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In part two of this month's two-part series on surfing in New Hampshire, we explore how the sport of surfing can create community, a sense of responsibility to protect the natural world, and monetary value for coastal towns. What is the value of clean water? And just because you surf, does that mean you’re more likely to support healthy coastal ecosystems?
Becs O’Brien and Christina Dubin are two surfer friends who have formed a community of female surfers along the seacoast and are actively involved with marine conservation organizations, including Surfrider New Hampshire and Beyond Plastics. In an age where our screen-time is quickly outpacing our face-time with one another, we discuss how the antidote might just be something as simple as floating on boards with friends in the ocean. Becs and Christina also share their thoughts on how to meaningfully engage the surfing community with the issues facing our coast.
Last but not least, Scott Lemos, a Research Economist and Senior Lecturer at University of New Hampshire, gives us a lesson on surf-onomics. How much money is clean water worth, and how can a sport like surfing impact a local economy? Scott also coins the term ‘positive localism’ as we speak about how surfing can become less extractive from the natural world and leave people with a lasting connection to the natural world instead.
Full episode transcript is available below.
Guest Speakers:
Becs O’Brien, Volunteer, Surfrider New Hampshire
Christina Dubin, Major Gifts Manager, Beyond Plastics
Scott Lemos, Research Economist and Senior Lecturer, University of New Hampshire
Hosted by: Brian Yurasits, Science Communication Specialist, New Hampshire Sea Grant
Co-hosted by: Erik Chapman, Director, New Hampshire Sea Grant
Produced by: Brian Yurasits
Further reading
New Hampshire Sea Grant works to enhance our relationship with the coastal environment to sustain healthy and resilient ecosystems, economies, and communities through integrated research, extension, education, and communications efforts. Based at the University of New Hampshire, New Hampshire Sea Grant is one of 34 programs in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s National Sea Grant College Program, a state-federal partnership serving America’s coasts. Learn more by visiting: seagrant.unh.edu
University of New Hampshire is an equal opportunity employer, learn more: https://extension.unh.edu/civil-rights-statement
Creators and Guests
Guest
Becs O'Brien
Becs O’Brien, Volunteer, Surfrider New Hampshire
Guest
Christina Dubin
Christina Dubin, Major Gifts Manager, Beyond Plastics
Guest
Scott Lemos
Research Economist and Senior Lecturer, University of New Hampshire
What is Time and Tide?
Time and Tide is a New Hampshire Sea Grant podcast for anyone who is connected to the Granite State’s waterways and wants to learn more about the latest science impacting both yourself, and the animals that live here. Hosts Erik Chapman and Brian Yurasits break down complex topics from seafood to coastal resilience by bringing on guests from both the research world, and local industries to share their expertise and perspectives.
Becs O'Brien: [00:00:00] Well, and it kind of sets me off on the right trajectory for my day. It's quiet out there. There's no like hustle and bustle. I move my body, which feels really good. I'm outside, which is even better.
Christina Dubin: It could be any condition. It could be like a two foot wave no matter what, on the way to the parking lot I'm nervous. It's excitement, I always get butterflies.
Becs O'Brien: Christina and I have talked about this a lot, given like my schedule I have between six and seven in the morning. Right before work, going to the station, getting kids off to school, whatever it is. So, I kind of just go like, that's my, I have to go.
And if it's flat, then I go in. If there's swell, I go in.
Brian Yurasits: Anytime that there's swell in the water and I choose to sleep in, I always regret it. Guaranteed.
Christina Dubin: But do you ever regret going?
Brian Yurasits: No. Maybe a little bit, but generally speaking, no.
Becs O'Brien: And listen, like I know some people have said, oh, Becs I can't believe like you went out this morning.
I always see you when it's super flat out there and you're still out there. So I kind of feel like a goofball, but at the same time, [00:01:00] it kind of keeps me level. I definitely don't take myself too seriously, but don't ask me for a condition report. Do not ask me.
Christina Dubin: Fabulous.
Becs O'Brien: It's fabulous. It's great, you should go.
And they get down there and it's terrible. Like there's no swell, there's nothing.
Brian Yurasits: Thanks for tuning into the second episode of our two part series on surfing in New Hampshire. Today we'll be trying to understand how the sport of surfing can create community, a sense of responsibility to protect the natural world and monetary value for coastal towns. What is the value of clean water?
And just because you surf, does that mean that you're more likely to support healthy coastal ecosystems? Becs O'Brien and Christina Dubin are two surfer friends who have formed a community [00:02:00] of female surfers along the Seacoast and are actively involved with marine conservation organizations, including Surfrider New Hampshire and Beyond Plastics.
In a time when our screen time is quickly outpacing our face time with one another, we discuss how the antidote might just be something as simple as floating on boards with friends in the ocean. Becs and Christina also share their thoughts on how to engage the surfing community with issues facing our coast.
Next, Scott Lemos a Research Economist and Senior Lecturer at University of New Hampshire, gives us a lesson on surf-onomics. How much money is clean water worth? And how can a sport like surfing impact a local economy? Scott also coins the term positive localism as we speak about how surfing can become less extractive from the natural world and leave people with a lasting connection instead. I'm your host, Brian Yurasits and today I'm joined by my co-host, Erik Chapman. Here at New Hampshire Sea Grant, we work to enhance our relationship with the coastal environment [00:03:00] to sustain healthy and resilient ecosystems, economies, and communities. In order to do that, we want to understand the people who live, work, and play along the Seacoast. Paddle out with us.
Do you all have a group text for surfing with your friends?
Becs O'Brien: There's a group of women in Rye that are pretty religious. Like they'll go down there no matter what. They might not necessarily get in the water, but I find they'll run on the beach or they'll walk on the beach and they're there. And there's a group of Maine women that we're on a text thread with that more go to like Long Sands.
Christina Dubin: And then we're on a Surfrider thread.
Becs O'Brien: Surfrider thread. I'm part of the Seacoast Paddleboard Club too. So, there's like the SUP paddle group too, requires sort of different conditions. It's a different group of people.
Brian Yurasits: Little flatter, a little less windy.
Becs O'Brien: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Yurasits: Do you all coordinate with each other to surf or do you just have your spot in mind and you're seeing if anyone else has the same idea?
Christina Dubin: Especially after breaking my ankle, I try to have at least [00:04:00] one person in the water with me. You know, if it's summertime and there's a ton of people in the water, I'm not worried about it. You know, I can lock eyes with another surfer and I do feel that there's a sense of community. We, you know, are watching out for each other.
We'll, notice if you didn't come up and your board's floating towards the land. And I also enjoy surfing more when I'm with someone. It's so fun to share that with somebody.
Becs O'Brien: I mean, when I learned to surf, which was only like 15 years ago I was in my thirties when I learned, I've always just gone with other people both to learn and then just the encouragement of it.
Brian Yurasits: I mean, you need someone who can attest to the awesome wave you just caught. Otherwise, how will anyone believe you?
Becs O'Brien: I do think it's interesting, I was thinking about this, when we're out on the water together, how long it takes us to get through a story. Because you'll be talking about something and you're like, hold on, I'm just gonna catch this left.
You're gonna go right. And then you paddle back out to each other on the outside and you're like, so, and you just pick up like right where you left off.
Brian Yurasits: When I see either of you in the water and it's been a while. This is exactly what happens.
Christina Dubin: I love [00:05:00] that about it. I love that we prioritize the wave.
Brian Yurasits: So what better place to start our conversation about how surfing relates to coastal conservation and community than how we all originally met Christina and Becs, could you tell our audience a bit more about yourselves?
Christina Dubin: So, I'm Christina Dubin. I live in Portsmouth where I've lived for the past 13 years, and I started surfing in my early to mid thirties. I currently am on the development team for an organization called Beyond Plastics, helping groups on policy advocacy for plastics reduction.
So I've been working in waste and reduction of plastics for a long time.
Becs O'Brien: So, my name is Becs O'Brien, Rebecca O'Brien, everyone calls me Becs. I also live in Portmouth, New Hampshire. I started surfing, a friend of mine took me out, I was actually pregnant with my second daughter. I still feel like I'm learning how to surf all these years later in different points of my life.
I was surfing for like a year or two and then we moved to Australia, and then we came back. And when we came back I was introduced [00:06:00] to Surfrider because I was pretty involved with this zero waste group that had formed. From the zero waste perspective that really spoke to me. You know, when we say plastics, pollution, it's a pretty gnarly, big issue.
Brian Yurasits: The connection between the three of us is volunteering with Surfrider New Hampshire. And that leads me into my next question, which is how did you find your surfing community? Like how did those group chats with your friends form?
Becs O'Brien: There was another good friend of mine, Karen, who was also learning to surf at the same time, so that was fun.
We were just kind of like stumbling, fumbling both a little bit spooked by the water. To be totally fair, like I have become so much more comfortable now. I don't mind going, don't mind paddling out. And then through Surfrider, people were actively like, hey, let's meet up. I wanna teach you how to paddle into a wave, I want you to get on the outside. For a good year or two I wouldn't even paddle out. I would flop around on the inside, 'cause I was scared to paddle to the outside. You moved down the street
Christina Dubin: yep.
Becs O'Brien: And we [00:07:00] started surfing together.
Christina Dubin: Yes. And then I just was welcomed graciously into your, your circle of surfers that were being built, and then we've just added
Becs O'Brien: yeah
Christina Dubin: as we've gone along.
Brian Yurasits: Personally, in my 20 plus years of surfing, I see more women surfing today than I ever have before, and I'm curious if you feel the same and why you think there are so many more women surfers out there in the lineup today.
Becs O'Brien: I completely agree with you. That's why I would always gravitate to going out with another friend who looked like me, and you would hardly ever see another woman out. And I would say probably in the last, what, four or five years? That's really changed. And as far as why,
Christina Dubin: part of why I think there's more women in the lineup is those first women who are getting in the water, and then other women are seeing them and saying, oh, oh, they're out there.
Okay. I feel safe enough because there are people that look like me in the water. So, whether it's gender or race or you [00:08:00] know, whatever it might be, I do think that more women in the water makes it a more inclusive space overall. If you know the waves are firing, it can be aggressive, and very competitive and scary. And sometimes, actually a lot of times, unsafe. Somebody wants to get their wave and they're willing to take your wave. They're willing to maybe plow into you with their surfboard to get said wave, and I feel like more women showing up in the lineup and taking their waves and calling out when somebody took a wave that was not theirs and saying, hey, we have etiquette here and there is a lineup, has made it a safer space.
Brian Yurasits: Whenever I talk to my wife about surfing and see if she ever wants to try it, one thing she always mentions is that surfers can be so mean. Like they really aren't as laid back and chill as people think. There are these elements of localism and etiquette that can really make it like truly intimidating to pick up the sport.
But let's get into safety now. [00:09:00] I know this is a topic that you both care about and can make surfing a better experience for everyone. Where do you think we should start?
Christina Dubin: Beginners shouldn't be out back on a six foot day. So, it's creating that safe, welcoming space and letting people have their turn when it's their turn. Right. And also, don't put yourself in situations, like as a beginner, you have to learn how does a lineup work. Who has right of way? It's just like driving. Know what to do if your board gets away from you. What happens when you go through the washing machine? Do you grab your board?
Do you let your board go?
Becs O'Brien: So much of surfing when you talk about safety, popping up on your board and catching it left, catching it right, like whatever you wanna do, and not bumping into anybody, that's just like such a small portion of the whole experience. It's like, how do you paddle out? Not paddling behind somebody, right, who's paddling out. So, when you try to explain that to somebody who's maybe never surfed before, there's a lot to it.
Brian Yurasits: And who do you think is gonna teach you all [00:10:00] of this etiquette and safety? It's the people in your orbit, in your community. So I know you have a story about a surf safety retreat that you all put together, and I would love to hear more about that.
Becs O'Brien: There was a few of us that were sort of rattled a couple of summers ago. An acquaintance, he went into cardiac arrest and he was out on the water and a couple surfers were able to paddle him in. This happened at Jenness a couple years ago. And we were all like really rattled by that. I kept thinking like, well, what would I have done in that situation. I work for the fire department and I work with the lifeguards and all of that, but I paddle with a lot of people that are in the water that are super strong and they're mentally really strong, but you still need to know those skills, like would I do. Because it was a surfers that saved his life.
That's what inspired us to start having conversations like, hey, there's a group of us that are always surfing together, like what would we do? And that's what inspired us to put together this retreat and we learned some skills and everyone's CPR certified and one of the lieutenants from the Rye Fire Department who's head of our ocean rescue [00:11:00] program, he came and he did a whole morning session with us on, you know, using your board.
We've got lifeguards that have the rescue boards. We're essentially surfing with a rescue board. And then we practiced if someone was unconscious, your patient was unconscious, or your friend, how would you get them off the beach? It was like a two and a half day retreat.
Christina Dubin: Yes, we all, yeah, we rented a house together.
So there's a big community aspect that we're gonna enjoy this natural resource, we're going to care for it, and we're gonna take care of one another and find joy together.
Becs O'Brien: Yeah, Christina, we were down at Foss that day when you got hurt, and if you had been there by yourself, you're over that berm, right?
Nobody can see you. Christina broke her lower leg. She gave us the all sign, like, I am not okay. A couple of us paddled in and it was like everybody went into place. You've got the surfboards, you get them up over the berm, you get Christina, you stabilize the wound.
Brian Yurasits: Thankfully you had your friends there to help you, but it definitely sounds like it could have been a lot worse.
I want to transition from talking about human health [00:12:00] here to the health of the natural world around us while surfing. What coastal issues resonate with you both and the people around you?
Christina Dubin: So, I'm gonna start off with one that might not sound environmental, but it is, which is access and equitable access.
So there are ongoing efforts to reduce access to the water, to the beach, and to the water. Surfrider foundation, New Hampshire chapter in the past has played a role in trying to prevent limiting access and again, equitable access, right? So, we don't want just people who can afford a certain amount of money for parking passes or whatever it might be, being able to access the beach.
It is a public good, it is a public resource. You know, the beach is not a private property. So, I'll say that. And why I think it pertains to environmental protection is that once people enjoy this resource, they will be more apt to wanna protect the place that they play. And you also can see the problems, [00:13:00] whether it's microplastics, macroplastic pollution, sewage contaminating the water, you're more hip to all these issues when you're actually there.
Becs O'Brien: And then on the access point too, Brian, like how many times have you seen posted signs up too? Like beach is closed because of fecal bacteria. Sometimes people are still not making that connection. I feel like sometimes it's a bit of an uphill battle to continue to connect those dots.
Christina Dubin: It's easier to make that connection too with like marine debris for instance.
Most of what's in the ocean is from land-based sources. It's not all derelict fishing gear. So, you make that connection and then you understand we have to reduce the land-based sources. How do we do that? Where is it coming from? And that's where beach cleanups can bring awareness, and you want people to be able to get to that beach cleanup so that they can start to see, oh, this is a problem in my community.
Brian Yurasits: You've hit on the issues of beach access, water quality, and marine debris here. And these are all issues that you will undoubtedly experience if you spend [00:14:00] a summer surfing. Do you think that participation in outdoor recreation like surfing is enough to make people get involved with environmental conservation efforts?
What do you think can help get surfers to feel that sense of responsibility for the health of the ocean and not just use the ocean for its waves.
Becs O'Brien: Unfortunately, I don't think it's inherent. I think my circles, the people that I feel a connection to, my community, they care about the environment and they care about the health of the ocean and the water because it's all connected. But I don't know if those that are perhaps new to the sport or in different circles, it might just be a sport, I want my parking spot, I wanna get in the water, do my thing, get out.
Christina Dubin: I mean, I think it's groups like the New Hampshire chapter for Surfrider, but there's many other groups in the Seacoast area to be involved in, and it's getting folks connected into campaigns.
Those of us that are in these groups, continuing to bring new people in, but also having some kind of community engagement where [00:15:00] we're continuously, right, reaching out to the general public to provide opportunities, whatever those opportunities might be, and typically we want them to be fun. We want them to be enjoyable.
Brian Yurasits: I have an inkling of an idea here to build off that Christina, in our world today, people are very dug into their own beliefs and ideas based on what our phones feed us every day. But while you're surfing in the water, we have a chance to connect one-on-one with people in a very human way. Face-to-face, I think people are open to conversations and new ideas and listening to what each other has to say. What do you both think about that?
Christina Dubin: You know, beach cleanup will never be a solution to the plastic pollution crisis. But, when people stop by, well, why are you picking that up? Why is that dangerous?
Why does it matter if that stays on the beach? Why does it matter if it ends up in a fish? Why does it matter if it ends up in a bird, right? And so it just opens the door to those conversations. So, we have to keep building community and engaging community.
Becs O'Brien: I think opening the door to the conversations is such a great point.
The way the world is [00:16:00] right now, it's sometimes hard for people to have just a conversation. But if you're entering the space in a good relationship and you feel safe, right, these are big issues but if we can keep tackling them in little ways in our local community, we can make little change.
Brian Yurasits: There's almost nothing more inspirational than when you're surfing and you see someone spot a plastic balloon or a piece of trash in the ocean and they paddle over, grab it, and tuck it away into their wetsuit. It's a small action that makes waves in the lineup. If I see someone do that, I'll give them a wave out there anytime.
Let that be known.
Christina Dubin: You can't see it and not respond, you know it doesn't solve the problem, but again, it's gonna open the door to a conversation and it's in line with your values and it's a way to demonstrate that.
Brian Yurasits: How do you think that surfing can make us better people as a whole.
Becs O'Brien: You just feel better when you've moved your body and you're outside and you're in the salt water, like, ugh.
Your skin feels amazing. Like you just have to be a happier person getting out of the water.
Christina Dubin: Again, feeling like you're part of something. [00:17:00] You get in the ocean. It's like looking up at the stars. You're so small, right? The universe is so big and it puts everything into perspective. There's so much that's out of our control and it takes you out of that.
It makes you feel connected to something larger and greater. And then you're connected with this community because you're gonna be. If you get out in the water, you are going to be connected to a community, period. And belonging and having a sense of place and purpose and belonging is another way that we become better people.
And I would say too, I know this is focused on surfing, but we see so many other water people out there, right? There's open water swimmers, there are photographers now in the water. So, there are many ways to enjoy the ocean and to be a part of a community and to care for that resource.
Brian Yurasits: Well, thank you both so much for sharing your insights into how surfing can connect people to each other and the natural world around us.
Becs O'Brien: Thank you, Brian.
Brian Yurasits: Next we speak with Scott [00:18:00] Lemos, who's actually joining us virtually from Bolivia. Scott is a Research Economist and Senior Lecturer here at University of New Hampshire and helps break down the value of environmental services to surfers. How much is clean water worth, and what are the pros and cons to a rise in surfing's popularity along the Granite State's coastline?
We break down these surf-onomics with Scott, who also as you may have guessed, is a surfer himself. Stay with us.
Scott Lemos: My name is Scott Lemos. I am a Senior Lecturer at the Paul College of Business in Economics at UNH. I am an economist by training, so I have my PhD in economics and my research field technically is called environmental economics.
The best way to describe it is an attempt to take environmental goods, be it clean air, clean water, you know access to trails, access to surf break, and sort of recognize that they exist in a market, you know, in the way we think about sort of normal markets for, you know, any of the goods that we buy. Effectively, just try to put a [00:19:00] price tag on these different environmental amenities, recognizing that they do actually carry weight. They do carry value in our society and our investigations are largely just trying to understand how much would we be willing to pay for X, Y, or Z. Understanding what this podcast is about, I'm totally internally conflicted because much of the work that I do kind of on the economic side is very different than my personal life and sort of the way I think about surfing.
And I'm just like, no, this is priceless. What are we doing? How can we put a price on the thing? Like, no, no, no, no, let's be pragmatic about it. So, I've always had this really interesting internal conflict. So, I grew up in the south coast of Rhode Island. Been surfing about close to 25 years now. I had uncles who surfed and they're the ones who kind of got me into it originally.
Yeah, I've sort of centered my life around the ocean as much as possible since then.
Brian Yurasits: Have any of these experiences shaped research questions throughout your career? You mentioned right off the bat that surfing is priceless and, you know, that's how a lot of us do feel. What made you want to be more pragmatic and recognize the value to putting a monetary value on these [00:20:00] natural resources?
Scott Lemos: A story I think that really solidifies this all for me is actually really recently. So, for a number of years now I've been working on research questions related to water quality and PFAS contamination and it was last May, classic Nor' Easter swell, went up to Long Sands right when the wind switched, you know, waves were bombing.
I was like, oh, this is great. Got in the water, smelled something kind of funky, surfed for a few hours, fantastic session. I think it was about a day and a half later, the worst GI symptoms I could imagine, and that persisted for days. And then turned out that I had E. coli poisoning. Really wasn't until I was directly impacted by E. coli, right?
So, this runoff coming from land down to the water, that I realized how incredibly powerful clean water is. It was a miserable, miserable experience. Lots of economic costs related to that. It's not like I had this transformative experience early on. It's actually like this really interesting transformative experience during the process.
You know, after thinking that I knew all these things were true and it would just solidify it for [00:21:00] me.
Erik Chapman: Where did you take that in terms of research and what did you learn as you started to think more about the economic costs of, kind of what you experienced?
Scott Lemos: The first thought that comes to mind as you're experiencing those symptoms, how come we didn't know that was there?
How come there's not more information that would allow us in real time to understand that? Of course, I smelled something in the water, but that's not entirely uncommon. It's really just been a question of monitoring. How can we monitor better, you know? So, what technologies exist that allow for more accessible monitoring? What technology exists out there that allow for real time monitoring or something closer to it? How do we get access to that? How would that get paid for in any meaningful way across communities? Yeah, if anything, it's just opened up a bunch of questions.
Brian Yurasits: What you mentioned and what you experienced is something that anyone who surfs, anyone who spends time under the water before work usually brings with them, right?
If I caught a wave and I ate it and I come into work afterwards, you know, I got a little water that's running outta my nose while I'm sitting at my desk. When it comes to the sport of surfing, what are some environmental [00:22:00] issues that truly do impact surfers directly and can impact us monetarily, impact us personally?
I know you really mentioned clean water. How exactly does that impact a town or an individual financially? And are there other environmental issues that you think are at that level of clean water?
Scott Lemos: In the half a year since this episode, I've a little bit turned my thinking that water quality is on par with beach access. Because you can have access to a beach, but if the water is filthy, you're not going into that beach anyways.
So in my mind, you know, anything related to storm water runoff, sewage spills, agricultural runoff, all those things can directly affect our health. And so thinking about the real costs of health episodes like that, if you are an hourly worker and you're taking days off work, so your salary is a direct economic cost. You know, any health bills that you might receive are a direct economic cost, but to think about some other environmental issues, issues related to erosion, sea level rise. I think like a little bit less climate change [00:23:00] direction, it's more just around development. We know that coastal development can alter wave patterns. They can damage reefs. They can destroy breaks entirely through things like construction projects like jetties, harbors, sea walls, right? They fundamentally change how water moves through the ocean.
The issue of beach access. It is absolutely critical. And beach access is really interesting and kind of fascinating on how it intersects with economics, equity, and also community health. When beaches or surf breaks are restricted in some way, be it through any number of means, like private property claims, lack of parking, fees, it can create a lot of problems. Economically it could hurt local communities, right?
So if we think about Rye, for instance in this very moment, you know, if there is paid parking and Rye, sure that's gonna generate some revenue through fees associated with parking. But who's it gonna push away from the beach? Where are they gonna go? Are they gonna go south to Hampton, right? Are they gonna find themselves tending north further? Restricting beach access or beach access has really profound economic, uh, consequences. There's a really interesting, of course, equity dimension related to [00:24:00] that. $15 is really meaningful for some. So, all of those things are really meaningful and create tensions in communities.
Erik Chapman: Awesome, Scott, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the mechanics of the work you do and describe how do you go about placing an economic value on clean water?
Scott Lemos: So the toolbox of an environmental economist. I can give you a quick little glimpse into what that looks like. So, the way that we think about measuring value related to any kind of environmental good is we can break down an individual's behavior into either something that is revealed, meaning something that they do, or something that is stated, meaning something that they say that they would do under a hypothetical situation.
On the revealed side, this is what we'll call revealed preference. So we're just trying to understand individual's preferences and then effectively use those preferences to generate a dollar value. So, on the revealed preference side, we have a few different methods in this toolbox. So, the first is, of course, travel cost.
Very simply, we can think about how much are individual surfers spending to actually get to a break. So, that would be gas, [00:25:00] time, effort, how much did they spend on the surfboard what about the wetsuit. That travel cost method is, say, the first step approach in attempting to understand how much are individuals actually revealing that they'd be willing to pay to actually just get to the beach itself?
Another really interesting revealed preference is to ask ourselves, how are property values around a beach break affected by the quality of that break? In certain parts of the country, particularly on the West Coast, we see that there are meaningful increases in property values because of the quality of the break, or the quality of the water near that break.
I ran a property value study a number of years back for New Hampshire beach breaks. So, identified all of the beach breaks along our 18 miles of coastline, rated them by quality of break, how consistent are they? And then I was able to get access to a bunch of Zillow data on recent house sales for the 10 years prior and I didn't really find anything meaningful.
That's one part of our toolkit is the revealed preference. The stated preference side, there's a few different ways we get at understanding what people [00:26:00] would say that they would do. The simplest way to do this is choice experiment. So effectively, could just be me, the researcher, going up to you, Erik, or Brian and I provide you two hypothetical scenarios.
The scenarios could be identified by water quality, size of the wave, these other things that kind of characterize your surf session. And then I say, would you be willing to pay X for that? And then I give you another scenario, same set of characteristics, quality of the wave, uh, quality of the water, temperature, all that sort of stuff.
Would you be willing to pay Y? And then effectively I ask you, which of these two things would you prefer? And you responding to those hypothetical scenarios over and over and over again, allows us to at least get at what you say that you value. As economists, that's our main toolkit is we ask people what they value.
That's kind of the easy thing, it's easy to survey. But then we try to back up what we find with what are we seeing people are actually doing? Are they specifically avoiding certain beaches that are known for, say, high water contamination, traveling an extra [00:27:00] 10 miles down the road. Is that meaningful economically?
What's the dollars associated with that extra 10 miles of travel?
Brian Yurasits: New Hampshire is a unique place to surf and play on the coast in that it's a small stretch of coastline that increasingly feels like it's changing a lot. I feel like you do see more people wanting to access our coastal resources, more development happening on our coast.
There's a lot of conversations about like how we're using our coast and who should be using our coast. And I'm curious if you could speak to the economics of our changing coast and the changes to how folks are using it.
Scott Lemos: There's a real tension that exists. Between recognizing that the boom in surfing, starting from about 2019 to now is fantastic from a spending standpoint.
The tension that I see though is does that increase in popularity, is it a positive contribution to our ecosystem? Or you know, are there some real negative parts of that? In one way you'd say yes, there are absolutely positive [00:28:00] contributions, particularly through that spending. That spending is going to added tax revenue, more resources for something I care about, which is, you know, water quality monitoring. Those kind of things.
On the other hand, it's a question of are all of those people who are now surfing, do they actually care about the environment that they're in? And my big concern is that much of the boom in surfing, and that's not true for everybody, and I'm not targeting you Erik, 'cause you're a new surfer, right? But much of the boom is extractive. I have a potentially controversial opinion, which is I think that localism can be a really good thing if done well. Because if you think about it, surfing is one of the only sports or activities where there are no real predefined rules dictating what you can and can't do. You go to a ski resort, you've got ski patrol saying, hey, you can't go out of bounds here.
There's nobody in the lineup saying, hey, yeah, it's your turn, you know, you take that wave. Hey, don't go there. The issue of is it purely extractive, really depends upon, can we sort of [00:29:00] transform all of these new surfers into stewards? Is the quote unquote localism that we're practicing, is it positive or negative in nature?
Is it teaching somebody something or is it intimidating somebody? I think localism it can be really positive if you are teaching new surfers in the lineup, when is your time to actually take a wave? Do not drop in on this person. Don't go over to that break. If you're teaching them really meaningful ways to be safe, if you're teaching them really meaningful ways to recognize if you see a little walkway through a dune, just stay in that.
That way you are minimizing your footprint. You know, if you're the local and you're teaching about that stewardship, then I think that's a fantastic way to sort of turn that purely extractive experience into something that's more additive.
Erik Chapman: I just really appreciate, Scott, your willingness to, kind of, get into some of these ugly areas where there's internal conflict and just acknowledging that and helping us understand that a little bit more.
It's really super interesting and I think it's just important for us certainly to have opinions, but also to be able to explore the space in which our opinions evolve. It might be helpful [00:30:00] to hear you talk a little bit more about localism and what that means.
Scott Lemos: So the idea behind localism is simply that you've been surfing in this place, for most of your life, you feel like it's yours.
You feel like you have access to it? Why are all these people showing up and taking the wave that have been surfing forever? I've been the steward of that place. It's argumentation. It's intimidating people out of the water, creating an environment that's not open. What I see as a really positive version of localism is purely about education and kind of a mentorship in the water.
Brian Yurasits: Erik, have you ever experienced localism?
Erik Chapman: That's a good question. I have not, and I think it's mostly because I really avoid, I just go to a beach break and I try to go to a place where I'm not gonna be bothering anybody. I'm very sensitive to, um, interfering with people's experience. I think I maybe have heard about the localism a little bit, but I'm also just like really just looking for a space that I can learn in without having to worry about causing any trouble out there.
As a beginner, I would be really, I think I've been looking for that positive version of localism. I'm very coachable. I'm very [00:31:00] interested in stewarding the experience and also just honoring people who have been there for a long time and have a sense of ownership.
Scott Lemos: I think that if done in the right way that it can create very real positive economic benefits. So, educating and mentoring individuals in the lineup through that, your teaching
you know that person that you're educating, that the ecosystem that you're in is critically important. They start to have this deeper, sort of more meaningful experience.
Brian Yurasits: There's this balance of, it's a good thing to have more people experience this, like indescribable joy of catching a wave. It connects you to the ocean in a way that no one else can understand except for the people that are out there with you, right?
So the more people that you do get to experience that, theoretically you have more people in this community that care about stewarding natural resources. And then there's that balance where overcrowding can truly harm the experience, especially when the folks aren't taking it that next step, becoming a [00:32:00] part of the community.
They're kind of just using their natural resource and leaving. How do you balance more people recreating on the coastline with meaningfully connecting them with the community and the natural resource so that they do feel like a steward of it.
Scott Lemos: It's that more isn't necessarily better in the water, but higher quality experiences are better in the water.
The fact that there are so many more surfers in the water now can create more ocean advocates, right? They can create more individuals who are positive stewards for the environment around them. It has to be really intentionally done. The economic spending associated with more and more and more surfers, it seems, will be dwarfed by the environmental damages if that intentional culture building isn't sort of front and center.
And so it is through surf shops, it is through people like myself and both of you who are locals on the water with regularity, who are kind of creating that really positive environment. I keep arriving at the same conclusion over and over again that if [00:33:00] you have people in the water who care and show that they care, other people will care around them.
Brian Yurasits: Scott, thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences and helping us to put a monetary value on this growing sport on our small stretch of coastline here in New Hampshire.
Erik Chapman: Thanks a lot, Scott. It's been a pleasure.
Scott Lemos: Good talking with you both. Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Brian Yurasits: As you've heard from Becs, Christina, and Scott, surfing is an experience that everyone should be able to access and those who do choose to paddle out find tremendous value in clean water and quality waves. There doesn't seem to be a silver bullet to fix the impending crowds as the sport becomes more popular, but education, mentorship, and community seem to be good places to start.
Learn more about Surfrider New Hampshire by clicking the link in our show notes. You might just see one of us at their beach cleanups. You can learn more about Scott's research at the University of New Hampshire by visiting our show notes as well.
This is the end of our two-part journey into the minds of local surfers. Before closing out this [00:34:00] series, I want to give a personal shout out to my mother who supported my love of the sport in my youth by driving me to the beach constantly, waiting there for hours while I learned the waves of the waves.
She still keeps tabs on me during big storms.
Time and Tide is produced by New Hampshire Sea Grant. Explore more episodes featuring the latest coastal science happening in the Granite State wherever you get your podcasts, and if you like what you've heard, please consider leaving us a review.
See you next time on Time and Tide.