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Understanding the Book of Daniel is a thought-provoking podcast that explores one of the Bible’s most mysterious and powerful books. Each episode dives deep into the historical context, prophetic visions, and spiritual lessons found in Daniel—revealing how its timeless truths speak directly to the challenges we face in the modern world.
Whether you're navigating uncertainty, seeking courage in the face of adversity, or looking for spiritual insight in a chaotic age, this podcast connects ancient wisdom to contemporary life. Join us as we uncover how Daniel’s faith, resilience, and revelations offer guidance, hope, and clarity for today’s journey.
Welcome to the Understanding Daniel
podcast. My name's Peter. I am a pastor at
Browncroft Community Church. We want to
help you not only understand and
interpret, but apply the book of Daniel to
your life today. I am so excited to be
with Paul Kim. Paul Kim wrote a book, part
of the series, The Gospel-Centered Life in
the Bible. It's a study on the book of
Daniel. We'll talk more about it, but it's
a great resource for you as an individual,
but also as a small group leader to go
through this book. And today we're dealing
with the question, how do I apply Daniel
to my everyday life? Paul, it'll only take
two minutes, so no, I'm just kidding. How
are you doing today? I am doing well.
Thanks so much for having me. So where I
want to get started is most people that I
meet when it comes to the book of Daniel,
it finds them, they don't go looking for
it. Is that true with you? Yeah, I think
so, for sure. Having been in San Diego at
one church for 24, 25 years, I think one
of the main things about this study, which
came from a sermon, was wanting our people
to go deeper in the Scriptures. And in
God's Word under discipleship. And then
when I went through this sermon series and
just reading this ancient book, I was just
struck by like, this is so relevant to my
context. And how are people going to be
formed in the gospel and not by the world?
So just God's Word and this particular
passage in my own studies just took a hold
of me and felt like this is such a timely
book for our context. Yeah, we're kind of
going through the same thing at
Browncroft. Was there a situation, was it
through prayer and a team discussion of
kind of saying, hey, let's as a church
take a deep dive, help everybody
understand how you landed in this series
and in this book? Yeah, that's a great
question. I mean, just coming out of like
COVID all the different challenges that
came out of that. And like in this new
terrain of like, Lord, where are we? I
felt like I was trying to get my own
bearings and shepherding and leading. And
it was in that season of just my own,
like, God, where are we going here? We
need you. And I just felt in my own
experience of, uh, just feeling like, how
do I live as a follower of Jesus in this
place that we're in, in this cultural
moment that we're in? So it began
personally in that way, and then studying
it. And then obviously, from the context
of our church, I'm sharing with our
leadership team, hey, what do you think
about this, this series? And everyone's
like, yes, this makes a lot of sense. So
it was just kind of affirmed, and we went
forward with it. So as someone that
preaches, I actually don't think that you
preach well until you've had to preach the
text to yourself. And most pastors would
say the same thing. What specific part do
you think, maybe it was the Spirit leading
you or it just, what part of Daniel hit
you the most? Because you're saying, hey,
it hit me personally. What part would you
sit there and say, hey, this was the most
meaningful section to you? That is a great
question. Just as you're asking that
question, I'm thinking of two or three
immediate responses that come to mind. But
I think the one that I will share that
surprised me was studying the second half
of the Book of Daniel. The part that
people often don't preach about, the
visions, and it seems scary, But it struck
me that the central message that God is
sovereign, Jesus wins, suffering has an
expiration date, kingdoms come and go, but
the Lord's kingdom will prevail. And that
overarching theme is all throughout the
book of Daniel. But in that second half,
when there's all those visions and it's
really intense, that message, for me, in
preparation when I just felt like, oh,
Lord, how am I gonna shepherd through this
time? I just feel so inadequate. I feel
just overwhelmed. And that section in
particular just took a hold in me. I was
like, yes, Lord, you are the sovereign
king. And I do find it interesting. I've
read somewhere that, especially among
persecuted Christians in the world, the
book of Daniel and Revelation are the most
comforting. And I think it's just a
reminder that this world can be
nightmarish, but Jesus calms those
nightmares with his victory. And so I
think that was the big arching theme. I
was like, yes, thank you, Jesus, you win.
And I needed to remember that in my own
unbelieving heart. You know, let's go
there just for a second because just to be
honest, I think most of us as pastors,
we're afraid of that second half of the
book because we don't wanna talk about the
prophecies, the red heifers, you know,
just, and it's not that that stuff doesn't
matter, but there's almost this like, this
over-focus on events, but then we also
don't want to deny it and some people want
to stick their head in the sand. How do
you want people to receive that section of
the Book of Daniel knowing the context
that we're in today? That's a great
question, and I know probably a whole
other conversation can be had about
unpacking these things. There are people
smarter than me that might have a
different perspective than I do, and some
who are similar to mine. So I think the
perspective I always want to have is,
let's go deep in knowing God's Word, and
we should do that. And at the end of the
day, too, what's the message that's being
communicated in Daniel that we don't want
to lose sight of the forest when you get
so caught up in the trees. We should study
God's Word. We should try to understand it
because it's God's Word. But the
overarching message, though, of Daniel is
this message that what happens after exile
for them? Jesus will win. Life is hard.
Exile is difficult. There's suffering. So
I just want to live in that tension of, we
go deep in God's word, don't lose sight of
the forest in light of just getting caught
up in the trees and remember that. And I
think that's a tension to be managed. So
that's what I would say from my own
perspective of wanting to go deep in God's
word. And in my study I do share like,
Hey, some commentary suggests this way.
Here's kind of, I do have a way of, of my
own perspective and looking at this, these
portions and saying, Hey, this is what I
think it means. But, Ultimately, though,
here's what I know the message and
confidence in what it's saying is that
Jesus wins. Let's remember that. So no,
that's really good. So let's kind of back
up. I love kind of jumping around because
the goal of this episode really is, you
know, we want to give you the context. We
want to talk about the hard Hebrew words.
We want to do all of that. But we also
want to remember this is supposed to
impact our Monday through Saturday. So
let's start here. What's your definition
of the gospel? And then how is the gospel
played out in Daniel that would help
people see Jesus? Yeah, what a great
question to start with. I would say, you
know, the Gospel means good news. Good
news of what Jesus has done. It's not good
advice. The Gospel is a declaration that
Jesus Christ has come. He died a death
that we should have died. He lived a life
that we should have lived, and we are
found in Him, and He's done it all. So,
that message of declaration is not a call
for religious moral performance or trying
to be right with God and salvation by our
sanctification or what we do. But in light
of what Jesus has done for us, He's the
one who keeps us, sustains us. That is the
message of the gospel, and the gospel is
the power for all of life and living. So
in light of the gospel truth that Jesus is
the hero, not us, and the story of
scripture is gospel-centered, so it all
points upon to the real hero, Jesus, and
what He's done for us. Then you look at
Daniel, and a lot of people can look at
Daniel as an example only and go, if I had
faith like Daniel, if I only had faith
like this, like Daniel to live in Babylon,
you know, that's what God calls me to do.
And if we make it about our faith, It
makes it about our performance, right?
We'll become self-righteous or we'll be in
despair saying, oh, I don't have enough
faith. I will wilt underneath that. But we
have to remember that Jesus is the true
and better Daniel who came into our world
of exile to bring us home. And because He
defeated the ultimate enemies through His
ultimate lion's den, that frames all our
trials with the battle that has already
been won. And in light of the Gospel,
because of that, You know, what, 1
Corinthians 15, O death, where's your Eda,
where's your sting? Romans 8, nothing can
separate us from the love of God, which is
Christ Jesus our Lord. These truths that
Jesus has done for us, take heart. He's
the one who holds you and he's with you.
And because of that, stand firm in the
gospel. Because of the gospel, that's your
core and your power. That's a super great
setup. So let's dive into what you just
said. So I think the temptation for us,
you're on the West Coast, I'm on the East
Coast, the temptation for us is to look at
the lives of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach,
and Abednego, and not that a Daniel fast
is bad, not that having faith or saying
yes to God and standing is bad, But how do
I know that I'm seeing those four figures
through the gospel as opposed to kind of
this American idea of we're going to
overcome the odds. Like we're going to
like there there's a fine line between I
want to stand for Jesus and what he's done
as the resurrected king to It's almost
humanism. We will rise above whatever
challenges. What does that look like in
our everyday lives? That's a great
question. In speaking, maybe just as a
reminder for myself and to Christians, you
know, thinking about this is remembering
first that even in Daniel, the reason why
God's people were in exile is because of
their sin. And so I think it's really
important for Christians to remember the
gospel and the categories that the
scripture provides. It's not good people
versus bad people, but it's humble versus
proud people. And Christians can really,
including myself, we can be forgetful and
think good versus bad. We're the bad
people over there, and it's kind of like
the us against them. Until we remember
that gospel, we are sinners. We are people
in exile. We need Jesus to save us. And so
with that perspective in mind, and what I
love about Daniel too, it shows such a
picture of a powerful, great, big God of
who God is. And when we understand that,
that humbles us. It should lead to a true
sense of our own humility of who am I and
nothing that I bring. So I just think it's
important for me, it's a reminder to me in
even reading through Daniel, like why
Daniel and God's people were in exile in
the first place. And it's not because they
were better people and there's the bad
people, but we're all sinners. So it's not
good and bad, but like humble people
before the Lord saying, Lord, help me,
save me versus proud saying, I don't need
you Lord. So I found that those categories
to be helpful. Well, it's interesting as
you're saying that, because in Daniel
four, it's the fascinating story of
Nebuchadnezzar and he's standing on top of
the roof and he says, look at everything
I've accomplished. and there's a very
subtle thread to the Pharisees where in
the New Testament and if Pharisees today
heard us say that they would be so
offended because of who Nebuchadnezzar was
but even in the book of Daniel it points
to You can, and it's just after chapter
three, he's experienced this amazing
miracle, and all of a sudden now he's
standing up there with pride. The
Pharisees display a very similar pride to
look at all that we've done for God,
right? A hundred percent. That statement
that Nebuchadnezzar makes is like, If
we're honest and when he looks around and
goes, is this not the great Babylon, which
I've done? I did it. And how many of us,
we just fill in the blank instead of
Babylon, we'll say the same thing. Is this
not the great family or church or my
career or success or my parenting? Pride
is focus on yourself, right? And it can
obviously manifest itself in success, but
pride, if it's on you, it shows up in a
lot of, you know, different, um, in, in
its derivative form. It's pride is saying,
I am great. because it's focused on you,
but it's also saying, I am not great.
You're still focusing on yourself. It's
also, it could show up when you're getting
criticized and someone says to you, you
are not great. And you feel like, Oh, I'm,
you know, that's it. And even a fear. What
if I am not great? All that is pride. So
whether it's like, I am great, I'm not
great, you are not great, or what if I'm
not great? It's all a focus on ourselves
instead of the Lord. And when we think
about it from that perspective, yeah,
we're all Pharisees. We're in Christian,
we're recovering Pharisees, as Jack Miller
would say. Or we need to be recovering
Pharisees. Yeah. I love that, because, and
again, in some ways, I feel like this is
just two pastors talking about the Bible
as if we were having coffee, and whoever's
listening is listening, because it just
made me think of, you know, one of my
favorite verses in Daniel is Daniel 12,
three, and it talks about those who are
wise will shine. And later on in
Philippians 2, what does Paul say? He
talks about not grumbling and complaining,
and that's in the context of Jesus was
serving. And the whole point of that is
that you'd shine like stars in the heaven.
And even listening to you talk about the
gospel, I think the way that we apply this
is Like the Bible is one continuous story.
It's not the Old Testament separated from
the New Testament. We're seeing Paul is,
you know, he's deriving from some of these
principles of this is how you live if
Jesus is King. Exactly. A hundred percent.
And you gave some of those great themes.
I'm imagining, you know, Peter had that in
mind when he wrote 1 Peter, right? He
starts out with like, to the elect exiles.
And then in chapter five, what is it? In
verse 13, he says, she who is in Babylon
greets you and commentaries think that's
like Rome, right? And Christian. So it's
like, You take all that in mind where
exiles were in Babylon and Peter is like,
you're suffering, but the living hope is
Jesus. Let's remember that, right? As
elect people of God, yet you are chosen
people, right? God's delight. Like, yes.
So it's all connected in that way. So
let's kind of come back to when you've
preached through this. I'm sure there's
people now that have a lot of questions
for you. What are some of the most common
issues or questions that you're still
getting or that you remember during doing
this sermon series? Yeah, what a great
question. I think In terms of question,
it's kind of—well, I would say, for me,
the Book of Daniel can—at least two
thoughts that I hope God's Word will
challenge. One is to challenge the
complacent. to go, hey, don't you—we are
living in Babylon, and there should be a
conviction over compromise. And you look
at Daniel and his friends, and I don't
want to downplay that. Like, Jesus is
beautiful, and if He's beautiful, then we
should stand firm in the gospel. So
especially in San Diego, where the idols
of comfort abound, It's a real good
challenge for people here to go, oh, wow,
wait, there is a cost to following Jesus.
And if there isn't, what's going on? So
it's a challenge to Lukewarm. But then on
the flip side, in light of what's
happening in our world and our culture,
it's a challenge to go that way, to
remember, look, Daniel stood firm, but he
was not a jerk. And Jeremiah 29, seven,
you know, says, seek the Shalom of the
city. And so you look at Daniel and he was
this, you know, he was so rooted in his
identity that he was firm in his
conviction, but he engaged, he was like
the Kings favored him. So it brought both
favor and persecution. And I think I'll
get different questions from the two
different groups in our church with both
of those things in mind. Like, hey,
remember, you're called to be a blessing.
Don't be so angry. Like, look, God's on
the throne, and we should stand firm,
right? But remember the gospel. On the
other side, it's like, hey, is Babylon
moldy? Like in Daniel chapter one,
Daniel's sent into exile, he's eating the
food, he's getting great lifestyle,
literature, and learning, and Babylon's
shaping him. It's sort of like a frog in a
kettle type of thing, and like, that's our
culture, too. And how much are we even
aware of those shaping influences? And so
some of the questions then I'll get from
people like that is like, oh, wow, that's
right. It could be even in a good life,
I'm being formed, and so I need to be
reformed and reshaped by the gospel. So I
don't know if that specifically answered
your question, but those questions that I
often get or responses are kind of both
sides, and the gospel addresses both in
the book of Daniel. I might get in trouble
with this, but pastors are all about
alliteration. It sounds like you're
talking about the complacent and the
conspiracy theorist. And so you got both
sides of that, and that's kind of what
we're wrestling with is to the conspiracy
theorist, like we're not denying or afraid
of the truth but we also like we don't
like what C.S. Lewis said in Screwtape
Letters we don't want to look for a demon
under every rock and then for the
complacent I love the word comfort because
it's is this going to inconvenience my
life and how I serve and what I do and so
What you know, thinking about San Diego
and thinking about the book of Daniel, you
kind of went there, but I'd love for you
to go deeper. What are some of the
attitudes that the attitudes of the heart
that you would want this book to influence
on a practical level? I think. That's a
great question. I'm trying to just frame
how I'm going to respond to that,
especially my context in San Diego. I
think the attitude that addresses the fear
on the one hand, like in Southern
California and people, when they think of
Southern California, they can think of the
West Coast and all this stuff. just
remembering, in light of the fear, like,
hey, the Lord reigns. He's sovereign. And
for our people, remember that. And it is a
good reminder for my church people to
remember that Jesus is the Lord and He's
the King. And I don't know the context of
where your church – I mean, every church,
culture, environment, right, is different,
but we're not in the Bible Belt. We're in
Southern California. And so with that, I
just think it's important for our people
to remember particularly that. I also do
think the attitude of pride. is so
significant. The juxtaposition of Daniel 4
and 5, Nebuchadnezzar and his son, you
have two pictures of pride back-to-back.
One is like, didn't I do something great?
And the other pride is dismisses of God,
Belshazzar, and judgment comes. I just
think the context of our particular area
can be like, I can do it. We have a lot of
successful people and they come to San
Diego because they are successful and they
have means and we can do it. And we can
fool ourselves into thinking, is this not
the great me? And then drive us further
away from the gospel. You know, I
resonate. I lived in Springfield,
Missouri, so I lived in the buckle of the
Bible Belt, I will argue that. But even I
think some of the attitudes that we're
thinking about that Daniel pulls out, I
love what you talked to, we're talking
about being for the city, being for the
common good. I think that that's the
positive end. I think the negative end
where I think Rochester and San Diego are
similar is the fact that this is not our
home. And the whole, even as I listen to
you talk and the other commentators, we
are in exile. This is not this side of
eternity. And so I think part of what the
gospel does is it calls us to say, hey,
what are you putting comfort in right now?
that was never meant to do that. So
whether it's the lake house, whether it is
moving to San Diego because the weather's
really nice, whether it is I did just get
up the next level in payment or I got the
promotion or the achievement. And the
funny thing about the book of Daniel, and
I didn't even think we were gonna talk
about this, is Daniel is like second in
command. And like all throughout the whole
book, it doesn't, I wouldn't say it
doesn't phase him, but you can tell he's
very uncomfortable with that. And maybe
that's not the word to use, but it's not
like it's this rosy, pretty picture.
Daniel 5, he's got to tell Belshazzar that
he's going to die the next day. Daniel 6,
he's got to be thrown into the lion's den.
Even listening to you, there's this
attitude like, oh, this is our home. It's
like, no, this is not our home. Exactly.
That's, that's a, I love what you're
sharing and it's easy at, it can be very
easy in, you know, Tim Keller talks about
what are your landmarks in your city that
usually will shape what your idols are,
right? New York will be the finance stuff
and LA, you have the big Hollywood sign.
Well, what's San Diego hotels. So it's
like, well, let's find our Shangri-La
right in San Diego. We'll make this our
home. No, we are not home. And I think
that's, there's so, that's why I, It's so
holistic even in Daniel saying, look,
there's a dark side to this stuff that
comes out, persecution. But in Daniel
chapter one, it's like he's being like
wined and dined, you know, being brought
into exile to just shape him in that way.
And that is a very real temptation in our
particular context to make it our home. So
as we kind of close, and again, we want to
be careful because it's the gospel
motivated. It's not check the box to look
good. But what are some concrete ways that
you would want people to apply the book of
Daniel to their lives today? What do you
think it would look like? Well, the Bible
said he's called Stan Firmin adversity. So
I think the idea that as God's people, not
like the, um, Not the culture warrior kind
of like, you know, that type of stuff. I'm
not talking about that. But what does it
mean to stand firm in the gospel rooted?
In Daniel 1, verse 8, when all this stuff
is coming, he's being whined and dined, it
says that Daniel resolved to not eat this
food. So he wasn't thinking, well, you
know, let's just see how it goes. There
was a conviction that he was gripped by,
and I think, living in exile, that is
challenging. Not from a, like, we do it in
our own strength because we don't. But is
Jesus so much the good, the true, and the
beautiful that he is worth living for? And
I remember hearing someone talk about this
in Luke chapter 17, the 10 lepers, right?
They're healed and they go off, but one
returns. So the nine of them are like,
thanks Jesus. And they kind of go on, they
got what they wanted from Jesus and they
go on. But one came back, one came back
and fell down and worshiped and gave him
thanks. And that's so challenging because
in the gospel, I want to challenge our
people, and I'm praying that that would be
me, that even if no one else comes back,
I'm going to. And not because of my faith
or look at how I'm a greater Daniel, but
because Jesus, you are the true, the good,
and the beautiful, and you are my absolute
beauty and object of my worship. And so is
Jesus so much the center of our delight
that we want to live for him and
everything else falls by the boy's side. I
think that would be a challenge of
standing firm in adversity in the gospel.
That's going to be significant. I also
think, let me just add, I'm struck by this
book on Daniel's prayer life. Again, not
from a religious standpoint of if we pray
more, then we're more godly. No, it just
reflects his faith in prayer, and I love
that. It shows both a shaping of structure
in Daniel 6, like he prayed three times a
day, even with the threat, right? And he's
like, no, I'm going to morning, afternoon,
like his whole life was framed around his
time with the Lord. And then you see in
the rest of Daniel, how prayer is so
covenantal. He prays that prayer of
confession for the people in Daniel 9. You
see a model of prayer, invocation,
confession, and petition. In Daniel 10,
you see the angelic being comes and says,
Daniel, I was fighting over there in that
other region of the land, but because you
prayed, I showed up. And I was like, whoa,
that's like, Wow, there's a spiritual
reality to this. So I'm challenged as a
takeaway of like living here in my own
prayer life. So I'm just, I'm kind of
ad-libbing all over the place, but that
conviction there, but also they're called
to be a blessing because that's what
Daniel did. The life of prayer that he had
is remarkably challenging to me about how
much it framed his everyday life. And it
also, the ways that he prayed is super
challenging for me as a follower of Jesus
living in exile. Again, all of this under
like what Jesus has done for us in light
of the good news, right? The gospel is the
ABCs and A through Z of the Christian
life. And so framing it all under the fact
that Jesus is the greater, true and
greater Daniel. No, I love that. I think
you're really clear. And I think the
prayer part is powerful. So we talk about
the Bible, it's descriptive, not
prescriptive. So you take Daniel 6, it's
describing a life of prayer. It's not
prescribing us to pray three times a day.
And I think what we're wrestling with with
the book of Daniel is, you know, your
version of praying three times a day is
probably gonna look really different than
Daniel's. God might actually, because
Jesus is beautiful and inspiring you, you
might pray three times a day. We're not
taking that off the table. But I think
what you're inspiring and saying what this
book does is you sit down and you look at
the descriptive life of Daniel as someone
prayerful, surrendering to God's will,
trying to follow it. What does that look
like? And even the conviction side,
there's some meetings or there's some
activities, there's things that you'll
probably say no to based on your values,
but then there's other times that you will
have dinner with people. And the whole
point of the gospel leading us is we can't
give you a right or wrong except if you're
living a prayerful, dependent life. Do you
think I'm hearing you right? Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah. I mean, exactly. Right.
What is it? First Thessalonians 5, right?
Pray always, right? Rejoice. Right. So no
doubt about that. And so, yeah, I'm not
saying, Hey, look, you know, if you're a
real committed follower of Jesus living
out the gospel, you better, you know, get
your alarm set at 8, 12 and 5 or whatever.
Right. Well, we're, we're great at being
Pharisees. We'll always fall into that.
But what does it mean? Yeah. How does the
gospel create such a, relational deepening
of drawing near and abiding in Christ that
shapes the way that we live, think,
breathe, and move. And just like you said,
there's areas in which we engage in. We
stand firm because it's out of obedience
to Jesus, but in other places we are
engaging our neighbors in love. And
Galatians 5, 6, right? What does faith
expressing itself in love look like? Love,
you know, to Lord and loving our neighbor
out of the love in which He has first
loved us. So right on. I would 100%. Well,
Paul, this has been really great. So I
just want to hold up the book again. It's
a great study to get started. I've already
been thumbing through it a little bit
more. Why don't I give you the last word?
What do you want to leave our listeners
and readers of the book of Daniel? What's
one final impression that you want to
leave them with? Hmm. I like even the last
verse in Daniel, where in light of
everything in exile, the message is, in
light of the fact that the gospel is true,
it says, go your way, Daniel, and live for
Jesus. Stand firm because God is
sovereign, Jesus is the true and better,
and you will take your allotted place. And
we know as followers of Jesus in the
gospel, it's not something we earn, but we
know Jesus is coming to make all things
new. I love that. Jesus, that's our hope.
Stand firm in the gospel. And, you know,
go your way being faithful, living out the
beauty of Jesus. So that last sentence is
like, oh, that hit me too. Like, yes,
that's such a good word. And I would want
to share that as the, you know, closing
part of what I would impart to anyone
listening to this. Paul, thank you so
much. If people wanted to find more things
by you, where's the best place to find
you? You can go to our church website,
RedeemerSD.org. Our YouTube has different
sermons and resources. Our webpage does
too. So that could be some of the ways to
find out more. Awesome. Paul, thank you so
much for joining us. This concludes the
Understanding Daniel podcast episode.
Thank you so much for joining us.