Chapter 5 - Janine Gilbert

Janine Gilbert talks about all things screenwriting! Maybe this episode should be called "Scene V," instead of "Chapter 5." 

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Emma: Behind every great film or TV show is a great script and great screenwriters, like Janine Gilbert, our guest today. Hey, Janine. Thanks for coming in today. Could you please tell me a little bit more about yourself?

Janine: Sure. So originally, I'm from California, moved around a lot as a child, settled here in Idaho. Currently, I teach writing at BYU-Idaho. As an undergraduate, I studied film, and I've always just been drawn to writing and teaching writing. Love working with students, and that's what I do now.

Emma: That is awesome. So why do you write?

Janine: That's a really tricky question. Anne Tyler says that she writes because she wanted to have more than one life, which I think is a wonderful answer. I don't know that I so much wanna have more than one life; I think writing's a great way to try and figure out the life that you're living. So for me, I think it's a wonderful way to explore and to grow and learn that whole process of writing, I think, helps you understand and empathize in ways that you can't really access any other way. And you're always... I mean, you inhabit other people's lives and their psyches, and you can ask questions and explore through writing in ways that you can't do, really, I think, in any other medium.

Emma: Did you try any other writing styles before you started doing your screenwriting?

Janine: I think I've written in pretty much every possible way. Right? Like, so as a child, I was writing, like, graphic novels and, you know, books and stories, and so that writing's always been a part of my life. But once I realized that you could actually write for film, then that became something that I really wanted to do. You know, it just caught my fancy. I was just... That ability to create. Film is this fusion of all the arts. It's visual, but there's also sound and dialogue. Everything that you kind of love in the arts comes together in a film, and so it's a very collaborative process. And so that really caught my attention.

Emma: How would you say that screenwriting is different than other forms of writing?

Janine: The main difference, I think, in screenwriting and other types of writing is that everything has to be externalized when you're writing for screen. So a novelist or a short-story writer, you know, they can kind of dip into people's thoughts, and they can tell you how they're feeling. But for film, everything has to be externalized. And so what you do is you create that emotional experience for the viewer rather than telling them kind of what characters... So everything has to be externalized, and I think that's something that's really different from film from any other medium.

Emma: Seems you have to be a little more concise sometimes.

Janine: It is. It's like poetry in that sense. Just really concentrated language to express what's happening in the scene. But, yeah, I think that's true.

Emma: Do you have any tips for writing good dialogue between characters?

Janine: I think writing good dialogue comes after you develop really great characters. So I think sometimes we focus in on dialogue, and it can be a way to explore and get to know characters. But ideally, the dialogue should come out naturally out of what a character wants and who they are and how they get what they want. And so when you have that really good character developed, then what they say will be authentic and true because it's coming out of what they want and what they're trying to achieve or the questions that they have or what they're seeking. And I think that's the best way to write authentic dialogue.

Emma: So if the way to write good dialogue is to write good characters, then how do you write good characters?

Janine: I think... I don't know. I think the best writing comes from the inside out, not from the outside in. So I think starting with someone with an interesting question or a problem or a conflict, that's how you unfold a good character. Because I think, like human beings, we grow, we develop as we face challenges, we meet obstacles, and that's what pushes us to change. And that's what we want really good characters to do, is to change and develop. So I think if you can create that that kind of setting, that atmosphere where a character who really wants something has to really take risks to get what they want, that pulls us in. That creates a really good character, a multidimensional character in a way. You're working again from the inside out. When that happens, and it's wonderful when it does happen, then you're following along. And, yes, you're still writing and you're making decisions, but you're also paying close attention and listening.

Emma: So you start with the conflict and the desire.

Janine: Yeah. Which is what the character wants is, like, the number one thing.

Emma: Mhmm.

Janine: You have to have a desire or nothing else happens.

Emma: That is so true. I think sometimes when I'm writing and I'm like, "oh, this is so boring." I'm like, "gotta throw in more conflict there."

Janine: Right. And then not even just throwing in the conflict, right? Because sometimes that can happen like, well, we'll have a chase scene or we'll have, you know, someone enter with a gun or some sort of external conflict. But the best conflict comes from those internal desires and needs of the character. That's what creates, I think, the best conflict.

Emma: I remember when I was in middle school, then I was writing a story, and they were getting from one point to the other. It was just point A to point B. And I thought, "if this was a book or a movie that I was consuming..." I didn't think that when I was in middle school. But, I thought, "it feels like they should be attacked right now." I had no reason for them to be attacked. So I just added this part where they just get attacked by these bandits and it just had nothing to do with the characters or the story. You're right. It has to be—it's not just conflict for conflict's sake.

Janine: Right. And the best conflict's created by characters. I mean, talk about, like, a well-developed character. I think one definition of a well-developed character is you could take that character and put them in any situation, and you would know what they would do and say just based on kind of who they are as human beings. So you take a well-drawn character, and that can be a test. And so you can think about well-drawn characters in novels that you've read or television shows that you've watched or films. You take that character and put them in an entirely new situation and just kind of let them loose and see, and they would create story or create conflict just as kind of part of who they are as human beings.

Emma: So you did screenwriting for Charly, right?

Janine: I did, yeah.

Emma: That's so cool. I actually have seen that movie.

Janine: You have? That's wonderful!

Emma: It made me cry. A lot.

Janine: That's often the reaction to that movie.

Emma: Yeah, and I was with my mom and my sister and I didn't want them to know that I was crying. So I remember just watching it and trying so hard not to cry. And then as soon as it was over, I just went to the bathroom and just sobbed.

Janine: Oh dear.

Emma: So it was... It was great. Very, very emotional, but...

Janine: Yeah.

Emma: In a good way. It made me cry in a good way.

Janine: Oh, that's great. I'm so glad to hear that.

Emma: So tell me a little bit more about the process of screenwriting for Charly, because that was based off of a book, wasn't it?

Janine: Yes. Jack Weyland's book, Charly.

Emma: So how do you incorporate your own creativity while also staying true to the book that it's based off of?

Janine: I think when you're adapting someone else's work, you do... What you're trying to do is figure out what the heart of that piece is. Like, what's the soul of that piece? And that's what you want to guard, and that's kind of your job is to make sure that you translate that to screen, that you deliver that for viewers so that what they love most about the characters in the original novel remains the same. So you're looking for, like, the spine of the story. What is it that the characters need or want? That becomes the essence of the story. And then once you figure out that spine, you can change events around that without doing damage to the original story. But you have to start with kind of that heart. So I think you're in a different position when you're adapting a story than when you're writing, say, your own original work. I don't think your job as writing an adapted screenplay is to write your own original work. I don't think it's... At least for me, I don't wanna treat it as raw material that I'm gonna take and then turn into something that is for me. But I do think it's every... You know, you love the story. You take that on for a reason, and your job is to try and help it move into another medium where more and more people can enjoy the same thing that you loved about it.

Emma: Well, you did a great job because I've actually also read the book Charly.

Janine: Thank you.

Emma: And I thought it stayed very true to the original while still giving, I don't know, more of a visual imagination to it.

Janine: Oh, thank you.

Emma: Really good. Do you have a favorite project that you've worked on?

Janine: That's really a tricky question. I mean, on one hand, it's whatever project I'm currently working on is kind of my favorite because that's where I'm kind of focused. But Charly was a wonderful experience. I mean, that was one of the first experiences I've had had with feature-film writing, and so that was... I learned so much through that process and through the process of revision. And I worked really talented and collaborated with really talented people who had clear visions and taught me a great deal in the process. So that was remarkable. Wonderful actors that bring those characters to life. So that was a wonderful experience. I got to collaborate on campus with actors and directors for a stage play, and that was a lot of fun. I mean, that wasn't writing for screen, but for stage. And so to go through that process, I thought, was incredible. But, yeah, every project, I think anytime that you get to work with other talented people and you're working towards a common goal, it can be really transformative. So, yeah, I think I've pretty much enjoyed everything I've done.

Emma: How does it feel to see your work on the screen or on the stage?

Janine: It's pretty humbling, but also really exciting. I think particularly with film because it's so collaborative. You don't make all the decisions. And so there are surprises along the way, things that turned out differently than you may have imagined them, but oftentimes so much better because people bring all of their skills and talents into that process. You think, "wow. This wouldn't have been nearly as good if we hadn't had all these other wonderful people participating." So in a way, it's humbling, but it's also really exciting to hear, you know, really talented actors say your lines. Certainly, they wouldn't be any good if I was doing the acting. But... So it's so great to see them kind of embody those characters and bring them to life. There's really nothing like it. And then the other side of that is watching an audience react to that. It's so fun just to see all the varied reactions to what they see on screen and to that story and to those characters.

Emma: Like crying their eyes out.

Janine: In the case of Charly, yes, often tears came.

Emma: When I was emailing you, asking if you would come be on the podcast, we were talking about doing a reading and you said that "screenplays are more blueprints for collaboration and production," and that really caught my interest. I wondered if you could if we could delve into that a little bit.

Janine: Alright. So when you when you write a screenplay, you really are creating this this kind of blueprint that everyone who collaborates on the film uses, from people who schedule the film to break down the budget, to actors who pull out their lines, set designers... Everything's pulled from that kind of blueprint, and "blueprint" might not be the right term. It's what sparks the imagination of everyone working on the project, but it's kind of technical too. It's not meant to be read like a short story is meant to be read. But I also don't wanna give it short shrift. Like, you need to write a screenplay so you actually get pulled into the story. You want someone who reads a screenplay to have the a similar experience to what they would have if they were in the theater, and they're kinda watching the story unfold in front of them. But it's not written like a short story or a play. So there's technical aspects to it. There's dialogue like a stage play. And so to read it aloud, unless you have, like, a reader's theater where people take parts and read different dialogue and you have someone else reading action, it doesn't really translate much, I don't think, to radio so much as it does for the visual medium.

Emma: That would be really tricky. I didn't even think about that, just doing all the different voices and the stage directions.

Janine: Yeah, you definitely don't want me to do that.

Emma: So when you are writing a scene, how do you know where to start your scene and when you should end it?

Janine: Yeah. So, I mean, I think the short answer to that is you start late and leave early is kind of like the... probably the axiom that you would hear most often. So you wanna start into the scene when something's already going on is usually what you notice. You kind of... Things are already in motion. And we're really you know, as viewers, we've seen so much television and so much film that we're used to that. And we can drop into a scene and we don't get lost. We don't find it confusing. So you wanna drop in late. And then by leaving early, it's not so much that you're leaving without a button to the scene or an end to the scene, but you're leaving us kind of hooked into the next scene. I mean, that that... It's one thing with drama that's different than life. In life, things happen and they may not be connected in a causal relationship. But in story, everything is related with a causal relationship. And so this happens, and because this happens, then this next thing happens. And because that happens, the next thing happens. And so what you're doing is you're almost creating this this kind of stream or this connection from this scene to what's coming next, this anticipation. And so that's what you want. You want viewers on the edge of their seat waiting to see what comes next after the end of the last scene. So, yeah, I guess enter late. Leave early.

Emma: That seems like it applies to more than just screenwriting.

Janine: Yeah. I think you could apply it to novel writing and short-story writing, anything that has scenes.

Emma: Yeah. Are there any other ways that you see screenwriting help you in other forms of writing?

Janine: I think, for example, students who study screenwriting who might be more interested in writing novels or short stories, I think the one thing that can it can really do for them is it does push them to externalize emotion and to show us what's happening rather than relying on this kind of internal monologue. So it can be tempting just to dive into a character's head and then tell us what they're feeling or what they're thinking. And what screenwriting kind of forces you to do is create a discipline so that we actually kind of externalize that and see it. And I think it makes it more rich for even someone reading a novel or a short story to actually build it out. I mean, the axiom is show, don't tell. I would say film writing really pushes you to develop those muscles that you need as a writer to show instead of tell.

Emma: Going back to Charly, I know I talked a lot about how sad it was, but it was also really funny too. It made me laugh aloud several times.

Janine: I'm so glad.

Emma: So how do you balance that with humor and then also the deeper, sadder emotions?

Janine: I don't know. At least for me, I think it's just a part of the natural rhythm of storytelling. I don't set out and say, "well, something sad just happened, so now something funny has to happen." I think all of that should be a natural outgrowth of who your characters are, how they deal with difficulty. Do they deflect it? Do they bring in humor? I don't know. For me, it should be, like, more of a natural outgrowth of who the characters are, and you have a good ensemble cast, and they're not all the same kinds of characters. And so like in life, you'll have that rich variety. And in terms of just the natural rhythm of storytelling, I probably try not to be too analytical about that. I don't—I've never thought, "oh, that was funny, so now we have to do something sad." That, I haven't thought about. But I don't... There might be writers out there who do. It's just not something I've thought a lot about.

Emma: That makes a lot of sense. When I was in middle school, my cousin and I were trying to write a movie. And it was—

Janine: Wonderful.

Emma: Yeah. it was supposed to be a comedy about this lady who was about to get engaged and then her fiancé dies and then he's, like, haunting her, but it was supposed to be really funny. And then when we actually went to film it with our little, you know, small cameras, it turned out so dramatic. It just... And so I guess it kind of was a comedy in a way, but not in the way that we intended it.

Janine: Not in the way that you intended it to be. Comedy is always tough. You almost have to try comedy out to see if it will land, and it won't land with everyone. But I've had that experience, too, where I've written a draft and someone said, "I thought you said this was a comedy. This is not.. this is..." So I—my hat's off to people who write comedy for a living. It's incredibly difficult. But yeah. I'm grateful that they do.

Emma: Me too. We all need a little more laughter in the world.

Janine: That's right.

Emma: Do you have a project that was the most challenging for you to work on?

Janine: That's a really interesting question. Here's the thing—I think every project is challenging. I think writing is problem solving. So even if you successfully write one thing, when you take on your next project, you'll find it almost feels like you forgotten all of the things you know how to do, which is actually inaccurate. But I think every time you struggle with a new story, you struggle with new story problems and issues. And I think one difference with experience is that you have the faith that you'll be able to eventually solve the problem, and the story will work. But I think every story I've ever written has had its own challenges. And I think that's wonderful, though, because then you're growing in new ways and you're learning new things. So, yes. I mean, I definitely gone through bouts of really having difficulty writing and other things come more easily, but I think that's a natural part of the process.

Emma: Just gotta keep persevering.

Janine: Yeah. I do think that that's part of it, is you just need to keep writing. I mean, one of my favorite sayings, I'm trying... I can't remember who the novelist was, so I apologize for that. But he talked about trusting the process, and I think that's really key for any writer is just to trust the process, that if you put in the time and you're writing and you're working, that eventually, right, things will gel. Right? Things will work out. So, yeah, I think that's key.

Emma: I remember hearing once, "what makes a writer is that they actually write." Because so many people are like, "oh, I have this idea." But the people who actually sit down and write it and keep at it, those are the ones who are writers.

Janine: Right. And just the process of writing itself separated from publication, right? So there's all sorts of things I've written that have never made it to screen, and yet I still value those experiences. I really think writing is one thing that it's the actual process of doing it that's really, really valuable. And, hopefully, that's, I think, what a lot of writers recognize is it's the writing itself that's valuable... And grateful for all the results, but the process itself, I think, is, yeah, is what makes it all worth it.

Emma: That's a relief to hear because as a struggling writer, it's good to hear that you just gotta keep going.

Janine: Absolutely.

Emma: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about regarding the screenwriting or just writing in general?

Janine: You know, I just... I would encourage people to write. And, I think one of the greatest things that keeps us from writing is fear or, you know, fear of failure or fear of maybe not meeting our own expectations. But writing in itself is so valuable. Akiva Goldsman, he once said, and I'm gonna butcher this, but I'm paraphrasing it. But he said, you know, "I was not the most talented writer in college, but I had some talent, and I persevered, and I was stubborn." And he said, "I'm just the one who's still writing." And I just think we never wanna shut the door on something that can be so fulfilling and nurturing in life as writing is. So I would just say if you're interested in writing, if that's something that feeds your soul, you should definitely do it. And then share it with others because, again, I read poetry, I read short stories, and I'm so grateful for people who have taken the time and developed their talents and then decided to share it with the rest of us. We can't have too many writers in the world, I don't think.

Emma: Sometimes I hear people say, "oh, I would love to write, but I'm just not creative enough." So what would you say to that?

Janine: Oh, I would say, if you have questions, if you have concerns, if you've ever faced any then you definitely have a story to tell. And if for no one else than for yourself, find the answers to those questions, delve into those stories that you have inside of you. Yeah, I don't think you have to have been born with any particular talent to express yourself in writing, and you ought to do it. Definitely have a voice that should be heard. You're the only one who can write what you can write.

Emma: Now I wanna go home and write.

Janine: Excellent. I hope you do.

Emma: How do you get started with your screenwriting?

Janine: Wow. So that is, you know, the million dollar question or hundred thousand dollar question. Every answer to that question is different. I've never heard a writer tell the same story in terms of how they started. And in terms of, like, Hollywood success, I'm more on the independent kind of film side of things. I'm not working in LA or New York by any stretch of the imagination. So I think it... For everyone, it's different, and you just kinda have to be open for opportunities. So I would say two things. I would say, one, make sure that you're writing a lot before you start sending things out, so you have several things—particularly for screenwriting, because let's say you have this really wonderful script, but someone's not interested in making that script. But they recognize you're a good writer, they'll say, "well, what else do you have?" And if you don't have anything else, if you haven't done any other writing, that makes it fairly difficult. So I would do a lot of writing. And I would also start, you know, making relationships with people around you who also wanna do similar work. It is true. Networking, I don't think is the right word. But building relationships with other people who wanna tell stories, the same types of stories that you wanna tell, is really what makes all the difference. I've collaborated with the same people for years and years, and I think they are amazing, and I love to work with them. So I think being open to those types of opportunities is great. In terms of is there some place to send a resume... really not. It's really about trying all sorts of things, being persistent, writing quality work. And I think a lot of people would say, "hey, if you're writing really quality work, we'll find you." I think that can be true as well. But it's also true that sometimes doors don't open simply because it's just not a good fit. At a certain point, it's not about the quality of the work. It's just, is it a good fit? Is it what I wanna make right now? And so I would also wouldn't be discouraged if you don't find immediate success. It's kind of a rambling answer. But, yeah, there's not, like, one way to get started.

Emma: Talking on collaboration, is it ever frustrating? Because you talked about how wonderful it is to work with these people. Is it a little frustrating sometimes too?

Janine: Yeah, I think in any relationship, right, there can be friction in collaboration. But I think being teachable, listening, identifying a common goal... The people I love to collaborate with most, they're such good communicators, and they're really supportive. And I think all of those are the hallmarks of good people that you wanna work with.

Emma: How many drafts do you think it takes you until you have a product that maybe isn't complete, but that you're satisfied with?

Janine: I would say revision is what really separates, say, a writer from a professional writer. So—and I'm not the only one that said that. I've heard that said quite often. It's just one thing, like, that that first draft is just a zero draft. So it might start... It really depends on the project, but... If I'm adapting something or if it's my own ideas, but it might start just by gathering, like, raw materials, like scenes, ideas, images, snatches of dialogue. You know, whatever starts to form together to create a story. And then I might card it. So I'll break it down into cards of scenes. And initially, I might gather a lot of cards, and then I'll just start to try and organize them. How would this fit in a story? And depending on if it's for, you know, a feature film or for television, I might look for, like, act breaks. Like, where are the breaks in each act? And once I start getting to that point, I'll go through that. That process goes through several revisions, several revisions. And then from there, I might create an outline, and then from there, I'll draft and hopefully just draft quickly. Although sometimes it can take more time. And then that's like the zero draft. Then I'll go through several passes of that draft starting with big story questions like, "is the plot working? Are the characters working?" Start there, and then hone in on things like dialogue and description and sharpening the writing and everything that goes along with that. But it's more like series of revisions. So there might be one version of the screenplay that might go through, you know, seven, ten revisions, and then it'll make a big change, and then it'll go through seven or ten more revisions. But, yeah, I don't have a set number, but it's a lot. It takes a lot of revisions to get it to the point where I'm happy with it.

Emma: That's cool to think that when you first start out to write something, it doesn't have to be the final draft—it shouldn't be the final draft. You're just doing the work for your future self to go back and revise it.

Janine: Right. No, it's just the raw materials. That's just the starting point. All the writing happens in revision, in my experience.

Emma: I liked what you were saying about making the cards. When I was writing essays in college, I would always organize them with sticky notes. So I'd have, like, this idea here and this idea is just to organize my ideas and just my desk was covered in sticky notes. And then that way I can move them around, put them where they need to be. So

Janine: Yeah, absolutely.

Emma: That's cool to see the interconnections of different types of writing. Thank you so much for coming in.

Janine: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It's great to be here.

Thank you for traveling with us. Next stop: your work of art. Poetry, fiction, creative nonfiction, you name it. Email us at [e-mail]. Submission guidelines are not shy; they can be found in the podcast description. The Story Station, hosted by Emma, is a production of Riverbend Media Group.