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We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
So here we are, a tough
conversation has been had.
This client that we think checks
the boxes of being a good client is
really upset with the first piece.
Our strategist is like,
yeah, this is tough.
Like ideally someone
else can take this over.
This is not like a good natural fit.
Like she's also frustrated
and she should be right.
And she's great.
I think it was like Thanksgiving
was approaching or something.
I don't know the exact timing.
And then shortly thereafter, you have
like a couple more weeks of work.
And then that whole, like.
Christmas, New Year's holidays
there, and we're behind on content.
We're not a tiny agency that just started.
If this is like your third client or
you're just managing three or four
clients, there's no question what you
do, you step in and take care of it.
But when you have 15 to 20 clients,
you have a team of five, 10, 15 people.
You're trying to scale this business,
get the leads up, get the hiring and
recruiting up, and you're trying to,
you know, that cliche work on the
business and not in the business.
And this one client is upset with the
first piece and you have an employee.
I would ask this of the audience.
What do you do then?
In this episode, we want to tell this
story that just happened over December,
right before the holiday break.
That, um, kind of was like a tough
situation where it's not clear what the
right answer is, if you're trying to
scale your business, what you should do.
And basically what happened was we closed.
What we both think is
a really nice client.
They signed a one year contract.
And then, um, we, we had one of our like
great experienced strategists on it.
We wrote this first piece for them,
the product and kind of their story
is we knew it was a little bit tricky.
It's a little bit nuanced.
We wrote this first story, which is.
Not really an SEO piece.
It was like this kind of what we've
called like content brand, like these
disruption stories, just kind of
telling their overall founding story.
And they came back and said,
this was November, right?
Towards the end of November.
Yeah.
Very end of November.
And they came back and said,
basically like, can we have a call?
Because like, it's not good, which like,
I think people need to understand for us.
That, that's a big deal, like we're, we're
known for extremely high quality writing.
We charge a premium for it, like we're
just kind of known for it, and we take it
really personally and really seriously.
Yeah,
and it was the first time that's
happened in probably over a year for us.
So I would say this kind of, yeah, this
was more common, I would say, earlier in.
The business when we didn't have our
training process down and that kind
of stuff, but we haven't had a client
come back on a first piece and, and
have really critical feedback like
that a long time, or maybe, maybe
they'll have some comments, but it
wasn't to the, the state where they
were wanting to get on a call and
talk through it.
Yeah, and it was tough.
And I think one thing we can say, I
think is so we had this like what our
call with one of the founders who left
the feedback and he just you could
tell he was frustrated because he.
Had trouble like articulating all of
his concerns which means like, you know
Like when you get a piece of written
content and you're just like I don't
even know where to begin Like that's
like kind of how you feel That's kind
of like where you were just like all
over the place and like and he was
clearly frustrated Um, I was frustrated
as well in that conversation But in the
end we could kind of see I started to
understand his, like, actual concerns
with the writing there and the story.
And I, like, I sat down
and read the piece again.
Now, mind you, the strategists did
not write it completely by themselves.
I worked with her in that case
and heavily edited the piece.
So I felt like it was sort
of a, I don't know, like
a ding.
Yeah, you felt like the feedback
was directed at you because
you, you were so involved in
the process.
And since this conversation and this
story is about, and a lot of this series
is about kind of the emotional journey as
well of trying to scale a business, like.
Let's get into that.
Like I, he, he made this comment about
like, this doesn't feel like what
we've seen from grow and convert.
And I was so that's when I started
to get upset because I was like,
homie, who do you think wrote a lot
of the grow and convert content?
Like, you know what I mean?
Like you and I have written it.
So like a lot of the content
you see on growandconvert.
com, like I wrote it.
Like, and I wrote this.
So like, I wrote both of them.
And so I started to like, it
was, it was a tough conversation.
But after you kind of calmed down, and
you said this a lot, like, Never send
an email or whatever when you're angry
like yeah, and you were you were
visibly angry on that call Yeah,
we're at the end.
I think we
I think I had a step in and just take
over because I could There I don't know
after working with you for so long.
I definitely know you Really well to the
point where I'm like, okay, this is not
going to go well if you just keep talking.
So I'm just going to step in and fix it.
I mean, as a side note, people talk
about like, whether you should have
a co founder or not, like downside
of co founder, you have to split
all profits by 50 percent upside.
You can just check out at half
a call when you're upset and
then they can kind of take over.
And we've done the inverse too.
For sure.
So Benji took over.
And the best part was at the end,
like, Benji, like, repairs all, like,
things, and, like, everyone's good.
And he's like, okay, I'm glad we could,
like, come to this nice understanding.
And then he goes, I think I
won everyone over except Davis,
who's still upset or something.
And I was like, yeah, I'll
talk to you later, goodbye.
So like, after we calmed down,
we had a conversation with the
strategist and us, and I think we
all three agreed that this wasn't a
natural fit for her writing style.
She agreed too.
She was like, this is just
kind of like a pain for me.
And so, but.
Now, let's get into like, what do you do
as a business owner in these situations?
Well, as we mentioned,
even before we get there, I think
what's important just when we have
these challenges on the writing side
from, from past experience, it usually
stems from what we call clarity of
thought from the interview itself.
Like the, the narrative hasn't, especially
if the company is earlier on or hasn't
done a lot of content marketing before,
A lot of the issue with just getting
that narrative right can come from not
really having clarity in terms of what
you want to say, and, and only really
realizing that once you see it, see your
thoughts fully written down on paper.
I don't know if that was
the case in this situation,
but I found her
not knowing what I don't know if that
was the case in this specific situation.
Cause you were a lot more involved on
the writing side, but I know in the
past, especially with this disruption
story, because it is a story that's
so fundamental to your business.
It's basically telling a story about
what you're changing in the industry
and what you're doing differently.
And I think in the past, when we've
done these, these are probably the most
challenging stories for us to write.
For sure.
But a lot of the challenges in
writing them, I think, stems from not
having a ton of clarity in what you
want to say in the specific story.
Or, yeah, just not having
the thesis fully fleshed out.
And I would say when it goes really
well is usually when the company's been
around for a while, like 5 10 years.
And they're very clear on the problems
that they're solving in the market.
They've told this story a ton of times,
and so it's much easier to write.
Yeah, I mean, I know that in the
conversation, he, it became clear
that he was like, Well, when I
read your guys content, and he
meant Our posts on growingconvert.
com and, and I was like, Oh my
God, like he wants us to turn
their ideas into growingconvert.
com ideas.
Here's, here's the thing.
This is a little bit of an aside
to what I wanted to talk to in
the video, but it's interesting.
Like what we write for a lot
of our clients is not the same
as what we write for ours.
As we mentioned, even in the previous
video, like launching the series,
we, we haven't done SEO content
until the last couple of years.
So a lot of the stuff we wrote
was just like ideas that we
thought were really interesting.
Painpoint SEO is not an SEO
piece of content, you know, like
we, there's no search volume
for that when we published it.
Um, and so it takes a lot more than
writing as I think saying what you're
saying in different words, it takes a
lot more than writing to get quality
of content that we have on our site.
Where it takes, you need those ideas.
Yeah.
We'll also just, we can't
manufacture that for another company.
They need to have those ideas now
for our normal clients, if they have
products, whether it be e commerce
products, SAS product, a service
business or whatever, like it.
And you're just kind of selling
that and doing bottom of the funnel.
This is all just like a site that
this is irrelevant because you
have some product or whatever.
If some accounting software and
you're ranking for best accounting
software, you're not trying to
create some new framework of doing
accounting, like pain point SEO.
That's just not a thing.
You're just selling the features of it.
And we do that extremely well.
We rank for that.
We get conversions from it, whatever.
But in this case, all of a sudden I
realized halfway through the call.
Oh shit.
Like this guy wants growing convert.
com.
That's like,
well, there's, there's also just a
lot of back and forth on the ideas.
Like when we come up with an original
idea, like even pain point SEO, there
was probably five to 10 hours, just
a back and forth conversation about.
What are the key arguments
that we want to make?
What's the order of the arguments?
All that kind of stuff.
And I think that's what a lot
of people don't see when it
comes to the writing process.
It's like there's multiple conversations
of us trying to poke holes in each
other's arguments before we even get
to the writing step, just to make
sure that we have a very clear idea.
And so when that's not done,
well, I don't know if it was
done on the client side, but I
think when you're a third party
vendor and you, um, have like a one
30, 60 minute interview, clients
feel like that's a decent amount
of time that they've given you.
And then they're like, okay, like
produce something like grown convert.
com.
And then as you're saying, what Benji
and I do when we produce some of those
like big articles, a lot of them, even
the ones that aren't as well known is we.
Someone drafts their initial notes.
Actually, here's like the typical
process, um, is someone has an idea.
We call each other and we're like,
Hey, I have this idea for whatever.
And you explain it on the phone and
then, or sometimes we're just talking
about some other things in the business.
And then it comes up and you're like, you
know, it'd be an interesting blog post.
Then the other person is
like, well, what about this?
What about that?
And you kind of like thinking it through,
then you sort of do this half draft.
One of us does like kind of a
half draft outline, sends it over.
And then we probably have another
conversation where we're like,
here's all the problems with this.
And you're like, Oh, that's
actually a good point.
So then I would write it this way instead.
And then we would kind of talk
it through and we almost kind of
outlined it again on the phone.
And those are like long conversations.
It takes a lot of work.
Yeah.
So I guess now how, how does
that change then being agency
doing this for a client?
Well, so going back to the story
of what I wanted to kind of present
to the audience to think about.
Is let's just, so we got into that
detail of us writing, but, but
let's zoom back into the story.
So here we are, a tough conversation
has been had this client that we think
checks the boxes of being a good client
is really upset with the first piece.
Our strategist is like,
yeah, this is tough.
Like ideally someone
else can take this over.
This is not like a good fit.
Um, natural fit.
Like she's also frustrated
as she should be.
Right.
And, and, and she's great.
And then.
Like, I think it was like Thanksgiving
was approaching or something.
I don't know the exact timing.
And then shortly thereafter, you have
like a couple more weeks of work.
And then that whole, like
Christmas, New Year's holidays
there, and we're behind on content.
Now, then think about what we
said in the previous video.
We're not a tiny agency that just started.
If this is like your third client or
you're just managing three or four
clients, there's no question what you do.
You step in and take care of it.
But when you have 15 to 20 clients.
You have a team of five, 10, 15 people.
You're trying to scale this
business, get the leads up, get
the hiring and recruiting up.
And you're trying to, you
know, that cliche work on the
business and not in the business.
And this one client is
upset with the first piece.
And you have an employee, I would ask
this of the audience, what do you do then?
Yeah,
and I mean, to cut to the chase, we
talked through all different options.
We said, is this a good
client fit for the company?
We had extensive conversations about that.
Is it a good strategist and writer fit?
And then what, what do we do when
they've signed a year long contract?
Because that's actually new
to our business as well.
We had never really signed year long
contracts before a few months ago.
And so we, we never really
thought through or anticipated
what would happen if the client.
The client wasn't happy with the work.
Right.
Or that we wanted to not
work with the client.
Sure.
Both sides.
It's embarrassing to admit, but there
are some, some gaps in thoroughness of
how we structure that one year contract.
Um, So yeah, like basically the, the, the
question at hand is, do you step in and
work in the business and it's an emotional
question because there's definitely
like the emotions, at least in my head.
So to cut to the chase, I did.
Right.
We decided like I got to step in and
I basically rewrote that whole piece
myself and I kind of hated doing it.
Right.
Like I also think it's, it's important
to talk about what we just went through.
So what did, so we decided that the
client was a good fit and especially, so
some of the key things in the call that
came out was they, they said that they
had been trying to find an agency for.
I don't know, one or two years.
And they really wanted to make this work.
They said, if we don't work with you,
we're probably not going to invest
in content because we've already gone
through the whole vetting process.
And you guys are the people to do this.
And that, that just.
personally told us that they're invested
in this and they do want to make it work.
We've had clients in the past where
we've had these tough conversations
and they didn't have that positive
attitude about things and we
decided it was better to part ways.
And so I do think that was a plus for
making sure this is going to work.
Uh, to then, then we asked
the person on our team if we
thought this was a good fit.
And at first she said, no, I want
to be taken off this account.
Um, but after you stepped in, I think,
well, that's later in the
story, but like, okay.
But
then one, one other detail before we
get to that, I think what we decided
to do was then pause for a one month.
So not accept their, their payment for
December, because we thought it was
important to get the pieces, right?
Make sure we're caught up before we get
back into the rhythm of producing pieces.
And so now you can kind
of continue your story.
By the way,
that important detail.
Thank you for mentioning it.
That's a 10, 000 decision.
We can say that even though we're
normally not going to be talking
about dollars here because that
we, we, that our rate is public.
Oh, sorry.
They're on a one year contract.
So it's an 8, 000 decision.
The point is it was not a
trivial decision, right?
And then, so we're pausing for
December while we still work.
So our team still gets paid for that work.
We're just taking that hit.
So we definitely, we opted for the do a
lot of things to make this client happy.
We're basically.
Taking a bet, right?
From a business perspective, you're
making a bet, um, to sacrifice both
in this case, my time and are like
energy or whatever, and, and, and
dollars, some thousands of dollars.
Um, for potentially having a happy
client long term now to sort of
reveal, like us, I'll say my opinion,
like everyone listening doesn't
necessarily like know you and me, like
personally, the way we know each other.
Let's be honest.
That was the only decision we were
going to make just like knowing
our personalities and how we've run
this business from the beginning.
That was the only decision
that we were going to make.
But the emotional part I
wanted to talk about is like.
Definitely in my head then as I am
spending like nights and weekends.
I have two small kids Um, like,
and I'm, you know, it's like,
we're, we're trying to do all
these other things in the business.
There's still like a business to run.
There's all these other things.
And I'm also, speaking of working
in the business instead of on it,
I'm also like helping edit and do
stuff to like train these writers,
um, to help the recruiting process.
That's like kind of one of my big
like roles I'm playing in there.
On top of all of that, spending the
evenings like trying to write this piece.
You have thoughts, like I hear the
voices of mentors and books and
podcasts and things we've listened
about like growing and scaling a
business where it says, like, you need
to graduate to a point where you're
not doing the work where your team is.
And it definitely makes you think
like, have we progressed anywhere?
Like, am I just back to like, you know,
like day two where I'm, we're doing the
work, like, we're like, what's going on?
We've been at this for seven years.
I shouldn't have to do this.
There's a lot of that questioning
and to be honest, I don't
know what the right answer is.
Maybe some more experienced business
owner that would say, you know, listening
to the story would say like, you're an
idiot and you shouldn't have stepped in
and you should sacrifice that client,
like either the client is okay with
your team executing or the client
churns, but your job as the business
owner is to work on the business and
focus on lead gen and recruiting or
whatever to get that machinery three.
Like work on having the machinery
be able to execute this.
Another thought I thought is like
the analogy to a physical product,
like an e commerce business.
Is like one of the founders or like, you
know, executives or something of some
like seven figure e commerce business.
Are they stepping in and
personally handling the return of
a particular unsatisfied customer?
I don't know.
Yeah, I would, I would say
in certain situations, yes.
I do think so.
I think they want to win over a customer.
That's, that's important to them
or the situation is so bad that it
requires them to step in and handle it.
I do think that there are situations and
I will say from my perspective, like.
I hear everything you're saying, but the
flip side is if we can fix that first
piece and get the client to a point
where they're happy, then this becomes
an account that does just run itself.
Yeah, that's the
bet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's what I said.
Like, that's the gamble
or the bet we made.
So to continue the story.
So those are the thoughts, but we,
but we did it because like what I was
saying about Benji and I's personality
that maybe people don't know is like.
That's kind of how we've run
the business from the beginning.
For whatever reason, you and I are
just not okay with kind of this
churn and burn agency model that
like agencies do where they're just
like churning a ton of clients.
They're just getting a bunch
of people into the top of their
funnel and like they're not
stepping in and fixing anything.
I feel like if clients put their
trust in us, we want to deliver.
It's like that, that's
just how we've always been.
If like, we, we care about the quality
of the work and for someone to say that
they're not happy with something, we
want to, we want to jump in and fix it.
So like, from your
perspective, then what were.
Like, digging into the piece,
we're getting into the details now.
What were the issues that
you had to come in and fix?
And then how did that set up?
How did your interpretation of
the fixes, and then going in and
fixing it, and then communicating
that to the person working on this
account, how did that resolve itself?
So
these disruption stories
Do we have a piece on it?
What, what can
people, content brand has a little
piece on it, but maybe that's a good
idea is we should, we should write
a full piece on these disruption
stories.
Yeah.
But nonetheless, in the show notes or
whatever, we can link to content brand.
Um, we should.
And so, so, so now to get into the content
marketing weeds, um, you read that the
disruption stories are basically this
kind of first piece we do that tells.
The, you know, kind of the, here's
the problem in the industry that
our whole business and our whole
product is like aiming to solve.
So it's kind of a really important piece
that we ended up linking to in a lot of
the later, like quote unquote SEO pieces.
And there were two big
things in the writing.
I think number one was our first
piece, the one that did not work out.
The story it was telling
wasn't simple enough.
It tried to include too many aspects.
Of what the founder said, like
their software is disrupting.
That's actually a good point
because the product itself, I think
one of the hardest parts about doing
our jobs is that you have to, like,
there's all these different features
and there's all these different use
cases and you have to figure out what's
important enough to communicate to the
customer.
And when you talk to a founder, so
I remember this vividly, um, I was
walking my dog, like down through the
window that I'm looking at, like I
took a left and I walked around this
block and I remember where I was when
I was, I was like, and I'm listening
to this interview that, um, our content
strategist did with the founders.
And I listened to two of them.
One of them was the kickoff interview
that you and I were on as well.
And I'm trying to, like, get back
in the headspace being like, what
am I going to do with this piece?
Right.
Um.
And I remember sort of starting to like.
Get a feel for the story and being like,
Oh, you know what this software and
because we both approached to be like,
the software is kind of complicated or
like the story is really complicated.
And I remember starting to think
that distilling that you're talking
about started to come clear to me.
I was like, Oh, actually, there's
actually a decently simple version of it.
And then I also started to
hear these little tidbits.
That the founders said to our strategist
that justified these other parts that
she had put in that first piece that they
were later like objecting to and her and I
had this conversation where she was like.
Dude, like they said all of
these things, that's what we're,
that's what I put in there.
And like, our team is
awesome and she's awesome.
So like, I'm like, I know I'm
working, we're like, this is like a
smart person who's like kicked ass
on like a lot of accounts, right?
So that's something that's
important to be said.
You know, but there's like
stylistic differences or whatever.
So that was thing number one where I was
like, okay, like there's a distilling.
Like almost the way we, and she
was sort of interpreting it.
It was like, you can't take everything
they're saying too literally.
And also founders, they
talk in weird directions.
Like it would be so nice from a content
person than a writer's perspective.
If a founder, just in an interview,
just spit out a perfect story
arc, that's not like how they
talk about their own business.
They're going to talk about some
random side feature that they're
thinking about because it's some
new thing they're releasing.
And in reality, when you step back,
it's just not that important to the arc.
It's just like, they're just thinking
about it because like, that's
what they're working on right now.
Like, you know, when you talk to software
founders and they're always like.
Well, we don't do that yet,
but we're about to release.
They always love to do this.
Caveats like, we're gonna
release this, we're gonna release
that, we're gonna release this.
You're like, sorry, what is the
main thing that you are disrupting?
Yeah.
What, what, what do you do
right now?
Yeah.
Like what, like what is selling right
now for Like, they love to talk about the
future 'cause that's where their mind is.
That's where anyone's mind is, right?
As a business owner.
Um, and so you, you gotta be able
to kind of see through that and
like help them not be their worst
enemy, them being the founders.
And be like, okay, here is that
arc, this is very hard work.
And another aside, you and
I have talked about this.
Like, I feel like there are consulting
companies that charge like hundreds of
thousands of dollars for some like one
month session that involves like a few
interviews or whatever, to like tell
people their story, there'll be like,
this is a positioning or we're hiring,
you know, like a McKinsey or whatever.
Like I've seen big companies do this
and that they basically kind of do this.
We do it for our rinky dink 10k
rate, but it's like one month we
do one piece like this, but it's
an important piece that like people
can't articulate their own story.
So that's.
I think number one, that is like hard
work and back to the emotional story.
I think I said this to you a lot when
I was complaining during this process.
I was like, I feel like I'm doing
just like personal consulting.
Yeah.
Like Davis, Davis, personal consulting.
Like, this is like a big deal, like,
like telling the arc of the story.
But at the same time, I think that's
what they felt like they were buying.
And I don't know, maybe that's on us
to like, not be clear or whatever.
Yeah.
But the one really positive thing, I
think coming out of this story, the
story is always the hardest to get right.
But once you nail this story, all
the subsequent pieces become easier
because now you have buy in from
the founders that you've nailed
their, their value props and their
features and all, all the key points.
And so if we can get this right,
it should make the account go
so much smoother down the road.
Yeah, and
that's what kept me going is that bet.
I was like, okay, like if we do this,
like it can go smoother or whatever.
Um, and then the second part was just a
writing stylistic thing of simplifying
the actual writing that regardless of
that overall arc, even if that's right
in telling each part is not trying to
include too much is just telling just
the core parts and moving on or whatever.
So, um.
I rewrote it, like, you know,
the strategist and I kind
of did some editing passes.
We sent it to them.
And then that was like a
big nervous point, right?
Where you're like, okay, I
like invested all this time.
Like what if they come back and are like,
this is still horrible or something,
you know, then you're just like, um, and
they came back with almost zero edits.
They were like, this is awesome.
This is the exact voice we
were looking for or whatever.
So that sounds like, okay,
that's a nice end of the story.
It wasn't, at least for me.
I remember when I saw that and said,
like, this is the voice we're looking for.
I think I slacked you.
I was still kind of upset because I
was like, well, so now what do we do?
So they're looking for my voice.
And that's consistent with what
they're saying of like, this is
not the stuff on growing convert.
com.
But I'm like, I'm sorry.
That's not what we're selling.
We're not selling Davis
personal writing services LLC.
Like that's not our business.
So like, what do we do now?
How
did you then convey your writing
style to, to the writers who
are going to be writing on
this?
I'm not sure I did much more than be
like, this is the piece they're happy
with, like, let's write it like this.
So then we're working with
two people at this point.
We have a brand new brand, like
relatively brand new writer that
were, that is writing on the piece.
And then we have this
experienced strategist.
So we're trying frantically to then make
up for these November pieces in December,
which we're not charging the client for.
Um, and December goes by like
this when you're an agency, right?
Because like the last two
weeks are almost shot.
So you're just trying to get through this.
You're trying to convey.
So we think we had like three
more pieces to do or something.
One of them went to the new strategist.
And I'm basically like
kind of what you're saying.
I was on the phone with him.
I remember I was pacing in this room
to my right, like walking around.
I like to walk and talk.
Um, and so I'm like walking around,
basically outlining the story for him.
Then the strategist is
writing the remaining two.
And I'm basically like,
just follow this arc.
So we're doing that, there's
edits, there's like other
accounts that I'm worried about.
It was like, kind of a stressful December.
Um, a rather stressful December.
And then we sent one more piece over, I
think that she did, our strategist did,
but rewrote in the kind of style and story
of that disruption story that they liked.
And they were happy with that too.
And that was like a big relief.
I was like, okay, like I can now see
the light at the end of the tunnel.
And then to, to fast forward,
then after the full break or
whatever, I had to do a lot of like
helping write for the new writer.
That's kind of understandable,
but there's some promise there.
And after all of this,
we had a call with them.
Um, just this week.
Yesterday morning.
Yeah.
Yesterday morning.
Um,
And by the way, all this feedback
so far is happening asynchronously.
So we haven't actually gotten on
the phone to hear how they feel.
It's just kind of these short comments
going back and forth through Trello.
Yeah.
And they seemed happy.
Yeah,
they seemed happy.
I asked point blank, like, how
do you feel about the writing
from a month ago to today?
And they said like nine day difference.
We're super happy now.
So I don't know.
I,
and the strategist, I was like,
well, now you're writing these pieces
and they're happy with your pieces.
Like, do you still want
to come off of this?
Because going to the big business
thing, we have this supply issue.
What we'll probably record more videos
on of just because Actually, this is
the perfect story because our writing
is so sort of, I don't know, like
meticulous and we have these high
standards and it's really difficult and
we hold ourselves to it and we come in
and we fix these problems or whatever.
It's really hard for us to find writers.
We cannot, we have an application
spreadsheet, like at this
database of people who've applied
that I think is at 2000 deep.
And it's, you know, we have a team
of 10 or something like, it's like,
like we do a lot of filtering.
There's a lot of
frustration, like it's tough.
And so we don't have this huge bench
of people just waiting at, you know,
with like no work on their plate.
That's not a thing.
And so it's not that easy.
If she is like, I can't do
this, it's not that easy.
So I have to train this new writer
that I'm saying I have to like rewrite
some of his stuff still right now.
And like, I don't know if he's
going to end up working out.
There's kind of like a lot of unknowns.
But because then, we fixed that, she
was able to emulate what we wrote in
those pieces, they were still happy.
I'm like, well, you also spent a lot
of time, and she's like, hey, like,
I'm down to continue now, right?
With this.
So it's like, whew!
And I was like, oh my god, I remember at
that conversation, I was like, oh my god,
January might be way better, because now
it's like What was just like me stepping
in, questioning, like, what am I doing?
Like, you know, we're this deep
into this thing or whatever.
Um, and now it turned into, um, okay,
like, the account is now in good standing.
We have, the team can,
like, take over again.
I thought that was like a big relief.
Now,
you know, I agree because the flip
side would have been if she comes off
the account, now we also have to find
a new strategist to take over, or one
of us has to step in as strategist
in the interim while we find and
train someone new onto the account.
And so, Yeah, there were just a lot
of things that could have gone wrong.
Like, they weren't happy with the writer.
You were writing.
Does that continue?
We need to find a new strategist.
Like, luckily, everything
ended up working out.
Clients happy.
We're happy.
From here on out, I personally
think this is gonna be a really
good engagement going forward.
Like, the trust seems to be there now.
Um, so, yeah.
I'm happy with the outcome.
But, it was a very tough decision.
When we were having to
make it.
And I think like bigger lesson here
is just, you know, there's that
famous line of Paul Graham from Y
Combinator for the VC funded startup
crowd, which is obviously not us.
Right.
We're, we're definitely like a
bootstrapped small business, sort
of a different culture, but still
like do things that don't scale.
And the biggest, you know, like one
of the biggest famous examples I
hear about is like Airbnb that at
the beginning, they were literally
like the founders were on Craigslist.
Um, just emailing people who are
listing their places and saying,
Hey, people can stay at, you can
stay in my living room or whatever.
And being like, Hey, we
created this new site.
You want to, can we list
it there for you for free?
And they were also like knocking
on doors at apartments or whatever.
What no one talks about that
this story gets at is, so
when do you stop doing that?
Like at what stage is
it okay to still do it?
And at what stage is it
that you don't do it?
If we are a 20 million agency, if we
have a team of, of, well, forget the
dollars, like, so we have a team of
what, 10 to 15, if we have a team of 50
or a hundred, of course, it doesn't make
sense to do that.
Well, there's probably some middle
manager at that point, or someone that's
underneath us that has enough experience
to be able to step into these situations.
Yeah.
Which by the way, and
we've had that.
But unfortunately they decided
to take another career path.
So that's, that's a
conversation for another day.
Yeah, we had that for a long time.
Just amazing.
Um, yeah, we've just had like a lot
of challenges on the supply side.
Like it's like, so people, like
we had someone on pregnancy
leave, we had this person leaving.
So obviously that creates more constraints
and challenges for us in the interim.
And so I think in these specific
situations, that's also.
What's leading into stepping
in to the business a lot more.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was taking
over doing stuff in the maternity
leave situation as well.
So it's like, it's funny, like
at a certain size, you're like,
almost like a tweener company.
Where you're like, well, we're not like
tiny where it's obvious we do all this.
We're not so big that when someone
goes on maternity leave, there's just
like, I don't know, some set process
and there's five other people to take
over or something like that and there's
like all these directors or something.
Yeah, like that middle management,
you're kind of in between.
And so you're, you're trying to
look, feel and act like a bigger
company that where you're delegated.
But there are situations that there is
no other option besides you stepping
in other than letting a customer
be unhappy or letting it churn.
And that's a decision where I'm
not sure what the right answer is.
This is what we're doing.
For us, like, number one thing above
all else we've decided, like, in
terms of Values to run a company.
And you know what, like, this is
maybe another lesson that I didn't
think was going to come out of this
conversation, but it's interesting.
One is like, at least one thing
that I can say we're confident in.
Cause like a lot of this story has been
me like questioning what's the right
decision, but one thing is like, know
where you are on the spectrum of like,
what are the most important things?
What are the values of your company in
terms of like, what is not compromisable?
And we haven't intentionally
articulated this.
Like we don't, Benji and I
don't have like a document
somewhere where we've said this.
We haven't like said to each other,
but we both just kind of know.
Yeah.
I bet you if someone were to ask us,
how would you handle this situation?
And then they gave us multiple choices.
I think we would probably
pick the same ones.
I, we're aligned on principles
and values, I think, even though
we haven't necessarily done an
exercise to write them down.
Yeah.
And so the one here is like, we
just both know the way we operate.
We've operated this from day
one is like uncompromising.
Like the biggest thing for us is
client happiness and like high, high
quality of output of our work product.
And to us, it's like.
Look, that client stuff
could happen next month.
Oh, we lost blah, blah,
blah, big customers.
Something, something happened.
We're going in a different direction,
even though there's a year contract,
like, let's be honest, small businesses,
like what are you going to do?
Enforce the contract.
You're going to hire a bunch
of lawyers to go chase this.
Like, you know, like the stuff could
happen and they could go bankrupt.
Anything can happen.
And all of that time and whatever
could be wasted, or they reach the
year and they don't decide to renew.
As we explained in the last video, our
year contract is discounted pretty heavily
by 20 percent with the hopes that when
they reach a year, the results are so good
that most clients then last for a long
time, and we're trying to make that bet.
All of these things could go wrong, but
it's sort of like, we're still okay with
it because we just know that we are very
firm in our value is, but at least We did
not let someone leave saying we hired grow
and convert and their work product sucks.
That's the worst thing for us and we
will just, we're just not accepting it.
And if that requires me stepping
in and working in the evening, even
though like I'm questioning, are we
too big for me to be doing this now?
And kind of being miserable for a
little bit and working over Thanksgiving
week and all this, so be it.
That's sort of just like, We've decided
that that's where we stand and maybe
some other business, if you're, if
you're like, I'm not doing this and
I'm trying to scale my business.
So be it just be firm.
Like I could see there's a, there's a
world in which you make the opposite
bet that you're like, no, in my
business, or at least at this stage,
what's important to me is I am not
stepping in on a single account issue.
I have a team and my value is that
like, I'm working on the business
and I will not do it very like kind
of four hour work week or whatever.
And the team just has to figure it out.
I've listened to podcasts of people that
have scaled businesses that say that
they did that at some point, for sure.
And so I listened to one the other day.
It was like, I had a day job.
I literally couldn't.
So like from the beginning, the
team just had to handle situations
and then what you're accepting.
So, and then that's a sacrifice.
So you have to be okay with the downsides
of whichever side you're taking.
And for me, I'm okay with the downside
of like, my life sucked for a little
bit and I had to do a bunch of work and
I was questioning things and it like,
you know, whatever the downside of
the other side is you have to be okay
with a client churning with a client
saying bad things about you elsewhere.
Like we had a bad experience
with this agency, whatever.
That's your downside that
you have to be okay with.
And the plus side is.
You then can spend the time that
I spent rewriting that piece.
You can spend it working on the business.
You could have been getting more
leads, growing top of the funnel.
You're just like backfilling.
You're filling in clients
that are churning because
they're unhappy with the team.
That is a decision, you know, I
think could go either way for us.
We were on one side of that.
Um, you may be on another side,
but like, I think being very
clear is probably a good thing.
Otherwise you're just kind of waffling.
So yeah, that's the story.
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