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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Paul: Oh, I note the little
TARDIS cupboard there.
Emily: yeah, a friend of
mine actually made that.
She made it like from
scratch, essentially.
It was for my wedding.
It was a wedding present, and I
keep all my paints and inks in it.
Paul: Oh boy, cool.
Emily: yeah, it's, friends from way back
in, uh, high school and stuff, and so,
Paul: Oh, that's wonderful.
Emily: yeah,
Paul: Oh,
Emily: super talented.
Kate Marshall married to
Dave Marshall at Dark Horse,
Paul: oh, right, cool.
Emily: Thank you for being here.
I think we're going to be
starting, uh, Jeremy is,
Jeremy: yeah, I'm just filling
in some blanks here real
Emily: okay.
Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight we're talking about an extremely
70s classic horror suspense film.
It's so 70s that there's a 10 minute sex
scene between Donald Sutherland and Julie
Christie almost right at the beginning.
We're talking about Don't Look Now.
I'm your host, Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and Cenobites.
First, they're here to challenge
the sexy werewolf, sexy vampire,
binary, and my co host, Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Oh, man.
This this was a lo I
kinda wanna visit Italy?
But also really don't?
Emily: I mean if you want to visit
Venice, there's only a few more hours.
Ben: I've been to I've been to
Venice and I got extremely lost.
I spent about four hours wandering Venice
trying to find my hotel, most of the
time being able to see my hotel, but
being powerless to find my way to it.
Because as it turns out, Google
Maps is extremely not helpful for
finding where you can cross canals.
Emily: How many times did you get mugged?
Ben: Every time I ate at a
restaurant or bought any souvenir,
Emily: Nice You
Jeremy: an incredible job of running
around Venice in the middle of the night
and not getting mugged in this movie.
And, uh, next up, the cinnamon roll of
Cenobites, our co host Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: know, I've seen a lot of I've
watched a lot of Hannibal I've watched
a lot of David Cronenberg movies we
all know this However, I've never
seen a sex scene so non Euclidean.
I don't know what was the point of some
of those moves, but I was intrigued.
Ben: that sex scene was non Newtonian.
Emily: Yeah, it was the closest I've ever
seen a sex scene come to a Klein bottle.
Like, it was so, like, M.
C.
Escher would be, like,
why didn't he do porn?
Maybe he did, I just don't know.
Jeremy: Great question.
Of our age, why didn't M.
C.
Escher do porn?
And to answer that, we have our
guest, writer of on and on from
Ahoy Comics and so many other
things, the inimitable Paul Cornell.
Paul, thanks for coming on.
Paul: Well, thank you, Ed.
These are the category things you
don't want to say near an AI art
machine, because MC Escher, porn.
I really don't want to put
that into a generator and see.
The, it would be, it would be
very, very bad to be mugged in
the middle of a horror movie.
It's kind of like, could you not?
I'm experiencing existential dread here.
Do not do anything as mundane to me.
Thank you, sir.
Goodbye.
Jeremy: mugging me.
Paul: Yes.
Emily: like, it would be a relief almost.
It's like, oh, this is a problem
I'm familiar with, other than
like, am I being haunted?
Am I going crazy?
Ben: Well, it's either...
It usually, I feel like it's either,
Oh, this is now somebody that,
the monster that's chasing me will
tear through and will get some
additional gore into the movie.
Or, or it's like, God damn, just
when my night was getting any worse.
It's like in Gremlins when the
gremlin gets a gun and it's like,
Jesus, of everything I had to
deal with, like, Great, now if I
survive, I have to go to the DMV.
Fuck!
Jeremy: funny you say that now because
just yesterday as part of my scary
movie month stuff, I watched for the
first time, Jason takes Manhattan, a
movie in which they fight Jason for an
hour and a half on a cruise ship just
to end up in New York and get mugged by
like ethnic street toughs five minutes
after arriving in New York, it's like,
Oh, this, it was everything else.
And now it's weirdly racist.
Cool.
Ben: so it's Jason takes
Fox News Manhattan,
Jeremy: Yes.
Emily: guess, yeah.
Ben: well, again, I, so I live in
Manhattan, and I work in a suburb
in Connecticut, so I am constantly
talking with people who get Whose
entire conception of New York is what
they get from the news, and so they
ask me about things that they see
going on in the city, and about how
dangerous and scary it must be, and I
constantly have to look at them and go,
What the fuck are you talking about?
Emily: New York is fun.
New York is cute.
I mean, yeah, there's a lot of like
rats and stuff, but like some of them
talk apparently, like, I don't know,
Ben: Some of them pilot you
and you can make great pizza!
Emily: Yeah, like compared to like, I
mean, San Francisco is like, there's a lot
of awful on the street in San Francisco.
And you know, I don't know how
much that is balanced by the
Ben: I will say, San Francisco's
the only city I've ever seen
+where I saw two homeless men
sitting on the sidewalk playing a
full game of Magic the Gathering.
Emily: That makes it seem less daunting.
I don't know, like, I think, I
think New York is, like, cute
Ben: I don't know what to do with that
fact, but I've had to live with it
now, with seeing it, for a decade now.
Emily: I mean, apparently
that's where wizards, like,
wizards are city people now.
Like, every city has wizards now.
And, you know, let's, let's
talk about this movie.
Jeremy: Yeah, so this is directed by
Nicholas Roeg, who, uh, also directed two
things we've talked about on here before.
Uh, I don't think either of which we've
actually covered, but we talked about
the original The Witches from 1990 which
is a weird fact that he directed both of
those movies, but also The Man Who Fell
to Earth a perennial Emily favorite.
Emily: I mean, it certainly is a movie.
Another movie with the, you know, the
sex scene in that movie was also very
non Euclidean, but it did include David
Bowie naked, which is, like, I'm making a
motion with my hand where there's like my
hand is here and then it goes up there.
Paul: Well, I, I think that
description probably doesn't
exactly define, but, but anyway,
Emily: well, yeah, I mean, it's
Ben: ah,
Emily: This is, this is, there's
a lot of geometry to be added
to, you know, levels of height
and standard and stuff like that.
But, um,
Ben: I mean, In terms of Grow or a Shower,
we know Bowie was nothing if not a shower.
Emily: listen, I, the first
time I saw that movie, I'm
sorry, I have to, I'm doing a
Ben: I had to make a
dick joke work somewhere.
Emily: Oh, yeah, no, we're, I'm
Jeremy: Oh, there will be plenty
of time for that in this film.
Emily: yeah.
The first time I ever watched The Man
Who Fell to Earth, it was on a television
that was muted in a Japanese goth bar.
And every time I looked at that screen,
different shit was happening that had
nothing to do, like, there was the
cheese train that came up, and then
they were taking David Bowie's eyes out,
and then suddenly it was the sex scene
with all the guns shooting and stuff.
And all I knew was that I just
needed to see it all the way
through because I needed context.
Turns out you don't need
context, but anyway.
Jeremy: just makes it more confusing.
Ben: Like, sometimes
that's the way to do it.
Like, I once saw the 2003 Daredevil
movie while hungover in a chicken
wing restaurant while Top 40 music
was playing and was on mute, and
I've never enjoyed that movie more.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I had an amazing time.
Emily: So Paul, what, what inspires
you to bring Don't Look Now to us?
Paul: well, I think this is
a staggering masterpiece.
I think this is amazing.
And I think since I, we had
my son, I appreciate it.
Hugely more.
It's so, it's so much about
grief, and it, that's actually
the horror at the centre of it.
it's the way those two, who we're
utterly on side with, you know, in
many horror movies, the people kind
of deserve what happens to them.
These two, we really like, and we really
want them to feel better, and the, the
way that she's finding ways to start
to process it, and I think he's just
fighting it off, he's just fending.
And it kind of comes and gets him.
And I think that's sort of the, the
killer, that he's chasing something,
maybe his own grief, and it does him in.
And he's come to Venice to work.
Because he can't stay at home, and where
he's come from is a place full of water!
Emily: Yeah.
Mm
Paul: And she drowned!
His little girl drowned.
And this is a change.
The Daphne du Maurier original short
story, The little girl died of illness.
And these genius writers, Alan
Scott and Chris Bryant, Because the
screenplay here is really detailed.
You know, Nicholas Roeg is just
basically filming this thing.
So, yeah, I, I mean, I don't know
how much we buy into auteur theory,
but this is a great screenplay.
And they have it that she, she drowned
and he comes to Venice to work.
I just find it tremendously moving
and sad, and I gotta say, that
sex scene, I think it's really
great and really important.
Um, when when Judy Christy first
reaches over and touches him and sort
of indicates, I'd like to get it on now
please, the look on his face, it's sort
of, Oh boy, this is a big deal, this is
kind of painful even, and this is the
first time since she died, it's gotta be.
And the way it intercuts between
them having sex and them tidying up
and putting clothes on afterwards
and getting ready to go out.
It's so intimate between
this couple and the audience.
I, I don't even think this
scene is particularly erotic.
I, I, it's not there, it's
not there to turn us on.
It's, it's there to really get us into
the heads of these two and, and to.
Make us relate to them hugely.
Because, honestly, without going
into personal detail, I think
we've all kind of been there.
And it's, it's not a feeling one gets from
any other love scene in any other movie.
And, you know, it just drags us in.
And the fact is, maybe it's all true
about the psychics, maybe it isn't, um,
that's left as a completely open question.
But at least Julie Christie is
starting to process her grief.
Donald Sutherland instead
is literally racing after it
can't be his daughter for real.
He knows that, and yet he's
still running after her.
Ben: And what's so key is that, like,
I feel like in so many of these horror
movies that you be like, oh, Julie
Christie, she's the one that's, like,
having an irrational response and holding
on and thinking that the ghost that
is in spirits is real, but she says
to rabbits, like, I know she's dead.
I, like, It's like she kind of does keep a
fairly healthy psychological perspective.
And I think you're so right.
I think that's ultimately where the
characters fates, differ is that
Julie Christie is attempting to
process and her story is processing
while Donald Sutherland is just
throwing himself deeper into denial.
Paul: yeah, and he's the one who
gets the kind of premonition.
He looks up for up from
his work when she dies
Emily: Yeah.
And he gets the water on the, on
the slide and everything's omen type
Ben: I was, I did spend a while trying
to figure out how much of the movie he
had spent as a time traveling ghost.
It's
Paul: I Think it's all
pretty literal obviously But
Jeremy: mean, I think we do see that,
like, the blind old lady who can see
some things and is a little bit spotty
as to what exactly, does say that
she thinks that Donald Sutherland's
character has some sort of second
sight, that he's able to see some of
these things that she can see, but he
is deeply in denial of the whole thing.
I think it's really fascinating to
me, as somebody who's seen a lot
of horror movies And I wonder if,
like, this is because it is based on
a story that is written by a woman.
In this, the female character who does
pursue this thing that is somewhat
based in supernatural and you know,
things like, psychic things like that,
is in this case not projected as the
one who is, like, trying to run away
from things or is not processing, is
having some sort of stuff thrown on
her that in a lot of movies, like...
In a lot of horror movies, especially,
that character would be the one that the
the movie doesn't have as much sympathy
for, or that the movie thinks is, is
wrong in, in some way, whereas, like, the
Donald Sutherland character in this is,
like, hard set against entertaining any
possibility of the supernatural, except
for, That for some reason he can see his
daughter running around town, and that's,
that's strange, I mean, because like,
Ben: also he doesn't tell anyone.
He doesn't share that with his wife.
Like,
Jeremy: it,
Paul: Yeah.
Jeremy: and
Ben: you keep that shit bottled up.
Emily: Yeah, he
Jeremy: that like, if he could, if he
could embrace this idea that he is seeing
things that have not happened yet, then
like, all of the thing, all of the clues
that can keep him from dying are right
in front of him, that like, he sees what
is clearly, a funeral boat going down the
going through the canal with his wife and
these, these two English women clearly
dressed as if they're going to a funeral.
And he doesn't think funeral once.
He's just like, what's my
wife doing on that boat?
Ben: This movie, in a sentence,
is, Men would rather ignore
psychic visions and get stabbed
in the neck than go to therapy.
Paul: Yeah Yeah.
And there's a, there's a wonderful British
radio show called Screenshot, which
involves the, um, critic Mark Kermode.
And they did an episode this
week about Don't Look Now.
aNd Kermode said something, and
it's available globally for free
on the, um, BBC Radio Player.
And Kermode said something really press
really I think intelligent about this.
The...
Grief is kind of like
time getting messed up.
You keep getting drawn back to
before the awful thing happened.
You keep living in the past.
And I think if any movie benefits from
Nick Rourke's technique of mixing up past
and present and future, it's this one.
And yeah I, I think that the way that
the killer, right at the end, just
shakes her head at Donald Southern,
it's like, no, no, all your, all
your hopes and dreams are over.
That little shake of the head is
a truly, truly horrifying thing.
Emily: Yeah.
And it's, it's so weird that it's
almost supernatural in and of itself.
Like, it's, it's this
weird kind of crone figure
Jeremy: Very David Lynch y
Ben: there's kind of a Final Destination
element about it, where it's like, Oh,
he was supposed to die from falling
off of this, but he survived that,
so now he has to die a different way.
Emily: well, the 1 of the things that
I found interesting about this movie
and help me kind of contextualize
everything is the fact that it
shares a lot of DNA with hereditary.
buT it actually has a little bit more to
say about grief in a more subtler way.
But I could definitely see the
influence of this movie on hereditary
in that we have these characters that
are involved with grief and involved
with each other where, you know,
hereditary goes completely off the
rails into, like, crazy nonsense,
witchland which is fine for, for,
Jeremy: for what it is.
Emily: Yeah, for crazy nonsense,
witchland, I'm, I'm, I'll vacation there.
But the the fact that Donald Sutherland
is the one who has, like, I guess, quote,
unquote, the powers, I find is really
interesting in terms of, like, how grief
can affect denial and cause denial, and
how denial and the bargaining thing.
Involved there, like, he seems
to be the one who is the, like,
person being gaslit by the grief
or gaslight by the pro like, by
Ben: He,
Emily: his own processing.
Ben: He has the Shining and his denial is
remaking his own Shining fuck with him.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, and that's
not something that I usually
see the, the husband in a
relationship in a movie about grief.
That's not usually what
he's going through.
Either he
Ben: what
Emily: like, a total psychotic break or,
Ben: his psychic powers in
his epic 1970s mustache.
Emily: I mean, there's a lot of
epic 1970s everything about Donald
Ben: Oh my god,
Jeremy: I
Ben: Julie Christie, when she gets
back from England and she's back
in Italy, her outfit is stunning,
impeccable, and so, so 70s.
I
Jeremy: amount of running on
cobblestones and healed boots
she does is incredible in and of
Ben: Oscar.
Fuck it up.
That's what.
Jeremy: wiping out, and
Ben: why she got the fu That's
why she gets the fuckin BAFTA.
Emily: Yeah, like I hope
the BAFTAs are for that.
Paul: The, the the way that
those two have such an incredibly
naturalistic relationship on
Emily: Mm hmm.
Mm
Paul: um, apparently one
of the things that...
What Roeg did was that he'd
keep the camera rolling just
before they were about to go on.
And so he's got little bits of
actually Julie Christie talking
to Donald Sutherland in here.
Emily: hmm.
Paul: Not in character.
And it's just, it's such a masterclass
in the way that in the middle
of one emotion, he'll give her a
little loving grin and do the other.
It's brilliant.
And it feels like a husband
and wife, and, yeah,
Jeremy: and I did want to go
back, you were talking about the
sex scene, which like, I will...
I will in some ways make fun of stuff
about that sex scene, like the fact that
I've never, I feel like I've never seen
a movie pre 1980 that Donald Sutherland
was in that he wasn't completely stark
naked at some point, um, which is amusing
to me, but like, I think that sex scene
does so much to disprove a lot of this
like, I don't know, I don't know, online
vitriol that's been going on about sex
scenes and how they're not necessary and
how they don't do anything for films.
I think this, this,
Ben: This movie falls apart
Jeremy: much about their, their
relationship and who they are and how
they relate to each other and like a,
a way that I don't think you would get.
without that being there.
Paul: And also I think it's
profoundly non exploitative.
You know, we're not
shown Julie Christie, you
Emily: yeah
Paul: we're, if anything, shown
both of them a bit, but the camera
doesn't think that's the point.
Jeremy: Really a lot of, there's a lot
more butt in this movie than there are
like, there's, there's a lot of American
Ben: You get some boob, but it's a butt
Jeremy: that's like, yeah, this
is, it's like breast focused.
This movie could really, it seems
like care less about breasts.
It's just everybody's, everybody's
butt is on screen all the time.
Emily: and more Donald Sutherland, but
then Julie Chrissy But like I was also
impressed with the fact that he was naked
for far more of this movie Than she was
even in the sex scene, you know, she
starts clothed and he's naked But we do
talk about that sexy and I was talking
about it being non Euclidean and weird
and, you know, it was very like serpentine
how, like, they were the, the camera work
and how they're moving and everything.
But also felt like this was, I did feel
the realness of the relationship, you
know, and I felt that that context of.
Them getting ready and like Donald
Sutherland sitting in his at his
drawing desk naked, you know,
just after the shower, like,
that's all and it's not erotic.
It's just, it's so normal, um, which
helped the sex scene feel important
because of, of how kind of over the
top it was, but it wasn't the kind
of, again, it wasn't like a, porn sex
scene, you know, It was like, it was
arty it's like an erotic painting,
you know, it's like a Matisse, and
not like the erotica, Like porn, but
like it's, it's like a, a painting of,
of human limbs together and sort of
Ben: These two people are not fucking.
They are making love.
Emily: Yeah, and like, if she
wants to, like, eat out his
armpit, you know, good for her.
Like, that was, I mean, it did.
Jeremy: I, this is going to sound
weird in the way I'm saying it, but
it's a very un American sex scene.
Like, it's not filmed like
sex is in any American film.
Ben: in that the women's
pleasure is actually focused
on, that is definitely not
Jeremy: Well, and that it's
very like experiential.
It's, you know, that they're
not like, let's get this shot.
Let's get that shot.
It's like, they're all sort
of wrapped up in each other.
They're rolling around.
It's, it's sort of hard to get,
you don't get the lay of the
land of the room very much.
It's just like,
Paul: for a moment there.
I I thought you were saying that
Americans do sex differently.
I thought, I've always suspected.
I mean that, um,
Jeremy: mean, I'm sure some do.
I know from, you know, from, uh,
complaints from friends that.
Not all people do sex the way
Donald Sutherland does in this.
Not all men do sex the way
Donald Sutherland does here.
Um,
Ben: going down like a champ,
Jeremy: yes.
Going down, uh, like a champ.
That's...
Ben: going out to eat downtown?
Emily: Well,
Paul: I was, I I was gonna say that
the, the media at the time kind of
made that the focus, this the focus of
the entire critic of the movie, but.
We're doing it as well.
So it's, um, I, I think that's just the
sort of human reaction to sex, isn't it?
That it becomes the important
thing, but it it really brought a
strange focus to that movie at the
time from reading the, um, the, the
press reviews and stuff like that.
And even the band, um, Big Audio Dynamite,
in their, um, song about Nicholas
Roe, E equals MC squared, Uh, their
reference to this movie is about the sex.
It's extraordinary.
It's you know, the, killer is,
this is her only role in movies.
I think maybe she does one
more, but she's an opera singer.
Emily: I didn't know that.
Paul: And, um, yeah.
And I, I've gotta say I, I'd,
I'd actually sort of quite like
to see her being interviewed or
something like that, because...
Can you imagine the casting?
We're, we're looking for somebody who can
turn around and make us feel utter horror
in a second with just your appearance.
So, who have we got today?
Oh!
Hello!
Yes, you've got the part!
Ha ha!
Jeremy: think that is like,
ultimately my, my big critique of
this film is that there is a a strong
undercurrent of like ableism in
Paul: Mm.
Jeremy: Both in the sort of like,
we do have the mystical blind
woman, which is sort of its own
Ancient Greek thing, but you
Ben: though, you can buy an Etsy, you
can buy an action figure of her on Etsy.
Emily: Of the blind woman?
Ben: No, of, the killer.
Jeremy: Yeah, but but also that ultimately
like the Climax the twist of this movie
is that he's been following around
this person in a little red coat that
he thinks is his daughter because it's
an identical coat to the Coat that his
daughter was wearing when she drowned
And that like, it turns out that no,
this is not just the, the person who has
been mass murdering people throughout,
or multiple murders throughout the movie.
They are only sort of a background
to the rest of the things going on.
But they are a, a murderous
small person that is, is wearing
an English children's coat.
I, I don't know how she managed to get
an identical coat to his daughter's.
It seems like a weird coincidence
just that, that works for the twist.
But that, you know, that's.
Uh, that, like the horror
of it is actually, it's a
small person with a knife.
is very like,
Paul: It's, it's, this must be said
though, it's kind of got to be, it's
not going to be a murderous child,
it's got to be somebody that size.
And, and,
Jeremy: if that is the,
the story we're telling,
Paul: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
Jeremy: yeah, it's, it's a strange
decision to me just from like a, you
know, a, a storytelling from a writing
perspective of just like murderous
small person, especially since they
are, they're only listed in the
cast as dwarf, which is a little.
Paul: know, yes,
Ben: a, there is that certain sense
of like, it needs to be something
shocking, yet grounded, yet the
ableism is kinda, is a little
Paul: yeah.
I think, I think there's,
Emily: oh, I was gonna say that I
never, like, when I watched it, I
didn't clock her as a small person.
I just clocked her as a Nona, like,
because Italian Nonas are that big,
and I just thought that she was
a little Nona, that it, you know,
Ben: I would love
Emily: Nona, of course it is.
Ben: story of this, like, tinyish,
riveled Italian grandma who
just goes on a killing spree.
Emily: I mean, I can't imagine
it doesn't happen all the time.
Like, it's gotta happen, but
it mostly, like, you know,
bumpa is getting bumped off.
Like, it's not, it's not always known
as going after young ladies, unless
it's killing them slowly with food.
Paul: I think, I think there's two
things that are going on here in tandem.
One is that you know, he's been
fending off death for so long
that it's kind of jumped out at
him from left, from left field.
Emily: Mm hmm.
Paul: Or, that, He's got to process
his grief to get on with living because
something like this could happen
because, you know, just sheer accident.
is waiting for him.
And he's already missed one sheer accident
in terms of the, um, scaffolding collapse.
And, you know, when are you going to
start living again, Donald Sutherland?
And,
Jeremy: really underscores that too
because I feel like there are a lot of
like ideas and plots going around in
this movie, you know, with the I think
it's a bishop that he's going to visit
and them working on the church and all
these other things that are going on,
none of which get resolved, none of which
get finished, they all get cut short by
him being, you know, murdered because he
can't, he can't stop obsessing over this.
Paul: and it must be said, if any of
them had paid attention to the Venice
procedural going on all around them.
Emily: Yeah.
Paul: that at one point it looks
like they're going to be falsely
accused of, and it looks like, oh,
is it that going to be the movie?
No, it's a bit more primal than that.
Um,
Ben: I do love when he's talking to
the Italian detective and describing
the story and everything he's
seen, and the detective's response
is like, Damn bro, that's wild.
How about you investigate it?
Paul: yeah.
Oh, I tell you, the Italian detective's
response, which I think is sort of
like, I'm just gonna get this guy out
of our, out of our police station.
It reminded me so much of the
ending of Eyes Wide Shut, where
Emily: of thing.
Mm
Paul: where that guy just explains
to Tom Cruise that, you know, he's
put two and two together and made
five, and, you know, none of this
is, is true, none of this is real.
I think you should just go home now.
And it's kind of like he's
outside the movie that detective,
he's in a different movie.
He's in a much more , much
more, uh, Libya movie.
And he'd like Donald Sullivan to
know that, this is, it's almost
like he's concrete reality.
Emily: hmm.
Paul: that's not where Donald
Sutherland is, and he kind of should be.
It's a bit of a slap
around the face, really.
It's sort of...
Why are you over there?
This...
I'm not making any sense now, am I?
And
Ben: it doesn't matter.
Emily: all old ladies look the
Ben: Oh!
Oh yeah, all old ladies look
the same and old men like...
To K into distinctiveness, like,
Jeremy: Old men get
weirder as they get on.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: like, we got some like, truly
wonderfully like, what the fuck
Italian, like, men in this movie,
like the really horny bishop,
Emily: Yeah, well, I mean, this movie's
very Italian, and I think that it's
I mean, a lot of movies, you have
movies that are very Italian because
they're Like, directed by Italians,
and then there are movies that are
very Italian that is like, No, this
is, this is like, distinctly Italian,
like these Itali like, and that's what
I kind of like is that there was, I
did see that it was a joint production.
Ben: wherever this movie is
filming, it commits so hard.
When we are in the most countryside
that ever countryside ed, this movie
is so British I was worried it was
going to invade the Falklands, and
when we get to Venice, like, oh man,
it's just like, there's something,
I do love just its use of Venice,
the cinematography, just this like
incredibly Beautiful yet haunting city.
Emily: Yeah, but
Jeremy: love
Emily: very close.
Jeremy: confusing city.
That is just like, yeah, this is another
stretch of, of like, buildings over water.
Like, it looks like everything else.
Like, you know, he's, he's trying
to follow Whenever anybody's trying
to follow anybody in this movie,
it's like, where are we again?
Don't know.
Emily: Yeah.
Paul: long stretches of
the movie in Italian.
Uh, without any translation,
without any subtitles,
Jeremy: I appreciate that, like, I
think the impetus there is, is just
to keep you as on edge and confused
and not knowing what's going on as
everybody else is feeling in the movie.
But also I think it's, it's amusing to
me because I think so many, like, so
many movies that are like that, they're
bilingual, will like, they'll translate or
subtitle some of the, you know, Italian.
And, you know, even like if
you're watching a movie in
Italian, you'll get the subtitles.
But this movie's like,
fuck it, learn Italian.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: I
Ben: well, I, I do appreciate
that this movie does a literal
smash cut from Donald Sutherland
holding drowned body of his child.
Sm No transition, nothing in
between, smash cut, subtitle,
all caps, SPEAKING ITALIAN.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Drilling it to the church.
Emily: the,
Ben: Which works for this very, oh sorry,
Emily: oh, I was just gonna say
I was able to catch some of the
Italian and it was mostly very
Jeremy: Functional.
Emily: things that they were saying,
like, oh, this guy, oh, this guy,
you know, these, these British
people you know, follow this guy.
He's, he's weird.
Stuff like that.
Ben: I joke about the smash cut, but I,
I do think this movie is very interesting
in the way it, in like this dream like
way of how it uses liminal spaces where
it's like, sometimes we are just moving
from like, place to place with, and
moment, and time with no transitions,
and sometimes it feels like We're
moving through liminal spaces, and
I'm not sure where we began, or where
we're even going in this liminal space.
And, it, and, but it works, uses
both of those very effectively to
just constantly keep you kind of
off balance in this dreamlike state.
Paul: my, my, my.
Jeremy: feeling of being drunk
and lost in a foreign country.
Ben: I have, which, which
I have been, and that is
Jeremy: yeah, it's, when he's drunk and
lost, it's like, Oh no, I remember, I
remember this feeling in my stomach.
Oh no.
Paul: my, my feeling about that
smash cut, which is genius is, Oh,
and now he's, he's quite happy.
Why are you quite happy?
And, and like the movie makes it
clear that he kind of shouldn't be.
And, uh, it's just that, that
incredible hop forward in time to
a, to a point, to a point where
he's capable of, of having happy
conversation with the people around him.
Yeah.
Ben: to his denial.
Emily: Yeah, like, Paul, you were
talking about the, the commentary about
grief and time and also with trauma.
I mean, grief is a part
of trauma, certainly.
But how trauma, like, really, really
complex traumas are dealt with, it really
captures that sense of like, okay, now
I have to put on this face, you know,
but it feels like it was a second ago.
You know, you're still feeling like this
happened a second ago, but then now you
have to get back to work, you know, and
I think that that is where the movie's
editing really makes this, like, it makes
it ingenious, like you said, and I can see
this movie's influence on so many other
things that are, uh, that talk about that
particular kind of horror or grief or,
you know, and I have a lot of suffering.
It wasn't just hereditary that I was
reminded of, but the Had a lot of
other stuff that I thought about in
terms of like, wow, so I see kind of a
distillation of this, this method of,
of depicting this thing is so relatable.
And yeah, it's, it's really
effective and it's really cool
to see here in this movie.
And with the, Ben, you're talking
about the liminal spaces, um,
everything in this, in Venice,
in this movie is very close.
Oh, and a lot of movies where
there's a especially movies that are
marketed in America that feature.
Exotic locations of various
places around Europe.
You get all these really big, wide
shots of like, look at the beautiful
facade of this historic building that's
like 2, 000 years old or whatever.
And you have this grandiose music.
And here we have the very close,
like, here's the, here's the water,
here's the, you know, hairpin
sidewalk, here's, the church doesn't
even have that big of a courtyard.
Like, I didn't see St.
Mark's Square really anywhere here.
And it was it did really help feel,
like, really feel like you were
there, as opposed to, you know,
that this was a tourist attraction.
Jeremy: They really resist the long
crane shots or overhead shots of Venice.
It's really like, on the ground, you
know, when, when you're in the church,
you're in the church when you're, you
know, in the streets, it's, it's very
much like a lot of following them sort
of over the shoulder or just behind and
in some of these shots, which really,
I think leads, it really helps with
the, the feeling of, of being there.
The, the realness of,
of some of this stuff.
And I think also really helps
when something creepy does happen.
You're so grounded that you're like,
Oh yeah, that definitely happened.
Right.
Like that
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I mean, yeah.
I mean, the closer we get to an action
sequence, it's like, A beam of wood
kinda fallin on Donald Sutherland.
Jeremy: motion wood
Ben: Gettin him off something.
But, I gotta say, I'm like, I was
at the edge of my seat, I'm like,
Aw, fuck, there's wood, hell yeah!
Damn, wood smashin he's fallin
like, oh, fuck, let's go in town!
Like, it was exciting!
Paul: it's a weird movie to say,
but it's a very realistic movie.
I think in two senses, not only is it, as
you say, very grounded, the depictions of
just about everything are right there in
a very recognisable physical reality, and
also there's an emotional reality to it.
But that way of time breaking
up, like, you know, like, one's
day in one's head is very much
like you know, a modernist novel.
You don't, you don't spend it in a line.
You spend it in other times.
You spend it thinking back
and imagining forward.
And, I think that.
Is real too.
I wonder what he was thinking about
immediately before he was having that
happy conversation and was it that?
Was it, he, was he, Oh God, I'm
still holding my dead daughter.
Okay guys, here's what we gotta do.
Emily: Yeah.
Paul: Uh, cause that
seems very real to me.
Yeah, yeah.
Emily: As, you know, as each of us
processes, and, and especially those
of us who are, working at home or
things like that, we spend a lot of
time in our heads, and, and have to,
really evoke, like, in storytelling
and, and writing and stuff, having to
evoke something, our, our experience
you're very much outside of time.
And, you know, I know that his
job is practical, but it is also
very, like, aesthetic, too, and
there's a lot of meaning there.
I mean, the, the fact that
he's, he's repairing a church,
and he dies in that church.
And he's like all obsessed.
He goes up on that scaffolding to replace
one piece of the mosaic and, you know,
risking his life for this one tiny, just
to make sure that this one piece fits.
I mean, it's, it's a lot of
Ben: I mean, again, it's like, it's
not like, And what he's doing at that
point, like, at that point, His wife
is warning him, like, I think you're
in danger, please leave, our son has
gotten hurt, please come see your
son, please leave your job, restoring
this church, for a bishop that we've
already discussed doesn't really give
a fuck about this church very much,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: and he's just being like, yeah, yeah,
sure, yeah, okay, yeah, maybe, yeah, okay.
And very much in the tone of like, yeah,
I'm not going home, like, I'm staying
right here, like, it is just this denial,
like, he is in, and again, I think it
is, again, that smash cut, like, what
we skip there is processing, is grief,
is funerals, is conversations, and in
his mind, he's, like, it's probably an
experience in his mind where he has just
gone from like, this moment to when he's
just able to bury himself in a thing he
feels he can control and understand again.
Emily: Yeah,
Paul: I,
Jeremy: I think, oh, sorry.
Paul: I just, something
heartbreaking just occurred to me.
At the, at the start, Judy Christie
is, is saying to Donald Sutherland
Our daughter just asked, why are our
pond, why is the, if the world is
round, why is the ice on a pond flat?
And so I looked it up, and I've
just, I've been looking into the
answer, and isn't this interesting?
And I bet she thinks, just...
An hour after, did I get
her interested in pons?
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Oof.
Paul: hell.
Emily: Well, the fact that they go, they,
they leave their remaining child to go
to a place full of children and water,
like, you guys, I don't know if this is
like, you trying to forge yourself in the
fire, like, exposure therapy or something.
Paul: it's accidental, isn't it?
It's...
Yeah,
Emily: in that moment where they're like,
oh shit, we're surrounded by children
and fire like when she was wakes up
in the hospital and there's like all
these kids there and he's like, not
fire, water, the, the opposite fire.
So wait a minute, you have
children everywhere, fire.
Oh no, I'm gonna have to deal with this.
And him being so intent on not
dealing with it that he becomes so.
To an Italian priest.
An Italian priest tells him
to shut up, essentially.
He's like, blah, this church, blah,
blah, blah, and then the priest
says, we'll talk about that tomorrow.
Like, Italian anyway,
Jeremy: This is the idea of having a
Ben: to be fair,
Jeremy: you that they've got other
plans and need to leave, to me is
Emily: right?
Ben: Well, it's also that Donald
Sutherland is an hour and a
half late to this meeting.
Emily: I didn't even
Ben: let's not forget that.
They have kept this bishop
waiting for 90 minutes.
Emily: That's true.
That's true.
And it was also interesting that,
that Julie Christie's character
was, was very much he, like when the
precess, she was c she was Christian
or Catholic, she said she didn't know.
And that is like the realist answer
that anybody could have given.
And this is the year 1973,
Jeremy: fascinating to me as well,
that like Donald Sutherland is, is
doing a job that is restoring a church.
But like the moment that the Bishop
starts talking to his wife about
spirituality and Christianity and stuff
in general, he's just like, Oh no, that's.
Like, that's not real.
He's just trying to get you
into his little cult, like, you
know, why would he ask you that?
What's he talking about?
This is, I, I hate it.
Which is like his reaction to so
much spiritual and supernatural
stuff throughout this movie.
He's just sort of like, sticking it
into this don't deal with it pile.
You know, this is all BS and it's
very much the same reaction he has to
his wife later, like, being like, you
should come see the psychic with me.
He's like, Listen, you are not dealing
with the fact that our daughter is
dead, like, that she is dead, she's
not coming back, she's dead, that
psychic didn't see shit, she's working
you, she's trying to steal money or
something from you, and the fact that,
like, you've, you've bit into this is
just, like, it's, it's too much for him.
Emily: yeah.
When it's him that can't,
who's not dealing with it, you
Ben: yeah, I think there's a lot
to read into that working with the
church while not being spiritual.
I think it reads into the denial.
At the heart of the character.
And then there's also a part of me
that's just like, Man, I get it.
Like, I'm real Jewish, but hey,
Cathedrals are pretty cool buildings.
Ain't not really any
other buildings like them.
I get it.
If you're an architect, if you
really love architecture, I get it.
They're pretty dope.
Emily: yeah,
Paul: I think,
Emily: go ahead.
Paul: I think you can
read, you could read.
The bishop's reaction to him, in the way
we've been reading it, absolutely, that
that's a bored bishop, and this guy's
too into it, and late, and in the, again,
it's that police chief thing, it's like,
sorry, we've got another movie going on
here, it's a much more realistic one, or,
I sometimes think, is he feeling or seeing
supernatural evil about Donald Sutherland?
I often, I often equate inner
turmoil big, awful feelings that
haunt people with supernatural evil.
And I think, is it that this guy looks and
feels like he's on his way to that ending?
I don't know.
Emily: It's, the movie is really vague
on that point, because I know that, like,
Donald Sutherland is a lot more easy to
profile as a big, tall, white dude, also a
big, tall, white foreigner here in Venice.
And the fact that in all cases, the
closest and possibly correct Are
that the killers are old women.
aNd that is like, just kind of an
afterthought of the movie, but I was
like, you know, this is so much in
film that doesn't like, that doesn't
show old women killers, especially
like these two old women who are,
there's definitely something up with
them because there's that weird cutaway
where they're like looking at pictures
and they're laughing and, you know,
it's almost like Donald Sutherland.
We're seeing Donald Sutherland's
uh, how he imagines them right
now, like, are they, is this a
literal cut to them laughing?
Or is this him imagining, like,
them laughing at his expense because
his wife is, like, so bought into
their weird, masturbatory seance?
I need to, we need to
talk about that, like.
Jeremy: And they also, he also
hears, or I guess at least we hear
them laughing as he's climbing up
onto the scaffolding and that...
You know, this action as he's about
to almost die, you know, they, they
put her laughing underneath it,
which is, is fascinating to me.
Paul: Rogue took the two
writers to a seance in Venice
before they started filming.
And
Ben: That's awesome.
Paul: the writers thought it was bollocks.
They came out like, you know,
I saw straight through that.
You know.
Ben: I mean, the kind of sense
we have here is just this
blind woman feeling herself up.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: if I'm Donald Sutherland and I walk
in on this, I kinda get why I'm, like,
very concerned about who my grieving
wife is spending all of her time with.
Emily: I mean, I've seen the
Ben: I would be completely
wrong, but I do understand.
Emily: I mean, I don't know
if it's completely wrong.
Like, there's something's going on there.
It's not, the situation is not correct.
wiTh this weird like,
Ben: I mean,
Emily: rapture seance, because like,
Ben: take yourself out of this movie,
like, You are the sequel to this movie,
you are now the son, your sister has
drowned, your dad got stabbed in Venice,
and now you are being raised by your mom?
And her two older psychic
friends who she met.
Jeremy: you know, the, the
Ben: That's a setup all on its
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: hardest part of this movie that
I have trouble buying into is that the,
their son is in a different country
at a like, At a school where he, you
know, he lives because I was like,
if it were me, I have two children.
If something happened to one
of my children, that other one
would not be leaving my site.
Like,
Paul: think that's telling.
I think that's really deliberate.
I mean, they are British, mind
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: like This is still England
in the 1970s, let's not forget.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: they are, I mean, they
are having PTSD flashbacks,
Ben: you I'm glad you said it
Jeremy: that terminology here, but like.
He is, he is, he is suffering
from PTSD in this movie.
He is seeing his daughter everywhere.
Every time he looks in the water, he's
seeing her dead body, and like, you know,
we didn't really talk about PTSD in those
terms at this point, but like, he is,
Ben: very much what's happening to him.
Paul: They've, they've, they've,
they've, they've pushed the sun away.
They really have.
Emily: Yeah.
Because it's part of their denial.
Ben: Yeah, and also just part of like,
you know, possible You know, you said
that awfulness You know, the awfulness of
Julie Christie wondering if she gave her
daughter the interest in pawns, this sense
of, well, if, if I'm responsible for the
death of my child, then the safest thing I
can do to my child is to not be around my
Paul: Oh, yeah,
Ben: mechanism that it, and you
know, just the, the endless chain
of grief and defense mechanisms and
the damage of defense mechanisms
Emily: yeah.
Ben: that happens, and
Paul: Again, I'm quoting this radio show
a lot, but Alan Scott, one of the writers
who's interviewed on the show, said he
didn't realize until he was asked about
it decades later by an academic, that
his own biography is that when he was
very young, his father died, and he was
immediately sent away to boarding school.
Emily: Mm hmm.
Paul: And he didn't realise that that's
in this movie, that I mean, that's a big
unconscious sounding there, Alan Scott.
You've plonked something, yeah.
Ben: I will say part of me
when, That happened when they
announced it in the movie.
It's like, yep, and we sent him and we
left him in England at the boring school.
But I thought it was like, yes,
all of the thematic and character
elements that I can read into that.
But also I imagine part of what motivated
that was just like, Hey, so we're all cool
with not dealing with a child actor for
the rest of this production in Venice.
Right, like, we're not, we're not gonna
bring a nine year old to Venice, right?
Okay, cool.
Glad we're all on the same page with that.
Emily: Yeah.
I mean, yeah, but also I
mean, I think if it was about.
Them trying to, you know, it's about them.
It's not about them dealing with their
son because I think that that would
deserve more of the film if it was, if
it was about them dealing with him or
about him, them coping with him and them
getting through that together with him.
You know, I don't see how that narrative
would work the same way as the narrative
of work with just them with each other and
the kind of doubt and like hyper focus.
On these like, either perceived
or like misinterpreted things.
Because like the whole thing with
the psychic women and the seance and
everything kind of, brings up for me
this, this very delicate line of where
spirituality is really helpful for
people to sort of contextualize things
that they can't control or understand.
And it's a lot of, like, atheists and,
you know, and I, I don't consider myself
an atheist so much as like agnostic,
but it also, I find that certain things,
like, certain people are always looking
for a reason to do the right thing.
If they are interpreting it the proper
way and especially when they're feeling
out of control, you know, sometimes they
need something like, oh, I got a sign from
your daughter that you need to go back and
deal with your trauma that with your son.
That's the boarding school.
Like, maybe you shouldn't be here.
Maybe you should be dealing
with your trauma more.
And if that comes in the, in the form of.
Psychic visions, not very tactful, not
something I, you know, definitely go
to therapy with a, with a psychologist
or, you know, something like don't
rely on the metaphysical, but.
Sometimes something like that can be
just the way that you listen to yourself.
And I feel like that's what was going
on with, Julie Christie and like, how
her the way that Donald Sutherland.
Depicted it to the, to the police
officer, like, not that, these women
are obviously grifting my wife.
He didn't say that.
He said, my wife encountered these
women and he, and she changed and
she, and it was almost like he
was saying that he was, that they
cast a spell on her or something.
And then in part of that conversation,
he realizes that he sounds like
a crazy person and so he's like,
and then there are murders and
baby, there are murders because of
these women because they seem bad.
And I also kind of interpreted,
like, the, the murder in the end
to be the 1 that they're chasing.
But because this guy can't determine
which old women from each other,
he's just gonna arrest any old
woman that seems suspicious.
Ben: I do appreciate the scenes of,
uh, Dawn Sutherland helping this blind
woman back to her hotel, just feeling
like a huge asshole the whole time.
Emily: oh, yes.
Jeremy: Yeah, I love his reaction to
almost dying, like, falling, falling in
the church and just barely surviving.
He's like, Ha!
You know, this old woman told my wife
that I was probably gonna die, and, uh,
it's weird that I almost just died, right?
Cause, like...
That's weird.
I mean, coincidence, obviously, but like,
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: so, he's so determined
of his own objective reality that
like, something happens that like,
almost threatens to disprove all of
that, and he's like, Isn't it weird?
Isn't it so strange that I almost died
after that woman said I was gonna die?
Paul: It's kind of, it, it, I
was just thinking you heard, uh,
I'm a, I'm a practicer, right?
I'm Anglican and, I was thinking, has,
has Roig or the script has put any
sense of God anywhere in this movie?
I don't, I was thinking, well,
no, this is kind of a godless
universe we're looking at here,
but then there's that scaffolding.
There's that, um, you know, escape,
absolutely unscathed escape from death
that might make somebody think twice.
And especially reaching up, like,
you're on the Sistine Chapel with
your finger pointing upwards to try
and fit that piece in and I don't,
anyway, that's a silly thought.
That's a, I'm sure that's not,
wasn't in Rourke's thoughts.
Ben: I was definitely, the, the part
of that scene that I, I'm not sure
what to interpret or how to make sense
of it beyond that final destination
interpretation that I mentioned earlier,
is Donald Sutherland seeing either
a fantasy or a vision of him, uh,
not being saved and holding on where
he does fall and die in the church.
Emily: hmm.
Ben: I'm not, I'm really not sure
exactly what to make of that vision.
Paul: Oh, it's a quantum
thing almost, isn't it?
That he's, yeah, he's seeing
the other possibility.
Ben: It's a real, real sliding
doors type situation, but uh,
Emily: Yeah.
Well, the, a lot of it has to do, I
feel like a lot of it comes with his,
like, his thought process is so couched
in denial that he will get these, like,
very, almost seeming very clear messages.
And I'm gonna go out all in here and say,
like, having dealt with a lot of, like,
white dudes in the 90s who have to have
things told to them in a particular way
to get it, in terms of how to take care
of themselves, There's something very
relatable about him being like, Well, it
can't be God, because I've never seen God.
And also, this, all this
bad shit happened to me, so
obviously, like, it can't be God.
I am in a church, and I care a lot,
and I hang out with priests, and
I do all these things that have to
do with God, but it can't be God.
And then so, and then even when he's
talking to the police officer, he's like,
describing something that this can't be.
And now I don't know what I'm doing
because I've gotten all of these messages
and you know, whether they are like, the
main message is the one that if someone
told it to him straight, he would be
like, how dare you, which is get over
it, or you would not so much get over it.
But like, you need to look
at this thing in the eye.
And,
Paul: he might be right about
the psychics, but, but still
they're not doing any harm.
They're actually doing a lot of good.
Ben: yeah, they are, they are forces
of emotional healing in this movie.
Emily: yeah, and like, that, and, and
even though they are, it's kind of weird,
like, I don't think it's supposed to look,
like, completely innocent, like, they're
not these, you know, it's not like some
practical magic, like, Oh, just accept
your spiritual side, and you'll be a much
healthier, and you can have the Turbani
yogurt, and everything will be great.
But the, the fact is that she got
distracted enough that she kind
of suddenly found her priorities.
Paul: hmm.
And the psychic does say right at the
end, go after him, go after him now.
Emily: yeah, yeah, I mean, that was...
Paul: pretty positive,
you know, pretty, yeah.
Emily: I mean, she is, like, going into
a seizure or something when she says
that, but, like, which I assume because
it's just the two of them that's not
performative, um, but, you know, they,
it's not like they're, they're completely
heartless people, they're just, probably
wrapped up in their own weird paradigm.
Usually psychics Quote unquote psychics,
people who are trying to grift people.
They don't come at you that
straight and be like, oh,
yeah, I saw your dead daughter.
Thank you for showing me the bathroom.
Your dead daughter loves you.
Like, okay, you're either nuts, um, or
you just have no tact and like, you're
just trying to make me feel better.
And if someone was like, I don't know.
It's, it's, looking at it now, it looks
like, just really, like, horrifying.
I mean, if somebody was like, Hey,
sorry about all that shit that happened
to you, to me, like, after I've,
like, helped him cross the street,
I'd be like, You didn't have to bring
that up, but you're welcome, I guess.
Paul: It does occur to me that
we've, we've seen a slice out of
time where he seems quite happy and
we get a slice out of time later
where we see the psychics laughing.
Why shouldn't they ever laugh
when they're on their own?
You know?
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that, I mean, I
think ultimately that's what it is.
I think it's just them, because they,
they reveal that all their photos have
nothing to do with anything but them.
You know, and it's probably just them,
like, you know, having whiskey and, and
reminiscing about these poor kids who
are no longer with them or whatever.
it Occurs to me we never did a
real recap, um, right into it.
Jeremy: like we've, I feel
like we've covered basically
everything that happens in the
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: It's fun.
These things happen.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: cause there's a, I mean, mostly
it's a lot of like, We get the death
scene, we get the opening, and the, you
know, the sex scene, and then there's
a lot of, like, them going through the
streets of Venice, talking about whether
or not any of this psychic stuff is real,
and you know, it's us really seeing,
sort of, the, the world of Venice.
Ben: We got Julie Christie looking
goth as fuck and being amazing.
Like, we, we hit all the important parts.
Paul: Can I, can I mention the title,
Jeremy: I was about to ask!
Paul: isn't it?
Isn't that an odd title?
What does that mean?
Emily: I kept looking for the,
like, some sort of reference
to it in the dialogue or like.
Ben: now.
Which, I truly have no idea.
Paul: I mean, there's now there, which
it's sort of, for a movie that splits
up time to lead on, don't look at now.
Um,
Emily: yeah,
Paul: know, it, it, Hmm.
It's not even a standard
phrase, really, is it?
It's just,
Emily: mean it's, it's a phrase
that usually comes with a punchline.
Ben: I was, uh, in in It's
Italian name translates to In
Venice, a shocking red December.
Emily: Now that's a real,
that's a real title, like right
there, that's pretty intense.
Jeremy: This
Paul: That's a giallo name, isn't it?
That's, uh, yeah, the bird
with the crystal plumage.
Yes.
But, you know, there's, something
hidden in those words, don't look now.
But, and you're right about the punchline
bit, the next word is usually but.
Emily: yeah.
Ben: Like.
Don't look now, but,
ah, knife in the neck!
Paul: But it's usually something harmless.
After the bell.
Emily: yeah,
Paul: Don't look now, but
I think our table is ready.
Emily: yeah.
Paul: It's it's such a, it's a title
that sort of asks a lot of questions.
Ben: it was also not a title that
stuck in the memory very well,
because watching the movie, I kept
wanting to go back to the Wikipedia
page, and I kept having to be like,
Wait, what's this movie called again?
Emily: the Italian for don't look now
is non quadraria d'esso, which I don't
remember any of that being prominent
in the Italian dialogue, but I also
couldn't hear the Italian dialogue super
Ben: I, I will attempt now to pronounce
the Italian for, I guess it's Italian,
A Venezia, un diciembre rosso shocking.
Because I guess shocking,
Shocking is apparently a loanword.
Emily: Well, they probably
would, like, have it on the
Ben: We learned, have, we have learned
all sorts of like, what are loanwords,
like English as a foreign language,
Shocking in Italian, we learned that YOLO
in Spanish means YOLO, Uh, the Japanese
word for time machine is Time Machine,
Emily: when did we learn that?
Ben: We learned that from Haosu, I think,
Emily: Oh, time well, there's
a lot of there's a lot of
Japanese words that are, like,
Ben: Which makes sense, because why
would, why would, Like, how many cultures
would need to go out of their way to
create their own word for time machine?
Emily: the one that always got me
with Japanese is that it in Akira,
they kept saying the word control.
Control.
And I'm like, That's a thing that
every human talks about in Earth?
Ben: I was just a real big fan of I
think it was Piggy where they had YOLO.
Emily: Yeah,
Paul: Apparently Donald Sutherland needed
30 takes to adequately just toss away the
phrase, Well, nothing is what it seems.
Because Nick, Nick Rowe kept saying,
No, you're making it sound important.
And I want you to make it
sound really unimportant.
And...
Emily: that
Ben: two I'm just imagining you,
like, a director going, you know, and
I could be like, No, Las Gravitas.
Paul: Yes,
Emily: Right?
Ben: much screen presence.
Stop it.
Paul: did he start with,
Nothing is what it seems.
Emily: I think it's just Donald
Sutherland being able to say stuff,
just like, he just says things and it's
hard for it not to sound important.
Ben: The first take, he just, like,
pointed to the camera and screamed
like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Emily: I think that came out later,
Ben: It did, it did, yeah.
Emily: But he can say pretty much
nothing with extreme gravitas.
Paul: Yes,
Ben: God, what did had he done
had MASH the film come out yet?
Yes, okay, the film had come
out a few years earlier.
He had done M.
A.
S.
H.
by now.
Paul: oh yeah, these are
both stars at this point.
Yeah,
Jeremy: Yeah.
I, I, for life, I mean, can't figure
out why it's called Don't Look Now.
I think it's...
I mean, there is so much about,
like, Second Sight and things like
that, that perhaps, you know, that is
something that's being referenced there.
But, yeah, it's a fascinating
thing to think about.
Ben: I would have titled
it Cathedral Surprise.
Paul: that's the last course on a menu.
Emily: version.
Yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
And that's why,
Emily: of this movie,
Ben: that's why they
don't let me title movies.
Paul: I would like the
cathedral surprise, please.
And my wife will have the tiramisu.
Ben: Ooh.
Jeremy: I know you ordered the
Cathedral Surprise, but don't look now!
Ben: Spoiler, it's, it's fish,
it's uh, it's fish and wine.
Paul: Also, is this December?
What's December got to do with anything?
Ben: He does complain about the cold,
Paul: Oh.
Emily: and the, the hotel
does close for the winter,
Paul: Oh, right.
Emily: he comes back, and they said
that they're closed for the winter.
sO, and I think it's one of
those long, like, extended stay
places, it might be more of a,
Ben: There's several.
Emily: B, or,
Ben: characters in this movie who
don't feel like actors but feel
like just random shopkeepers and
people they pulled off the streets
Paul: Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emily: Well, that's I mean, that's
Ben: a very authentic
Emily: so authentic.
Yeah, that like feels like it's
really like the everything on street
level all these people that are very
normal and acting very like, not
like actors, they're acting just like
fed up Italian denizens of Venice.
Ben: you really only find in 70s
cinema where it feels like kind of
dirty and real but also prestige.
Like when you're just getting
like soft golden glows of the
wa off the wa the Venice water.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
The like, we're talking about
when we were talking about Black
Christmas, the texture, everything
feels like it has texture.
And a lot of that is because of all
the cigarette smoke that has Gotten
all over everything and created
texture or the, you know, the boat
smoke or whatever boat exhaust.
Jeremy: I think we can jump a little
bit to our, our questions here
about the politics in this movie.
I think the one that we've talked
quite a bit already about and
is pretty, pretty fascinating
is, is, is this movie Feminist.
Emily: I think so in a way, in a very
like oblique way, you know, I don't think
it's, it's, it's not here to talk about
feminism, but it is here to talk about
people, without a lot of sexism involved.
I Think that the most uncomfortably,
like, non feminist moment for
me, I mean, other than the
Ben: Italian detective, man.
Emily: Italian detective man,
which felt like, I mean, for an
Italian detective, yeah, for an
Italian detective man, it felt
Ben: I am wondering when we're
gonna get the 200 million dollar
reboot of Action Man Patrol.
Oh
Jeremy: tHe murder squad.
Emily: At least it's
not the hot dog squad.
Jeremy: great introduction.
I mean, I do think, I mean, we talked
a lot about how this I think, you
know, the sex scene is an interesting
place to take it from is that it's,
it's not exploitative, especially
towards Julie Christie in particular.
It is you know, her, both her her body
and her pleasure are given the same
amount of interest as the male characters.
She's and I think more interesting even
really to me is sort of thematically that
it doesn't treat the female character
being interested in this sort of,
supernatural element of, the world and her
daughter and everything as being silly or
flighty or as it often is in, in movies
like, And, Oh, well, you know, she she is
the one that's not dealing with it because
she is is interested in hearing about
this She's like, oh, no, she's facing
it and she's just thinking like it would
be It would be cool to go ahead and you
know have have this moment where we could
say goodbye to her but the fact that you
know, I I know she's there and she's happy
is much better and it takes her I think
seriously and takes his obstinance toward
all of this is a bad thing in this part.
Emily: Mm
Paul: The, the, the movie seems to...
Remain obstinately neutral, about that.
It basically just puts us in
the room with these people,
Emily: hmm.
Paul: without really taking a
side on the reality of all that.
Which, is quite liberating,
because you don't get forced
into the gaze of the movie.
telling you anything about
Julie Christie's opinions.
Emily: hmm.
Paul: I think that's as far
as that sentence was going.
I thought maybe it could keep
going a bit longer, but no,
Jeremy: mean, I,
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: I'm just thinking like the,
the character who is the most like,
unrealistic about subjective things,
and this is Donald Sutherland,
and that like, thinks he sees his
wife on this boat, and like, goes.
down a rabbit hole of like going to the
police and trying to figure out what's
going on with absolutely zero evidence
that she didn't get on that plane.
Um, he doesn't, he doesn't wait to
hear like if she's arrived in England.
He is startled to find out that
she is at her, at his son's school.
So like he is so convinced of his
own objective reality and the fact
that he saw her on that boat and
nothing else could possibly be true.
That he, he turns this into his own
paranoid thriller, and eventually,
inadvertently, that, that is what leads
to his death, because he, he wouldn't
be out wandering around looking for this
girl if he hadn't had to go to the police
station to retrieve this old woman he had
wrongly locked up for murdering people.
This old blind woman has just been...
Has been left in this Italian
prison for presumably hours while
Paul: And you'd have thought,
Jeremy: to the, the consul.
Paul: you'd have thought the
detectives are going, you know,
this is a long shot, this one.
Um, it's
Emily: feel like there was some kind of
weird game going on with the detectives.
They were trying to like, they were,
they had arrested the, the blind woman.
So her friend or sister or whatever,
lover, whatever they are, would leave
the console and come get her, you
know, like, this is a whole different,
like, this was Hannibal happening,
but Hannibal was two old ladies.
Well actually Hannibal was the lady,
well Graham was the, the blind lady and
Hannibal was the lady in the console.
Jeremy: I, I just, I just want
to hear a pitch for Hannibal,
but it's two old ladies.
Emily: I like the idea of two
traditional ladies Hannibal.
It's like two fat ladies, but they're
very friendly and also cannibals.
And then they
Paul: a Doctor Who episode that
just about meets your requirements.
Emily: is there?
Paul: Paradise Towers.
Two old lady cannibals.
English old lady cannibals.
Yep.
Emily: Okay, well
Jeremy: a Doctor Who
episode for everything.
Emily: I know, I know, that's
why, that's what I'm saying.
That's what I say.
Paul: Luring people in with crochet
and trapping them with crumpet forks.
Emily: That's the dream.
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: don't want to go through
eating people, like, butchering,
you know, I'll just go to the store.
I,
Jeremy: so I, I do think maybe
the, uh, the place where this movie
lacks in progressive politics is
probably the question of the way
it represents physical disability.
Paul: Hmm.
Am
Ben: It uses it for shock value.
Jeremy: yeah, and then I, I mean, I think
the projection of sort of this short
person is a maniacal evil dwarf in this
Ben: We've seen much more
egregious doing this podcast.
It's not something the movie revels
in or spends a lot of time in or
really beats you over the head
in, but You know, it is there.
Emily: There's a little bit to be said
about age and ageism, like, there's
certainly the fetish, fetishization
of the blind prophet going on.
Although there is some interesting
commentary about, how, like, normal
people really don't understand how
someone who has had a disability as
long as this woman has can really,
take care of themselves just okay.
Which is all kind of in the background,
but it's not enough to be like,
Progressive or whatever, but the,
the fact that the killer is an old
woman and it's sort of like, whether
or not she's supposed to be a small
person, she is still scary because
she's old and she has a crazy face.
And that's not, you know, in
terms of ableism and ageism.
That's definitely.
That definitely counts.
So,
Jeremy: yeah.
So that is honestly, I don't think, I
don't know if anybody else has anything to
add, but I don't know that there's much to
say in the way of the movie handling race.
There's very little racial diversity
in the cast of this, this film.
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: I think the, the same is.
Paul: right in saying none?
Emily: Probably none, unless, I
mean, I think it's all very, like,
Caucasian, Italian, you know, white
Italian, and then white British.
I don't think I see one person
with any more melanin than that.
Jeremy: Yeah, certainly
not that I can think of.
The white people and the wider people.
Yeah, I, I wanna say also, uh, there's
not much in the way of any sort of lgbtqia
plus themes or, or diversity in this.
yOu know, uh, I know for the time that's
not a huge thing, but having just talked
about black Christmas earlier this week,
that's even less than that somehow.
Ben: The only, I think you can do is
if you'd say that maybe they're not
sisters, the, the older women, but,
I, I think that's just some classic
progressively horrified grasping
at straws for queer representation.
Emily: Yeah, well, the initial shot,
the very, like, important shot of
them holding hands, and I was like,
oh, and then, you know, it's because
she needed to be led to the bathroom
because she was blind and then I was
like, oh, okay, well, this isn't, this
isn't what that's about, which is okay.
Yeah.
Jeremy: But also nothing particularly
queer going on here, other than
the other meaning of queer.
Paul, did you have anything,
any thoughts on that?
Paul: well, Alan Scott's.
Other achievements in life, including
creating the, um, musical version
of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.
Emily: Oh
Ben: always needs a second to
remember that you're not talking
about the Golden Age Green Lantern.
Paul: well, his other achievements.
Emily: yes.
Paul: And actually the Golden Age
Green Lantern is, is of course now
canonically queer, but, um, the,
um, just bringing in some comics.
Emily: The
Paul: Comics.
No.
Yeah.
Ben: Yup.
Paul: But no, that's about the
second or third remove, I think,
away from the movie itself.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
yeAh, again, I don't think
there's anything anti in
there, but at least it's...
You know, that's, that's, that is that.
Ben: Oh yeah, no, there's nothing in, I
don't think there's anything that could
be construed as homophobic or anything
Emily: Oh, yeah,
Ben: isn't LGBT content.
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Yeah.
Jeremy: aNd, I guess the other
question is, is class, which I,
I don't, I don't know too much.
I think Venice is remarkably empty at
night, which is an interesting, uh,
Paul: I, uh, okay.
I would say that the Italian police
seem remarkably willing to entertain
every little thought of this American.
Don Sutherland is Canadian,
he's being Canadian, he's not
trying to be British here.
anD, and but the Italian police are
willing to entertain every little thought
of this tourist in a way which I think...
while they're entertaining,
might mean that they actually
think he might be doing it,
Emily: Mm
Paul: but,
Ben: that's, that makes it crazier that
they're like, we're pretty sure this
guy's insane and maybe killing people,
Paul: then they, they do decide against.
But,
Ben: just, let's just arrest this old
blind lady entirely on his say so anyway.
The
Paul: that does remind one of the,
uh, you know, the architect, the
professional person who in a certain
class of thriller can wander around
ordering around the working class police.
Emily: Yes.
Paul: Julie Christie is very posh, as
always, and I, I think there is that.
Where that goes, nowhere particularly.
I cannot think of of any other And there
is, of course, the the, the very British
upper class thing of sending your,
your child away to a boarding school
before things get emotionally difficult.
Jeremy: Yeah,
Paul: Hmm.
Jeremy: I mean, they're
definitely upper class.
I, I feel like this movie is overall sort
of strangely lacking any people of a lower
class and that, like, as I was saying, the
streets of Venice are remarkably empty and
safe at night, uh, other than, you know,
Paul: Well, you say,
Jeremy: Yeah, other, other than
this one red coated murderer
running around, but there's, there's
nobody sleeping on the streets.
There's nobody you know, homeless at all.
There's nobody trying to you know, ask
for money or attempt to rob anybody,
even though they are running around
in the, you know, pitch black in the
middle of the night in the streets of
this city, which my, my understanding
of Venice even currently is that
that would not be a safe thing to do.
Emily: No, no.
I mean, it may have been different in
19 I don't think it was that different
in 1973 or whatever, this is also a
cultural thing because we have the,
the British versus the Italians, but a
lot of the Italians on screen, with the
exception of the priests, Are people who
are running the hotel or running the shop
or, you know, and then there's the police
officers and a lot of them are just kind
of like, we got to deal with this guy.
Right.
So I think that there is some, something
to be said about kind of being about
class and sort of class clashing and not
because there's so many, um, I should say,
because they are so many, uh, scenes where
it's just Italian and people speaking
in Italian to each other, you know,
while it is not subtitled for English
audiences, at least in where I found it.
It is definitely has something there
for Italian audiences, especially those
who would relate to these characters
that are trying to, like, dance around,
this nutty English guy and his weird,
needs asking for a flight and then
being like, Oh, my wife was here and
the concierge being like, we did this
thing just a minute ago where I had
to call the airplane and find, like,
the last seat on this chartered plane.
And now you're
Jeremy: I was here, right?
Emily: yeah, yeah, like that was like
this morning and now you're coming
back like what and you're thinking
that your, your room is still here.
Like,
Paul: the Italian version
must play really differently,
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: The Wes Anderson film, it's...
Ben: is just like various locals
dealing with this annoying tourists
who claim to be psychic and don't
understand what closed means.
Emily: I mean, that might have
something to do with the title.
I don't know, like, don't look now, but
he's back and he's looking for his wife.
Jeremy: So I guess that leads us
to our sort of final question.
Would you guys recommend this?
Do you think this is something
people should check out?
Ben: Definitely.
Emily: yeah,
Paul: enormously,
Jeremy: Yeah, my only hesitation is
that the only place to find it streaming
right now is Pluto TV, which is not the,
Ben: I was able to rent it on Amazon.
Emily: yeah, I rented it on it.
Yeah,
Jeremy: Well, the only
place is streaming for free.
Pluto TV, which is not,
not the greatest service.
It does have subtitles, you know,
there are some, some places which
have less than that, but, it is, it
is available there for free right now.
And, uh, decent quality, other than
having commercials in the middle
of a movie, which is terrible
Emily: I don't know how I dealt with that.
Jeremy: like a hard stand against it.
I don't know how we did that for years.
Fantastic.
Uh, which leads us, I guess,
to, uh, recommendations.
Does anyone have anything
they want to recommend today?
Ben: yes, I would say if you want
another movie that has both Donald
Sutherland and Venice, check out
the 2003 remake of The Italian Job.
I can't say what else it has in common
other than Donald Southerland and Venice,
but it does have both of those things.
Jeremy: True.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's, that's undeniable.
Jeremy: Not inaccurate.
Ben: I can't say, I don't think
they share any themes, but uh,
Paul: or already quality.
Ben: no, no.
I'd probably watch a better heist movie.
Jeremy: I will say, you really have to
watch, despite the name, you really have
to sit down and watch Don't Look Now.
You can basically watch the Italian
job while doing dishes or, or,
you know, laundry or whatever.
You won't, you'll, you'll,
you'll get them just.
Emily: you don't, you don't need
to look now at the Italian job,
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emily, did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?
Emily: Well, I mentioned hereditary it
would be a good compare contrast just
in terms of like, and also seeing,
you know, if you watch this movie.
So many other movies and especially
horror movies, the, the have
been influenced by this movie.
There's another movie that has been on
my mind between this and Black Christmas
is this movie called Season of the
Witch by George Romero, and it's a
very interesting kind of weird portrait
of femininity and, and class and.
Coping, which is you know, less to
do with, with loss, um, in the same
way that this film is about loss,
but more about a different kind of
just coping with sexism and age, and
that's a really interesting one.
And I think if you're going to be, if
you're going to watch it with something,
it would be these three movies because
of how we have this really interesting
unusual depictions in terms of like the
kind of tropes that we're familiar with.
So, yeah, Season of the Witch
by George Romero, also very
cool, weird editing in that one.
And you know, and if you want to
watch more non Euclidean lovemaking.
And spooky shit happening in Italy.
The third season of Hannibal is all that.
It's all it is.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
Paul: I, I would mention for more Nicholas
Roeg, uh, Walkabout, and for a riff on
the same vibe, um, how much is true how
much is objective reality, Picnic, Picnic
at Hanging Rock, um, another 70s movie
about whether or not something is true.
Or something supernatural
is going on here.
And that's also a very
strong sense of place.
Yeah, there's...
As you said, Don't Look Now
influences a ton of things afterwards.
We're now into sort of the fourth
or fifth generation of influence.
And it's become so much part
of horror filmmaking, and
actual just filmmaking DNA.
Emily: Absolutely.
Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's interesting
because I, I feel like this is, this
could easily be interpreted as what
we now think of as like prestige
horror and highbrow horror when it's,
you know, years before any, anybody
thought to call it anything like that.
I will say on the, um, on the Donald
Sutherland front, as well as, you know,
the Paranoid Thriller front, I do really
like the, uh, 70s remake of Invasion
of the Body Snatchers, the 78 version.
Paul: yeah, yeah.
Jeremy: Personally, like, I know it
gets ranked under it, but I think
it's better than the original.
The original is...
Fantastic, but like, it doesn't
make any sense, especially the
ending of it doesn't make any sense.
It just sort of like, they're just
sort of like, all right, and this
is, this is how it's going to end.
It's, it doesn't, it doesn't stick to its
own sci fi rules that it sets for itself.
Where I think, you know, this one does.
And of course, anything that's got the
trio of Donald Sutherland, Jeff Goldblum,
and Leonard Nimoy in it is like, how
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Jeremy: And then of course, you know, Art
Hindle, who we just talked about being
Paul: How twitchy do
you want a movie to be?
I mean, that's maximum twitchy.
Jeremy: I'm surprised they ever get out
of a room with the three of them, you
know, around and just sit around and
talk and go in circles the whole time.
I also did want to recommend I've been
doing a bunch of horror movie watching
for October, and I finally got around to
watching Werewolves Within which is really
Ben: I need to, I still
need to watch that.
Jeremy: It's really fun.
Uh, you know, Sam Richardson is, is
as much of a lead as that movie has.
He's a lot of fun.
Anybody who's, who's seen, you
know, Detroiters or any number
of the other things he's done is,
you know, he's, he's a delight.
But, uh, I feel like the real like star
of that is Milena Vontraub, who like,
or sorry, Vayntrub, who was supposed
to be Squirrel Girl in the, the Marvel
version of you know, the, the New
Warriors that they were going to do
and would have been great for that.
Cause she is.
delightful in this film.
She's really enjoyable and fun
to watch and I think brings a a
real sense of place to the sort of
like small town that it's set in.
Because there's a lot of other characters
that could very easily be just like, you
know, they're bit hillbilly characters.
But you know, she plays the,
the male woman who is sort of
the, as much of a second lead or
love interest as the story has.
And she's, she's really great.
throughout.
So definitely a movie worth checking out.
It also is a nice quick horror film.
Watched a couple that are
much too long recently.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: I appreciate a horror movie that
knows when to get in and when to get out.
Emily: Also Harvey Guillen.
And then, yeah.
Jeremy: Yes, Guillermo himself,
of, of what we do in the shadows
doing, doing the most with his part
in that movie the absolute most.
Well that, uh, that wraps us up there.
Paul, uh, would you like to tell
people where they can find you
online and find out more about
what you're working on right now?
Paul: Well, pork cornell.com
and I've got a link tree there.
I'm on Insta, I'm on Blue Sky,
I'm on LinkedIn and that's it.
Yeah, and I am of course the co-host,
if you like, horror podcasts of
Hammer House of Podcast, where myself
and Elizabeth Miles are watching
all of the Hammer movies in order.
And we've got six left of the classic
run, and thanks to Eddie Izzard, we've
now got to extend our run by one movie,
because his Jekyll is out next week,
Ben: Ooh, amazing.
Paul: a Hammer movie.
Ben: Hell
Jeremy: That sounds great.
I, I did
Paul: Hammer Studios are literally
back and they have made a new movie.
So that's their fourth incarnation.
Ben: Amazing.
Emily: Awesome.
Jeremy: Been back as many
Ben: never ke, you can
never keep hammered down.
Jeremy: Alright, they are a literal
horror creature at this point.
They cannot die, they keep coming back.
Alright and, uh, Ben, did you
want to let people know where
they can find you online?
Ben: Yes.
Make sure to check me
out@benconncomics.com.
Find me on all the social medias
Ben Conn comics and definitely check
out El Campbell wins their weekend.
My pros debut is out in stores now.
And make sure to check out, uh,
captain Lazer Hawk on Netflix and
then pick up the, uh, manga Italian
from Tokyo pop out this winter.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
And, uh, Emily, what about yourself?
Emily: Megamoth.
net.
That's my little link tree there.
We have Megamoth on Blue Sky and...
Mega underscore moth on Instagram,
mega moth on Patreon, so, check it out.
I, I have a one dollar tier on Patreon.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Fantastic.
And, uh, as for me, you can find me
on Twitter and Instagram at jrome58
on my website, jeremywhitley.
com, which I just finished fixing up so
it actually looks like a real website
again and you can find me at, uh,
jeremywhitley, both on Tumblr and BlueSky.
As for if you're listening to this
in November, you are literally days
away from the release of the second
School for Extraterrestrial Girls
book from myself and Jamie Noguchi.
If you're listening to this after it
comes out, then it's already out, so...
Go get it.
It's out there for the podcast.
You can find us on Patreon at
progressively horrified on our website
at progressively horrified transistor
fm and on Twitter at Prague Horror Pod,
where we would love to hear from you.
And speaking of loving to hear
from you rate, I review this.
Wherever you're listening to
it, you give us five stars.
It helps us find more people, which helps
us continue doing this this podcast, which
really just benefits you in the long run.
So there's no reason not to do it.
Thanks again so much
to Paul for joining us.
This was this was great.
Thank you for bringing this to us.
Paul: I really enjoyed
myself, thank you so much.
Ben: Thank you so much for coming on Paul.
Emily: And thank you for,
for bringing this movie.
Ben: Yes,
Emily: it has been on my list and I'm so
happy to be able to talk about it too,
Ben: that is one of my favorite
parts about this podcast, is just
getting to see all these movies
that I probably never would have
otherwise gotten to see, so thank you.
Paul: You're welcome.
Jeremy: Yeah, I Remember distinctly
asking Paul if he wouldn't do this and
he was like I don't really watch that
many horror movies and me being like what
about weird British 70s horror movies.
He's like, yeah, there you go.
Paul: I like horror with all
the horror drained out largely,
that's why I do a Hammer podcast.
Ben: Good call!
Jeremy: I Feel like I think the only
hammer movie we've talked about on this
so far is Taste the blood of Dracula.
So,
Emily: Yeah.
One of these days we're gonna have to get
Paul: quite a,
Emily: to all those.
Paul: quite a good cut, but one of
the first ones, Curse of Frankenstein.
Jeremy: I'll have to
get around to that one.
Paul: Hmm.
Jeremy: We can get more,
more hammer on here.
We don't want to compete
directly with you, but you
know, we'll throw in some here
Paul: Ha ha
Emily: Maybe in a year or so,
we'll do our, well, you guys
could, we could do like a team up.
Paul: Oh yes, bring Liz Miles
on here, that would be cool.
Emily: awesome.
Jeremy: absolutely.
Alright thanks again to
all of you for joining us.
And until next time, stay horrified.