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Welcome to The Boardroom Path, the essential podcast for aspiring and newly appointed Non-Executive Directors navigating the journey from executive leadership to the boardroom. Hosted by Ralph Grayson, partner at Sainty Hird & Partners, each episode offers insightful conversations with industry leaders, seasoned board directors, and governance experts. Our guests share practical strategies, valuable perspectives, and actionable advice on how to effectively transition into board roles, maximise your impact, and build a rewarding NED career.
[00:00:03] Ralph Grayson: Welcome to The Boardroom Path by Sainty Hird & Partners. I'm your host, Ralph Grayson, a partner in the board practice. In this series, we'll offer practical steps and useful perspectives for aspiring and newly appointed NEDs. Throughout its 30 year history, Sainty Hird has recruited senior board members across the City, Industry, the Public Sector and NGOs.
We're now also evaluating those boards, as well as coaching and mentoring those seeking to transition from an executive career into the boardroom. So we'll be speaking to some leading figures in the board advisory and NED world. Specifically, we'll seek their counsel about how and where to spend time and energy to make an effective transition into the boardroom.
The goal is to equip recent and aspiring NEDs with tips, tactics and strategies to be most effective and build a successful career as a board director. In the process, we aim to help you to think more about who you are, how you operate and how you can make this work in the boardroom.
Patrick Dunne OBE is an experienced chair, serial social entrepreneur, author of the award-winning book Boards, which every listener must read, which provides practical, realistic, and thought provoking advice for new and aspiring NEDs.
Patrick is the leading expert and advisor on boards and governance. His executive experience includes an executive career at Air Products and at 3i where he built a resource of over 600 experienced directors, appointed to over 2000 boards. The program Patrick built is widely recognized as the model for boards adding value and is the leader in best practice. Which became the inspiration for our establishment of BoardEx within Sainty Hird & Partners.
Patrick is Chair of the charities, the Royal Voluntary Service, and ESSA Education Sub-Saharan Africa. He's patron of the EY Foundation and LEAP Confronting Conflict. A visiting professor at Cranfield and Associate Fellow at Warwick Business School. He's also the chair of Board Delta of which more later. Most recently, Patrick co-authored Five Generations at Work. This is the first time five generations are working together. Which debunks stereotypes and silos, connects cultural and collaborative advantage, and addresses the issues of climate, geopolitics, technology and more.
Patrick, thank you so much for joining us today, despite 40 years of meeting and interviewing captains of industry and finance. I've never felt so in awe to be in front of somebody with such a wealth of experience.
So look let's get into what I took away from your book Boards. Purpose. People. Process. Can you elaborate a little bit about what you've learnt and what our first time, and aspirational, board members should be thinking in terms of the three Ps?
[00:03:17] Patrick Dunne: Yeah, so I mean the three Ps came about from an absolutely awful board meeting that I went to when I was really quite young and being dyslexic I'm not very good at taking notes and I use mathematical symbols a lot. Just trying to remember a moment and capture an idea. And as this board meetings progressing I drew this triangle with Purpose, People, Process in the corners because it seemed to me that there was no clarity of purpose. There certainly wasn't any alignment behind any purpose, that the wrong people working together in the wrong way and also all the processes were at the creek.
So I started to think about, well, what is the role of the board? What is the purpose of the board? And for me, it was all about, you know, ensuring that you've got the right strategy, the right resources, and the right governance. Assuming the purpose is clear. If the purpose isn't clear, then it's about ensuring you've got the right purpose and the right strategy to achieve that purpose and the right resources and the right governance.
But I always felt that it was never enough, and this came out later in the Higgs Review. It was never enough just to focus on what the role of the board is. I don't think you can have a high performing board if it hasn't got a high performing relationship with the executive, and I don't think you can have a high performing relationship with the executive if you're not clear what the role of the executive is.
So the other bit that goes with kind of right strategy, right resources, right governance, I think is the role of the exec, and for me that's always about developing the strategy, with input from the board and others. It's about delivering that strategy, that's the sort of core part of what executives do, and then it's about ensuring, and maintaining, financial and operational integrity. Whether you're a business, a social sector organization, a university, whatever you might be on the board of, I think if the board and the exec are clear about what their respective roles are then life tends to be much easier.
And the main discussion is about what's in the intersection because that intersection changes as organizations develop. You know, in early stage you don't have the resources for everything. The board probably lends a hand a bit more on stuff than it will do when it's a mature, established, organization.
[00:05:28] Ralph Grayson: So I know in your book you talk a lot about the fact that the right people should come up with the right process. But it seems to me, when I'm meeting executives who are thinking about their transition to the board, they struggle with that transfer. Not only of skillset, but of mindset.
Perhaps you can elaborate a little bit on that of the big mistakes you've seen of people having the wrong mindset when they think about should I be a NED? And how they actually position themselves to justify their existence in the boardroom?
[00:06:00] Patrick Dunne: Yeah, well there's quite a big difference between the sort of the doing and the knowing what should be done and what needs doing and providing the oversight of what is being done. I love being an executive. It's great achieving stuff. It's great driving things through. It's great having a degree of autonomy. But if you are a non-exec. You have actually very limited formal powers. You know, it's a team sport. Everything you do, any decision you're taking is a collective decision, really. About the only thing you can decide on your own is what you're going to say, when you're going to say it, who you're going to say it to, and how you going to say it.
So you kinda have to be more influencing, cajoling, nudging, you know, all of those kind of skills and sometimes if you are in some corporate environments where it's more hierarchical, it's more status driven, people will do what they're told. You know, they might have a little bit of a discussion, but they know who's the boss in that system. You don't develop that sort of skill, if you like.
So I think that understanding how to influence, how to command respect rather than to assume respect. I think that can be an issue and I think it's much easier to influence people if they respect you. It's really hard to influence people if they don't, and sometimes when you watch people transition they kind of assume the respect that they had in their previous role, which doesn't carry through to the new role. You've got to do useful stuff to get respected. You've got to be seen by the management, not just as a overseer or a police type person, you've got to be seen as someone who's going to really add value.
The more value you add, the more influence you'll have, and the more power you'll have when you need to say, hold on a minute, I'm not sure that's right. I think you need to think about it again. It will carry more weight.
[00:07:53] Ralph Grayson: So let's just touch on leadership in the boardroom for a second if we can, because it's something I'm fascinated by. Leadership in an executive sense, it's pretty straightforward. In terms of recognizing it and demonstrating it. What, what does leadership in the boardroom mean to you, and how should aspiring and new NEDs think about taking themselves out of the executive room and into the board, but keeping leadership?
[00:08:17] Patrick Dunne: I suppose the real test of leadership in a board role is the quality of decisions that you take over the long run. So your contribution to making really good decisions often will bring that respect, I talked about earlier. Will bring that power to you because people think I need to listen to this person. I need to hear what they're saying.
My Gran told me, she was not educated at all, my Gran. She used to come over on the boat twice a year and see us. But she would just spread such a load of magic and wisdom upon us. But one of the things she said to me as a young boy was, you know, it's really important to listen to what people say, but it's even more important to listen to what they think.
I think if you are a person, in a board context, and you are reading the room well, you are understanding who might be slightly uncomfortable with something or who might be getting a bit too excited about something, and you can use that intelligence that you're gathering to maybe not say the thing yourself, maybe to look across the table and say, Ralph, you know, I haven't heard from you yet. You know, what do you think about this? And if your judgment is right, you know, Ralph might say, well, I'm not quite sure about this, and so you are then not taking it all on you. But you're building then, there's two of you then, that aren't quite comfortable with this situation.
So I think there's something about those skills of reading the room and involving other people. Sometimes through body language, more than words. You know, you might just look at someone and they might start to speak or you might, you know, give a hand signal or some other cue to join in other people. It's interesting when you're a chair, you watch new non-execs and you can see fairly early on whether they've got that skill already or they've got that potential for that if they're early on and they are the sort of people who also ask for quite a lot of feedback. So, you know, after that first board meeting, they're saying, you know, really keen to know how I did and all the rest of it. You know, they want to up their game and they recognize it's a different setting and they recognize it's a different situation.
[00:10:21] Ralph Grayson: So the root of this is self-awareness. I think in your book you've talked about self-aware people are twice as effective as those with lower levels of self-awareness. So how does the new NED think about projecting themselves early on in those first few board meetings? When people are consciously and subconsciously watching them, looking at the fit, seeing when they speak, when they don't speak, thinking about that intelligent question rather than just taking up air time.
[00:10:55] Patrick Dunne: Yeah. So one of the things I like to do as a Chair, and it's the reverse if you are a new non-exec. Is when you've appointed someone that time between when they get their first board pack and when the meeting is I love to have a call with them. The call goes along the lines of, you know, what did you think of the board pack? How did you find it? Was anything unclear? That kind of thing. The second thing is, you know, when you've gone through the board pack, what struck you and what will be the big points that you think you might like to make in the meeting next week? You are actually helping them.
So when they arrive the next week, you can say, well, you know, well actually, when Ralph and I were on the phone last week, you know, just chatting and do the board papers, Ralph came with a really good point on this. Ralph, perhaps you'd like to share that. So you've got that invitation.
Now, if your chair isn't doing that, I'd say if you're a new non-exec, I'd ring the chair up between the getting the papers and the meeting and say, you know, love to have a chat. Here's my take on the board papers. If there's time, I'd really like to make a point on this or that. Then I think as a chair you're thinking, well, one, this person's put the work in. They're thinking about it. They're actually quite respectful and they're not going to do that lazy trap thing where you say, well, I'm the new person, I won't say anything in the first meeting. I think what a waste. You could say something in the first meeting, you might have a valuable contribution to make on a point. So make it. Don't just sit there going, you know, well, I'm the new person. I need to get the lay of the land and be cautious.
I think you really need to be active as a non-exec these days. Not overactive, but active and I think that way is a good way, and then if you follow that up with, usually I say to a new board member, you know, and let's have a chat a few days after the board meeting. Because I would love to get your take on the meeting, and get your reflections on, you know, on that and anything we could do better. Because I find if you ask for feedback, you generally get the right to give feedback. So in that conversation I'd also say, you know, I really thought Ralph that point you made on this was fantastic. Really hit the mark. Really changed the discussion. Really good. Or I might say, but actually you know, that bit when we were talking about that I thought you didn't seem to read the room and pick up that everyone had got the point and you didn't need to labor it.
So I think in getting that conversation going from the start with the board member and if your chair doesn't do that, there's nothing to stop you initiating that and making that happen, and I think that generally helps a lot.
[00:13:23] Ralph Grayson: So the importance of understanding the purpose of the board and the purpose in terms of the skill and board matrix of why am I here and why I've been invited to contribute and I think again, in your book you talk about trying to distill everything down to what are the three key priorities.
How do you focus on that in the poly crisis as people are now starting to talk, everything that's going on at the moment? The whole frame that we've had over the last decade or so, in terms of purpose, in terms of stakeholders. That seems to be being turned on its head now. So how does the new board member try and refocus, reframe, what it is a board is there to do and think about all of these issues that are now suddenly coming to the fore?
[00:14:08] Patrick Dunne: Yeah. And what you'll often find is those issues are interlinked. So they're not as distinct, perhaps, as they might have been historically. They're woven together and each effects the other. So one thing, you know, I really love to do is at regular intervals say, you know, well, what are the top three things? And ask each person individually, what do you think are the top three things we should be spending our board time on in the next three board meetings or four board meetings? And when should we discuss those things? What information do you think we need to make a good decision on that point? And what external inputs do you think will be helpful to have on that?
I don't think we spend enough time doing that. I think agendas, although they are changing more quickly than ever before, and although there are many different types of board meetings now, you know, we haven't got that stereotypical three hour meeting all the time.I think it's really important to keep focused on the big strategic things.
It's interesting when I'm helping boards to regenerate or transform or whatever nice word you want to use, sort themselves out. One of the things I do is usually ask people individually, privately, what do you think those top three things are? And I did this the other day with a board and for seven people I got 24 different top three things. So that tells me two things really. One, they don't do that. They don't talk about what are the most important three things. The second thing is, they've all got a slightly different idea about what the top three things are, and they were quite divergent.
So to me, one of the most important things that board needs to do is have a discussion and say, actually, okay, you know, what are the big decisions we have to take? And those should be the priorities in terms of filling board time. Other things can be delegated. But these three things we have to get right. These are the most important things and how should we go about them?
[00:16:03] Ralph Grayson: So let's bring this into the context of Five Generations then, because I think how different generations might prioritize that and might have the confidence to bring it up as the priority in the right way. I think Murray Steele talks about The Zone of Uncomfortable Debate. What's your perspective around how different generations might think about issues? And then maybe we'll drill into what some of those immediate issues are.
[00:16:32] Patrick Dunne: Yeah, so I think the first thing is to think about, well, what is a generation? Generally in the West, we think of a generation as being like a 15, 16 year period for some reason and it's all the people who were born and coming into adulthood during that 15, 16 year period. So there were the baby boomers after the Second World War, then the Gen X, then Gen Y, which became Millennials and then Gen Z, and now we're sort of onto Gen Alpha.
But actually, when you look across the world, generations are defined in a very different way. So in China, there's the 4-2-1 Generation, because the single child policy meant there were four grandparents, two parents, one child, and that one child had all the kind of focus and energy and wealth focused on them. That's reversed out into the 1-2-4 Generation. And guess what? That one child doesn't want to support and hasn't got the time to care for those six elders and there's social tension there. In South Africa, you have the Born Free Generation, and so when you look at it, the different generations are really about, when they were born, obviously, the socioeconomic circumstances prevailing at the time, the culture at the time, whether they were in conflict or not. So young people in Gaza or in other war zones around the world will have a very different view of the world than those, you know, of the same age in a different continent.
So the main thing about the generational thing is it is just another aspect of diversity really, and the main challenges are to do with understanding each other. It's clear at the moment, if you look at the discourse in the press, that, you know, there are lots of challenges where people don't quite understand why someone is thinking, speaking, behaving in a way that's very different to what was the norm for their generation. The way we communicate is quite an important part of that. So I think where you've got multi-generational boards or where you're using a next gen board, one of the things that you must do is put the time in to understand those people just as you would anyone else. Why do they think like that?
Yesterday I was chatting with a Chair,and he's completely perplexed by the working from home, working in the office thing. I'm saying basically, you know, just spend a little bit of time and actually understand why they think that way. He's become very frustrated with it. Work ethic is another thing. Quite a few people who have got to the top by just working, you know, ridiculous hours, made huge personal sacrifices, don't understand some of the things that other generations will say about that. Younger generations do not understand why you could be so mad to neglect your family to do those things, and we just need to talk those things through.
I think there's something also about the view of the world that we might have. The view of what's acceptable and what isn't.
[00:19:34] Ralph Grayson: Sorry, jumping in. It just makes me think how do we balance the idea of a safe space in the boardroom with Murray's Zone of Uncomfortable Debate. We're looking at a pretty unique moment in history, right? For good or for bad. That's Trump's bonfire of the acronyms, the culture wars, greenhushing, a new thing I heard this morning. Not greenwashing, but greenhushing. And to your five generations thing, we've still got multi-generations looking at life through different perspectives as you touched on. So division by silos, stereotypes, clickbait, God help us with all the social media that goes around this stuff, and it seems to me that we are pitting one generation perhaps against another.
[00:20:18] Patrick Dunne: It's so divisive. Yeah, and it's so silly. So the basic idea of this book is about, you know, having five generations in the workforce is a wonderful gift. Those different perspectives, those different skills, those different experiential situations that people have been through. That's a tremendous thing to use for whatever is the purpose of your organization. So our point is, you know, why don't we just maximize the potential and actually solve these challenges, which I think are fairly straightforward, and talking about it is the first step to dealing with it.
It is interesting, in the Royal Voluntary Service, you know, it's a massive volunteering organization and we have volunteers of all ages, and one of the things that's been fantastic since I started Chairing it is visiting the work that we're doing. You know, I was in Stoke recently and there was like an 83-year-old volunteer and an 18-year-old in the kitchen. This community center serves some people, maybe the only hot meal they're going to get. So an 83-year-old is training the 19-year-old. The 83 year old's dancing around the kitchen, literally, inspirational guy, and the 19-year-old is teaching the 83-year-old stuff, and then both of them are with, you know, Gen X, really badly down on their luck. And they're communicating in a very natural, easy way, and I'm thinking, this is brilliant. You know, they're respecting each other. They're listening to each other. They're learning off each other. They're inspiring each other. Why can't we do that, you know, in a much, easier environment, if you like, in many workplaces?
What was staggering when we were doing the research for the book, which we did over about five years, and we used AI to help us with the research, was we found hundreds of examples of organizations intentionally doing things to help different organizations work better together. Many of them are cataloged in the book. But there's some extraordinary examples, and they're making irrelevant, some of these things that, you know, you see in the newspapers about different generational challenges because they're focusing on how can we make the best of combining these different generations as opposed to how can we accentuate the differences.
[00:22:34] Ralph Grayson: Just before we leave this, I just want to do a little bit more on this idea of a safe space. It's been very clear, for the last few years, around ESG stakeholders engagement. We knew what the framework was. We knew what was acceptable vocabulary, and most importantly, what wasn't. But now we've got one half of the world vocally advocating to row back on this stuff, another part of the world saying, no, we're going to stick by it, and many examples in between.
How does a younger person, who's maybe more aspirational about joining a shadow board or a horizon board, we'll come to more of that in a second, but how do they get comfortable with how they frame what they can say and how they can say it in that context?
[00:23:21] Patrick Dunne: I think it's quite hard when some companies are sort of seesawing about the place. So, you can't say one day I believe strongly this, and then the next day, oh no, I don't.
So I think you've got to be really clear about what you believe is right. What you think is acceptable. There'll be companies that maybe it is the expedient thing to do at the moment. But I think they may find churn rates rise. They may find it harder to retain people. Equally, I think, you know, sometimes a holier than thou attitude has the same effect actually in reverse. So I think having a balanced view on these things is the right way to go.
[00:24:07] Ralph Grayson: Reaffirming your North Star, right? Mission and purpose.
[00:24:09] Patrick Dunne: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Ralph Grayson: We probably haven't got time to dwell in it too much here. But what do you think should be going through the mind of the BP board now?
[00:24:15] Patrick Dunne: I think what do we actually think is in the long-term interests of the business our key stakeholders. The financial markets clearly are a big, big driver within that. I think a year's time is probably going to take a year before actually we see some of these things play out fully. I think we're at an early stage of this particular disruption and it's combining with other things.
You know, it's not just the DEI row back, it's a geopolitical tensions, it's climate, it's technology, AI is a whole extra topic, and all these things are interlinked, aren't they? So for a board, getting your head around what's controllable? What's uncontrollable? All right you can't control it, but you need to respond to it, and you need to be ready for the consequences of this. So at the moment I'd be saying, you know, climate risk's gone up a lot. I'd say geopolitical tension. You don't have to be a genius to say that's gone up. I think the technological risk is also rising. I think more mistakes will be made because of the environment that we're in. So I think there's a general risk that's heightened because everyone's tense. That doesn't always lead to the best decision making.
[00:25:32] Ralph Grayson: Let's back to the light and away from the dark, shall we?
[00:25:35] Patrick Dunne: Yeah.
[00:25:35] Ralph Grayson: Okay. talk to me about Horizon boards, Shadow boards, Next Generation boards. Ollie on his Nurole Podcast has started talking about popup boards. I don't whether you've heard that expression.
[00:25:45] Patrick Dunne: Yeah, yeah,
[00:25:45] Ralph Grayson: Just elaborate a little bit on that will you.
[00:25:47] Patrick Dunne: Yeah, so Next Gen seems to be the prevailing term at the moment, and Next Gen is used in two contexts. So one younger generation, the next generation coming up, but also the next generation of the organization. So ironically, some Next Gen boards are multi-generational and the idea behind them, and they can be very different for different purposes in different, companies.
So, you know, if you look at Gucci, that was about business transformation. If you look at Stora Enzo, that's about transformation. If you look at the EY foundation, that was a startup where we, put the next generation board in at the beginning, and that was to help shape the strategy, to challenge the strategy, to ensure we had the most relevant programs that we could possibly have for the young people that we were trying to help in poverty, and that's on its fifth iteration. And on each iteration we've adapted the model. So the purpose of the first one was really to work out what is a really good model for a next generation board for the EY Foundation, as well as all those other things I talked about before.
The second one had a clear mandate to completely transform the approach we were taking to digital. Luckily that was ahead of Covid and that actually was a fantastic, thing for us. The third one was around, you know, how can we better understand that interrelationship between employers and young people in poverty trying to get jobs in great companies.
So giving them a clear purpose is really key. Most people have a two year cycle and people have to make all sorts of decisions about whether you're going to have an open application process. Whether you're going to talent spot people. what's the support model for them? Do you have the most interaction with the executive leadership of the organization or the board itself? And you can have both, obviously. One of the things that's really, amused me, because I've been a fan of these for about 20 years, has been, it's really important to train that next generation board on lots of things.
You know, so if it's a public company confidentiality or how to deal with their colleagues. Because all of a sudden, you know, you're kind of on a Next Gen board. To some people you have gone over to the management.So you might be treated differently. What can you say about the next gen board to your colleagues? You know, you still got to be functional in your day job and you still got to perform and you want to be respected and trusted as a colleague and so on. So there's lots there.
But interestingly, in the early days of Next Gen boards, people did put a lot of effort into training the Next Gen boards. But I was always keen as well to train the people who were working with the Next Gen board in how to work with the Next Gen board and get the best out of them. One system we put in the EY Foundation, and many people do this, is a buddy system. So each member of a Next Gen board has a board buddy. That can be a really productive thing. It's like a lot of things, the reverse mentoring is as powerful as the mentoring.
When we were doing the Five Generations book, we came across over 200 Next Gen boards, and so we looked at a decent number and I think it's fantastic how they're used for different purposes. They're compositions are quite different, And it's been quite organic so far. I think a lot have got off to a very fast start and then struggled to sustain themselves. So I think hopefully there's some tips around what things you need to think about to make sure you can sustain them. But, one of my favorite things about the Next Gen boards is we usually put someone on each of the board subcommittees, and so often they just bring a totally different insight. Totally different challenge. Totally different ideas to those subcommittees as well as the board itself.
I think they're well worth investing in and putting the time into, and I've certainly had way more value back than effort I've put into helping them.
[00:29:45] Ralph Grayson: Yeah, old people can learn from young people. Young people can learn from old people, right? So how does maybe an aspiring, a young aspiring, NED think about that as a stepping stone? I mean, you and I have spent a lot of time, no doubt, over the years telling aspiring NEDs go and support a charity. Do a not-for-profit. Learn about governance by giving something back. Where does this generational opportunity come into how aspiring NEDs should be thinking about the footpath to the boardroom?
[00:30:15] Patrick Dunne: Well, I mean, I'll give you a particular example. So there's a young woman who was deputy chair of our EY Youth Advisory Board. She's now at BP. She's a regular speaker all over the country, on Next Gen boards. Her profile's fantastic. She's getting invitations to join all sorts of boards. It's brilliant.
I think next gen boards can be a very good stepping stone, not just because of the visibility and there's a downsides to the visibility too, because, you know, to progress in a corporate, you've also got to be good at your day job. So you have to be really careful about not overtrading.
But it's about the situations that they encounter. The experiences that they have and watching and learning from, you know, other people around them. Not just those who are more experienced, but from each other. I mean, I was so lucky early on in my career to work with really good chairs, really good non-execs who I learned just tons from.
I also had the great experience of working with some really bad ones. You know, sometimes you learn as much from the bad as the good, don't you? You know, I'm not going to do that when I'm, when I get into that position. I think that opportunity to watch, to learn, to experience those different situations, the increased visibility, all of those things I think help you, and we'll probably get you board positions earlier than you might have done otherwise.
[00:31:40] Ralph Grayson: Fascinating, I'd talk about this all day, but we'll have to run out of time otherwise.
So, key takeaways, key advice that maybe things you hadn't thought about before you wrote the book that now you think, gosh, wish I'd known that a year ago?
What would you tell your young self now?
[00:31:56] Patrick Dunne: Oh, I think, go for it. I had bucket loads of imposter syndrome and anxiety about a lot of things, and actually I could have saved myself a lot of worry time and maybe done better if I'd got on with it rather than over analyzing and worrying about my inadequacies.
You know, many of those inadequacies are still there. Some I've managed to sort out. But I think, get on with it. I asked my 88-year-old mom who's nearly blind, fantastic Irish woman,I said, well, what do you think, mom? She said, oh, it's got a really simple message. Stop worrying and get on with it.
[00:32:34] Ralph Grayson: Great advice at so many levels.
[00:32:35] Patrick Dunne: That and that's about the generational thing, you know, just listen to people, work with people, get on with people, and it'll be all right.
[00:32:43] Ralph Grayson: So apart from reading Boards and reading Five Generations, what do our young aspiring NEDs do in a practical sense? What do they take away from this?
[00:32:51] Patrick Dunne: Go and get those opportunities. Try and make them happen for yourself. Talk to people who are in the positions that you want to be in and, you know, learn how they got there, what they do. What they actually do, because sometimes the thing that you want might not actually be the thing that you really want when you get there and to understand really what that job entails.
So, for example, at the moment there are a lot of non-execs withdrawing from public company boards because of the asymmetry of risk and reward in a fulfillment sense rather than a financial sense. There are lots of people withdrawing from NHS trust boards and so on, because they don't realize that. There are other people who love the challenges that those people who don't want that want. So I think, think hard about, you know, why do you want that? Is it just the status? I'm a board member, I'm a chair, I'm a whatever, or is it actually, I really would enjoy doing that.
I love chairing Royal Voluntary Service. I mean, it's complicated. It's challenging. It's difficult. But the team are fantastic, what we're doing, I really believe in, and same with ESSA and the kick you get from thinking actually as a board, we made a difference today. We made a better decision. We didn't do that thing that might have, you know, led to difficulty later. We did make the right call. That's a big kick. And watching your executive team, you know, develop, flourish, you know, you get a real kick from that. So I think, think about what the job really is rather than the status of it, and understand what that job really is. Which many of the training programs I think are very helpful in doing so. I'd get on those too.
[00:34:32] Ralph Grayson: So hopefully we've peaked the interest of some people who might want to follow up on some of these themes in a bit more detail. How can they connect with you? How can they follow you? Board Delta, we haven't really talked about that. Let's, let's just finish off with Patrick Dunne OBE and Board Delta.
[00:34:48] Patrick Dunne: Well, to connect with me is really easy, LinkedIn is the best way. It's pretty obvious if you put in Patrick Dunne, there are quite a lot of esteemed Patrick Dunnes, my son being one of them. But I'm not the particle physicist, I'm the Boards guy.
Board Delta is a really simple business, it's a social enterprise, and it does training and advisory work. The advisory work is usually where there's something complicated, messy, difficult, board situation, and you want some help. It could be in a major corporate, could be in a small charity. It's a social enterprise because I subsidize the work I do for the charity and social sector, and a big chunk of the profits goes to the five charities I'm most closely associated with. The training is great fun and that's some open programs and I have partnerships with the FT and others for that and then some company specific ones. Probably 80% of it's outside the UK. So a lot of it is in far flung places.
[00:35:46] Ralph Grayson: Patrick's blog is great to read. His content on LinkedIn is a must read. Please follow him, listen to him. So much wisdom. I've been so looking forward to this conversation. We could have talked for so much longer but we've got to finish somewhere. So thank you so much, Patrick. It's been an absolute pleasure.
[00:36:06] Patrick Dunne: And for me. You've been great fun, thank you.
[00:36:08] Ralph Grayson: I hope that you've enjoyed listening to this podcast and have found it helpful when thinking about how to approach your own path to the boardroom. If you would like to push this a little bit further, Sainty Hird runs a bespoke one to one programme designed specifically to this end. For more information, please visit our website, saintyhird.com, follow us on LinkedIn, and subscribe to the Boardroom Path to receive new episodes. Thank you for listening.