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When someone thinks about mentoring, they think about the child. They think about the benefit they’re receiving of having somebody guide them and show them the way. They think about the growth of the child and the potential they have. They may even think about the experiences the mentee may have. Rarely, however, do they think about the relationship from the perspective of the mentor. They may acknowledge the mentor’s presence and intentionality, but they don’t typically think about the humility and sacrifice the mentor has had in order to continue to show up. At Forerunner Mentoring, the core value of the organization is “Relationships Change Lives”. It’s the idea that by investing in kids, their lives are forever being changed. But that investment goes both ways. The mentor benefits just as much from the relationship as the mentee does. Maxwell Owen, one of Forerunner’s one-on-one volunteer mentors (not a coach in the after school mentoring program) joins Josh this week on his summer takeover series to talk about spontaneity in mentoring, modeling humility, the benefits he’s seen in himself from mentoring, and why he chooses to volunteer as a mentor.
Purchase the You Can Mentor book:
You Can Mentor: How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses
youcanmentor.com
Purchase the You Can Mentor book:
You Can Mentor: How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses
youcanmentor.com
Creators & Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest in the lives of others. You can mentor.
Speaker 2:Hey, mentors. Just a reminder about the You Can Mentor book. It's titled You Can Mentor, How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses. The whole point of this book is to equip and encourage mentors with new tools and ideas on how to make the most of their mentor mentee relationship. If you're a mentor, hey, go pick it up.
Speaker 2:And if you're a mentoring organization, pick some up for all of your mentors. If you would like to order mass copies, like more than 20, send an email to me, zach@youcanmentor.com, and we will get you guys a special price. But go and pick up that book. It's good. You can mentor.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast. My name is Joshua Manning, and you have been listening to my voice for the last 7, 8 weeks. I don't how long. But as you know, I've been doing a why I mentor series. I've been interviewing the coaches at 4 Runner.
Speaker 3:Just getting their why because logistically, it doesn't make any sense for us to be mentoring at least from a job standpoint. Right? We don't get paid and, you know, we don't make a lot of money doing it. It's a part time job, and so there's gotta be some other reason why. So we've had you know, we kicked it off with coach Taj.
Speaker 3:We had coach Bailey, coach Caitlin, just all of the coaches there. We've got one more coming up next week. Coach JT is is gonna be next week. And let me tell you guys, that is an episode you are not gonna wanna miss. It's super long.
Speaker 3:We talked for, like, an hour and a half or something like that. But it was it was just it wasn't planned. God just moved in that conversation. It was definitely it is definitely one you're gonna wanna wanna check out. But this week, we have a very special guest because, well, he's not one of our coaches.
Speaker 3:We have Maxwell Owen in the house today. Max, how are you doing?
Speaker 4:I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
Speaker 3:Is it Max or Maxwell?
Speaker 4:It's a good question. So it's actually a funny story. So I changed it to Maxwell halfway through college. And I say I changed it, but it's actually my real middle name. So my full name is Jordan Maxwell Owen.
Speaker 4:Okay. And Maxwell, I believe at the time, had a more professional professional tone to it because I wanted to be a professional artist and a singer.
Speaker 3:So Okay.
Speaker 4:Maxwell Owen sound better than Max Owen that sounds a little bit more, you know, dis disjunct or distinct. But, anyway, but what was crazy is that it happened the same time that I started following Jesus, but it was not an intentional thing where I was like, I need to change my name just like, you know, Paul or Saul to Paul. It was it was aligned in a way that it came naturally, but Maxwell means rivers, and so does Jordan. So both my names, unintentionally, that my parents named me, had rivers involved, and Maxwell was not. So when I changed it, I looked back, you know, years later, and I was like, woah.
Speaker 4:Like, you know, God is actually literally changing my name as I'm learning to to follow him. So it's really cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that still doesn't answer the question. Do you prefer going by Max or Maxwell?
Speaker 4:Yeah. If I prefer either. So if you call me Max, that's great because I've I'm used to hearing it for 20 plus years. Maxwell is what I go by now for anybody that I introduce myself to.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. Gotcha.
Speaker 4:So in work situations, in life, I will always introduce myself as Maxwell.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. What does your wife call you?
Speaker 4:She calls me Max.
Speaker 3:She calls you Max? Mhmm.
Speaker 5:If
Speaker 3:she uses your babe? Because I'm sure you
Speaker 5:guys have tons of pet names.
Speaker 4:Babe is usually the the name around the house.
Speaker 3:Babe. Okay.
Speaker 4:Babe. Anyway Anyways. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Anyway, Maxwell is here. He is not one of our coaches, but he is involved at forerunner. He is one of our 1 on 1 mentors. So if you don't know anything about forerunner, first, you need to go listen to, like, the last a 189 or a190 episodes because that's all about forerunner, basically. But forerunner is a mentoring organization in Lake Highlands, which is a community within the Dallas Metroplex.
Speaker 3:It's not an official city. It's like their addresses are Dallas, but it's a it's a neighborhood. It's a community inside Dallas. And Forerunner's mission is to help boys achieve their potential and become men of God. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So we do that practically by identifying and getting into our program boys who don't have father figures. And we're trying to, like, end the cycle of fatherlessness by teaching these boys how to be men of God, how to be fathers, husbands, and leaders
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That kind of thing. We do that through a number of programs. We do that through the after school mentoring program where we run, like, an after school program with the coaches. That's who's been on the podcast, and that's where I work as a site lead. And the other arm of that is we do we match boys specific boys who would benefit from it, match them up with 1 on 1 mentors.
Speaker 3:And those are all volunteers in the community. We have Maxwell's 1. We have a bunch of others just in our program matched up. The junior high side, I think we have 5 or 6 mentors. I have no idea how many k three six has.
Speaker 3:I know they have more than us, but that's just because they have, like, 3 times as many kids and just more opportunities for those matches to occur. Mhmm. But I wanted to get Maxwell on on the podcast as part of the series because, well, he doesn't get paid anything. So there's there's absolutely gotta be a reason why for him. And we just we had been talking before we hit record on this on this episode about just all kinds of things, like the beauty of conversations and the spontaneity of worship.
Speaker 3:And so I just kinda started jumping into the episode because I wanted to get all of that back. You know, I wanted to get that content into the episode. So, yeah, Maxwell, why don't you just reiterate really fast what we were talking about? We we we were talking about, like, the beauty of true spontaneous worship.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. So so I've been at Antioch Dallas and serving on the worship team for I wanna say it's, like, 6 years now, since 2018. So I guess that's 5, if my math is correct. And, yeah, it's just been amazing because I I grew up in a very rigid music lifestyle.
Speaker 4:Like, my parents were musicians, and they're very encouraging. But in a way, you know, because I studied classical music, it was very rules based. Like, you know, you practice, you do this, you do that, and you get better. And then you have teachers that will tell you right and wrong, and, you know, there's one way usually to sing the right notes on a page. And then there's not a lot of creativity that comes at an early age when you're learning the basics.
Speaker 4:But all that to say, long story short, when I joined and started singing in worship and on worship team, it was very very scary for me as a classical musician because jumping into an art form that is not rigid and it's not, you know, like we were just talking about spontaneity. You know, we can teach in jazz, you know, the the essence of spontaneity, but it still fits in a box. It still fits in, you know, hey. You have these notes to choose from. You can do what you want, but, like, this is kinda what you have to do.
Speaker 4:Otherwise, it doesn't make sense in the grand scheme. But in worship, it is literally like you are almost getting lost in in a realm of spiritual, you know, singing with one another, with collaborating with the band, and with the strings, and with the percussion, and everything together that is almost like a succinct thing that happens at the same time that is really impactful and special when it happens in true spontaneity form. Because we were talking earlier how you can plan spontaneity, which is great in a sense because you're you're making room to kinda see how the spirit leads. But what I would say, like, spontaneity, spontaneity, like, times 2 is when you don't plan spontaneity and it happens spontaneously Yeah. It's really special because you're like, wow.
Speaker 4:Like, there's something greater than our organization as humans to see this come together and to and it works in, like, a crazy way because it's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3:You know?
Speaker 4:It's the Holy Spirit moving in our voices, like, creating new songs in our hands when we're playing guitar and our you know, on the piano and just, like, seeing where it leads. It's like a it's a collaborative motion and a movement that you can't control, and that's, I think, kind of the point of it is, like, you're sitting in that place, and you could be there for hours and not know it Mhmm. Because it is it's real, and it's authentic, and it and it's cool. Just seeing the output and seeing the impact, not only in our team, but in, you know, the the community, the congregation as well, giving that freedom to to live in that spontaneity.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For real. I like, I've noticed that too. Either if I'm serving in the back, running sound, running lights, whatever, or even better if I'm on stage playing because I serve when I'm when I'm not in the booth, which is very rare. But, you know, I serve I play keys on our stage Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And and I'm part of the worship band. And even that even that story, like, how I got plugged into being able to do that was spontaneous. I don't know if you know that story.
Speaker 4:No. I don't.
Speaker 3:But it was last I think it was last October. So October of 2022. Mhmm. We we had come in and our I think it was our keys player had called in sick. Our others our our other keys players weren't available.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I think our bass guitarist or I think it was our I don't remember. Yeah. I think our base guitarist had called in sick as well. So one of our other bass guitarist came in and our like, the whole plan for the day that they had been talking about it with me. You know, as technical director, I'm part of my job is to, like, know these things so that we can roll with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that, like, Noah Thatcher, our our worship leader, and the bass guitarist, who was our music director, were just like, we're just gonna do this. We're gonna do this. We'll make it work. And I'm like, you guys know I play piano. Right?
Speaker 3:And they're like, no. I was like, I can just jump on and and play piano.
Speaker 4:Man of many talents.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And they're like, I mean, we can give it a shot. They're like, we can run a song. Worst case scenario is it's like, okay. No.
Speaker 3:It's not gonna work, and we just pivot again. No big deal. Right? I mean, like, it's 8 o'clock in the morn yeah. It's like it's 7 o'clock in the morning for a 10 AM service.
Speaker 3:It's, like, there's plenty of time to adapt and pivot.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And so that's what we did is we ran the first song. It was Mike King Forever. Or no. Maybe it was. I think it was Mike King Forever.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And keep
Speaker 3:in mind, like, I had not been practicing these at home, anticipating, like, going in and playing. Yeah. This was a, like, last minute, like, guys, I play piano. I can I can fill in? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And we ran the first song. It was obviously rusty because I hadn't pulled I hadn't practiced, but, you know, the potential was there. And we finished the song, and they're just like You're hired? Basically, they're like, alright.
Speaker 3:Let's keep going. And I was like, sorry, Booth. You're on your own today.
Speaker 5:Oh, man.
Speaker 3:Which fortunately A different spontaneity. Yeah. It was a different kind of spontaneity. But fortunately, my serve team that was scheduled that week was strong, and they knew what they were doing, and they could handle it without me back there. Right?
Speaker 3:Like, I wasn't really planning on needing to do very much because I they were a team that I knew could do that. And that day, like, that was that was my first day. And, like, I remember we got off the stage after the worship set in service, right, you know, for the debrief. And I walked back, and everybody was, like, applauding. And I was just I literally turned in.
Speaker 3:I was like, consider that my audition. And so he and I had more conversations about what it would look like for me to play more regularly because that was something that I had realized I really needed in my life as part of my spiritual walk was to play on a worship band because I had started on a worship band. I started playing on worship teams when I was 16.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And then just since moving to Texas, like, I hadn't really been doing it, especially having had left the church before moving to Texas. Like, I hadn't done it in a really long time. Mhmm. And it was, you know, just, like, 2 or 3 weeks. It was funny.
Speaker 3:2 or 3 weeks prior to that event, I had texted Noah. I was like, hey. Do you think we can get, you know, a a band together just to come hang out at the church and jam on, like, a Friday night or something? Because I was like I was like, I really need to play in a band again. Like, I I have not done this in a really long time.
Speaker 3:I miss it. Like, I need to play in a band again. He's like, yeah. Let's let's talk. Let's see if we can make that work.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And then this whole thing happens. And later that day, I text him. I was like, when I said I needed to play in a band again, I didn't mean in front of a 150 people. Oh my.
Speaker 4:That's great then.
Speaker 3:But it was spontaneous. And, you know, that's that's just led to all kinds of really cool experiences, especially with, like, true spontaneous worship of, you know, where we go through the set and then maybe the the host for the day is like, let's go back into this thing because, you know, I felt this word. Yep. And so the music director gets on the mic, and then he's like, hey, guys. Here's the plan that we didn't have planned.
Speaker 3:We're just making this up as we go. He's like, we're gonna start small. We're gonna go here kind of thing. And he's, like, calling the transitions as they're happening, and we're just running with it because we're all lost in in the music and the spirit. And, you know, so there's that kind of spontaneity.
Speaker 3:And there's been other kinds of spontaneity that I've witnessed in our church, which has just been absolutely gorgeous, has been the times where we end up doing a mash up. Mhmm. Right? Because the spirit is leading. And the the 2 that come to mind, one is more recent.
Speaker 3:Every the the one that isn't more recent is every Christmas, one of the songs that we do is O Holy Night, but we mash it up with Wellspring by Leavitt. And
Speaker 4:So good.
Speaker 3:Anymore, it's now an official part of our our set list where it's planned and that kind of thing, and it's been polished and and figured you know, we figured it out. But that came out of spontaneity. That came out of the band rehearsing in the moment 3 or 4 years ago. And they just, like I I think it was during rehearsal, and one of the singers just started singing it, and the whole band just followed. They just ran with it.
Speaker 3:Right? And so now it's part of that. And we've so we have that mash up. And then even more recently, this was like 3 weeks ago, Maxwell, you were I think you were the worship leader this week. It was our bass
Speaker 4:guitarist last
Speaker 3:Sunday serving. Yep. And because he was moving to Tennessee, which we're all very sad about
Speaker 4:Very much so.
Speaker 3:Very, very sad about.
Speaker 4:Bass player and MD.
Speaker 3:Bass player and MD. And he was actually one of our our not elders. I'm blanking on the term that we use. Overseer.
Speaker 4:Overseer. Yep. You're right.
Speaker 3:He he was also actually one of our overseers. And so he he just moved to Tennessee because of work, and his favorite song from his 10 or 10 plus years of serving was The Stand by Hillsong United. So we were doing that as kind of a throwback for him in that set list. And then one of our singers during our rehearsal that morning was just like, what if we go into the bridge of came to my rescue? And she didn't even say that like that.
Speaker 3:She's like, there's this this stanza that I I'm hearing within the music. Yeah. And she's like, in my life, be lifted high. And I was like, oh, I know that song. And everybody was like, oh, I know that song.
Speaker 3:What is it? And then we ran it 1 or 2 times, and that became part of the song for the set. And both of those were just have just been really, really sweet. And I think, one, it's a testimony to just the skill level of our band to be able to respond to spontaneity that way, where
Speaker 4:we're just like Yeah.
Speaker 3:They they have the skill to be able to do that or to at least follow the people in the band who can do that. Or and 2, that there's that willingness there to be spontaneous.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's important. Yeah. That's that's a great point because I remember there's definitely times, depending on the team, and it's not like, you know, a bad thing necessarily, but where we didn't feel succinct together as a team. And and that's when spontaneity or spontaneity is actually pretty scary because, you know, you have
Speaker 3:can we stay together? Yeah.
Speaker 4:You have so many different versions of it. You're like, because that's the thing. You you don't realize you're looking at it through a lens, you know, because spontaneity is a buzzword for the church or for a lot of people in within church, like, whether or what background you come from. That can mean a lot of different things. And and, yeah, if you don't have that same vision or that same even practice in a way
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Together as a team, then it could turn into something that it's not, which is, like spontaneity for a different reason or for more of a selfish reason, like, just to be cool or just because that's what, you know, the church sing the church scene is doing nowadays or what recording is is doing, and it's like, you know, it's it's dangerous waters when you start
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Looking into that, you know, some of the darker sides of it, and it turns into some scary stuff. But all that to say is, yeah, we I feel like we have gotten to that point as our team now where we are more comfortable stepping out, living in that discomfort because it's obedience. And I I believe that's what a lot of obedience is is is discomfort because it's going against what your natural inclination is a lot of time. But so it's the same for worship too. Right?
Speaker 4:You know? You're uncomfortable, but you're like, okay. Now that I'm uncomfortable, I'm I'm out of control, which it sounds bad as a human, but with the Holy Spirit, that's what you need. Like, you have to be out of control because if you don't let him control it, then you're you're holding on to your own sense, your your own desire, and that's when spontaneous gets in a in a different sense, in a in a controlled sense and not in a loose letting go.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's it's one of those things where it's like, I think it works for us because we come to the table with a level of humility. Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We none of us go up on that stage thinking that it's about us. Right? In fact, we very actively pray against that and that we like, every morning or every week, every morning, we circle up. Before we before we even start playing anything, we circle up and we cast vision for the service, for the worship set, and we pray into, God, be here. Right?
Speaker 3:Be here. Guide our hands. Be like, pour out through us. We're just your vessels. Right?
Speaker 3:We start out of this posture of humility, And I think that's what allows for that spontaneity to flourish. Whereas, you're right, I think once, you know, once there becomes a little bit of pride in that in that equation
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:It becomes about you. It becomes about, oh, look at me and all of these cool, really like, really cool little things that I can do.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And that gets really dangerous really fast.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think that's something that our team does really, really well is ex or, like, acting out of that humility. And I think that's something that we can learn to do as mentors as well. Mhmm. One is just, like, worshiping and learning to worship spontaneously. Right?
Speaker 3:I think I think there's confusion in society today or even just the the big C church. I think there's confusion about what true worship looks like. Right? You know, we talk about the importance in mentoring of, like, especially Christian mentoring like Forerunner is. You know, we talk about the importance of being in the word and doing a daily quiet time and practicing a Sabbath and practicing all of these spiritual rhythms
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So that, you know, you're filled up so that you can pour into your mentee and things like that. But I think the one thing that we don't talk about is worship. And I think that's something that, at least I've seen in the junior or in the in the after school program, is lacking for these students. Right? They my 1st year in particular, like, our kids were not interested in worship at all.
Speaker 3:Like, I saw we took them down to a summer camp. That was my first exposure to these kids. Like, that was the first time I met them. We took them down to a summer camp, which was more of the bible camp. It was Camp Eagle in San Antonio, if you guys know where that is.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But they do church twice a day. Right? They do the morning session, the evening session, and that includes worship. And everybody else was there that was there. You know, it was mostly youth groups, and they were engaged in this worship.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, this was not new to them. And my kids or our group, my kids were just sitting there, like, standing there going, what the heck? Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 3:Like, what what do I do? I don't know these songs. Yeah. These kids are jumping up and down and screaming and doing all kinds of weird things. Like, they were very uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:Right? And I noticed that kind of pattern continuing throughout program that year as we did church on a weekly basis. Right? And so this past year, what we started doing is before we got into worship, we started teaching them like, it it became kind of the question of the week, and we did this the same question for 4 or 5 months until Darius was like, okay. Like We beat it to death.
Speaker 3:We've we've kicked this dead horse enough. Like, we need to change up the question. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But the the question that we talked about for a long time was what is worship? Right? And it was like, you know, it it started you know, I was like, okay, guys. What is worship? And then I gave them, like, the the not the dictionary definition because I didn't go copy it out of the dictionary, but I gave them a definition, a very cognitive academic definition of worship.
Speaker 3:And I forget exactly what it was, but it was something along the lines of reverent I don't I don't I don't know. I don't remember what it was. I could go look it up. But, you know, I I gave them a very academic definition. And then I turned this into a part 2 of, like, how do we worship?
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:Right? And a part of this came out of, like, this response to when we sing the song the worship song as part of our church service, they were not interested, and so they were misbehaving because they were uncomfortable and this, that, and the other thing. So part of this was, like, expectations kinda got slid into that conversation at that moment. But it was a lot of, like, how do we worship? What are practical ways in which we worship?
Speaker 3:What does that look like? Yeah. And it wasn't just you can sing the song. You know, I was we we taught them worship can be prayer. It can be singing the song.
Speaker 3:It can be drawing a picture. It can be sitting still. It can be your hands are up. It can be laying you know, leaning back with your eyes closed and just resting in his presence. It can be this, that, and the other thing.
Speaker 3:We gave them, like, 8 or 9 different options they could do. And then, you know, we followed it up with, okay, what is worship not? And then we're that's where we slid in the expectations. It's not talking to your neighbor. It's not walking around.
Speaker 3:It's not doing this and the other thing. But, you know, we we did that on a weekly basis over and over and over again until again, until Darius was like, we've we've kicked this horse enough. And so we switched it up. I actually ended up asking them, like, what questions do you have about God? And, like, write it down on a piece of paper, and I kept those.
Speaker 3:And I used those as, like, our question of the week for the rest of the year.
Speaker 4:Nice.
Speaker 3:Which there were some really good questions Yeah. That I had to go, like, research and think about. But, you know, we what ended up happening is we saw I we saw the shift. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 3:We saw the shift from disengaged to students who truly understood what worship was and were responding to it. And I have videos on my phone of our students leading each other into actual, true, authentic Wow. Worship Let's
Speaker 4:go good.
Speaker 3:And being like, guys, let's all stand up. Let's join arms. Let's sing this song. Let's you know, it it's those kinds of things, and it was so cool. So all of that is to say, circling back around to the main idea that I had originally, it's like we don't teach our our mentor mentees about worship.
Speaker 3:We teach them all of the other spiritual disciplines.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But we don't teach them about worship. And what it's it's like what can we do to, 1, start to teach them about worship, but, 2, then even start to teach them about what spontaneous worship looks like because worship doesn't have to be going to church. Yeah.
Speaker 4:You can worship
Speaker 3:in your car. You can worship while you're sweeping the floor. You can worship while you're doing homework.
Speaker 4:Yep. So Yeah. No. That's really good. And it's it's an important question because I think it does not only apply to mentees, but applies to to us right now, to the body, to the church at large.
Speaker 4:And, you know, you look at different countries and you see other people doing work, like, it sounds weird to say, but, like, doing worship better, you know, than we might because this idea of worship has really turned into, like, a once a week thing. But it is so far away from what that is, like, God's intention of worship is. And I've been just reading, and and I love the subject of worship, obviously, because I've been doing it for a while now and and learning about it and realizing, like, hey. You know, this comes from not only, like, a a huge, like, 1000 year background, but, like, these these were Jewish thoughts and ideas before there were Christian ideas and thoughts. So, you know, studying them and understanding what they viewed worship at what they viewed worship as is is very important.
Speaker 4:So, you know, they obvious or not I say obvious, sorry, but they they had the idea of the tabernacle, you know, entering into God's presence and bringing sacrifices because that was the way that you could, you know, cleanse yourself of your sins and and how worship in their eyes was not like we look at it today as like a once a week Sunday deal. It was a lifetime of daily lifestyle. It was yeah. Exactly. It was a lifestyle of of what is my daily walk, what is my second, like, every moment, you know, am I revering the Lord?
Speaker 4:Am I fearing the Lord? Am I abiding? Am I praying? You know, these disciplines, and, like, that is what worship is. So, again, even that concept, that idea, because we it's we're obviously now in a consumeristic culture too where worship is a commodity, worship is a style, you know?
Speaker 4:It's a genre. It's a genre, and and it's it's not. You know? It, like, literally is not supposed to be that way. Worship is a life of commitment to God.
Speaker 4:It is an outpouring and an obedience and a yeah. Like like we said, a daily encounter. And
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:I've been reading Tozier right now, and he is talking about, like, he has a way of saying it in a very convicting way, but a way that he is living out. So I appreciate. And he's saying, like, if you don't worship on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, you're not worshiping on Sunday, you know, because you're choosing and picking, like, a life that is not meant to be lived, which is I'm gonna, you know, choose these days to commit myself and then choose these other days to not. And that reality is very humbling because, you know, we all fall into it whether it be distraction or, you know, work is really busy this week or, you know, I just wanna forget. I just wanna, like, you know, lay down and not think, you know, all these different excuses or all these things that are drawing us away from God's presence, which is meant to be lived out almost all the time, or arguably all the time.
Speaker 4:And so, yeah, just as a worship leader, because, you know, if I show up on Sunday having not thought about, having not prayed about, having not prepared in ways of, like, how I can draw near to the Lord and, like, what he's speaking, then I have no right being up there on stage leading other people because I've done them a disservice because it's it turns into a show. It turns into a Yeah. A performance, and it's and that's not what it is. And then so this isn't meant to be lived out. So, So, yeah, it's a great point, like, bringing that to mentees, like, understanding, hopefully, even at that young age that worship is every day.
Speaker 4:Worship is, you know, how you live your life, like what it says in Romans 12, like, living as a living living and breathing as a sacrifice. Like, that's true and proper worship is, like, that sacrifice to say no to the world, say yes to God in every moment, every decision, and obviously stumbling along the way, but, like, stumbling towards him. Right. And yeah. So it's just it it's humbling because now we get to, as as older men of God, get to show the our younger mentees and those, you know, that we're stewarding that with what it looks like in our own lives and what didn't work and what does work because obviously there's a lot of life that we have or a lot more life
Speaker 5:that we've lived than they have at that point.
Speaker 4:But it's also a very for me that I've realized doing this for a few years now, a very patient process because although you think that you have the answers, it's like you have also have to realize, like, I don't have all the answers. Like, you know, God has all the answers. I don't have all the answers. So it's like I can I can teach him to the best of my ability, and I could hopefully encourage him when he's doing well and and discipline, you know, when he's not, like, in a loving way? But at the end of the day, you know, God is working in his heart, and I have to be confident that however long that takes, it's happening because, you know, the faithfulness to say yes to putting up with the harder harder even months sometimes where it's like, man, we're we're not getting anywhere.
Speaker 4:Like, we're still doing the same thing over and over. Like, the lesson has not sunk in yet. Yeah. But being confident that, like, okay, even if this is a 10, 15, 20 year journey for him, like, I still trust and alert to do that work. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it takes the weight off of me because you always wanna to to strive or you feel like you're responsible, which we are responsible in a lot of ways. But at the end of the day, we have to lay down that responsibility, and I have to do that for myself. I'm not always great at it because I, again, I came from that background of control of, you know, perfectionism, of practice, of you do this, you get results. And Rules. Mentoring doesn't work that way
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, in a lot of ways. And I've learned the hard way in in in what's great because it's it's challenged me in great ways to to let go of that control, but to still be faithful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So how old is your mentee? He's 2nd grade? Yep. 2nd grade.
Speaker 3:So, like, 7, 7, 8, somewhere in there? Yep. Going into 3rd? Yep. Okay.
Speaker 3:So we're talking about a 7 or 8 year old, and you're talking about the same, like, you know, the the harder seasons, the harder months where or whatever where you're like, we're on the same thing. And I can only imagine it's like, in those moments, you almost have to, like, remind yourself, like, he's 7. Right?
Speaker 4:Yep. You
Speaker 3:know, 7 year olds think a very specific way. They like, that's that's the point of growing up is to mature. Right? Like, how you respond to your 2nd grader mentee or 3rd grade mentee in the moment for a discipline conversation is gonna be very different than how I respond to my junior high, 7th and 8th grade students. Right?
Speaker 3:Because, for example, your your mentee isn't really capable of thinking through, like, cause and effect Mhmm. At least in in the immediate sense, right, the the forecasting, the anticipation, the, like, if I do this, this is going to happen. Like, a 7 a 7 year old is not really capable of that. Yeah. At least to the same level that a 14 year old is.
Speaker 3:Right? And so that like, my conversations with my junior high students are a lot different. Right? They're because I know that they're capable of that, it becomes a lot more of that forecasting in my discipline conversations of like, okay, you did this. You become what you practice.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Right? What happens in 4 years when you're 18 and somebody makes you angry
Speaker 5:Yep.
Speaker 3:And you go smack them. What's gonna happen? Yeah. And they're like, I'll probably get in a fight. And I was like, okay.
Speaker 3:And then what? And he's they're like, well, I'll probably go to jail. I'm like, if you're lucky. I'm like, that's best case scenario. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Worst case scenario is not pretty. Yeah. And I don't want that for you. Yeah. I was like, you become what you practice.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:So you need to start practicing now fixing your mind, fixing your attention on living out being a man of God. Mhmm. Living with responsibility, acting with humility. You know, we just talked about humility on our stage. It's like that that is not just us on stage.
Speaker 3:Like, that is how we live. Right? We can we can talk to any of our band members, and they all live life a life of humility. Right? You know, they they are always putting others before themselves.
Speaker 3:And it's that kind of thing. It's like that's what I'm trying to teach my kids. It's it's almost like I almost want to, like, bring them to a Sunday service and be like, just watch. Yeah. Just watch us.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 4:That's so good. Yeah, man. And yeah. And I don't know if we mentioned his name. You know, my mentee's name is Nathan, and I've been mentoring him for about a year now or coming on a year.
Speaker 4:And I've actually been involved I'm kind of, like, you know, leading myself in the question, but I've been involved in, you know, mentoring or I had 4 Runner mentor for about 3 years now. So I started out in your age group, you know, in 7, 8th. I mentored a guy named Jacob who sadly, you know, left the program, you know, about a year into it, which I had to grieve because I was there was a lot of thoughts of, like, you know, what did I do wrong? And and, you know, I had to pray about and and get get some perspective on. So I took a break and then came back because, you know, Stephen Murray reached back out and
Speaker 3:said, hey. You know, we He does that.
Speaker 4:You know? Yeah. He does. He's great.
Speaker 5:That's how
Speaker 3:I am.
Speaker 4:He's a very professional. Yep.
Speaker 3:He reached out.
Speaker 5:He's like, I need you to go.
Speaker 4:Yep. He's awesome. So, yeah, he brought me back, and it was just such a whirlwind of difference. And going from, you know, a 7th grader now to what started at as a 1st grader and and just seeing, yeah, the the mental differences, but also just in a way, like, when I was mentoring Jacob, it was more like a friendship. Kind of not I mean, obviously, I was much older, but Almost like a big brother.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and this is more of like a father son feeling even though I am not a father yet. But in a lot of cool ways, it's it's thrust me into that because I've had to in short amount of times, you know, obviously, I don't experience the full 247
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:As a as a mentor, but
Speaker 3:Or even the 10 hour 10 hours a week that a coach
Speaker 4:is doing. Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely different, but the times that I do get to spend with him have felt you know, or have given me some real world, like, practice on being a father. And thinking, like, you know, as we all grow up and you kinda get past that adolescent, you know, age where you think you know everything, you think you understand the world, and you're right, and then a couple years later
Speaker 3:too, and you're like, oh, wait.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Wait. Actually yeah. And then you grow up a little bit more, and then you realize that every that that was just silly that you thought that way. But all I have to say is at that age, I remember, like, viciously judging my parents for all the things that they're doing wrong.
Speaker 4:Like, oh, man. They can't actually drive really really well. Like, I thought they did when I was younger because I didn't think about it, but now I'm learning to drive. So I'm obviously the best driver in the world. Or, oh, man.
Speaker 4:The way that
Speaker 3:they learning to drive.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And they oh, when they cook meals, like, that didn't taste that great. But as a kid, you don't think about that as much, you know? And and it's just fascinating at that age when you start, like I said, I mean, the best word I thought of was just like judging or thinking highly of yourself or that prideful attitude towards your your parents or friends or whatever and all the hormones going on in your body. So it's giving me a taste as, like, a father like figure to Nathan to be like, you know, man.
Speaker 4:I look to my own parents. I say, gosh. This is not easy. You know? You just think like, oh, that's their job.
Speaker 4:Like, they're good at it. They need to do that. And it's like, no. Like, this is a very weighty, very heavy, hard thing to do because you take on so much responsibility, and you have to say and do the right things all the time, and and you don't, and you make mistakes, and you go you know, you ask forgiveness, and you move on. You get better, hopefully.
Speaker 4:But but, yeah, even in the short amount of time, I'm getting that taste. So it's like I want that, you know, for my like, god willing, to have when I have kids, to give them to that and have patience Yeah. In that process. So it's been great. It's just like having those two perspectives of, you know, the older mentor mentee relationship to now the younger.
Speaker 4:It's very different in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I don't know that I necessarily experienced the the, like, friendship side of the mentoring relationship. Yeah. And part of that is because I've been very intentional about not doing that. Because in the after school program, like, if they start to feel like you're a friend, respect goes out the window.
Speaker 3:Right? Especially in the junior high where respect for their peers is very low. Right? They are always insulting each other. And so we were actually trained to respond to things like when they're like, bro, and we're like, I'm not your bro.
Speaker 3:I'm your coach. Right? You know, to to command that respect from them. Because if it doesn't, then, you know, God forbid, there's a tornado, and I need them to act right away, right, without asking questions Yeah. Then, like, every second they dilly dally is they're in more danger.
Speaker 3:Right? And so this is another kind of shift that happened between my 1st year and my 2nd year. My 1st year, like, I would give them a command, like, a no, like, act now command. Like, we need to go inside because, you know, we heard gunshots or whatever, which, you know, as a coach, we're paying attention to. They're 13, 14.
Speaker 3:They're playing football. They they're not I mean, they grow up grew up in the neighborhood. They're used to it. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 3:But my number one job is their safety. Right? And so I am acutely aware of situational awareness. I I know what is happening everywhere, 360 degrees around me the entire time we're outside. And so I I hear the gunshots.
Speaker 3:I'm like, we're going inside. And they're like, but why? And I was like, don't ask. Just do it. I will answer your questions later.
Speaker 3:Right now, you're inside. Yep. Right? Yep. And this year, we we actually have a bunch of codes, like safety codes that we can call if we need to.
Speaker 3:Like, for example, a lockdown with a danger outside would be a code blue. Right? K. The kids don't know these codes. Right?
Speaker 3:Yep. We very intentionally do not tell the kids what these codes are. Makes sense. Yeah. And we've had we've had kids.
Speaker 3:1 of them man, I love this kid. But last year, he was always like, what is this? What is the code this? What is the code that? I'm like, I'm not telling you.
Speaker 3:He's like, why not? I was like, because you don't need to know. Yeah. But the exception to that is this this past school year, I did tell them what a code green was. I was like, if I say code green, this is what it means.
Speaker 3:This is how we respond. And we we would run drills because we had to. Right? We're like, a code green means a tornado is coming. I promise you, I will only call that if we actually need to, like, go seek shelter.
Speaker 3:I will never There are 2 times I'll call it. 1 is for a drill, which you will know it's a drill because I will tell you this is a drill. Or if I say it without saying this is a drill, it means don't ask questions. Just follow instructions. And then we can talk about it later.
Speaker 3:Right? But we would run a few of those drills. And they, thankfully, they responded favorably. They didn't do the whole, but why do we need to do this? Or why am I doing this or this and the other thing?
Speaker 3:I was like, this is why. I already told you why. It's like it's a because a tornado is coming, and we need to not die. Yep. But, you know, because of those two things, it's like I especially as a site lead, I need to have the I need to have the respect from them to follow instructions the first time without questions.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? If they're doing something that is unsafe, it is on me as the site lead to fix it, to respond appropriately in the moment, to get them to a place where they're safe. Right? And so because of that, I am, I think this has been called out in some of my reviews, I'm very authoritative. Right?
Speaker 3:I am like it's in in some cases, it's, you know, I'm like, it's my way or the highway. Right?
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I try to balance that with, like, the things that aren't quite as big a deal. I try to balance that with, like, okay. Like, I'll entertain your questions. I'll ask you know, I'll answer whatever question you have about why we're doing this this way kind of thing. And sometimes I don't know the answer.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I just blame Darius because he's the one that puts the program together, and I
Speaker 5:just execute it. They're like,
Speaker 3:why do we have to do this? I'm like, because Darius said so.
Speaker 5:And I
Speaker 3:was like, if you have a problem with it, take it up
Speaker 5:with him because he's
Speaker 3:my boss. But, you know, there are other things that I'm like, you know, I don't really know. Let me let me ask Darius. Let me see if we can figure out why exactly we do it this way, and I'll let you know. And then if we decide that it doesn't like, this doesn't really apply anymore, I'll let you know, and we'll we'll modify from there.
Speaker 3:Right? Yeah. But, you know, in those matters of safety, like, in in the fall of last year, I we were in the gym, and I had one kid stand get up and stand on a rolling desk to try to dunk on the hoop that's 10 feet in the air. Oh, man. And I walked in right as he was standing up and getting on his tiptoes on this rolling desk.
Speaker 3:And I literally, from across the room, yelled, get down, and repeated myself until he got down. I was like, get down, get down, get down, get down, get down, get home. Because, again, it's like, those are things that are just not safe. And I'm like, you need to respond to me the first time in those moments. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? Yeah. So yeah, it's the joys of mentoring, right? It's the things of, like, almost spontaneous spontaneity in its own way. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? It's like, you know, we've talked about spontaneous worship and, like, teaching your mentee to be spontaneous in their worship, but it's like mentoring itself is almost spontaneous.
Speaker 4:Yeah. No. That's really true. I think and yeah. Because it makes me think of my job too.
Speaker 4:Like, I a lot of what I have to do is, you know, selling and consulting. And we spend a lot of time putting together these very well thought out plans of, hey. Okay. We're gonna go in. We're gonna talk about this.
Speaker 4:We're gonna execute this. We have this initiative. We have that con you know, it's very methodical and and beneficial. Right? Because you you know what you you know what to expect, hopefully.
Speaker 4:But 98% of the time, when you walk in, your plans change because you don't it's it's not which in a good way, like, it changes because you have to learn to prioritize, like, what's in the moment for that moment and, like, what it what it demands. And life does not look like a plan, unfortunately. And That
Speaker 3:would be nice if it did.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And and, yeah, I'm sure every single adult that we talk to will say the exact same thing. It's like, oh, yeah. Like, I wanted to do this, and this was kind of my idea about that, but then it it really went this way.
Speaker 3:Plan for my
Speaker 5:life.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. And, like, and God works in in amazing ways like that too where he kind of rightfully so exerts a better plan, you know, in a lot of ways that if we are not resistant to it, like, might actually benefit us.
Speaker 3:Again, if we humble ourselves.
Speaker 4:Yes. And that that is the key, humbling and and obedience because, again, like, we want to be able to control. It's just much more comfortable to be able to control the outcomes and say, hey, If I do this, this will have the output, and it life does not work that way. And and, yeah, like, what to your point about mentoring to same things. Like, you can have this plan.
Speaker 4:Oh, man. Today, it would be really great. Like, I'm thinking about it as I'm driving over. You know, I wanna I wanna pray with Nathan today, or I wanna, you know, tell him about what I do at work or what I, you know, do on worship team and, you know, I wanna do these things and then something happens and, like, maybe he's having a bad day, like, maybe he just needs, like, to have fun, like, to be encouraged, like, maybe my plan is not the best plan. Like, God has given something else in that moment to to follow-up with or to be attentive.
Speaker 4:And if you're not willing to let go of your own thoughts, your own idea of the right thing to do, and to kind of just examine it in the moment and pivot and and be obedient to saying, hey. You know, my plan is not the best right now. Like, I I really just need to be with him. You know, I just need to encourage him, and it doesn't look like what I thought. And it not saying that I do that right every time.
Speaker 4:Sometimes it's I still, like, am hard headed, like, I said I was gonna do this. Like, I'm gonna do it and step out, but and, you know, there's good things that happen from that too. But at the end of the day, the moments that I've had with Nathan where I've I've been obedient to saying, like, hey, holy spirit, like, what do you have to say about him right now? Like, how can I encourage him? How can I, you know, build him up?
Speaker 4:It's almost like holy spirit building me up at the same time, and it it's really powerful. And I believe, like, moments like that are what stick with them. It's not like that I was disciplined or that I said this or that. It's like when I when I follow the holy spirit, I really believe that that work, that planting of that seed in that moment is what is gonna flourish later on that, hopefully, like, looking back at some of those moments of spending time together, he'll be able to carry, like, the reason that I did what I did or, like, the reason that God told me to do this instead of that. And that's what that's what we do for.
Speaker 4:Right? Like, it's it's to bring that father relationship, but it's also to bring that spiritual guidance, you know, in their lives that they will you know, most kids that age don't really get, like, to be honest, if we're if we're looking at these numbers in general, like, having a spiritual mentor and a fatherly mentor is just a really special thing. And it's a humbling experience again for me to be able to do that and to give that to him even if I'm not the best, even if I'm learning as much as he is Right. Because it impacts my life too, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think this has been the question, as you've been talking, that I've had is, 1, is like what what does your relationship look like with him, you know, from the practical standpoint? And more specifically, what are the things that you think he's been learning recently that you've you've kinda been guiding him in that he's kinda picked up on or shown growth in, as well as what are the things that you've been learning through your relationship with him? Like, how has how has God been using that to change and modify and grow and prune and all the all the scary things for you personally?
Speaker 4:Yeah. No. That's a great question. I think for him specifically, as far as, like, learnings and things I'm attentive to is just the way he interacts with other people, with other his peers, his friends around. It's it's a challenge because he's a very competitive, you know, like I said, and competitiveness has a lot of good to it too.
Speaker 4:You know, he can strive and and do really well, like, you put in a lot of hard work and effort, but he has a tendency sometimes to be overcompetitive to where if he doesn't get his way, it, like, affects him very deeply. So just trying to help instill a spirit of, hey. Like, you can be competitive all day long, and that's great, but how you treat people matters. How you respond to a situation that doesn't go your way matters, and how you bounce back from failure, whether it's, like, missing a goal, having the ball stolen away from you, having, you you know, kids come and play basketball when you're already on the court and it's now crowded and and a little bit more difficult, you know, those experiences of of things not going your way in in a lot of ways has been just a testament to what life looks like and getting to get that on a small scale within a program setting because, obviously, that's not their every day, all day, but they do get to have those real world encounters with other people and and things are gonna be said, things are gonna be, you know, you're gonna be put down, you're gonna be discouraged, you're gonna be, you know, in some cases, God forbid, bullied, and and things are gonna be said against you.
Speaker 4:So I've just been really aware of that within his own circle of his friends and program and and having to put on, like, a instillment of encouragement, instillment of bouncing back and responding well to the situations that are presented in front of him. So I've been aware of that, and I've seen a lot of growth in him and have been encouraged by it, but I know there's also a lot more to grow in that area that I'm continuing to see. So
Speaker 3:Almost like starting to show him what humility looks like.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard, man, because we've we've talked that's like another buzzword. Like, we've talked about humility a lot Yeah. Even in this conversation.
Speaker 4:And the reality is is humility, although it is like an attribute about someone, I've also heard that it's not something that you can really, like, label on yourself because Yeah. In a way, it kinda defeats the whole purpose. It was like
Speaker 3:It it becomes self defeating in the sense of, like, if you say, oh, I'm the most humble person in
Speaker 5:the world,
Speaker 3:like It's paradoxical. All of a sudden you're not.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like you you can only truly be humble if somebody else's leader is humble.
Speaker 4:Exactly. And, like, the humility and that we see in the Bible is service. Like, Jesus models that. Like, that's what humility looks like. It is just serving people.
Speaker 4:So with that, you know, I'm teaching him or hopefully, you know, teaching him. I'm obviously, the fruit will tell later on, but teaching him about, like, how you are how you give, how you share, how you are interacting in a way that is not about yourself. And it's tough. Right? Because, again, at that age, you know, it some of those bigger life things like, oh, how do I give stuff away?
Speaker 4:How am I generous? How am I helping other people? Like, those things are hard to to learn at that age, but you can show it. Like, you can if I'm able to show that by, you know, sharing the ball, like, if I'm able to encourage somebody else and spend time with other kids too on there as well, I'm, like, giving away myself and he sees that, hopefully, that being modeled is just another element besides just telling him, hey, you need to be generous. You need to share.
Speaker 4:Because that doesn't always words don't always come across. Most of the time, they don't. It's always, you know, combined with action. Yeah. So
Speaker 3:Which goes back to the sometimes I wish I could just bring in my my students and be like, just watch our serve team. Yep. Which is funny to me that we even call them serve teams. Right? True.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We forget about them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We don't call it worship team or production team. I mean, we do as a way of, like, delineating it from the other serve
Speaker 4:teams.
Speaker 3:But then, collectively, we call them serve teams. Right? The areas where our our church members serve the church to to volunteer and things like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's true. And I guess so the second part of your question Yeah. About how it's affected my own life. I think I kind of alluded to this earlier on, but really patience and and losing control in you know, that term losing control can mean 2 very different things.
Speaker 4:But
Speaker 3:Is it losing control or releasing control? Yes.
Speaker 4:That's what I meant say. So, yeah, releasing that control because, again, I come from whether it is with, you know, my own parents or with music in general and how the rigidity of it, like, I want to have control. That's my natural inclination. So what this has been teaching me as a mentor slash, like, father figure is that I ultimately don't have control, and I have to not only be okay with that, but I have to encourage that within myself because it allows me to relate, like, for him to relate to me, I'm learning how to relate to, you know, fa the father, like, to the Lord and releasing my own control and my own desire to, like Yeah. Do it myself and to be self sufficient and to, you know, to look at his word and his guidance and say, yeah.
Speaker 4:That's great. Like, I'll do that, a little bit of that, but then I also wanna do my own thing too because that's comfortable. I'm like, no. That's that's not the answer. So what I've been gaining is is patience and then just that reiteration of, man, like, there's so many things in my life that I think that I have control over, but I don't, and I need to let that go.
Speaker 4:And I need to release that to the Lord and say, hey. You know, you've given me this, and I'm thankful, but, you know, at the end of the day, I'm laying it at your feet.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And, you know, what do you wanna do with it? You know? Not what I wanna do, but, like, what do you wanna do with it? Mhmm. So that's what it's been teaching me, just being able to teach that to him.
Speaker 4:It's, like, full circle
Speaker 3:back to
Speaker 4:how I relate to the father.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I imagine that translates into other areas of your life too, like maybe your marriage or work or something like that.
Speaker 4:Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean yeah. We did mention before I'm married, I've been married a little over 2 years now to my lovely wife, Jenna.
Speaker 4:And just short backstory, because we have actually a really long story. So if you ever come and and meet me and talk, like, ask about it, it's it's a fascinating, lovely story.
Speaker 3:Dallas. I'll introduce you
Speaker 5:guys to them. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's it's great.
Speaker 3:It'll take you to lunch.
Speaker 4:If absolutely. It's a great story. But all I have to say, long story short, you know, we've known each other for a very long time, and our story is unique in just how we, you know, fell for each other and how we got married. But all I have to say is, yes. It's this relationship with me and Nathan has given me new vision and new understanding, which is a privilege, to be honest, that a lot of parent a lot of people may not get is, like, man, this is kind of a little taste of parenting.
Speaker 4:You know, this is a little taste of, wow. Like, investment pays off, but sometimes it doesn't in the way that we think, and it doesn't give you any reason to just shy away from it. And although, yes, at any point, technically, I could just walk away and say, I don't wanna do this mentoring thing anymore. I can't necessarily do that with my kid or hopefully, god forbid not. But, you know, it's given me that commitment to say, hey, like, I'm in it, you know, I'm in it for my own learning.
Speaker 4:I'm in it for his benefit and for the benefit that comes with the hard work that I get to see the own fruit in his life, but also my own life, and it's just really special and impactful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think it prepares you like you said, it's it's kind of giving you a glimpse at fatherhood, of parenthood. Yeah. It's almost like it's preparing you to lead as a father whenever that time happens, but also, like, to lead Jenna in that as well, right, into not fatherhood, because she won't be a father, but leading her through, like, you know, ideas of, like, discipline or, you know, training you know, the Proverbs, right, training up your child in the way they should go, right, you know, those kinds of things. It's like you're getting almost that real world practical experience being a father before you actually are a father.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:And that will that's setting you up for when you and Jenna do eventually have kids.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. In a way, I would almost recommend it, and it's not this is not a plug that anybody told me to say, but, like, if you get a chance, especially as a young man who is, you know, either unmarried or does not have kids, like, to actually jump into something like this, you'd be amazed, like, how much you learn
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:And how much that can eventually hopefully equip you into, you know, that those stages of life when you start having kids because for me, you know, that's something where I'm hoping to be getting, you know, involved in in the near future. But Fatherhood? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 4:You know? Yep. Start we just bought a house, so we're getting married. Here's here's about that road. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's it's coming. But, yeah, it it's almost like in a funny way too, like, before you even start having kids, like, maybe this is something that you do and you get involved with or serving in that capacity to say, hey. Like, not only do is this prepping me, but it's giving me a real world taste that sometimes can be a hard pill to swallow of, oh, man. Like, parenting is really hard and really fulfilling, I'm sure, but also very difficult, and there's so much learning involved. And, like, like, you just in a way, you get a little bit of a leg up in a healthy way, I believe, if you do it well or if you're you're humble in that process.
Speaker 3:And if you're open to training, essentially. Exactly.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's a big thing too. It's like, again, not thinking that you have all the answers, but willing to give, you know, feedback from people seeing how you do it and asking and and observing and learning and growing in that way is is been impactful for me doing this for a few years now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I've seen that I've seen that in my life too. This is this is a really interesting story. This actually is not related to 4 Runner in any way shape. Well, it kind of is.
Speaker 3:But I was I was back home in Utah for something, a family trip. I don't know. I don't remember why I was there. But I was back home in Utah. Right?
Speaker 3:And just for information, you know, backstory, my my younger sister now has 2 kids. Right? And I think her second had just been born. So her her older kid is about 6. I don't know, Missy, if you're hearing this.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry. I don't know how old I was. I think she's 6. At the time, I think she was about 5. But what what we had done is, like, she needed to eat her dinner, right, which is a daily thing.
Speaker 3:Yep. But she needed she needed to eat her dinner. My sister needed to go get William down for his nap. Right? And I had already asked her.
Speaker 3:I was like, hey, if Emma eats her dinner, ice cream? Maybe? Maybe we go get ice cream at Baskin Robbins.
Speaker 5:You know,
Speaker 3:give her a little treat, you know, kinda thing. Show her that I'm the fun uncle. I don't know. But It's important. She's like, yeah, if she eats her dinner, like, we can do that.
Speaker 3:And so my, like, my parents knew about this. My sister knew about this. We had told her, it was like, hey, if you eat your dinner, like, we're gonna go get a special treat. Right? And she was adamant that she did not wanna eat her peas.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, she was adamant that she did not wanna eat her peas. She like, it was like brick wall, shut down. Like, she was insistent that the only way she was gonna eat her eat her peas is if she got a glass of water. Right?
Speaker 3:And and she was playing this whole, like, you know, tit for tat or ultimatum or whatever kind of thing. And she I mean, she's 5 years old.
Speaker 5:Right?
Speaker 3:And there's a lot of reasons why she's acting this way, but that's a totally different conversation. Anyway, in that moment, like, my parents were trying to grandparent her the same exact way they had parented me, which is admittedly the only way they know how. And I'm starting to understand that and learn that.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it was the very rigid, like, it's my way or the highway. It's, like, you know, ultimatum form of, like, look, if you if you don't eat your peas, you don't get the special treat. We're talking about a 5 year old who cannot process just like Nathan can't process farther than 5 minutes into the future. She can't do cause and effect.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? Yeah. And I'm sitting here going like I'm I'm witnessing this. Right? I I have not really gotten involved at this point.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm just sitting here watching this going like, this is never gonna happen. I was like, the way you guys are you know, in my head, I'm going like, the way you guys are doing this, all that's gonna happen is you're going to enact the consequence because she's not going to eat her peas until she gets a glass of water, but her mom wants her to drink her milk. Right? It's like, this is this is the true definition of a stalemate. And the only thing that's going to happen is everybody's going to be frustrated and crying, including Emma.
Speaker 3:I was like, that is the only outcome of this. So I was like, Emma, come here. Right? Because I've been taught a different way through 4 Runner. I'm like, Emma, come here.
Speaker 3:And so she gets up. I'm I'm on the other side of the table. So she gets up. She comes over. I kneel down to her level.
Speaker 3:My parents are sitting at the table with her. I kneel down to her level, so I'm eye level with her. And I'm like, why don't you want to eat or why do you want a glass of water so badly? I didn't even talk about the piece. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Right? I'm like, why do you want a glass of water so badly? Yeah. And she's like, well, because Dominic says that water is good for you, Dominic being my sister's fiance. K.
Speaker 3:Right? She's like, because Dominic says that water is good for you. And my dad interjects. My mom was like, shut up. She's like, let him let him handle this.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. I was like, you're right. Water is good for you. But do you remember how Dominic told you that bananas have potassium and sodium in them? And she literally, like, had earlier that day had come up to me.
Speaker 3:And my sister was like, tell uncle Josh what you know. And she's like, bananas have potassium and sodium. She's 5 in saying these, like, the names of these minerals. Right? She's freakishly smart.
Speaker 3:So I was like, do you remember how Dominic told you earlier that bananas have potassium and sodium? She's like, yeah. I was like, those things are called minerals. Right? She's like, okay.
Speaker 3:And I was like, milk also has minerals. Your mom wants you to drink your milk. Right? But you want water. Milk has minerals as well.
Speaker 3:It's called calcium. Yep. I was like, you know a calcium dish? And she's like, no. And I was like, calcium makes your your bones stronger.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. I think she had just broken a bone or something. I don't remember. I was like, do you do you wanna or do you want to break a bone? And she's like, no.
Speaker 3:I was like, no. It's really painful, isn't it? And she's like, yeah. And was like, that's why your mom wants to drink wants you to drink your milk is so that you get the calcium to so that your bones get stronger. Yep.
Speaker 3:Peas also have minerals, by the way. So how about this? Why don't if you eat your peas with your milk, I promise you that I will get you some water right after. Right? And we're talking about, like, 3 bites of peas.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, 3 spoonfuls. Yeah. This should take her, like, 30 seconds to eat. Right?
Speaker 3:I was like, if you eat all of your peas, I promise you that I will get you some water right away. Okay? Does that sound like a fair thing to do? And she's like, Yeah. I think that's fair.
Speaker 3:I was like, Okay. Then we'll do that. And she literally turned around, went down, sat down, and ate all of her peas. Wow.
Speaker 5:That's
Speaker 3:great. And my dad right then was like, So when are you gonna when are you gonna make it official?
Speaker 5:And I
Speaker 3:was like, What? And he was like, When are you gonna be a father?
Speaker 5:I was
Speaker 3:like, I gotta get married first.
Speaker 5:That's important.
Speaker 3:But, you know, that's that's just like, that's a story to kinda highlight the, like, be teachable. Right? Because 2 years ago, I would not have known how to do that. Right? That has come from 2 years of experience, a year and a half, actually, I think at the time, of experience having worked with junior high students who we talk about some bigger things than whether or not you eat your peas, right, and things that are much more life and death.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But, you know, it's it's kinda that form of discipline of, like, it's not about the consequence. It's not about punishment. It's not even about getting them to do what you want them to do. Right? It's about building a relationship.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? And so, you know, in that moment, it was just really cool to get to demonstrate for my parents, especially, a new form of discipline, a new form a new way to do things where the desired result was achieved. And, spoiler alert, we also ended up going and getting ice cream that night because she ate all of her dinner. So good. Right?
Speaker 3:So that's just a just a story to kind of highlight, you know, what you're talking about, being teachable, being humble. So we gotta we gotta wrap this up. Maxwell, final question. It's the the title of the series. I've been I've asked every single coach this as well.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Why do you mentor? Because there is nothing financial financially gained for you. Very true. You sacrifice your time, truly your time, to come and mentor Nathan, to show up for him, what, every other week or something like that?
Speaker 3:Why do you why do you do it?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Great question. So, you know, to be honest, starting it starting out, it seemed not, like, coercive at all because I love Stephen Murray. But when he asked me to do it, I was like, oh, man. I have so much going on in my life right now.
Speaker 4:I'm feel like I'm busy at work and doing this. But something deep within me said, you know, like, this is really important. Like, what these guys are doing, how these guys are in so much need of of father figures, and and I have been so fortunate in my life with very loving parents who are still together, and then also just, like, a huge laundry list of of mentor type individuals in my life, you know, with friendships, with spiritual mentors, with music mentors, and and being able to look back, like, when I was thinking about it after being asked because, of course, Stephen Murray would not have judged me if I said, hey, man. Like, this is not for me right now. Like, he would have been super loving about it.
Speaker 4:But as I was thinking about it
Speaker 3:judged me, but not you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So but as I was thinking about it, I was like, man, like, you know, I have been so blessed and I've been so encouraged. And a lot of the times it's crazy because when you are being mentored, I would say 9, maybe even 10 times out of 10, you don't usually like the process of some of the harder things that come with it, of being told no.
Speaker 4:Like, you shouldn't do x, y, and z. You shouldn't hit that person. You shouldn't steal the ball away. You don't like that, but you look back and, like, this has been my experience. You look back and, like, man, like, I am so glad that they told me that, you know, right from wrong.
Speaker 4:I'm so so blessed that they loved me even though I was very unlovable in that moment in a lot of my younger years. So I guess that has really been my sustaining why as to continuing to do it is, like, I have been given that by the grace of God, and it is just amazing to see that and look back and see the fruit of those amazing people in my life who said yes. Yeah. Again, looking at me and being unlovable or what I thought of myself as unlovable, but still choosing to stick with it, still choosing to to do life with me, to celebrate, to encourage me, to build me up, to tell me hard truths, looking at that saying, like, I have no other choice in what I believe than to give that to somebody else Yeah. To give that to to Nathan and to Yeah.
Speaker 4:And to to build his life up like that even though it's hard and even though it is inconvenient because everything in me says, like, I've worked hard all day. Like, I wanna go rest. You know, I wanna go recover, but the holy spirit's saying, no. Like, I have more energy for you today. I have more to give because today is your day with Nathan, and today is the day that you're gonna get to spend with him, to play with him, to enjoy his company, and he's he gets to see you because of all the things that I've taught you, like speaking from the holy as the holy spirit, like, all things in your life that have led you to where you are today.
Speaker 4:Like, I wanna give that taste to Nathan too.
Speaker 3:That's so good.
Speaker 4:I wanna give him just an encouraging figure. Like, I've literally before knowing Jesus, like, I was very pessimistic. I was very egotistical very much about myself and pride. And, like, within the music scene, you almost have to be to to make it. And then, you know, getting to know Jesus, getting to know his heart, like, just full circle 180 of just how I look at, you know, talents and how I look at abilities that have been given to me that I have not brought to myself.
Speaker 4:Like, this is a gift. So, yeah, so all that to say, I, like, I wanna be that gift to Nathan because I've received that gift from others and from the lord.
Speaker 3:So That's so good.
Speaker 4:That's the why. And, honestly, even conversations like this are helping to, like, re to reencourage that because it's not something I think about every day. But being asked that and having to reflect on it, it's like, yeah. Like, this is why I do it. I don't just show up as a robot because I checked off the little box Right.
Speaker 4:On my giving, you know, list or whatever. But I do it because I have a why, because I've been given so much, and I have no other nothing else to do with it, but to give it to somebody else. Like, if I hold on to it, it's gonna spoil.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's
Speaker 4:gonna rot, but if I give that, then it's like this freely flowing living water, like, you know, what Jesus gives to us. I get to give to to Nathan, and I get to encourage him and and love him those ways and not perfectly, obviously. But, again, it teaches so much about my own relationship with the father, and getting to give that to him has been super special. And I'm humbled and honored to do it.
Speaker 3:It's so good. And it you know, going back to the like, having these conversations, we we were talking before we had hit record, y'all, like, an hour
Speaker 5:and a
Speaker 3:half ago now.
Speaker 4:Man, time flies.
Speaker 3:Yeah. For real. But we were talking about, like, the beauty of these conversations being, like, they're recorded.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:Right? And so I don't know. I mean, if you've if you've never had a really long conversation with somebody, like, highly recommend it. My record conversation I don't know if you know this. Probably not.
Speaker 3:My record conversation is 14 hours.
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:In fact,
Speaker 4:just Is that possible?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, we started that conversation at 6 PM in the parking lot of a Chipotle and watched the sun go down. And then we watched the sun come up. Oh, my.
Speaker 5:And then
Speaker 3:we're like, we should probably go to bed. Wow. That same person, I actually just had a 7 hour conversation with, like, 3 or 4 weeks ago.
Speaker 4:Man.
Speaker 3:He and I started talking about something. And the next thing like, that was at, like, 10 PM. And the next thing I knew, it was 5 AM, and I was still talking to him. I was like, I need to hang up. I need to go to bed because I have things to do.
Speaker 3:But point is, if you can have a 7 hour conversation, absolutely do it. It's super cathartic. But, like, these long protracted, like, deeper conversations, at least for me, has always been really, really encouraging. And the beauty about it being on a podcast is now that it's recorded. Right?
Speaker 3:So now it's like you were talking about even just having this conversation has kind of reinvigorated your passion for mentoring. Yeah. It's like now it's recorded. And anytime you're starting to feel drained and wondering, like, why am I doing this? It's like now you can go back and listen to yourself and be like, yo, Maxwell.
Speaker 3:This is why you do this. Yep. Right? It's almost like it's it's almost like it's a letter to yourself.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like a testimony. Like, it's the same thing, man.
Speaker 3:Like A testimony.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like and I experience this literally every single time I talk about my testimony. And it's amazing that God works that way because you you think the story would get old after you tell it, you know, 50, a 100 times. But when you tell it, you realize, wow. Like, I went from death to life.
Speaker 4:I was this way. I am now this way. And it never gets old, and it always, like, reminds you and grounds you again to the gospel Yeah. And what that means. And it's yeah.
Speaker 4:There's so much power in it, and I just encourage not only everybody who's listening, but well, actually, yes. I'm encouraging everybody who's listening because otherwise you wouldn't hear it. But but don't be afraid again to, like, tell your testimony, even, like, make it a habit because it is so powerful, and don't be discouraged by your story because God is not discouraged by your story. Like, all of heaven was was singing and and shouting and praising, like, when you chose to to follow him and to to give up your life for Jesus. So so, yeah, as, like, a plug or anything, just testimonies are powerful.
Speaker 4:I know that in my own life. I know that for every testimony that I hear and I'm being encouraged by. It just reignites that fire that sometimes gets, you know, weighted and died down by the the weights of life and the responsibilities of life, but that testimony speaks to where you were, where you're going, where you are, and what Jesus did. So so keep on doing it. Keep on speaking it.
Speaker 3:I'm looking for a Bible verse that we've about testimony, and I can't find it. I think it's in Revelation somewhere. But it's or may well, it's part of a song. I'm pretty sure it's biblical as well. But it's we will overcome by the word of or by the power of the blood and the word of our testimony.
Speaker 3:Right? I think that's in Revelation.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Sounds right.
Speaker 3:Definitely know it's part of a song by Jeremy Camp, but that's the total You can
Speaker 4:send us an email if you know the verse.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Send send Zach an email. Yeah. Just I don't know if Zach's gonna listen to it, listen to this episode, but just send Zach an email that says testimony in the subject line
Speaker 4:And just write the bible verse.
Speaker 3:And just write the bible verse.
Speaker 4:No context.
Speaker 3:He'll get it to me,
Speaker 5:but also, like, no context. Just send him an email. Let's just spam Zac because that would be so funny.
Speaker 4:Honestly, we'll probably get a lot of different verses, so that'll be amazing too.
Speaker 3:I would love that. It's zach@youcanmentor.com. Anyway, point is, it's like you know, you were talking about, like, the power of the testimony, and I'm like, that's why. Right? It's because it's through our testimony that we overcome, through that reminder of where we were and where we are now.
Speaker 3:That we can continue on in our faith.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:That's so good. Yep. So Maxwell, thank you so much for joining us today. It's definitely not at all what I sent you for the outline. We didn't even start this
Speaker 5:episode talking about what we were supposed to. So It's Okay. I'm totally fine with it. Talking about what we were supposed to. So It's okay.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm totally fine with it. I love these conversations. I love how the holy spirit just moves
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And guides. And it was like, oh, you're gonna talk about this today because you need to be encouraged
Speaker 5:in
Speaker 3:this or or whatever. I mean, that has literally been every single episode of this series and has kind of made me want to keep going but I've already got
Speaker 5:of ideas for new episodes. So well,
Speaker 3:if you have any ideas send them to Zach and maybe maybe I start making a more regular appearance on the on the podcast.
Speaker 4:That'd be great.
Speaker 3:I don't know. It would be it's fun. It's a lot of fun to record these. But in the meantime, what if any final encouragements do you have for our listeners today?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Again, like, power of the testimony, it's so vital. Like, in a world where we're just filled with negativity, with hatred, with racism, with all the, you know, the the fall and and the issues and sin that surround us. Like, the power of your testimony is the light on the hill.
Speaker 4:It's the gospel. It's the truth. So that, but also, you know, again, not being plugged, but, like, I've learned and grown so much in my own mentoring experience. And if you have the opportunity to do that and to give your time, even if it's just, like, an hour every other week, you know, a lot of people will have that that time. Mhmm.
Speaker 4:So don't be afraid to to give yourself, to that experience and to just taste. Because it could be, you know, fathers out there who have already been doing it for a while or, like I said before, those of you who are not involved or single or, look you're not not have kids or anything yet. But, like, it's amazing just seeing these kids light up, seeing the impact in their lives, and just knowing also, in a sense, like, as a responsibility, we don't want these kids to grow up without the father figure, without mentors. Like, that's why they're here. That's why they've been you know, it's been a blessing to have them, you know, around these men of God who are able to give to them in a way that they have not likely been given, you know, that influence and that that love and affection and equal with, like, discipline and and a heart that's after Jesus.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's been, like I said, super impactful for my life. And if you guys are out there listening and you're thinking about it or on the fence, like, jump over the fence and run to it because you won't regret it. It's it's amazing. No matter like, there's definitely days where I've rolled up thinking like, oh, man.
Speaker 4:I'm super exhausted. But getting to spend that time with Nathan, it's like this new burst of energy just is like rushed in. And I and it's so natural and so fun and and rewarding in all the the ways that, you know, I believe parenting, good parenting is involved with. So That's so good. Dive in.
Speaker 4:Do it.
Speaker 3:It could hurt. I agree wholeheartedly. Just if you're thinking about it on the fence, just fall over the fence.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Yep. And in the
Speaker 3:meantime, remember this, you can mentor. Amen. See you next week.