083 | Billy Abbott | Helping People Navigate The Whisk(e)y Shelf | The Whisky Exchange

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, I sit down with Billy Abbott, Ambassador for The Whiskey Exchange.

We discuss the importance of internal and external education in the drinks industry, the journey from programming to whiskey, and the dynamics between liquid-first and brand-first approaches in spirits marketing.

Billy also shares insights on gauging consumer preferences and touches on the diverse pathways individuals can take within the spirits industry.

Tune in to learn about navigating brand storytelling, consumer communication, and the vital role of education in building successful drinks brands.

00:00 Welcome and Introduction

00:28 Guest Introduction: Billy's Journey

02:03 Diving into the Drinks Industry

03:40 The Role of Education in the Drinks World

05:39 Balancing Brand and Liquid in Marketing

10:00 Understanding Consumer Preferences

12:25 Navigating the Whiskey World

17:38 Exploring Cross-Category Connections

22:02 Balancing Budget and Spirit Selection

23:09 Understanding Consumer Preferences

24:34 The Complexity of Target Consumers

26:07 Marketing Strategies in the Spirits Industry

30:03 Training and Knowledge Sharing

37:01 Career Growth and Personal Development

42:18 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Billy Abbott

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Billy Abbott

Drinks Write | Ambassador | The Whisky Exchange

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
Hey Billy, welcome to the My

Third Drinks podcast.
How are you?

I'm all right.
Thanks very, very much for

having me.
Good day here.

Nice and sunny outside.
I can see it through the window.

So what is good?
OK, that that's such the other

way around here in Prague,
because there's a there's a

weather alert that put in
barriers on the rivers and

they're expecting some floods.
So the world is reversed.

Britain is sunny, sunny and.
It is always beautiful weather

in Britain, no matter how nasty
it is, it's always lovely.

I love that.
I love that now.

Fantastic.
So it's a great horror to have

you and I remembered I
discovered you all Clubhouse

back in the days in 2000 and
what was it like 2021?

2020-2021 Yeah, the Yeah. 21 I
think it was.

Yeah, the long down here.
Where I discovered all these

crazy people talking about
whiskies and you were one of

them.
And then they got me into this

more transition from beer to
spirits, I must say.

So it's really, really great to
add it here.

Cool, thank you.
I would say it's great to be

here as well.
I've been.

So I don't remember you popping
up during those interesting days

of me talking particularly late
night on Clubhouse to groups of

Americans who didn't quite
understand my accent.

I've sort of seen you pop up all
over the place in some more

recent times.
And so yeah, really looking

forward to having a chat.
Fantastic, fantastic.

You were a well known figure but
like there's probably like 5

people from our listeners that
probably don't know who you are.

So let's have a very brief
intro.

What you know like different
hats you have on the various

things you do in the wonderful
world of the drinks industry.

Yeah, so I come from a bit of a
strange background, although

many people in the drinks
industry come from weird

backgrounds.
So by training and by previous

profession, I'm a a computer
programmer specializing in large

scale database systems on
mainframes.

Absolutely classic sort of
inroad into the drinks industry.

But I would say a Blogger and I
started writing about food and

drinks then first up on my
drinks and then left the

wonderful world of finance to
come and work for the Whiskey

Exchange.
My still my current employer.

I was back 13 1/2 years ago,
beginning of 2011.

So for the Whiskey Exchange,
I've grown through that too,

from being a content writer,
content creator into now being

the company's ambassador. 2 main
sides to it which is internal

education and external
education.

So I teach the wider people in
the world all about the wonders

of drinks and then occasionally
mentioned the fact that whiskey

exchange sells them.
Or so I train our people

internally to have more
knowledge about drinks across

the entire spectrum of the
spirits world, mostly what we

call the whiskey exchange we
currently have.

I think last time I checked was
12,000 skews online, covering

every form of spirit you might
think under the sun, including

liqueurs and sort of cocktail
ingredients from Moose fortified

wines, that sort of thing, as
well as a range of beer, sake,

soft drinks and also a lot of
wine.

Our head by Dawn Davis MW, as
the MW suggests, she knows a bit

about wine and so since she's
arrived, we've actually become

an award-winning wine seller as
well as being award-winning

spirit seller.
So that's the whiskey exchange,

but I'm sure we'll talk about
that later on as well.

Outside of that, I do load of
other bits and pieces.

I do a bit of freelance work.
I work with New Scientist

magazines to host a boat trip,
which I got in a couple of weeks

time after you work very much in
inverted commas as I sit on a

boat and go round mole and
either, you know, he counts as

work, allegedly.
So that's goodbye me.

I am a committee member of the
Circle of Wine Writers, looking

off their website and technical
things as well as representing

spirits writers within the
group.

And I am a liveryman of the
Worship Company of Distillers,

which if you look up, it's a
ridiculous organization which

has been around for hundreds of
years looking after spirits from

within the City of London, which
has now become an industry

group, which supports various
different things around the

industry.
And I work with the educational

committee, vocational training
and education committee to be

exact, as their communications
guy, telling people about the

various different programs we do
to support education in the

drinks industry.
So I do a lot of stuff around

education and then educational
support, just in general, trying

to make sure that people out in
the world know more about the

tasty things they're drinking.
For a while we just sort of

said, what's your job title?
And my job title was the

official Billy at the Whiskey
Exchange.

I'd be very fortunate to grow
with the company.

And when I started, I sort of
joke around saying, yeah, there

were fifteen of us in the
office, maybe 10-15 in the

warehouse, maybe never. 10
people in the shop.

So maybe looking at 40 people,
50 people in the whole company.

I think our last count, we're
depending on seasonal staff,

some between 250 and 300.
I sort of like grown through the

company, doing a little bit of
Everything Everywhere.

And finally we're now settling
down and we've grown to such an

extent that we can actually have
jobs, which we do rather than

doing a bit of everything.
So I'm no longer just the

official Billy.
I now actually have a proper,

proper job title of brand
ambassador, although I have

specific dispensation to only
use the word ambassador because

I hate the word brand when used
in the consumer context.

And so just calling myself the
brand ambassador makes me twitch

slightly.
So I'm allowed to call myself

the ambassador or the whiskey
ambassador for the whiskey

exchange?
That's a great bridge actually

to my first question, because I
come from marketing and

marketing isn't, might be
passion.

But then at some point I, I, I
reached the tipping point in

that I, I felt a little bit too
floppy in the brand world, which

is a pity because brand
marketing and brand stuff, you

know, doesn't have to be floppy.
And then I wanted to merge it

with commercial because I wanted
to be more hands on and more

into the the thing.
So I, I really, really hear what

you say.
So let's start with the first

question that I often ask was
spirits brand.

Do they start from the liquid or
from the brand?

It's a difficult one because it
varies across every single

spirit, especially if you just
dive into the whiskey world.

That's the bit where I have most
sort of like solid knowledge of

this on day-to-day basis.
It's two very different

approaches and different
companies, different brands jump

into it in different ways.
Even within the same company,

different brands might approach
it different ways.

Some people dig into that
liquid.

Generally people either have a
history or who can manufacture a

history, will dive into that and
they'll lead with that and it'll

be drink the thing rather than
drink the liquid.

And that can be really great.
Current example popped up the

other day, Beyoncé's Sir Davis.
That is a thing which is all

about the brand.
It's all about the person.

It's all about the story around
it.

Nobody's talking about the
liquid.

They probably should be because
it's really interesting liquid

and the liquid does support that
story, but you need that.

That's starting from that story.
Then you get other whiskey

brands, which will really come
up through the liquid side of

things.
And often I find that appeals a

lot more, especially in the
whiskey world, to the geeky

people, to the people who are
more sort of invested in the

spirit and the understanding of
the spirit.

You talk about some of the stuff
that Loch Lomond Distillery do

and say.
So this is entirely malt base

for the raw materials, which is
peated and it's got a long

fermentation which is then being
run through a a coffee still

before being put into a bunch of
STR casks and finishing the

Chardonnay cask.
That is of no interest to the

average consumer, but to the
people who are interested in any

part of that that is immediately
a product they want to jump on.

I did make up that one.
I have no idea if it exists.

It's the sort of thing they
might do though.

And today even in some of the
WhatsApp groups I'm in, in the

whiskey world, people have
noticed their 6th edition of

their distillery editions pops
out of Loch Lomond.

Everybody's immediately going,
oh, what's distillation process?

What's this, that and the other.
Nobody's talking about the fact

that Loch Lomond is a distillery
that doesn't really have a story

behind it.
It was made sometime I think in

1960s to make industrial whiskey
to go to supermarket blends.

So if that's your story, you
can't lean on it.

So those two sides of it.
And I think to jump back onto

the Sir Davis thing for a
moment, that's a whiskey which

despite the many criticisms of
it out there, which are in the

market at the moment, as you
would expect from something

that's put out by one of the
famous sort of singers in the

world, it has very good liquid
to back it up.

It has very good pedigree behind
it.

And if you don't, most people
aren't talking about that

liquid.
But when you do dip into that,

you do have that support.
And if you just have all story

and no liquid quality and no
story about the liquid, I don't

think you can do so well.
You can't push so far and you

can't attract the consumers
quite so much because every now

and again one of them is going
to say, So what is it?

I'm drinking, You know, it's
that that transition of I'm

drinking Beyoncé's whiskey too.
I'm drinking the 51 percent, 49%

right to malted barley mash
bill, which Bill Lumsson has

done something strange to.
You need that extra little bit,

I think not for always, but just
to pull in a wider sort of my

market of people.
You know, I tend to think that

brands should start from the
liquid, especially in categories

where the liquid is really
playing a big role, like whiskey

to this extent.
Now.

I remember in my old days in SCV
Miller, we used to do it in, you

know, brands that we're focusing
on intrinsics and more

extrinsics now.
Like I remember I used to set

Perroni and of course like there
was the whole story about the

Italian maze and so on, but
nobody really cares about that.

It was about, you know, like
drinking Italian style bottle.

But then when I was selling
pizza and Oracle, it wasn't have

anything fancy.
It was all about the first pills

in the world.
And then we're talking about,

you know, like the mold and the
triple decoction and all these

kind of things.
And so there's different ways

and different scenarios.
I mean, you mentioned before,

like, you know, you are focusing
on internal and external

education.
So I guess that also, let's say

no, one size doesn't fit all.
You know, some people just want

to have something to drink and
some other people are are more

interested into the oh, but
actually the, you know, the

difference between whatever,
like a 42% and a 44% whiskey.

And they go and dive into that.
And I think that what I, what I

see often is that there's no
balance very often in the

communication of brands.
Yeah, they just go super

superficial or they go super
technical.

They don't listen to the person
in front of them.

And this is one of the things
I'm getting into a lot more

these days.
I don't work very many shows.

Previously I went to a lot of
shows just for fun.

I had my job because I was
computer programmer who liked

whiskey.
One of the things I'm doing a

lot more now is doing days down
at our shops because Whiskey

Exchange may be online.
We also have three shops in

London.
And so getting out to go and

work with the teams there to see
what they're doing, but also

just to get a bit more customer
facing stuff because I do a lot

of it online, I occasionally do
shows and that's very different

to the interaction you get with
someone who just wanders into a

shop.
And so I'm trying to build up my

knowledge of actually the non
geeks, the people I deal with

most of the time are people like
me who are really interested in

the spirit and all that side of
things.

And so one of the things I'm
seeing a lot more is and

learning from our guys in our
shops who have been doing this

for years, who are fantastic.
They understand how to do this

perfectly.
My first couple of trips down to

the shop, it was quite
embarrassing of me trying to

help someone and eventually
somebody from the shop would

just step in and say, oh Billy,
someone wants to talk to you

over there, let me look after
this person.

Which point in time the person
leaves with a big bag of stuff

they really wanted Rob the me
trying to find them obscure

Khalila in the corner or
something.

It's understanding that level to
hit and it's one of these things

that the brands often don't hit
that they just go to a certain

level and it's often quite
superficial.

Often I find some of the brands
will go too deep though.

They'll dive in immediately into
talking about the whiskey maker

and the things they put in the
whiskey and people don't care

about that necessarily.
You know, you getting that level

is difficult.
But working on things I'm

noticing now is when I help our
marketing team out, I can see a

little bit more now how to help
them find that right level.

Because when I'm standing in the
shop and someone, what's up to

me and I have to gauge, are you
somebody who knows about

whiskey?
Are you somebody who just likes

things which taste nice and then
be able to find the approach

which appeals to them?
A great example we have at the

moment is we're releasing a
series of 12 whiskeys over the

year for seasonal releases of
three whiskeys and each of them

is themed around the season and
it's got the flavors of the

season.
So we start with summer and it's

got like fresh fruit, bit of BBQ
sort of notes in there as well

as one of them is a bit like
roasted pineapple and things.

So it's all these sort of things
that have a bit of versatile,

fresh, fruity, but a little bit
so BBQ smokes or summary feel to

them.
And on the labels they've got

pictures of the flavors.
So we have like paintings of

bananas and pineapples and
things like that.

People wander in and they look
at the bottle and I then start

talking about it and you go two
ways.

You can say it's all about the
flavors of summer or you can go

down the well, this is an old
art more art was a smoky whiskey

and this is art more where the
smoke's being rolled off over

time and this is the casket
being matured in.

And you sort of like sit there
between those two extremes when

you're talking to people in
person, you have that luxury.

But yeah, it's a thing which is
very, very difficult.

And I really sort of feel for
brands because I've had to do it

on occasion and I've definitely
not got it right most of the

time of choosing that level of
pitching when you don't have

that feedback of trying to find
out where the person's sitting.

I really like this.
Like how?

How do you try to navigate which
route to to go?

Which way to go?
It's again, it's this is one of

the things I'm trying to learn
from our shop guys at the moment

because they do it pretty much
instinctively.

So trying to get the information
out these guys, you know, who've

been doing this for so long.
And it's just, it's talking to

people.
And as every of these things is

when you're trying to bring out
information out of folks, it's

all about chatting a more sort
of higher level, You know, just

talking a little bit about
whiskey in general and seeing

what bits seem to interest them,
seeing what questions they ask.

And if worst comes to the worst,
just saying, what's your whiskey

experience?
Have you tried these before?

What do you normally drink and
that sort of thing.

And those sort of ice markers
will often give you a better

idea.
And this is not being read to

the brands I'm going to mention
at all.

But if you have somebody talk to
somebody and you say, what's a

whiskey?
Do you normally drink?

And they said, Oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, I get Glen filled from the

supermarket.
That's a good whiskey.

It's absolutely solid, but it's
definitely not somebody I'm

going to lead into drinking a 21
year old art board, 200 LB a

bottle.
You know, it's very much a OK.

So that's the sort of thing you
like.

Well, let's bring you up.
Try this one.

You're like this one.
This is sort of bringing you up

to the next level from where you
are.

This is going down those right
sort of flavor things and isn't

going to shock you on the price.
So it's getting those of

indicators.
And I've seen the guys in the

show, 1 of the standard things
we do.

Just one of the biggest choice
points when it comes to people

coming into the shop is they
have a budget.

And it's one of the things I
always talk to people about

because a lot of whiskey geeks
of like complaining all this

whiskey is cheap, it can't be
good.

This whiskey is too expensive.
Nobody will ever open it.

It's just for collectors.
And the thing I point out people

is that no matter what 2 price
points they've just chosen,

somebody else out there thinks
they're lower price point is too

expensive and somebody out there
thinks they're upper price point

is too cheap.
The world is so wide with this

whole thing.
And so getting that idea as

well, that will help you
understand where the person sits

in the spectrum.
So there's all these different

bits you can pull out.
And the guys in the shops are

just very honest about it.
They say what's your budget when

somebody asks them for
something, When they get a

budget, they can then dive into
those different areas.

I'm not quite so good at being
forthright yet.

I do a little bit more talking
around the point, but what?

One day I'll be almost as good
as them.

It's very interesting what
you're saying because one of the

things that I'm developing right
now and I wrote one of my guides

on sub stack that I call it the
bottom up selling Ring Rd.

Like the consumer is that it's
at the centre of the city and

you have many different routes
to get to that consumer, but

that consumer is actually
moving.

You know where they are today.
You don't know where they want

to get to.
So if you set up the position on

reach that person, that person
may be moving.

So the the traffic may be
moving, the route may be moving

because to your previous
example, you know, it could be

OK, I'm drinking Glenfidic 12
from the supermarket.

But I, I will tell you that I
want to upgrade my experience.

Then you may ask me, OK, do you
want to stay on Glenfid?

They can, you know, try the
higher range they had beautiful

18/21/23 or do you want to get
something else like an Ilay or

an American whiskey or an Irish
whiskey, you know, and then they

can give you hints and then on
the story that you have pre made

into your head.
Like it could be that they are

not into, you know, are they
into smoky flavors and peets and

then you use the peets as the
vehicle, you know, like the hop

and spoke.
Can you approach now?

So it's always interesting to to
be silent with this thing.

And honestly, you never finish
learning.

I still go to the bars, I go to
the treat.

I've been on off the sales guy
for, you know, 20 plus years.

And I still sometimes like, I
like to listen to the sales guy

or sales girl next to me, like
what they are using as a bridge

now.
And I'm like, this is cruel.

I never thought about it that
way, you know, And it's it's so

fascinating because you can
bring in different customers and

especially I like to do this
kind of like transitions between

cross categories, you know, a
rum drinker bringing them into

whiskey, a whiskey drinker into
all, you know, Scotch drinker

into Irish or you know, it's so
fascinating for me.

That cross brand thing is which
I really enjoy as well.

It's one of the things we've
done quite a lot of the whiskey

exchange is if you like this,
you'll like this.

I work mostly online and one of
the things I said since the

pretty much the first day I
started was is that I would like

our website to be as close and
experience to you walk into one

of our shops.
We're really fortunate that we

do have shops of incredible
teams who can do all this stuff

and as I say, almost do it
instinctively now.

So makes it more difficult to
ask them to tell you what

they're doing because they go,
well, I just do the things I do.

So I just wanted to break it
down, but trying to bring in the

idea of moving people between
categories.

Are you like that?
Would you like that and

understanding flavor profiles
people like?

But the other big thing for me
is within categories, there's

totally different ways of
talking about them.

So I do, I deal a lot with
whiskey from around the world.

I also dive into Japanese
spirits as one of my sort of

favorite specialist categories.
I'm getting more and more into

since some trips over to Japan
by Jiao, which I've been doing

bits and pieces of with over
time as well, but also things

into cognac and tequila and
mezcal fruit spirits, especially

at the moment.
I've had that beaten into me by

a friend of mine.
But trying to work out those

those questions you're making
about that you're saying about

the hub and spoke approach, you
start here and you go, oh, no,

we get to here now we go to
here, now we go to here.

Whiskey is a thing which I've
developed quite a lot and I know

the questions to ask.
Oh, do you like smokiness?

Oh, you don't like smoke?
Do you like this sort of things?

You like sweeter things, you
like richer things.

And yeah, been tequila and
mezcal, you know, agave spirits.

Trying to sort of guide someone
down that path.

It's a very different path.
Rum is the most ridiculous thing

ever because rum is barely a
category.

It's 97 categories jammed
underneath one word.

One of the things I quite like
is the WSET wanna Spirits

Educational trust.
When they re released their

level 2 recently, they changed
the name of the rum chapter to

be called Sugar Cane Spirits.
And the reason they gave was is

because keshasa sells more than
anything else called rum.

So maybe everything should we
should just call it the Keshasa

chapter and all rum is a type of
keshasa, you know.

So rum is just such a
ridiculously large category with

so many different styles and
flavors.

The challenge of that and
understanding and learning how

to talk about that and diving
deep into it, we had to pull out

those things is something I'm
fascinated in.

It's something that, you know,
there's loads of work to be

done, but also it's something
that a lot of people who work in

shops, you work for your
frontline day-to-day in bars,

talking to people to try and
find out preference, just do it

often even without thinking
about it because they just build

up these sort of like networks
over time.

I remember, like when I read the
tube map from Blair Bowman.

I really recommend it to anybody
listening.

Like, you have this tube map
with all the whiskey, all the

distilleries, and then you can
go, you know, left and right and

take another underground line.
Yeah, I guess it's really

interesting.
And what's so fascinating for me

and is I'm a big geography fan.
We use the world map as, you

know, European focused world
map.

No.
But then, you know, depending

where you live, your center is
different.

When I went to school for me,
you know, in Italy, it was

always like the Italian map.
And then you see kind of like

half of Germany and a little bit
of France and then Spain and

like a Roman world, you know,
Mediterranean focus kind of map

of Europe.
You know, when I then lived in

Finland, then you know, Sweden
then well, it's all a different

map.
It's always depending on where

you are, you know, you could
focus on whatever like Spicide

or I'm a or Tennessee whiskey or
bourbon or, you know, your

reference, your centre of
gravity.

It's totally different from you
and from another consumer.

Italians, for example.
It's very kind of like wine

forward.
No, you know, like that's what

we used to and also from wine.
Then you get into, I don't know,

vermouth and then that's how you
discover the botanicals.

And then you can bridge to gin
because of the botanicals.

And you know, you can build this
kind of like maps that are

moving, you know, side by side
with with people or like, I

don't know, you take coffee and
the bitterness of coffee and

then Amaro as a category.
It's so fascinating when you're

talking to different kind of
people from different

nationalities and what they used
to and what they used to eat and

drink.
And to your previous point,

like, which is super important
is budgets.

I may not be interested into,
you know, spending a lot of time

laying a lot of money on on
certain wines and certain

spirits.
So then you need to get me what

I want within that kind of like
budget that I allowed myself.

It's it's a thing though that
when we talk about all the other

bits, so it's like the more
romantic things, the things

which about our knowledge and us
understanding the category,

understanding consumers is a
sort of slightly cheaper feel to

it when you suddenly go, yeah,
but how much money can you

spend?
Because that's not a thing which

dives into our knowledge.
That's just literally a how do

we segment what we have out
there?

Reason why I never used to jump
into it, because it's not a

thing which I want to talk
about.

You know, money is not
interesting when it comes to

talking about spirits, which is
the thing I love talking about.

But it's one of those things
that when you speak to folks

like, you know, I say frontline
people, that's the first thing

you ask because otherwise you
might lead them down entirely

the wrong path.
Because of the way the spirits

has this huge price range, you
need to make sure you hit the

right sort of area so you can
find the right sort of flavors

for them, the right sort of
ideas, the stories, the

products.
But yeah, it's the thing which

are weirdly, that's the most
boring thing and the most useful

thing I've learned by, you know,
chatting our guys in our shops

is sometimes you have to dive
down that boring path first

because then you can focus on
telling the really interesting

stories.
When talking about this talk

about different kind of
consumers, you know, like every

listener knows by now that, you
know, my strong stand against

target consumers that I really
hate as a, as a turb now, you

know, I'm, I'm a big fan of, I'm
a person that likes this kind of

flavors and this kind of taste.
And then I would probably be

interested into this kind of
things now.

But when you have someone in
front of you for training

purposes or, you know, an
educational or you're at the

counter, you don't know what
that person is there for.

They may buy a spirit for
themselves or for their wives or

for their husband, or what's
your take?

And, and feel free to shoot me
on like consumer.

What, what's your take on?
Is there different kind of

consumers?
How do you navigate that that

consumer thing?
It feels to me like too much of

A simplification.
You need to do some

simplification because
everybody's entirely different

and every take a group of
people.

They're all a whirling pile of
contradiction, though, like some

things and other things.
You know, if I give someone

something and they like it and
there's another thing that I

really like with it, go yeah.
And half the time they won't

like it even when you sit there.
And, you know, I do a lot of

judging competitions.
And so I'm quite good at having

a fairly objective palette.
I can try things and say that is

good, that isn't good.
I may not like it myself, but I

can see a consumer who would
like it.

I do that and then I sort of go
along say, well, objectively

this is better than this.
But the Whiskey show last

weekend, we had a red Spot and a
Yellow Spot Irish Whiskey on my

stand.
The Red Spot is, in my opinion

and the opinion of most people
I've spoken to, a better whiskey

than the yellow.
The rest of the both fantastic

things, but the Red Spot is also
double the price, but has much

more complexity.
If it's a thing which I

shouldn't like based on what it
says on paper, but it's gone

beyond what's on the paper.
And it's a bunch of friends of

mine over from Cyprus and say,
well, you tried them.

Yeah, Yeah, try both of them.
Brilliant.

So what do you think when we all
prefer the Yellow Spot?

So what's it?
Yeah, all of us, every single

person here thinks this one's
better than that one.

It's that thing when you start
doing a target consumer thing.

And so for those guys, I know
them quite well.

I know the sorts of things they
like.

They like bigger Richard
whiskeys.

They don't like smoke.
They live in Cyprus where it

seems to be hot all the time.
So they don't like things which

are too heavy because that
wasn't quite work.

But at the same time this group
have stepped away from that a

little bit and like those
bigger, richer things.

A lot of them are Maccallum
fans, loads of them big Sherry

whiskey fans.
So it's like, oh, these two or

they like the light rich but
fruity thing or the really rich

darks of complex thing.
Don't like the second one.

And then they all tell me they
didn't.

So if you start digging too much
for me into this whole idea of

we're trying to work out what
the consumer looks like, the

person, we're going to go for
this.

If you'd be too specific on
that, you're not going to get

anybody.
You're going to go too far if

you create sort of wider swaths
of information.

So you say, right, this is the
characteristics we've got, This

is the liquid story, this is the
brand story.

They are.
I work with our marketing team

all the time and deal with
marketing teams all the time.

I think at one point in time I
was our marketing team.

We didn't have one.
So I think it was just me doing

stuff that would be marketing.
On my walk home from my first

day of my new job, I called up
my mum to say I survived my

whole first day and I now have
know how to get staff discounts.

So you're sorted from now on.
She answered the phone, said,

oh, so how was your first day in
marketing?

And she then laughed at me for
the rest of the 10 minutes walk

home.
So it's very much that thing of

understanding your brand story,
understanding your liquid story,

understanding the sorts of
people they might appeal to, not

a particular target consumer,
but the traits of your liquid

and of your brand which might
appeal to people.

And then trying to tie those
into the stories you tell.

And for me, it's all about
stories you tell and trying to

work out how to make attractive
stories and just working out

just general large groups of
people who might be interested

in those things.
And again, you're talking about,

you know, liquid first.
Very much for me, I somebody

goes liquid first.
But at the same time, if you

have a good story that will drag
people in so they can then

actually try the liquid as well.
So it's trying to make sure you

have that focus on both of them
and target wider groups, I would

say, rather than focusing on
those tiny bits.

Because I remember working in
the finance world and seeing

every now and again sort of
demographic sort of like things

popping up and it's very
specifically pops up.

So here's an individual person,
that's the person we're looking

at.
It's like, is that useful?

And in the finance world it was.
In our world, less so.

You know, it's another of my
kind of like topics that I talk

about with the the fact that
there's been a migration of

people from other industries
into the spirits world, into the

spirits industry.
And they brought in many good

thing, but also many weird
things.

There's a two kind of worlds
colliding within, within spirits

brands companies.
That's the the hardcore drinks

builders, like the people that
love on trade, people that love

the categories, you know, people
that have always been there,

like they've been 20-30 years
within the industry that will

never leave the industry.
They just go to our competitor,

but they will never go to sell
something else.

And then there's the other
people that are maybe coming

from off trade categories, the
Procter and gamble, the Unilever

type of people, and then they
entered the the world.

But you know, when you buy
tampons or biscuits, it's a

different kind of story versus
drinks that you're sipping at

the bar cocktail, you're
drinking something that reminds

you of a special occasion that
you celebrated or anything like

that.
You know, like so it's like

there is this kind of tendency
to put stuff into clusters like

this Joe and his 45 year old,
two kids, one dog.

It doesn't work like that and
especially on an off trade kind

of perspectives when you go.
Into a bottle shop.

You you see that person, but you
don't know who that person is

buying it for.
Because it's a shopper is not a

necessarily consumer.
It could be my wife buying it

for me for my birthday, or it
could be for her friends or for

herself.
It really depends on who you are

targeting.
But I, I totally agree with Jude

on the fact that if you overdo
it and if you overanalyze it,

then it becomes kind of like
unscalable.

Yeah, and, and, and, and I think
that the, the, the circle is

like the, the vicious circle, so
to say, is that brands want to

scale.
So that's why they recruit kind

of like modern trade trained
people.

And then the modern trade
trained people are like used to

bulk marketing.
And then it becomes a bit of a,

a circle now because you've got
the geeks, you've got the

mainstream consumers and some
brands, we also have to

acknowledge the fact that they
will never be mainstream.

As much as you can scale in a
certain brand, it will always be

kind of niche.
I think I was saying is, is, is

something which I have changed
my mind on a lot as I've worked

with more people who've come in
from outside of pure drinks

industry.
You know, when I first started

the whiskey exchange, I was the
new boy coming in from the

finance world.
I knew about drinks.

I was learning, but was and I
knew about websites.

I've been building websites
since it was possible to do so.

And I understood a lot about the
e-commerce side of things, but

not rockface, you know, I was
never done it professionally.

I worked on startups once at
university and all that sort of

thing.
And all of us, there were to

some extent drinks people who
are doing our job roles within

the company.
But as a company grows, you, you

can't bring in a bunch of drinks
people who know how to do an

international company's
accounts.

You can't bring in necessarily
marketing people who know how to

know all about drinks.
They know about how to do

marketing.
And one of the things we've

always sort of considered the
risky exchange.

One of the things I always felt
is that the drinks bit we can

teach people if people want to
learn about it.

And so one of the things I do
quite a lot of is I do internal

briefings to our various teams
who are not sort of like

necessarily entirely made-up
with drinks people to give that

more knowledge, give more
context to allow them to then

use their skills, which, you
know, learning about marketing,

learning about PR, learning
about all the weird e-commerce

bits and pieces that are out
there, which we do a lot of

focus on the e-commerce side of
things.

But analysis, you know, data
analysis, and you can do it as a

pure data analysis thing, just
looking at numbers and reporting

numbers, but having that little
bit of extra context gives you

the little bit more that you
need to turn that into truly

great analysis.
And that seems to be, for me,

the thing across lots of parts
of the industry, I've very much

looked down on people who
weren't drinks people when they

came in originally.
It's like, oh, another person

who hasn't got a clue what we're
talking about, ha ha, ha, ha.

We know better than them and
then they go, here's a pile of

numbers which demonstrate that
we should be probably be doing

this and thanks a lot for you
telling me about this the other

day.
This now makes sense.

Here's a bit more analysis.
You look at it and go, we need

that skill.
We can teach the drinks bit, but

that those skills very much, you
know, as we grow, if those

people are supported, if those
people are given the extra

information they need to be able
to provide those skills, the

context to give useful
information as as a little bit

of a Oh no, it's drinks people
all the way thing.

I see in a lot of smaller
companies especially, but

something like, you know, I
whiskey exchange is now part of

the Pune Record Group and that's
a big company that and so they

very much got over there because
you can't fill all the gaps with

passionate drinks people.
What we can do is turn as many

of those people into passionate
drinks people as we can

especially.
Training, you know, internally

and externally you have to set
certain modules now that that

you've got that, you know, it's
like OK to these people imagine

like this like the finance
department or, or people working

in banks, you know, like then
they may do an event on a

tasting or whatever.
It's different to have it for

those people and to have it for
these people or for marketing

people, you know, like it's kind
of like different kind of world

now.
So how, how do you set up the,

the level of expectation that
you want to give?

Because if we take the WSCT as
an example, now there's level 1,

level 2, Level 3.
You're talking about the same

topic, but you don't go into the
nitty gritty of this elation in

in the one now.
So one of the things that I'm

quite passionate about is that I
want everybody who works for us

to know a bit about what we do.
And a former head of HR said

this absolutely excellent to me.
One day she said, I, I need to

come and do some of your
training because I was at dinner

party the other day and so on
said, oh, who do you work for?

So I'm HR manager for the
whiskey exchange.

Oh, brilliant.
So what's your favorite whiskey?

And she went, I can do that.
There we go.

Yes.
So this is my favorite whiskey.

He said, do you know how they
make that?

So I've always wondered.
She's like, no, it's nice

though.
And so she said I need to know a

bit more because I want to be
able to talk.

I want to know a bit more about
what it is I do.

We want everybody in the company
to be as confident as they feel

they want to be.
We don't want to push people

into learning more than they
potentially need to.

If you're a frontline
salesperson, we're going to give

you a load of training because
you need to know that if you're

in our finance team, we're not
going to basically give you WSET

Level 3 because pretty much
nobody in our company needs WSET

Level 3, especially not somebody
you don't need it.

But if you're somebody who's
interested, we can potentially

offer this.
And you're saying our finance

team.
So the moment my most recent WCT

class I did, I trained up the
last of the people who've been

at the company longer than I,
who I've not already trained,

who is a colleague of mine who's
worked in the finance team since

pretty much the company started.
And she's just went, I'd like to

do it.
I'd like to see if I have

learned all this stuff over the
last 20 years.

You know, our head operations
joined in and came out with a

good result.
And it's like I did soak up more

information than I thought over
all these years.

And also in your training within
our company, I'm very, very keen

on getting everybody to have
some.

But the setting expectations is
very important because I have a

lot of people now who have done
Deb SET level 2 who go right

when it's Level 3.
It's like Level 3.

Level 2 is a 2 1/2 day course
with an hour long exam, which is

all multiple choice.
Level 3, we're probably going to

run it as a six day course
rather than A5 day course.

You have a book which you're
going to have to spend probably

a couple of hours a night
reading for at least a month

beforehand.
And then there is a 2 hour exam

with 1/2 hour tasting exam
beforehand.

There's an escalation there,
which I tell people that and

very quickly a lot of them go,
Oh yeah.

So actually one rule is that the
time I'm busy, off we go.

But other people are then really
interested in trying to manage

the expectations of how much we
can actually offer that because

it's a lot of work, but also how
much they might need and how

much they might enjoy it.
Because these things are often

more in depth and people might
think, as you say, you know how

in depth you go.
But it's very much something

that I'm keen on doing is trying
to ensure that people understand

what training is there and also
filling in gaps.

So I do these weekly briefings
at the moment where we just dive

onto a topic that's relevant for
our teams, brings people

together.
But I'm also developing more of

that at the moment, trying to
speak to our HR team about what

we can do.
That's more to try and provide

more because people are
interested.

And one of the things about I'd
be very lucky with when it comes

to work.
Strangely, on to my third job

ever.
In how old am I, 20 foot 28

years and what's my third job?
And that's including about being

a bartender at university.
So I'm not clearly my work

placement.
So I worked in finance for 10

years and one company.
I'm now been working the whiskey

world for Whiskey Exchange for
13 years.

I've been very fortunate to five
jobs where I'm interested in

what I'm doing.
Not everybody has that.

I understand that.
But I want to try and make sure

that anybody who is doing a job
they're not doing for pure love

of the job, they'll be trying to
give them some more stuff to

allow them to have interest and
learn why the wider thing that

we do is really interesting and
they can learn to love that.

The fact of, you know, managing
expectation, which is an

opinion, whatever in life in
general now it's the same for

me, like a DWST level 2 on wines
and level 2 on spirits.

And then I deliberately decided
not to do 3, you know, because

for me it's, it's not the right
time, You know, maybe in the

future I'll do it.
And, and it's also like a little

bit like doing, I don't know, a
bachelor university degree and a

master.
And then I could do an MBA now

after having worked for many,
many years, but I wouldn't do an

MBA after university, you know,
because if you haven't worked,

why do you do an MBA?
You know, So it's also like

depending on what you do now.
And it's the same thing with

career to be honest, because I,
I speak to a lot of people like

bartenders that want to become a
brand ambassador, brand

ambassadors that want to become
marketing managers, marketing

manager wants to become
marketing director or since

direct.
And it's like, yeah, but do you

know what it takes?
You know, do you know?

And it doesn't mean that it,
it's more difficult.

It's just like, it's a different
set of skills, but you may not

even like it.
So be careful.

What you wish for?
Because Are you sure you want

that promotion or is it just
about the money?

You know, what if I told you
that you get the salary of a

marketing manager as a brand
ambassador?

What if I tell you that you get
the salary of the marketing

director as a marketing manager
without those responsibility,

you know, would you still want
to do it?

Is it about the money, the pain?
Or do you actually believe that

that's going to be a good thing
for you?

I still remember I was mentoring
somebody from my old university,

second year student wanted to go
into the finance world and said

So what do you want to do?
What what job do you want to go

into?
She's a mathematician, and I

said I want to be a quant, a
quantitative analyst, which is a

thing which often PhD physicists
end up going into, gets like,

super scary.
So like mathematical analysis of

financial markets.
I said, that's really awesome.

So what is it about being a
quant that you really like the

idea of?
She said, I don't actually know

what they do.
OK, so why do you want to do it?

OK, It's meant to be really
cool.

She knew nothing about what the
job was, but she'd been told

that it was the thing she should
go for.

And this is the thing, you know,
this matches up with that.

You're working at a level and
you say, well, I get the

promotion to the next level.
It's like, do you really do you

do you just want to jump up
because that's what you do?

And as I said, I'm really
fortunate in that I've only had

a couple of jobs, but within
those jobs is I've been very,

again, I'm horrifically lucky
when it comes to work because I

haven't been just promoted to
the next level.

It's always been a, what do you
want to do in the company?

What is it you want to focus on?
In my previous life, I was a

computer programmer and my job
was to write code that grabbed

data and shut in a database.
That was that was my life.

I could do in cool ways.
That's the bit I may think it's

fun for myself to do in cool
ways, which I still remember the

phone call when they called me
up specifically to say we have

removed the last piece of your
code from our system.

We're having a party, which I
thought was nicer.

Thanks, Dave.
Yeah, he's my landlord now, so I

can't really complain.
I was then asked what do you

want to do?
And I said, well, I like

training.
And I like talking to students

and telling people why we're
great.

I like talking to people.
So they're right.

OK, you're now had a training
and recruitment as well.

And so I ran our training
programs and I ran our graduate

recruitment programs along with
the HR team in my previous

company for about a decade,
almost a decade before I handed

over the training to somebody
else who could dedicate more

time to it.
So I've taken on more

engineering responsibilities,
but I still did, you know, 10-15

careers fairs every autumn.
I would get out there and help

with recruitment.
I ran interviews and everything

like that because it was
something I was interested in.

I was really lucky to have a
company who said what do you

want to do?
And we did that to everybody.

What are your interests?
How can we tailor your role?

So you can do your main role but
also use your interests and your

skills to do something else.
And the song I had at the

Whiskey Exchange as well, I was
the guy wrote product

descriptions on the website.
Now I'm the guy who goes out and

talks about booze.
But with that, I also support

other teams with my technical
knowledge.

Help out a little bit on that.
I do bits of writing here and

there.
So all these things that you go

through, I've shifted around my
role and sometimes the company's

not necessarily going right and
offered me something and I've

gone, I don't want to be a head
of social media.

I really didn't want to be.
They said, well, by training,

it's like, yes, yes, that's what
I want to do.

And so I've been really
fortunate to work for companies.

And it's one of those things,
when I have advised my previous

company especially, there's
always been a see what people

were good at, see what they want
to do and see if you can channel

that.
Because that's the way to ensure

you're going to get people who
are passionate about what they

do.
I can do their job as well and

probably might stick around as
well, which is a very useful

thing.
When you start training people,

make sure they stick around and
use the training for you rather

than for other people.
Absolutely, I'm sorry, and I

have this say it's people go
into places that they didn't

even expect it or they didn't
know what they they want to do.

You know, like so to have that,
I mean, you, you mentioned many

times you were lucky, but I from
an outsider perspective, it's

also like you had the drive and
the passion to sell it in

yourself now, like because that
is also the thing that sometimes

we tend to think of job
descriptions as pretty made

roles, but I've done similar
things in the past.

You know, I invented job
descriptions for myself because

I had a vision of what I wanted
to do, you know, which then I

eventually ended up doing on my
own.

Anyway.
It's interesting, like when when

you had a clarity on what you
want to do now.

And I that's all for today's my
third drinks podcast.

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