Dan Lizette of The Podcast Digest joins the conversation about podcast culture.

Show Notes

Dan Lizette of The Podcast Digest joins the conversation about podcast culture.

Mark shares concerns about a previous recommendation, and reveals his thoughts on Brendan’s latest suggestion, which Dan chimes in about after his recent interview with Manoush Zomorodi and Jen Poyant.

Brendan suggests Mark try a podcast he’s tried before… The Incomparable Game Show. But maybe he’ll like it more this time. Recommended episodes:

Text adventure:
Family Feud style:
Dan shares a recommendation as well: Sleepover by CBC.

Podcast discovery is the big topic of the day, of every day really, if you think about it, and the group discusses IsItGood, a new startup with initial funding to give algorithmic recommendations, and Podchaser just finished their seed funding round. More new, well-rated podcasts are coming to your ears soon.

Dan shares his story about booking great guests on podcasts, and provides some helpful tips for aspiring podcasters.

Plus, what do we think about podcasts about podcasts?

Subscribe to Dan’s show to hear Dan interview the creators of In the Dark, right as the finale of season two comes out.


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Join Brendan Hutchins 🙈 and Mark Steadman 🧔🏻 as they digest the very latest in podcast culture.

[00:00:00] Brendan: I just decided that I needed to hone back on a lot of the podcasts I listened to, uh, due to. Overwhelm and geopolitics and stresses like that. I, um, I've, I've just unsubscribed from 27 of my feeds, but don't fear. I still have 130, so some podcasts that I'm listening to. So.

[00:00:29] Dan: Oh,

[00:00:33] Brendan: Hey Mark Steadman of the Podiant podcast hosting service.

[00:00:36] Mark: Hey, Brendan Hutchins of the podcast advocate network.

[00:00:39] Brendan: And welcome Dan Lizette of the podcast digest.

[00:00:42] Dan: Hello gentlemen.

[00:00:43] Brendan: Thanks for joining us.

[00:00:44] Dan: Thanks for having me.

[00:00:44] Mark: So, uh, Brendan. You, you, you gave me a recommendation of a show. I know, two weeks ago, I have some concerns about what you're about to say.

[00:00:53] And, and, and, and now it's gone. What did you do, Brendan? What did you do? It doesn't have to tell you about a fun thing. I like, and now you broach it. Um, so for those don't know, uh, I think, uh, only a couple of days ago, Uh, there was a post going up on the Patrion blog for the podcast. We have concerns telling the listeners and patrons, we're not doing the show anymore.

[00:01:16] We're going to finish it at the end of the month. So, uh, thanks

[00:01:19] Brendan: a lot of

[00:01:19] Mark: support by yeah, I had, I had four years or whatever it was to, to get into the show and, uh, I've got there in the last, um, 10 weeks. So.

[00:01:29] Brendan: At least this is a whole big back catalog of really awesome shows that you can

[00:01:33] Mark: go check out. Yes, absolutely.

[00:01:35] Uh, and there a very good one today about eating a foot and

[00:01:39] Brendan: a show like this ending at a point where you just got into it reminds me of an item that is always on my podcast app wishlist. Whenever I, cause I, I test for like overcast and banter and a couple others. And uh, I'm always telling them, like, I want to be able to subscribe to a podcast.

[00:01:58] That's either already finished or has a big back catalog where I can just say, you know, like a post subscribe, uh, start from episode one. I choose my rate that it automatically download. So like maybe one a day or two a week or whatever, so that I can

[00:02:12] Mark: catch up. When you were so far through the previous episode or something, it can start the next one.

[00:02:17] Brendan: I want that so bad. It'd be, it'd be so easy, so much easier than like trying to remember where you left off. Or even if it shows a little plate icon, you have to go find it, you know, search, scroll down through, and cause you don't want to just download all of them because then you have 150 to, you know, podcasts and, you know, steeping up storage on your phone or whatever. So

[00:02:34] Mark: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, from, so from one, uh, podcast that's tending to one that's kind of just beginning, uh, was, uh, last week was your recommendation of. Yeah. Yeah. So you listened to that this week. What did you think? I loved it. I was, um, I mean, you, you were absolutely right. Like, I, I was, I was in there like swimwear, um, right from the beginning and uh, I mean, God, they sweat, they got, they got mouths like Dockers.

[00:02:57] Um, that was like shit workers, um, like, like, like Glaswegian welders. Um, but it's brilliant. Uh it's it's it's it's really great. Yeah. And, uh, I, you know, I'm fascinated by the story. I, I'm lucky in that, you know, a bit of the work I've done before means that I have a bit of an understanding. Uh, we are all now poisoned, um, by, by, uh, guitar man, um, who I think, oh yes.

[00:03:23] I think they forgot to credit and then just quickly tacked on someone, recording it on their phone at the end, but by the way, that was Martin Austwick, whereas it like seasoned podcast listeners are like, isn't that Martin Austwick doing a big Bitcoin is blockchains baby

[00:03:41] Very, very, very good listen. And, and, uh, I was moved to contact them and stuff and, and, uh, got an email back from, uh, I can't remember if it was from both of them or just from Manoush, but, uh, it was, it was lovely. So yeah, really, really, really cool. And a great recommendation.

[00:03:54] Brendan: I'm so glad that you'd like to, um, Dan, you just had a wonderful interview on the podcast digest with minutia.

[00:04:00] Dan: Really enjoyed that. Yes. Thank you. That was a, uh, it was a great conversation. I liked you guys also loved the first couple of episodes as ex and I had actually talked with minutia a long time ago. She was one of my early guests in the podcast digest and I of course, talked to her right after new tech city converted over to note to self.

[00:04:19] And I sort of talked to her about that and right at the beginning of, of really her working with gen point, uh, and what they did with, uh, uh, note to self. And then so two. Here about what happened with zigzag and to be able to sit down with both of them, minutia had to leave a little early, but, uh, to really get into the details of kind of, uh, you know, what they were thinking and what the, uh, behind the scenes story was of the show was, uh, was a great experience.

[00:04:43] I hope folks enjoyed that conversation.

[00:04:45] Mark: Great. So, uh, have you got a future recommendation for me for, uh, for this week? First

[00:04:50] Brendan: question is I know you're very familiar with the incomparable. Um, world of podcasts, would you say that's correct.

[00:04:59] Mark: Um, I'm aware that they exist. Um, I was a very, very late comer. Um, I actually don't regularly, so I have the, uh, Castro triage system.

[00:05:08] Yes. Um, I subscribed to the incomparable, but it doesn't go into my play queue. It goes in my inbox so that I can selectively choose an episode to see if I want to check it out. That makes sense. Which is a system I really, really like. And so, uh, it's it's in there because I was listened to for a while.

[00:05:26] And then there was a game show thing that they were doing. But then I, I discovered that they don't do the same game show every week. Um, but they did one that was like a panel show. And that was great inconceivable, inconceivable. That sounds, that sounds right. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yep. Uh, and it was

[00:05:41] Brendan: great. The cool thing about the incomparable game show is like you said, there's a whole bunch of stuff.

[00:05:46] Uh, different types of games that they play in the feed. And so whenever it comes up, you really it's a grab bag. You really don't know what you're thinking. Um, sometimes it's, uh, inconceivable or other reoccurring, either panel shows or game shows, quiz shows that they do. Um, and like one of the incomparable hosts, you know, decides, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll take this week and I'll host it.

[00:06:09] And then they, they bring along a bunch of other, um, Friends of the network to come and play. And it is just absolutely hilarious to me. And so I'm very curious to see if you'll enjoy it.

[00:06:20] Mark: Yeah. Uh, well, yes, I will. I'll, I'll do a proper, um, a proper dive into it rather than a, it it's a little bit like the, we have concise things, you know, I'm aware of what it is.

[00:06:29] Um, and so I will, uh, I will, I will endeavor to give it a bit more of a. I a try and I think, uh, I think when I shifted over to Casto, I think I got rid of the game show from my list, so I'll let it back in. Um, and, uh, I'll give some episodes ago because, uh, what you're describing sounds very fun. Um, so yeah, very good.

[00:06:51] We should probably she'll probably bring down

[00:06:53] Dan: in, uh, so this one's, um, you may have heard of it. It may have not, it is a previous guest of mine. I almost always pick a previous guest when somebody asks me for a show and it's not necessarily to promote my own thing, but it's just because what I do with my show is I reach out and try to talk to people whom shows I really love.

[00:07:08] So if anyone ever wants to know all the shows that I love, just look at my back catalog. That's all of them. So one of them that I'm thinking about just, I was just reminded of yesterday. They put a little teaser in that I believe this week. Yeah, they're coming back. A new season and I'm super excited because I think this is one of the most unique shows that you can ever find to listen to.

[00:07:26] And that's from the CBC shows called sleepover, uh, with, uh, , uh, is the host and sleepover does something that no other show that I've ever heard of does. And, uh, I believe they're actually going to be picked up on TV this year, from what I understand from the teaser. So they take three strings. Um, and everybody has to have a problem that they need to address, um, that they want help with effectively.

[00:07:54] And they have to have an item. That means something to them that relates to the problem. They bring the problem with their item and they all spend 24 hours overnight in a hotel room. And what. Are the recordings of that experience. And these are usually three people from completely different backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, personal experiences, political views, races, ages, whatever.

[00:08:19] And what you've heard. I think they've had three seasons so far. I believe this is season four coming up. What we have heard so far in the show is just some amazing human connection. What the power of conversation is. The way these people can take somebody they've never met before. And quite frankly, probably never.

[00:08:37] Would've spoken to before. And by the end of this, you hear them walking out of this hotel or this cat they've done cabins, hotels, all type of things. You hear this amazing connection between multiple people and. Always solving problems per se in 24 hours, but that, you know, their goal is to talk about it.

[00:08:55] And I've just been blown away at some of the interpersonal interaction. Sometimes you hear them very unwilling to sort of, um, you know, connect at the beginning. And by the end you've seen a completely different side of. It's a great show. It's a unique kind of study in the human condition and it's, it's edited phenomenally.

[00:09:15] It tells a story. And every experience that I just described actually has three episodes. Ah, nice. So they focus an episode on each of the three people, usually about 25 to 30 minutes. So they tell the story and experience from all three of the perspectives. Uh, it's a great show. If anybody hasn't heard of it, I just think it's so unique and so different.

[00:09:34] And it's always one of my favorite shows when

[00:09:35] Mark: the traps. Yeah. I'm looking forward to checking that out.

[00:09:40] Brendan: Speaking of recommendations, and trying to find like the best next, uh, favorite podcast and everything. There's a couple of different podcast apps that are coming around. I'm trying to. Trying to do just that, but bays in the algorithm.

[00:09:54] Yeah. It looks like the Baltimore business journal just came out with a, a profile on a new app that is trying to be the rotten tomatoes for podcasts.

[00:10:03] Mark: Yes. Uh, it's called, is it good? Uh, and, and, uh, this doesn't seem to be a huge amount of information yet, but it does sound like an interesting proposition, um, to just try and I guess really just to answer that crucial question of, is it worth it?

[00:10:21] Um, and they, yeah, they've, they've just got themselves a, a boatload of investment, a great big novelty check. And, uh, so yeah, there's that they're obviously going to be, uh, in development, the, the app looks, uh, it looks nice and clean. Um, it's an iOS app, uh, for the moment and it will be interesting to see how that progresses and, and how they're able to, um, or how they're planning to tackle.

[00:10:46] Particular

[00:10:46] Brendan: problem. Yeah, for sure. It looks like they're gonna do sort of an algorithm based recommendation engine. So, uh, from what I was reading, it, it looks like they're gonna look through what you're listening to and use that to, to base their recommendations off of, instead of something like a pod chaser where it's you're you're rating and reviewing things, and it goes into a.

[00:11:12] Um, top list. And then you can just look through what the top list. Yes.

[00:11:16] Dan: This has obviously been a long time conversation in the podcasting space. I know I've had it time and time again with folks, right discovery. This is all everybody's trying to solve the discovery problem. What was the latest news in the iTunes catalog?

[00:11:29] A couple of weeks ago? Was it 550,000 shows? Something like that? iTunes is up too. It's an insane. Of of shows and as a small independent podcast myself, I've definitely faced that battle of discovery. As I know, probably you guys have many folks have, and so everyone's trying different ways to kind of come at this problem.

[00:11:47] And I'm looking at that, you know, the phrase, rotten tomatoes for podcasts. So I'm envisioning this idea of scrolling through. Potentially inter interesting shows that an algorithm has presented to me and I'm seeing a percentage fresh or a rotten score on that show. Uh, and it kind of looks like it's trying to tackle one problem, mention iOS, right in apps and iOS today, you occasionally get the pop-up to rate an app and you can very easily do now.

[00:12:13] Just pop the stars and you're good to go. You don't even. The half to hop over to the app store in this, that, and the other. I wonder if, and when Apple's going to drop that into the podcast app, where you can do something very similar to a score or a show because it has popped up, uh, visually into it. But then again, the question becomes how many people are staring at their phone screen while listening to a podcast in the first place.

[00:12:36] So it makes you wonder that. You know how this particular product or this particular approach would sort of solve that same issue, right? It's all based on crowdsourcing and recommendations and people's score and evaluations and how they're going to get that participation from listeners to score that.

[00:12:52] The other thing I wonder about all the time is I wonder about star ratings or review scores and things of that nature, because historically the only people who usually are going to rate it are. Either the super fans or the super critical, and I don't know, as a listener, who's not a listener to a show.

[00:13:10] If I particularly value either one of those perspectives. You know what I mean? If you absolutely love it because the host is your brothers cousins, second uncle's roommate or something. And that's why you're listening. I don't know that. Your opinion. And if you've decided to unsubscribe and hate rate a show before you left it, I don't know if I count your opinion either.

[00:13:29] So what am I really getting with a score or star rating? Uh, not to mention of those 550,540,000 of them are small, independent, independent folks doing the best they can to put out something and they may not have the resources or the revenue behind things like sound quality and professional editing and so on and so forth.

[00:13:48] And so obviously, uh, you know, if you're going to gauge on that type of thing, Great either. So I think there's a whole ton of questions and I think all those questions and probably a bunch more is why this problem hasn't been solved

[00:13:58] Brendan: yet. Uh, so along the same lines of, um, the let's see, uh, is it good getting that seed funding for their, um, development punches to just recently closed their seed rounding as well?

[00:14:11] Um, they, uh, recently posted to their blog about, um, where that money is going to going, what they're going to be doing next. And, um, It's pretty, pretty exciting. They just, um, added me into their test group for, uh, lists feature where, um, you can make custom lists and add little add sections and add, um, comments to each podcast that you add to a list and stuff, and they're going to make it very shareable.

[00:14:36] And, um, one of the things I love about pawn chaser, not only that they keep adding new features and keep trying to innovate and grow is that they, um, it, it feels like such an independent. Like it, like, it's not a silo, like apple podcasts or, or overcast or Castro, where if you share a link, you know, just goes to that specific app.

[00:14:58] Whereas with pod chaser, it's, it's universal. They have all of the different links there and it's, it feels like. Easy to share

[00:15:09] Mark: So, Dan, uh, as the, as the man behind a podcast digest, one of the first things that I thought that we should talk about when, uh, when Brendan and I worked with putting this particular show together, is this, um, thing of, of booking guests and trying to book really good guests. Um, and. I'd like to know what your thoughts are, because I think it's something that can really help a burgeoning podcast as, as I'm sure you can imagine, you know, having a, having a reasonably high profile guest, uh, is, is very helpful, um, or can be, doesn't always work out that way.

[00:15:44] Um, and so I, I thought we could possibly start off by, uh, seeing if you've got any. Broad tips to share on guest booking because you've had some, uh, you've had some very good guests on your show. It's

[00:15:58] Dan: really been the most fortunate thing for me that I've been able to talk to. Some of the people I've talked to, uh, this September will be four years that I've done the podcast digest.

[00:16:07] Although. Imaginations much of the second half of 17 was kind of often I did reruns and I tried a business and it was difficult and all this other stuff, but I'm kind of back to full force now, but, um, yeah, for, uh, just shy of three years for like two years and 10 months, I released a show every single week.

[00:16:26] Uh, and that was with, uh, primarily, uh, booking interviews. Um, and I will say that it is probably the hardest thing. Um, that I didn't necessarily anticipate when I started the show back in 2014, uh, you know, booking a, what you would consider to be a solid guests and interesting guests with an, with hopefully an interesting story to tell every single week, uh, consecutively was always the hardest part of running this show.

[00:16:54] You have a ton of different challenges and just to run down a handful of them, uh, is how do you reach out to them via reach out to them via email via, um, via social media? Is that Twitter is that Facebook, is that Instagram? Who do you reach out to? I mean, some of the guests that I've had a part of large collectives or networks.

[00:17:15] I don't even know sometimes how to find an email directly for the host, uh, you know, or, or they, you know, they don't follow me on Twitter or their DMS aren't open. So how do I even get in touch with this person? Um, and then let's say you do make touch. Uh, they've got to figure out who you are. Yeah. Like, why do I need to listen to you?

[00:17:35] Why are you bothering me your like 852 other requests I've gotten just like this this week. So why should I listen to your request? And you know, not these others or instead of others. Uh, and then even if you make it through that hurdle, you get the challenge of scheduling, um, which is aligning the calendars to a time that they can actually do, uh, and a time that you can.

[00:18:00] So for the longest time I was, I had a full-time day job and I would literally just do the evenings. Well, if you're reaching out to large, big name guests, this may be part of their job and they're looking to talk during regular hours. And if you're a part-time hobbyists like myself, you can't talk during regular hours, or at least it's much more difficult.

[00:18:20] I don't know. And especially during 2015 and 2016, I probably took anywhere from. To 10 vacation days, uh, to make some of those interviews work from my day job. Um, so I would say in terms of scheduling, sometimes you may have to put forward a little bit more than maybe you want to, uh, to be able to make that calendar work.

[00:18:40] Um, and in terms of access, that is the hardest thing. I still get questions nowadays. Like how did you get that guest? How did that happen in this, that, and the other? I'll tell you what it really is. Um, relentless. Uh, is really what it is. Uh, I use email primarily, and what I did in the early days was I was very, very fortunate.

[00:19:00] I think my first kind of name guests, and this was like very early on, uh, I talked to Phoebe judge from criminal, um, and it was. Awesome. She was so kind and she was literally kind of running between appointments. She didn't even know who I was or what my show was when we hopped online. She just was willing to give the small independent person with almost no back catalog a chance, but after we talked and it was terrible, I don't, I look back at the interview now and I did not do a good job.

[00:19:28] I was nervous. It didn't work well, but what did come from that? I then I think this is one of the keys to kind of getting a, a guest booking train rolling was I then parlayed her appearance into qualification for further inquiries. So after I had Phoebe judge on my show, my email inquiry out to folks now included her as a previous guest.

[00:19:54] Uh, and then, so that helps bring some type of validity to your inquiry. And then from there it kind of kept rolling and. Catalog got bigger. And my roster of previous guests got bigger. I was able then to then tailor those guests. So I know you guys are tech guys, so am I, um, I'm a huge tech fan of a lot of, you know, I'm mostly on, I'm an apple guy.

[00:20:16] Um, W after I'd got in somebody like Mike Hurley to join me from relay FM. Well, that obviously helps me talk to Jason Snell, which helped me talk to John Syracuse, which helped me talk to Jim Dalrymple, which helped me talk to Casey lists and so on and so forth. And so as you have one. And I want to point out that this previous guest, you know, and so that's kind of a big tool that I've used.

[00:20:42] And from there, it's just that relentless energy it's that kind of keep checking, go back. Um, other be a lot of non-responsive, there'll be held a lot of not availables, um, you know, and be willing to maybe even talk to a producer instead of the host, um, because even that can help build that credibility.

[00:20:58] So those are some of the things that. I'm open for other questions.

[00:21:03] Have

[00:21:03] Brendan: either of you heard or seen the infographic called the podcast universe?

[00:21:09] Mark: Yes we are. Yes, yes, no.

[00:21:13] Brendan: Um, yeah, so it, it was a while back and I'm trying to, it's something like muffin top is the artist I'm trying to, I'm struggling to find it, but I'll see if I can put it in the show notes.

[00:21:23] Um, this, this wonderful graphic artists, uh, put together a infographic of. Probably about 150 200, um, different podcast cover art. Um, Images on a giant infographic with little universes that kind of spread out and then we'll have, it'll have like the hosts in the middle. So like Leo deport, um, uh, Scott Aquaman, Dan Benjamin, uh, and, and, uh, my currently and that kind of stuff.

[00:21:53] And then there'll be in there different there'll be in the Twitter universe and the, and the five-by-five universe and the relay FM universe. And they're all kind of connected and the in, you know, so this it's not guest appearances, but it's, it's when a person is hosting or co-hosting. And so they'll, there'll be a bunch of different crossover, like with, um, with Tom Merritt and Leo, the port have that connection.

[00:22:13] And then that goes over to Brian Brushwood and then it goes over to Justin, Robert Young and. And, um, what you were saying, Dan, just kind of reminded me of that and how, you know, person is connected to person, this connected person. Then you can build up that list of people that you've kind of connected with just by kind of having that familiarity with the, with the, the other people that they're familiar with.

[00:22:35] And then also, like you were saying, like building up that cloud of having, uh, a decent, you know, back catalog of guests can give you that clout to be able to. To find new guests. That's, that's pretty inspiring for people who are just getting into, starting to talk to guests and stuff. Um, you know, for me, like this is my first, um, guests interview show.

[00:22:58] Most of my stuff has, it's usually been like solo or just with a friend. And, uh, it's, it's cool to be able to talk to new people and get their perspectives and everything. And knowing that, like my interactions with people, and I think mark just kind of reiterated this on, on Twitter the other day or less.

[00:23:17] Uh, being able to approach people both at the, at the high end and low end of the spectrum in terms of popularity and notoriety, it has been fascinating to see how amiable or you just had this problem last week. Um, amenable, uh, amenable. Is that the word? Okay. Uh, I think that might be, yeah. Yeah, they are.

[00:23:40] And, and being able to just connect with. Even a high profile and low profit profile, uh, podcasters it's, it's a, it's an amazingly friendly and wonderful community and, and everybody just wants to kind of get on and share and talk. With everybody else. So it's, it's really wonderful.

[00:23:59] Dan: And part of that is, um, make sure that your conversation with that.

[00:24:03] If, if you, uh, get a white whale or you, you hook somebody that you never thought you would, uh, preparation, super important, making sure that your conversation is going to be unique. Uh, these people, especially, you know, towards that upper echelon heavy. Literally hundreds of interviews in their careers. Uh, and if you can stand out in any way, shape or form, uh, that will mean a huge difference.

[00:24:30] I remember I, I tell this story and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I were to share this, but when I interviewed my curly, one of the reasons I remember this so often was we finished our interview. And right after I stopped recording, but he hadn't. And I only know that because when he shared his file with me, this was on there.

[00:24:47] He made a comment, something to the effect of that was one of the most interesting interviews I've ever given. You're really good at this. Thanks so much. Something to that effect. That's awesome. Yeah. And it was like, it blew my mind. It was still in the fairly early days. I think it was somewhere around episode 45 or something like that.

[00:25:05] And it made me realize that, you know, if you make this a really interesting experience for them, then you're going to stand out. You're going to stick in their mind. And guess what? When. If they get approached by another person that you are inquiring with, Hey, I see you did this. How was that? They're going to say no, no, no.

[00:25:22] That was great. You should definitely do that. And it makes your job so much

[00:25:25] Brendan: easier. That is fantastic advice and something that I think that mark and I should really hold on to with the upcoming guests. Yes.

[00:25:33] Mark: I've talked before about a show. I did call the 2014 show. I think I've mentioned it last week and how the guest treadmill kind of drove me a bit mental and it's, it's a difficulty that I had with the show last week.

[00:25:45] Um, and it, it, sorry, last year. Um, and it can be, it can be so hard. Um, and, and. One of the things that I figured out, the, the show that I was doing last year kind of wanted it to be face to face. So it was doubly hard to try and find people to, uh, to get in at a specific time. But when I was, um, emailing people for, uh, the 2014 show, I found that as long as I gave them, Runway enough lead time.

[00:26:12] Um, then the, it is surprising how many people actually do say yes. And so the thing that I think Brendan was alluding to is a little thread that I posted last week about, uh, discussions that I've had, um, with people over email or usually, uh, people at sort of different levels of, um, busy-ness or, uh, levels in their career or whatever.

[00:26:36] Um, I tended to find that the people I, I thought would possibly reply the least or, uh, the, the people, uh, I expected to not reply, actually tended to and tend to, to reply quite helpfully. Um, and so I, you know, I got some sort of mini celebrities, uh, people who've been on the actual radio and then I spoke to Helen's Altima and she was, uh, very gracious and we were going to hook something up and then we didn't, I actually canceled on her in the end.

[00:27:05] Um, It was, you know, it was, it was, it was a great shame, but these things happen. Um, but you know, it, it was people like that, that I found were actually amenable to doing this. And, and often I think it's very easy for us to get into this trap of, oh, that they're not going to say no. Right. So th th they're not going to say yes, like that.

[00:27:22] They're not the kind of person they're too busy. I'm, uh, I'm a minnow, they're a whale, um, that they're just not going to apply. And, and honestly, it, it takes so little to actually give it a. Um, and, um, one of the things that I think I found helpful is when I was emailing someone before and they sort of complimented me on this.

[00:27:39] I gave two versions of the same email in the same email. Um, and so I did hello person, TLDR. I'd love you to be on my show. Uh, it's about this. Uh, let me know if you fancy it and then the longer version so that they knew straight away what this was going to be about. And if they want it to say no straight away, they knew, and they didn't feel pressured to have to read the whole thing and then just ignore it because I would much, rather someone said.

[00:28:04] Then ignore the email. Yep. And so it kind of gave people the option when, you know, so it would be very, very short tail there. I do a show every Monday it's called the 2014 show. Uh, I'd love you to come on and we can maybe talk about this. Um, and then in, you know, I would actually say in longer form, the 2014 show was a show about this.

[00:28:20] And now I get guests on to talk about this and it will be really helpful. I don't have that many listeners, but it would be really fun if you bloodied loaded by it and you do all that stuff. And, um, I tended to find that the uptake was a lot higher than I was. Necessarily have expected. And one of the

[00:28:35] Dan: things that I've found before, and this may be your transition here, Brendan, is that, uh, you know, if a lot of the people I've talked to aren't on shows where they get to talk about how something's made, what their experience was and doing it the behind the scenes story.

[00:28:51] And so often I hear from people at the end of the interview, No, it was great to talk about that. We never get to talk about the team who makes the show, or we never get to really go in deep on the process. And we love telling about that. And so that ends up being something that, again, kind of back to my point before, where if you have a different approach and a conversation that engages them and they like it, they're going to enjoy the experience.

[00:29:13] And I think a lot of them have maybe done some of those in the past and are looking for that kind of conversation when they start. With you. And if you can deliver on that hope or expectation, it's going to be a lot better because while we all live in a world, that's, you know, podcasts about podcasts, you know, they don't, and they get to have a conversation that they don't often have.

[00:29:33] Yeah. It's awesome.

[00:29:34] Brendan: To be able to talk about the inner workings of the thing that you're creating, it's really quite meta that way. Um, so yeah, the podcast digest, you're able to interview. A bunch of people about their podcasts. So it's a podcast about podcasts. We make a podcast about podcasts. That's talking about like how the culture affects, um, affects what we're doing and how, how different things relate to others.

[00:29:59] And there's a ton of other different podcasts about podcasts. I don't know if either of you listened to many, but I listened to about 15 or 20 and some of them are about like what podcasts to listen to some about like how, how they are made and how to make them better. And I was just wondering, like, what do we think about podcast?

[00:30:18] I mean, obviously we're a fan of podcasts about podcasts because we both, we all make them. Um, but do we, do we listen to other podcasts about podcasts and, uh, is it, is it just for people who are. Super into podcasts that they would want to listen to something like that. Or like, are we, are we only speaking to the other super podcast fans up there?

[00:30:39] We think that there is a wider audience for something like this. That's talking about the industry

[00:30:45] Mark: really to, uh, to your latter point. I was, I still am I w well, I was, I was a patron of a podcast called the comedian's comedian, and I'm no longer a patron, but I listened. I still listen to the show and that is, it's not particularly funny.

[00:31:01] Um, it's not a comedy podcast. It is a podcast about comedy. Um, I listened to that before I got into doing improv and I had no interest in being a comedian. I still have no interest in being a comedian, but I I'm interested in the process. And I'm interested in hearing funny people talk because funny people tend to be very smart people and, or very funny, people tend to be very smart people.

[00:31:24] And it's interesting to listen to smart people being interesting and smart, but, but you know that there is more sort of technical information that sometimes, uh, or technical discussions that sometimes go into. I'm not privy to, but it's still, it's still interesting. And so I think there is a place for certain types of shows, um, for people who are just interested in the medium, uh, who don't necessarily want to make them, I mean, a show like ours, I think has found its feet.

[00:31:51] And I think the way you describe it, which which only started coming up about a few weeks into the run, um, This is a podcast about podcast culture. And I like that as a description because we don't just talk about specific shows. We talk about what it means to be a podcaster or a super listener, or, you know, these, these sorts of things.

[00:32:10] And I think that that enables us to, to, to cover a wide topic, but, but also sometimes go deep into certain things. And if that interests you, then you know, we're here for you. And then I think, you know, shows like Dan's, I think a really good. Deep dives into what makes those specific creators able to do what they do.

[00:32:30] And, um, you know, that again, for those kinds of people who are, who are really interested, whether they want to make their own shows and make them better, or they just like, they just are interested in the medium, then I think there's absolutely value for that as

[00:32:43] Dan: well. Yeah. And I would, I would definitely agree with all that.

[00:32:47] Uh, and back to the original question on, you know, what do we think about them? Is this for super fans? Only? I think my initial answer is I hope not as, as the host of one of those ships, uh, I hope that's not true. And I think it depends on the. Before I even get into my personal opinion. I think that one of the things that I think a problem is for a larger audience for shows that are pods on pods, let's call them is that there are way too many of those that is sort of the snake eating its own situation.

[00:33:23] There are podcasts out there about how to launch a podcast and make a bunch of money. They're all these like snake oil type, go to our website to buy our ebook and sign up for our coaching class and this, that, and the other, and those pods on pods. Give other pods on pods, a horrible name. I

[00:33:43] Brendan: didn't know. I didn't get that.

[00:33:44] Didn't even cross my mind because you see the artwork for those things. So salesy and, and everything like that. I tune them out podcasts and yeah. So

[00:33:53] Dan: if you, yeah, if you have an interest in the world of podcasting, maybe you're thinking about starting your own. Maybe you just want to know more about this medium and you start searching on one of the sites or iTunes or whatever, and you accidentally.

[00:34:05] On one of those or maybe a second one, and then you realize, well, this is all crap. There's no good pods and pods and you move away. I think that happens way too much. And I bet that that does occur. And I think it damages those shows that are trying to bring a different perspective to the medium and to the industry.

[00:34:22] And so with my show, the podcast digest, what I've done. I told this to guests who have no idea who I am or what I do. I've always tried to say that my show is like the director's commentary for a podcast. Right? So back in the DVD and Blu-ray days before everything was streaming, you used to be able to watch director's commentary.

[00:34:40] And on my favorite movies, I would always watch the director's commentary because I found it so interesting. You know, what else? Went into that scene or how this happens, you know, you know, the one, I always say all the time, I'm a huge pulp fiction fan. And when I watched the director's commentary and learn that Tarantino actually filmed, you know, the dance scene and it was kind of calling out the moves with, uh, you know, in the, in the diner with Travolta and Thurman, you know, it's just super interesting to me about how that happened.

[00:35:08] So that was kind of the spirit in the, the approach that I take with my show is that if you're a huge fan of one of the, one of my guests in one of the shows, I want to tell you a story. Yeah, add to that. Uh, and I think that there is an audience for that. I think people are interested in that type of thing, because there are so many shows out there that do have super fans.

[00:35:28] So I think of my show as for the super fans of the other shows and try to give this as sort of a, um, you know, auxiliary material, for example, I will. I'll give you guys a scoop, uh, if you want it, uh, depending on, I just recorded a new episode of mine, um, that I talked with Madeline Baron and Samarra Freemark of in the dark.

[00:35:49] Oh, nice. And in the dark, in the dark season, two's finale is coming up next week, um, and relevant to when this is released, when we're recording. Um, and I decided that I was going to hold that interview until basically the day after the finale with the idea that it would be sort of. Partner listening to the, those who just completed season two of in the dark.

[00:36:11] Uh, so I think if, if you can add value on, uh, you know, with a pod on pod, that it can be something that a broader, more non fan audience is, you know, not just for the nerds about the industry, but for the nerds about the. Um, that you potentially may be having a guest on.

[00:36:31] Mark: So obviously you've talked about, uh, shows, uh, that this upcoming show, but, um, what else is in the pipeline for you?

[00:36:37] Dan: Yep. Episode 1 55. We'll be out of the week of the holiday, uh, here in the states, uh, the July 4th holiday, one episode, 1 55 will be out, uh, in terms of other. Probably not all that much, being a holiday week here in the states, other than likely a lot of listening. As I mentioned, I believe a new season of sleepovers coming out.

[00:36:55] I've got a lot of catching up to do. I just finished the west wing, actually watching all seven. So I'm, I'm listening now to all the podcasts, like two and a half of the west wing week. So I'll probably do some catching up with that as well. So, uh, lots of listening, a new episode and that's about my pod week.

[00:37:13] And if you want to find my show, the. or at pod digest on Twitter.