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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
What I love about Square One is that
you can come here and learn about
God, and you can make new friends
from other church groups, and that
you can sing songs about God, and
have a lot of fun with your friends.
What I love about Square One
is that we can invite friends
to come and learn about God.
And we can learn as a family together and,
um, have heaps of fun whilst we do it.
It's just so fun.
The activities you get to do,
um, the talks are amazing.
Like, the singing is, feels amazing.
Just everything about it is just amazing.
Definitely the people, like everyone's
so welcoming and also like all the games.
They're awesome.
So please come with your church groups,
with your leaders, with your friends.
We're going to have a
great weekend together.
Our theme this year is Rock Solid.
We're going to be exploring how Jesus, he
is the one who died, was buried in a tomb,
but was then raised to life and is the
rock solid foundation for everything.
Someone should come to square one.
Because it's so fun and
it's Jesus combined.
What better could it be than
that?
You can register for square one
Winter at youthworks.net/square
one.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
where I'm at today, part of it is.
As a result of reflecting on the sort
of challenges that we were facing in
youth ministry in the Anglican Diocese
of Sydney at the time, sort of end of
, there were a very small number of long
term vocational youth ministry leaders Uh,
and so we wanted to shift that we wanted
to say that Children's and Youth Ministry
is a thing and it's a thing that is worth
giving yourself sort of heart, soul,
mind strength to, uh, and so developing
that sort of theological discourse
in Children's and Youth Ministry.
And I mean, that's just continued,
And youth ministers and children's
ministry leaders, we need
to take ourselves seriously.
We need to not let people look
down on us because we're just
ministering to young people and uh,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
That almost sounds biblical,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
it almost sounds biblical.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The young people deserve it
and, and Jesus deserves it.
Welcome back to the Effective
Ministry Podcast, the podcast that
helps you have an effective youth and
children's ministry in your church.
my Name is Al James.
I'm a youth ministry advisor
for YouthWorks in Sydney.
I'm Cameron Hart.
I'm a children's ministry
advisor here at YouthWorks.
And Cam, it's really good to
have you on the podcast today.
And, uh, you spend a lot of
time with kids, ministers.
You spend a lot of time meeting with
them, helping them troubleshoot, helping
them to grow and think about what
children's ministry might look like.
I would love to hear from you.
What's one thing that you love
about working with kids ministers?
Uh, one of the great things is
getting to spend time with people
who want to see young people
growing as disciples of Jesus.
So kids ministers who are leading
teams in their churches of leaders.
Who know that children, even the youngest,
they're Christians, they love Jesus, and
how do they grow as disciples of Jesus?
So being able to spend time with people
who love kids and that they would
grow to love Jesus, um, is a real joy.
How about you as a youth advisor?
What's, what are you seeing
in the youth ministry space?
Well, I think one of the things I
just love so much is that I, I get the
chance to just spend time with youth
ministers and I'm still learning.
I, I love that.
I'm still learning.
I had an experience the other day
where we had a network meeting, uh, and
the topic we were talking about was.
How much, what percentage of
the teaching should a youth
minister do in a youth group?
And the answer, and the an, the
answer is, it depends, obviously.
Um, but my default kind of assumption
has been share it round with your
team as much as you possibly can.
And so I'd go on, you know, once or twice.
Uh, in the kind of roster cycle, but
I was challenged, um, through the
discussion just to think about maybe I
need to just sort of turn the dial up
in terms of how much a youth minister
might, uh, be preaching and obvious.
Obviously it depends on a bunch of
factors, but I really felt like that
was such a precious thing for me to
kind of be learning, um, because of
the people that I'm interacting with.
Wonderful.
Great.
So yeah, even in this role, still
learning from the people out there in the
trenches, how can we continue to grow?
In our ministry, um, as
we lead local churches.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now we've got a bunch
of episodes coming up.
Uh, we're really excited to
share with you, cam, why don't
you tell us about some of them?
Uh, first, so one we've got coming up
very soon is we're gonna spend some
time thinking about how do we go the
distance as kids and youth ministers.
So how can we be leading in
our churches, serving in our
churches, not just a 1, 2, 3 years?
What does it look like to be a kids
or youth minister for 5, 10, 15 years?
Uh, what are the things
that will keep us going?
How do we keep going?
How do we keep growing, uh, and
go the distance as a kids or youth
minister, which is obviously important.
Um, not just for ourselves.
We wanna make sure that we are doing
well, but we also know this research
that says that longevity in youth
ministry for youth ministers and
kids ministers, um, actually has a
really positive impact on the ministry
itself and for the kids themselves.
Absolutely.
, what else are we gonna be looking at?
Uh, after that we're gonna have a q and
a episode, uh, which is gonna be great.
You guys are sent in questions, um,
and you can keep sending in questions,
effective ministry podcast@youthworks.net.
Send in you questions, and then
we'll have a panel of people,
to answer those questions.
You know, you ask we'll answer.
That's where we're heading
in the next couple of weeks.
What about today?
Uh, we have the privilege of, uh,
having Graham Stanton join us today.
Uh, Graham is the founding
principles of Youth Works College,
and one of the reasons why there's
so many well-trained youth and kids
ministers in the Sydney diocese today.
He's also a lecturer at Ridley
College in Youth Ministry.
And you know the other hat that
he wears is that he's the founding
director of Youth Ministry Futures.
That's kind of the topic that we're
gonna be talking about today, is what
kind of youth ministry leaders are we
going to need for the National Church
for Youth Ministry to really thrive and
flourish from here and on into the future.
Wonderful.
Sounds great.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Let's dive in.
It's gonna be great.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: I am
here with Graham Stanton and Graham.
Great to have you on the podcast.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
be here, Al.
Thanks for having me.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: You wear a
lot of hats in, uh, your various roles.
Um, what hats do you wear?
Tell us about, you know, what
color they are, what they look
like, all those kinds of things.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: This
is a little glimpse into my dysfunction,
um, saying yes to too many things perhaps.
But my, my formal hats, I, I work as
a faculty member at Ridley College.
So, I am Lecturer in Practical Theology,
uh, that role basically entails
being the Director of the Centre
for Children's and Youth Ministry.
So that's three days of my week.
Uh, the other two days I am the,
uh, the Founder and Director of
the Youth Ministry Futures Project.
Uh, then I've got, there are various
things that then are related to that,
like I am an associate editor of
the Journal of Youth and Theology.
I am the chair of the Children and
Young People Ministry Steering Committee
for the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne.
I am a member of the Youth
Pastor Theologian, Council
or, um, Reference Council.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Actually
really, I'm interested in that one.
How did, how did that come about because
we've had a little bit to do with Mike
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
YPT, yeah,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
but just, yeah, yeah.
So Mike McGarry, youth pastor theologian.
How did you guys get in touch?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
We met each other at an international
youth ministry conference in Manchester,
uh, beginning of January, 2024.
And uh, a late night drinking whiskey
with Robin Barfield and Mike McGarry.
Sharing stories?
It was, it was just that meeting of, uh,
meeting of minds, meeting of hearts, like
the, the story of youth ministry, the sort
of challenges that the three of us were
facing in different corners of the globe.
Um, and look, Mike's, Mike's ministry
is great and they've got a, they've
got a big market outside the US.
So I think, um, I'm, I'm
sort of the non US member
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
The non yank.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So , I've,
I've counted a few, , we've got Ridley
faculty, I've got youth ministry futures.
, founding director, uh, we've
got , associate editor of , an
academic journal in youth ministry.
You're the board member of, or a board,
board member of Youth Pastor Theology.
Anything
we're missing so far?
oh, there was a Diocesan role.
as well.
I'm sorry.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
There's a new one, the International
Council for Evangelical
Theological Education, ISET.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Okay.
That's a
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
They, they're particularly working at.
Uh, promoting or supporting
evangelical theological
education in the majority world.
And they've created a whole bunch
of impact teams that are looking at
particular areas of theological education.
And so I'm a co leader of
the youth ministry leadership
development impact team,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
I mean, choose your metaphor.
Many hats, fingers in many pies.
Um, one of, one of your previous hats
that you, that you wore was, um, As the
founding principal of YouthWorks College.
Uh, what year, what year was
YouthWorks College founded,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Uh, we, we officially opened in 2000.
Uh, we did a whole lot of, uh,
background preparation work in 1999.
So man,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, was that before or
after the Olympics in 2000?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Uh, before, before,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: yeah,
, I'm actually really interested to
know because you're, you're involved
in a whole lot of stuff that is I
guess to do with the, the quality and
characteristic of youth ministry right
now, both in your local setting, but
also around Australia and the world.
Um, you're also thinking about,
um, the future of youth ministry.
But with that hat of the founding
director of YouthWorks College, I'm,
I'm wondering as you reflect on that
time, um, are there any things that
you learned along the way there?
That have led you in the
direction that you're going now.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's a great question, Al.
Um, I mean, look, certainly there
were, there were aspects of that
ministry that was just so exciting,
life giving, um, challenging, uh, what
a great, what a great time that was.
Um, so I, I think there's, there
is that sense of, uh, Uh, never
go alone, uh, in, in ministry.
So like we're sort of familiar with
that, but that was very much that,
that whole dynamic of those early years
were they're pretty cowboy and wild.
So there's lots of fun stories to share,
but the people that God had gathered
together, that was extraordinary.
Um, that's, that's been an ongoing
theme, but I think, uh, you know,
where I'm at today, part of it is.
As a result of reflecting on the sort
of challenges that we were facing in
youth ministry in the Anglican Diocese
of Sydney at the time, sort of end of
, there were a very small number of long
term vocational youth ministry leaders Uh,
and so we wanted to shift that we wanted
to say that Children's and Youth Ministry
is a thing and it's a thing that is worth
giving yourself sort of heart, soul,
mind strength to, uh, and so developing
that sort of theological discourse
in Children's and Youth Ministry.
And I mean, that's just continued, you
know, um, yeah, coming to Melbourne, uh, I
had that sense of, yeah, similar type of.
Uh, some long term youth ministers,
um, a lot of people, uh, really with a
great heart and vision, um, and a great
opportunity to pull people together.
And you know, really, uh, these
international connections as well,
uh, seeing that we're facing all
very similar challenges and the
opportunity to, to band together.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: yeah, as, as
we, as I sort of read and hear from Mike
McGarry in the Youth Pastor Theologian
kind of world, like it sounds like, it
sounds like one of the chief things that
he's doing is, is, um, he's trying to
advocate for youth ministry and ministry
to young people in general as well, but
advocating for youth ministry as something
that is of great and significant value
that, you know, I mean, his big thing is
youth ministry is theological ministry.
It's not just a thing that we'd run.
We want to be thinking about it.
It's something that we want
to give value and credence to.
Um, yeah, it sounds like there's
a, there's a lot of commonality
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
We had a, we had an advertising
brochure back in the day that slogan
was, this ministry is serious.
And it was sort of playing on this
idea that actually there's a lot
about children's and youth ministry,
which is a whole lot of fun.
And you know, I'm just so grateful
that God gave me a, uh, a heart and
gifts and vocation for ministry with
young people and not ministry with
adults, because I think that would
just I'd find that really hard work.
So, , part of my job here at Ridley
included going on youth camp just recently
with 206 teenagers, uh, running around
playing capture the flag at night.
And like that, that was great fun.
Um, so there's, there's plenty
of joy in this ministry.
But we don't do it just because it's fun.
We do it like there's something
really serious about what we're doing
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
it's serious.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and youth ministers and
children's ministry leaders, we
need to take ourselves seriously.
We need to not let people look
down on us because we're just
ministering to young people and uh,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
That almost sounds biblical,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
it almost sounds biblical.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The young people deserve it
and, and Jesus deserves it.
, al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: you
mentioned that there were very, very few
, long term vocational youth ministers, um,
in, you know, in the year 2000, what,
what kind of numbers are we talking about?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Oh,
like at the time we talked about roughly
across Sydney, I think there were, there
was sort of five that were, you know,
from the, from the big churches, they'd,
they'd been going for a long time.
Um, and, and they were sort of
well known, but I've often said,
and I said this to these guys
faces, I'm friends with them all.
That they were all
considered weird in some way.
Like if you were a fan, then you said they
were just weirdly excellent and gifted.
If you were a critic, you said,
yeah, they're just weirdly unusual.
But the
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: But
everyone agreed they were weird.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
and this was an outlier.
So to be a long term youth minister,
that was, like some people could do
that, but of course that's just unusual.
The rest of us get on with the
part time, short term thing.
And, and that, that is still where
the Australian Church is today.
That's one of the great,
oh, the great pains, really,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Just realizing that these questions
that I, I got phone calls all the
time back in the early 2000s from
ministers saying, Oh, we really want
to employ somebody, , part time to
do something with the young people.
Have you got, can you, can you let me
know the names of the good people that
you've got that you can send my way?
And it's like, we don't have
anybody we can send your way
because the people who have come
to college have come from a church.
Um, we, it's not like we've got a
pool of, you know, 30 well formed,
really great youth ministry leaders
that are just itching to get to your
church to work for two days a week.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Gate
that we're holding people back,
, graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
and we're still there.
We still have, there are more
jobs available than there
are people to take them.
And there are more needs than there
are jobs and than there are people.
And that's,
that, we, that's what we
really want to focus on.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: In my
work at YouthWorks College and in
my work as a youth ministry advisor,
, around, , Western Sydney, I still
get those phone calls today and we
still are facing that in Sydney.
And obviously, partly due to
the work of YouthWorks College
over a long period of time.
, the equation has changed, but it is
interesting, isn't it, that some of
the same questions that we get and
my, my, my response is almost always,
um, you, you've got to raise them
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: You
know, you, you, you have to, you have
to , tap somebody on the shoulder and
say, you know what, I actually think
that this ministry is so important and
you know, I'm not going to just reserve
you for various other ministries.
I want you to invest in this, um,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: So
it'll be quicker, it'll be quicker to
grow your own youth minister than it
will be to wait to buy one off the shelf.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: That's
right, that's right, and the benefit
of raising people up is that sometimes
your church might end up with a surplus
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yes.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: to
then bless other churches with.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah,
we've got to have that kingdom thinking.
Um, really fascinating to talk
about that, those kinds of things.
Graham, I want to ask you, you know,
you've spent a lot of time thinking about,
, teenagers and ministry to teenagers.
You've thought a lot about
the Australian church.
Where are we at with teenagers
in the church in Australia
and beyond Australia as well?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: yeah.
There's a couple of ways
that I'd like to answer this.
And one is to say there are some
really beautiful and wonderful
things that are going on.
There are some great leaders
and great ministries.
There are young people that are
stepping up and contributing in
the life of the church and in
the life of the broader society.
And we need to keep on recognising
that God is at work in all this.
But, overall, Australian local
church youth ministry is a raging
dumpster fire, is my technical
language that I'm choosing to use.
Like I, cause I don't think we're
really grasping the nettle of this
is, there's, there is a real crisis.
So we, we looked at, um, some
NCLS statistics from 2016,
like we had this vibe, okay.
I reckon there are some high, some.
Really bright lights, but but a lot
of other places maybe not so great.
So I wonder exactly what is going on
So you look at the NCLS statistics and
25 percent of churches in Australia
This is across denominations across the
country 25 percent of churches have no
young people involved in their church.
Not just not coming to church I
mean, it's about 47 percent of
churches don't have any young
people at church services on Sunday
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
At the Sunday
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
At the Sunday service, yeah, but
this is 25 percent have no young
people anywhere in their ministries.
The next 25 percent have fewer than five.
And then the next sort of 24 percent
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
sorry, just to clarify, fewer than
five people, five young people.
yeah, yeah,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, 75 percent of churches in
Australia have 15 or fewer young people.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
So, yeah, there are bright lights and
there are some really great and big
and thriving ministries that we sort of
know of, but there are so many places
that don't and, and it means that there
are so many communities where young
people don't have that opportunity for
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: And
in some ways, we would never, we've
never ever say, Oh gosh, I wish those
bright, you know, those bright lights
would kind of just diminish a little
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Hmm.
Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
but in, but in some ways, partly
because of the brightness of
those lights, we, we don't see.
We don't see those sort of darker parts.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Now when you say, what's
it like across the world?
I don't, I don't know statistics for
everywhere, but I know that in the Church
of England, they have like 75 percent
of churches that have no teenagers.
So they are, they are much, much
further down the road than we are.
and, and that's really
shaken them up there.
They're investing millions
of pounds, um, in, uh, trying
to revitalise youth ministry.
It seems that Australian church is not
yet quite that desperate to make the
massive investment, but, but I think
more and more people are realising, hang
on, this is, this really is a problem.
Um, it's, it's, it's a problem
for those that are concerned about
the longevity of institutions.
And, and it's a concern for the growth
of the gospel and the, the, the, the
wellbeing of Australian young people.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: of
the things that you talk about is
the idea of systemic immaturity.
What do you mean by that?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
We've spent a lot of time thinking about
the why and at least part of the why.
Um, I think is related to leadership
and, and the fact that this system is
the vast majority of youth ministry
roles in Australia are part time,
um, 80 percent of churches don't have
anybody employed with a youth ministry,
um, uh, hat on, uh, and the 80 percent
who are employed are employed part
time and part time ministry is almost
by definition, short term ministry.
Because these roles are either
filled by the university student
who has got spare time to fill, or
the person who is a ministry trainee
who is studying ministry as well as
doing youth ministry on the side.
But the time comes when
people need a proper job.
They get a family or, you know,
begin to need to be fully employed.
And they go into other things.
So part time equals short term, um, and
short term means that we end up with youth
ministry leaders that are perennially
untrained or not fully trained.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah.
They haven't had the opportunity to be
formed in the practice of youth ministry,
in the theology of youth ministry,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
that's right.
Yeah.
They haven't stuck at it long enough.
They haven't been able to stick at
it long enough to get good at it.
Um, John Chapman used to
always say of preaching the
first 50 years is the hardest.
Well, like that's true.
Um, and you get better at it after
50 years, but nobody stays in youth
ministry long enough to get good at it.
Now that's, that's
obviously a generalization.
Okay.
Um, but this idea of.
Uh, part time short term untrained
ministry perpetuates this idea in the
church that youth ministry is only a
stepping stone to something proper.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: you
know, it sort of does my head in how.
how prevalent, how enduring that idea is.
This idea that of course, I mean, by
definition, you can't be a long term
youth minister because by the time you get
to your mid to late 20s, you've, you've
necessarily aged out of this ministry.
And
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
Because you, because you need to
be young to do youth ministry.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's, that's this prevailing assumption.
And it's, it is extraordinary how
widespread that idea is, you know, what
we really need in youth ministry is just
the people who are young and energetic.
That's what's going to,
that's, what's most important.
You know, um, I tell people that,
uh, you know, there's a local
school that's opening up and
the, and the fees are really low.
Um, all of the teachers are under 25.
Um, uh, There's only very few of them
that have finished their training, um,
uh, and they turn over every two or three
years, you know, like nobody's going to
send their kids to a school like that.
And often, uh, the well functioning
schools and the teachers
that are most influential.
It includes those, the young
graduates that relate well, but it
also includes the people who have
been teaching for 20, 30, 40 years.
And just, they love their subject
so much, and they love engaging
with young people so much.
They've worked out how to do
this, and they connect really
deeply with young people.
So, we know that this actually
does work, work in that sense of.
It's not like Australian young
people really don't want to
talk to anybody who's over 25.
But the church, we seem to
have settled into that idea.
And I suspect that what we're
doing is sort of theologising
out of our experience.
And our experience is, youth ministers are
pretty much always under 25, short term,
untrained, who move on to other things.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So
when you say we're theologizing out
of our, out of our experiencing,
you've come across theologies.
That suggests that,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Uh, I'm,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
youth ministers should be young.
Is that what you mean?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah,
yeah, I, I'm using theology pretty broadly
at that point, but a sense of what is the
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
It's like, hey, Graham, you're
talking to a Sydney Anglican here.
You can't do that.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: sorry,
sorry, I need to be a bit more precise.
I'll try and sit straighter.
Um, yeah, that, that, that we begin
to say this is what ought to happen.
This is the, this is
the right thing that we
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: We're
moving from the is to the ought.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's right.
That's right.
And what I want to really challenge
that is, and I think there are lots of
places where we can point to, of hang on,
here's somebody who is long term in this
ministry and now we can begin to see the
different mindset that they bring to it.
The different mindset that their
church and young people bring as they
encounter a youth minister who is saying,
I'm going to be here for 10 years.
A youth minister who has his own children,
or, um, Uh, you know, has got these
years of experience, they just come with
a different set of expectations and a
different agenda, uh, in the ministry.
And I, and I think it's
one that is sorely needed.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So, I
mean, it sounds to me like you're,
you're not, you're not kind of lobbing
bombs at the idea of part time per se.
It's not, it's not that there's
anything wrong with part
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Hmm.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
um, but maybe you might say short
term is a problem, you know?
So if in so far as part time, um,
is synonymous to or leads to short
term and therefore, um, leads
to untrained, that's a problem.
Um, is, have I got you right?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, that that's certainly the short
term nature of things I think is
particularly unhelpful in the sense
that where we are not producing a
senior eldership in youth ministry.
When you look around every other area
of church ministry, like preaching,
church planting, pastoral care,
chaplaincy, you can point to people who
are In their 70s and 80s and have been
doing this ministry for 50 years and
they're in that those years of their
ministry where they're feeding back
into an emerging generation of leaders,
uh, we're drawing on their wisdom.
There's very few people in youth
ministry that we can point to like that.
Um, so that's, that's a problem.
That's the systemic immaturity here.
You know, the, the, the added
challenge of part time is that.
Generally speaking, a part time ministry
is able to continue programs, to keep
programs running, but to be able to
sit back and to think on the ministry,
working on the ministry, not just
in the ministry, that distinction,
that opportunity to think through,
okay, are we doing the right things?
What are the missional innovations
that we need to pursue?
Do I have time to try out some
things, um, both time in my week and
time in terms of longevity to give,
give these things a shot, you know?
So what's really interesting as
we've looked at, NCLS, , data
is that having a full time youth
minister , has a great correlation
with positive growth in the numbers of.
Young people and young adults compared
to having no youth minister, but
having a part time youth minister
doesn't, doesn't make any difference
than having no youth minister.
Yeah,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: having
no youth minister, so, so no one
employed in a role, is, um, essentially
the same as having, according to
the numbers, a part time youth
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
that's right.
That's right.
And it's, it's a bit of
a stunning conclusion.
And the danger of
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: to
complete that thought, but, to have,
you're saying that the, the numbers
are showing, the stats are showing us
that having a full time youth minister,
There is a correlation between positive
growth and and that that variable.
Okay.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yep.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
These are large scale figures across
the country, averages and, and so on.
And we're all going to be able to
point to a full time youth minister
where the ministry has not grown and
a part time youth minister where it's
gone gangbusters and a church that
has no youth minister where things are
really, um, humming along really well.
Okay.
Um, but there's, there's, there's
something in the overall picture
that Begins to suggest that there
is something about a full time
dedicated role that has something to
do with increased numbers of young
people and young adults participating
present in the life of the church.
Now, what that is, what those
dynamics are, that's what we
need to keep on exploring, okay?
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah,
that was gonna be my question is You
know, what are your hunches about
what it is about full time that leads
to those positive growth indicators?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah,
I think my hunches are that because Full
time, as I said before, gives you the
chance to think, think about the ministry
rather than just maintain the programs.
So to begin to think, are we
doing the right things here?
What would be the missional
initiatives that we will pursue?
Try the experiments.
And you've got just that expanded
mindset to be able to do that.
Because then full time
relates to longer term.
Then there is that sense of yeah, okay I
can try that this year and see how that
goes and tweak that and get it better and
you know, you see these people that have
been in in a role for 10 15 years and the
The rostering, the organizing, the things
like there's, there's a, there's a process
that they've honed and they've worked that
out and, and that's, that's not a problem.
It gives them this
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: think
about the programming anymore,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, of course that can be,
that can mean you end up with
a really stale, uh, ministry.
Okay.
These people are not doing that.
I think they've worked out how
to get younger leaders involved
and other ideas and so on, but
they've got this capacity now to.
Think, okay, well, what's next?
What else can we do with this?
How do we really embed these young people
in the life of the church and get them
involved in God's mission and so on.
So you've got that time of length of
time to experiment with new things.
And the third aspect of it is because
the full time is generally long term
and enables people to be well trained.
And that well trained, uh, I
mean, they develop the wisdom,
you know, so that, uh, we've got,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: it's
not talking, you're not talking
about receiving training in
specific things necessarily per se.
You're talking about, um, the, the, the,
the growth in capacity and in wisdom
and in, you know, um, you know, ability
to try things out, that kind of thing.
That there's, there's, there's,
it's not specific, it's not
about the training per se.
There's something more to it.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, there is.
There's something more to it, but I also
don't want to dismiss the value of it.
Completely not.
I mean, that's my job.
That's right.
Like we
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: but
you're more interested, it sounds like
you're more interested in the result
of, of good training Rather than,
like, it's not, it's not a ticker box.
Okay.
Well, you go and get your diploma done
Um, that, that, that's the thing that
correlates it's, it's that it's the
result of that training that leads to
youth ministers that are, um, that are
therefore more equipped, more able to
kind of wrestle with the problems and
challenges by theological and pragmatic
that they're thinking through, um, because
they've had that training coupled with
the other things you're talking about
that, you know, the, the, um, the, the
full time, um, the long term as well.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
that's right.
There, there are plenty of
numpties with a theological degree.
So just getting a degree isn't the answer.
Okay.
Um, but there is something about a degree
in theology that takes you from a, I
talk about a, a, a diploma gives you a
great biblical shape to your ministry.
Um, uh, the degree adds the
theological reflection that enables
you to craft new ministries that
are appropriate in new settings.
So there's something about that, okay.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So moving
from replicating to kind of, um, to
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Innovating improvising.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And of course you can develop that
theological wisdom from your own
reflection and that that's got to be one
of our challenges is how do we get the
people who then they're not academically
inclined, but they have this deep wisdom.
Okay.
Because the other thing that is the
benefit of people with a theological
degree is that it's harder to push
you around when you're sitting at
the staff team meeting and you are
as well trained as everybody else,
you know, just objectively speaking.
Um, and so I think that's, again, part
of, like, what, what have we said?
We've said pretty much in the Australian
church that to be a Christian leader,
you need a degree in theology.
Unless you're working with
children or young people.
You know, and, and that, I mean,
that was part of the original,
one of the big critiques that I
got in starting YouthWorks, this
idea that we're just dumbing down
children's and youth ministry.
And it's like, no, no, the plan
was always let's, let's create.
a better formal training and let's get
people into a youth ministry, children's
ministry world through diploma, advanced
diploma, that then would set them on a
lifelong trajectory of ministry formation
and training so that they would go on and
complete degrees at other colleges and Get
to that point of being as well trained as
every other church ministry staff leader.
Which is in one sense, that's, that
is the tick the box just to say, look,
you know, I'm can't mess with me.
But then the, the, the, the deeper
benefit of this is long term theological
reflection, able to bring that to bear
on the ministries that we're being
called to be involved in and lead.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah.
Um, I mean, one of my other, I guess,
um, ponderings or reflections on that
is, is the question of about, you know,
about that full time kind of nature.
Is, is, I'm interested
to hear your thoughts.
Is some of that, I guess the,
the, the, um, that the church has
signaled that this is of value
through, through, you know, employing
someone full time, not part time.
We're not throwing the dregs.
We're actually investing in
this, um, in a significant way.
Has that got something to do with it?
Do you
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, it does a lot.
It does a lot.
Um, a, uh, a part time youth minister, the
average staff size that has a part time
youth minister, um, is, uh, where is it?
A part time youth minister, the median
church staff size is five people.
No youth minister, the median
church staff size is two people.
So that's that idea that your youth.
Hey Al, have I just lost you for a bit?
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
Uh, I'm here.
Are you
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
yeah, no, you just froze for a bit.
Let me, um, let me just
start that bit again.
Uh, When you think about the staff
teams that youth ministers are working
on, if there's no youth minister,
that the median church staff size
with no youth minister is two people.
The, the median church staff size with a
part time youth minister is five people.
So that suggests that your part
time youth minister is your
third, fourth or fifth higher.
But your full time youth minister is
on a church size of six, of seven.
So your full time youth minister is your
Sixth or seventh higher, you know, now
that, that to me does suggest that our
priorities are not quite right, that
there's a, here's an area of ministry
where The statistics tell us 7 out of 10
of the children involved in the church
will leave by the time they turn 20.
We know that the adolescent years
are difficult for teenagers.
They're difficult for teenagers parents.
It's often teenagers that are
facing the really challenging
questions of cultural change.
And so, what do we do to engage them?
We find somebody part time
who's untrained to keep them
around for two and a half years.
And it's not going well
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: when you
put, yeah, when you put it like that,
it does seem, it does seem like it's,
it's, um, it's a, it's a funny way to go.
Um, I mean, I have to, I
have to ask the question.
I mean, you're advocating here
for, um, you know, full time, uh,
long term, well trained, you're
talking about a lot of money here.
Okay.
So, I mean, we've just had that, we've
had that question about when do you hire
the Um, the, the, the, the full timer,
um, but there's going to be churches
in, in the category that just, they
just don't have, you know, they're,
they're a single minister parish.
Um, the senior minister of that, of
that church, um, cannot raise the
funds to have a full time, um, youth
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Hmm.
Hmm.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
what, what do we do then?
You know, how, what argument do you make
or what do you do in that situation?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Well, one response that I've, I started
making facetiously, but I'm beginning
to be more convinced by, one suggestion
is, well, if you can only employ one
person full time, then why not employ
a full time youth minister and then
get a series of part time untrained
trainees to look after the adults?
And like, I suggest that and people,
people just sort of laugh as if, Oh, he's
obviously joking, but, but somebody did
challenge me and said, hang on, no, that's
a sensible suggestion that our adults
ought to be able to organize themselves,
look after themselves with somebody part
time, just sort of helping to coordinate
things, but let's find somebody to do
the thing that we find particularly
challenging and that is engaging with
teenagers and this emerging generation.
That, that's, that's worth at least
asking the question, why don't we do that?
But then,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
it's bump, what it's doing is it's
bumping up ministry two with four
young people up the rungs, isn't
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: yes,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: I mean,
maybe it's the senior pastor that, um, uh,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
the youth
ministry.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
right, either that or it's the
senior pastor that goes part time.
Like that's
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Sure.
Yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: of
your, your facetious suggestion.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so, uh, yes, for the senior
pastor to say, okay, my full time
job is to look after the teenagers,
um, that, that would be a bold senior
pastor that's going to do that.
Right.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: I know
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
What a great use.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
done that at least for a time
and I salute that, I salute that
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but our culture is against them.
So that's, that's, uh, it's a re
imagining of what the youth minister is.
That's really important.
Like, you've got to remember when I'm
talking about a full time youth minister,
I'm not saying employ somebody full
time to work out what they're going to
do for two hours on Friday night with
the seven young people that turn up.
Like that, that's not a full time job.
Nobody needs full time, nobody
needs a degree to do that.
But, if we're looking at somebody who
is a congregational leader, who is
trying to, or working with this, uh,
commitment to and expertise in how
to engage with young people, both in
and outside the church, and with a,
uh, a congregational leadership role
to energise the whole congregation.
Um, in ministries to young people with
young people and to promote ministries
by young people in ministry and mission.
Now we're thinking here is
a, here is something worthy
of a full time investment.
Al James here, Director
of House Conference.
I'm here with Mike Dicker, the
Principal of YouthWorks College,
also on the House Committee.
Hey, Mike.
Hi.
Uh, we want to let you know
about the topic for the, for
House Conference for 2025.
Mike, what's the topic?
Uh, it is the cost and the joy
of sacrifice, and we're thinking
about sacrificial discipleship
in children's and youth ministry.
We're really excited about it.
Mike, let us know, uh, what's one thing
that you're excited about for this topic.
I'm excited to think deeply about what
sacrifice means, and especially what does
it mean to be a living sacrifice as part
of our response to God and response to
the gospel, as we're calling young people
to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I want to think deeply about what that
call actually means for them, and what
they must sacrifice, and I guess also
the life that Jesus gives them that
enables them to sacrifice and trust,
I guess, in his sacrifice as well.
One of the things I'm really excited
about with House Conference and with this
topic is um, you know, I reckon it's a
pretty big ask to ask young people to
kind of live a life of sacrifice for the
sake of other people, especially in an
environment, in a world where Some of
the highest values are kind of individual
choice and expression of desires.
And we're asking young people to
kind of, you know, like curtail those
things for the sake of other people.
That's a huge ask.
So I want to, I guess I want to explore
how livable and how plausible is, is
it to ask young people to live a life
of sacrifice, to throw themselves in
with Jesus for the sake of others and
for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yeah, we'll see you there.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So, I
mean, that, that's an interesting,
, point to sort of pause on there.
, you know, you're saying that you
don't need a full timer to run a
two hour program on a Friday night.
Okay.
So that, that's, that's not what
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
that's all you're talking about,
that's the youth minister job.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah,
I mean that can be a voluntary job.
So , let's start to, unpack what,
what does the role look like then?
If it isn't just that two hours on a
Friday night, let's list out some of
the, some of the things that you're
putting in the kind of the bag or the
box that is a youth minister's role.
Yeah.
Okay.
, graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
there's the, the one to one or small
group mentoring of young people and,
and coordinating leaders to do that.
So equipping a team of leaders
to work with young people
and supporting them in that.
That obviously
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: going to be
team leading and training of a group of
people that are investing in young people.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's right.
Yep.
Now, then there's the, the investing
in and supporting parents and carers
as they do that work with young people
in their own homes, um, and helping
them work out the complexities
and the emotional rollercoasters
of being the parent of a teenager.
Um,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: solely
and squarely on the young person
themselves, but also the structures
around them, whether that be in the
church, but you're, you're focusing
at the moment on the parents.
So, they're going to be, you know,
the youth minister's role is going
to be to help equip and partner
with those parents to enable the
staffership to happen in the home.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's right, parents, carers, and
grandparents, and godparents, uncles and
aunts, all of that extended family stuff.
Then there's when you think about
then the structures that are around
young people, that includes school.
So developing a relationship
with the local school.
Now much easier in New South Wales
where you can still teach SRE.
And we pray that that opportunity remains,
but in much of the country, uh, we,
we don't have that privilege anymore.
But I think as a result, people
have assumed that the schools are
closed to us, which is not the case.
So opportunities for, , mentoring
of students coming in and just
getting alongside a school community
as an act of service, building
those community connections.
Think about schools, sporting clubs.
It's that chaplaincy ministry.
All of that, that sort of, um, interface
between church and, and community, that's
a key part of the youth minister's role.
And then I'd add, uh, preaching, leading
services and demonstrating how to preach
in a way that recognises that young people
are not only present and maybe overhearing
this sermon, but that young people are
part of our family and a significant,
they have a significant mission.
In their own right as teenagers,
that the rest of the congregation
can both learn from and, , support
and contribute to , and partner with.
So that, that role of the advocate
for young people in public preaching.
And then being involved in the
vision and mission of the church.
So, to be in the senior staff team.
Uh, and to sit there and as the
staff team work out what is our
preaching series going to be?
What is our mission strategy going to be?
All those things got to
involve young people.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: advocating
with the staff team for young people.
Um, but I guess, I guess sort of to
flip that around is also you're going
to be advocating for the broader
church, um, and bringing the broader
church to the young people when you're
with them as, with them as well.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, it's really interesting.
I mean, a lot of those things, I mean,
I see a fair, I mean, my, in my role as
a youth ministry advisor, I see a fair
few job descriptions and quite a lot
of what you've just said, um, often
appear in a two or three day a week.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: But
, what you're advocating for Graham
is, , giving people the time, the
headspace to do the job really well.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
And look, I speak to friends who
are in the church in Europe and they
say, I can't believe you're talking
about a full time youth minister.
Not even the senior minister is full time.
Everybody works part time in the church.
So what's going on for you?
And it's like, I get that there,
there will be times where.
Uh, it's the tent making part
time missionary thing that we're
going to need to just recognize.
We love the ministry more than we
love the paycheck, except that at the
moment in Australia, it seems like
other ministries are full time long
term and need training, except for
ministry with children or young people,
, that's does my head in.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: I'm sure
you would say as well, having that,
vision for full time, long term, , well
trained youth ministers as an ideal, Even
if it can't be reached in certain places
doesn't mean that the ideal doesn't exist.
So, you know, what, what would we give
for our brothers and sisters in Europe
to be able to have not just a full time.
, senior minister, but also a full time,
youth or children's or whatever the,
language that you're going to use there.
We'd love that as well.
You know, we don't diminish that vision.
We work towards it as much as we can.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's right.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: you
know, the, the restrictions are real.
Um, I've just mentioned children's
ministry as well, why the focus on youth?
Where does the full time
children's minister fit in?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
The same issues are there in
Children's Ministry, I suspect.
We haven't done the, The global data
analysis, but that same, the same
principle is there that a lot of these
jobs are part time and perhaps more,
um, I suspect, um, but I think, and
this is slightly controversial because
it's a, it's a highly gendered argument
that is that my observation is, That
the, where the part time youth minister
job is generally filled by a gregarious
20 year old who's happy to live in
somebody's garage for a few years.
The part time children's ministry job
is largely filled by a mother whose
children are now at high school,
whose husband works full time and
who owns a house nearby the church.
And, and I think it really
is gendered in that way.
So we've got a lot of, um, uh,
people who, uh, women who, uh, mature
Christians, they haven't done theological
education, but they've been reading
their Bible all their life and they
can organize things because they've
raised a family and, and they can do it.
Long term.
They, we know so many part time children's
ministers that are working full time.
We all know they work full time.
They're paid by the church part time and
they're paid by their husband part time.
That's, that's how they make it work.
And so you don't have the
same short term nature.
I, I think.
That's, that's sort of my hunch.
Now,
I get
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: so where
your, your argument is that in the
youth ministry world, part time leads
to short term leads to not well trained.
You're saying you reckon in the
children's ministry world, it's
not quite the same equation.
You know, it's, it's part time does
not necessarily lead to short term.
. And so I guess what you're saying is, in
your observations, in your analysis, that
the need just is greater, um, in the youth
ministry world at this point in time.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
So that's, that's my hunch.
Yes.
Now, the, the, the well trained
thing, I think we've got people who
are deeply Christian and reflective
can bring that sort of, you know,
biblically formed maturity to a role.
The theological reflection and the
time to really think through what are
the challenges facing children in a
rapidly changing, increasingly complex
world, that, that still is needed.
Um, And so look, that is my hunch,
uh, uh, I, I'd love to have longer
conversation with children's ministry
experts because I'm sure they will
push back on me the way that my
friends who are children's ministry
experts continually push back on me.
I think the other reason we're
starting with youth ministry is
this is, this is the, the, the world
that I've mainly been in and, uh,
this is where we want to start.
Um, We, we, we think the
same challenges are there.
And I think that greater investment in
full time children's ministry as well
is, is really important and valuable.
This is what we're doing now.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: So we're
talking about, um, children's ministry
and where that fits in, um, a couple of
different labels that, that, um, that fly
around as well, like a generations pastors
and someone that's overseeing all of the
You know, all of the ministry from zero
to 18 often, um, or an intergenerational
pastor, someone that's focusing on
bringing the generations together.
Um, what do you reckon about those ones?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
the intergenerational thing is a
really positive move in children's
and youth ministry world, recognizing
that where we're not about siloed
ministries, um, we're not about a Pied
Piper ministry of taking young people
off into the corner on their own.
And so, uh, that work at pulling all
the generations together is great.
There are two challenges that I see.
One is that the intergenerational
label on a role is often a way
of dressing up a downsizing.
You know, we used to have the children's
minister and a youth minister, and
then we had a young adults pastor,
but we decided to save money.
And actually, rather than saying
now we've only got part time of
these three things or we've got part
time children's minister, we've had
to ask the youth minister, let's
call them a generational pastor.
And then it's it looks better.
All right.
That's that's a cynical response.
OK, that's that's not great, obviously.
There's a bigger challenge in.
A lot of the intergenerational practices
and a lot of my friends who are in
intergenerational spaces are recognizing
that engaging adolescence is the
hardest part of this equation, as we've
worked at intergenerational practices.
So there's a research project that's,
um, that Intergenerate in the, in the U.
S.
Valley of Grissom is trying to get off
the ground of really asking this question,
what about teenagers in this space?
Because it's a.
It is a harder thing to do.
Mm.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
and of itself.
So you, you've got people that are
dyed in the wool, intergenerational,
you know, enthusiasts and academics.
They're saying the research
that they're doing is telling
them that, um, that actually
it's the teenagers that are
hardest to engage in the
intergenerational space anyway.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352: Yeah.
Yeah.
And like, what's really interesting,
you go back to the one eyed
Mickey Mouse metaphor, which was
first raised
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
explain that for us,
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, okay, so there was an article
written in Youth Worker Journal back
in the late 80s, Stuart Cummings Bond.
He talked about how the life of the
church is like this big circle of sort
of cradle to grave ministry, except
for the teenage years when you're spun
off into a little silo on its own.
So it's like you've got the big circle
of the church, then off on the side,
there's a little circle, which is sort
of like Mickey Mouse with one ear.
And that, that metaphor has been
picked up and people run with it and
they say, yeah, look, this is terrible
that young people are spun off.
They need to be part of the church
needs to be intergenerational and so on.
Which I sort of get, yes, we don't want
the silo, but what Stuart Cummings Bond
was actually arguing for in that article,
he was saying that young people have
This, uh, uh, time in youth ministry,
which is really specific and focused
and really directed and lots of pastoral
care, lots of intentionality, but they
end youth ministry and they come back
into the church and the church doesn't
do any of the intentional discipling that
they've experienced in youth ministry.
The church just wants to know if you're
going to fill the morning tea roster.
And so the critique was
really coming, not just.
Not, not saying we shouldn't do
this youth ministry on its own,
but what we've learned in youth
ministry needs to continue in the
life of the whole church as young
people become young adults and so on.
And so I just wonder whether there
is something about the teenage
years, certainly in our culture,
whether biologically, um, and
historically as well as a moot point.
But there's certainly something about
those teenage years that means they do
bond with one another in particular.
They do have particular challenges.
They do have a particular
sort of egocentric world.
So maybe there is something
really appropriate about some age
specific ministry with teenagers.
With a leadership team that is not all
the 20 year old extroverts, but includes
your 20 year old extroverts and your
30 year old introverts and your 60 year
old seasoned, um, uh, elder, you know,
um, but there is that ministry that is
specific to them that then enables them
to then be, uh, uh, uh, more connected
with the life of the church so they
would continue in the life of the church
after their teenage years are done.
That, that I think is a way
of thinking about young people
intergenerational ministry.
But notice this is a, this is a
deeply theological question and
it's a practical question, uh, how
to bridge those two things that
requires deep theological reflection.
This requires a community of people
that have tried different things.
We're going to be able to be better
placed to come up with an answer
for these sorts of questions.
If we've got this community of long
term committed leaders that can really
work together, put their heads together
and their, their practice together
to come up with something grand.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Yeah,
I mean, it almost sounds Graham, like
you're saying that this is a discipline
that we need to be thinking through, you
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
yeah, yeah.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: um,
pastoral ministry, ministry to other age
groups, um, uh, and to, to the, to the,
the church generally, um, that actually
we need to have that reflection, that,
um, that thinking about practice, the
theological thought, um, the engagement
with community of the trial and error.
Um, as a discipline in, um,
ministry to young people as well.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
That's been happening and it
just needs to continue, right?
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
absolutely, yeah.
Graham, um, uh, it's fascinating to talk
with you about all this, this stuff.
I know that one of your, one of your
projects at the moment, one of the
hats that we talked about earlier
is, um, Youth Ministry Futures,
YMF.
Um, what is it?
What's it aiming to do?
Um, what's the deal?
Tell us about it.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
Yeah, well, essentially is trying
to reverse this systemic immaturity.
So go from, uh, a pattern of Part
time, short term, untrained youth
ministry leadership to really promote
the value of full time, long term,
well formed youth ministry leaders.
And so our vision is that over the next 25
years we would see across the Australian
church just an increase in the number
of people that are taking those roles.
So partly it's a work of imagination,
re imagination, trying to just keep
pushing the church to think differently
about ministry with young people.
But at the heart of, of the idea of this,
um, this project to try to bring some
kind of systemic change is the idea of
trying to make some money available that
would help us turn part time roles into
full time roles, to take short term roles
and to sustain them into the long term.
And so we're, we're, uh, we've launched
a thing called the Youth Ministry
Futures Fellowship, which is a, uh,
essentially a new mission agency for
local church youth ministry in Australia.
Like we want to be able to do
for local church youth ministry
what CMS and pioneers do for
cross cultural mission overseas.
So we know that there are, we know
that there are churches where It would
be, it would be great for them to have
a full time youth minister in place
for the next six years to, to build,
to grow a ministry among teenagers.
Uh, we know that there are, there
are people who are working part time
in youth ministry who would love to
do this for the rest of their days.
Uh, but the, the resources just
aren't available to do that.
So why don't we grab
a community of people?
If a hundred of us got together and,
and gave some money, we could support
somebody to be full time, turn a part
time job into a full time one and walk
with these people over the next six years.
And I'm, I'm sure that we would see better
outcomes, uh, not just giving money away.
Supporting then these cohorts of leaders
to, uh, encourage one another to pursue
good youth ministry design, to, to, to
pursue mission innovation together, to
learn together, all that sort of thing.
So that's, that's, uh, sort of the vision.
Um, and, uh, we reckon might
as well give it a shot.
You know, like we, we we're not
thinking this is gonna be, every
church in Australia is gonna have this.
Because that's probably unrealistic.
But we reckon that at least if a
few had this, it would be better.
And I reckon if we could demonstrate
that with a few, this is better, and
you get better outcomes in general, then
maybe that would shift a whole bunch of
other churches to change their Ministry
priorities, you know, and I think, Oh,
okay, maybe, maybe rather than making
the youth minister, the seventh employee,
maybe that would have been better to
do that as a second employee or a third
employee, um, and see better outcomes for
young people and for young people as they
grow into young adulthood and begin to
change the face of the church and change
the face of the nation and the world.
All for the glory of Jesus, by his
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417: Absolutely.
Um, Graham, if people are interested in
YMF, how do they find out about that?
How do they get in touch?
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
ymfutures.
com.
au Uh, all the details will
be there on our website.
Um, we're at the moment we're, uh,
running a bunch of, a bunch of things
that are trying to just gather that,
uh, group of youth ministry leaders,
those who are thinking, long term, full
time, fully trained type youth ministry.
So I've got a few events on
and some little cohorts that
are gathering people together.
Um, We're, we're calling
people to pray with us.
So last year we had an inaugural
month of prayer for youth ministry
through the month of November.
We're hoping to do the same
thing this year, God willing.
And then, uh, we're, we're calling
people to join the fellowship and, you
know, gradually as we come together,
let's start, um, sharing our resources
as we, uh, uh, find people that we can
support the way that any mission agency
would support, uh, uh, ministry leaders.
And as we, you know, we pray,
we care, we give, we go.
That's stealing straight from CMS,
but the same principles apply.
al-james_2_02-07-2025_140417:
Graham, it's been great to have you
on the Effective Ministry Podcast.
graham-stanton_1_02-07-2025_140352:
I've really appreciated it, Al.
You've just, uh, let me
ride all my hobby horses.
It's been great fun.