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Album 5 Track 3 - What's Poppin? Our Take on Rihanna, Mr. Irrelevant, & Padded Impressions
You all enjoyed our "snackable content," so we brought it back for another round!
Topics Featured:
Rihanna, The Brand.
Mr. Irrelevant...Decided He Is Relevant
Digital Metrics. Are impressions the right metric to be tracking?
Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds.
Back at you with a modified version of the Brands, Beats, and Bytes podcast. One of our favorite segments to do is What's Popping. Seems to work pretty well with our guests. Y'all seem to be feeling it a little bit, so we're gonna do another just What's Popping episode and this time as you all may have heard from our first, what's pop and drop is you not only get Larry and me. You get our crack producer. None other than our business partner, Jeff Shirley, also on the mic. So LT, you wanna set this thing up for us, brother?
LT: Yes. Isn't it great to have Jeff on. Jeff Loving having doing this, bro.
JS: Enjoying it. Enjoying it.
DC: Well, I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad you do, Larry
LT: See, that's, we're starting, we're starting great already, so...
DC: Yes, we are.
LT: Yeah. So, D, as a reminder for our new listeners, What's Popping it is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discuss. So I think Jeff led off last time, so D, you want to take the mic?
DC: I do, I do, LT. Alright, Jeff and Larry, here's what's popping for me. NFL, halftime shows, NFL, halftime shows and our girl Riri. So let's go halftime shows. Now, most of us remember, at least I think 2004, because that was a year where, um, uh, the Janet Jackson, Justin Timberlake thing went down in Super Bowls.
Now, for those of you Brand Nerds who don't know what that what I mean by that, go look it up; but I'm gonna come back to that in a moment. But going to to Rihanna um, Rihanna has released, uh, three studio albums since 2011, 2011 through 2016. In 2011, it was Talk That Talk, it went three times platinum, and, uh, 2012 she released Unapologetic. That also went three times Platinum. And then in 2016, she released an album called Anti and that went three times platinum. So by my math, that's nine times platinum, 2011 through 2016. Now that's only three album releases. She has a total of eight studio releases, and she's got some remixed albums as well.
But she was doing really good when it comes to her music. She has not released, Larry and Jeff, another album since 2016. Why is that? This is where the brand comes into play. In 2017, she did a 50/50 joint venture for her brand, her cosmetics brand, uh, and actually even beyond cosmetic. Called Fenty. So this is Rihanna's brand, Fenty, F E N T Y.
Those of you all who are in Rihanna's Navy, I know you all may be getting upset that I have to spell this, but not everybody's in RiRi's Navy, so I'm spelling it out. F e n t y. So she did this, uh, 50/50 deal with L V M H. Louis Vuitton, Möet Hennessy. So, uh, this is Bernard Arnault's company. He's like maybe the second richest man in the world.
Just depends on what the stocks are. He may be number one right now. This was in 2017. Okay? This is why I believe that Rihanna has not released another album. She doesn't need to release another album. She set up the brand called Fenty. Now she herself was already a brand. Now Rihanna has poured that equity into the, to the Fenty brand.
So that that's what she did. So she comes back, through another brand franchise with a single in October of last year, 2022. It was Lift Me Up. So this was one of the tracks for the, the new installment of the Wakanda Black Panther franchise. Yes. So this is the first movie, as you guys know, back after the, uh, passing Rest In Power of Chadwick Bozeman.
So everyone's looking at this film like, whoa, what's happen? And she picks this film and this single to come back. Now again, another brand. Okay. Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, another brand. That's what she does. And so now that's in October. Now in February, she's going to be the halftime performer at the Super Bowl.
And by the way, this year, first time, um, that Apple Music is the, um, at, at Apple and Apple Music, that they are the, the sponsors. Here's what's popping for me, Larry and Jeff. This entrepreneur is strategic with her branding. Step one, build my brand as an artist. Step two, extend that equity into another brand called Fenty.
Step three, when I come back musically, which is where I establish my brand, I will come back with a single compared with another brand called Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. And then step four, when I do perform again after I drop a single and I haven't dropped a single since 20, 20 16, now drop, Lift Me Up. I am going to use that as a, as a way to now be in another brand. Maybe one of the biggest brands in the world. NFL Super Bowl where more eyes are on that than any single event. So what's popping for me is the brilliance of Rihanna as a brand manager, and I'm also, Brand Nerds, curious about what's coming next, what's popping for me?
Your thoughts, gentlemen?
LT: Oh, Jeff, you wanna take go first?
JS: Yeah, let, let me go first. Uh, uh, she has done a brilliant job of answering a, a positioning question and that is: how do you balance the opportunities for brand leveraging without the possible dilution of clarity of positioning? How do you balance that?
And she is the definition of balancing that equation. It's just fantastic. It's fantastic. Yes. Well,
DC: Jeff, you got a little deep, you got a little deep on this, Jeff, but I think I kept up with, but that's, that's a great, can you repeat the question again, Jeff? Yeah, this is a good point. Repeat the question again.
JS: How do you, yeah. How do you balance the opportunities for brand leveraging against the possible dilution of clarity of positioning? So how do you decide what you're gonna do and what you're not gonna do? Is it simply what it's saying? Right. And she has hit a home run in every sense.
Right. Yeah.
LT: Mm-hmm. . So what Jeff is saying, I think is she knows her brand and because she knows her brand so well, it's very easy to then, uh, partner with other brands, that's, that's a way that's going to fully leverage her brand and, and maximize the opportunity for everyone involved.
JS: Mm, exactly. She, and, and we use this example in our workshop as you know, she didn't do like Colgate and try to go from what they're known for, which is oral care and introduce a frozen food. That's a bad example. Yeah. Of that is a bad example. Your brain. So she's done a great that. She's done a great job with that and I love it. Yeah,
LT: So I love what Jeff said. I'll also add this because she hasn't been out with a lot of content in terms of music recently. Yes. D, you put it perfectly. People are yearning for it. The, the, you know mm-hmm. , she, she's building in the, uh, the demand because the supply is low. Right. Especially recently. And so mm-hmm. , there's, uh, there's an anticipation that she's managed in an incredible way. And that single was, you know, for the, for the second Black Panther movie was in, was incredible. I mean, certainly when you're watching that movie, you know, a lot of times music will take you through that, that single added to the enjoyment of that movie.
Man, it was an incredible song. It did that she delivered us. Right? So you want more, I think of, you know, who I think about who didn't do this purposely is Sade. Sade, you know, is older and, but went away for a long time. And there's this mystery about Sade that she built in. Mm-hmm. . And by the way, she didn't do this on purpose.
I read a long article, uh, I think it was in Esquire, where she went and raised her kids. And now her kids are grown up. Oh. And now she's coming back and doing concerts. But there's this mystery about her that she built in.
DC: Ah, yeah.
LT: That she went away for a longer time, but mm-hmm. leave people wanting for more.
And if you, if, if you set up, set yourself, your brand up for people wanting for more, that's a great thing.
JS: Yep.
DC: Agreed. Agreed.
LT: Anything else d you want to add? Should we go to, Should we go to the next?
DC: No more to add. No more to add. Great discussion.
JS: Yeah.
LT: All right. Shall I go next, gentlemen?
JS: Yes.
DC: All right, let's do it.
LT: Okay, so here's mine. So, okay, Jens, we, as we know, we're in the throes of the NFL playoffs, and something got me to thinking about an overarching point I thought would be good for us to discuss and would be good for the brand nerd to hear.
So do the following names mean anything to. Chad Kelly, Trey Quinn, Caleb Wilson, Tay Crowder, Grant Stewart. Do those names mean anything to you?
JS: No.
LT: Okay.
DC: Not to me.
LT: Okay. I didn't think so. It means nothing. So how about if I add the name Brock Purdy? Does that? Does by adding him to that list. Does that name mean, does that list now mean something to.
DC: It does. They must all be Mr. Irrelevance.
LT: Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Those are the five Mr. Irrelevance before Brock Purdy in 2022. So Brand Nerds, Mr. Irrelevant, as DC knows what it is. And Jeff, I know you know too, Mr. Irrelevant represents the last person selected in the NFL draft and every year the only other person on this list, going back to 1976, by the way, when somebody sort of did this as a joke.
The only other person on that list, I'm telling you and anyone would recognize would be longtime kicker Ryan Succop who was uh, Mr. Irrelevant in '09 and is still kicking today. So for those of you who don't know, Brock Purdy. What, who, who he is and what his, what he's about. He is the current, very successful starting rookie quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, and looks like he will have a very successful career as a quarterback in the NFL.
The reason why I'm raising this is, yes, it is topical, but more important Brand Nerds, is you never know when your chance to do something in whatever field of endeavor. And, and again, if you're listening to this probably marketing, you never know when your, your chance. May actually happen, and like Brock Purdy, where luck of opportunity meets preparation and ultimately real success Brand Nerds, please ask yourself, are you prepared like Brock Purdy was and is to seize the opportunity if it comes your way.
DC: No, that's good, Jeff.
JS: Yeah, no, I, I, I love that and it, and it, and it has me rooting. Um, Brock Purdy to win. Just be, just because of that. It's, it's such a great story. And he's, what, 7 and 0 is that right? Do I have that right LT?
LT: Yeah. It's actually even more, I think it's more than that now with the le last win against, how about them cowboys?
JS: Yeah. It's, it's, it's an amazing story and I, and I, and I love what you're saying, LT, it's like, be ready if you are an you, if you an Associate Brand Manager and your, your brand manager, all of a sudden leads, they're gonna lean on you to run the brand that's be ready to, that's right. Step and run the brand.
LT: That's exactly right Jeff.
DC: I'm gonna take a brand, uh, titling and name angle at this one. Mm-hmm. , we talk about this often, gents, and that is positioning happens just like she happens. Either you position yourself or the market will gladly position you.
LT: Yep.
DC: Now, Brock Purdy represents, is the difference between being given a brand, which is Mr. Irelevant, that's a way of branding that pick.
LT: Yep.
DC: Not accepting that positioning and turning it into something that works for his brand, which is now he is Mr. Relevant in, in, in San Francisco. So I would say to the Brand Nerds, Be careful of how others position you in name and title, and if you don't necessarily like it, change it or be proactive in the first place as to what your brand is going to be known as. You as a human.
That's my takeaway.
LT: That's a huge point, D and I think where you're going to the real world is sometimes you may have started on the bottom. You know, we all, we all start on the bottom at some. And in some organizations, when you start at, again, let's use marketing as a an Assistant Brand Manager. , uh mm-hmm. they, they're the folks in the, in the upper stratosphere of that organization might always look at you that way. Right? So after five years, you might have to go somewhere else to really milk your hay, and that's what you're really saying is you're not mm-hmm. , uh, if you're proactive about that, about your brand and your positioning, you might realize that sometimes you need to go elsewhere.
Um, right.
DC: Absolutely. Absolutely.
LT: And I wanna add a little thing about Brock Purdy. He started 46 games as a college quarter. Wow. Like this dude was a very good college quarterback. Most people don't know that and he put in the time and, and it's interesting, everybody around the Niners has have said that he was a third string guy, but that he has an air of confidence about him that mm-hmm. to your point, D, some people would've been saddled with a Mr. Irrelevant. Let's face it, other than Ryan Succop, and kickers don't really matter in this sense. No one's ever done anything, but he didn't look at it that way. He might have had the last chance, but he had a chance, and boom, he did. All of a sudden, the two quarterbacks in front of him get hurt, and now he's with one of the best teams in the NFL and he's seizing the opportunity and he's changed his life.
So how are you Brand Nerds gonna be ready for that call whenever it could happen tomorrow, it might happen three years from now, but you gotta do the prep to be.
JS: That's right. What, what? What's the old saying? If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.
DC: Ah, that's right, Jeff.
LT: Love that. That's right. Jay, that's a great segue.
I think that's great. Jeff, you want to go? Yes.
JS: Course. My subject is digital marketing metrics. Mm-hmm. , and my comment is this, impressions is the wrong metric for digital marketing. Let me, I've seen too many digital agencies only communicate impressions as a metric. They say it's gonna cost this and you're gonna get this many impressions.
So let's, let's kind of back up on impressions, right? Impressions is how many people you're gonna reach and how often you're gonna reach 'em, as we call it, reach, time, frequency. Okay? So digital agency comes to you and they say your media plan will get 1 million impressions. And they don't break down reach, reach and frequency.
You have the wrong metric. Why? Well, let me exaggerate to make a point. Is one person going to see that ad 1 million times or 1 million people gonna see that ad one time. Both are ineffective. The true metric is the actual breakdown of the impression equation. So you should always know how many unique consumers are reached that will fit that, that, that fit in your target that you're reaching, and the frequency, how many times you're gonna reach 'em.
So now going back to that 1 million impressions, what the agency should have said was, you're going to reach 125,000 households, six to eight times. Now I know how effective my campaign is and I'm spending the right dollars. Um, so question. My fellow doctors. Why do some digital agencies only communicate impressions?
LT: Hmm. D, you wanna take the stab at that or shall I?
DC: You, you, you, you go first, brother. Go ahead. All right.
LT: I think, Jeff, it's, it's goes back to people are lazy in the sense that that's what everyone's has always done, right? Mm-hmm. like so that people go back to, well, sort of the, uh, equation that people have always leaned on.
And the reality is that if you go back to the early 20th century from newspapers, magazine ads, to radio, then of course to television, which, which all impacts. Like, that's where impressions are built from. That's what people are used to. So it, it goes forward. And the reality is that none of those media vehicles could you actually have attribution to, whereas in digital marketing, it feels like the best digital marketers, and again, you know, Brand Nerds out there very clear. You, you've heard Specificity ads. One of the things that Specificity does is they have an attribution model where they can actually, they don't talk, they don't talk about impressions because they can actually show what the, uh, what the advertising you do through Specificity actually does for your business, specifically.
So that's what I think the answer is. Jeff.
JS: Love it.
DC: The my daughter's. Um, When they were younger, um, middle school, elementary school, in some cases high school, uh, we would go to what's called the PTA meeting. So it's Parent Teacher Association, you know, PTA meetings and you're, there're with other, uh, parents and with teachers talking about what happens with, uh, the school and, uh, and the, and the children and your child.
I wanna go to that, uh, that those three letters, PTA, business is really simple, but we try to complicate it. So let's, let's use this PTA. Three different areas of metrics define any business. The "p" - penetration. How deeply or not deeply are you penetrated in the market? So that's the market size. Transacaction. How many transactions are happening amongst that market? So this is where you get into frequency, Jeff and Larry. And then A is amount. So that is what amount are they buying or consuming or looking at per transaction. That's it. That's all it. Market penetration, transaction, and amount. So to answer your question, why do so many agencies do this?
Is because in the penetration area is a, is a marketing metric connected to that called brand awareness. And so I think what happens with many clients of these agencies is they're seduced by how many people are aware of my brand, which is a great metrics. So how many people in the market this penetration, how do I get penetration?
They have to be aware of my brand. Mm-hmm. The issue, I believe Jeff and Larry is that. If that is what you become enamored with awareness, and this is a critical, uh, metric, and you don't figure out this transaction piece, which is like how many times you need to hit people to get them to make a transaction, and then how much will they buy per transaction?
Then you're kind of sitting on like, a stool with one leg.
JS: That's right.
DC: And, and that's called a pogo stick people. That's not a stool. So that's why I believe, uh, some agencies may do that and why some clients may buy that.
JS: Okay.
LT: I think you're a hundred percent right. And it goes back to that. They don't want to be responsible for the ultimate purchase going down all the way down the funnel to use mm-hmm. a marketing lingo where, you know, marketing funnel. And so they don't want to have that attribution because the em that you could find out the emperor has no clothes. Yeah,
DC: you could, you you could find that out and the, and the CFO will be all up in the CMOs hein parts. That's right. .
JS: So, I, I didn't wanna color why I brought this up, but let me tell you why I, I, this, this hit me.
DC: Oh. Oh, he's, he's holding back on this, uh,
LT: yeah, go ahead Jeff. What's up with that?
JS: So, um, you know, I use Smart News. Smart News App is great. App tells you the relevant, relevant information you want to do. I was on that app and over the course of the day, I got hit with an IHOP ad 15, 20 times.
LT: Wow.
DC: Oh, wow.
JS: And, and I'm talking about like, if I, if I, if I hit my finger wrong, the damn ad would pop up.
I did this, I did this crap 15 or 20 times. Wow. For the digital agency, because they're not showing, um, how many people they, it adds to the impressions and helps them hit their impression numbers. Yes. So my reason is a little bit cynical. What we do know is, You need to hit someone with a digital ad six to eight times for them to either respond or not.
Once you hit that eighth time, they should come off your list and you find new people to talk to. Okay? Mm-hmm. So when you use impressions, it makes sure dollars sound bigger than they are, right? Mm-hmm. , so I think they do it because of the money.
LT: It's clearly Ah, oh, that's good. Good. Yeah. It's clearly just, I can justify.
Yeah. Right. You could say, oh, I, I delivered it. Whatever. The millions of impressions and you, and, and that's your 15, 20 impressions are built into that number, and what they're not measuring is how much that pissed you off.
JS: Exactly. How much it pissed me off, and how many people did I actually talk to, right. And, and we won't even go to targeting. We'll talk about that to some other time of how digital. But, but yeah, that's, that's my reason. It's, it's, it gives them an opportunity to pad the numbers and charge more. I know it's very cynical, but I believe that, right.
LT: Think you're right.
DC: Jay, a question for you. Uh, what are your breakfast out of home eating destinations?
JS: Um, not many, but it's usually a, a brunch spot. It ain't IHOP.
DC: It's not IHOP is it Dennys?
JS: No, it's not Denny's. Great. Oh, D I love where you're going. Nope. If, if I grab something out more times than not, it's a fast food like McDonald's or Burger King for breakfast because I'm, I'm rush. I'm on the go, but no, it's not. I can, the last time I been to IHOP.
DC: I'm trying to figure out how you became a part of that pool in the first place to be served that ad.
JS: Yeah, that, that's a great question. I don't know if it was some geotargeting crap. Yeah. IHOP wasn't thinking about 'em. That's why geotargeting, yeah. You need to understand how that works to understand if it's, if it's right for you. I, I don't know, but, but I mean, I was blasted. Ah,
yeah. Wow. Very interesting. Okay. Very nice. I almost, I almost went on LinkedIn to send the CMO a message. Right. Say, yo, whoever your agency is, you need to holler at 'em. .
DC: You should do that. Jeff. You you should do that. Yeah. I think
JS: you, you should do that. I'm gonna do that.
Yeah,
DC: you should. Yeah. Do that today. I mean, we, we wouldn't want to know that if that was, if that were happening. We are running up back in our days running brands. We'd want to know that. That's right. That's good. Okay. Nice one.
LT: I think that's a wrap. Jenz, we good? It's a wrap. I'm good. All right. Thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats and Bytes, recorded virtually on Zoom in a production of KZSU Stanford 90.1 FM Radio and worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That's right. And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share with your friends and family and everyone else. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.