer. JGPT is not a team a colleague on a team, you need to work with other human beings.
Bertrand: You really want this discussion? No, no, no, no, no, no.
Bernardo: I was just saying because to work on a team, you have to work with other people...
Bertrand: to do the work together.
One day in many years, in a few decades, if mankind survives, humans will realize that the machine is just a machine. You can give commands to the machine and the machine will put out a result. you don't speak, you don't chat GPT, you don't have a conversation. It's not a teammate, it's not a human. It's a tool to execute some specific tasks faster, not more.
Bernardo: it doesn't help you to grow. A team is supposed to help each other grow.
Érica: Yes. And of course, you will face challenges. Of course, we will have issues working together because it's not easy for us to learn or to work all together. Of course, every person is different. So you have to adapt, change a lot of things. But in the end, yes, Bernardo, you can grow as an individual, as a team, and as a company.
Bertrand: Sure, and challenges help you to grow as well. Because out of a disagreement, usually, comes something new. And disagreement can be useful. Fight, maybe not. If you can avoid them, avoid fights. But disagreement, diverging points of view.
Bernardo: Different experiences.
Bertrand: Diversity in the team is important, and it helps you create, it helps you grow, and the most important, where the company succeeds, because we were talking about the company, the company grows, where the team grows, they are all growing together, therefore it's important also for the team to have these kinds of challenges, to give them the opportunity to grow.
Érica: Yes, and you have a lot of opportunities in your work to learn new things, to even perform a different type of work with the team, different from what you do alone.
Bertrand: Exactly.
That's a very important point what you say because it can only happen in a team. For a couple of years, I had a team. It was a digital team building digital apps for a large public company. We had the art director. The art director is a creative person. This creative person had super skills to connect to people. And just because of that, she could experiment totally another role, which is a facilitator for the team. And she did great.
And she also managed to facilitate discussion between testers and developers. Usually, the discussion ends nowhere, and she managed to do the facilitation for that. For her, it was interesting, for the others, it was interesting. She taught design to the developers, developers taught her how to implement her design directly in the code.
So it's opportunities to learn another kind of job, or another phase of your job. Of course, you can do it alone, you can be an autodidact, you can learn by yourself, but DIY learning alone, without someone to give you some feedback or to guide you, you can learn, but for sure you will build bad habits and you will have gaps of knowledge somewhere.
Érica: Yes, and working together is more fun, actually. Can be difficult sometimes, but in the end, it's more fun to work with someone else than working alone.
Bertrand: Yeah, maybe because the periods when you have a challenge are shorter if you work in a team. Which makes it more fun, because if you struggle with something and you're alone, you will struggle for a while until you find a solution. You have a big chance if you are as a team. That maybe the challenge you face is not that dramatic, and that you find a solution faster, or funnier.
Érica: It can be difficult, but I always heard that two brains think better than one.
Bernardo: I imagine four.
Bertrand: Depends on the state of a brain, yeah?
Érica: Yes. But at...
Bertrand: least there are brains.
Always a matter of brain. Always a matter of brain. Because some brains sometimes slow you down a little bit. Depends on the brain, yeah?
Érica: But it can help as well, because for sure even the slowest brain can think of something different than yours that doesn't think.
Bernardo: This will be called thinking...
Bertrand: outside the box.
Exactly. Yeah, sure.
Speaking from the amount of brains, what else do we need to build a good functional team?
Bernardo: Brains! After brains.
[00:22:32] The Role of Individual Tasks in a Team
Érica: So I think we should always keep in mind that of course we have our tasks to be done. Of course, we have our own job, work. But don't forget to work together in your team. Don't forget to do what you can do together, who can improve together, do it.
Bertrand: Yeah, the purpose is more important than the task.
Exactly. And finally, the task can be for you alone, but the purpose is usually the team's purpose. So you need a purpose. Mm-hmm. You want to do the answers, so you need a brain and a purpose.
Bernardo: I think the purpose is also more important than...
Bertrand: the brain. No? Don't worry, if you don't have a brain, you won't find a purpose, so anyway.
That's true, yeah. So let's cook the team further. What else do we need? We have a brain, we have a purpose.
Bernardo: I think respect for each other is also a good thing...
Bertrand: for a team. Yeah, team agreements. Of course. I don't think you can...
Bernardo: work well with a person that doesn't respect you.
Bertrand: More or less a team is a mini version of a society. And each society comes with rules, with rights and duties. Things you can do, things you cannot do. Society comes with right and wrong values.
Érica: I wanted to say the other side of the coin, what I said is to know how to work alone in your own team. For example, for us, we have our own alone tasks, but in the end, we are always together to share it, to talk about it,
Bertrand: to guide others. Yeah, I think it's very important because when we say teamwork, teamwork is not performing every single task as a team, because if you do so, you will get bored first.
It will be exhausting second, and you will spend your life waiting. Because if you wait to perform every task as a team, it's just not possible. And on top of that, it doesn't make sense. It's all about taking and giving with the team. You bring something to the team, you give something to the team, you take something, energy, feedback, knowledge from the team.
You sometimes have tasks that you perform by your side, and you give the result, or half the result, or an in-progress version back to the team to get feedback from the team, for example.
No, but...
Bernardo: like Érica said, a team has to work together, but also needs to know when and how to work alone. I think that's the principle of collaboration inside the teams. You have to work alone on your own tasks. And like you said, either half of your task or when you're done, you share with the team, ask for feedback, support, guidance, and help.
Each one of the elements of the team does their own thing, and when they're done or halfway done, they share it and collaborate between each of them.
Bertrand: And finding the balance is the key between the tasks you perform alone, how long you stay alone, how often you share, when do you share, the intention of sharing, and the value of completing, creating value alone as well.
Érica: Yes, and this for example, we are talking about what builds a team is something that you have to learn by yourself and you have to learn as a team because no company, no leader will tell you when you have to do it or not. You have to decide it as a team, when or not to collaborate.
Yeah, there...
Bernardo: is no rulebook on...
Bertrand: that.
No, there is no rulebook made, but as a team, you should create one. Because imagine if you are a team and you have newcomers, if they have to relearn and learn everything by themselves and nobody is teaching them. It will be very challenging and difficult.
Érica: But inside of the team you can, if you have a new onboarding, you can always talk to them. Inside of the team you can talk to the other person, the other people. You don't have just to stick in your own team.
Bertrand: If you tell a newcomer, everyone can knock on the door of the CEO and enter just an ID. If you tell it, the newcomers will not do that. Because he's scared and remains scared. If you write it, he will do.
Érica: I don't agree, sorry. I think it's the confidence you have, the time you are in the company. Of course, if I enter now into the company, I will not. But if I do, of course, I will not do what
the guy was there for 10 years. Ah, you can go, enter there. Of course not, I don't have the confidence. I don't know already what I'm doing inside, so maybe. In a few years, if I stay there, maybe I will have the confidence or to talk to my manager or whatever to say something or suggest something.
Bertrand: But if you write it, it will be 10 times faster.
Bernardo: And I think you'll also learn from observing...
Bertrand: others. Exactly. Mm-hmm.,
Bernardo: taking your example as a newcomer, I would never knock on the door of the CEO, even if it was written, because I don't have that confidence as a newcomer. But if I observe people that entered either months or years before me into the same behavior, then I'll feel more confident to do the same because I am observing other people doing the same, even if it's written or not.
Bertrand: How do you do it remotely? 'cause you don't see them?
Érica: You have always to work in the team as well, digitally or not. You always have to talk to someone.
Bertrand: Yes, but you don't see them doing that, for example. Because when they do that, they are Let's say the office is physical. You see them going to the door of the CEO. So you see that a lot of people enter the office of the CEO. Even if remotely and with remote team you have great communication with your team, you know the team members go to the CEO, but you don't see the rest of the company physically you would see. So it will grow the confidence faster.
Érica: I don't know. Yeah. Even if you don't see people talk, people will always talk in companies. If you are in the team, the team will talk. You're not excluded from the company, so you already know something. And I believe, it's easier to have confidence digitally than physically, because digitally they don't see your face.
Bernardo: And you don't see anyone else, yeah. Yes, you don't see the instant...
Bertrand: reaction.
Maybe you will be more reluctant to knock on the door, but as soon as you will be in the room, you will have more confidence digitally than physically. Exactly. For sure.
[00:28:56] The Importance of Team Growth for Company Success
Bertrand: Anyway, nothing is... But maybe we should wrap up this episode because we have a lot of things to share with our audience and a lot of work for them, actually, because if we start with the first one, A team is there to help the company to grow. When the team grows, the company grows. But if you want the team to grow, you should put dedicated, specific effort to support your team and make it grow. And not only put everything, objectives, goals on the initiative and what you accomplish, but put your teams first.
What's the first one we said, if I remember well?
Bernardo: I think the second one, and this is very important for companies to understand, is that a good team is built and grown. It doesn't just magically fall from the sky. You need the right support, you need a good leader that sticks with the team, both in the good and the bad moments, and helps them overcome either challenges or difficulties and helps them grow.
Érica: I wanted to add that even if it's difficult, seeing a team or thinking about a team like your friends. For example, if you want to plan something with your friends, it's always chaotic because nobody can, the schedule is different, everything. The team is more or less the same, okay? So even if you're not together, you can work with one and do asynchronous work with the others.
I'm not saying that you should, like, have the closest relationship with your colleagues. But you can make that parallel, so it's easier for you.
Bertrand: when you build your team, continue to invest in your collaboration. And the way you collaborate, and still, there are a lot of things that are not written anywhere and there is no book or reference. Particularly by now where the word configuration network changed a little bit over the past years.
So you have to create it and you have to pay attention to it to make it work.
Does it sound like a closing?
[00:30:55] Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Bertrand: Yes. Yes.
Bernardo: Also seems like many people will have a lot of work.
Bertrand: We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you have any questions, of course, you can always reach out to us, ask us, and we can help you build your team. Because that's what we do every day, and we invest a lot in our team as well.
So, we've learned a little bit
. Yes. See you. See ya. Bye bye.
Still with us? We hope you enjoyed the episode and learned something valuable. We would love to hear from you and continue the discussion on Instagram at Blue Waves Boutique. You will find the link in the description. It was Tinkering the Future of Work and Life with Érica, Bernardo, and Bertrand.
Bernardo: See you next week for new amazing stories.