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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to From Here Forward, your favorite UBC Podcast Network podcast. How's it going on the West Coast, Jeevan?
[00:00:09] Jeevan Sangha: It's going well. We're in that sweet spot of Vancouver weather where it's just so nice outside, so I've been trying to make the most of it. How's the East Coast?
[00:00:17] Carol Eugene Park: I love that for you. Um, you know, I am navigating the weird limbo of being a transplant in my home province. It's a little weird going to government offices and being like, hey, I'm a BC resident trying to be an Ontario resident, even though I literally grew up here up until very recently. But speaking of East Coast, West Coast, our guest is from BC, but she's been working and living in the Big Apple, aka The City.
[00:00:44] Jeevan Sangha: And that was very millennial of you.
[00:00:47] Carol Eugene Park: I know. But I just don't like the Gen Z term for it, you know, work island. It makes sense, but it just doesn't have the zhuzh, you know what I mean?
[00:00:56] Jeevan Sangha: Or, and hear me out, crazy idea, you could just call it New York City, like the rest of us.
[00:01:01] Carol Eugene Park: Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha. Anyway, let us introduce our wonderful, amazing guest, why don't we?
[00:01:08] Jeevan Sangha: Today's guest is Melanie Ash, who is currently the Deputy Chief of the Affirmative Litigation Division at the New York City Law Department.
[00:01:15] Carol Eugene Park: And we learned a lot about her expertise in racial equity and the practice of law, and everything she learned in her career path since she graduated from UBC in 96, A. K. A. my birth year. A. K. A. to this year is my champagne year. We hope you enjoy!
[00:01:32] Melanie Ash: My name is Melanie Ash. I am currently the Deputy Chief of the Affirmative Litigation Division at the New York City Law Department.
[00:01:41] Jeevan Sangha: Great, and can you tell us a bit about your time studying law in Canada and, I mean, after graduating from UBC, what drew you to New York and why'd you stay?
[00:01:51] Melanie Ash: Sure, um, okay, so I was at UBC, um, between, well, going back a lot of years right now. 1993 and 1996, graduated in 1996. Yeah, I had done my undergraduate degree in Ottawa, although I'm from British Columbia originally. I had gone out there to do, um, my degree, my first degree, um, because I was a PAGE in the House of Commons. I don't know if you're familiar with that program, but, um, you have to study in Ottawa. So I moved from BC out to Ottawa and I was excited to come back to BC for law school. It was nice. I'd never lived that far away. I'd never even been that far away from BC. So I'm a definitely a BC girl. Although it wouldn't seem like it ‘cause I live in New York, but I'm a BC girl at heart.
[00:02:36] And, um, so I was excited to come back. I really enjoyed that first year. Everyone says like law school, the first year of law school is, you know, devastating. It's difficult. It's challenging. It was challenging, but I also really enjoyed, it was very intellectually stimulating. And as I was saying this to someone the other day, I don't know if it, if Law and Order started on TV when I was in law school or if it just, that's when I first discovered it.
[00:03:00] I think it was, maybe it actually started. We'd have to go back and check the dates. But I remember after days of class, so I'd have my criminal law class and I'd go back to the dorms, I, well, I lived, I had a good friend who lived in the dorm, whatever the tall one is. My memory for this is not very good. He lived in the dorm, right? The big tall one that was right behind the law school. We'd go back there and watch Law and Order. And they were actually studying, they were covering the same topics that we were studying. It felt like it was really real, like this is real stuff and Hollywood is, you know, it's, you know, I was excited, it just was invigorating.
[00:03:33] So yeah, I was, I enjoyed my time. Obviously, there were challenges, any number of things. For example, I think in my class, I was the only black person. So in a class of two hundred and, a hundred and eighty students, I think it was. That was challenging and just being so much the only one, um, but I'm, kind of used to that over the course of my years, um, in academia and things like that.
[00:03:58] Law was sort of my, um, the right career for me. I have a lot of friends who law school was the introduction to the fact that law was not the career for them. They immediately knew that they were not enjoying it. But for me, I was like, yep, this is exactly where I'm meant to be. I'm as a student of history and I enjoyed, and studying, um, the way in which law was used as a tool for social justice, um, in particular in the U.S., uh, up to that point. So, you know, Brown versus Board of Education, kind of civil rights type cases. So that was one of the things that led me to law school. And in studying at UBC, they didn't offer some of the classes that I, uh, was hoping to take.
[00:04:37] And I kind of thought maybe I could be a professor. So I sort of was toying with the idea of being a professor. And I needed to do a graduate degree, so I ended up in New York because I came to Columbia University to do a graduate degree in law. And it was supposed to be two years and I was going to be back, heading back to Canada after my two-year program. I just, I fell in love with this city. I love New York City. And I knew after the first year, like summer of the first year, I knew that I wasn't going to be ready to leave after two years. The program that I was in, part of it was that I was teaching. It was a sort of a, it was called an associate in law, and what that meant was that I was, at the same time that I was studying, I was also teaching, um, research and writing to the first-year students who were doing the JD program at Columbia.
[00:05:20] And I liked teaching, I liked interacting with the students, but I also, felt like it was a little bit isolated. You know, you're living on the university, and you're not engaged with sort of the real world of legal practice. And I'd only done at this point, um, I think six months total of practice. I had gone to clerk, I had done my articling in BC, um, and I had done about six months of practice while I waited to go to the graduate program. And I felt like I hadn't really given practice, uh, a really fair shot, and that I was second guessing my, um, intentions of going to teach.
[00:05:56] I thought, no, I don't know if I really want to teach. I actually think I might want to practice. The thing about practice I liked was the problem solving for your clients. And sort of being able to, I guess, impact things that, um, you know, the sort of social justice mission that I had in mind when I first went to law school. It felt to me like maybe that would be, I could actually only achieve that or maybe better achieve that if I was practicing.
[00:06:20] So, I just flipped my, um, flipped my switch and I went back to, you know, looking for a job. And I wanted to stay in New York for at least a little while longer. I didn't really know how long, but, uh, so I looked for a job in New York and I wrote the New York bar and yeah, the rest is history.
[00:06:39] Carol Eugene Park: How did UBC in your time, you know, as a student, how did that affect your work, um, and just your general interests and kind of the skill sets that you have now, if at all?
[00:06:52] Melanie Ash: Well, I had a couple of professors who I really, I just really found to be, um, incredibly, I guess, captivating. I really enjoyed everything I learned from them. They really, um, spoke to me in terms of what they taught and the content and the way in which they were thinking about some of the same social justice issues that I was thinking about, maybe from a different perspective.
[00:07:15] I felt like I learned that those tools of critical thinking in part through those professors and that was sort of something I wanted to continue to explore in the U.S. So I, you know, I had a, I studied constitutional law with Professor Joel Bakan, who you may have heard of, um, but he's, you know, a really big leading light in the area and has done, has written, um, and done a documentaries and like he's, he's really heralded, um, but he's an excellent professor and he got me excited about what I could do with um, constitutional law and applying it to some of the sort of problems, progressive causes and things like that.
[00:07:53] I studied property law with a professor named Marlee Kline, who was kind of a mentor to me. Again, it was, she sort of came at it with a social justice and a poverty and a aboriginal law perspective. I mean, she just really brought a lot of interesting ideas, a feminist perspective. I think those two professors, as well as at the time there was a professor named Nitya Iyer, who she's actually now, uh, Supreme Court Justice in British Columbia. Um, but she was a professor at UBC when I was there.
[00:08:20] Similarly, she had done some of the innovative thinking around race and the law in Canada at the time. There was not a lot of thinking, a lot of, not a lot of writing about those issues. So Nitya and Marlee had both done some writing in that space and those were issues that I was interested in. And, you know, how I ended up choosing Columbia was in part because, um, at the time, and I think probably maybe even still now, it had the most highly regarded faculty on critical race theory, which was what I wanted to study. So I ended up applying to a couple of schools and deciding that Columbia was the right one for, because of the faculty they had focused on critical race theory as well as this, the teaching program that I was going to be able to do.
[00:09:01] Jeevan Sangha: Can you tell us about being seconded to work as general counsel to the New York City Racial Justice Commission? What were your biggest challenges in that capacity and what were your biggest accomplishments?
[00:09:12] Melanie Ash: It was 2021. It was probably March or April. Um, I was asked to, would I consider taking on this role as general counsel of this newly created racial, or was actually in the process of being created, Racial Justice Commission.
[00:09:26] First of its kind in the nation. So I think that gives you a hint as to one of the challenges was just, it'd never been done before. There had been several, plenty of charter revision commissions, which is basically a body that has a legislative power in New York and in many other places as well. But in New York City, the New York City charter is kind of like the city's constitution, and there's a few ways that it can be revised.
[00:09:50] One of those is through a charter revision commission, and where a group of people, and the commission itself operates independent from city government. But has the power to propose changes to the charter, which are then put back to the voters of the city through a referendum, and if they're adopted, they become, the changes are, go into effect. So it's a way to change the city's constitution.
[00:10:13] And then what was unique about this particular charter revision commission was that it was given a mandate to focus on racial justice. Um, this was in the sort of aftermath of George Floyd's murder and the sort of reckoning that was going on in New York and around this country and really around the world, I think around racial justice issues. So the mayor wanted to, struck this commission with the goal of trying to explore and uproot racial injustice and in city government because the charter among other things that it has in it, it sets the structure for New York City's government. So it was a way to further that conversation or to at least apply a lens of racial justice to the New York City's government and say, are we operating in a way that furthers or undermines racial justice? And how do we switch from one to the other or from undermining, potentially to furthering racial justice?
[00:11:04] So a body of people was struck to form the Racial Justice Commission. It was a moment that was very challenging in the country's history, I think, with the George Floyd murder and sort of the realization or the acknowledgement of a lot of fundamental problems that continue to exist.
[00:11:24] I think the other challenge was really, in some ways, logistical, and that was we were doing this in the middle of a pandemic. Um, there are a lot of rules about how government operates, how these charter commission, commissions operate, and they are subject to open meetings law, which means they have to meet in person, and they have to meet, um, in a way that's open to the public to attend and watch. And doing that in the middle of a pandemic when nobody is allowed to be, when you're supposed to be socially distant and you're not supposed to be in the same room with each other. And we also, you know, obviously we wanted, and one of the things that charter revision commissions really focus on is letting the people have a voice. So the practice is usually to go out into the community and hold hearings and have meetings and trying to do that in a way that respected everybody's concerns about interacting in person.
[00:12:15] Um, so the logistical stuff was extraordinarily challenging, trying to figure out how would we do public meetings and hearings when people would want to come, and would they want to come, and how would we get their input if we couldn't get people to come because of the, because of COVID. You know, did the law even allow us to hold meetings in public because of that? I mean, there was just a lot of really challenging issues around that piece.
[00:12:37] But then the topic itself is challenging, and at the same time that I think New York City was leading the way, let's say, in this space, because it was the first of its kind in the country, nobody had done this type of a commission before. There was also a backlash kind of going in some parts of the country where they were, there were people objecting to and kind trying to roll back, if I could say it that way, some of the gains that have been made in this, around racial justice. There was a moment when everybody was really kind of engaged in saying, yes, we want to do better. And then there was sort of a backlash to it from people saying, well, I don't know, like banning books. And trying to outlaw critical race theory.
[00:13:13] I mean, it was, you know, so there was, these things were happening at the same time and as a commission, we knew that our, um, we felt confident because this was a new, you know, I was staff, I was, um, general counsel. But there were commissioners who were very active, experienced, um, community activists, and academics, and lawyers, and people with a religious background.
[00:13:35] We also knew we had to put this to voters, and so you really want to make sure you're capturing what voters want, and portraying that to them, and giving that to them on the ballot. I think in Minneapolis, which is where George Floyd actually was murdered, they had attempted to make some changes to their government structure that were, that had to go in front of the voters and it was rejected by the voters.
[00:13:54] So we were cognizant of the fact that, you know, a group of thirteen people or eleven people on their own without community input would not necessarily be reflecting what the community wants and it could be rejected by the voters. The other piece that I didn't really speak to but is the, the general counsel role was uniquely important in a commission because you're trying to rewrite laws.
[00:14:15] So you have to first of all, make sure what you're changing, um, you actually have the power to change it, that it's within the jurisdiction of that government. So the question here would be, is this something a local government even has the power to do? You know, how would we enact it? What would the legislation that enacts it have to look like? So it was like drafting legislation. It was researching and making sure that these things would be constitutional. It was, you know, it was, there was a lot of legal aspects to the work that were challenging for me as, um, head lawyer. So when the commission would say, we'd like to do X or we'd like to do Y, you know, the question becomes, can we legally do that? How would it be accomplished? What would it look like? What would the language have to look like? You know, where would you put the commas in the legislation?
[00:14:56] It was like, that level of, so it was big picture, but it was really, the team was amazing. The commissioners themselves were amazing. The actual staff that were working with me in all the different roles, they were all excellent. And so it was actually a really exhilarating experience, but exhausting. Then we took everything to the voters in a ballot questions. So that was another piece that we then had to do an election campaign.
[00:15:18] But the way in which charter revision works is you can't advocate for your proposals. You have to just educate the public and let them make up their own mind. So as the lawyer, I had to make sure that everything we were doing did not amount to advocacy for the next eight months of that election, run up to the election. And that included all of the ad campaigns and posters and every, you know, speech we gave. Every testimony to city council.
[00:15:43] Carol Eugene Park: So you touched upon the challenges, but is there anything that you were like really happy that you were able to do, like certain accomplishments or even just skill sets or just moments for yourself from that experience?
[00:15:55] Melanie Ash: The work felt really big, the accomplishment of, felt really big. What we managed to, um, what the voters, you know, there was something like almost seventy percent yes vote on the all the proposals. So that's a pretty big, um, mandate. That was a pretty big, um, success. I don't know, I just felt gratitude that we had been able to translate what people told us in the, when they came to the body and made their submissions and suggested we do things, that they felt we had articulated changes that reflected what they wanted. That felt really gratifying.
[00:16:26] The changes themselves, I think, have the potential to be really transformative. So we were excited about that. One of the changes was, um, to add a preamble to the charter, which reflected sort of the values that the city wanted their government to embrace and to act upon. Values of racial equity and, um, acknowledging past harms, reconciling, and sort of, um, bringing people together in pursuit of a common future. Some of the Asian community that came to appear before the commission, they often, um, articulated a sense of not being seen as really a part of the, of the city sort of, you know, there's oftentimes there's a racial dichotomy that's, you know, people are seeing, things are seen in black and white, meaning black citizens and white citizens, or black people and white people and not, and there's, and the sort of nuances of the way in which people, racialized people exist in the country aren't always articulated.
[00:17:29] And I think they said, you know, we're often seen as being foreigners and we're here, we've been in the city as long as so many people. I mean, we've been here for a hundred, you know, a hundred plus years or whatever. And I think the way in which the, um, the preamble was sort of, which, we see it treated as a sort of a vision statement, um, reflected that their history and their value to the city and to the development of the city and how everybody had contributed.
[00:17:57] I think for some people that was really emotional to them. They've actually seen their contributions to New York City written into the constitution. You know, these people have contributed in this way. There was a, you know, there was a land acknowledgement with, in relation to the Lenape people who are the original inhabitants of New York City and the surrounding areas, which had never been done before. And writing that into the constitution felt like, you know, important acknowledgments of the value of all this history and the struggle that led the city to be the way it is. And, um, so that was, I think that was felt really good. Um, and, and that it's a vision statement, but it's also a guiding statement for city government.
[00:18:39] So, in contrast to some of the backlash you see in other cities, it was a pretty bold statement and a pretty clear statement that this New York City does not ascribe to that. And that New York City wants to be a racially diverse, rich, um, you know, city full of, with the values, the history and that acknowledges and celebrates people, um, you know, of all races, orientations, um, you know, religions.
[00:19:10] Jeevan Sangha: You talked about sort of those early days in law school and being inspired by these like landmark cases when it comes to like racial equity and having those things reflected in the law. Um, in through your work, in what ways have you seen the limitations of the law when it comes to the rights and protections of marginalized communities? And how does that drive your work going forward, whether that's through the commission or any additional work that you've done?
[00:19:35] Melanie Ash: I think right now we're seeing that, um, the Supreme Court is, has ruled on a few things that, in a ways that, um, have really set back, uh, some of the principles that I articulated. You know, for example, overturning affirmative action, um, race conscious, race based, um, admissions policies in higher education. So that sort of, those kinds of decisions really, um, show how difficult it can be to achieve some of these goals in light of the way in which the law is moving.
[00:20:12] I think it means the end result is that sometimes you have to be more creative in how you approach the issues. You have to come up with new strategies, legal strategies around, um, that fit within the current structure of the law. There's a real difference and as a Canadian who's studied in Canada, I really see the real, really significant differences. And, uh, and affirmative action is just one really massive example. But also like a Roe versus Wade, um, abortion rights, uh, reproductive freedoms type case in the U.S. versus the way the law is in Canada.
[00:20:47] So I think, um, as someone who's familiar with both of those, I have a really interesting lens that I can see what, how the two countries have diverged in their paths. Sometimes it can be disheartening trying to use the law for social justice and seeing decisions come down that really disrupt all, and you have to really just go back to the well and start over again in terms of thinking about how do we think about these issues. How can we, you know, use the laws that currently exist, um, and pursue these issues. It's challenging.
[00:21:21] It means people have to go back to the drawing board a little bit and think about what does the law say and how do we fit our arguments with that or to either expand the law or to reframe the arguments so that they still are able to be, to achieve the goal that you want to achieve.
[00:21:36] Carol Eugene Park: So you mentioned that you love New York. Do you have any plans of returning to Canada and potentially expanding your work in racial justice here, um, or not?
[00:21:48] Melanie Ash: I still maintain it that, you know, the right opportunity, anything is possible. You know, I, um, it's interesting because I, you know, about ten or twelve years ago, I came back to Canada and I worked in Canada for four years. And then I went back to New York. Um, and one of the reasons was that I struggled to find the opportunities and the ways to do the type of work that I was really, had been really engaged in here, in Canada. Like it, it just didn't exist in, the way that I was familiar with it. And so I, you know, I do sort of think about, is there, are there ways to, to expand that type of work.
[00:22:31] I work for a city, I work in the city government. There's something, you know, the United States is way more litigious than Canada. Um, and I think that in part that's reflected in, that's the reason or explains the size of the office that I work in with a tremendously large, uh, staff of lawyers working on these issues. It just doesn't exist like that in Canada, so it's, I struggled to try to find the right place to do the work that I was interested in. You know, if that should develop or if I should find a way, I definitely am open to it. I do still consider, I consider myself to be, both New York and Van, and Vancouver to be home.
[00:23:09] I'm never going to say never, and I don't write it off. And I definitely do think about opportunities and talk to friends and people who are living and working there about, you know, what's going on and whether there's, you know, maybe now I should be turning back to teaching and after I've had all that experience and maybe I could teach in Canada. I mean, I definitely think about all those things. No, no concrete plans right now, but I definitely sort of have it as a little in the back of my mind keeping an eye open for the right possible opportunity.
[00:23:35] Jeevan Sangha: For young people who are interested in racial justice and equity work, what advice, um, would you have to encourage them to pursue this kind of work, but also any words of wisdom when it comes to the taxing nature of this work?
[00:23:51] Melanie Ash: I would really make a plea for, you know, bringing social justice principles into your advocacy work and into the work that you do. I mean, I'm, I work in the law, so that's the law, the area that I really speak about, that I know the most. But I do think there's, um, there's a lot of need in Canada to, um, to bring those social justice advocacy principles into your legal practice.
[00:24:18] And I think, you know, and here it often happens in the way of pro bono where people do, law firms do work for free. I think there's a lot of opportunities to, and I would encourage people to look for opportunities to do social justice work, legal work. I spoke at University of Calgary this past year and I said, you know, it doesn't have to be the first thing you do.
[00:24:38] You know, you could find ways to bring it into your work, whether it's in the arguments that you make, um, in doing pro bono work and seeking out jobs, working for non-profit organizations or working in government. I think there's a lot of spaces, but I do think it's important, um, to bring those voices to, into legal, the development of the law that may not always have had a place. Obviously, it's also, it can be disheartening at times. It can be exhausting.
[00:25:05] So I think the biggest thing that I think a lot of people are realizing is the need for self-care, the need for kind of, to kind of take care of yourself and to acknowledge that the cost that some of the work that you do might take on your own spirit and on your own kind of emotions and mental health. While you're struggling and while you're engaged in the struggle to also take time for joy and to find ways to express that and find ways to, you know, find community in the work that you're doing, because I think when you're in that work together, there's a community, there's a sense of community that you can have with other people doing social justice work that is really rewarding and fulfilling and soul enriching, I guess. I think if you're committed to social justice, then it's a great field to be in, and there's a lot of work to be done, and there's a lot of brilliant people doing it, and to try to find your space where you can, you know, bring your vision to the practice of law.
[00:26:00] Carol Eugene Park: Similar thread, um, having experienced many things, lots of accomplishments and kind of everything you now know, what would you kind of tell your young, your younger self who might have been a bit more, what's the word, um, enthusiastic about life and, um, not as, uh, discouraged at times? What would you kind of offer?
[00:26:22] Melanie Ash: I guess what I would say, my younger self was so eager to, get right into that practice that I, you know, I went straight through. I didn't take any time off. I didn't, I just went from undergrad straight into law school, straight into practice or straight into the next, I guess, step, which was a graduate degree. And then straight into practice, I would have perhaps taken a little more time and tried to find opportunities to, you know, maybe do a, what is it? A travel year that people like to do. I never did anything like that. So I think if there's one thing it's that the work is always going to be waiting for you.
[00:26:52] And so I would encourage people to really, um, while you have that freedom to kind of use that freedom and explore a little bit. I think it obviously, and aside from just taking a break and, um, it also, I think perspectives from other people around the world are valuable. You can be in living in your little silo and only all you see and know is, you know, what you see and know in your daily life.
[00:27:16] And I think, I do think there's a real value to, um, expanding your horizons in terms of seeing how other people live, understanding other legal issues, puts things in perspective sometimes to see what other people are going through and how their lives are different than yours. And how, you know, you may have, I mean, I think hopefully lawyers recognize they have a tremendous amount of privilege, even lawyers of all types, um, whether they're, you know, people who in a societal way, maybe they would belong to a group that has been disenfranchised or disadvantaged in some way. But when you have the capacity and ability to go to law school and to work as a lawyer, there's a lot of privilege that you do have. I think people will see that more once they've kind of expanded their horizons and seen what else is going on. And what other people are dealing with.
[00:27:59] I do feel like young people bring an energy and there's, that's a good thing. You know, as people, you know, say my generation, Gen X or whatever, are kind of getting beaten down, I think you need that influx of new energy from the next generation, um, because they're the ones who are going to push the rock forward that next little bit. You know, I think you need, as different groups tire and they've done their work. That's the whole point and, you know, at least in, in the civil rights movement, it's really around standing on the shoulders of the ones who went before you. So the people who were the founders or the original leaders in this space, at some point they either, you know, either tire or they're just, they age out of it. They can't continue to do the work. They're retired. They're, they pass on and the goal would be that you've left it better than you, you came to it. So that the every next generation would have, would be starting at a better place and could carry it farther forward.
[00:28:54] So, I mean, I don't think I would try to tell myself not to have that exuberance and passion and kind of naive, naivete or whatever. I think that's, you need that because if everybody's coming in cynical, then really there's no hope for it. You have to have people coming in, and I'm a firm believer that at some point, you know, you need to step back and let the next generation lead. You can't, otherwise, you know, you're not going to get as far as you could because they're coming into it not having necessarily seen the worst parts and they're coming in. But they can still see the vast need for improvement in the current situation and whereas when you came into it when it was so much worse, you might not, you might think we've already accomplished it and what are you talking about we need to do more. But I think when someone new comes in, not having ever lived with the, you know, the old way. That might have been really particularly harmful and whatever, however you want to describe it. They come in rightfully looking to push the envelope even further. And so you probably get further than if you just have someone who has lived through all of it and sort of, you know, let's be grateful for how far we've come.
[00:29:57] You know, they're coming and saying, what are you talking about? We haven't come that far. Like, what are you talking about? This is not great. This is not acceptable. And they push it to the next level. So I think that's a good thing. So I would encourage you to come in with all your, exuberance and naivete and, you know, obviously learn from the past, listen to, I guess, the elders, if you want to say it that way, I don't like to call myself that, but yeah, listen to where people have been and make, and benefit from their experience, but also don't let it limit your vision or what could be in the future.
[00:30:26] Carol Eugene Park: Great, amazing. Um, did you have anything that you wanted to add that we didn't ask you about?
[00:30:31] Melanie Ash: Hmm, I mean, I guess I would just, one thing I would say that I think is. You can see the transformations that have been happening and celebrate them and but yet not be satisfied. You know, I mentioned I was the only black student in my year at UBC. That was challenging for many reasons.
[00:30:47] But I think it's a testament to how far we've come that the current UBC law school, they have something like, I don't know, I want to say fifteen, twenty, twenty-five black students a year. I mean, they really have, they have, they've taken up that challenge. There's been, and partly because there's been scholarships that have been developed by people who were graduated around my age or even before.
[00:31:09] Kind of acknowledging the need to diversify the legal profession. It's a seat of so much power and it wields so much power in the world. Whether, you know, you look at the people who sit in Parliament and usually like two thirds to three quarters of them are lawyers. I mean, it's a space where a lot of powerful, a lot of societal rules are developed by those people and diversifying them is important.
[00:31:33] It's not, you know, one group should not hold all the power. Um, and so I think I say that it's, I'm, it inspires me to see the change that that's been, that's happened within the legal profession from that perspective. Obviously there's still a tremendous amount of work because, you know, as you get up in the years of practice, the numbers of women, the numbers of people of color are dismal.
[00:31:56] A lot of times, um, number of women partners, number of people of color who are partners in firms is really low, you know, so there's a ton of work to be done. But when I was one of, you know, one of two, I wish I could remember this. Maybe you'll be able to, you'll be able to put a voiceover afterwards. There were actually this many students. I was one of, I guess, one eighty or was it two hundred or something like that? Two eight to two twenty, two fifty, something like that in my year. And now the numbers multiplied exponentially because there's been a real, uh, intentional commitment to diversify the profession. And so UBC has set up, um, you know, admissions streams for, to encourage Black and Indigenous students. And, you know, I think you're seeing the benefit of that. So I guess I would just, even though I'm cynical and now been working at it for so long time, I would also still say I'm hopeful because I I've seen that change. And in only if, you know, twenty some, twenty some years, um, with intentional commitment to diversify, there's been a dramatic improvement in the number.
[00:33:00] And it makes a real difference because if you don't see yourself reflected in the profession, then you don't think you have, there's a place for you there. You don't think it's for you. You, um, if it's, you don't know someone who's a lawyer in your family or a family friend, you might think it's not for me, I can't do it. But I think when you see twenty-five, thirty, fifty, sixty black students, that's diversifying the profession. That means that no one of those students has to kind of live it alone and kind of struggle with the burdens of being one of, you know, the only one, the first of this one, the first of that, the first in that, in this class, the first in that class.
[00:33:36] And that matters because I think it's hard. It's a lonely job. It's lonely to be the first and the only and to always be it in every space that you go into is really, really challenging. Um, I much prefer seeing people be able to form community and support each other through the process, which is what they are doing at law schools these days.
[00:33:56] And so, yeah, that's a huge improvement. And so I would just kind of give kudos to UBC for making the, those commitments. So I think it's, was done very intentionally and with a lot of, you know, encouragement and demands and, you know, advocacy from black students themselves and black lawyers, however it was accomplished, it's being accomplished.
[00:34:21] And so for me, that's, um, something that I would like to commend and, and encourage that, you know, let's not stop now. Let's keep doing that because I think just one or two classes of one student will change everything immediately. So you need to, there needs to be a continued kind of commitment to that diversification and yeah, so I would encourage it to continue.
[00:34:43] Jeevan Sangha: Great, I think that's the perfect note to leave it on. Um, thank you so much, Melanie, for sharing your work and your thoughts. It's been so great hearing from you. I think I speak for myself and Carol and the whole team, so thank you so much.
[00:34:58] Melanie Ash: You're welcome.
[00:35:00] Jeevan Sangha: I took so much from that conversation with Melanie. I mean, as journalists we both know how much work there is to be done when it comes to legal reform and racial equity, both in the U.S. and Canada. It's a bleak landscape for sure, but hearing Melanie's journey advocating for change was really nice to hear. What'd you think, Carol?
[00:35:16] Carol Eugene Park: Big retweet on that. Um, a big takeaway, uh, for me was taking care of yourself in your activism. You know, I feel like talking about activism, burnout, and fatigue are pretty recent things nowadays, and it was really refreshing to hear from a professional, um, talk about her experiences and the advice that she gave.
[00:35:34] Jeevan Sangha: I also appreciated her comments about how essential the energy of young people is as her career goes on. I mean, I imagine you felt a similar way about me since I joined the team. Right, Carol?
[00:35:45] Carol Eugene Park: If you're fishing for a compliment, you will be waiting in your grave. Because my love language is not words of affirmation. But nice try.
[00:35:53] Jeevan Sangha: Well, a girl can dream.
[00:35:55] Carol Eugene Park: Dream big, my Gen Z youth. Dream big.
[00:35:58] Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can follow me on Twitter @CarolEugenePark.
[00:36:13] Jeevan Sangha: And me @JeevanKsangha. From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.