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Ryan Graves, a former F-18 pilot and Executive Director of Americans for Safe Aerospace, joins us to delve into the intriguing and often perplexing world of UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena). We kick off the conversation by exploring Ryan’s journey from aviation novice to military aviator, discussing the intense training and experiences that shaped his career. He shares some mind-boggling encounters with mysterious objects during his service, including near misses that raise eyebrows and questions about airspace safety. Our discussion also touches on the growing concerns surrounding autonomous aircraft and AI in aviation, and how these technologies might impact the future of flying. As we wrap up, Ryan emphasizes the importance of transparency and reporting in addressing UAP sightings, inviting listeners to engage with their own experiences through his organization.
Check out Ryan’s organization Safeaerospace.org
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
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My name is Ryan Graves, I'm a
former F18 pilot in the US Navy and
I'm currently the Executive
Director at Americans for Safe Aerospace.
AV Nation, what is going on?
And welcome back to the Pilot
the Pilot podcast.
My name is Justin Seems and I
am your host.
Today's episode is with Ryan Graves.
Ryan is a former F18 pilot in
the Navy.
He's also the creator of
Americans for Safe Aerospace, where
it is the largest UAP advocacy
organization in the world.
Which is insane, as we all know.
In January there were some
crazy things flying around New Jersey
and Ryan and I kind of get
into it.
Not really get into it, but we
delve into the topic of it and we
just talk about what's going
on, what you can do and what you
can do.
If you see something that you
just cannot explain, you can go to
safe aerospace.org and you can
join 30,000 plus members and you
can report your UAP and it'll
do some great service and it'll help
figure out what's going on and
just get a better idea of maybe why
things are in our airspace
that shouldn't be.
But Ryan's conversation was great.
He's a former guest on Joe
Rogan, so this is the first time
I've ever interviewed someone
that was on the Joe Rogan Podcast.
So shout out to Ryan for doing
some crazy cool stuff, but we have
just a very candid and good talk.
We talk about his history in
flying, why he chose The Navy, why
he decided to be a pilot.
And then we get into what he's
doing professionally right now and
how he is trying to help and
also some autonomous talk as well.
So should we be worried about AI?
Should we be worried about
pilotless aircrafts?
Ryan tells us what he thinks.
That's at the end of the
episode, so make sure you stick on
for, for that.
But aviation, I hope you're
having a great day.
Thank you so much for 1000
reviews on Spotify.
It's unbelievable.
I can't believe that.
If you're listening on Apple
Podcast, we are close as well.
So if you haven't left a
review on Apple Podcast, please do.
I think we're at 9:30,
possibly maybe 9:27, but we're getting
close to a thousand on both
platforms, which is crazy.
You can also follow us on
YouTube as well, but I don't want
to take any more of your time.
So without any further ado,
here's Ryan Graves.
Ryan, what's going on, man?
Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.
Pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, man.
I'm excited to have you on a
lot of relevant stuff that we'll
get into later, especially
earlier this year with all the crazy
orb sightings and drones and
whatever it may be that you can enlighten
us on what was going on or any
kind of information you have.
But first, I really want to
focus on you, the aviator, you the
pilot, you the F18 pilot, and
kind of get a better idea of why
you became a pilot in the
first place.
So was it you being a three
year old looking up at the sky saying,
I like planes, let me go fly that?
Or was there kind of a better,
different story to that?
Yeah, you know, I know a lot
of guys had their stories when they
were younger, but for me, I
didn't grow up with really any aviation
in my family or too much
military service.
So it really wasn't even until college.
After my junior year, I was
doing a mechanical engineering and
fire protection major, did an
internship in Atlanta.
And they, they thudded a book,
you know, about 8 inches or so on
my desk and we were like, hey,
might as well start studying.
This is going to be most of
the rest of your career.
And I, you know, that caused
me to really take a reckoning of
what I wanted to do.
And, you know, I want to go
through life and thought, hey, what
is.
What is something that would
be, you know, much more challenging,
exciting and fit who I think I
want to be?
And the best answer I Came up
with was, you know, to fly jets,
perhaps in the Navy or the Air Force.
Changed my major, aerospace engineering.
Quit the internship and then
dedicated myself to make, you know,
preparing the best application
I could to ultimately to the Navy
in order to accomplish that.
So what did it look like after that?
So after you get this big old
book put on, you're like, all right,
jk, I don't want to do that anymore.
Was it looking at rotc, Was it
looking at how you can become an
officer?
Kind of.
What was the next steps that
you took to become the pilot?
Yeah, so for me, I wanted, I
wanted to get into fighters of some
type.
And at first I was thinking
the Air Force would be a good route.
They had, you know, a lot of
different fighters and bobbers, cool
aircraft.
It's the first thing you think of.
And so I started preparing
myself by earning my private pilot's
license.
So after college, I had about
a year to get ready and put my application
in.
I was working in Worcester,
Massachusetts, and I would drive
about an hour and a half
north, do flight training about three
or four times a week with
some, you know, crusty 75 year old
CFI.
I was half worried that would
have a heart attack in the aircraft.
Valid concerns, I'm not gonna lie.
And you know, I got, I got my.
It got myself to my solo and
my private pilot's license.
Just prior to that, I actually
withheld because I found out that
although the Air Force cared
about flight time, the Navy didn't
necessarily.
And in fact, if you went
through, you know, you got accepted
without your pilot's license,
you'd actually get an extra 30 hours
or so in a Cessna before you
even got into a military aircraft.
So I withheld getting my
private pilot's license so I could
get that extra 30 hours of
free training from the Navy.
Absolutely.
Someone else is going to pay
for it.
Sign me up.
Right?
Sure.
Yeah.
So, you know, part of my
decision too here was I also learned
that the Navy, you know,
although the Air Force has, you know,
many aircraft, the Navy has a
higher ratio of fighters to non fighters.
And of course they get to land
on the boat as well.
So ultimately I made the
decision to apply to the Navy versus
the Air Force.
And I went through Officer
Canada School, which meant, you know,
I paid for my own college, did
everything on my own and was able
to apply for a slot.
And I applied as a pilot and a
pilot only, and thankfully I got
accepted on my first pass.
Yeah.
Which is awesome.
Talk about some misconceptions.
People have, because obviously
you said that you had no experience
with aviation, you know,
family history.
A lot of people in that
situation, they're kind of like,
man, being a pilot just like,
isn't possible.
I got to be a genius.
I got to be smart.
I got to do all this stuff,
which we all know.
I, uh, we know some dumb
people that can fly airplanes.
Right.
But I mean, anyone can do
this, right?
Like, anyone can go, can go
fly, can go enjoy this career.
Uh, did you kind of have any
of those misconceptions early on,
or were you just like, no, I
can fly that.
If that dude can fly, that
girl can fly, I can go do that?
That was my general attitude.
You know, I threw myself
completely in.
There was no real option of
failure for me.
Um, and, you know, I was
entirely motivated to succeed and
challenge myself, which is why
I prepared myself with the most competitive
package I could by changing my
major and getting flight time.
But, you know, on the outside,
you don't really know what's important,
you know, in a career like that.
And frankly, it's almost
impossible to know because of, you
know, the classification of
tactics and things of that nature.
So you really don't know what
you're getting yourself into.
And, you know, as I progressed
through my career, I started to see
the skill sets and the
personalities and attitudes that
would be successful, not just,
you know, a resume, resume with certain
skill sets or an engineering background.
I flew with fantastic pilots
that, you know, were history majors
or physicists, you know, and
so while, you know, a fancy background
can help you, you know,
there's a certain personality type
and, and ego and, you know,
self criticism that's required to
be successful in that career.
And it doesn't matter what
your resume says.
Yeah.
I mean, and you can even take
that outside of that career, specifically.
You can put that in business,
you can put that in life.
I play football at Ohio State.
And the people that made it at
Ohio State from high school usually
had the right mentality.
The people that made it from
Ohio State to the NFL, you know,
they had that superior
mentality where they're able to go
past the alone.
And I feel like that kind of
correlates to aviation, correlates
to business, correlates to a
lot of things in your life.
Absolutely.
It correlates to life entirely.
Yeah.
But, you know, that, that
would, I would say was kind of the,
the, the different mentality.
And, you know, it's a career
where there's, there's different,
you know, gradations of, of
where you can End up right.
You can end up in a fighter
cockpit, you can end up in something
else.
And whatever you do, I
guarantee that you're going to love
it.
You know, even if I didn't get
fighters, I would at least already
convince myself that I was
gonna be perfectly happy in helicopters
and something else.
And I've seen it time and time again.
It's an incredible career,
regardless, you know, what platform
you're on.
Yeah.
And from the outside looking
in, it's kind of like the community
you go into.
Right.
Like every, every different
airplane in the military, whether
it be the Navy, the Air Force,
be a helicopter, be fixed wing, they
have their own special community.
And the brotherhood or the
sisterhood that you go into is what
really makes that career.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And when you talk about
mentality, did you have that mentality?
Was that an issue for you at all?
Did you have to kind of learn
how to be kind of mentally strong
like that?
Or was that something that
just kind of came natural to you?
I. I mean, I grew up playing,
you know, four or five sports a year
in high school, you know,
basically since I was a kid.
So I think in some set I
already had that, that drive and
motivation, and I just didn't
know perhaps where to put it.
You know, as I was going
through high school and college,
I hadn't found that real
passion yet.
And, you know, I learned what
my passion wasn't through the episode
I shared with you.
But as soon as I saw that kind
of future, future vision for myself
flying fighters, I mean, it
was like I was already there, you
know, I just had to work
myself to get there.
Yeah.
I was entirely motivated.
There was no opportunity for
failure, you know, at least within
what I could control.
Right.
But being a pilot, sometimes
there's a lot of things you can't
control.
Eyesight or issues, you know,
that prevent you from meeting the
criteria to get in the cockpit.
But in that sense, I was fortunate.
Although I did have laser eye
surgery in order to correct my vision.
You gotta do what you gotta
do, right?
Yeah, you gotta do what you
gotta do.
Um, yeah.
Can you talk a little bit
about the training itself?
Cause you mentioned you had
the 33 hours we can go on a Cessna,
but you go from the Cessna to
a very high performance airplane,
very fast.
Can you talk about the
transition from flying a 172 or 152
and going into the military trainers?
Yeah.
You know, I mean, the
mechanics are the same in some sense.
Right.
In a Cessna Verse, our first
trainer in the Navy, which is the
T34, when I went through, is
now the T6.
But regardless, you're looking
at about a 600 horsepower prop aircraft,
perhaps a little bit more with
the T6.
And so while it is a power
jump, you're still just moving in
a slightly faster Cessna in a
lot of different ways.
You might have the power to
do, you know, a loop or to do some
spins and have a little bit of
fun, fly some formation.
But, you know, your speeds are
relatively, you know, they're not
too much removed from a
Cessna, right?
Maybe a couple hundred miles
an hour, maybe 300.
But, but you don't get that
rush and, but that's, you know, that's
kind of your first basis.
So you go into the Cessna, you
get the 30 hours.
It's like any other civilian training.
But getting into a military
aircraft, it's not just the system
is different, but the
standards of operation are much higher.
In the civilian world we have
emergency procedures.
Some of them are perhaps bold
face, but no one's sitting there
quizzing you in your face on
what the exact words are in the pre
brief, necessarily to the
degree that we do in the military.
There's this whole level of
expectation and performance and standards
which we need to rise to even
as early as your primary training
in order to just be minimally
competent and ready to go in the
aircraft.
And, you know, that's a place
where a lot of people can weed out
because they realize that like
the amount of work and the book work
and the knowledge that's
required doesn't match perhaps the
kind of romantic vision of,
you know, flying around the clouds
without a care in the world.
All right, so, you know, it
kind of butts up against reality
in that sense and it's a good,
good proving ground where people
get filtered out who can't do
that kind of minimum required knowledge.
And you do, like I said, some
basic flying formation, you know,
instrument flying, things of
that nature.
But the big jump comes after
primary, and after primary they tell
you what your platform is
going to be essentially.
So you're either going to tail
hook, which is anything that lands
on the aircraft carrier, or
you're going in a helicopter or you're
going in a big wing like an E6 aircraft.
And so I, I was selected for
Tailhook, which meant I had about
a 90 chance of getting jets.
About 10% of people get sent
to the E2 or C2, the cargo aircraft,
or the over the horizon Raider
aircraft that land on the carrier.
So I was signed Mardi, Mississippi.
That's where we jump into the
T45 goshawk, a training aircraft.
I believe it's about 8 or
16,000 horsepower.
But now it's a, it's a real jump.
Now we're driving a real jet.
Things move significantly,
noticeable, noticeably faster from
the, you know, the roll down
the Runway to the time you have to
put your gear up to.
Everything just happens in an
accelerator frame rate.
And that's, you know, almost
one of the biggest initial challenges
of going into, you know,
starting into that fighter pipeline
is realizing that things
happen a lot faster for you than
almost anyone else.
And you need to be thinking,
you know, several steps ahead of
the jet, the aircraft just to
kind of be competent.
And we do, you know, then we
start ramping up the tactics.
You know, some very basics.
How do you roll in and drop a
bomb, how do you fly tactical formation,
how do you fly down low
landing on the aircraft carrier for
the first time.
I don't believe they, they've
actually stricken that training since
I've been there.
But that's, you know, where I
went to the aircraft carrier for
the first time to land during
the day.
And so it's, it's, it's, you
know, it's pretty intensive.
There's, this is where you
really start getting that technical,
you know, challenge of are you
a good enough pilot to be able to
accomplish what you're going
to need to be able to accomplish
professionally?
Yeah.
To be safe and you know,
again, it's a weeding out process.
Some people end up to the, you
know, are out.
Some people transfer helicopters.
You have folks that go to E2C2
pipeline and then the rest are assigned
to various fighter squadrons
on the east and west coast.
Out of there I've finished and
was assigned to VFA106, the F18 Fleet
Replacement Squadron.
And now this is, I'm now a
winged aviator in the Navy, but still
untrained on my fleet platform.
So I, I now go through another
year of Training on the F18 in Virginia
beach and this is where we're
done being taught how to fly.
And it's more about learning
how to employ the system aircraft
as a weapon.
I think you solo in the F18 on
your second or third flight in it
and you're off to the races.
And again, you know, although
at the time it felt like we were
very much in the weeds,
looking back, it was very much a
surface level exposure to what
we're going to be doing in the fleet.
You know, how to operate the
radar, how to operate the flir all
the different air to surface
considerations, all the air to air
tactic, but very basic level,
just so that you can understand what
the basic mechanisms are and
how to operate.
And again, back to the carrier
in the daytime, in the nighttime.
At this point, once you finish
that training, you're off into your
fleet squadron.
Right.
And so typically it's time
such that you finish your training
and then you have maybe six
months to eight months to go through
a full workup cycle to work
with the squadron and get sent out
on a deployment.
Certain individuals are
selected for what's called priority
Alpha.
If you're, you know,
consistently, you know, above average
and you nail the boat
essentially at the end, you can be
immediately forward deployed
to an active squadron that's deployed.
And that's what I was like for.
I did well at the boat and
about two to three weeks after I
finished the rag, I was out in
the Middle east aboard the USS Enterprise
and flew my first combat
mission about a week after that.
So things can happen kind of
fast Once, once you're done with
that training.
Right.
Like two weeks in, you're
like, all right, let's go, let's
go to work.
Yeah.
And, you know, I get there, I,
I essentially qual on the various
weapons that they're using for
their loadout.
Yeah.
Understand how they're operating.
I can be effective in that
type of, you know, air superiority
environment, if you will.
But, you know, we went through that.
Very interesting.
We come back and now we come
back and I start going through what
I would consider the real training.
This is when we start going
through our strike fighter weapons
syllabus training syllabus as
like active fighter pilots, strike
pilots.
And that takes us, you know,
all the way through being an effective
wingman in a combat
environment up to leading a division
of aircraft into air to air,
air to surface combat.
And that takes you, you know,
all the way up basically three or
four year, four years that
you're there.
Yeah.
Most people finish with a
section lead or division lead qualification.
And these are all like, all
right, we're using bleeding edge
tactics, you know, against,
you know, new threats, X, Y and Z.
It's the full bore, you know,
and that's where it gets extremely
challenging.
You know, that's your, your
PhD level kind of thesis work, if
you will, of, of, of being
able to operate and execute these
tactics and, you know, change
with the, with the environments in
a fluid way.
Conducting seamless air to air
and air to surface missions, rescue
missions, counter, you know,
surface air missile missions, electronic
warfare missions.
Where we in the Navy are
expeditionary, we have to do everything
right.
We can't just call in the
bombers or calling, you know, fighter
only aircraft.
We have to do all those missions.
And so we get, you know,
constant training on all types of
warfare that we could see in
an aircraft.
Yeah.
And it's really interesting
because it's always something that,
you know, when everyone looks
at a profession, they see where they
are.
Now think about all the hard
work and everything that took into
it.
It's really just you build on
each, each, each step, like step
by step as you go, right?
Like the throw stuff at you,
you finish it, you go on to the next
step, and then eventually you
have this whole kind of regimen,
a whole kind of training that
you did.
And now you're able to go lead
people, you're able to go do everything
that this mission allows you,
which I think that the, the military
does such a good job at
preparing people for that kind of,
that kind of mission and that
kind of flying.
Absolutely.
And you don't get that, you
know, anywhere else.
And you can only do it, you
know, with incredibly motivated people
that, you know, believe in
what they're doing.
Um, there's, you know, there's
no job like that with a salary large
enough to motivate people to
take those risks and go out there.
That's not something that you
believe doing.
Yeah, 100%.
Did you have any humbling
moments in your training at all?
Like the way you're looking
back on it, the way you're talking
on it now, like it's all good
stuff, but you ever have any moments,
you're like, man, holy smokes.
Like, this stuff's hard, like,
I can't do it anymore.
Or just kind of like a flight,
we're just kind of down on.
Down on yourself?
Yeah.
I, I mean, where do you start?
You know, I mean, that is the
nature of being in that cockpit and
operating in high risk environments.
Right.
You can perform your best, but
you're never going to be perfect.
And you know, there will be mistakes.
And you know, some of them can
be big mistakes, right.
From releasing ordinance on
the wrong target or performing unsafely
behind the boat.
The, the mental errors that
lead to character flaws.
Right.
Like not preparing for a
mission and things like that.
Obviously those things get
weeded out, you know, in the, in
the training environment.
But when you're active on the
boat, it.
I tell people, they ask, you
know, what's that career like?
It's so hard to imagine.
I say, it's got you know, the
most incredible highs you can imagine
as far as what you're able to
do and go out there and the responsibilities.
But it's got incredible lows
as well.
Yeah.
You know, you have a lot of
people relying on you.
And like I said, nobody's perfect.
There's a lot of
responsibility, a lot of room for
errors, and it's your job to
navigate that, not just in life,
but perhaps on the same
flight, flight, especially in the
Navy, where, you know, you
have to perhaps go out and support
troops hopefully successfully
in combat and perhaps, you know,
you have a good experience,
perhaps you have a bad experience,
but at the end of the day, you
still need to come back and focus
all your energy at landing on
the boat after a 10 hour flight,
you know, at 1 in the morning
after you've, you know, had whatever
flight you had.
And so you got to be able to,
to walk that line on both sides of
it.
So, I mean, I could list 100
examples, but, you know, I think
anyone that's in that cockpit
has, you know, a long laundry list
of, you know, humbling experiences.
Oh, yeah, I would, I would
hope so, because you learn from those
humbling experiences.
Right.
You use those either failures
or those mistakes and then you, you
make better, you do better
because you realize that you have
to do it for your team, for
the country, for the mission, for
everyone.
Like you said, you're not only
supporting the people around you
flying, but oftentimes people
on the ground too.
Right.
So there's, there's really no
room for.
Error and there's, there's no
room for error.
But impossible, you know,
perfection is an impossible standard
as well in that cockpit.
And you know, I've seen people
go through, you know, as a, as a
flight instructor, incredibly
motivated, capable, intelligent people,
I mean, like you said,
dreaming about being, you know, perhaps
a fighter pilot or pilot, you
know, since they were three years
old.
And you know, sometimes
they've gone their whole lives in
some sense without failing.
Right.
But you, you can't get through
aviation, especially naval aviation,
without hitting some type of
failure point.
You absolutely will.
And you know, whether you're
right for that job or not is going
to be how you respond to those failures.
Yeah, 100% agree.
And you want to see how you
handle diversity too, right?
Like the Navy wants to see how
you handle diversity.
They don't want your first
time handling diversity being in
a critical mission, because
then you're kind of up in like, no
one knows really what the
outcome could be.
So if you train it Train it,
train it, train it, train it.
And if you have the ability to
see the failure, understand the failure
and learn from it, then you're
just become a better person, a better
aviator, just overall better
at your job.
Right?
Yep.
It goes to the old adage that,
you know, we don't rise to the difficulty
of the occasion.
You know, we fall back to the
level of our training.
Yeah.
Let's take a break from
today's podcast to hear from our
sponsor raa.
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backslash pilot to pilot.
When you look back on landing
on a boat.
I'm an airline guy, you know,
I fly 737.
I cannot imagine lining up on
a moving target that's going up and
down with the waves that's
moving around, especially shooting
an IFR approach.
Someone talking you through,
like talk me through one.
Just the first time you ever
land on a boat, like what's your
mentality like are you just
like this is not possible or I mean
talking to you sounds like
you're like let's go.
Like I can do this, it's gonna
be awesome.
But just talk about just the
initial process of learning how to
land on a boat.
Yeah.
Gosh.
So let me start with the process.
You know, we do that with a
team of experts called landing signal
officers or LSOs.
And these are pilots that are
within the squadrons in the air wing
and they're, there's both a
team in the squadron and they operate
as a kind of distributed group
when they're on the aircraft carrier.
So before you go to the boat,
the LSOs are responsible for qualifying
everyone and ensuring they're
safe before they go on their deployment.
And these are lieutenant
ranked, you know, O3 level officers,
which is a relatively low
officer rank for the amount of responsibility
that they have.
But there are circumstances
where perhaps the skipper of the
squadron is unsafe during the,
what we call FCLP warm up period,
the training to go to the boat.
It is still that O3's
responsibility to clear him for the
boat.
And there's been instances
where, you know, commanding officers
or squadrons have been unsafe
and not allowed to deploy.
And, you know, the integration
with LSOs start in the training command
very early on because it is a
big trust issue and you don't want
an O6 barking down at you how
to fly your aircraft when you're,
you know, essentially scared
alone behind the back of the boat
on a bad day.
You want, you know, your peer
out there who can keep you calm and
talking down onto the boat.
And that's been part of the
philosophy of, of, you know, how
these individuals are selected
and, you know, their rank and whatnot.
And so this starts at the field.
You know, hundreds of passes
at the field.
There'll be LSOs out there and
we use a islet system, a lens with
the datum, a horizontal green
datum and a ball that essentially
moves up and down or at least
appears to.
And that's how you tell where
you are on glide slope, where that
ball position is.
So it's above that datum,
you're high, you might bring some
power back to settle the ball down.
If you're low, you want to add
power to get it above the datums.
And if you're right on the
datums, when you come across the
boat, you're going to, you
know, snag that three wire, ideally.
And so the, the pilots,
especially the students, are essentially
getting talked down by the LSOs.
They're getting graded for
their passes all the way from the
180 position to the 90 all the
way through.
They're essentially getting
graded with the special attention
once they roll out.
And that builds that trust.
You know, they're able to,
there's a whole language that we
use to grade them across
different parts.
So they might be high at the
start, high, come down in the middle,
settle in close, low at the
ramp, right?
So you delineate, you break
the different parts of the pass down
and you can tell the story of
how they were flying across the glide
slope.
And we use that debrief every
single pass in the grade them.
Right.
And so that starts in the
training command and it Continues
all the way into the fleet,
all the way to the boat, all the
way to combat the deployments.
Every landing, there's a group
of LSOs out in the platform with
a radio, literally talking to
the pilot to help them on every pass.
If the weather goes bad,
visibility is low on the far end
of the spectrum.
Worst case scenario, they
can't see that landing system on
the boat.
LSOs can't even see the aircraft.
And what you'll hear is
perhaps one of the worst calls you
can hear behind a boat, which
is 99 taxi lights on.
And what that means is that
the LSOs, it's so foggy, it's so
hazy, that the LSOs are going
to visually pick up your landing
light and they're going to
verbally land your aircraft for you
through your controls by
talking down onto the back of the
boat.
And you can imagine the level
of trust it takes to do that.
Right.
And that's why that
relationship has started so early.
I was at lso.
I was trained as LSO in my squadron.
I was the head landing signal
officer for my squadron.
And, you know, I got to do
this across multiple deployments.
Yeah.
And so, you know,
specifically, like I said, they get
all those landings at the
field, but then eventually they go
to the boat in the T45 during
the daytime.
It's, you know, it's a crazy experience.
It's hard to.
It's just like this constant
adrenaline high, you know, going
through it doesn't feel real.
It's almost like a dream.
You're up there, you're flying
out into the oceans.
Everything's blue.
And then you just see this
very small ship down there, right?
And you're flying for him as a student.
You're by yourself, right?
Your instructor's in the lead aircraft.
There's three of you on his
wing, and he's going to drop you
off over the boat, and you're
going to break into the pattern by
yourself, and you're going to
spend the rest of the day in your
own jet landing on the
aircraft carrier.
But when you're descending
down to get to that point over the
ship, as you know, wingman,
you're just staring at the lead.
You're not, like, just staring
at the ship and taking it all in.
So at first you just see it
way in the distance, maybe 20 miles
away.
It's a small little dot and
like, wow, I can't believe I'm gonna
land on that.
Then the next thing you know,
you're breaking over the carrier
at 600ft, 800ft.
And you're like, you know,
holy smokes.
Like this.
This is.
It's almost hard to put in the words.
It's just so in your face.
It's so large.
It's.
You can see the activity on it.
And it's like, it's like,
holy, this is very real right now.
And then you're stuck in this
like, like just ever this intensely
present state of just making
sure you do every little thing that
you are supposed to do and
that we're trained to do, and continue
doing that until you
essentially touch the touchdown on
the ship.
First time you touch down,
what's going through your mind?
You're like, I do it.
Do I do it?
Am I here?
No thoughts, because the
moment I touched down, my body and
everything else was flung forward.
And, you know, your arms and
legs are basically like this because
there's so much force and
accelerating down.
And then as often happens, you
know, it didn't happen to me.
But often the first time you
land, the tower has to come up and
tell you to bring your
throttle back because you just totally
forget you're missing the signal.
But you bring your throttle
back and you're.
You're still very much in it.
You're now taxing on the
busiest, you know, pavement space
on the planet for aircraft.
And you have as dangerous as a
mission as you just had a moment
ago to follow the flight
directors go through your procedures,
not run anyone over, not go
off the side of the deck so it doesn't
stop.
And typically you're taxing
right back to the cat.
Now you're shooting off for
the first time within a minute to
go do it again.
Just like, just when you're
talking about that, seeing like this
little tiny boat out in the
distance, I'd be like, oh, my God,
what did I get myself into?
You know, it's like, it's game time.
Let's go.
Let's buckle up.
Oh, man, that's crazy.
It's just for someone that's
never had that opportunity to do
that, like, I can't even.
I don't even think I can truly
understand what the feelings you're
going through when you're
doing that for the first time.
Yeah.
You're trusting someone else.
Right.
You got the ls.
So that's.
That's guiding you in.
So there's got to be this
immense trust.
And then, you know, you're off
just a little bit.
Things can go very badly, very
fast in that environment.
And especially when you're
talking about when they need your
taxi light on to even just be
able to see you, to guide you in,
man.
Kudos to you guys.
That's amazing.
I love, always love getting
the military perspective just because
I've always been civilian on
my side.
And it's just so cool.
It's so cool to hear.
And it's, it's just such a.
It sounds like such a
revolution rewarding and such a great
career to go through and, and
so many people look back on it very
fondly.
Yeah, it was an incredible
experience and it's one of those
jobs where, you know, you
can't do it forever.
Yeah, right.
And so, you know, at least I
always tried to appreciate just how,
you know, awesome it was, what
I was getting to do for that small
sliver of my life.
Yeah, I think that's a.
A hard thing to do.
Right.
Like, I think that's a learned
skill to be able to appreciate the
time of life that you're in
because a lot of times that you're
never going to be able to
experience what you're experiencing
either right now or in the military.
But that's something that's
very hard to do.
Yeah, absolutely.
So kudos to you for having
that mentality when you look back
on your career.
Do you.
I mean, obviously talk about
looking back fondly, you enjoyed
it, but can you think of like,
just like one overall moment that
was kind of like, man, this
is, this is what it's like being
a military pilot.
Yeah.
I mean, there's, you know,
I've had some incredible training
flights.
Right.
Because I've got to got.
I got a lot of specialized training.
I got to do Ford air
controller airborne, which means
I got to take command of
battle space, employ other jets,
you know, like tools.
I got to do combat search and
rescue where I would lead the whole
air wing in if anyone was shot
down while we were out there, to
go rescue them and fight our
way in, fight our way out.
But all that pales in
comparison to just being operational.
Right.
You know, there's all the
crazy experiences of landing on the
boat and many more we haven't
talked about and the challenges of
training, you know, flying a
real opera operational mission, you
know, with ordinance, with
people on the ground, with bad guys
hurting people, going out
there and employing and doing the
mission, helping people.
Yeah.
You know, there's nothing like it.
And up to that point, I would
say, you know, I think perhaps like
many people, you know,
secretly, at least, you know, I was
probably a pilot for mostly
selfish reasons.
It was just a Cool thing for me.
You know, I enjoyed the buttons.
I enjoyed the technology.
I enjoyed, you know, the.
The teamsmanship and the
challenge of it all and, you know,
what it represented.
But flying a combat mission,
dropping ordinance, pushing the button,
you know, it.
You know, it very quickly
comes back to you, you know, how
much bigger your mission is
and just yourself, you know, why
you're doing this.
And, yeah, that was, you know,
it just kind of changes your perspective.
You know, everything we've
done is just to support those guys
on the ground.
And it was, you know, just,
you know, just a mind.
Not a mind shift.
But it was just a refreshing
change to say, like, I can be effective.
I can help this now.
My training was effective.
I mean, some people go through
their whole.
Whole, you know, fighter
careers without dropping, you know,
ordinance.
Right?
So to actually be able to
utilize that training to help, you
know, guys on the ground was incredible.
Do you ever have the
opportunity to find out, not necessarily
who you help, but, you know,
whether it's in a movie and always
hear, like, they're at the bar
and they're like, oh, dude, you're
the one that flew.
Like, they somehow they put it
all together.
But was there, like, a moment
where you real, like, you.
You're able to meet up with
people that you helped on the ground
or anything?
No, unfortunately, that.
That didn't happen.
There's been a few folks that
I've met that were operational in
similar places, but.
And recognize our call signs,
but don't know if it was them.
Just them individually.
Yeah, yeah.
As you're starting to
transition out of the military, was
there ever a plan?
I mean, a lot of military
pilots say they kind of see their
career like, all right, I have
this, the skill.
I can go fly airplanes.
I'm to just going to continue
this up, go Southwest, go to American,
go to Delta.
Was ever that thought that
you're going to continue and just
fly as a fair career?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I. I finished my
career out as an instructor in Mary,
Mississippi, instructing the
T45 goshawk.
And it's.
It's kind of like a pipeline,
if you will.
I mean, you build a bunch of
hours there, and then, you know,
it's the time of your career
where you can get out.
So people make the decision,
either stay or get out, and, you
know, build their hours so
they can go into the airlines and,
you know, it's hard not to
want to do that.
You hear them talking about
the good life and, you know, how
much you're making all that
Good stuff.
Yeah.
But it was never, it was never
my passion to fly, you know, big
wing aircraft around the country.
And for me, I wanted to be
more stable and home more, especially
after, you know, being in the
Navy for 11 years and travel around,
you know, getting out was a
point where I could, you know, starving
kids and being around more.
And I didn't want to be gone a
lot in airlines, but I still did
pursue it.
With all being said, it just
was still too juicy of a carrot.
And I did pursue it.
I had a job at American
Airlines for a short amount of time
until I left and went into the
defense industry where I got really
unique opportunity to work in
advanced research and Development
center where we did a lot of
work with DARPA for advanced capabilities
for fighter aircraft.
Oh, cool.
Which is right up my alley and
you know, really interesting stuff
to me.
So I, I decided to switch into
that and now I'm, you know, working
with, you know, folks in the
defense industry to bring forward
advanced autonomy capabilities
for next generation fighters.
Dang, that's quite the job.
When you, you talk about that,
like, I mean, airline pilots, they
love to tell you how great it
is, right?
They're like, oh, dude, I made
600 grand.
I flew eight, like two trips.
You know, like they're the
first ones to tell you how great
their life is.
And it's one of those things
that's hard to not just kind of fall
into and just, just do it,
even if it doesn't work out perfectly.
Your life like this is what
pilots do.
We fly in the military, we go
to the airlines, we retire, we go
on layovers, and we drink beer.
That's pretty much what people
think pilots do sometimes.
Right?
But was it hard for you to
walk away from that carrot, as you
said, that kind of just that
easy life, that easy job, you know,
was it, was that a hard
decision for you to do or was it
just like, you know what?
But what's truly going to make
me happy is, is working in the defense
industry or being able just to
stay at home more with my kids and
my family.
Yeah, I think it was a little
bit like, you know, the experience
I had with that book being
plopped on my desk a bit, you know,
maybe not quite as sudden,
but, you know, working with the reserve
guys who are constantly
flying, you know, in the airlines,
you know, some of those guys
were flying during 9 11.
Right.
And although salaries can be
good, there's also a lot of turmoil
that can happen and
uncertainty and mergers and, you
know, there's a Lot of
rigidity in the, the corporate structure
and the ranking system in the
airlines that, you know, made it
very clear that there wasn't
going to be a lot of flexibility
or opportunity to do anything
other than that.
Right.
Like I, I guess I, I could
obviously, you know, I could always
expand and do these hobby
projects or podcasts or something,
but I, I felt like I was going
to be locked into that right.
In a manner that was going to
restrict me in a way that I didn't
want.
So it was tough.
I didn't think I was walking
away from aviation per se.
Just flying in big wing
aircraft and you know, a nice check.
I'd love to continue to fly.
I don't fly at the moment, but
you know, I would love to when the
time's right, when I'm around
an area with something fun to rent,
to be able to go out and do
some low level and aerobatic flying,
which is stuff I always like
to do.
But I don't have, I don't have
any regrets in, in making that change.
No.
Good man.
That's awesome.
Yeah, I mean it's a kudos to
you for realizing that because you
know, sometimes you get stuck
in this and you just realize, you
know, the, the lot of money at
the end of the career, right.
You're going to retire with X
amount of million in your bank and
you're just gonna be miserable
your whole life and being able to
just to decide like, hey, I
want to do something else.
Like, I think that's awesome.
And you did mention, right
like being an airline pilot, you
do have the ability to have
hobbies like a podcast or be a real
estate agent.
Like you do have time off.
But it's truly you're still an
airline pilot.
Like that's still your job.
You're still searching for
trips, you're still look, making
sure you get the paycheck that
you want.
So I think it's awesome that
you're doing that.
Are you able to say anything
that you're working on with county
beer defense contracts?
They're pretty hush hush.
You know, I'll just say, you
know, it's, it's no secret that you
know, autonomy and small form
factor drones and computing and you
know, machine intelligence is
getting much more advanced and you
know, there's a lot of
problems in the military as far as
retention with you know, cost
benefit of being able to send highly
exquisite assets after say,
you know, $200 drone.
You know, we're at a pretty
difficult place as kind of a legacy
Fleet of capabilities, perhaps
trying to now operate in a world
where there's more autonomy
and small form factor threats, whether
they be boats or air traffic.
How do we integrate, you know,
the massive amount of data that these
systems bring in from across
the carrier strike group into real
time, you know, decisions and
actions that can be used to send
autonomous assets to deal with
threats, you know, at a high level,
without having to have, you
know, a bunch of guys behind computer
screens trying to process, you
know, individual threats, you know,
in a large swarm.
Yeah.
And so this level of like,
autonomy and integration with unmanned
assets is going to require a
strategic rethinking of how we employ
carrier strike groups, how we
design them, how we man them, how
we operate on them, how we
integrate air traffic, how we design
our sensors.
And, you know, that's the kind
of space that I look at to help define
what's possible in the future
so that we can build those capabilities
to enable that distributed,
resilient capability through the
Navy with manned and unmanned assets.
Yeah.
And when you hear about this
kind of stuff in the news, right.
You see Ukraine doing it, you
see Russia having the ability to
do it, do you.
Would you say that us as a
country, are we behind in any of
these capacities or are we
right where we need to be?
We are definitely behind in
our ability to respond to UAVs.
Of course, we have some very
sophisticated technology when it
comes to, you know, drones and
swarming, but of a military class.
Right.
Of what's perhaps useful
against a nation state, but non state
actors or small state actors,
or terrorist organizations or companies
that want to spy through third
parties can utilize small form factor
drones that cause, you know, a
lot of havoc and uncertainty over
military bases.
They can shut down runways,
never mind if they're actually armed
and want to take out parked aircraft.
Right.
How, how easy would that be?
So, you know, part of the
problem is that our defensive structure
in the United States over the
continental United States is designed
for a particular type of
international missile threat.
Retuning, reconfiguring, and
redistributing data of small form
factor threats at low
altitudes is a different type of
challenge that I don't think
we fully integrated into our defense
structure.
There are progress being made
on, you know, UAV detection kits,
if you will, like multimodal
ones that can be used to track these,
that can be placed at bases.
Of course, there's a lot of
work going on for doing that for
defense, you know, overseas,
but to bring that back home on the
bases or even deploy it onto
civilian land, you start running
into a lot of policy and
regulatory limitations, which is
another way that we're not
prepared for this threat.
We don't have properly
controls and procedures to be able
to mitigate the threat.
And that's what we saw last
year with New Jersey to a certain
degree, where no one really
seemed to know how to respond to
this threat.
Yeah, I mean, that I was flying.
I was kind of like six months
into my airline career, and I was
just like, oh, drones, drone
drones, orbs.
And, you know, I was flying in
LaGuardia, and sure enough, outside
your window, I just see this,
like, floating orb or whatever it
may be, which we can get into
if you know anything.
Anything.
But it was just.
It was just wild, right?
Like, it's just like, so
interesting to think that one.
Either we don't know what it
is or the fact that, you know, let's
not tell everyone, because we
don't want to freak everyone out
what it actually is.
But just the idea that this
kind of, like you said, there's no
way where we are right now,
it's hard to prevent anything like
that from happening.
Right.
Like, our whole military is
designed, like you said, for other
ballistic missiles or for
other kind of threats.
Right.
This is also new.
I mean, look at Russia when
Ukraine and launched all those drones
from.
From the back of a van.
It's like no one knew that was
even possible until now.
Right.
It's just like we don't know
how to respond to that.
Which is super interesting,
but kind of looking back and going
back to that time, what.
What all do you know about
what was going on then?
Yeah.
Well, when you say time, you
mean in around New Jersey, correct?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, Let me.
Let me just.
Let me preface this a little
bit and say, you know, for those
not aware, you know, when I
was operating Virginia beach in the
F18, after I came back from
that first deployment, we were picking
up a number of objects in our
working areas.
We had just upgraded our radar
to a much more advanced APG79 AESA
radar.
And that's kind of when this
whole conversation started for me.
We were detecting numerous
objects in our areas that were behaving
in ways that we wouldn't expect.
Either stationary supersonic,
0.6 to 0.8 Mach, and circular racetrack
patterns, you know, rapid
accelerations and heading changes.
We didn't know what to make of it.
We correlated them across all
our sensors on our jet and eventually
visually ID Them.
After a near miss at the
entrance to our working areas, they
Described it as a dark gray or
black cube inside of a clear sphere.
But that kind of is what set
me down this road.
I mean, our squadron continued
to have these interactions while
we were there.
When we prepared for our
second deployment, we went on a workup
cycle off the coast of
Jacksonville, Florida.
We had dozens of incidences
down there to the point where the
Admiral, you know, was sending
emails, threatening to shut the exercise
down.
You know, who was ever
controlling these, wasn't able to
remove them because we had
multiple near misses.
And this is a carrier strike
group training exercise.
Prepare for deployment.
Like, if this exercise gets,
you know, canceled, that's going
to be a note on the
President's desk because we're not
be able to deploy properly in
two months.
So, you know, it's a pretty
big deal.
And so, you know, they were there.
We had those instances.
We.
We left for deployment.
I have a few reports from guys
seeing them, you know, over there
as well.
And then I eventually left the
squadron to go be that flight instructor
in Ridding, Mississippi, and
kind of forgot about it until 2017
when a new York Times article
came out that had footage from our
Jacksonville cruise workup
exercise with some of the videos
that guys in my squadron captured.
And that's when I decided to
try to speak out about this, because,
you know, as a pilot, to have
unknowns in your operating area,
I think, you know, listen to
this conversation, you can see why
that's so critical.
But, I mean, so many of our
systems are designed to tell who's
who out there.
Are we shooting a commercial
airliner or the MIG that's flying
next to it, or our own Blue
Air guy that's approaching them?
We have to know that it's
critical to everything we do.
And so to have this one class
of object on a radar that we just
kind of ignored was a huge red
flag for me.
Never mind the safety issues
coming with, you know, multiple near
misses within 500ft of these objects.
That's when I decided to speak.
I was like, I'm in a training squadron.
I'm not deployable.
I have more time.
Maybe I can, you know, provide
some information to help resolve
this.
Because no one seemed to be helping.
In fact, the only thing that
had been done after almost two years
of this continuous issue was
to post a NOTAM to say, hey, be careful.
Unknown objects operating in
the working area.
Use caution.
Yeah, cool.
Thanks.
Appreciate it.
Yeah, great, thank you.
And so I. I reached out.
I ended up speaking to Senate
Armed Service Committee, Sunny Select
Committee on Intelligence, and
then ultimately Testifying before
Congress in July of 2023 on,
on this issue, and not just the issues
that we had, but I started
receiving hundreds of reports from
other pilots and veterans and
regular people who were, you know,
sometimes seeing similar
things, sometimes seeing different
things, but ultimately all
felt that this was something like.
Agreed that this was a
national security issue and that
we needed to pay attention to it.
And to get back to your
question, you know, we, we received
a lot of reports around the
time frame when everything was happening
around New Jersey, but not
everyone is aware that that didn't
start last year in New Jersey.
It's been going on in that
area for, since about 2022 at Langley
Air Force Base with some
earlier reports.
In 2021, 2023 we saw increased
activity and 2024 we saw it spread,
you know, significantly more
as well as the report reports around
the country at different
military bases from Ohio and Washington
State.
I mean, even there were
sightings 15 minutes from my house
in New Hampshire all the way
up the coast and down to Florida.
And so, you know, what, what
was it?
Right.
One, there was a ton of noise, right?
So I think the reason there
were so many sightings during that
period is that it started
getting, you know, national attention.
More people were looking up,
people were launching their own drones
to see what they could see.
The military or, you know,
police are doing their thing.
And so there was a lot of
noise that was injected into it once
it kind of spread.
But at the core I'm confident
that there, you know, and we've seen
this in our reports that there
are some anomalous behaviors at the
core of this that kind of kick
this off.
And so, you know, what does
that look like?
We have about 149 reports from
that period, that time period in
that location, and you know,
consistent reports of, you know,
spherical objects that are
being seen with the eye as well as
with camera that, you know,
have multiple colors in them that
are spherical, either self
illuminated or not.
A number of these objects seem
to be exhibiting signal management
capabilities, right.
Between law enforcement and civilians.
People haven't been able to
track them with RF Radar has been
failing.
Electro Optical has a hard
time tracking some of these objects,
especially the ones around the
Langley Air Force Base.
I've spoken to the pilots that
have responded to some of those incidences,
government pilots, you know,
using modern sensors and are unable
to acquire locks.
None of this is necessarily
magic, right?
You could imagine an
autonomous system that is using passive
sensor systems to either
navigate or to conduct its mission.
You could imagine, you Know,
some pretty sophisticated radar shielding
perhaps around the propellers.
Right, but still that's going
to be a problem.
But IR too is a bit tricky.
It's pretty hard, hard to
shield IR energy, especially considering
these objects seem to be
coming from over the ocean, flying
inland, you know, over boats
for hundreds of yards, operating
for an hour, hour and a half
and then flying back out.
You would expect some pretty
heavy heat generation as part of
that process, but they don't
seem to have significant IR expenditure.
So these are some of the
signal management, you know, problems.
Then you got just the pure
numbers and the low altitudes and
the in some case swarming
behaviors that folks are seeing,
you know, with sudden turns.
So I don't have an answer to
what they are.
But we, you know, many of
what's been reported news or just
generally shared, you know,
often seem to be misidentifications.
But there certainly is this,
you know, weird core to it that is
also repeatable over the past
few years.
And so I think looking to this
year, I think it's interesting to
see what's going to happen.
Right.
Is it going, is the trend
going to continue or, or what Just
kind.
Of your professional, I mean,
your expertise in this, would you
say?
Would you think they're man
made or do you think that there,
there's a possibility that it
could be something else?
So, you know, my organization,
Americans for Safe Aerospace, you
know, approaches this from the
angle that we don't have enough information
to make an assessment of what
they are or where they're from.
What we do assume, based off
the reports that we've seen, is that,
you know, very reliable
witnesses are being truthful when
they observe and report to us
that they are observing objects that
are exceeding capabilities of
the known state of the art.
And that is in various ways,
kinematics to signal management and
other things.
Point of origin.
Right.
I mean, how many objects do we
have in our inventory that can hover
in space, not orbit, but hover
in space at a fixed location and
then drop down, you know, next
to an aircraft?
Right.
I'm not aware of any.
Right.
So, you know, there's patterns
and behaviors that are inconsistent
with the known state of the
art outside of just how fast it goes
or things of that nature.
So, you know, we're very
confident that, you know, what is
being witnessed does represent
capability beyond state of the art,
not just tricks of the eyes or
illusions based off of the, you know,
large number of consistent
reports from across, you know, sensors
and individuals and everything else.
Now what that means, we don't know.
And I have some reasons why I
don't think that is China or foreign
military in entirety.
I do certainly think they take
advantage of these opportunities,
these confused states, in
order to launch assets to take advantage
of the situation.
But I don't think they're the
primary instigator here.
What would be.
What would be better?
Would it be better if it was
another country, like we found out,
or to be better if it was some
extraterrestrial thing?
Like one.
One way you look at it, it's
like, all right, well, now we know
for sure that we are so far
behind on certain technologies, but
the other one's like, it's
otherworldly or you don't know how
to react to anything like that.
Yeah, I mean, neither are very good.
And ultimately, it really
doesn't matter because we have to
respond the same way.
Right.
We can't make an assumption if
we don't have enough information
that, you know, it's extraterrestrial.
When the threat vector is just
as, you know, relevant, timely.
If it is China doing it.
Right, what's important is we
have answers and that we're not just
dismissing this information.
There's reports because, you
know, we all grew up in a culture
where, you know, this topic
was considered fantasy or that we've
always had the technological lead.
So how dare another nation
potentially, you know, be able to
do something we're not aware of?
Either one's a threat and that
we need to pay attention to instead
of letting our preconceived
notions dictate our response?
Yeah, absolutely.
Which, like you said, none of
them are great options, and neither
one of them are good.
When you look back, I'm just
going to say UFOs just because that's
kind of like what I was always
just told to think of what a lot
of unidentified flying objects are.
Right.
And I think they're extraterrestrial.
When I think of UFOs, that's
what I think.
I think of the UFOs from
Aliens and Independence Day, and
so be it.
But when they come back and I.
I don't remember the exact kind of
story that I read, but it was.
Majority of the UFO sightings
back in the day were kind of super
intelligent.
Not super intelligent, were
highly classified air Force or U.S.
military kind of ships that
were flying out there.
Is there the chance that this
is something that's just like super
high up in the military and
that we're just kind of doing some
testing and it's just.
It's just part of the program testing.
That they're doing, I
absolutely think that it does account
for some portion of what's
reported, no doubt about it.
But some of the other
descriptions, reports that again
are consistent across not only
multiple people, but often multiple
decades, makes it a little
hard to imagine that we've kept a
singular technology since the
40s or 50s or 60s that hasn't evolved
physically in any manner.
Right, so for example, the Tic Tac.
Right.
That David Fraver saw, you
know, there's Tic Tac reports going
back to the 60s and 70s.
So is that our own technology
that's been in the exact same form
factor for, you know, 70 years
or so, or is there something else?
Right, so, and I, I don't
know, I'm not suggesting one or the
other, but you know, as I
understand the rapid development
of advanced military
technology, you know, we don't have
many designs that have
remained exactly the same for 60,
70 years outward appearances.
You know, and another thing is
that, you know, it's a pretty big
deal to like accidentally show
someone a SAP program or classified
technology.
It's not just like, oops, well
we launched it at the wrong time.
I guess we'll have have to
correct that.
Like you're breaking the law.
Right.
Like if you took these
technologies as some people have
supposed and tested them
against us in the, you know, off
the coast of Virginia, like,
oh, it was just a test.
Like it's just as illegal for
them to do that and expose me that
technology as if it would be
if they handed me a classified binder
with the details of the program.
Right, okay.
It's going to require NDAs and
debriefs and all this read ins and
all this stuff.
There are processes for it.
So to think they're just kind
of willy nilly testing stuff, like
super secret stuff to see how
we act is blatantly illegal and you
know, illogical thinking.
And there are specific
locations where we have to be able
to test, you know, these types
of capabilities and that's what we
use them for.
So yes, certainly part of the
smaller picture, but if you look
at the scope of the problem in
entirety, it just doesn't make sense.
Especially and we haven't even
talked about, you know, the international
nature of some of these sightings.
Yeah, that's going to be one
of my next questions.
Going to be is this something
that is just specific to the United
States or has this been kind
of all over?
Yeah, all over.
You know, you've heard my
description of the cube off the coast
Virginia beach, you know, I
have very similar descriptions in
the South China Sea of very
similar objects and elsewhere in
the world.
So this very much does seem to
be a global issue.
And, you know, it wasn't just
New Jersey that saw an up.
Uptick in sightings.
It wasn't just the United
States during that period.
But, you know, there were
reports globally increasing during
that time period as well.
What that means, I don't know.
But.
But we're off.
We're a bit myopic in thinking
that this is only happening here
certain times because we don't
always have access to that broader
news ecosystem because we're
just not looking there.
Yeah, no, I mean, as Americans.
Right.
We seem to just focus on
what's happening to us and what's
happening in our airspace or
technically the city you live in,
whether it be small or big.
But is there any kind of what
they're flying over?
Is anything that's consistent,
or is it just.
Just all over the place?
Like, is it specifically
military bases they're going over,
or is there anything kind of.
That can bring kind of a
conclusion of what they're looking
for, of what the.
The reason is that they're in
the air?
The data set that we have, I
would say that's relatively inconclusive
because of the relatively
small amount of reports over what
could potentially be and the
type of people that we speak to.
Right.
So we do speak to some
veterans who are in unique areas
that indicate that these are
likely attracted to uap, but we only
have a few of those within our database.
We have a lot of pilot reports.
So, you know, for some reason,
these seem to, you know, operate
around certain aircraft.
But it's hard to say whether
that's a trend or whether that's
just, you know, the result of
our small data set and who we're
talking to.
If I expand outside the data
set that we have and look historically
across other data sets,
deaths, then it's very clear that
these things do have an
attraction to what we consider just
high technology.
So whether that's nuclear
weapons, nuclear propulsion, new
capabilities being launched by
military, that always seems to bring
forward additional attention.
Even transportation of nuclear
waste, building of new facilities,
all seem to garner attention.
Is there like a time like we
don't hear about it?
I mean, we say we.
I personally have not heard
about it recently.
Is there just like a time
frame where it's.
Is it sporadic, is it random,
or have you been able to come up
with some kind of like,
consistent time that the.
The sightings are Happening.
There's been, well, I've told
you about the trend that's recently
occurred the past few years in
the Langley, New Jersey area.
Historically there's been some
studies done that kind of show a
bit of a cycle, you know, up
and down cycle of number of reports.
There's also increased reports
around the period time of the construction
of various nuclear facilities
in the United States, I think back
in the the 40s and 50s or so.
But it does seem to be a bit cyclic.
I guess that's as far as I can
say at the moment.
But honestly it, there's a dirt.
The problem is that you don't
have consistent data.
Right.
It's always kind of been suppressed.
So you have to make, you know,
some statements about what you know.
But you know, if we can bring
in and expand more reports, you know,
that's where we're going to be
able to be incredibly effective.
And you know, my organization,
American Safe Aerospace, you know,
we've received over 850
reports, many from pilots and veterans.
And we've been taking those
reports to organizations such as
Senate Armed Service
Committee, Senate Select Committee,
Intelligence, various members
in the House and the Senate.
We have a working relationship
with the FBI who's built a working
group to investigate this issue.
And with our witnesses
permission, we've brought them in
and they've shared their
experiences with these individuals
and, and it's caused a great
deal of momentum and effort, you
know, within these
organizations in order to better
undercover what's happening.
And I, you know, if I may, you
know, I would encourage your listeners
to go to safe aerospace.org
and you can, you can report yourself.
We screen every report.
We have both a former witness
and army intelligence officer Cason,
who helps screen those with me.
And we reach out to
individuals to help help investigate,
process their case.
And we have a number of
opportunities where, you know, you
can be very impactful with
what you're sharing, you know, from
D.C. to law enforcement and
the scientific community.
So I would make that shout out
there for, for folks to join us there.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
And one of the last questions
I have kind of on this because I
don't want to take up too much
more your time, but when you present
this information to the people
that need to hear this, what is the
response?
Is the response just kind of
like oh yeah, yeah, like they kind
of like just, just passing it
off like oh, it's nothing, it's nothing.
Are they like truly concerned
about what's going on?
I'd say about half of the
People, you know, representatives,
whatnot, have, are visibly
relieved that they have a reasonable
way of engaging this topic
through a national security and aviation
lens and helping pilots lend.
Because, you know, I think the
average person is probably much more
interested in this topic than
people believe.
You know, there has been this
big taboo and stigma around it.
But when I engage with people
and I'm just upfront and talk about
it and bring it up, especially
with pilots, it's incredible how
many people have had their own
anomalous experience, whether in
the cockpit or elsewhere.
I mean, for me, it's almost
half the people I talk to are willing
to be like, well, yeah,
actually, you know, X, Y or Z happened.
And so, you know, when I
engage members, they're just like
everyone else.
And some of them, I've been
waiting for an excuse to talk about
this.
Others are maybe dismissive,
but they can't ignore, you know,
dozens of incidents from, you
know, some of their best trained
pilots.
They're saying, hey, you know,
you put me in this position to use
these tools and this training.
And now I'm reporting what I found.
Don't ignore me.
Are you able to talk about any
of the reports that you have that
are maybe different or kind of
stick out, just not either worrisome
or just like impressive data
that you've gotten from any witness
reports?
Oh, gosh.
Oh, I mean, there's so many.
But, you know, aviation
specific, you know, one that always
kind of chills my bones is a
737, I believe it was, you know,
two air crew taking off out of
airport, climbing about 10 to 12,000ft,
about 30 miles north of the
airfield or so northeast.
See a, a small object on the
horizon, essentially right off their
nose, kind of turns back,
looks up objects closer, turns back
again.
Then next thing you know,
they're both watching this black
triangle about 200 yards on
the side fly directly over the aircraft.
Within 500ft, purple lights at
the apexes of the triangle, or excuse
me, red lights, I believe they
were, with like a purple one in the
middle.
Just absolutely massive.
Within 500ft of fully loaded,
you know, commercial 737 carrying
passengers.
Pilots talked, AC, ATC, nothing.
There was no, there was no
turbulence from the, the, the near
miss.
There was no indications on
any of their proximity warnings.
So yes, these, these two
pilots, you know, they have this,
you know, within 500 foot pass
with this very large triangle 200ft
to a side.
And as they're, you know,
trying to make sense of this in the
cockpit through the rest of
their Flight kind of going down the
decision tree of what
logically this could be at the end,
you know, the pilots end up
self administering a drug test to
themselves when they got out,
just thinking, like, what, how else
could we be possibly seeing
what we just saw?
You know, of course, you know,
the test was negative, but, but that's,
you know, that's the situation
that some pilots are finding themselves
where, you know, drug testing
themselves is the best potential
solution to explain, you know,
what they're seeing in the sky.
So obviously not a sustainable position.
And you know, our, our goal,
Mercury Aerospace, is essentially
just to educate enough so that
people understand that if they do
see something like this, it's
not the first time they've ever tried
to fit this into the world view.
And they realize they're not
the only people that have had these
types of experiences.
And we're looking to share our
reports and our experiences that
our witness have provided us
on our website and to our community
here in the near future.
So that, you know, as, as
we've learned that this, this isn't
a rare experience necessarily.
And you know, there's a lot of
commonalities between what people
have seen.
If someone needs to report
anything, you know, where would they
go?
What's a website to do?
And kind of what's the process?
Yeah, so right now there's
really no formal guidance within
the aviation world.
The Federal Aviation
Regulations ESS recommend that you
contact local law enforcement,
whatever that means there is.
There are organizations such
as safeaerospace.org where we collect
reports and then we make them
actionable so that we can actually
provide protections to pilots
and provide formal reporting systems
for this.
In the meantime, we collect
the reports to assure that they get
the decision makers so that
they can formally petition for those
changes.
We also have legislation that
we've introduced last year and are
still working to have passed
called the Safe Airspace for Americans
Act.
And this legislation would
require the FAA and NASA to modify
the aviation safety reporting
system to be able to accept these
types of reports as part of
that ecosystem, as well as protect
pilots who do report it, who
feel they may have, have, you know,
ramifications from their
employer for doing so, which a high
number of pilots do report to
us as well.
Yeah.
What's the website?
Safe Aerospace.org perfect.
So if you see anything weird,
you know where to go and you can
report it.
And you might get a phone call
from Ryan himself, like, yo, dude,
what happened?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I've seen, I, I've seen two,
like, weird things.
One was the orb I was telling
you about when we're coming into
LaGuardia earlier, earlier
this year.
And then one was another.
I was flying in PC12, 2 o'
clock in the morning, deep in Arizona,
kind of sim, kind of close to,
like, the White Sands area.
So I just assumed it was
something like that, but something
I've never seen fly so fast.
A couple thousand feet above
me at like 30,000ft, which is wild.
And then one time over the
Northeast, there was a controller
like, hey, can you.
You guys see any of the
lights, like, up at 80,000ft or like
60,000ft?
It's like, I have a signature
on radar.
It's up high.
And everyone's like, yeah, we
see something.
And they're like, oh, okay,
don't know what to do now, but we
see it.
So, yeah, that was all
interesting, too.
So, yeah, you see where to go.
You know where to go now to
report anything, if you see that's
weird.
But, Ryan, I appreciate you
coming on the podcast.
I do have one quick question
that's away from kind of what this
is, but it has to do with autonomy.
What do you think?
And you can answer it very briefly.
We don't have to get into a
discussion about it, but a lot of
pilots are worried about AI
coming into aviation, coming into
121World.
As someone that works with
autonomy, that sees kind of the potential
for autonomy, what do you
think the risk is for pilots and
with AI and with autonomous aircraft?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And, you know, something I've
thought a lot about, I'd say the
short answer is, you know, I'd
be more worried for the cargo guys
than the passenger guys.
Yeah, it's good to know.
I would agree.
Why fly 120?
I fly for the passenger, so I
hope that.
But, Ryan, I appreciate it, man.
Thanks so much for coming on
the podcast.
It's been a lot of fun.
It was my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
AV Nation, that's a wrap on
today's podcast.
Thank you so much for listening.
Like I said, go check out safe
aerospace.org you can report your
UAP.
If you've seen something
crazy, send it to them.
And they will.
They'll debrief with you and
they'll figure out what's going on.
But AV Nation, hope you're
having a great day.
Remember Spotify, leave a
review itunes, leave a review and
sign up for YouTube.
I mean, who doesn't want to
watch a YouTube podcast of aviation?
Especially with Ryan talking
about UAP.
It's gold it's great content.
Go check it out, send it to
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Maybe they'll become a pilot.
You never know.
All right Avia Nation, hope
you're having a great day as always,
happy flying.
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