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A More Perfect District is a podcast from the ACLU of D.C. focused on the civil rights and civil liberties issues shaping Washington, D.C. We break down what’s happening, why it matters, and what it will take to protect our rights. Our work spans the courts, the legislature, and the street, all aimed at building a more just and free D.C.
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Art Spitzer: There were enormous anti-Vietnam War demonstrations here. More than 10,000 people were arrested. It's the largest mass arrest in U.S. history. We filed a series of class actions. Everyone's arrest was declared unconstitutional.
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Monica Hopkins: Hey everyone, and welcome to A More Perfect District, a podcast from the ACLU of D.C. We work to protect and advance civil liberties and civil rights for people who live in, work in, and visit D.C. In court, in the legislature, and in the street. I'm your host for this episode, Monica Hopkins, Executive Director of the ACLU DC. Each episode, we take a deep dive into the civil rights and civil liberties issues shaping Washington, DC today and explore how we can protect our rights and move closer to a more just and free DC. Washington, DC is known for being the place to protest where millions of people from across the country come to make their voices heard. But what makes protest here so powerful, and what rights do you actually have when you take to the streets? Today I'm joined by Art Spitzer, senior counsel who has spent more than 40 years defending First Amendment rights. We'll talk about why protest is essential to a healthy democracy, what you need to know to exercise your rights in DC, and how collective action can help build a more just and free District.
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Monica Hopkins: Hi, Art. Thanks for joining us today.
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Art Spitzer: Hi, Monica. Happy to be here.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah. So we're going to jump into First Amendment stuff today. But before we get started, what drew you to this work and being with the ACLU?
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Art Spitzer: Well, I think what really drew me to this work is the golden rule, do unto others as they do to you. And I think basically that's what the ACLU is all about. You don't want people to tell you what you can say, what you can read, where you can go. Well, and you shouldn't impose that on others. And so we protect civil rights and civil liberties. The government should treat us the way we would treat other people.
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Monica Hopkins: Nice. And you've been here quite a while.
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Art Spitzer: I've been here 45 years. Yeah, quite a while. My hair was black when I got here.
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Monica Hopkins: I've seen pictures. Um, so Art, can you tell us a little bit about how the ACLU has defended protesters' rights in DC?
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Art Spitzer: That's been a main focus of our attention for since we started, really, 65 years ago. One of our early cases involved the United States Capitol grounds, which by law were closed to any kind of demonstration. We thought that was wrong. We sued. A 3-judge court agreed with us. The government tried to go to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court wouldn't hear it. So the Capitol grounds are open for demonstration activity. We've done a lot of work involving the White House and the area around it, Lafayette Park, the White House sidewalk, the Ellipse. Um, on several occasions, presidents, President Nixon, President Reagan, tried to limit demonstrations there. How many people, how, what kind of signs you could hold, what hours you could be there. And we fought each of those kinds of restrictions and we, we didn't win everything, but we won. A fair amount, but there are some very technical rules about demonstrating in those areas that people have to be aware of. Um, we, um, did the May Day cases in 1971. There were enormous anti-Vietnam War demonstrations here. More than 10,000 people were arrested. It's the largest mass arrest in U.S. history.
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Art Spitzer: We filed a series of class actions. Everyone's arrest was declared unconstitutional and the records were expunged. Um, and some people were able to get money damages. Um, um, currently we're still doing a case involving Lafayette Park, the demonstrations that occurred there after George Floyd's killing, um, when the federal police attacked the peaceful demonstrators. Um, and, and we filed a lawsuit right away, and some of that has been resolved, but some of it is still going on. And for the, for the rest of DC, not the downtown federal areas, Um, our main accomplishment has been legislative. We went to the D.C. Council about 15 years ago or so and helped to persuade them to pass the First Amendment Assemblies Act, which goes beyond the First Amendment in protecting the rights of people to demonstrate on D.C. property, streets and sidewalks. Um, you don't have to get a permit if you're demonstrating. The police's job, this law makes clear, is to, is to accommodate you. And not to shut you down.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah, and that sort of also came out of a case that we had as well. It did.
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Art Spitzer: It came out of what we call the Pershing Park case, where DC police surrounded a bunch of peaceful demonstrators in Pershing Park and Freedom Plaza and just arrested everybody who was there, which included a lot of onlookers, which included people who were just walking to work in the morning. Um, uh, the D.C. Council got very upset at the D.C. Police about what they did, and that's what really gave us the leverage to push them for a very broad First Amendment law.
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Monica Hopkins: Um, what I love about that is sort of this idea that about protesting and, oh, protecting protesters' rights, but actually it sweeps up everybody. We're protecting everybody's rights, and we're doing that through litigation. And we're like, how do we protect in the future also by changing the system and changing, changing the law?
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Art Spitzer: And, and the good news is the DC police has really been pretty good at following that law. You often will see if you're driving around town or walking around town, you'll see a bunch of demonstrators walking down the street and DC police cars in front and behind sort of clearing the way. Closing off the cross streets while they go by. And often those groups have, have permits, but sometimes they don't, and the police really treat them pretty much the same.
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Monica Hopkins: And we'll be there if they don't.
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Art Spitzer: And we will.
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Monica Hopkins: So, um, how have you seen protesting in DC change over time?
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Art Spitzer: Well, it goes up and down, I think, and it depends, of course, what's going on in the world that people want to protest. You know, there have been massive demonstrations on the Mall from time to time. There was the The Million Man March, there was the, I think it was called the March to Protect Our Lives, reproductive freedom choice march that we were involved in. Enormous anti-war mobilizations back at the time of Vietnam. And of course the enormous women's march right after Trump's first inauguration. So depends what's going on is what happens with demonstrating in DC. And there are demonstrations in DC pretty much every day of the year, ranging from, you know, little groups of 15 or 20 outside some embassy, uh, to these marches or rallies of, you know, hundreds of thousands of people. Um, there have been civil disobedience at various rallies along the way. Some have them, some don't have them. Um, there have been some cases where there's a sort of large-scale choreographed arrests, like during apartheid there were arrests at the South African embassy day after day after day. A certain number of people would just show up and chain themselves to the door and get arrested.
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Art Spitzer: And that's something that was very effective, I think, in that particular situation, but it hasn't happened again because there hasn't been exactly the same kind of a situation. So I wouldn't say I see a sort of a straight trend line in one direction or another. It's much more of a wave.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah, I think that kind of the cool thing about protesting is not just sort of the why, but also the how, you know, people find these creative ways to get their message out. And I was just thinking of some of the Black Lives Matter protests and protests that followed with, you know, particularly in D.C. with people on flatbed trucks playing go-go music and, and, Exercising their First Amendment rights that way to draw attention to what was actually going on here in D.C. Sure.
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Art Spitzer: I mean, talk about creative. In the last few months, we've seen these, these wonderful golden statues down on the Mall of Trump dancing with Epstein and a pile of poop on a, on a desk. And, and there's several of those. It's a group of anonymous artists. Almost no one knows who they are. Uh, and, but they've taken advantage really of the rights that we've helped to protect over the years that, you know, Trump doesn't want those statues. Statutes to be there. And, and the first one was taken down, you know, knocked down by the park police very quickly. But then the, the government realized it couldn't do that legally and it went back up. Um, because there, there are cases and, and rules in effect that say, you know, here's where you can put a statue, here's where you can get a permit. The government can't just say no because they don't like it.
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Monica Hopkins: It's so interesting because when we think about protests, we think about the marchers, right? And it's, you know, the statues that are just somewhere in protest of the government. But also the, as you were talking, I was thinking about the projections too that we're seeing in a lot of places right now across the country to protest the government.
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Art Spitzer: Right. And, you know, who knows what new things artificial intelligence is going to bring us.
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Monica Hopkins: And we'll, uh, we'll sort of adapt our First Amendment laws to kind of protect those rights as well.
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Art Spitzer: Yeah.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah. Well, um, why do you think it's particularly important to protest in the nation's capital?
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Art Spitzer: Well, I think it's particularly important to protest everywhere, frankly. You know, protesting in a state capitol or at a city hall can be just as important. And sometimes, you know, a protest at a city hall, can be more effective because it could be a significant amount of the town that's turning out to protest. But protests here, of course, it's a, it's a national stage. Congress is here. The president is here. And there's lots of media here. And so, uh, protests here can, can bring issues directly to the attention of lawmakers and executives. Who have the power to change things nationwide and not just in a given town or state. And that's why some of these big, big protests come here because they're trying to affect the national landscape.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah, we've seen sort of this interesting thing happen too, where because we're in such a time that there is a huge protest in DC, but then there are similar at the same time sort of protests, like you said, at city halls and other state capitals.
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Art Spitzer: And right, I mean, No King's Day is a perfect example. They're all over the country.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about, um, protesters' rights here in DC?
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Art Spitzer: Well, so there's, there's, there's some funny stuff here in DC because it's not one government. There's the federal government, there's the DC government, and within the federal government, there's Capitol, the Congress Capitol grounds. Um, there's the White House, which the Secret Service has a lot of, uh, a lot of attention to. And so people demonstrating here probably have to pay a little more attention to the rules than people in some other places. If you want to demonstrate on D.C. streets and sidewalks, you talk to the MPD. If you want to demonstrate on the White House sidewalk, you're talking to the Secret Service and the Park Police. If you want to demonstrate on the Capitol grounds, you're talking to the Capitol Police, and each one has a, has a different set of set of rules, and there are limits on how many people can be in certain places, like on the White House sidewalk or in Lafayette Park. Um, and, um, we've put out a know your rights pamphlet, which is available on our website and in paper form that gives you a roadmap to some of that. Um, and there are, there are some restrictions too on, for example, the kinds of poles you can use to support a sign.
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Art Spitzer: You know, it can't be like a sharpened stick that could turn into a bayonet. Um, um, so you have a right to go demonstrate and most of the time if you just went out and demonstrated you'd be fine. But especially if, if you're thinking about, um, anything unusual, whether it's civil disobedience, whether it's big, big signs, whether it's a speaker's platform or a stage with sound equipment, then you really need to check the rules. So you won't find yourself in a problem.
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Monica Hopkins: Right. It's sort of like you need to know the bounds of the rules and sort of know what's within them, but also make informed choices for yourself about how far you want to push the bounds.
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Art Spitzer: Well, that's right. I mean, some people want to, as they say, risk arrest. Right. And you don't have a legal right to commit civil disobedience, but some people want to for as a way to make their point. Uh, and, and, and local law enforcement pretty well knows how to deal with that too. Just like those arrests at the South African embassy that I mentioned. If you want to chain yourself to the White House fence or sit down and block a doorway somewhere, you're probably gonna get arrested. You'll probably be given an opportunity to get up and move away first, but you're likely to be arrested if you don't. And it's, it's my own view is it's generally useful to give law enforcement a heads up if, if that's what's gonna happen so that they're not taken by surprise. Cuz when people are surprised is when things often don't go so smoothly. Um, if the police know that you're gonna be, you know, sitting down and blocking a doorway, they'll have adequate people there, adequate vehicles there that they can smoothly do what you want and what they need to do. And you can time it so that you'll be in court and out again the same day instead of having to be held overnight.
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Monica Hopkins: But the beauty is you don't have to tell the government.
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Art Spitzer: You don't have to. No, you want to surprise them, you can surprise them. Um, that's right.
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Monica Hopkins: Um, so if people want to get involved in protecting and expanding protest rights in DC, what can they do?
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Art Spitzer: Well, they can, of course, exercise their rights. Um, they can support the ACLU, which is here to help you protect and defend your rights in DC. And, and, uh, when it comes to, um, demonstrations that don't involve the federal government, the DC Council can be quite responsive. If, if people think there's something that needs to be changed and improved, we hope you'll contact us and talk to us about that. But, But the, the DC Council is open, I think, to those kinds of discussions.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah. So, um, this question is for you as a person living in the DMV. Um, so feel free to take your ACLU DC, uh, hat off and, um, tell us a little bit about how long you've lived in the area and what's your favorite thing about DC.
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Art Spitzer: Well, I, I moved here in the, in the fall of 1976, so it's going to be 50 years. Later this year. I thought then, and I still think it's a beautiful place. One thing I really like about it is the easy access to outdoors. I'm in Rock Creek Park with the dog almost every morning. But it's also a real city. There's really terrific music and theater and good restaurants and stuff like that. It's not New York, but there's pretty good culture. And I think it's an exciting place to live because it's, it's sort of the center of the universe, uh, in many ways. I mean, I'm sure New Yorkers think New York is the center of the universe and Parisians think it's Paris, but, um, but there's a lot going on here at, at every level. And, um, and, uh, an ordinary person can take advantage of it. You can go down and go to the visitors gallery and watch Congress in session. You can go to the Supreme Court and watch an argument. You might have to get there early, but you can do it. And so I certainly think I made a really good choice when I moved here.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah, I think people would be super surprised about a city both the size of D.C. that you think of sort of, oh, a city like New York, but massive amounts of open space. Yeah. Yeah, in this city, you kind of get the best of both worlds.
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Art Spitzer: You do. I mean, Rock Creek Park, for those who don't live here, runs right down the middle of DC, and there's, there's, you know, from almost anywhere in DC you can get there pretty easily. And, you know, if I'm hiking in Rock Creek Park in the summer, I can't see civilization. All I can see is trees.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah, it's pretty stupendous.
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Amber Taylor: Yeah.
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Monica Hopkins: Yeah. Well, thank you, Art, so much for telling us a little bit about the ACLU and protest rights and Thanks for joining us.
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Art Spitzer: It's always a pleasure to talk to you. My pleasure. You too, Monica.
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Amber Taylor: That's it for this episode of A More Perfect District, a podcast from the ACLU of DC. I'm Amber Taylor, Strategic Communications Director. Thanks for spending time with us. Join us next time as we break down the civil rights and civil liberties issues impacting Washington, DC. For show notes and ways to take action right now, visit acludc.org. Backslash podcast. And don't forget to follow, rate, and share this podcast to help more people stay informed. Till next time.