Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split A Toaster: A divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, how do you split an antique toaster?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson and as always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today, Carol Hughes and Bruce Fredenburg join us to share their experience with women and men facing the prospect of divorce later in life. They've each spent years with these couples in their own clinical practices and cataloged the experience in Home Will Never Be The Same: A Guide for Adult Children of Gray Divorce. Carol, Bruce, welcome to the toaster.
Carol Hughes:
Thanks, Seth. Thank you for having us.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Yeah. We're really glad to be here.
Pete Wright:
This is fantastic. I think this is really great because we're talking about a demographic we don't normally talk about, right? Seth, am I right?
Seth Nelson:
Well, some of the stuff we've talked about might apply to the demographics.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
A lot of times, we talk about parents with small children or with children. But this is... And we're going to hear a lot more from Bruce and Carol on this point, but this is what I would call an under-serviced population.
Carol Hughes:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
That's what it feels like to me because when we talk about divorce, the people in my head that we're talking about look like me. And yet, the people we talk about when we talk about what I'm scared of look like my parents. I don't want them to get divorced. And they're fine. But that's the sort of fear as a child of that. So, I'm very excited to hear what you all have to say. Can you give us just, by way of a little background, each of you, what brought you to the point where you came together and decided, "We're going to write a book about this population?"
Bruce Fredenburg:
Well, in many ways... I'll let Carol tell the main part of the story, but it's really Carol's story in that we have both been in practice for about 30 years. And through the course of our practice, we've encountered people whose parents were divorcing late in life. And in our work with divorce that we've been doing a lot of... But Carol wrote a blog article and it was about adult children of gray divorce and the whole phenomenon.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And it was picked up by a writer for the New York Times. And then because it's the New York Times, it got a great circulation. A few months later an agent from one of the literary agents in New York read the article and it resonated with her and contacted Carol and asked if she would be willing to write a book about it. And she asked me if I would join her in this quest. And I said, yes, because Carol usually has good ideas. And I had no idea it was going to be a four-year project. And Carol thoroughly, what did I leave out?
Carol Hughes:
Thank you very much [inaudible 00:03:06] and Bruce. We've been working. And this is one population that we've worked with over the years, because the research has indicated that since 1990, this demographic of gray divorce people which is 45 to 50 years and older, has doubled between 1990 and 2015. And Bowling Green State University, who did the research on this and coined the term 'gray divorce revolution' their analytics predict that this population of divorce will triple by 2030.
Seth Nelson:
Wow. 45 and above is what you're telling me?
Carol Hughes:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Seth Nelson:
That is quite the statistic.
Carol Hughes:
It is.
Bruce Fredenburg:
In fact, the actual numbers are really amazing. We didn't realize how large it was till we started to research it, but and this is an old status statistic that was probably three, four years old. But about 300,000 couples a year enter this experience. So that's 600,000 people just in the parents. And that demographic has one to two kids. So somewhere between 900,000 and 1.2 million people enter this demographic every year. And they're not only an underserved population. They're generally an unserved population.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And the wounds can go on for a lot of years. So a lot of the people who entered it last year and the year before, many of them are still experiencing the same problems.
Carol Hughes:
And the statistics that Bruce just gave us are for the United States and-
Bruce Fredenburg:
Alone. Yeah.
Carol Hughes:
And when we hear that other industrialized countries are experiencing the same phenomenon, you can imagine how those numbers increase. In fact, in Japan, instead of calling it the gray divorce, they call it the retired husband syndrome. In Canada, they call it-
Seth Nelson:
So hold on a second, hold on a second.
Carol Hughes:
I'm just saying, I didn't make it up.
Pete Wright:
I was waiting for that.
Seth Nelson:
We're not letting that one slip by, okay.
Carol Hughes:
That's what they call it.
Seth Nelson:
The retired husband. So my parents have been married for over 50 years.
Carol Hughes:
Good for them.
Seth Nelson:
And they tell the joke that they've been happily married for five. And then they pick five out of the 50. Which was no minor children at home during those years. But some of my mother's friends, and both my parents worked full-time jobs their entire careers. But my mom worked a lot out of the house. She was a trial attorney, a civil rights attorney, but would work from home a lot. And then when my dad retired from being a professor at University of South Florida, their friends would say, "Oh my gosh, it's so nice. You can have lunch together." And my mom would say, "No, no, no. We married for life, not for lunch."
Carol Hughes:
That's good. That's very good.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So we've got retired husband's syndrome in Japan. What do they call it in Canada?
Carol Hughes:
Canada calls it the diamonds splitters.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Diamond divorces.
Carol Hughes:
Thank you Bruce. Diamond divorces.
Seth Nelson:
Diamond divorces.
Carol Hughes:
And then the UK calls it silver splitters.
Seth Nelson:
That's catchy.
Carol Hughes:
Quite a few little catchy names there. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Well, at least it's well branded. Even if the population is ignored, what's going on with why this? You corrected us and said, this is unserved population. What is it that makes this population unserved?
Carol Hughes:
Well, and Bruce can add a lot to this too. In our culture, and I think most industrialized cultures 18 years old is kind of the magical number and majority where they become adults. And so we start to think in our mythology that these people are adults and they'll just roll with whatever happens in their lives, not like minor children. However, I have yet to meet a grownup who is divorcing, who hasn't had, or isn't experiencing some negative feelings, some who are more powerful than others.
Carol Hughes:
So this Chileans mythology, why would we believe that the adult children have no feelings that need to be addressed? And no feelings of crisis or trauma?
Bruce Fredenburg:
However, when people enter the legal system, if they're having an adversarial divorce, they'll say if they come up in the conversation at all, the attorneys tell them, well, they have no standing. Don't worry about it. They're going to be... they don't have any legal standing. And a lot of people will say, "Well, your kids are going to be okay, they're grown." And that's really seductive for a parent to hear their kids are going to be okay. If you've got kids and at this time in their life, the divorcing couple especially for the leavee, but for the leaver too.
Bruce Fredenburg:
They're overwhelmed with all their own emotions of what's ahead? Of fear or what's going on with me? And so if somebody tells them, that's one less thing to worry about, don't worry about the kids that can be really seductive. And plus the mythology in our culture, grow up, put on your big boy, big girl pants, just blow it off. You're lucky they didn't do it when you were a kid. And so they start to feel there's something wrong with them for feeling that way.
Bruce Fredenburg:
So they don't tell people about it. Or if they do, and then it starts disrupting their own new family. If they've got their own nuclear family or gets in the way of work, or they just become distanced from the parents.
Seth Nelson:
That's a really interesting point that you raised Bruce. Because when I have a case where the children are 18 or older, I will say from a legal perspective, they are not involved in this case. It does not mean that they're not impacted by this case. And those are two dramatically different things. And kind of the closer in age to 18, but over so 18, 19, 20, 21 in college, we do tend to focus on them a bit more. I will confess my sins as you're about to tell me I've made all these years.
Seth Nelson:
If they're 35, I never discussed the adult children at that age. When I'm discussing the college kids, I might say, it's not relevant per Florida family law, Pete, you know what we're going to say, check your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
Check your local jurisdiction.
Seth Nelson:
You have to check the box bingo, but it plays into it because sometimes a settlement agreement might account for paying for an adult child's college or room and board or car insurance, or who's going to keep them on their medical insurance and stuff like that. Never once crossed my mind if the divorcing parents had adult children that were 35.
Pete Wright:
I think this begs a really interesting question though. And we don't have to talk about it now, but I want to make sure I lodge my point. What would you do differently as an attorney for an older couple, with older children to support those clients now aware that there is some impact by this? How would that change the legal process for you as a divorce attorney? I'm really curious about it.
Seth Nelson:
No, it wouldn't change the legal process, but it will certainly change now. I've just here learned something on the toaster. I'm thrilled, is that I'm going to say, how are your relationships with your adult children? And I do ask that question because I call anyone, not just adult children, anybody else that I don't see, but they're around. I call them the ghost people.
Seth Nelson:
They're around, they're influencing what's happening. I never see them, but they are impacting my client in how they get through this divorce process. So I see this more of adult children when there's grandchildren. And I then asked my client, "Well, okay, what's going on with that?" But now it's almost because I'm falling in back to like little kids. Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Sure.
Seth Nelson:
But for me-
Pete Wright:
It's easy to understand the impact on little kids of divorce, whether they're children, grandchildren, whatever generation.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Or I'll ask, are the kids going to take sides? How's that going to impact you? What does that mean? but Bruce, Carol, what are your thoughts on that?
Pete Wright:
Is there a best practice for attorneys in this relationship?
Carol Hughes:
I think so. And I'm not a legal expert, but I certainly work alongside a lot of attorneys in the collaborative divorce process and even litigation that people choose. One of the attorneys that we know, have known for many years speaks of the adult children. He calls them children of the marriage, which I think is a great term as a mental health professional because they are children of the marriage. It really focuses on the relationships, and it isn't just that they're adult children.
Carol Hughes:
And he also taught us that they, he calls them stakeholders in their parents' divorce, which is a lot of like what you're saying, Seth is the ghost people. We call them the shadow people or the Greek chorus. Those are pretty negative-
Pete Wright:
That's pretty dark you guys.
Carol Hughes:
I know that's why I-
Pete Wright:
I got to tell you I feel like I'm cruising up towards more door with Frodo and Sam.
Carol Hughes:
I know that's why I like children as the marriage because it's neutral. And I like Seth, what you said about how your relationships with your adult children, because we like to educate people. There's a very famous psychiatrist at UCLA Dan Siegel, who is very well known in our field. And he's one of the co-founders of the UCLA mindfulness research Institute. And he says that human beings are wired for relationships, period. And it's all about relationships, period. And I liked that it's succinct. And I tell parents this, because what are your relationships just, as you said, Seth, with your adult, children of the marriage?
Carol Hughes:
And these relationships go on, the research shows from the cradle to the grave. And it's pretty sobering if they're of the mindset that Bruce was talking about earlier being seduced into what we want our kids to be okay. We think they're okay. They have their own lives now. And they aren't often and interferes with work and other issues, as Bruce said a minute ago, and Bruce, maybe you're very good at sharing stories. The attorney I'm talking about how he talks to his clients.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Sure. And I always like to point out to people that life is primarily an emotional experience, not an intellectual one. Now, we obviously value education and we value the intellect because we went to school for a long time. But if I play a song on the radio that reminds you of being 15 years old, I guarantee your first thought will not be quadratic equations or conjugating Spanish verbs. It will be how you felt, and how I felt, and who liked me? And worse, who didn't like me that I wanted to like me?
Bruce Fredenburg:
It's the emotions come up. So people don't need to reminded of, "Don't forget the pension plan." Or "Don't forget the 401k." Because they know they need money. But I think for most people going forward, what's really going to impact their life, and the regret is going to be, if they lose a relationship with a child or it gets conflicted. And so the story one of our attorneys tells it's a client he had, that he was real sure that he didn't have to give his wife anything. I forget the technical reasons, but maybe she would have a little bit of her own social security, which wasn't much.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And he was being left and he was really angry and he just was going to make sure she didn't get anything. And he could point to the places in the law. And in conversation, the attorney discovered that, one of his pleasures in life is going fishing with his grandson. And so-
Seth Nelson:
And that's about to stop.
Bruce Fredenburg:
[crosstalk 00:15:46] you think she's not going to have any money? You think she might be living with your children? Yeah. Well, so how do you think it's going to be when you go over there to pick up your grandson and he knows what's happened to grandma and your kids know, and there you are, do you think that's going to impact this at all? And the light went on for him and suddenly they had a much more amicable discussion about how to look at the family assets and who needs what and how they're going to get it.
Seth Nelson:
Well, the interesting point about that is that conversation shifted that client's perspective from positional to interests. The position is under the law. I'm entitled to X. She's not entitled. She's only entitled to Y and that's why I'm going to stick with. Which if you go to court, that's what's going to happen. But in a settlement, doesn't matter what the law is, check your local jurisdiction. The judge has to sign off on it. That being said, if you focused on your interests in what is important to you, those interests actually might align with your soon to be former spouse, even though you're no longer going to be living under the same roof. And that makes settlement much more productive or conversations productive in the hopes of reaching an amicable resolution.
Carol Hughes:
Very well said, Seth.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Hopefully it does. Yes. However, once in a while, some people are so entrenched in the hurt and pain, if you don't catch them before the next sentence, when they ramp up their anger again, it's a tricky business.
Pete Wright:
I want to step back in time. I think this relates, but I want to step back just a little bit and talk about the changing value proposition around the value of, and expectations around divorce for older people, and how it relates to the values and expectations of divorce for their children. That I assume to get us to this point has to have changed over the years. And we hear this anecdotally, oh, divorce is more accepted now than it was in 1950, 1960. But what is that looking like? And how do those rates parallel for the adults getting a divorce and the adult children of those getting divorced?
Carol Hughes:
One of the things that we did for this book is we did try to find as much research as we could that had been already done on this population, the adult children. There's very little research we do included in the book. And what that research has come up with thus far is that, the adult children, over 50% of the adult children and the different research studies from ages 18 to 50 did say that they were very negatively affected by their parents' divorce, older parents, obviously. And their families were too. If they had children, their work life was affected. They're worrying about their parents. Maybe they have to help their parents financially, or as the story Bruce just told, the parent lives in with one of them.
Carol Hughes:
And over 50% were very stressed and the parents agreed. They surveyed research the parents too, so much so that sometimes they do become strange from their divorcing parents because it's just too much. They're in a kind of what we call a sandwich generation if they have their own children. So they're feeling pulled in both directions to take care of their own kids, if they have children, and their adult children. The good news in the research is that between five and 10 years later, if the adult children were strange and their parents the majority had reconnected, which underscores Dan Siegel's comments about relationships are what it's all about, period forever.
Pete Wright:
Does that make those kids less likely to divorce themselves?
Carol Hughes:
Again, we don't have enough research on that yet. What this research said is that once we quoted is that it does make adult children question their ability to stay married. "What if I'm going to be the Apple that doesn't fall far from the tree?" And many of them did start seeing couples counselor, or whatever to separate what they were feeling, the negative feelings and fears and all from their parents divorced from their own marriage. And the younger ones, 18 to 20, 30. However, the ones that are single, reported the same thing. That they started questioning, not 100% of them, but a significant number. It's a good question. Pete.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I think that falls in line Pete with what we've discussed previously, where divorce happens in clusters.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Exactly. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Where somebody gets divorced and it's like, they're going to start questioning their own. And grass is always greener on the other side, as they say, and, "Oh, look at my buddy, he's got all this free time all of a sudden. Or every other weekend off, he doesn't have the kids and he's doing X, Y, and Z." But I always try to remind people that you only seen what those individuals choose to share. Very rarely do you see on Facebook, "I'm just having a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.
Seth Nelson:
And all I want to do is move to Australia." A great children's book that I was read to a lot as a child, but it's all the fun stuff. Sometimes when people will post sad stuff, but no one ever posts when they do something wrong. So it's that outward appearance that there's a lot of other emotions going on underneath that, that you might not be seeing.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Again, there isn't a lot of research on this, but some of the research we found is that the father adult child relationship is most at risk. And part of the risk for the mother sometimes, especially if they have been a stay-at-home raiser of the kids, sometimes could be over money issues. They can become especially dependent on their adult children. And then that can cause a rift in that relationship. Particularly when somebody is already married, if suddenly their nuclear family resources are going to the other person's parents.
Bruce Fredenburg:
They might like those parents, but they're not their parents. And they see money going out the door that could be going to their kids, their family. And so all those complications come up that can put real strain on the adult child, parent relationship. If they don't avoid some real significant mistakes.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And then there's a complication sometimes if one of the parents is the caregiver for the other parent. That burdens can fall on the adult children. And so there has to be some way for the caregiver parent, who's maybe leaving for their own better life they feel, but to help their kids with the transition, because they're going to know all the medical things and people don't think about that going forward. But we were asked to write an article about that for a caregiver magazine and started noticing all those things people don't even think to bring out.
Carol Hughes:
And I want to underscore what Bruce just started with about the relationship with the father. That is what the research indicates actually sadly with minor children too. And we certainly have seen that in our clinical practices and in our divorce work that we do. The father is usually not as connected in general with the children minor and adult. And that's a big loss for minor and adult children just to add that.
Seth Nelson:
It's really interesting you said that about caregivers. My grandmother passed away and my grandfather remarried to a woman whose husband had passed away. And on my dad's side, it's the only grandmother I ever knew. And when they got older and she was doing a lot of the caregiving for my grandfather. So my step-grandmother was, she basically couldn't handle it anymore and said, "Oh, I want him to go live with one of the adult children," Or put them in a different home than they were in, in my mind being a divorce attorney, is, "Oh, she's wanting a divorce without the divorce."
Seth Nelson:
But what you're saying is if they actually get divorced, that caregiving responsibility is going to go to one of the adult children. And that's something that we don't really consider. The legal world, we wouldn't even think about that. Other than maybe if there's an expense that you need and who's going to pay for it. So it's very interesting, all the different ways that adult children are impacted based upon where their parents who are going through the divorce are at, in what stages in their life.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Which leads me to what I mentioned, avoiding the worst mistakes. You'd mentioned it earlier, taking sides. When somebody assumes the right to tell someone else what kind of relationship they're allowed to have with their other parent, that's a real boundary issue. The divorcing couple needs to understand that their relationship with each other is not the same relationship each kid has with them. And their siblings who are the aunts and uncles of the adult children or cousins. A lot of times people will want to take sides for the person they're related to.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And so the parents would do well to talk to their extended family and tell people not only what I would like you not to do that, but you're really not allowed to do that because it's going to make our lives much harder. And that the kids need to be informed that they have a right to not be drawn into bash the other parent conversations, which can be really uncomfortable. But most parents aren't going to go out and tell their siblings to do that because they're busy dealing with their own emotions and their hurt.
Bruce Fredenburg:
But after the divorce is over and when the lines have been drawn and people who've been in each other's lives, the extended family for 25, 30, 40 years, and suddenly there's that rift and the kids have a lot of pressure to take up sides, one way people cope with that stress is just to withdraw from everybody. Parks and all here, I'm going to hide out, I'm going to drink more, whatever they do is to do it.
Seth Nelson:
Or they just don't invite the parents over for Thanksgiving. Because they're not picking which parents come in.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Right. And family celebrations turn into family traumas.
Carol Hughes:
And what Bruce was just talking about, we teach parents a solution to this is for them to create their own divorce story we call it. And we help them with that if they need help is, once you fell in love, once you have these children, what do you want going forward for your children, your grandchildren, whomever that may be, and give them permission to have as Bruce was just talking about not take sides. What do you want the community members to do? Because people tend to line up, they think of divorce as war.
Carol Hughes:
So we help them create their own divorce story. And then they share that with their adult children, grandchildren, if they're old enough to understand, friends, family members, extended family, community members, church, synagogues, whatever it may be.
Pete Wright:
I want to pivot just a little bit and talk about the legal process. And because I know the issues that we have with the evolving technology and evolving systems and things that cause a natural fear for my parents and their generation. And they struggle with things like new phones and all that kind of stuff. And it becomes in our family a fun way to laugh at my dad pushing buttons too hard. But what I also know is that going into the legal system and engaging the legal process to embark on separation is terrifying for people of any generation.
Pete Wright:
I wonder if you have thoughts and all three of you really, thoughts on how the fear, uncertainty and doubt that comes with embarking on the legal journey is different for those in this generation?
Seth Nelson:
So from my perspective on that Pete is, the closer you get to retirement or if you are in retirement, it feels like you're giving half your stuff away and you will never have time to rebuild it.
Pete Wright:
So it's more about just the loss of acquisition?
Seth Nelson:
Well, it's not the loss of acquisition, that's what happens, but it's the fear of not having enough funds to live that the way that you expect to in retirement. Okay. If you are getting divorced at 35 or 40, and you have to give away half of your net worth at that time, whatever it may be, you're going to have to think to yourself, "I've got 25 years to rebuild it." If you're getting divorced at 60, you don't have 25 years to rebuild it. That's a big cloud over that divorce process. And what happens is, and this is just a hypothetical, you have a guy that owned a business and built that business. And now he's like, "It's mine." Like that's his identity is the business owner.
Seth Nelson:
And now you're like, "Well, we have to value your business." And she's entitled to half of that value. And it's, well, she didn't build it. She didn't do that. Like you forget about the child rear and you forget... the kids have been now in the house for 10 years. She never went back to work and I'm making these sayings-
Pete Wright:
Well, and you're getting a divorce. And all of a sudden that makes you naturally less sympathetic to any of the other emotional connective tissue that you once had.
Seth Nelson:
Right. But I view those types of cases almost as financial planning cases. And let's look at your interest to see what we can do in the law to try to meet those interests. And I am always getting financial planners, wealth managers, people that are good with budgets to get involved early, because all I can do in the law is tell you what I can get you. I can't tell you what it's going to do for you. Five, 10, 15 years down the road.
Seth Nelson:
And part of it to what Bruce and Carol speak to is, "Well, I wanted to leave money for my kids." Or "We were paying for private school for the grandkids. What's going to happen with that? Do I have to tell them, no, I need money now?" Or the worst one you tell the grandkids, "I can't pay for your kids." You tell your kids, "I can't pay for the grandkids private school or for their trip, summer trip we always do, because I have to pay alimony to you mom."
Carol Hughes:
Which can lead immediately to that battle lines being drawn. Sorry, let's say the mom is that person that you were just describing Seth, who maybe didn't work outside the home, or did, the majority of mothers in the US are working outside the home now and have been for several decades. But you can see how, if that mother or father feels like they're getting a raw deal, the natural thing to do is go to the adult children and bag on that other parent, which creates a lot of chaos and trauma, as we said a minute ago in the family.
Pete Wright:
Well, that's really the root of the question, Bruce, to the point that, how do you counsel those going through this divorce through the grief process that comes from the battle lines and the fear of the process and that loss?
Bruce Fredenburg:
Fred Luskin, he runs the forgiveness project at Stanford University for the last 25, 30 years. And in a talk we heard one time, he defined one of the purposes of adrenaline when people get in fear and the hyper-adrenalized state, one of the purposes of adrenaline is to force you to look at a problem. And it does it by making you feel horrible. So when people get afraid enough and they generate that hyper-adrenalized state, it's virtually impossible to generate feeling of compassion or generosity or caring or anything. They're locked into the fight or flight freeze response.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And so it can be really important to be able to teach them ways to get out of that, that mindset. And one way to get them to be thinking about other things that moves the neurons are firing less than the back of the brain and more in the top, in the front that can actually generate better ideas. And so, one of the things I find in the structure of people who've done that what was formerly traditional marriage, one person worked outside the home, one person raised the kids. When they did that, they did it because they're making sacrifices.
Bruce Fredenburg:
One will never get that earning capacity back. And the other ones missed out on a really deep relationship with the kids compared to... they can't go back to the sixth grade and see the play. They just weren't there. And so they both made sacrifices with the idea they were sacrificing for the family, for the unit. And now here they are, they've made their sacrifices and they're not getting the fruits of thoughts. One gets the relationship with the kids generally, and the other, their lever of control is the money. And so I've often started getting them to buy into the concept that the real wealth of your family is your children.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And I think most people who are parents feel that. So that elevates the status of the person who's the lower earner, because usually it's a shame, but it can be a heat. They have the bridge, the tools to help the other parent get the better relationship with the children going forward, that they say they want, and they're resentful of not having. And the one who's got the opportunity to control the lever of money can help reduce the agony of being poor for the other person.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And so by getting them to buy into that, wouldn't it be a shame if you both didn't get to reap the fruits of your sacrifice because the other person's got the control?
Seth Nelson:
And Bruce, not to throw a fly in the ointment, but then there's a new relationship that comes in.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Yes, there is.
Seth Nelson:
And how does that impact it? And especially if that relationship has a large degree in separation in age, at, or below your children's ages?
Bruce Fredenburg:
Well, in the process that we work in usually, they're usually non-adversarial processes. And in the attorneys we work with now in many cases, will want a neutral child specialist, even with adult children. Because a neutral child specialist who becomes the voice of the children, they don't enter the meetings, but can interview them, find out, can really find out about the hidden agendas, the relationships, what's going on in the family, because none of the other divorce professionals are ever going to meet the only people that know what it was like to grow up in that family and what's going on, and how that's going to affect.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And so with that information that can then be given to the parents with the permission of the adult children, even the person with the new relationship can start to see the cost that, that could likely mean for them if they want to play hardball and positional negotiation. And so, that at least it's a toehold somewhere.
Pete Wright:
It's extraordinarily complex, right? And I think that's the thing that dealing with folks in this age bracket, getting a divorce, the ripples felt throughout the family institution are significant. And I think that to me feels like the echoes of underserved ness in the divorce process. You've got people coming into you and they say, "Okay, we're thinking about dissolving our marriage, give us the 8:00 AM Monday morning pitch." What do they need to be aware of?
Carol Hughes:
One of my favorite questions to ask them is, what is the legacy that you want to leave your children, minor and adult children from this period of time in their lives? Some people get it right away, others say, "Well, what do you mean?" So imagine five or 10 years down the road, what do you want your children telling their best friends, their spouse, whatever, whomever, what do you want them to say about this time in their lives when you're going through a divorce? So I try to elicit from them-
Seth Nelson:
The legacy.
Carol Hughes:
Their highest aspiration. Hopefully, and most parents, I tell them don't want their kids to be harmed. Divorce is upsetting to all children in some way or another. So what do you want to do about it? I'm not telling them not to divorce, but let's be preventative here. That's the number one sentence I usually say.
Bruce Fredenburg:
One of the... I forget who came up with this description, but I really like it that we approach divorce for families is not a battle to be won, but a problem to be solved.
Seth Nelson:
We say that all the time, I appreciate that Bruce. I'm a problem solver. And if we can't resolve the problem, then the judge is going to. And it's not necessarily going to work out the way that you want. No one gets everything they want. I am with you 1005. You are preaching to the choir with that statement.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And it is systems that has winners and losers means some of those losers are going to be members of your family. If you guys don't tone this down, and that can strike a note for people too. Because it is winners and losers. If you just keep going that way.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I've had a judge on the bench when we're at a pretrial conference, which is a meeting with the judge, just to make sure procedurally everything's on track. So we can have a clean, crisp, hopefully efficient trial, but it might be 30, 60 days out. And the judge might be sending us back to mediation and say, "You guys are arguing about money. And I can tell you the one thing, the only people that are really going to win in these cases are your lawyers. Because they're going to get paid. And you're arguing about dividing up this pie that is this big. And by the time you get through trial, when I go to divide it, it's going to be this big because all that other pie was eaten by those lower fees."
Seth Nelson:
So the judges will look right at us and say, "No disrespect attorneys. You've got two very good lawyers here, they're going to be the winners here." And I think there's a lot to that statement. Especially if you can narrow the issues, I advise, I know other great lawyers advise their clients. It is better to pay more or accept less and keep a bigger piece of that pie than giving it to the lawyers. Let's solve the problem and let's move on.
Pete Wright:
Lessons learned.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And Pete, to your earlier question, one of the things, and I know this is a lot harder to do in litigation, especially if the person on the other side isn't interested in dampening it down. But since we work mainly in non-adversarial processes, we have opportunities to talk to both of the people. And one of the things we do is get them to create a statement of their highest and best intentions for this divorce. Why did you produce this process? As Carol said, what do you want for your legacy to be? And most people in their statement if they have kids have something in there about wanting to spare the kids, the worst aspects, or keep her ongoing relationship with the kids.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And they've declared, they don't want to hurt the kids. Then they're hurt, they're angry. And they start doing things to hurt the kids. It's a good callback. Like how does making that decision a lineup with your intention to not hurt the kids? And that can be a good callback during the divorce. You're not admonishing them. You're not shaming or blaming. You're just reminding them what they asked you to deliver. And so you get a sense, this isn't going to deliver that. So explain that to me? And then can [crosstalk 00:40:18].
Seth Nelson:
It feels like it.
Pete Wright:
The attorneys need poster board and a Sharpie, and just remember the kids and just hold it up occasionally. In court, in mediation, whatever. This has been fantastic. Insightful, illuminating, thank you both so much for doing this. I pitch the book, but I assume people can find it where books are sold. It's fantastic. Any other resources where can we find you and your work that you would like to pitch?
Carol Hughes:
Sure. Well, book is available on Amazon, of course, in Kindle and audio through Audible and also hardback and through the publisher's website in an ebook and hardback. And the publisher's Rowman & Littlefield. Why don't you give the title Bruce?
Bruce Fredenburg:
Well, it's Home Will Never Be the Same Again: A Guide for Adult Children of the Gray Divorce.
Carol Hughes:
Right. I have two websites. My divorce website is divorcepeacemaking.com. And my therapy website is drcarolhughes.com.
Bruce Fredenburg:
And my therapy website is under reconstruction. So my divorce website is orangecountydivorcecoach.com. And I can also be found at the, Find a Professionals under Collaborative Divorce Solutions Orange County, CDSOC.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. We'll put links to all those in the show notes and definitely check out the book, Home Will Never Be the Same Again: A Guide for Adult Children of Gray Divorce. I'm an Audible fan. So I checked that out and just because we're here, if you want to listen to the book for free, Audible can throw you one. And we'd love to enable that. So head over to audibletrial.com/toaster, and you will be able to sign up, search the Audible catalog for Home Will Never Be the Same Again. And you can hear the fantastic Colleen Marlowe read the book to you.
Pete Wright:
You keep the book for free for ever and ever, even if you decide not to stick with the service, but I think you're going to stick with 180,000 titles. It's a fantastic service. I've been a member for 20 years. So absolutely check it out, stick it out. You're going to love it. Carol. Bruce, thank you so much for your time today.
Seth Nelson:
Thanks for joining us.
Pete Wright:
Thank you, both.
Bruce Fredenburg:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
On behalf of Carol, Bruce and the lovely and talented Seth Nelson I'm Pete Wright, we'll catch you next time right here on, How to Split a Toaster: A divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 5:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney, licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
This transcript was exported on Apr 03, 2021 - view latest version here.
toaster_211 (Completed 04/01/21)
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